From Separation to Unity: Spiritual Awakening, Truth & What Is Ours to Do with Cathy Antunes

What happens when a single moment reveals the truth of reality—and changes everything? In this deeply moving and wide-ranging conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with radio host Cathy Antunes to explore a profound spiritual awakening that began with the birth of her child—an experience of unity, love, and connection that challenged everything she had been taught about sin, separation, and the nature of God.

From her Irish Catholic roots to her journey through A Course in Miracles and ultimately Sufism, Cathy shares a path shaped by direct experience, inner knowing, and a relentless search for truth.

Together, Habīb and Cathy explore:

• the difference between religious teaching and lived spiritual reality;
• experiences of oneness and unitive love;
• the heart of Sufism and the inner path of Islam;
• activism, politics, and the role of spirituality in a fractured world;
• what it means to “do your part” without losing your center; and
• the power of humility, being teachable, and returning to the heart.

This episode is both mystical and practical—an invitation to reconnect with the light within, to stand in truth, and to embody compassion and courage in a complex world.

Whether you’ve had a spiritual awakening or not, this conversation offers a powerful reminder: the path back to unity begins within. 

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 41

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Cathy Antunes

Title: From Separation to Unity: Spiritual Awakening, Truth & What Is Ours to Do with Cathy Antunes

Description: What happens when a single moment reveals the truth of reality—and changes everything? In this deeply moving and wide-ranging conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with radio host Cathy Antunes to explore a profound spiritual awakening that began with the birth of her child—an experience of unity, love, and connection that challenged everything she had been taught about sin, separation, and the nature of God.

From her Irish Catholic roots to her journey through A Course in Miracles and ultimately Sufism, Cathy shares a path shaped by direct experience, inner knowing, and a relentless search for truth.

Together, Habīb and Cathy explore:

• the difference between religious teaching and lived spiritual reality;
• experiences of oneness and unitive love;
• the heart of Sufism and the inner path of Islam;
• activism, politics, and the role of spirituality in a fractured world;
• what it means to “do your part” without losing your center; and
• the power of humility, being teachable, and returning to the heart.

This episode is both mystical and practical—an invitation to reconnect with the light within, to stand in truth, and to embody compassion and courage in a complex world.

Whether you’ve had a spiritual awakening or not, this conversation offers a powerful reminder: the path back to unity begins within.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who aren't sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Hashem, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher Power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the life that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with the introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Cathy Antunes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Cathy Antunes had a successful career in executive sales with 3 Fortune 500 companies. Now, she is a radio host, a writer, and she serves on the boards of local civic nonprofits.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: She's a fan of the public good, facilitating local debates and town halls with candidates and public officials. She also writes a blog on Substack, and her guest columns have appeared in numerous Florida and national publications.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We met through the University of Sufism. Cathy also holds a Master's of Divinity in Ministry from the University of Sufism, where she also served on the faculty.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Cathy and her work, please visit cathyantunesubstack.com.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Her radio show is called The Detail, and it is on WSLR, and that is at WSLR.org.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Cathy, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, the way I ask conversation partners to introduce themselves is by telling their spiritual story. So, would you please to, of course, to the extent you feel comfortable.

Cathy Antunes: That might take a while, but…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: As you like, you can take as much time or as little time as you feel....

Cathy Antunes: So, I, you know, I got to start with… I am… I am the granddaughter of Irish immigrants. All of my grandparents are from Ireland.

Cathy Antunes: So my parents were first-generation Americans from Irish immigrants who just, were so grateful to come to this country.

Cathy Antunes: And so I was raised Irish Catholic, and, I have to say, you know, my husband is Brazilian, and I joked with him when we were dating, because he would go to church because he wanted to meet girls.

Cathy Antunes: And so ... I know, and I… but, you know, he was sort of like the Easter Sunday, Christmas, you know, and we were at Mass every week.

Cathy Antunes: You know, we would kind of joke on Christmas, because the parking lot was full, and it was hard to find a parking space. 

Cathy Antunes: So I was really raised by very devoted parents in their faith.

Cathy Antunes: And then, I had an experience when I had my first child, which is actually quite an emotional experience when I bring it up.

Cathy Antunes: But it was around the time when he was supposed to be baptized.

Cathy Antunes: And I'd never really felt in my heart that this idea of original sin was… was the reality.

Cathy Antunes: And, you know, my ex-husband, he was … he's actually also Irish, and the whole, like, Protestant Catholic.

Cathy Antunes: He had a Protestant mom and a Catholic dad, and it was a real source of conflict for them when they were dating. Their parents were also immigrants. So he was uncomfortable with baptism and Catholicism for understandable reasons. 

Cathy Antunes: And I didn’t ... in my heart, I didn't really think it was needed, you know? I just couldn't believe that this baby was born in sin.

Cathy Antunes: So, one morning, he was around 3 months old, and I just decided, I'm just going to play with him, you know?

Cathy Antunes: Because there's always things to do when you're a new mom, but I decided, I'm just going to… I'm just going to spend some time with him.

Cathy Antunes: And what happened was, like, this veil was lifted.

Cathy Antunes: And I got to experience everything was connected.

Cathy Antunes: He and I were connected. The world was one.

Cathy Antunes: And it was an experience of ecstasy. It was bliss. 

Cathy Antunes: And I knew in a way that I knew in my head that he was not born in sin. But this was different. This was tasting it; this was my heart.

Cathy Antunes: And so… it was… it was so amazing and so beautiful, and… and it was shocking that I was sort of like, okay, okay, I've had enough now, you know?

Cathy Antunes: I wasn't used to that, and in Sufis we would say I didn't have the container to hold it. You know?

Cathy Antunes: It freaked me out. Even though I got it. I'm like, this is … this is God, you know?

Cathy Antunes: And… and I was being shown something that was the real truth, so it was far more… people say, you know, it was more real than ... than our everyday life.

Cathy Antunes: This, I knew, was the truth. So, I kind of pulled myself… I was, like, kind of drowning, and I wanted to get myself out of it, so I did come back.

Cathy Antunes: And I just was like … it, you know, it changed my… my experience of the theology, but… and the teaching, but I was just like, what happened, you know? What happened to me?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: And… and I'm like, I want that to be my reality.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Cathy Antunes: And I knew that, I… I knew that I… I wanted to find a way to ... to access that.

Cathy Antunes: I wanted to learn about what happened. And I think growing up, too, I was very much, you know, listening to stories in Mass about the Bible, and the prophets, and Jesus, alayhi wa-salam [peace be upon him], all of these amazing holy people, and I'm like, where are they now? 

Cathy Antunes: Like, are we really without any holy people now? Like… is it… I just felt like there's more.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: You know? So, after that experience, I started searching.

Cathy Antunes: And it was interesting, because I was, shortly after that, moved to New York City, and I saw Marianne Williamson on public access.

Cathy Antunes: She was not well known, but she was talking about things that I'm like, you know, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Cathy Antunes: I've always thought that. And so, she was talking about A Course in Miracles, and at that time those books were sold in New York out of somebody's home, a brownstone somewhere, so I found out where to get them, and I went, and I got them.

Cathy Antunes: And I studied A Course in Miracles probably a good 10 years, and then kind of transitioned to Unity Church.

Cathy Antunes: And for me those paths were… were really helpful, but they only took me so far. 

Cathy Antunes: Like, I felt like I was in… heading in the right direction, but ... but it didn't take me all the way.

Cathy Antunes: And then, you know, I'm from New York, and, I had moved down here to Sarasota. I had been a military spouse. My ex was in the service doing medical, you know, scholarship and payback time, so we moved quite a bit.

Cathy Antunes: And when I moved to Sarasota, my… I was calling on… on clients, physicians in my sales career.

Cathy Antunes: And one of my doctors I called on, we got to be friendly.

Cathy Antunes: She was into alternative medicine as well as allopathic medicine, and she became my doctor.

Cathy Antunes: And she said to me, we talked about spirituality, and she said, I've found something you're going to love. You're going to love. You have to come to this workshop.

Cathy Antunes: And so it was, like, September… it was, like a 3-day workshop, September 8th to September 10th of 2001 or September 7th to September 9th, 2001.

Cathy Antunes: And so I went. And it was… it was a Sufi workshop. It was called A Taste of the Love. 

Cathy Antunes: And… and the practices, I… I'm like, ugh, I feel this in my heart, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: And I'm like, this… this will take me all the way. You know?

Cathy Antunes: And I think for, you know, on a spiritual path, it's often like that, right? You… you just… it clicks.

Cathy Antunes: And so, I knew that this would take me all the way to… back to that…that place that I had felt before.

Cathy Antunes: And, and, you know, it was… these were Sufi practices, which is the esoteric Islam.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Right? The inner, the outer, and the inner, but emphasis on the heart.

Cathy Antunes: So, you know, it was a great workshop. I met one of my major teachers, Salima Adelstein, and I was just like, okay, this, this is great. And I had done a lot of workshops before. This, this for me was very different.

Cathy Antunes: And then on Tuesday, September 11th, you know, that was a big day for anybody in this country.

Cathy Antunes: But I had a lot of family in New York City.

Cathy Antunes: My brother worked at World Trade 4.

Cathy Antunes: And it was funny, because that summer before 9-11, and I think New Yorkers are like this, you know. I had never been to the World Trade Towers, and I was visiting… it was July 4th weekend.

Cathy Antunes: And I said to my kids, let's go, you know, to the World Trade Center. It was, like, something inside me, you know, I was being prodded to go, and so we did.

Cathy Antunes: And so that event was very palpable for my children, too, because they had… they had been to the towers just 2 months prior to that attack.

Cathy Antunes: But I knew, you know, my brother… my brother was… worked in World Trade 4, and he… he told me, he felt that explosion in… in the subway.

Cathy Antunes: And when he got out, he… he said he knew something was happening, and he just started walking back uptown, you know, back home.

Cathy Antunes: My mom was down at, she worked for… for the city in their legal department.  

Cathy Antunes: She was near City Hall, I guess, and so she was walking uptown on the east side. And we couldn't get in touch with her.

Cathy Antunes: I had a sister in Midtown who I called, and I said, you’ve got to turn on your TV. She didn't know what was happening.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Cathy Antunes: Cousin… a cousin who… who… worked at Goldman Sachs, and my sister-in-law worked at Goldman, and they, you know, was very close to… they could see out their window.

Cathy Antunes: So that event was obviously traumatic, and for… for the country.

Cathy Antunes: But it was like God had said… He had shown me the inner reality of those teachings right before an event that… you know, had I not had that experience ahead of time, I certainly could have been resistant, you know, to Sufism, or to Islam, to those teachings.

Cathy Antunes: But it just showed… it was such a lesson for me in… there's… there's… the pure truth of a teaching, which all religions at their core, there's so much truth, right?

Cathy Antunes: We agree on so much more than we disagree.

Cathy Antunes: But then there's what people do with it, right?

Cathy Antunes: And there's how people make mistakes with it, or how they twist it, and how they create cultural identities that they slap on top of a message. 

Cathy Antunes: So… So, I came to… to this teaching that has just been a wonderful opening for me. Grounding.

Cathy Antunes: It's given me this, ability to… embrace practices that… that cultivate an inner connection with our Creator.

Cathy Antunes: And we're all going to do that. I mean, if He… if Allah… God had wanted to make one religion, He could have done that.

Cathy Antunes: You know, it's one of the lovely things the Quran has to say, is… you know, there's variety in the creation that you might know each other, that you might learn from each other, that… and that… you know, one thing about our Creator is… there's just… endless variety, right? 

Cathy Antunes: So… So it really changed my perspective, and I love this path, and for me, it's like, you can't do these prayers and not be changed.

Cathy Antunes: You know, there's a hadith that says, when you call… when you take one step toward Allah, toward God, He takes 10 toward you. If you go running toward Him, He… or if you go walking toward Him, He comes running toward you. 

Cathy Antunes: And, yeah, you know, that fierce love of a mother, which I experienced, you know, when you have a baby, it sort of like blows your heart wide open. 

Cathy Antunes: You just, as a woman, it's just very physical, the experience, but it takes you to a different level. 

Cathy Antunes: And I'm like, well, if I feel that, right, about my child, how much more… does… does God feel for… for His creation?

Cathy Antunes: So… and I found, you know, I found all that in… in Sufism. 

Cathy Antunes: So yeah, so I'm very grateful for the teaching, and it's sad to see. And I'm grateful for my upbringing, for the beauty and the truth that... that my parents gave me. You know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: So that's kind of my story. I could talk more, but… but that's, that's it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… you certainly went somewhere I never anticipated.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, sometimes I think I should put on my bio somewhere, like I talk about politics and religion, and I make a very polite dinner guest, right?

Cathy Antunes: Because, you know, it's like we're warned, oh, don't talk politics or religion.

Cathy Antunes: But really, these are pretty core topics, right... 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: that, that… that shape our lives. So, we need to talk, we need to talk about them.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Indeed.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'll… I'll confess that… I've been so, honestly, angered by islamophobia...

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: this… in my family, in this country that I've always been….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I've always had this weird relationship with the…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I don't know what the right word… relationship's not the right word, but I… this… this… how do I hold the events of 9-11 and… and hold all of the pain that we have experienced individually and collectively around such an event, and at the same time, stand up for -- this is not the truth of my religion.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And what you're doing with this event is really in disservice not only to your own heart and your own soul and your own mind, but it's a disservice to the rest of us.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: When you take something and, and make it untrue, you know.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And in what you were talking about, you had this wonderful experience of truth, with a capital T, with your son.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You got a sense of reality with a capital R.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, it was… yeah.

Cathy Antunes: And it… it was, like, shocking in the best way. Right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: But the idea that, you know, we… we build barriers and shield ourselves, actually, from… from… the power of… of love. Right?

Cathy Antunes: We get wounded, and if you look at babies, if you're with a baby, right? Even if you don't have that kind of experience, but there's just an openness and a joy, and one of the things that, again, as a mother, you know, there's this nature, nurture question, and I'm sure both are important, but I can tell you that that baby has… their configuration of being, right?

Cathy Antunes: Like, there's a way that God has put all these different qualities and attributes in that child that as a mother, you know, they don't have language, but I knew, like, like, he knows what he wants, right?

Cathy Antunes: He can't communicate it to me, by talking, but there's a way that they are. They have their way of being in the world, that's… that's them from the start, you know, like… very observant, or… or, you know, very active.

Cathy Antunes: Like, you just see this, and you realize, like, I did not… that… that is him, right?

Cathy Antunes: That was not something that I put there, I mean, that's just his nature. 

Cathy Antunes: And so, I'm trying to get back now to what you're talking about. 

Cathy Antunes: So people… You see the… you see what… what happens with a child, and they carry….

Cathy Antunes: I was just reading something... because, you know, there are people who have the gift of clairvoyance, or they can see, more esoteric realities and this… this author, he was talking about being in London and seeing all these, like, 5- or 6-year-olds going to the playground, and that the light of their hearts was just like a sun, you know?

Cathy Antunes: Like kids just have this sunshine.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: And that gets covered over, right? As we become adults, which, by the way, you know, one of the things I love, too, in the stories of…of creation and Adam and Eve, and the inner meanings in the Sufi tradition, but… if God… God knew they were going to make that mistake, right? 

Cathy Antunes: So, it's… it's like… the mistake was part of the plan.

Cathy Antunes: Like, the physical world is tough.

Cathy Antunes: And as a spiritual being in a body, the trap is identifying with the world.

Cathy Antunes: You know, that's just a trap that when you come in as a child, you're not… you're not identified, and you have to learn how to navigate the world, and your parents take care of you, and teach you, and all of that.

Cathy Antunes: And inevitably, you have to unlearn a lot of it.

Cathy Antunes: And so, when you see people… one of the things our guide, Sidi Muhammad al-Jamal was his name.

Cathy Antunes: And we were privileged to… to spend time with him.

Cathy Antunes: But he would say, you know, explode the mountain of your existence.

Cathy Antunes: Like… like, with Islam, what happened to me in that moment was the small Cathy was not… I wasn't operating from the small self, and I wasn't seeing… and my… my son didn't have one yet. 

Cathy Antunes: He didn't have that small self. He was just… he was in unity with God.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yep.

Cathy Antunes: And…we create our… our identities, which you kind of have to. I mean, you're in a body, you're in the world, and you need one. Right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Cathy Antunes: But people take that, you know, you look at bombers of 9-11, or corrupt politicians, right? Who think, or, you know, oligarchs, it's like, he who has the most toys wins at the end of the… and, you know, that's not the truth.

Cathy Antunes: But it's a trap of the world, and so what happens with these abominations… people doing abominable things is they've just become so covered over, and so identified with… you know, the world, with their thoughts about how things are going to have to be.

Cathy Antunes: And my way is the right way. And your way is the wrong way.

Cathy Antunes: And my people, and you're, you know, it's so much making separation.

Cathy Antunes: And it's very human.

Cathy Antunes: But it… it… when it gets… when it gets taken to that… you know, the evil that happens in the world, it's obviously really sad.

Cathy Antunes: and I think for… for people of faith, regardless of your faith, to be always turning it to… to God, to the God we all pray to and just surrendering the grief, surrendering the emotion, and then being asked… asking to be guided. 

Cathy Antunes: Okay, what… what do I do now? What… what's my part in this? How do I contribute to a better world?

Cathy Antunes: And… and all of us are needed, you know? And it's…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: it's a lesson for all of us.

Cathy Antunes: We're not separate from it.

Cathy Antunes: We may not be doing it.

Cathy Antunes: But we're, we're participating in this world, in this collective reality that we've… we're making, and…

Cathy Antunes: So we have… we have a part to play in… without… without losing heart, you know?

Cathy Antunes: We have our own practice to… and we have our families to take care of, and our own lives to take care of, so… so not to be overwhelmed, but to… to do your part.

Cathy Antunes: It's… it's… it can be a lot. It feels like a lot, certainly. Certain events, and what's happening now in Iran, and…it is heavy, and it's important that we do that work.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I want to come back to the idea of doing your part and doing the work that you're mentioning, but I also want to circle back to this experience that I… I might use the word spiritual awakening.

Cathy Antunes: Hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: When I think of those experiences in my… in my life, I think of them as the experiences of the unity, of the oneness, like, the lack of separation between anything.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Like, the lack of separation between humanity and God, but also the lack of separation between humanity and the rest of humanity. Like, just true oneness, where…

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: where there is only… there is only one, there is no I, as in there is no self.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that that oneness is an all-encompassing love that is truly beyond any of our ability to read and fully perceive, to… to understand, to express, just this… the one love, the unitive love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Those are just some of the words that I would use to describe it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So what I'm wanting to do is make a connection between that and, you know, what is ours to do?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I can't help but think that for many of us, I don't know that everybody has those kind of experiences.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I don't know that everybody find themselves seeking in such a way that they say, oh, I'm going to embark on doing these spiritual practices, that I want to purposefully engage in this purification of the outer and the purification of the ego self, and that I… my intention is to achieve a state of higher consciousness. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Or maybe not achieve, that's not a word I like to use in association with spirituality, but what I'm saying is that, a long-winded way of saying that I don't know that everybody has that experience, right? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That my neighbor Jane and my neighbor Joe, they might not have the experience of a unitive love, or of the one love, or their conception of God might not be that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, I was wondering… if you have anything to offer, you know… those that haven't tasted that in that way, or an invitation, or....

Cathy Antunes: You know, you see… we're very… as human beings, in a physical experience like we are, there's a lot of focus on the outer, on form, and there's a couple things your question brings up. 

Cathy Antunes: One is that most people want to be happy. Right.

Cathy Antunes: They're… they're looking, you know, most people… at least… on some level, are going to be wanting to have some joy in their life.

Cathy Antunes: And, you know, I have friends who… are… adamantly, agnostic or atheist, but what I see them doing in their life, is… is… community, is beauty, is truth.

Cathy Antunes: You know, in that creation story, and it was always so… it struck me when I was reading them, read the Quran a couple times, or a number of times now, that, the idea of man being made in the image of God, same idea in the Bible.

Cathy Antunes: And what is that? Well, in Sufism, it's the qualities of God, right?

Cathy Antunes: It is peace, mercy, justice, freedom, beauty, all kinds of beautiful qualities, friendship, love.

Cathy Antunes: So, we carry these qualities, and you know, there are people who claim to be super spiritual and maybe they're not necessarily engaged in those qual… you know, embodying those qualities.

Cathy Antunes: And then there are those who say, no, I'm, you know, and may have very understandable reasons for rejecting religion or the ideas of God. You know, there's a phrase, Jesus, save me from your followers.

Cathy Antunes: Like there are ways that what people do with a teaching or with a religion is… can be a lot about their own wounding, and not necessarily really the teaching.

Cathy Antunes: And so, you know, like I say, you know, I see people who… who say that they're not wanting God or following God, but then what they're doing in their life is just full of those qualities.

Cathy Antunes: It's full of beauty, it's full of love, it's full of peace, it's full of care for other people.

Cathy Antunes: So I'm trying to get… but now, what was your question again? 

Cathy Antunes: I look… I look at… at that, and if you… if you're following your heart, because… again, you know, we come in, humans are lit from within with a divine connection.

Cathy Antunes: You are not beating your own heart. You know?

Cathy Antunes: There is a power that is, you know, Jesus, Isa, alayhi wa-salam [peace be upon him] said, in Him we live and move and have our being.

Cathy Antunes: And that is… that is what… a good description of what I felt, and what I experienced. That… that unity. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Like your existence… your talents… yes, you studied, yes, but the aptitudes that you've been given, the opportunities that have come to you, your breathing, your breath, your heartbeat -- so much of… of that is not… It's not driven by you.

Cathy Antunes: You know? It's a gift. 

Cathy Antunes: And so, Allah catches in his net whom He will, right? Like, Sufism isn't going to be for everybody. For some people, it's going to be nature. For some people, it's going to be yoga. For some people, it's going to be Catholicism.

Cathy Antunes: And if God hadn't wanted to make us all the same religion, He could have done that, and He didn't. You know?

Cathy Antunes: So for me, it's like… if you trust… if people are connecting within themselves, to that source, you know, and to the extent that people look outside themselves for that, through substances, or… or power, it's not going to… it's not going to be fulfilling, you know, because that's not where it is.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Couple things that I'm… I'm just going to repeat what I… and synthesize ...

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: what I got out of that response is that part of the invitation, I think, for anybody, for any listener that might not have had those tastings of unitive love...

Cathy Antunes: Mmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: is to follow your heart, to follow your own heart, yes, and then part of that is connect to Source within you, and within your own… within the beauty of your own qualities, of what is… of what is within you. So those are the… just to sort of pare it down into two little…

Cathy Antunes: Yeah. The power that's beating your heart is… is… has enlivened you.

Cathy Antunes: If you connect with your own being and… and look for that joy, it shows up.

Cathy Antunes: And I think most people actually have… maybe they haven't had that kind of experience I've described, but they've experienced joy, you know? So…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: They’ve held a baby. 

Cathy Antunes: Yeah! Right!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Or a puppy, or…

Cathy Antunes: Right, you follow your bliss, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: or sit on a mountaintop.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, or you've planned a garden, and you've planted a garden, or you've figured out a really cool math problem.

Cathy Antunes: I mean, science is a really great manifestation of… of divinity in… from where I am, it's like my gosh, how does all this work? Just the fact that you and I can talk to each other like this, and it's being reported and all that.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, so there's, there's just so many avenues that lead us back there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, as you know, one of the main reasons that I wanted to have a conversation with you is I wanted to speak to this intersection of faith and spirituality and activism, politics, social justice, because it seems that we're… we're living in times that are especially challenging and especially intense.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I mean, whether it's what's happening in Iran and Lebanon right now, whether it's what's happening in Palestine, whether it's Venezuela, or… the people who are starving in Cuba right now, whether it's within the United States, and so many people being detained, and their rights not being honored, or being subject to violence by ICE, or….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And the list goes on, right?

Cathy Antunes: Yep.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We look across the world, Somalia, Sudan, and, and, and....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So can you speak to how do we engage in the w- In the ways that we can that do, in fact, reflect this commitment to the… the beauty that the Divine has put within us?

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: You know, there's… there's a teaching, you talk about the oneness and… and that we are all connected, like what Jesus said, whatever you do, to the least of my brothers, that you… you don't to me. 

Cathy Antunes: Like, that was a… a song when I was growing up that that person is not separate from you, or from… from Jesus, and if you're doing that to them, you're doing it to him.

Cathy Antunes: And in the Quran, it talks about, you know, to kill… to kill one person is, like, killing all of humanity.

Cathy Antunes: So it's really clear that we're not to be doing that.

Cathy Antunes: And at the same time, you do see times when there's persecution, like Hitler, right?

Cathy Antunes: When people are being persecuted, tortured, mistreated that… that fighting that… is… is an allowed response, you know? Like, sometimes you do pick up a sword.

Cathy Antunes: But to pick it up for oil is not, you know… that's… that's not, that's not right.

Cathy Antunes: You know, what do people do? 

Cathy Antunes: Well I think we're seeing in the United States, and, you know, God gives… there's so much mercy and time that it takes a lot of time, I think, for… for the collective people, because we're living our lives, we're raising our children, and… and often for an idea to penetrate that some people think is very obvious, but it takes time for the whole group to really understand and see it, and unfortunately it often takes pain for people to understand and see it.

Cathy Antunes: And that can be very frustrating, right?

Cathy Antunes: So, what do you do? You know, I look at what's going on in the United States is when you have a certain proportion of people who stand in truth, right?

Cathy Antunes: When… it doesn't have to be everybody, but when there are enough people who… who are not in… who embrace their hearts, courage is… is… the French word for heart is cour… courage is from the heart, you know?

Cathy Antunes: When you're… and it… and the teaching in Sufism and Islam is you only surrender to God, right?

Cathy Antunes: And the first commandment in all three Abrahamic religions is I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me. What does that mean?

Cathy Antunes: You know, you don't put money before God. You don't put power before God.

Cathy Antunes: You… you stand… to really, whatever your faith, to pray with sincerity and ask to be guided for your next step is a radical thing to do, you know? It really is the heart of any activism.

Cathy Antunes: And you know, activism doesn't necessarily mean I'm on TV leading a protest. Right?

Cathy Antunes: It… it's a decision inside in every aspect of your life, to just follow the truth, and the love, right, and peace, and mercy, and justice. I mean, you know, there's a balance here. 

Cathy Antunes: The symbol for justice is… you know, a woman blindfolded, holding a scale, that things are weighed, right? We don't live in a black and white world. It'd be a lot easier if we did. We don't live in a world where everybody's the same color, the same religion, right? 

Cathy Antunes: And there's… and… and situations have to be measured, it's… it can be difficult.

Cathy Antunes: But to just stand with, you know, the quality of truth, al-Haqq, the truth of God.

Cathy Antunes: And ask for God to show you what the truth. We all have our idea of what the truth is, but to be open to, okay, please show me what the truth is here. Please change my heart to understand, whatever is blocking me from understanding.

Cathy Antunes: And then moving forward in compassion, and… and courage and peace.

Cathy Antunes: And I, you know, I think we're seeing this. If you look at what happened in Minnesota and the murder of two American citizens who were exercising their constitutional right to say, no, I am not on board with this.

Cathy Antunes: And the response of the country. Now, it's sad that it has to get to that point, you know?

Cathy Antunes: But… it's simply… you know, it's just like the collective is saying, this is unacceptable, and yes, there are ways we've been asleep, and we need to wake up.

Cathy Antunes: You know, we need to wake up. We need to wake up. What is this country? What are we doing with our tax money? How are we impacting other countries? You know.

Cathy Antunes: What is the real motivation for what our government's doing? Who are we putting in charge, you know?

Cathy Antunes: But I, I think that… the… there is a collective vibe, energy, right? We're all really made of light, electrons, atoms.

Cathy Antunes: But when we stand in that… in that truth, things change.

Cathy Antunes: Like… You're doing your work on an inner level. Talking with neighbors. Looking at your assumptions, being willing to question, being willing to learn. 

Cathy Antunes: Like, one of the… When Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount in the Aramaic, it's been mistranslated that blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. That's not what the Aramaic means. It's blessed are the teachable.

Cathy Antunes: Blessed are the teachable for they will inherit the earth.

Cathy Antunes: The minute we stop acting like we have it all figured out and we're willing for… for our connection, to cultivate our connection with our higher power and… to have that animate us and move us, things shift.

Cathy Antunes: It's not a small thing. If we're all doing that, the world's going to be on the right track.

Cathy Antunes: And you know, the other thing that I've seen with our cultural zeitgeist in the past, I don't know, 10, 15 years is a disrespect for education.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Cathy Antunes: And, you know, and also, like, an anti… college education versus blue collar.

Cathy Antunes: Like, we make these separations regarding what people know, and how smart they are and all that, but it's kind of used as a way to downgrade the teachings of people who have something to tell us that's important, right?

Cathy Antunes: So, you know, I'll give you an example.

Cathy Antunes: You know, I studied history, which doesn't make me an expert. But it means I've spent some time, right, with the topic. 

Cathy Antunes: And I was engaged in a conversation online and someone was like, well, what are you saying, you're smarter than me?

Cathy Antunes: Oh, no, I'm not saying that.

Cathy Antunes: And, you know, when I have… when I have someone come fix my AC, which, I live in Florida, so I need my AC. Right?

Cathy Antunes: It's the only reason people live here now, so we have AC.

Cathy Antunes: So it's, you know, it's always been a guy, so a man comes to take care of my AC, and he knows things I don't know. And I need… I need his knowledge. I actually need it for me to have a comfortable life.

Cathy Antunes: And I do respect that this person has studied something, and understands something, and I am benefiting from it, and I pay that person.

Cathy Antunes: And… And… I'm not saying, Tim, do you think I'm stupid? You know, do you think you're smarter than me?

Cathy Antunes: I understand that, okay, there's been an investment of time and expertise.

Cathy Antunes: But it's the same with this political stuff.

Cathy Antunes: I think we really… and you need to be careful about who you're taking information from.

Cathy Antunes: And… and also, be respectful that, yeah, there are people who dedicated their lives to understanding diplomacy, to understanding why certain countries do what they do, to understanding how to put water systems in place. You know, we need all of it.

Cathy Antunes: And… and it's important, and I'm getting back to that original sin idea that so bear with me. 

Cathy Antunes: You know, the beautiful thing for me… Sufism resonated for me, because I really… it's a path that teaches you that you came in with a beautiful soul, And… and you're a creation of God.

Cathy Antunes: And yeah, it's your job to… the world's going to wound you. And the unlearning of that, and the coming into your connection as an adult who can navigate the world, but stays connected, stays aligned with God is, like, the challenge of this world..

Cathy Antunes: That's the victory in the world. It's not how much money, it's not how big your house is, it's not what your position is, right?.

Cathy Antunes: God looks into our hearts and… and sees where we're at.

Cathy Antunes: So… in the political propaganda of the world, or the social jockeying for position, it's not like that at all. 

Cathy Antunes: And we need to guard against being sucked in by that.

Cathy Antunes: And… appreciating what each person brings to the table.

Cathy Antunes: Because we need to transform our country, our world.

Cathy Antunes: We've been led into… I mean, it's, you know, one of the things that comforts me is God's in charge.

Cathy Antunes: No matter what's going on. God’s in charge.

Cathy Antunes: And nothing's going to happen unless it's permitted. And yes, bad things happen in the world.

Cathy Antunes: And if this were the only place... you know, to me, there was a place we were before, we're here, we're going on somewhere else.

Cathy Antunes: But we're here to learn something, we're here to transform this place, and so everybody's important, and everybody's got that connection to make. 

Cathy Antunes: And if we're all doing that, the world works, you know? 

Cathy Antunes: It's just… But it… But the harshness and the terrors and the things that happen are a result of people making separation, not seeing the humanity in other people, putting money first, putting power first. 

Cathy Antunes: The otherness. You know, they're this. They're… they're… they're not like me.

Cathy Antunes: And, you know, you put two little kids together of different, you know, Palestinian and Israeli little kids, they're going to play. You know?

Cathy Antunes: So we, we… we just need to get back to that in ourselves, and and we'll be good.

Cathy Antunes: But it's… it is a very tough time right now.

Cathy Antunes: And we need…

Cathy Antunes: The world needs light, so whatever your light is to shine that is very important right now.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So again, just to… Some of the… some of the key points...

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Having respect for each other, returning to our innate goodness, the goodness that we carried when we came into the world, and our souls, and our hearts.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Being careful around how we get information, and pairing, excuse me, pairing that with a consciousness of and respect for expertise.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And recognizing where there is expertise and where there is not expertise.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that's kind of just a way of being careful and caring for ourselves, as well as caring for each other, just having this sort of consciousness, this awareness of people, who they are, what their expertise is, what their motivations are, and so forth.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then, of course, I have to emphasize the point that you said about being teachable, that to be in the world today, there needs to be a level of being… of awareness, but also a level of being open to learn, and to let go. And to allow information, new information in.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, your whole life. Right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Your whole life.

Cathy Antunes: Your whole life. 

Cathy Antunes: You know, I'm 62. And I'm so grateful to be living in a time of such you know, technological advancement, and so much interesting information out there.

Cathy Antunes: And… and at the same time, there's a lot of deception that we have to be aware of but it keeps you… it keeps you young, it keeps you mentally, spiritually fit to recognize, like, the more you realize you don't know, is when you know, right?

Cathy Antunes: Like, the not knowing is the knowing.

Cathy Antunes: Like, God knows everything, and it's our job to be open and learn is a pretty powerful thing. 

Cathy Antunes: But it… and it also removes arrogance. Like, arrogance is a big trap that… that keeps us from our… our good.

Cathy Antunes: And… You know, when I say all this stuff, at the same time, like, one of the things I do in my work, and I focus on local government here, is call out corruption.

Cathy Antunes: And it's not about whether the person is good or bad, because, I mean, everybody's got that innate goodness, I believe that.

Cathy Antunes: But… but… we're all subject to making mistakes.

Cathy Antunes: So… calling out to be able to stand in truth, right?

Cathy Antunes: To call something out in a way that's just simply about the truth.

Cathy Antunes: It's not about whether the person, you know, is good or bad. There's… That's up to… that's God's judgment to make. Right?

Cathy Antunes: Everybody's a creation of God, but… but it is our job to look at how our society is functioning. 

Cathy Antunes: And it is our job to say, yeah, you know, what you're doing with this money over here, is… is not right, you know?

Cathy Antunes: If you're… you're taking care of corporate entities… And… I mean, they're not people. 

Cathy Antunes: That should be obvious but we're in a country right now that's giving corporations the rights of human beings.

Cathy Antunes: And human beings are… the needs of human beings are being subservient to a corporate welfare, like, literally and figuratively. This is insane. Right? This is insane.

Cathy Antunes: It is not what was imagined by the founders of this country. 

Cathy Antunes: The country was founded as a cash cow for other powers. It's kind of in our DNA that we have to clean this. The profit motive and all of that, and slavery, using people, for your own economic benefit.

Cathy Antunes: We haven't cleaned this yet. You know, we've done some, but we haven't cleaned it entirely, and calling it out is… is critical.

Cathy Antunes: And it's not just calling it out for the people whose ancestors had been for their benefit, it's for our benefit.

Cathy Antunes: Like, if you're a white person, you know, it is not serving you to ignore what's been done with your brothers and sisters who are people of color. Right?

Cathy Antunes: So… you know, there's a kind of New Age-y spirituality, which I think is… is… does a disservice to us, in that it's like, well, you know, I don't want to get my hands dirty spirituality.

Cathy Antunes:. Well, it's all… all of us need to be willing to look, right? And be willing to learn, and to be willing to do our part to create a better world.

Cathy Antunes: And… you know, the thing for me about Sufism that I like, and that I feel is the truth is that it's… it's not about my will. What God has planned for me is so much better.

Cathy Antunes: And that's been my experience. That… that when I surrender to God what's in store for me is… is better, often better than I could imagine. Right?

Cathy Antunes: And… to… to call out the ways the society isn't working, and to advocate for a just society for all people comes back to you and… and serves everybody else.

Cathy Antunes: And so… so there's a way, like, oh, you… you create your own reality, like, on one level, that is… I see the truth in that. Our attitudes and our… the way we are in the world, it does impact the world.

Cathy Antunes: But I got to come back to God's in charge. Right?

Cathy Antunes: I'm not going to look at that homeless person and go, well, you know, he created his own reality, so I mean, it's really on him. 

Cathy Antunes: Which is… which I think is… is… there's a way that… that things get tainted, right? I mean, we're seeing a lot of…

Cathy Antunes: And having been reared in a very Christian Catholic household, we're just seeing a perversion of these values where… it… it's… 

Cathy Antunes: You know, Jesus was liberal. He… He took care of the poor. He made a pretty big deal about that. Like, this is…

Cathy Antunes: And if you're given these talents and this wealth, which you are not going to take with you, what's it for?

Cathy Antunes: You can only have so many… things.

Cathy Antunes: So anyway, it, it's… it's something we all have to look at, and so when I say all this stuff, there is a place for the sword of truth.

Cathy Antunes: There is a place for calling things out, and you can do it in a way that's clear, in a way that's unifying. 

Cathy Antunes: Like, one of the things I study is dark money locally, and I write about… because we've had ridiculous amounts of PAC money for school board elections. Right?

Cathy Antunes: For county commission elections. Like, over a million dollars for county commission election. Why? 

Cathy Antunes: Because this is where fortunes are made in my community, right? And there are certain people who want to buy our government to get the decisions that they want. 

Cathy Antunes: And… you know, at the end of the day, it's… it's like, Who gave you this opportunity? Who gave you that talent? Who's going to be asking you at the end of your life what you did with it? Right?

Cathy Antunes: So, yeah, so, you know, the… I think there's also a role for that fierceness. That fierceness for truth. Fierceness for standing up. 

Cathy Antunes: And… And if… again, God made a whole spectrum of personalities and vibes with people.

Cathy Antunes: And so, some… some of us are going to be in that fiercer camp, some of us are going to be more gentle, some…

Cathy Antunes: But we just all have to do what we're called to do. 

Cathy Antunes: And you'll know it when you feel like, you'll feel it in your heart, right? It'll click.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I just want to reiterate one thing you said, which was victory, victory is not about winning an election or getting, like you said, you're a certain position, or a certain house, or a certain… victory, as you said, is the sense of connection with the Divine, maintaining that sense of connection with the Divine, maintaining alignment with the Divine as you honor yourself and the beauty that's in your own heart, whether that's standing up with a sword of truth, or whether that's bringing gently and softly a… an insistence or a, an invitation to care for each other. To care for each other with… with the mercy and the compassion and the kindness, and the respect and the dignity that each of us are due.

Cathy Antunes: Right, yeah. Yeah, I think dignity is such an important word.

Cathy Antunes: You know, the human being… is… and, like, one of the awesome, fabulous teachings of Islam and Sufism is, you know, that being made in the image of God, angels bow to God. They don't have free will. 

Cathy Antunes: I think… and when you're in the presence of God, you're going to obey, because He's irresistible, right? If you're in the presence of the Divine.

Cathy Antunes: This world is different, and… and the human, at least, you know, in a certain way, we all have free will.

Cathy Antunes: There's… we would always, talk in school about destiny versus free will, because there's also teaching that there's destiny, and…

Cathy Antunes: But, but because the human being contains all of the qualities of God, because the human being is made in the image of God, the human being is higher than the angels. The angels serve humanity.

Cathy Antunes: And… and it's that… like, after Rahman, people are familiar with Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim, in the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. But one of the next qualities is al-Qaddus, the Holy.

Cathy Antunes: Human beings are holy.

Cathy Antunes: And it… and that's… to fully realize your holiness is the victory of this life.

Cathy Antunes: And if you're looking at the outer, if you walk into a room and you're thinking that the most important, powerful person in the room is the one, you know with the big, famous name. 

Cathy Antunes: We have a celebrity culture where, you know the big, famous person is the most important first person, or the most powerful person.

Cathy Antunes: But I bet if… if God's looking, you know, if you're seeing with the eyes of Allah, if you're seeing with the eyes of God...

Cathy Antunes: And Allah is just God in Arabic, right?

Cathy Antunes: What you're… what Allah sees in that room, what God sees is the hearts of the people in the room, and it could be the person busing tables who is the one with the… the surrendered heart.

Cathy Antunes: And it's that kind of… understanding to wipe out the arrogance…

Cathy Antunes: You know, in the Bible it says to those much has been given, much will be expected. Right?

Cathy Antunes: The talent, the money, the power, we're all going to be asked what we did with it. Right?

Cathy Antunes: And… and to… to appreciate... that not making separation, and understanding that busboy might have something to teach you and he actually could be much farther along in ways that you're not is humbling, but I think it's also inspiring.

Cathy Antunes: And important at, you know, a time where we're, we're bombing a country that we don't know much about, that we don't understand. I think most Americans are like, what are we doing? You know?

Cathy Antunes: And it's important for us to look at, well, how did we get here? Right?

Cathy Antunes: And how do we do it different? We're going to have to do… in my view, we have to do it different, so yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, may we do it differently, starting with our own hearts...

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, alhamdulillah [praise God].

Dr. Habīb Boerger: starting with fostering our own hearts of peace and love and mercy and compassion and a recognition of our connectedness, and with loving kindness. Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And standing up for the truth, standing up for, you know, every human being's right to live, first of all, and also every human being's right to have clothing, to have a home, to have clean water, to have food. Every human being, not just… those in our tribe, in our in-group.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, and you know, when you're taking care of the planet, if you're… if you're in a position of privilege, and you have extra, and you have talent, and you can put that toward helping humanity.

Cathy Antunes: You know, I'll tell you this story. 

Cathy Antunes: A fellow activist that I worked with, we were saving a beach pavilion here in Sarasota from a use that most people wanted. It would basically become a spring break bar, and it was a very family-friendly public beach pavilion.

Cathy Antunes: So anyway, his name is Mike, and Mike and I were talking about where he grew up.

Cathy Antunes: And he grew up in this… or he lived in this small town in Louisiana, and he was telling me that all the kids in Louisiana played basketball.

Cathy Antunes: There’s this great book by Malcolm Gladwell called Outliers, and it kind of speaks to this dynamic. 

Cathy Antunes: And he said, you know, Cathy, every year the high school team in our Louisiana town went to the state championship in basketball.

Cathy Antunes: And his point, you know, when we were talking about this, it was like, the kids were they all played, and they all learned. 

Cathy Antunes: It wasn't that there was just this preponderance of basketball talent in this town. It was the fact that it was cultivated.

Cathy Antunes: That this town cultivated the basketball program, and all the kids played, and it was a community effort, but it just meant that they became quite good at it.

Cathy Antunes: What would the world be like if we had a commitment to nurture all of the kids, right? 

Cathy Antunes: Like, there are future Einsteins all over the world but if we don't educate them, and we don't feed them, and we don't clothe them, you know, and we don't inspire possibility, these artists, and… you know, scientists and all, don't… don't develop.

Cathy Antunes: Like… let's develop each other.

Cathy Antunes: And… it… there… there's so much that… that we can do and cultivate in this world. And so, if you're cultivating your corner, then that's great. I mean…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Cathy Antunes: Yeah, so… Yeah, so anyway, there's a lot of reason to be hopeful.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, may we all cultivate our corners, and…

Cathy Antunes: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Cathy, thank you so much for being here and for this conversation.

Cathy Antunes: Sure.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And…

Cathy Antunes: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, absolutely.

Cathy Antunes: Alhamdulillah [praise God].

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And thank you to all listeners for joining us on Beyond Names. Before we go, if you would please take one breath, pause, and reflect for just a moment on what stays with you from this conversation with Cathy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart. May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage. May you find your way again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the Divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And if today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment on this episode, and please follow Beyond Names.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.

Cathy Antunes: Amen.