Leading from the Heart with Paul Werder

Can spirituality transform the way we lead, work, and relate to one another?

In this deeply personal and inspiring conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with Paul Werder, founder of Lionheart Consulting, leadership consultant, author of Business with Heart, and longtime faculty member at the University of Sufism.

Paul shares the extraordinary story of how an unexplained illness became the doorway to emotional healing, spiritual awakening, and a lifelong commitment to helping leaders lead from the heart rather than the ego. Along the way, he explores the role of emotional intelligence, authentic leadership, meditation, and the Sufi practice of remembrance (dhikr) in cultivating healthier organizations, deeper relationships, and more compassionate communities.

Together, Habīb and Paul explore:

• Why unresolved emotions can manifest physically 
• The difference between ego-driven leadership and heart-centered leadership 
• Emotional intelligence as a spiritual practice 
• How remembrance (dhikr) opens the heart to peace and clarity 
• Building trust, accountability, and healthy organizational culture 
• Moving from separation to unity through compassion 
• Why authentic spirituality belongs in everyday life—including the workplace 
• Experiencing the Divine rather than merely believing in it 

Whether you're a business leader, spiritual seeker, therapist, coach, nonprofit executive, or simply someone longing to live with greater peace, this conversation offers practical wisdom for bringing your whole heart into every part of your life.

If you've ever wondered how spirituality can make you a better leader—and a more compassionate human being—this episode is for you.

Topics: Spirituality • Emotional Healing • Sufism • Dhikr • Leadership • Emotional Intelligence • Mindfulness • Meditation • Authentic Leadership • Purpose • Heart-Centered Leadership • Business Ethics • Personal Growth • Conscious Leadership • Inner Peace • Spiritual Awakening

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 50

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Paul Werder

Title: Leading from the Heart with Paul Werder

Description: Can spirituality transform the way we lead, work, and relate to one another?

In this deeply personal and inspiring conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with Paul Werder, founder of Lionheart Consulting, leadership consultant, author of Business with Heart, and longtime faculty member at the University of Sufism.

Paul shares the extraordinary story of how an unexplained illness became the doorway to emotional healing, spiritual awakening, and a lifelong commitment to helping leaders lead from the heart rather than the ego. Along the way, he explores the role of emotional intelligence, authentic leadership, meditation, and the Sufi practice of remembrance (dhikr) in cultivating healthier organizations, deeper relationships, and more compassionate communities.

Together, Habīb and Paul explore:

• Why unresolved emotions can manifest physically 
• The difference between ego-driven leadership and heart-centered leadership 
• Emotional intelligence as a spiritual practice 
• How remembrance (dhikr) opens the heart to peace and clarity 
• Building trust, accountability, and healthy organizational culture 
• Moving from separation to unity through compassion 
• Why authentic spirituality belongs in everyday life—including the workplace 
• Experiencing the Divine rather than merely believing in it 

Whether you're a business leader, spiritual seeker, therapist, coach, nonprofit executive, or simply someone longing to live with greater peace, this conversation offers practical wisdom for bringing your whole heart into every part of your life.

If you've ever wondered how spirituality can make you a better leader—and a more compassionate human being—this episode is for you.

Topics: Spirituality • Emotional Healing • Sufism • Dhikr • Leadership • Emotional Intelligence • Mindfulness • Meditation • Authentic Leadership • Purpose • Heart-Centered Leadership • Business Ethics • Personal Growth • Conscious Leadership • Inner Peace • Spiritual Awakening

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Hashem, Spirit, Source, Higher Power, Ultimate Reality, Great Mystery, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Paul Werder. Paul is a consultant and founder of Lionheart Consulting, where he has spent decades helping businesses and nonprofits build healthier, more collaborative cultures.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: His work connects leadership, purpose, mutual respect, and accountability with human flourishing and organizational success.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: He's the author of several books, including Business with Heart, and has taught spiritual leadership at the University of Sufism.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Paula was named a distinguished fellow by the Fowler Center for Sustainable Value at Case Western Reserve University, contributing to work on spirituality as a force for positive change in business. To learn more about Paul, please visit www.lionhrt.com.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Paul, welcome, thank you for being here.

Paul Werder: Thank you so much, Habib.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If you would, please, if you would introduce yourself to our listeners by way of telling us your spiritual story, and feel free to be as, to take as much time as you like.

Paul Werder: Thank you very much.

Paul Werder: I do enjoy this story, because it was, a learning… learning the hard way story.

Paul Werder: So, I was a social worker by training, master's in social work, top of my class, University of Washington.

Paul Werder: And I… in my first professional job, I went about 15 to 16 months before I…I woke up with this nasty sore throat.

Paul Werder: And it was… it was exhausting, it was interfering with my sleep.

Paul Werder: I could hardly talk because it was like a fire in my throat.

Paul Werder: And I went to doctors. They didn't know what was going on, they couldn't help me.

Paul Werder: And eventually, after being… laying in bed at 26 years old, or 27 years old, for about a month, I told my boss, I can't come to work, and so you need to fill my job.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And he said, Thank you for that, Paul. It's an honorable, thing that you're doing here.

Paul Werder: And I have a piece of advice for you. He says, I think you're an angry young man.

Paul Werder: And I said, myself, I didn't say it out loud, but I said to myself, Screw you, I am not.

Paul Werder: And that was a bit of an angry answer that I didn't… I wasn't aware of. I didn't know I was angry.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: But I had, you know, resolve… unresolved issues from growing up in life.

Paul Werder: And and what was really happening, that I didn't know, was that because I wasn't talking about it, it was like a fire that was getting stuck in my throat.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: And after I, you know, resigned, and convinced my wife to be to take a summer off and go backpacking.

Paul Werder: Oh, they told me, if you take your tonsils out, take your tonsils out, you'll be fine. That was the last doctor's perspective, and so I said, “Have at it, take my tonsils out.”

Paul Werder: And in 2 weeks, I was good. I was good to go, so my wife-to-be went on… we went on a 10-week backpacking trip.

Paul Werder: And came back to Portland, Oregon, where we live, and I needed another job, so I went to a very diff… similar facility than the one I had been in before. And going… just going to the interview, my throat started to hurt again for the first time.

Paul Werder: And I said, “Wow, what the heck is going on with me?”

Paul Werder: And I was book smart… book smart, but not very emotionally intelligent, is what… is how it turned out.

Paul Werder: And one of my colleagues, another social worker, had told me originally, before I, you know, went on the 10-week trip, you know, I think I could help you.

Paul Werder: And I said, “You know, you're not a doctor, I, you know, you're a social worker, how are you going to help me?”

Paul Werder: Well, she knew about emotional intelligence.

Paul Werder: And she had me sitting in a chair, across from an empty chair, and she said, tell the person… tell… put anybody in that chair you want to put in, and tell them how angry you are.

Paul Werder: And I thought it was really corny.

Paul Werder: But dang did it work.

Paul Werder: So, when I did that enough times, my throat started to feel better.

Paul Werder: And my wife-to-be, at that point, was a spiritual person more than I was. I had left it all behind.

Paul Werder: I'd gone to, you know, a school with Christianity in high school and grade school, but I was… I was kind of, like, done with it, because it didn't… it didn't help me, and it was actually harmful in some ways.

Paul Werder: So, she said, “No, let's go to Unity Church. Let's try it.” And I thought, you know, okay. And Unity Church was a nice opening for me to see that, you know, it's not like what I was use to.

Paul Werder: We’re talking about posit… it's a positive experience. It's not a “you shouldn't” and “you don't” kind of experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: So, that was the beginning, and one of… one of the help… one of the people that helped me overcome this illness said, “you know, you need to meditate.”

Paul Werder: And so I started to, you know, to learn how to meditate, you know, with a different group than the Unity people.

Paul Werder: And long story short, I've started to really enjoy and feel great about what I was learning, and so I never… I said to myself, I never want to forget these lessons.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: So instead of my social work career, I want to teach this. I want to teach emotional awareness and emotional, benefiting from, being real, being authentic and not stuffing yourself full of, you know, bad feeling.

Paul Werder: So, a colleague of mine, a friend of mine, was starting a consulting practice, and I asked her to join with her, and we did that.

Paul Werder: And within 6 months, she had resigned, she'd gone away, but I was going to… I was going to start a practice of coaching people, coaching people in business to not be successful and burn yourself out. Be successful and healthy. Be successful and happy, as opposed to what I could see in our society. 

Paul Werder: There's a lot of successful people that lose their health, and lose their happiness, and get divorced, and, you know, have a bad family experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: So that's, that was in 1983.

Paul Werder: And it worked. Somehow, I found enough clients to, to, you know, keep me, you know, going.

Paul Werder: And, it grew, and it was awesome, and…about 20 years… when…. And I named the company Lionheart, because I…I, I like The Wizard of Oz.

Paul Werder: In The Wizard of Oz, the scarecrow needed brains, but my clients were very smart, so I didn't go, want the scarecrow.

Paul Werder: But the lion needed heart.

Paul Werder: And the Tin Man.… No, the lion needed courage, and the Tin Man needed heart.

Paul Werder: So I named the company Lionheart.

Paul Werder: And, it was corny, but, you know, again, I liked it, and it worked.

Paul Werder: Because what I wanted to do is help people find their voice of their heart and have the courage to follow it, as opposed to let their egos run the show.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: Because my ego was my nemesis that had gotten me sick.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And it was definitely outside the box to approach a, a business person, or a CEO, or somebody running a non-profit with this kind of outside-the-box offer.

Paul Werder: But it was, you know, somehow I found it was… I was getting enough work.

Paul Werder: And, it was… it was… it was growing. I was doing well.

Paul Werder: That was… so that was my first midlife crisis that helped me find the spiritual path.

Paul Werder: And then the second midlife crisis came, hmm, 20 years later, after I started it up....

Paul Werder: And I had a team. There were people that wanted to work with me and join Lionheart.

Paul Werder: So, I had a woman working with me that had been brought in by another partner of mine.

Paul Werder: And she and I have got along okay, but not great.

Paul Werder: And after about, you know, 2 years, she kept telling me, yeah, “Paul, you don't respect me. Paul, you don't respect me.”

Paul Werder: And I, you know, I kinda did, but I kinda didn't, and I didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Paul Werder: So, I said, yeah, “I respect you.”

Paul Werder: And so that went on for quite a while, until she left.

Paul Werder: And she left the firm, and I said, “Hmm… I'm supposed to be the guy that is a team builder, and my team's departing. Maybe I should look in the mirror.”

Paul Werder: So I knew… I had a… I had a colleague up in Seattle that introduced me to a 3- or 4-day program that I decided to do in Seattle, and it was about working relationships.

Paul Werder: So again, I was looking for for help.

Paul Werder: And I went to that workshop, and there were about 4 or 5 people in it. It was a small group.

Paul Werder: And on the last day of the workshop, a woman who was a participant, who I had hardly talked to about 4 days, she walked up to me and she says, “Paul, I don't think you respect me.”

Paul Werder: And I go, “holy cow, how did you figure that out in 4 days?”

Paul Werder: And it wasn't… it wasn't that I didn't respect her, I didn't know her, and I didn't, you know, pay any attention to her. Like, she was there, and I didn't care.

Paul Werder: But I didn't reach out, and so I went up to the facilitator, and I said, “This is what happened, and it's like the same thing that this other woman told me in my company, and that's the reason I'm here.” 

Paul Werder: And he said, “Yeah, you have some kind of dark, dark stuff, and dark, challenging emotional stuff,” and I go, “Oh, I thought I'd taken care of that 20 years ago.”

Paul Werder: Well, it wasn't so much finished.

Paul Werder: And so, he suggested that I find some help back in Portland.

Paul Werder: And I thought about who would I… who would I call to give me some help.

Paul Werder: And there was a woman that I knew that was… was in… was in a healing school.

Paul Werder: And, and she, she took me on as a client.

Paul Werder: And I said, okay, here's what's happened. I told her my stories, both of them.

Paul Werder: About how I'm getting… I had a sore throat, and how people think I don't respect them.

Paul Werder: And she had me lay down on her, and it was, I think, the second meeting, on her massage table on my back.

Paul Werder: Put your hand on your heart.

Paul Werder: And she said, say your… say “my heart.”

Paul Werder: My heart.

Paul Werder: My heart.

Paul Werder: And, I thought, “well, this is weird, but, okay.”

Paul Werder: So, I'm going into it, and I'm saying, “my heart, my heart,” and she probably had me say it over a hundred times.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: Just quietly say it in my heart, over and over again, laying on my back on a massage table.

Paul Werder: And lo and behold, I don't know what, you know, how many, at number 106 or whenever, I started to cough uncontrollably.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Paul Werder: You know, coughing something up.

Paul Werder: And then I started crying uncontrollably after that for a minute or two.

Paul Werder: And I don't know how long it was, but… and then the third thing that happened, I was laughing uncontrollably.

Paul Werder: So, after this whole episode was going on, she was walking around the table, trying to, you know, support me without touching me, and just, like, letting me cough, and then cry, and then laugh.

Paul Werder: And then I just kind of calmed down, and she said, “Wow, that really… those things do happen, but not usually on your second session.”

Paul Werder: So I went home and I told my wife, “oh, you know, this is what happened, it was amazing, you know?” I had this experience, but I coughed something up and…and, you know, cried and laughed, and…

Paul Werder: And she said, “well, I think I want to go see her, too.” So my wife said, “I'm going to get a session with her.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: So she did, and the person that was my… the healer, looked… took one look at my wife and said, “oh my gosh, you're… you are a healer.”

Paul Werder: She didn't even hardly talk to her before. She says, “you're a healer, you need to attend the school that I go to.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: And so my wife was looking for what was next in her life.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: And that's the… and the school, of course, was the University of, what's now called the University of Sufism.

Paul Werder: And so the two of them were, you know, students in that school.

Paul Werder: And my… my… my inclination was, I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

Paul Werder: So I hesitated. A year later, my wife invited me to come to one of their sessions and meet… meet the teachers. And I did.

Paul Werder: And I decided, you know, this is good. I want to try this experience, so I signed up to come to the school.

Paul Werder: And the long… the short version of the story is, I was so grateful, so empowered, so filled with, peace and love that I hadn't ever, ever… experienced before.

Paul Werder: Like at the beginning of the journey, you know, 20 years before, I said, “I never want to forget this.”

Paul Werder: You know, and so at some point, about the third year of my schooling, I asked the head of school, “hey, is there a possibility that you could imagine me being a teacher here?”

Paul Werder: And he says, “yeah, the door's open for you.”

Paul Werder: And so… I got to be part of the faculty of this school, and I had.... 

Paul Werder: My gift that God gave me was learning how… teaching people how to be successful in the world. You know, back to my Lionheart business.

Paul Werder: So I have a practice of guiding people in their service projects when they get to that time in the school that the service projects are happening.

Paul Werder: So that's how I… that's how I found, you know, the Sufi path.

Paul Werder: Been a blessing and a beautiful life experience that I didn't… at the beginning, I did not want anything to do with.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, how's your anger?

Paul Werder: Occasionally I notice it, and occasionally I, you know, then I'm… I start to talk about it better.

Paul Werder: You know, I start to have, you know, little moments where I'm angry, and I… 

Paul Werder: I don't… I don't have physical illness anymore so I must be getting my anger out somehow, you know, in a better way.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And your throat, your throat is, no more problems, or…?

Paul Werder: Nope.

Paul Werder: Never, never, it's never been a recurring event.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Werder: I mean, I found the cause, and I, you know, got the spiritual lessons and the release of that anger that then was enough to give me a life of peace, and…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Great.

Paul Werder: love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Alhamdulillah [Praise God].

Paul Werder: Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, you bring together this… your experience of healing, and your experience of love, your experience of peace that you had at the University of Sufism, and you're saying, “okay, how can I help people be successful in their business?” And that's what Lionheart Consulting has been about.

Paul Werder: That's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, can you speak…

Paul Werder: Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Can you speak more to that intersection of how you're bringing together...

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: spirituality and how to be successful in your work.

Paul Werder: Right, right.

Paul Werder: That's another great story, because for the first couple of years, I loved what I was learning, but there was no way I thought I would teach any of this stuff to people in business.

Paul Werder: This is too weird. This is too outside the box. Business people don't want to hear me hear about this. I don't have an MBA.

Paul Werder: I have a social work career. And I'm good with people. I know how to build teams and help people become better leaders.

Paul Werder: But do not want to have to talk to them about spirituality.

Paul Werder: Yeah. Okay? So I lived in that little world for a minute, for a while until one of my clients that I'd had for about 6 years --

Paul Werder: a CEO of an organization that was a significant organization in Portland, Oregon.

Paul Werder: And, I had … I'd never heard her tell me this before, but she says, “I have these terrible headaches.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: I said, “Really? What… what do you… how… you know, what happens?”

Paul Werder: She says, “I have… I get… I get this terrible migraine headache. And it just knocks me out.”

Paul Werder: And I'd known her for 6 years, and we had never had this conversation before.

Paul Werder: And out of the blue, she starts telling me about her headaches, and I said, “Well, how many do you have?” “Oh, about 2 a week.”

Paul Werder: And I said, “well, how long do they last?”

Paul Werder: “About 18 hours.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yikes.

Paul Werder: And I said, “how long has this been going on?”

Paul Werder: And she says, “ever since I was in college.”

Paul Werder: “Wow, you've had… so for 20 years, you've had 2 headaches a week for 18 hours?” “Yep.”

Paul Werder: And I'm sitting there thinking, gosh dang it.

Paul Werder: I don't… I don't want to tell her about what's working for me because I don't think she's a spiritual person.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And, but I said, well, I have to do what I have to do here. I mean, I never wanted to talk about, you know, the practice of remembrance that I… that I've learned, and that I…makes me happy, makes me feel good. Got rid of my, you know, sore throat.

Paul Werder: So I said, “well, would you like to hear what I'm doing for myself that might help you?”

Paul Werder: And she says, “I'm at the end of my rope, I'll try anything.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: I said, “okay.”

Paul Werder: So I gave her the three names that I knew, you know, Allah for Arabic, Allaha for Aramaic, and Elohim for, for Hebrew, of God, the names of God.

Paul Werder: And the practice of remembrance is just to quietly repeat over and over the name of God in your heart until, you know, you start to feel better.

Paul Werder: And, so I gave her that. I don't know which name she chose, and I never asked her.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: But, you know, she sat there and closed her eyes for 20 minutes.

Paul Werder: And, and I was in remembrance, sitting across from her.

Paul Werder: And it was in Portland, and it was raining, and you could hear the rain hitting the window in her office.

Paul Werder: And about 20 minutes after we started, she opened her eyes, and I said, “well, what happened?”

Paul Werder: And she says, “I don't know, because it's… Well, it's… You know, it's… I can hear the rain on the window, and it's dark out, there's a lot of dark clouds out there, but this light came in. And it washed away a mountain of sadness.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And I go, “holy cow.”

Paul Werder: Oh, that's a… that's kind of like my coughing moment, you know, back in… when I was laying on the massage table. 

Paul Werder: And I said, “Well, would you be willing to try this remembrance, practice for the next 2 weeks before I see you again?”

Paul Werder: And she says, “yeah, I sure will.”

Paul Werder: Lo and behold, you know, within a month or two, she never had another headache.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And so I think, well, I guess you… I guess God's asking me to teach this to people in business.

Paul Werder: And that was the turning point, so I said, okay, now how do I do it? How do I teach people about spirituality and business without turning them off.

Paul Werder: And I had another client who was more of a… he was a client and a friend.

Paul Werder: And so I wrote up a little summary of how I was going to do it.

Paul Werder: And, I had the word Sufi, or… I forget if it was the word Sufi or the word Allah in it, you know, Allah.

Paul Werder: It's about a two-page paper, and he looked at it, and he said, “let me take a look at this, I'll come back to you with it.” And so he took the paper, and everywhere I had either the word Sufi or Allah, I can't remember which it was, he put in Jesus Christ.

Paul Werder: And so he made me read that and says, “so how would you feel if you read… if somebody gave you this paper?”

Paul Werder: “I'd say… well, I would say that they're trying to, encourage me to, you know, believe in Jesus Christ.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And he says, “would it turn you on or turn you off? I said, “well, it turned me off.”

Paul Werder: He says, “well, that's what's going to happen if you use your paper the way you've written it, with, you know, the word, you know, Allah or Sufi as often as you do. You have to find a better way. You have to let people find their own path, their own way.”

Paul Werder: And so, I really adopted that approach. It says, I don't really care what you… what you believe in.

Paul Werder: What I want you to do is connect to your heart as opposed to let your ego run amok.

Paul Werder: Because your ego will either, you know puff you up to thinking you're better than everybody else in the world, or your ego… ego will bite… break, you know, knock you down and make you feel like you're worthless.

Paul Werder: That's the voice of the ego.

Paul Werder: The voice of the heart is about love, peace, and contributing and helping people and just, you know, being an expression of love.

Paul Werder: And so, you can use a spiritual word, or you don't have to use a spiritual word.

Paul Werder: And at one point, somebody in my, one of my leadership classes, when I started to teach it in all my leadership classes, he says, “Paul, I'm not a spiritual person.” 

Paul Werder: I said, “oh, that's fine. Where do you find the most peace in the world?” And he goes, “oh, that's easy. When I'm up fly fishing on the… on the…on the Clackamas River, here in Oregon.”

Paul Werder: And I said, “so how do you fix… so what's the word… so pick a word or a phrase that brings you back to the, you know, to the experience that you have on the Clackamas River when you're fishing.

Paul Werder: And he said, “okay,” and I said, “use that as your remembrance practice, because… what I'm talking about is, that's where you find love and peace and, you know, enjoyment, but you can't be on the Clackamas River very often. You know, you maybe go two, three times a month, but you need to have this experience all the time. So I want you to take a word and use that to keep your heart open towards… in the same way that the visits to the river would give you.”

Paul Werder: Lo and behold, at the end of the year-long program, he wrote me a 3-page letter that said how much he benefited from, you know, remembering… you know, the Clackamas River.

Paul Werder: So you've… it's like a spirit… spirituality is much bigger than any one religion.

Paul Werder: You know, and that's what I… so that's what I discovered, and I… I just totally make it easy for people to pick something that's meaningful to them.

Paul Werder: And use that practice to keep the… keep the peace, you know, to keep centered, you know, to kind of not let your ego run amok when you're trying to, you know, being a success in business.

Paul Werder: And literally, I have a client who has, you know, 30 plus leaders in their company that have all learned, you know, the practice, and every time they start a meeting, they just have 2 or 3 minutes for the practice of remembrance before they start taking care of their business.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow.

Paul Werder: It's been a blessing to me to find people who are open to it, and get so much value out of it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… I'm a little bit flabbergasted by that, just because I… I'm thinking about all the companies -- and I think I'll refrain from naming some -- but all the companies that are complicit in such egregious harm in the world.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And how would things be different if they started every meeting with the practice of remembering what brings them the most love, and the most peace, and the most joy and…

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Paul Werder: That's the world we're looking for, isn't it?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That is the world we’re looking for.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, do you get much into helping them in terms of how to make your business successful, or do you focus more on, like, this is what you need to do in order for you internally to be in the right space, so you can do the work you do from…from a place of heartfulness, rather than from a place of…?

Paul Werder: It's both and, you know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay.

Paul Werder: I do help them with the remembrance and to be centered and calm, and cool, calm, and collected is one of the things I say, so that they're not reacting, and freaking out, and so on and so on. That's a foundational piece.

Paul Werder: But I also teach them how to build trust with each other, how to be accountable, how to have your own accountability, be a good role model for others to be accountable, conflict prevention, conflict resolution, how do you talk about things when there's… people are at odds against each other, etc., etc.

Paul Werder: So I… it's all… it's… it's really like, leadership and culture, and teamwork, all wrapped up into…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: what Lionheart can help somebody with.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Beautiful.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. It's bringing together the scarecrow and the lion and the tin man.

Paul Werder: And the, yeah, the scarecrow....

Paul Werder: I was looking for brains, and I tell my clients, you're already brainy, I don't need to help you with that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's bringing emotional intelligence to...

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: to the… the mental aspect that we so tend to focus on in our culture.

Paul Werder: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah.

Paul Werder: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, and bring in the heartfulness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I like to think of, I like to think of the spiritual journey as being the journey of bringing the light of the soul together with the ego through the doorway of the heart.

Paul Werder: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Bring the light of the soul to the mind, like, bring the light of the soul to the body. So, bring the light of the soul through the doorway of the heart to inform our… how we respond to our thoughts, how we respond to our feelings, and how…how we can act, and…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, how we use our eyes and our tongue and our limbs from… from heartfulness, you know, from a place of allowing the light of the soul, which is that place of this love that is beyond our comprehension and beyond...

Paul Werder: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: boundaries and beyond size, and so on.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, I… I'll… I'm curious about a couple of things.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: One of the things that stuck out to me is, is that “you do not respect me.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and… And I'd like to hear about your… more of your journey in relation to this ego versus heartfulness, your journey with emotional intelligence around, around respecting others, or confronting that part of yourself where others did not feel respected.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If you… if you feel comfortable speaking to that part of your story a little bit more.

Paul Werder: A little bit more. Well, I'm clear that it was a lack of respect. 

Paul Werder: It was, you know, thinking I'm, you know, a little better. My work is more important or valuable than yours. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: That's… that… that was very true with the woman that was my team member at that point 25 or 30 years ago.

Paul Werder: I didn't respect her as much as she needed. 

Paul Werder: You know, she wanted to be, you know, she wanted to be respected more than I could do it, because I just didn't see it, feel it.

Paul Werder: And I couldn't talk about it with her, so I just… you know, did what I did, and she felt the… she felt the vibes, and she kept talking to me about the vibes, and I kept saying, “no, I respect you.”

Paul Werder: So I was, you know, I was basically, without knowing it, maybe BS-ing her.

Paul Werder: Right. And so, she finally decided to leave.

Paul Werder: And so, at that point, that was another wake-up call, and I got help, and I learned that I, you know, and that woman that was in the program for 4 days that said that same thing to me, it was kind of like a messenger from God.

Paul Werder: Yeah, duh ... you know?

Paul Werder: You still need to pay attention to that, you know?

Paul Werder: And, and, you know, to be honest with you, I don't know if it was a gender thing, but as I've learned about leadership and grown as a leader, you know, women are a lot better leaders than men most of the time.

Paul Werder: So, that's where I'm at with it now. I do respect, you know, women leaders, and I want them to prevail and, you know, kind of take over from the men, because the men are messing it up.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, the men are messing it up, aren't they? We don't have to do much to see many examples of the men messing it up.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, in this transformational process, in this process of moving from a place of the ego, thinking, oh, my work is more important, or I know more, or my contributions are more valuable, or whatever, I'm curious if part of the, that transformation is, like, locking into your mind and heart this, what we might call in, in our tradition, in the Sufi way, that this movement between the realms of the material world to the realms of the supersensible world?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Like, is part of that, like, a way of anchoring this movement between, yeah, we are in a world of multiplicity, but that multiplicity serves to bring us to the realm of the unity?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Like, is that emotional shift in emotional intelligence, was that facilitated by your own journey of realizing within your own heart and soul, like, I'm operating in this realm, but there is a realm of oneness. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: There is a realm of no separation between he, she, and my experience, and her experience, and his experience, and their experience. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Is that… Does that resonate? Does that feel true? Or was it more… was it something else entirely for you?

Paul Werder: I might be over-simplifying it, but there was a book that I read, again, one of my clients said, hey, you've got to read this book, because this is your work.

Paul Werder: And it was called The Different Drum.

Paul Werder: Scott Peck, the guy that wrote The Road Less Traveled wrote another book, The Different Drum.

Paul Werder: And I read it, and he had four phases of… of people's dynamic.

Paul Werder: He said the first phase is pseudo-community, when you're pretending you're just fine, but you're not.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm…

Paul Werder: You’re pretending, yeah, I’m good, you know, no problems, yeah, but you're not.

Paul Werder: And then the second phase of communication was chaos.

Paul Werder: And chaos is, now that the differences are out in the open, and they're not… they're not pleasant, you know, they're harmful, you know, out fighting and arguing and, you know, nasty.

Paul Werder: And then when you get… you either go from, you know… and when you get into this chaos, oftentimes people go, oh, let's go back to pretending it's fine as opposed to doing the work, which would be, getting you to an experience of unity.

Paul Werder: And unity, you know, would mean, you know, just deep respect and cooperation and caring about each other.

Paul Werder: And he said, Scott Peck said, the only way you can get to unity is to empty yourself of what I would call your ego debris.

Paul Werder: You know, all of the aspects of your ego that are being righteous, and don't want to listen, and, you know, not respecting, and all that stuff that happens when you're in pseudo-community or chaos.

Paul Werder: So I adopted that model, and I, when I read that book, I actually got on an airplane and went to experience what Scott Peck was doing with another person.

Paul Werder: And and I said, I’ve got to learn how to do this, and so I did.

Paul Werder: And so that's been a model that I've used in business environment that makes sense to people. It's not spiritual… it's spiritual, but it's not overtly spiritual.

Paul Werder: So, I don't know if that answers your question, Habib.

Paul Werder: But I can help people see what they're… what they're living in, whether they're living in pseudo-community, or chaos, or… or doing the work of emptying themselves of their egos, so that their hearts can connect.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It reminds me of, whether you… like, in Buddhism, of course, there's the term mindfulness that's used a lot, and there's this… and that's sort of gone beyond even Buddhism to… it's very much becoming more pervasive in our culture to talk about mindfulness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Other people talk about self-awareness, others use the term compassionate self-witnessing, but you know, part of that is being present in the moment, being honest with yourself about what's happening.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And what you're talking about here is, like, instead of circumventing your emotional reality, or your thought patterns, having the awareness, and the ability to be honest with yourself about those thought patterns or about your emotional experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, instead of covering it up and pretending that it's not what's happening, it's dealing with it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And you used, you know, emptying emotional debris. So it's…

Paul Werder: Ego, ego debris, your, your, your ego…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Paul Werder: That's yucky.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, ego debris, emptying the ego debris.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: In order to move toward unity, which is that place of deep respect and care and love. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Werder: And that's a tall order, by the way. Not, you know, that's not easy to do, even with the people you love the most. Your own family, your daughter, your, you know, your…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: Your wife, your spouse.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: It’s not easy to stay in that place of unity when things go haywire.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's so true…

Paul Werder: Yeah, so it's a never-ending work. It's never-ending work.

Paul Werder: And you're right, there's, there's a lot more, you know, from when we were kids to now, there's a lot of advancement that society has taken in terms of being more mindful, being more caring, etc., etc., in most, you know, in most arenas.

Paul Werder: But the truth is, there's so much more that we haven't gotten to.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: That's what I love about the Sufi University and the Sufi practices help us taste and experience that so much more than… than you know, is… is in our common…commonly experienced life, life, events.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah. And I… I can't help but think when I started this spiritual journey, I didn't even know what the word spirituality meant, honestly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I had no… no conception of, like, exploring study… or studying spirituality, or going to any sort of formal environment to study spirituality.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so I had no idea, that the possibility of see… of feeling a sense of intimacy with the Divine.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I just… it was not in my framework.

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… And the spiritual journey has brought me, to use the word that you mentioned, tastes. You know, tastes…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… And when you have tasted… I've used the term unitive love, but when you've tasted that love that makes absent everything other than love, then you… you really want to anchor that in, and you want to live from that, and you want to return to that, and… and you hope for that for everyone.

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You want everyone to taste that love and know that love.

Paul Werder: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: That's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: And you're reminding me now, Habib, of another little piece of this big puzzle we're talking about today.

Paul Werder: You know, when we… when I was a kid, you know, I went to church, and the church had saints, photos of… not photos, paintings of saints, and they would always have this, you know, kind of glow about them.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Paul Werder: And my understanding of that when I was going through grade school and high school and seeing those paintings of saints, and… “oh, that's just an artist's rendition. They're special.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Paul Werder: And then when I hit the Sufi path, when I started practicing remembrance, I realized that when you connect to the Divine, through the name of the Divine with repetition over and over and over again, giving your full consciousness, your full attention to your heart, and having, you know, the name of God coming through your being, you know, I feel light all over the place, when I do it well.

Paul Werder: You know, if I'm just going through the motions, I don't feel much light, or any light.

Paul Werder: But when I'm really focused and conscious and aware of what I'm saying and doing, I feel that light, just like those saints, you know?

Paul Werder: And I'm no saint, but that was what I didn't understand, that there was an ability to have that experience of light...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Paul Werder: that comes from the Divine, and into our being, somehow, that you can even feel it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: It's not just… it's not just a, a belief. It's an experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Exactly.

Paul Werder: And we were… I mean, we were just told, believe it, believe it, believe it, believe it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right. 

Paul Werder: But… What we've had as a different experience in the Sufi Path is experience it and then you'll believe it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Taste.

Paul Werder: Taste it before you believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Paul Werder: That's not how it was approached… that's not how I was approached...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that's why I love…

Paul Werder: in my earlier days.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You're right, that's not many of us, and that's one of the… as I mentioned before we started recording us, one of the reasons that I wanted to do this podcast is so many of us, that's not been our experience. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so many of us, because it's not been our experience, we're not necessarily in a place of receptivity. You know, like, our minds are kind of closed, and our hearts are kind of closed.

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, hopefully, this conversation can be a part of opening the door to letting go through whatever spiritual practices resonate with you, but to, you know, using spiritual practice to let the barriers fall away, to actually feeling and being with the sacred, the Divine.

Paul Werder: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation. It's been a pleasure to connect with you.

Paul Werder: Thank you. You're the, you're the inspiration that got us together. I appreciate you very much, Habib.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And to all listeners, thank you for joining us on Beyond Names. Just as a reminder to learn more about the work that Paul is doing, you can access that at www.lionhrt.com.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And before we go, briefly, if you would just pause for a moment and take one breath to reflect on what stays with you from this conversation with Paul.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: The image of the… of the… from the Wizard of Oz is going to stick with me.

Paul Werder: Do you know what the wizard told them when they got to the wizard?

Paul Werder: It's already inside of you, you don't need anything, you just need a symbol.

Paul Werder: He gave them symbols and told them, you have everything you need in here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, beautiful, beautiful.

Paul Werder: That's the deal.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You have everything you need already within your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage. May you find your way again and again back home to what you already have in your own heart, back home to the Divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, comment, and share this episode. Please follow and subscribe to Beyond Names.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.