Mercy, Oneness, and the Inner Path: A Conversation with Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi

In this luminous episode, Dr. Habib sits down with renowned Sufi teacher and author Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi for a conversation that moves from the streets of Cairo to the heart of Jerusalem, from the inner meaning of la ilaha illallah to the healing language of nature.

With profound clarity and gentleness, Fawzia shares:

• Her early spiritual awakening and the moment that changed her life
• The inner essence of unity and how to live la ilaha illallah beyond dogma
• How mercy (rahmah) becomes the force that transforms ego into universal consciousness
• The role of nature as the first book of revelation
• How to balance religion and spirituality – outer knowledge of religion and inner experience of spirituality, of being with God
• The Sufi understanding of adab, respectful presence, and how to respond to a culture of increasing disrespect
• What it means to stand for justice, protect the vulnerable, and hold even those who harm others within the one human family

Whether you’re grounded in a religious tradition or exploring spirituality with curiosity, this episode invites you into a deeper way of seeing—one that honors multiplicity while revealing the oneness beneath it.

May this conversation help you return to your heart, soften into compassion, and remember the light that lives in you. 

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 26

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi

Title: Mercy, Oneness, and the Inner Path: A Conversation with Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi

Description: In this luminous episode, Dr. Habib sits down with renowned Sufi teacher and author Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi for a conversation that moves from the streets of Cairo to the heart of Jerusalem, from the inner meaning of la ilaha illallah to the healing language of nature.

With profound clarity and gentleness, Fawzia shares:

• Her early spiritual awakening and the moment that changed her life
• The inner essence of unity and how to live la ilaha illallah beyond dogma
• How mercy (rahmah) becomes the force that transforms ego into universal consciousness
• The role of nature as the first book of revelation
• How to balance religion and spirituality – outer knowledge of religion and inner experience of spirituality, of being with God
• The Sufi understanding of adab, respectful presence, and how to respond to a culture of increasing disrespect
• What it means to stand for justice, protect the vulnerable, and hold even those who harm others within the one human family

Whether you’re grounded in a religious tradition or exploring spirituality with curiosity, this episode invites you into a deeper way of seeing—one that honors multiplicity while revealing the oneness beneath it.

May this conversation help you return to your heart, soften into compassion, and remember the light that lives in you.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher Power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to the Source, to the light that each of us carry within. I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Dr. Rosina Fawzia Al-Rawi was born in Baghdad and spent her childhood in Iraq and Lebanon. She holds a PhD in Islamic Studies, and she has published several books, including 

·         Midnight Tales: A Woman's Journey Through the Middle East, 

·         Grandmother's Secrets: The Ancient Rituals and Healing Power of Belly Dancing,

·         Divine Names: The 99 Healing Names of the One Love, and 

·         The Call of Allah: A Companion to the Holy Month of Ramadan.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Fawzia and her work, please visit https://www.fawzia-al-rawi.com/. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Fawzia, welcome, thank you for being here.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If you would, please introduce yourself to our listeners by way of telling us a little bit of your spiritual story.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Well, thank you again, Habib, for your invitation.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: My spiritual story was actually, a very… a simple one.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I remember… I remember I was, 20, 21, 22 years old, and I was studying Arabic and in Egypt at the University of Cairo.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And I was walking, and I do have to… excuse me… I have a cold, so I'm going to cough a few times.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: No problem.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And I was walking through the streets of Cairo and while I was walking, I passed by an old man sitting on the ground.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And he had a box.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And on that box, he had a teapot and one cup.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And he was selling tea to the people who were passing.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And while I was passing by, a young man was running.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And while he was running he… he went against the box, and the box fell, and the glass broke.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And the young man didn't even notice and continued running.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And in that moment, this old man stood up, bent very slowly and carefully to the cup.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Sorry. And the only thing he said was, “Alhamdulillah.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Praise Be God.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And in that moment -- and if you know Cairo, you know it is a very crowded city. In that moment, everything stopped.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I had the feeling that I was entering into another space.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: There was no sound, there was no movement.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: There was only this -- alhamdulillah.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Praise be Allah. Praise be God. That came from that man who, in that moment, has lost the only thing he had to have to get an income from.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And the only thing that came out of him was that, alhamdulillah.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And this moment, where everything stopped, and I just could feel the breathing of this praise of this old man changed my whole life.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And with that experience, my spiritual path started.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So it's a very simple story.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it included going to Jerusalem and studying with…

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Yes, it included then going from there, then my longing, which had started very early. When I was 10 years old, I always had the feeling something is burning in the chest, but whenever I asked a grown-up, they didn't know what to tell me. They would tell me, go and drink a glass of water.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So I understood that there are things, in my case, I thought it's grown-ups that grown-ups can't understand.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But then later on I understood that there are… there are seekers, obvious, conscious seekers, and there are seekers that are asleep.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And, but with that experience with this old man in the streets of Cairo, I decided I have to… I have to go and search.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I have to find a place where I can come also, if I may say so, into that state of saying praise to God in whatever state I am in.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And to have that love that this old man had, and that trust, and that surrender.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So simple, and so deep, and so, so pure.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And so my search started, and it ended, as you said, it ended in Jerusalem, where I never thought I would end.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because, you know, due to the political situation, when you were brought up in an Arabic country, you wouldn't think of going to Jerusalem, you know. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, it was, for me, quite a difficult step to do that, and, and when I went there, I found my… my guide, my teacher. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And I wanted… I had booked a ticket for 12 days, so after 12 days, I was wanting to go back.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And when I was there, a few days later, my teacher told me, “You will stay here forever.” So I just panicked, and I said, “no, no, no, my ticket is for 12 days. I'm not staying here forever.”

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Yes, these, 12 days became them 12 years.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Alhamdulillah.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I was a student of my shayk for 12 years, and I had the honor of living with him in the same house.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And, and then, yes, then I married also his son, so the bond was even stronger, so yes, that's… that's the path.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well… speaking of Jerusalem, one of the things that, that I admire and respect about you so much is your ability to hold the, the unity in the face of… of… difficulty, severity, oppression, hardship, all of the, all of the words that we might associate with what is happening in Palestine.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and whenever… 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ... that situation and, you know, I've heard people ask you about polarizing figures, political figures, for… for a polite way of saying it. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and you always… refer to…first, the us. Like, you don't separate, and you don't other. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You don't make the other person as separate from the person who's asking the question. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You don't make the person they're asking about different from the person who's asking, if I'm making sense.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And because you have, I feel like uniquely hold and teach from that place of a commitment to the unity. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I wonder if you could just speak to what that means, what… what the unity, what la ilaha illallah, there is no god but God, on the inner… the inner meaning, and how we can hold that in…in every face, and… in, in every place.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: If I say there's a creator and we are the creation, that means we were all created by Him.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And in a way, I know it's not, completely polite, but let me say it to make it more simple.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: If we say Allah, God, is the sun. He sends us rays of consciousness.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And we are the mirrors that according to how we have purified our mirror, we can receive that consciousness.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And the higher our consciousness is, the… the wider it becomes, because… it is important if you…love and want to be close to the Creator, the first thing we do is to honor ourselves, because you can't say, I love God, but I hate myself.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You… that's not the way you will ever come close to God.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, to learn to be merciful to yourself is essential.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And at the same time, it is essential for our growth to be merciful to others.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: What does that mean? When my consciousness develops from an ego-consciousness to a universal consciousness, I can then go into a state of understanding.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And understanding is, for us human beings, important in order to be able to transform.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Understanding does not mean agreeing.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But in order to see beyond the obvious, and understanding has to be, and in order to understand why the other one is behaving in that way, there has to be an understanding.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Then the next step, I can say, I understand, but I do not agree.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Then I can help on the root of things.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, if I say there's a creator, and there's creation, and humanity is then one family.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, it's the same thing with me. If I look at humanity as my family, I can say, I respect them all, I love them all.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And… but if family members behave in an inhuman way, I have to stand up against them.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Against them, in the sense to show them the cruelty, or to show them that they're going out of the path of justice, or they're going out of the path of truth.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But if I don't have that understanding as a basic, if I do not have that quality, we are united, and everyone is affected by the other one, then I also have an interest in helping the others to transform, and in protecting the ones that are misused. This is then a natural, instinct.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And then my values grow on that.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And then there are universal values that have nothing to do with culture, have nothing to do with the color of a human being, has nothing to do with rich or poor, has nothing to do with religion.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And this is what the Quran very clearly says, the ones who have that attitude, are believers.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And what, what, what does it mean to be a believer?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It has only three points.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: A believer is someone who believes in God.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Someone who believes that our deeds have consequences.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And someone who does good things. This is a believer.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Now, whatever color it has on the outside, that's something else.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because religion is always the outer structure.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It's the teachings, it's the rituals, it's the community, it's the laws, the sharia, it's the vessel that helps us, guide our inner journey.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, religion… but religion without spirituality is, is an empty shell.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It's a ritual without heart, it's a dogma without love, it's obedience without understanding. So we need spirituality as well.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And spirituality without, the anchor of religion is like, how do you say, a sail without an anchor, yes.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It moves accordingly and drifts and can enter into self-delusion and, also sentimentality without depth.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Ideally, it would be to have both.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So religion gives form to spirituality, and spirituality gives life to religion.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But as I said, the inner is this attitude, or these three points, should help us go through life and stop doing separation, but seeing what we have in common.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because it's the believers, if I may say so, with these three points that help us to find what we have in common and to stand up for each other, especially in times of crisis, where separation is so loved by the ego, because it thinks it needs to protect itself.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, it translates separation as protection.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So the intersection of spirituality and social justice is that when we engage in, ideally, both religion and spirituality, we have the possibility of transforming the ego consciousness into universal consciousness, which opens the door to understanding.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And with that understanding comes both the realization of what you agree with and don't agree with in terms of what is right and what is not right...

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Yes, that is the quality of distinction.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ... and awareness of humanity as one family.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then acting from that, so the action, the activism part, is acting from that consciousness of… and that understanding of the distinction, but then also, what do we have in common in standing up for each other as one human family.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, this is accurate paraphrasing, inshallah?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because now we are in a moment -- we have the highest capacity to let our consciousness grow and develop and we have the highest moment of self-destruction.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, we are confronting these two things. And the question is, where are we going?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: We have atom bombs, we… we are destruction, nature, animals, everything. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So it's a decision now, and that's why we are in a crisis. Crisis is always… the old cannot continue like that, and the new is not yet there.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, it is our consciousness, our awareness as human beings to, to ask, what do we want?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And what… what are we standing for? And I think… Mmm… That this is an essential question now.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: One of the things that I also want to ask you about -- you just mentioned nature -- and I also wondered if you could speak to the intersection of spirituality and nature. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I can't help but -- it's from you that I heard the saying that an hour contemplating nature is worth I don't know, 70 years, I forget, praying in the mosque. You know this. But there's also the idea, I believe in Islam, that nature is the first book, so…

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Yes, nature is the first book, and spirituality and nature are not opposites. They are mirrors for another.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, we need nature, we need to read in nature in order also to understand who we are.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Mmm… Because the same divine breath that animates the wind to blow, or the heart to beat, it's all from the same Source, so we are connected naturally with nature.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Every leaf whispers, subhanallah [Glory to God], and every river says, Hayy (The Ever Living), you know, the divine names of....

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So we are connected with nature, and we need it, so we are actually destroying our biggest book, in which we all sit and read instead of protecting it and… and growing through it.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So the more we purify our heart, the more we also hear the recitation of the universe, of the divine names, if I may say so.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: We see how everything in around us praises God, the Creator.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And it is only when we sit down in silence that suddenly we hear that praising.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And every one of us knows when we are in difficult times. Sorry. [Cough]

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And we go and sit at the shore at the side of a river, that the river, with its movement, and with the light it carries calms us, and brings clarity, and balances things, and relativates things again, and we can stand up enriched, and go back and solve our problem, if I may say so.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Mmm…

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And Allah says very clearly in the Quran that we're showing them the signs outside and inside so that they can realize the truth until it is clear to them.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So nature plays a very important part in spirituality.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, is there anything in particular that you would recommend that someone do? I know you just mentioned go sit in silence by the river, but is…is that what you recommend, is just go outside and be in silence?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Well, to go into nature and to have the honor of walking through it and seeing all these different beings -- the beautiful thing about us human beings, which we often forget, that we are actually the soul of the universe and that everything has a reflection in us. Every tree, every ant, every tiger, every cloud. Nothing is alien to us as human beings. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: We can… although they are from different worlds, they are not alien to us. We can connect with them because there's something in us that in our inner evolution, if you want, in the wombs of our mothers, we have gone through the state of the mineral, and the plant, and the animal before we get the soul of a human being, so nothing is alien to us in nature.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So to understand that, and to go with respect and joy through nature, and to drink from it. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: If you are out of balance, and you go and hug an apple tree. Your, your, your subtle body will be strengthened.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, nature is there to heal us and to inspire us.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And not going out and not having a little conversation with a grass or with a tree is sad.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You say also, even, there's a saying that if you talk with your plants, they grow better.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because we have a breath of light when we are… when there's sympathy there. Our breath… the light we carry goes through our breath into the plant.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And there are some people who have such pure hearts that when they breathe on a flower, it blossoms.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So there is a strong connection between us and nature.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It is definitely more enriching than looking all the time on your phone.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: If you look at a tree, you do not see a piece of wood then anymore when your heart is filled. You see the divine patience and surrender in it...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: ... because it carries the quality of those. And that reflects on you again.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And then, if you see beautiful flowers, the quality of thankfulness comes to you, and it fills you. So, there's a dialogue between us and nature.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You, you brought up phones.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I can't help but -- I'm going try and connect a couple points -- your comments around religion and spirituality, and when you brought up looking at our phones --

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I feel that… this… we have a society that is primarily based, or largely based, especially in our youth, but actually many ages, where looking at a screen and not dealing with each other directly has become more and more common. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I feel as if, I could be wrong, but I feel like that there's been a commensurate decline in the amount of respect that we give each other to go with that. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That, like, it's become normal, I think because people were online, or they were on a phone, and so somebody would post something, and then you could just comment, but it wasn't, like, to somebody's face, and so it became somehow permissible to…to say something that you would never say if you weren't in person.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And now it seems like, generally, we have a phenomenon where students treat their teachers in a way that we would never have seen before, or we see children interacting with parents in a way that we would have never seen before, or students and their professors in the college setting, employers and employees, and that there is this general phenomena of disrespect becoming the norm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm, hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I was wondering if you would share something about the Sufi concept of adab, which I know is much more than politeness. It's inclusive of good conduct and so much more, but I wondered if you could share any thoughts on this… trend that we have culturally, at least here in the U.S, so strongly around being quite disrespectful to each other.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I think when you are very much… when the contact you have to the world and to human beings through a machine, or through a phone, what you stop doing is filtering.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You do not more filter your emotions, no more your ideas.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Whatever you don't like, you just delete.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, there is no more confrontation, because we grow by having other people around us, by mirroring each other, you know, our behavior and the way we say, and so on.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: If this goes away, or is very much marginalized and we have to deal with a machine, then the filter goes away.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: First of all, because nothing is being reflected to me so I can say whatever I want.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And it's somewhere on the outside and I'm not responsible for it.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So I throw something out, and the moment I throw it out, I'm no more responsible for it. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So what we're doing is actually, we are creating human beings who say whatever they want without thinking of any consequences, because when it's thrown out, it's no more me. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So I don't identify myself with what I'm doing. So I don't really have responsibility. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So the human being then lingers in their egos, and in their moods and goes according to the moods of the moment, that's it, without having any values, because they don't need values, and without thinking it has consequences, and that makes a human being impolite and rude and cruel.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And we have… what we have to do is, we have… we are in a world where this phone is essential, especially when we are dealing with youth and children.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: When my son wanted a phone, oh, \ no, not a phone, he wanted to play these games, you know, where two fight, and so on, and so on.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I told him, yes, you can -- a limited time. But you also have to learn how to make a fire.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So we have to balance it out.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Oh, you also have to go and, sorry [coughing] learn, for example, judo.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So that you feel the punches that you are distributing in your game.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So that you stay real.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because you become unreal when you're only dealing with these abstract this, artificial intelligence.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You don't need the parts that make you human in it so they fall asleep.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And we have to see how we can keep the balance. I'm not saying that you, you know, have to take the phones away and throw them, but bring a balance.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: This is very important because this generation has never lived anything else. The elder generations have tasted times where there was no internet, there was no computer, there were no phones, but the younger generations, they don't know that. They think this is reality.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So they know more about a waterfall in Hawaii than about the tree in front of their window.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So we take them away, we put them into a world that is artificial, and at the same time, we want them to behave like human beings, with respect, with honor, with politeness. It doesn't function, because they're in a world where this is not really needed.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: The balance is always important.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So how do we… if…how do we connect to these dots?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, if you're in the face of someone who has normalized speaking to people as if they were online, and those filters are not needed, how do you hold the inner and the outer? How do you hold the commonality and we're all one family? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: How do you hold an understanding of right and wrong, and I don't just… I don't agree with this, this is not okay to talk to me or to talk to anyone else this way? And so how do you stand in what's right and maintain politeness in yourself when you're in the face of such impoliteness?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: What we always have, and this is our path, is to be in the quality of mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But mercy does not mean sweetness. Mercy can be very strong, very like a sword.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But the quality is still mercy. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Why mercy? Because one of our favorite hobbies is to correct others. The nafs (ego-self) loves that.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But correcting others is not what I mean.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But mercy sees, for example, somebody in the office always mobbing someone else. My mercy tells me to go to this person not because I want to show him I'm better, you know, I'm more cultivated than you, and I have to show you what is correct, no. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I go there because I'm interested that he does not fall into darkness. And I'm interested in protecting the one who's being mobbed.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, my mercy can be that I go to that person and speak very harshly and very clearly.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But yet, it is not because I feel better and he's lower, but because out of mercy, I want him… I want to… as much as I want to protect the one who is being mobbed, I want to protect the mobber.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, it is always the quality of mercy, but it has many faces.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Just like a mother that a child hangs out of the window, she's not going to say, sweetheart, go… she's going to be very harsh, this is forbidden.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But she does it out of love and mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, mercy is not a quality of sweetness all the time. It is very clear, but my inner attitude, my inner consciousness of what I am doing has to be based on the quality of mercy, because this is what Allah tells us, and this is what our greatest teacher tells us.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So it's not enough to speak up, to stand up for yourself, or to stand up for someone else. When you speak up, it should be standing up for yourself, for someone else, and for the person who is doing the perpetration.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Yes, because you have this quality of this human family.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And one member is behaving in a way that is hurting the other member.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So it is my… my duty to stand up. But to say it in a way that the one… who is doing the wrong is not attacked, because if a person is attacked, the only thing they do is they defend themselves.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But if you do it in a way where the other person maybe then can go home and reflect upon it, then you have done something good.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And one of the most important things when you're on the spiritual path is that you're contributing to a just society.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: That means you stand up against the strong ones misusing the weak.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You stand up against corruption, you stand up against nature being destroyed. These are natural things you stand up for.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Spirituality has to have a social expression.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Each one in their form, some can only, you know, be against what is wrong in their hearts, some can speak up, some can do something.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But there's… everyday… Allah gives us places where we can contribute in the smallest of things, huh?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Even giving water to a… to a pot, a plant in a pot is spreading mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So what I'm trying to say, don't make yourself small, but be conscious, a conscious contributor.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… Again, trying to conduct some points here between your comments on religion and spirituality, the comments on being a conscious contributor…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...in so many spaces, whether it's the church, or the temple, the mosque what's coming from the pulpit, or the minbar [pulpit], is a very… narrowly held… of conception of… of religion.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And perhaps with a complete absence of spirituality, but it's definitely…. Very often what we're hearing, whether it's in turning on the television or even going to the mosque or going to the church, often what I think many of us are hearing is just this real harshness, and this real, like, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this… and there's, like, the door is not open to love in those spaces, in many… in many….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think many of us are experiencing being in those places and experiencing a real absence of love.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, is there a way to be in the face of that, of this… narrowness, this… I mean, from my experience, I almost… I've had this feeling of…this person may think that they have so much knowledge, and they think that they are spreading knowledge, and they… they've… I believe that they probably have good intentions, but what they are saying is absent from love, and from my perspective, if there's no love in it, then they don't know God.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, is there a way to be in this way that you're talking about of the one human family, where if you speak up to the person who's being disrespectful, that you're speaking up on behalf of yourself, on behalf of the person who is the recipient, also on behalf of the person who's saying, who is spreading this disrespectful way of communicating -- is there a same way to… to bring that into being in the face of this, I think you used the word dogma without… I forget the phrase that you used earlier, but being in the face of that narrowness that seems to completely lack heartfulness?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Well, generally speaking, what does religion want to do?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: It says… Know Him, know God, know Allah.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And most people, try to introduce God, or try… by telling us what your… what He says you should not do.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And by scaring us in order not to do it.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: There are some who talk about religion talking about the beautiful sides, that's true. But generally speaking, a religion says, know Him.

Fawzia Al-Rawi:: Spirituality says, Be with Him.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, I can listen to the ones who tell me, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that because it's giving me knowledge.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But if I don't then say the next one, which is spirituality, be with Him, then the knowledge alone is very cruel, depending on who's talking.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Some less cruel, some more cruel, some exaggerate, whatever. But at the same… it is that, actually. What they're trying to tell you, and I'm sure many of them are authentic in the way they think, is know Him. I'm telling you. He's telling you, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Okay.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But they can't tell you, be with Him.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Be with Him is somewhere, is more the intimate. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: That's why the laws of a religion, as we say, has the word… the law has sharia, and it is the wide path that takes you to the water but it is not that hidden path that shows you the inner oasis. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: This is a spirituality, and this is when you be with Him. Then you can reflect and understand why God has put these laws.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: How are they helping me to come closer to understand myself?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, we have to distinguish between these two, and when you go and somebody preaches, you have to understand that this person is trying to tell you, know Him, not more.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So I can say, well, this one is really extreme, I do not want to listen. Or I can stay and say, yes, interesting, I will reflect upon it when I'm with Him so that I understand.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: The difference between spirituality and religion is the spiritual person wants to understand why -- Why do I have to pray? Why do I have to fast? Why do I have to give part of my money to the poor? Why do I have to do this and that?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Let me drink from it.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So that I can do it out of love, not out of fear, not out of an exchange. I do this, and for that You… You… You give me… You fulfill the promises You give… You have given. Then it's more… which is also okay. 

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But that's a follower of a religion. The other one is a believer.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And what about the impact of the former being…

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Sorry [coughing]. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What about the impact of the former being making separation and driving people away from religion?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: As I said, spirituality is very essential, because it puts life into religion. And if you stay only with the outer forms of religion, you are trying to fly with one wing.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: You need both wings, and the motor to hold them both is the heart in the middle, in the chest.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Any final words of wisdom?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Hmm, the final words of wisdom?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Any takeaways that you want to give?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We have a… Beyond Names has a wide listenership, everything from, of course, Sufis, but to Christians, and Buddhists, and spiritual but not religious, tipping their toe into spirituality, but from a place of not really stepping in yet, so it's quite a…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, any, any takeaways? Any last thoughts that you'd like to… to share?

Fawzia Al-Rawi: I think we are in a time where it is important that we combine logic with wisdom in order to make our decisions and to stand up for what we truly want in this life.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And I do think that the only, only quality that helps us in developing is the quality of mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: And in Arabic, we say rahmah, which is a bit more than just mercy, because it includes love, it includes protection, it includes guidance.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: But the essence of our transformation as human beings has always been compassion and mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Without this quality, that means with a wide and soft heart, wisdom goes away and logic can be very cruel.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Because the world is not only one and one is two. There are many… it's a mystery, and we can only enter into seeing what is behind the obvious through the quality of compassion and mercy.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So this is what I hope for all of us, that we can overcome separation and learn from each other. It's so nice that we have that multiplicity.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Through multiplicity, we learn from each other, and we discover that beneath all that multiplicity, there is only one truth, so there is oneness there.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Without multiplicity, which is so amazing, we would not discover oneness.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: So, I hope we will have a world that remembers that, and that we help and support each other, and not to underestimate that the river is formed out of drops, and every drop is essential.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, and your insights, and your presence.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Thank you.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Thank you so much for your invitation. Do forgive me my coughing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Of course.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you for joining us on Beyond Names. Before we go -- briefly, if you would please pause for just a moment, for one breath, to reflect on what stays with you from this conversation with Fawzia.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you find your way again and again back home to the divine, back home to yourself.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment on this episode, and please follow Beyond Names.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me. Please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/. Until next time, may you be light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you consciously participate in sharing your light, and may you grow and share your light with mercy and compassion and this consciousness of humanity as one family.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.

Fawzia Al-Rawi: Thank you. Peace be with you, Habib.