The Inner Struggle to Do the Right Thing — A Conversation with Dr. Jihad Turk

In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Dr. Habib Boerger sits down with Dr. Jihad Turk, founding president of Bayan Islamic graduate school, to explore the beauty of religion when it is lived with depth, discipline, and love.

Dr. Turk shares his journey as a Palestinian-American growing up in Arizona, the shock of his parents’ divorce that propelled him into spiritual seeking, his formative studies in Medina and Iran, and the ecstatic experiences that anchored his faith. He shares an experience of feeling truly seen by the Divine. Together, Habib and Jihad reflect on how those moments sustain us for a lifetime.

They explore:

• The true meaning of jihad as the struggle to do the right thing
• Spirituality vs. religion — and why religion, “when done right,” can deepen the soul
• The importance of practice, discipline, and community
• Interfaith education as a path toward healing and peace
• Founding Bayan Islamic graduate school in partnership with Claremont School of Theology
• Mystical moments at the Dome of the Rock and in Hebron at the resting place of Abraham

This episode is about inner peace in a fractured world. It is about cracking the door open. It is about finding your keel in the storm. And it is about remembering that the deepest struggle is not against others — but within ourselves. 

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 37

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Dr. Jihad Turk

Title: The Inner Struggle to Do the Right Thing — A Conversation with Dr. Jihad Turk

Description: In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Dr. Habib Boerger sits down with Dr. Jihad Turk, founding president of Bayan Islamic graduate school, to explore the beauty of religion when it is lived with depth, discipline, and love.

Dr. Turk shares his journey as a Palestinian-American growing up in Arizona, the shock of his parents’ divorce that propelled him into spiritual seeking, his formative studies in Medina and Iran, and the ecstatic experiences that anchored his faith. He shares an experience of feeling truly seen by the Divine. Together, Habib and Jihad reflect on how those moments sustain us for a lifetime.

They explore:

• The true meaning of jihad as the struggle to do the right thing
• Spirituality vs. religion — and why religion, “when done right,” can deepen the soul
• The importance of practice, discipline, and community
• Interfaith education as a path toward healing and peace
• Founding Bayan Islamic graduate school in partnership with Claremont School of Theology
• Mystical moments at the Dome of the Rock and in Hebron at the resting place of Abraham

This episode is about inner peace in a fractured world. It is about cracking the door open. It is about finding your keel in the storm. And it is about remembering that the deepest struggle is not against others — but within ourselves.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who aren't sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Hashem, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher Power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within. I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Dr. Jihad Turk.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Jihad Turk is the founding president of Bayan Islamic graduate school, a preeminent Muslim institution of higher education.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Dr. Turk served as the Imam for many years at the Islamic Center of Southern California. He has received awards for his religious leadership by the U.S. Congress, the Valley Interfaith Council, the South Coast Interfaith Council. He's been acknowledged as a local hero by the World Festival of Sacred Music and was recognized as one of the 500 most influential people in Los Angeles by the LA Business Journal.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Dr. Turk and his work, please visit baynonline.org.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Jihad, welcome, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Jihad Turk: It's my honor and pleasure, Dr. Habib.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, if you would, would you introduce yourself to our listeners by way of sharing your spiritual story?

Dr. Jihad Turk: Sure, I, feel free to jump in, I don't want to drone on for too long, but I'll just start at the beginning, if I… if I may.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, you know, my…my father is an immigrant from Jerusalem. He was born in the Old City, right next to the Dome of the Rock.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Even though my ancestry is from Hebron, which is about an hour south of Jerusalem. It's where Abraham is buried. So, the patriarch of monotheism.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But my father immigrated to the U.S. by himself at the age of 17. He was sponsored by a local business person in California.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… finished high school there, apprenticed at that businessman's print shop. He became a printer.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then, met my mom, who… and got married and moved to Arizona, where I was born and raised. My mom is originally from Oklahoma.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, so I say my…my dad's from the Mideast, and my mom's from the Midwest.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, so I'm an American kid from Arizona, with that sort of, more unusual background.

Dr. Jihad Turk: My mom… my mother comes from a Methodist background. Wasn't super practicing, but a believer in God.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And my father was a practicing Muslim, but I wouldn't say a knowledgeable Muslim. He… I don't think he's read a book, in his life other than the Quran. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, yeah, I mean, he must have, because he went to…got his associate's degree in college. He didn't finish a bachelor's degree, but… so he must have read something, but I… I had never seen it in my adult… in my young, you know, life and my adult life.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He passed a year ago, almost exactly at the age of 87.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But he had a practice of Islam, but really, he didn't have much to pass on to me by way of knowledge of the faith -- either book knowledge, or…a profound spiritual knowledge, because he hadn't…followed a, a Sufi sheikh, or…

Dr. Jihad Turk: He didn't… he just had superficial knowledge of the faith, but it was enough for him, and it was a… it was a foundation and a bedrock for him.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, to his credit, he… he did a couple of things, foundationally, for me in my spiritual journey.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: 

Dr. Jihad Turk: The first thing he did is he, you know, he worked, like, 3 jobs when I was growing up. He was a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman, he was a printer, and then he eventually got into real estate, so he… he was doing all 3 at one time when I was younger. But he always took Sundays off.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, Sunday being the sacred day for Muslims. No, I'm just kidding.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, Sunday was his day off, and so he created a Sunday school, with, maybe 3 or 4 other families, and they ended up purchasing a house eventually, but at first we met in random places, community centers, the basement of a bank. You know, it's weird that they opened up a bank, the basement of a bank for the, you know, for the community to rent and conduct Sunday school in Arizona.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, in various locations, and then ultimately we bought a house, and we would meet there, and have a Sunday school class.

Dr. Jihad Turk: We would learn Arabic over and over and over for the first 15 years of my life, taught by one of the uncles in the community. We eventually had, like, a youth group.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We learned the basics of Islam.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So that was one thing he did, and he, you know, he also practiced in the home, prayed regularly, etc.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, the second thing that he did that was, I think, quite influential in my in my spiritual journey is that he helped found and attended every year since 1962 a Muslim retreat, a Muslim youth camp, family camp.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I was born in 71, and so I've been going to this family camp pretty much every year since then, and I'll be 55 coming up this July, so… I probably missed maybe 10 years over the 55 years, but…you know, he's been going since the early 60s.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, we… even though we lived in Arizona, we would drive out as a family and spend a week at this camp, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: Scholars would come to the camp, people who were learned who had a profound connection to the faith.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And we lived as a Muslim community, as if we were in a Muslim-majority country for a week every summer.

Dr. Jihad Turk: It was pretty awesome. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah, made friends, because, you know, in Phoenix in the 70s, there weren't… you know, you're either Black, white, or Mexican.

Dr. Jihad Turk: There weren't a lot of, you know, Muslims there. Like I said, there were only 3 or 4 families that we met up with on Sundays, and none of them, none of their kids went to our, you know, went to our elementary school or high school, so it was just our family.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I had one brother who's the oldest, and three sisters.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But I would say my spiritual journey began in earnest when in the middle of… of my high school career, in which I was doing quite well, I have to say.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And he also sent us to MYNA in the winter. He started in the mid-80s. He started sending us to the Muslim Youth of North America, which is like a another youth camp, but just for young people.

Dr. Jihad Turk: There wasn't a family camp, it was just a youth camp in the frozen tundra of Plainfield, Indiana, in the winter.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I remember one year it was 20 degrees below zero, and mud froze, and I was like, what? Mud could freeze? You know, in Arizona, you know, it dropped down into the 40s in the winter. You know, it was rarely very cold there, so that was an experience. But I also met some pretty profound individuals at that occasion.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But in the middle of all of that, after 24 years of marriage, my parents divorced, and it was sudden.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, it was kind of… jolting, shocking to my system.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I had a… a moment where… you know, I just reflected and, you know, asked, well, what is permanent?

Dr. Jihad Turk: What is the…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm…

Dr. Jihad Turk: ultimate source of… of inner peace, you know, where does that… where do I find that?

Dr. Jihad Turk: Because I thought it was, like, everything was stable around me, and then all of a sudden, my world was shocked, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, at the same time, in an outwardly way, I was on top of the world.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I was both academically, you know, near the top of my class, and in sports, I was, you know, lettered as a varsity, you know, my sophomore year in track, and in, you know, football, I got moved up to varsity my sophomore year, and…and, and I was popular, I was homecoming king, you know, my senior year.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, but none of that meant anything. It was all empty, shallow, hollow.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so I was asking myself, well, what is that source? If it's not what everyone is looking for, because I had it at that time...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: ...you know, in this outwardly superficial, worldly, material sense.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And it's… and if, you know, necessarily, you know, love is… marriage isn't necessarily the end-all and be-all of inner peace and happiness, then what is it?.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And instead of turning to drugs and alcohol, like many of my classmates did, in Phoenix, Arizona, growing up, I had a sense that some of the people I met at those camps that there was some there there.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Like, they… some of them seem to really have the sense of inner peace and tranquility that I was looking for.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I said, let me look into this religion thing, and I, you know, my mom being Christian, my dad being Muslim, I gave me license to look into both of those two.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I'm Palestinian-American, so I didn't… honestly, I didn't look into Judaism because of, you know, the tension around that topic as it relates to Zionism and the occupation of Palestine.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I didn't take a deep look at Judaism, but I did look at Christianity and at Islam, and as I did so, I… you know, tried finding books to read.

Dr. Jihad Turk: This is before the age of the internet, so there was no, you know, Googling anything. This was in the 80s.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: 88, 87, 88, 89.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… I, I just started reading random books, and I didn't have anybody to guide me as to even which books to read.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And a…a knowledgeable person happened to come into town. And we didn't have very many of those in Phoenix at the time.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But he was traditionally trained, you know, in the Middle East. He studied at Al-Azhar, he studied at, you know, in Kuwait with, you know, high-level scholars, shuyukh, as we would say in the Arabic, you know, kind of…you know, some of them were profoundly spiritual, Sufi masters, others were scholars in law and other disciplines.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, you know, he had studied there traditionally, and then come and studied at the highest level in the West.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He had studied at Yale, and at Penn Law School, and…and was clerking for the Supreme Court of Arizona at the time I met him, and that's why he was in Arizona for a year.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then went on to do his doctorate at Princeton in Islamic studies, and became a professor, ultimately.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, he had married the… the… someone local to Arizona, who… one of the families that my father had teamed up with to create the local mosque.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so, I… that's how I was introduced to him.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… I, I… I said… you know, when he visited, I said, can you just give me a reading list? Give me a list of books. I'm so eager to learn.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And he, you know, he kind of just blew me off and didn't think I was very serious, but I kept persisting and pestering him, and…and I said, look, I'm not asking for anything, just give me a list of books, like, what… where do I start?

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so, after a while, he kind of figured, okay, maybe I…maybe I was serious, and so he, he said, look, why don't you just come over, bring some friends if you want, and we'll… we'll start a little study circle.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I was, like, you know, wide-eyed and, you know… and, enthusiastic, so I came with a couple of my sisters, and there was another family that had recently moved into town, so my friend and his sisters.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So it was just, like, you know, 5 or 6 of us.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, we started this twice-a-week intensive, 3-4 hours at a time study circle, where we studied, we studied, exactly what I was looking for.

Dr. Jihad Turk: We studied foundational texts of Revelation and, you know, the biography of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: We studied, you know, texts of theology and law and philosophy and commentary on the, on the Quran.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, it was awesome.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So for a year, I did this, and then he finished his term at the Supreme Court of Arizona as a clerk, and then he went on to Princeton, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: And during that time, I said, you know, I… I want to learn more, because I didn't grow up speaking Arabic.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, they say mother tongue for a reason. My mother, being from Oklahoma, did not know any Arabic, and so…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I, during that time, decided after my freshman year, and this is during my freshman year of college, 1989-90 at Arizona State University. I was studying engineering.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I decided to apply for a scholarship to go study Arabic at the Islamic University in Medina, Saudi Arabia.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… at the beginning… right at the beginning of my sophomore year and one week after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in the run-up to the first Gulf War, I was, accepted to that program, which is a full-ride scholarship.

Dr. Jihad Turk: They fly you out, they put you up, they give you a stipend even, and it's an immersion… it's an immersion program in Arabic for, you know, it could be for 10 years if you want.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Arabic program, bachelor's degree, master's degree, doctorate degree.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So…you know, I was kind of set. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: I was really excited, and so I withdrew my… from college. I went, and I did a couple of years there.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, remember, this is in the run-up to the first Gulf War, so I'm there on this spiritual mission. My American cousins, my cousin Chad was there on a different mission.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He was, sent by the U.S. military, on a… on a war mission, and, you know, there I was on a mission to try and understand, the universe and the… you know, my own self and figure out my place in existence.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so I had my walkabout, my spiritual walkabout there, and I remember one day, you know, the bombs had been following… been falling on Baghdad and all over Iraq starting in January 15th of 1991.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… And I had… I had gone there 6 months before that, during the build-up, in the… in August of 1990.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, they closed the university during the… during the bombing, and, you know, I just remember going in the middle of the night out to… they had a sports field there in the desert of Arabia. It was artificial turf, of course.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I just laid down there in the middle of the pitch, looking up at the brilliant, incredibly brilliant night sky. There was no moon at that day… on that day.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, just… asking God, what is… what is my… what is my point?

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I… and, you know, before that, I… before I reached that point, I had learned enough Arabic where when I would stand in prayer and listen to a reciter recite the revelation in the original Arabic language, I was able to pick up 50, 60, 70, 80% even, what was being said.

Dr. Jihad Turk: It was very profound, and I was like, I found it. This is it. And then I was… my question was, what do I want to do with my life? 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And that's when I sort of decided, I know what I want to do. I want to come back and… become a professor of Islamic Studies and offer courses that I wish were available at my university when I was studying engineering, just as an elective to learn about Islam and Muslims in a way that wasn't hostile.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Because oftentimes you know, those subjects are taught by people who are Orientalists, who have… who are either antithetical to religion in general, or Islam in particular. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so…I said, I want to offer those classes in a way that is accessible, that is authentic, that is, you know, academic, but… but… but…really showcases the beauty of what that faith has to offer.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so I decided I needed to go to a better university than Arizona State University.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so I applied to and ultimately got accepted to study at the University of California, Berkeley where I did a bachelor's degree in Islamic history and Arabic.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And before finishing my degree, after my junior year, I withdrew another year and said, I learned so much more by the, you know, the immersion experience of Arabic in Arabia, let me do the same for Persian, for Farsi.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I talked to my… one of my professors there, who is a British convert to Islam, Dr. Hamid Algar, who wrote me some letters of introduction. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I just went and explored Iran, landed there with no program or anything, and ended up, finding something beautiful, and studied in both Qom [southwest of Tehran, Iran], which is the headquarters of Shia Islam, but also the University of Tehran, learning Farsi and doing some Islamic studies there as well.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then, came back and finished up my degree, got married my senior year of college, moved to Texas for my master's degree at the University of Texas at Austin in Islamic law and jurisprudence.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then came out to UCLA in 1999 to pursue my doctoral degree in Islamic studies, where I taught for a number of years.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I'll just conclude my spiritual journey by saying this, because my spiritual journey then ultimately led to my professional journey, which, you know, I was… I'd been teaching Arabic and Islamic studies as an adjunct faculty at UCLA while doing my doctoral degree.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But I was approached by the leadership of the oldest and largest mosque in Southern California, and they said, oh, can you serve as our religious director, our imam, our clergy person?

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I said, well, you know, I'm, you know, I'm kind of on a trajectory to becoming a professor, that's not really what I had in mind. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And they said, well, you can keep doing that, but you can also serve as our religious director, because, you know, you literally and figuratively speak the languages of our community. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: You can also hopefully connect to young people, and you can help our communities be more civically engaged given that you were born and raised in this country. You know, a lot of the… there were probably 80 different nationalities at the mosque, and probably 90% of them were born and raised outside of this country.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, I said, I'll give it a try, but I was quite skeptical. And, to my surprise, I found the community very dynamic, the leadership very visionary and supportive, and I really enjoyed my time there.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I started in 2005 and was their director until 2012, but one of the things that they let me do was to create a third space, to create a space for people who might have been born Muslim, but didn't find the mosque particularly fulfilling, or… or a meaningful place for their spirituality.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so we created a young professionals group, and we, you know, we had a large group of, at one point, 1,500 members.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And we would meet, we would do hiking, and biking, and book clubs, and feeding the poor, and… you know, just all kinds of, we would have a monthly potluck dinner, and just the Qur’anic reflections, and it was awesome.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, the other thing I, you know, in addition to creating a food pantry at the Islamic Center, which is one of the first things that, you know, first projects I undertook, they also, were supportive of the project that…

Dr. Jihad Turk: It really fell in my lap when I was approached by the president of a 130-year-old Christian seminary, Claremont School of Theology, which you know.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Dr. Jerry Campbell came to me and said, you know, I need your help. We're a 103-year-old Christian seminary, and and, I've been following your leadership, and, you know, can you help us out? And it's like, well, what can I do? I'm, you know, Muslim, a clergy person here in LA, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, he said, well, you know, Christian, mainline Protestant seminary education has been on the decline in the U.S. since the 70s and they brought me on as the new president to revitalize this institution. You know, Jerry was from Texas. Dr. Campbell.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, so he… he said, I've been working on something, and here's where I could use your help.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I want to make religion relevant again, and meaningful and fulfilling for young people, who oftentimes look at religion as a, as a source of conflict and division and war.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said, I want to reclaim the role of religion to be a force for peacemaking in the world, and I want to desegregate theological education.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I said, wow, that sounds awesome. What does it mean?

Dr. Jihad Turk: And he said, well, I want to partner with a Muslim seminary, graduate-level seminary and a Jewish seminary, and a Buddhist university, and to create a consortium of seminaries so that the next generation of religious leaders profoundly understand one another and can find a common ground upon which they can build a more beautiful tomorrow.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I said, okay, that is a vision I can get behind, but what can I do? You know, I'm, you know, I'm a clergy person, but he said, well, can you help identify for me a local accredited Islamic graduate school seminary for us to partner with. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I said, oh, well, that's easy. There doesn't exist one in the entire country, let alone here in Southern California, but we need one. And I happen to be an academic by training, I mean, I was on the long track to my doctoral degree.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, you know, I happen to be an academic in training and a clergy person by training and practice, and a seminary is kind of a combination of those two fields, and so…I'm sure the Islamic Center would be supportive of me trying to rally the broader Muslim community of Southern California and beyond in creating one for you to partner with.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So he said, great, if you do that, we can… we can support you in three ways.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I said, okay, what are those ways? 

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said, well, first, we have a campus. It's 16.4 acres, we have excess capacity in terms of offices and classrooms, and we can share our library and our back office and, you know, administration, our student learning, you know, system.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, we'll give you a leg up that way. I said, okay, great.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said, number two, we… we can… incubate you so that your programs are accredited from the beginning.

Dr. Jihad Turk: We can't give you accreditation, but we can consider you an independent division of our institution and make sure that all of your programs are in line with the requirements for accreditation of the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, which gives us our accreditation. And once you're ready, you can spin off and take your accreditation with you and be an equal partner around the table. So we're just also giving you a leg up in that regard.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I said, great. He said, there's more. I said, Jerry, what more could there be? 

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said, Well, we have one, well-to-do trustee who's so excited about this project, that he's willing to cover the tab for the first couple of years -- to fund it.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I said, Jerry, that's very Christian of you. Let's get started.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, you know, I'm kind of summarizing a two-year conversation into, you know, five minutes, but, you know, we started the conversation in 2009. We announced our partnership in 2010, and we got all the boards aligned, and we created Bayan as an Islamic graduate school during that time.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then we launched our first degree program, master's degree, in Islamic Studies and Leadership in the fall of 2011.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And yeah, we had 3 students at the time, and since then, we've had over 250 students matriculate into the program, half of whom have graduated and half of whom are still enrolled.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, here's where, you know, that's… that's my story. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, in that time, I, you know, my wife and I have had 4 children, and… You know, I still go to that youth camp, and…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: We're… my wife is a Kashmiri-American. Born in Kashmir, but raised in Ohio, and then, yeah, our oldest is 25, and our youngest is 15.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So yeah, so life is busy and good, and we just, you know, launched a new mosque in Santa Monica that I'm very active at, and our family goes to.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, I'm still on the journey, and, you know, I've met some pretty profound individuals along the way, both scholars, but also -- 

Dr. Jihad Turk: once I was in Jerusalem early on in the spiritual journey, and I was visiting family, my uncles and aunts who live in Palestine.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I was visiting an uncle who lives at the Dome of the Rock. Like, the apartment closest to the Dome of the Rock is where my uncle and his kids live.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, as we were walking around, there was a, a group of individuals surrounding a wise-looking, older gentleman, and he was introduced to me, my uncle introduced him to me, and he came and put his hand on my head and recited a blessing upon me, and it was a very profound, spiritual moment for me, as well.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, Yeah, so I, you know, there's been a number of individuals like that I've met through the years, but you know, ultimately, I just remember those early days, before I even chose Islam properly.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I just remember in prayer, turning to God and asking God directly -- Teach me. Guide me.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And God responded by… by bringing people into my life that were guideposts that were shepherds, that were models for me to follow.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, I'm still on that journey.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful one.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Alhamdulillah [Praise God]. Alhamdulillah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so… Yeah, ahh, so we met in 2014, I think it was.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What you don't know is the, I guess in 2013? I guess, somewhere around there, the two doctors that I was working with at that time told me I was dying.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, and I was, living at a spiritual retreat center and making peace with letting go, and I was having dreams every night about dying.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, and I thought, you know, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to be face-to-face with our Lord.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that prompted me to… to do a series of things. The first was to go study with a teacher in Morocco, and then to do a 40-day retreat, and then during that 40-day retreat, this teacher invited me to go to Jerusalem during Ramadan, and be there as part of a trip to study during Ramadan and be at Al-Aqsa during Ramadan.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So what else came out of that was going on hajj [pilgrimage].

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And after I came back from hajj, I was like… Allah, I'm still here. I'm still alive. What… what do you want from me? You know, what's next?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so, I prayed, istikhara [prayer asking for guidance].

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And in the dream. Alright, so I went, I prayed istikhara, went to sleep, had a dream.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it couldn't have been more clear. In the dream, I was telling somebody that I'd gone back to school, I was getting my doctorate, even the topic of the… in the dream, I had told someone what the topic of my dissertation was. Right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So then, I find Bayan [https://bayanonline.org/home]. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You meet me there, take me to dinner, take me around campus. While we're talking, you tell me about this moment at Al-Aqsa, and we figure out that we're talking about the same guy that I came to Islam through.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Wow. Wow, yes, I remember that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And while we were sitting there talking on campus, I there was that little room across from the cafe area, and there were all these brochures, both for Bayan and for Claremont School of Theology, and while you and I were talking, I looked down, and I saw in a faculty member's description the field that was the topic of my dissertation in my dream.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Wow.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I was like, okay, I guess this is where I'm supposed to be.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Sometimes the signs are a little bit… I guess I'm one of those that takes really obvious signs, yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yes. Well, you know, you know, the… the… Choice is an illusion, in many ways. I mean, we're, we're kind of floating down the cosmic river.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, having lived in Texas, we would sometimes go tubing.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I feel like we're tubing down the cosmic river, and, you know, we think we can really choose where we're going, but that river's already carved out.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, we either accept it and go with the flow, or fight it, but ultimately, that river's going where it's going, and...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Indeed.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Indeed. Yeah, I don't know if you know this, but I lived in many years… I grew up in Magnolia, Texas.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I was born in also the Midwest. I was born in Kansas, so not far from Oklahoma, just neighbors. Grew up in Texas, spent many years. My first master's degree was at Texas State, so I went tubing, very likely, down the same river that you went to.

Dr. Jihad Turk: The Ria Fria, we went and visited the Ria Fria, I think it was, it was outside of Austin, it wasn't in Austin, but yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Is that where you went? Is the Ria Fria?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think so. I mean, I'm not 100% on the name, but it was a river not far out of Austin, so it kind of, you know, where that was the thing, that was where people went tubing in the area, so… probably the same, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then, of course, the fact that your family is from Hebron.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Do you still have family there?

Dr. Jihad Turk: Many, many family members. My dad was one of 12 kids. And a handful of them live in Jerusalem, and the rest live in, of his siblings, live in Hebron.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, Palestinians have large families, so one of… one uncle in Hebron had 17 kids. One had, you know, yeah, one had… in Jerusalem had 12 kids.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, each of them have kids, et cetera, and grandkids, so, you know, there's… it's quite a large family there. And the family, the extended family from which we come, the tribe, if you will, is called the Abu Sneineh tribe.

Dr. Jihad Turk: There's over 20, 25,000 members of that tribe in Hebron, so it's a… there's an entire neighborhood just opposite the mosque in, you know, in which Abraham and his family are buried. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: Just across the hill facing it, rather, is, known as the district of Abu Sneineh.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And there's a big graveyard there, and that's the graveyard of Abu Sneineh, so, you know, the family's been there for quite some time.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… one of… one of the most profound experiences, spiritually, of my life was visiting Hebron, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, being a white American convert, I… in retrospect, I realized that when I walked into the mosque there, that probably what I was getting was a little bit of, skepticism, perhaps even well-founded suspicion, you know, like, who is this guy? What is he doing here? Is he for real? Like, what is his intention?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, at the time, I really had no understanding of what it… I mean, and how can I really have much of an understanding of what it must be to live like in occupation, under occupation, or...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But now I have a bit more understanding of the context.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But… there was definitely those looks that was kind of like… it felt minimally standoffish. And then… when I went and offered… I just went and stood in front of the tomb of where Abraham is, peace be upon him, and I just offered a fatiha [the opening chapter of the Qur’an], and my heart just broke open.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I just, like… again, one of those moments that you can't describe, that you, you know, that there's no words to really convey what is happening in those… in those moments…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I turned around, and there was this older gentleman there with his prayer beads. He looked like he'd been sitting there for a hundred years. He looked like he hadn't moved. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet, he looked at me and I looked at him, and I don't know that I've ever felt so seen in my entire life.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I walked out of that just balling.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I mean, Abraham is the epitome of human seeking and connection to the Divine.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, having come from a background of idol worship and, you know, false gods, to then seeing through all of the, you know, obfuscation that human beings create between us and God, and…

Dr. Jihad Turk: And to great self-sacrifice, found his journey, and connected with the Divine, and ultimately, you know, he was expelled from his family and his village, and, you know, had to make it on his own, but…

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah, he's a… he's the epitome of… of…one undertaking a spiritual journey and finding, finding connection.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so it's not, it's not surprising that it's at his graveside that, you know, a seeker like yourself, is reaffirmed in the profundity of what you're undertaking.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it was a real experience of… what I would call tasting the unity, you know, tasting… tasting that sense of there not being a self anymore, just not being separation. You know, like, I remember when I walked back into the larger area, the larger prayer room area, and it was just, like, all these guys who had been looking at me somewhat skeptically before, like, everyone came up to say, you know, like, how long have you been a Muslim? Or, like, if somebody knew any English, they used the… however much they knew.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I mean, it was just this… it was like there was this outpouring of love that encompassed everyone.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It was a really indescribable and beautiful experience that I'll always carry in my… in my heart.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, when I was… my… during that freshman year of college, across the street from the university, they had just built… it used to be a house that my father would take us to, but then they ultimately turned it into a proper mosque in Tempe, Arizona [Islamic Community Center of Tempe].

Dr. Jihad Turk: And it actually replicates… it's a replica of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. So I don't know if you've ever seen it, but you can Google it. And maybe provide a picture for your listeners here on the podcast. [https://tempemosque.com/about-icc/] 

Dr. Jihad Turk: But it, you know, it's this beautiful space literally across the street from the university, and so I would find refuge in between classes there.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I was there one day for an afternoon prayer my freshman year, just kind of searching. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And part of the…exercise… one of the exercises that the scholar that I was studying with, the sheikh, had us do was to just do some introspection and, you know, ask us some profound questions about what makes us tick.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Like, what… what's our motivation? What's… why do we do what we do? Why do we present ourselves in the… in this world the way that we present ourselves?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I just remember, after the asr prayer, just sitting there.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… I don't really usually talk about this, but I had this ecstatic experience where I just felt like I ascended. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… was… you know, I think this is probably from, from the words of Emerson or Thoreau or someone, but I felt like I was a transparent eyeball...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: ...where I was, you know, out-of-body experience. I was, you know, God saw right through me, but I could also see.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I felt seen, like you felt seen that day, by those around you. I felt seen by the Divine.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… kind of… inner peace or tranquility that… has only ever been… approached ever since then.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But it was so profound that it is sufficient. It is sufficient.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: That has been a… That was a pivotal moment in my… in my journey. And, I've had other experiences similar, but nothing quite as profound as that one.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And the most profound things you really can't put into words, so I don't usually speak about that event.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I don't know what to say about it, other than what I've just shared.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I'll stop there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, thank you for sharing, you know.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Those… those profound experiences are they're what buoy our hearts and our souls through the rest of our lives.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I can…

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, I wouldn't… I wouldn't… Go ahead, finish.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: No, no please.

Dr. Jihad Turk: I wanted to maybe just share one, one attitude or posture that I carry with me when dealing with, oftentimes young people who identify as spiritual but not religious.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, my response to them is religion, when done right, which is a big caveat, by the way.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But religion, when done right, is spirituality plus three things that spirituality isn't. You know, it's 2 other things that spirituality alone doesn't, doesn't provide you.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So it's spiritual… it's three things, but two additional things. So it's spirituality, plus some self-discipline, because the religion is structured.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I'm not talking about hierarchical structure and an intermediary between you and God, but the five daily prayers, the fasting of the month of Ramadan, the, you know, the remembrance of God, and all of the little details that, you know, from how you dress to how you eat, and what you eat, and, you know, what you don't eat.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know that discipline is I would say, like, analogous to a sailboat.

Dr. Jihad Turk: For those who sail, you know that a sailboat has a sail above, but what you don't see is this keel, this kind of fin that goes under the boat.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And the deeper the keel the more that that boat can weather a big storm, because if you didn't have a keel, a wind would come and would tip you over. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, the sail would…be pushed over, and you would capsize. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: But if you have a deep keel, a deep fin underneath that boat it allows you to weather the toughest of storms. And I feel like the ritual and the discipline of religion in some ways, it's a deepening of your spiritual keel, so that you can weather whatever storm.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And then the last thing that religion offers you, that spirituality alone, I feel, does not, is a real sense of community.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Because… You know, no man is an island unto himself, or no woman an island unto herself. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so, to have people surrounding you, none of whom are perfect, by the way, but who are at least on the same journey as you to try and elevate their character, and to be mindful of God, and to be centered in their connection to the, you know, to center their connection to the Divine is encouraging to you when… sometimes those efforts wane to have those around you who can… can help pick you back up, and…and walk along with you, maybe with a helping hand.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Or to help you navigate over hurdles. Or around hurdles. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: That's something that religion, when done right, is beyond just spirituality.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But it is also spiritual because ultimately, when, when you have the community and you have the discipline, it just allows the spirituality to grow and develop in ways that, being sort of loosey-goosey, you know, defining yourself as spiritual, but without any sort of practice....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: You know, it's kind of interesting, because in Buddhism, it's mostly practice and not so much theology, right? There's, you know, Buddhism is known as a practice, generally and not a theology. But even though it's described as a world religion.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Practice is important. Practice is important to spirituality, and I feel that religion is that kind of individual, but also collective practice that makes spiritual… that makes spirituality… more possible, and more probable I would say.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I agree 100%. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I have to add, if you'll indulge me, that… that we don't know that where someone is today is not necessarily where someone is tomorrow. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I think… the reason I throw that in is just because… in my own spiritual journey, there was… growing up in such an exclusivist, conservative Christian church, and feeling so at dissonance with my experience there that I turned away from anything to do with religion.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If someone had said that you must be religious at that point in my life, I would have had such resistance and pushback against that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and I feel like it's only God that knows where we are today could be a completely different place from where we are tomorrow, which could be a different place from where we are the day after that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and so I feel that, like because I personally have experienced the divine hand moving me in ways that I never would have imagined, how can I have any judgment about whether… where someone else is in their journey, whether they are finding themselves located in a religion on that day, or not, because ultimately, I feel like… I don't know. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Like, I don't have any room to judge that, because it could be completely different than the… the…

Dr. Jihad Turk: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I… I was… what I was attempting to communicate was… was not judgment, because I agree with you fully. You know, we only see part of the picture, and. And, you know, only God knows our capacity and where we are in our journey.

Dr. Jihad Turk: My…you know, sort of stand or posture on that topic is really just to crack the door open for someone who has had a bad experience with a practice of religion to say, look, religion, when done right, can actually be a value add.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Perhaps you, you know, I'm not saying you have to, or I'm judging you for not being, but perhaps you might find a religious community and practice that will be fulfilling for you, and provide you that sense of meaning and purpose that you're seeking.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, you know, it's just to crack the door open, not to stand in judgment and to look down, and that's an important distinction. I thank you for… for raising that.

Dr. Jihad Turk: The response that people might have viscerally to what, you know the idea of religion having a negative or bitter taste in their mouth. Right.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Right, I mean, I… I went through that phase, where if you just said the word God, I'd have been like, any word, religion, just the word religion, any of that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so I really appreciate you bringing up the idea of opening the door, or cracking the door, I think you said. …

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because that's how I experienced Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal, whom I came to Islam through, I experienced him as opening a door. He cracked open the door, and he didn't say you have to be a Muslim. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: He said, essentially, and this is my, obviously, my paraphrasing it, but he was, you know, if you… if you know a religion, you know that there, all religion is basically love. There's basically one religion, it's the religion of love, and peace, and mercy. …

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and so that opened my heart, that cracked the door, and I could… through that, and then gradually, I got moved to a place of Oh, yes, I'm taking shahada, which, for the listeners who don't know, shahada is the testimony of faith in Islam.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet, it’s… we live in America, in the United States where there's a lot of Islamophobia.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: There's a lot of misperceptions about Islam. I know that my largely conservative Christian family, was not so enthusiastic when I… when I converted, or reverted, as you like, to Islam.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So… I appreciate, in your speaking about your professional journey and your spiritual journey, how they manifested in this way with Bayan, and the partnership with Bayan and Claremont School of Theology, and this idea of a consortium of faiths, where it's mutually getting to know each other and becoming better, better human beings in service of the world, in service of bringing peace, in service of bringing goodness and bringing benefit to others. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, given your unique perspective, can you just say one sentence or one word about the importance of interfaith engagement.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Sure. Well, I'll do so through the story of my name. You know, some of your listeners might be wondering, you know, Jihad, wait, doesn't that mean holy war?

Dr. Jihad Turk: Holy war is actually a Catholic, you know, Catholic idea that comes from the just war theory.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But, you know, my dad named the two boys in, you know, in our family, and my mom named the three girls. So, my dad chose Jihad, and so growing up in Phoenix, like I said, you're either black, white, or Mexican back in the 70s, and, you know, I played AYSO [American Youth Soccer Organization] soccer.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, as a kid, and so, you know, the teammates, they had never heard the word jihad before, the name Jihad, and so…you know, they started calling me J, you know, the first initial J.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, my father was busy, had the 3 jobs, all of that, and and I… I don't know, it must have been, like, 7, 8, 9, and the roster came out for my… for that… for the soccer team that year.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And it didn't have my name Jihad, it had J, J-A-Y Turk.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, you know, they made, my dad saw the roster, it was printed out, and, you know, sent with it.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So he… that game, that Saturday, he went to the game, which he didn't always do, but, you know, he did that week, and he had crossed out the word, you know, the name Jay, and he had, you know, handwritten J-I-H-A-D,

Dr. Jihad Turk: And, he made dittos, which are, you know, old school, you know, photocopies.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And he, started passing out to the parents on the sideline. I was like, you know, I'm like a kid, I just wanted to fit in, and I didn't really, you know… He goes, I was like, Dad, what are you doing? You're embarrassing me. He goes, no. Your name means the struggle to do the right thing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Jihad Turk: That's what jihad is. The inner struggle.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said it might be hard for people to say, because at that time it didn't have a negative connotation, it didn't have any connotation, it was just strange.

Dr. Jihad Turk: He said it might be, you know, unusual or strange or harder for people to say or remember, but it's worth that extra effort.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I've always gone by Jihad ever since then, and, you know, I was doing my PhD at UCLA when 9-11 happened, in Islamic studies.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so, I became a little bit of a walking teaching moment.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And sometimes people after 9-11 say, oh, you know, I'm so tired of having to represent Islam and Muslims, I had nothing to do with that, and…you know, why are they coming to me?

Dr. Jihad Turk: My attitude of posture is so different. It's… I never get tired of… of… responding to people's questions.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And to me, it's reaffirming of, you know, my American-ness and my humanity, when another human being who is bombarded with a certain paradigm or perspective, has the courage, because usually it's an honest question. It's like, oh, jihad, doesn't that mean holy war...

Dr. Jihad Turk: It's usually I'm not… you know, maybe it's just the circles I'm in, and, you know, I don't look the part.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And I see, you know, I don't have an accent, I, you know, culturally I'm American, and so, you know, people feel very comfortable in asking me, honestly. They say, oh, wait, what is, what is… tell me more.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I never get tired of it. To me, it's an opportunity for human connection, and I think that any kind of interfaith relation isn't an attempt to convert somebody as much as it is to, to share and to listen to each other's humanity and each other's aspirations of… of connection to each other and to the Divine.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so I think that that is part of our calling as human beings, is to be open to real dialogue, to real conversations. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: Not to dismiss differences. But to acknowledge differences, find beauty in differences.

Dr. Jihad Turk: But also have that common… that commonality that will allow us to work together in creating something more beautiful for this world, for ourselves and for next generations, generations to come.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So, that, I think, is the framework for any kind of interfaith dialogue, interreligious dialogue, any kind of interfaith cooperation and collaboration on real-world projects, whether it be feeding the homeless or education, you know, transformation for people's lives, helping with overcome addiction and abuse and, you know, shelters for people who've suffered abuse and mental health challenges, etc. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: Really creating, you know, having a, a welcoming environment for the formerly incarcerated to integrate back into the world, and you know, be contributing members to the betterment of the society and the community.

Dr. Jihad Turk: So I, you know, I think that there's… the real foundation is just that – that openness to connection, that desire to connect with other human beings instead of divide.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well… good sir, kind sir, generous of spirit. Thank you so much for all that you do, working together to make the world a better place.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And thank you for this opportunity to hear your spiritual story, and… yeah, thank you for the great conversation.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Well, I pray for your good health, your continued growth in your spiritual journey, and the success of, of this podcast, and for all that you do. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: May Allah make it easy for you, and make it fulfilling for you, and prepare you for that day in which you will stand before Him, for death is inevitable.

Dr. Jihad Turk: And it…even though you might not be ready for it now, this… this life's journey is a preparation for that day. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And… and a mature… the difference between a mature person and an immature person is how mindful they are, and prepared they are to stand before God in judgment, and have accountability for choices that they made, and behaviors that they manifested.

Dr. Jihad Turk: Not that we can earn God's grace, but that we might be more worthy of it, having tried our best. 

Dr. Jihad Turk: And so… and having been more mindful of God in how we treat each other during this short period of time that we have on this… this plane of existence.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And thank you to all listeners for joining us on Beyond Names. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Before we go, briefly, if you would please take one breath and pause and reflect for a moment on what stays with you from this conversation with Dr. Jihad Turk.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you connect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage. May you find your way again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the Divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment on this episode. Please follow Beyond Names. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.