#008- Louis Henika- "It's Not About You"

Hello! Today I sat down with one of my good college friends and former cheerleading teammate Louis Henika. Louie is a great person with a lot of great stories, and it was a pleasure to get to chat about his cheerleading experience, boxing origin story, career goals, and more! If you enjoy this episode, please don't hesitate to like, comment, or interact in a different way. It helps me so much and will be able to show more people the podcast. Hope you enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Are you just on your phone? Yeah, yeah, is that cool? Yeah, no, that's that's fine. That's fine. Um, I saw uh I saw like your name join and it's it uh did you just put in your last name? Like do did you do that on purpose? Dude, I have no idea. I literally clicked the link. Oh it just says Hanukkah it kind of looks badass. It's like mysterious, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah. So what's up, man?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Not not a whole lot, not a whole lot, you know, just trying to finish up school.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah. Um what'd you you just got back from vacation, right? I guess kind of vacation.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like it was mostly vacation. I would say like it was like all fun stuff we were doing. Uh, but yeah, we just got back from France, so that was sweet. That was cool. How long did you spend there? Like a week-ish? Yeah, about a week. Okay. Um, give or take a little bit with the time changes and whatnot. Yeah. How was the flight? Uh, it actually wasn't too bad. Like, it was actually a lot shorter than I would have expected. It was, I think, seven hours or so there, and like eight and a half, nine on the way back. Okay. Um like it was it's crazy. Like, my brother actually is stuck in Florida right now. Um, like they're having a really hard time getting back into Detroit. It was like crazy because like our like our flight was fine. Like, and I was coming from France. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

He's from Florida. Yeah, there was I had a I had a friend in one of my classes, and he went back to or he went to uh Dominican Republic, I think, or something like out of the decently far. And he said like he hadn't been in my lecture the last two days because he was like stuck there, and then he had to fly into New York, rent a car, and drive drive here from New York. Yeah, they flew out of like they flew out of like Grand Rapids. That's wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah, I haven't seen all sorts of like people on their elegance dadfest and whatnot, like saying like all the crazy flight paths and their routes to get home.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

There's so many horror stories. And then too, like like I'm from the UP, obviously, and dude, they got like 34 inches of snow over the last like six days.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I saw that. I thought that's insane.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Like my mom couldn't leave the house for two days. Like our our town was like shut, like nothing was even open. It was actually wild.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

And like those towns are definitely more prepared for snow, but like at a certain point, like you just can't prepare for them for that.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Well, yeah, like dude, even like the even like the plow trucks and stuff, they like stopped plowing because one they couldn't plow fast enough because it was just it just kept snowing. And then two, like there was legitimate like risk of like the giant plow trucks like getting stuck because there was so much. Yeah. Like there was um we have like a family friend that has a tractor and he came and like plowed our yard. Yeah, yeah, that's that's all he can do there. Yeah. But uh I'm just like I figured it would I figured we would be out of like the worst of it by now, but even yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

No, it's still it's it's still early. It's still early.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah, I guess. I guess.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

People have been saying like the weather's friends have been trying nice. Like people have been saying like like we're done with the snow, like no, like we gotta we got a long way to go.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, I guess. I mean, here like it really hasn't gotten too bad. Like, there's been a couple days where like the roads were kind of iffy, but I feel like the plowing usually gets done in a timely manner, and then it's like it'll usually warm up enough to where the bulk of it can melt pretty fast. Yeah, like the stuff that's on the ground right now has been here for like two days, and that's like the longest I've seen in like a month that it's like been that long.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

It's like a dusting because we had dusting on here right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah. So um, oh man. So did you do anything else for break or no?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

I mean, I didn't really have a whole lot of time. Uh I think like that Saturday before I like I went up to Tawas to work, and then uh I came back that night because like we didn't leave until Sunday, like that's like that first Sunday spring break. Yeah. So I went up to I went to Tawas to work, and then I came back that Saturday night. And uh I actually uh Sierra and Caitlin were up here for the state finals volunteering. So yeah, right. I got to hang out with them for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Oh, that's nice. Um, what do you what do you do in Tawas? I forget. You work at like a park, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, I work for East Tawas City um specifically for their parks. Okay. So there's a there's a campground there. Um like if you're if you're driving through there, it's like right right downtown. Um it's like it's strictly a vacation town. Like there's hardly anybody there this time of year. Yeah. But um, so there's a campground there and it's it's extremely busy in the summertime. And uh, I mean it's an awesome place to work. Like uh just there's then there's five other parks that we we take care of. So oh that's nice. It's pretty like pretty like simple, simple job.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I I really enjoy it. Yeah, is is that kind of like what you want to go into or like yeah, it's it's actually like exactly it's actually like exactly what I want to do.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

So I'm an outdoor recreation major, and um my like my ideal job is like working in park management. The thing is though, is like those jobs are really hard to get just because people really like them. Um and there's there's only like one park manager, park manager usually per per city or per entity, um, depending on what you're what you're trying to do. Uh there's usually a handful of full-time jobs like within parks at any given entity. And then those people usually stay there. Uh, but yeah, it's definitely like something along the lines of what I want to do. Uh right now I'm actually working an internship with the park manager, with the park manager, uh kind of seeing what he does and working alongside him. But it's I've worked at the same place for the last three or so years. This will be my fourth summer. Yeah. And and I I really like it a lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Okay. Would you like would you want to work somewhere like in Michigan or would you want to like go out?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Uh I don't know. I I really like northern Michigan just because I I like northern Michigan, but as far as like employment, I mean I'm open to a lot of different things. I know like there's a lot of there's a lot of big recreation areas outside of Michigan that I would uh that I would like to go to just for the opportunity. Yeah. But as far as like where I want to be, I really do like Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah. No, it's a it's it's a nice place for sure. Like, especially being from the UP, like obviously, like there's not a lot up there, like for for like people like me, where I'm like, I'm going into college, getting a degree, and like trying to like make connections and like experience new things. Like, there's not a lot of new things to experience there. But like whenever I talk to someone, they're like, Oh, yeah, like the UP's super nice and super pretty. And I'm like, Yeah, like there's a lot of nice like sights to see, but it's just not like somewhere that I I like envision myself wanting to like live. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

That makes sense for sure. Oh yeah, that makes sense for sure. And that's why I'm kind of like, I'm I know, like, I know my views on things will change as well, so I don't really want to lock myself into being like I need to stay in Michigan. Yeah, yeah. Also, the the winter suck, dude.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Like it's it's bad. Yeah. After after this year, I feel like I've just been so much more like discouraged by the weather because like I feel the same way. Because like every once in a while they'll throw in like a 55 degree day, and then it'll and then I'm like, nice, like I can wear shorts in this weather, and then it just like goes right back, and then like I'm just cold. Like, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

I think what really did it for me. What really did it for me was when we went down to Florida uh for for nationals there, that's horrible. And it was like 35 degrees, dude. That was like 35 degrees though. It's uh yeah, so it sucked, but like also like it was 35 degrees and the Floridians were acting like it was like the apocalypse, and we're just like out there and like in like a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Dude, I'm like I'm I'm wearing like I'm wearing like my my dry fit cheer like t-shirt with socks and Birken stocks walking to get my DoorDash order at like 9 p.m. It's like it's like windy and it's like 40 degrees. I'm just like walking past all these people like in jackets.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Like, like, like like have you like I also just like didn't pack for that because I wasn't prepared, but like I was not at all not at all. No, I was not at all. I never had the option, but like it was also like it, like I feel like if that's their like if that's their lowest point, then I can get down with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, I can I can deal with that for like a couple weeks. Um yeah, but yeah, no, it was funny. I like I looked at the packing list and it was like bring your sweatshirt, bring like your hooded long sleeve, and then also bring your warmups like for the way they're in back. And I'm like, no, like that's so much, that's a lot of clothes and then I got there and I was like, I'm so glad that I decided to bring my warm-up because I needed it. Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

I I I legitimately I was trying so hard to not buy things at Disney. I had no choice but to buy a sweatshirt one day, and you just heard like a rainy out of the morning.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I I went to the parks the entire day. I get there, and like I think I think we were there for like an hour or less, and I I was just wearing like a t-shirt and shorts because I'm like, this is Disneyland, like this is Florida, I I should be fine. Just starts downpouring, and of course, I'm in like the only ride that like the line is outside, so I'm like standing, these other people are around me with like ponchos on, and I'm just like in a t-shirt. So I had to bike.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

I think it was a day that it was like a day it was like 45 or 50, and I like I left I left the hotel. I think I was wearing any like like long pants and like a t-shirt, and I was like 45-50, I'm not I'm gonna be fine in this. Yeah, and we get there, and within like five minutes of being there, I started downpouring. I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna be fine. Yeah, yeah, that was uncontrollably shivering.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

That was that was such like a weird trip to like try to plan for, not necessarily pack for, but like to plan like the day for. Because like if you're going to the parks all day, you're obviously not gonna be coming back to the hotel to grab like a sweatshirt, but then it's like you don't want to grab one and then have to carry it around all day because it's hot. But when I tell you, I feel like I guessed wrong every time. I seriously I guessed wrong every time. Like I went to Disney Springs and it was like I I think I'm in the same boat. It was like 60, and I was like, I don't need a sweatshirt. And then I was like shivering like a half hour after I got there.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, it was bad. But I think the the day you guys competed, I was like in solidarity with you guys because I knew you guys were gonna be cold. Then I I just like decided to like wear shorts and short sleeves with you guys because like yes, I do like all the girls that need outside and like skirts and I'm like, you know what? Like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna stand a style of solidarity with them just to be a good guy here.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. No, but that was that was a cool experience though. Like, I'm I'm glad that I got to at least do that once. I felt like that was like it was like insane to be in a space where it was like so many people that like had the same like I don't know, like hobby and like passion. I feel like I've never been in an area with like that high a concentration of like all people like that compete in one like niche sport. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah, it was a really cool experience.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah, like like did it did it feel like that for you when you went?

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think I was a little bit more in awe like the first time when I went to NCA. Yeah. Um just because like it was the first time. Um but yeah, it was and then like this time around, like being a coach, it was it was a crazy dynamic too, because like I I wasn't there to compete, like my work was done, and like I was just like like at that point, more of like a spectator and like making sure you guys were okay. Yeah, um, so it was a crazy like switch up for me as far as like the experience.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah. So yeah, I I I kind of want to get into that. Like, how like what has the transition been from obviously you did cheer in high school and then you go on, you do it in college for what three years? Yeah, three years.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

And then well, I mean, if you count that like one year at the prep school, like that was that sort of counted, but I was that wasn't really like a real cheer team.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Okay, got you. So then you did that, and then now into like your first year coaching, how has that dynamic been?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Uh it's it's been it's been strange. Like, like this past year has been really strange. So, like when I was in high school, um, I kind of just like started doing it out of the whim. Like my mom was really good friends with the cheer coach in high school, and she was like asking if I wanted to come to an open gym. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And um, so I went in, um, I did like a toss games or something like the first day, which looking back like as a high schooler is probably pretty cool, but like looking back now, I'm like, yeah, like that's not really that that cool. And all the girls were like freaking out, like they like they acted like I was a second coming of Jesus, like when they saw that. And like I was like, it wasn't really like like looking back, I'm like, it was kind of just like I should have been able to do that. Yeah, um, like this girl's 80 pounds, like yeah. Um, but so like they kind of just like like they were like in awe. So I saw their reaction and was like, oh, like I must be good at this, or like this is cool, I guess. So I they asked me if I wanted to keep coming, and I was like, Yeah, sure. So I just kept on coming back. Um within a few weeks I was performing with a team, and uh that's kind of the story goes from there. And then so coming into so coming into college like as a senior, um I had a few schools reach out to me, but like I was ultimately going to college to go to college. I wasn't going to college for cheerleading. Um the cheerleading coach at Central reached out to me, and uh I I said I was like I said I was very interested in Central because my brother came here and it's pretty close to my hometown. That's a bigger school. Um Central's exactly like what I wanted. Um but I had this thing where I wanted to join the military and I also had an application at West Point, and I'm like, I just kind of like explained that to her, and then she was like, Well, you're not gonna believe this, but my husband's a National Guard recruiter. So I was like, oh well, awesome. So like I met them for lunch, talked them through it. I decided like I was gonna come here at Decentral, pending my application at West Point. Well, I ended up getting into the prep school at West Point, which is not necessarily the actual academy, but you're you kind of go to the school, and then it's like a it's a year-long program. And then from there, you'll be the first person to get into West Point the following year, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I explained the situation to to the coach and to the recruiter, and they fully supported my decision to go there. Um within about within about six months of being there, so I was about halfway to three quarters of the way through uh through the school there, I was kind of just like decided like that's not for me. Um like the place is awesome, it had a ton of great opportunities. Like I loved all the people there, but like it just was not where I wanted to be. Um, I know a lot of people were leaving too as well. Um, but I I decided to stick it out, kind of see it through. While I was seeing it through though, I was sort of making these plans to come back here. So I had texted that recruiter. I uh I had gotten contact with the coach here, and they were like wonderful through that process for me because they kind of like knew I was still there, I was still super busy, I was going through a lot over there. And then um, as soon as I got back, I was granted a four-year RTC scholarship here and turned down my appointment to to West Point. Um, so I still got into the academy, uh, which was like a huge accomplishment of mine. It's like one of the things I'm like most proud of because it's a very difficult school to get into and it's um it's like quite the process. So kind of seeing that through and getting in there was actually like a huge, it's like a huge thing for me. But um, I actually turned down my uh my appointment to West Point, which was of the hardest things I've ever done, I've ever done in my life, and then came here and kind of just did those three years of cheerleading. Um, my first year we competed at NCA, which was a really good time. And then after after NCA, we had a coaching change. So things got a little bit weird for a couple years there. So for those second two years while I was here, it was primarily just game day stuff. Um, but I still loved it. That's like what I love to do. Um, so it was really cool to go to NCA and have that competition experience, but like I really enjoyed the game day stuff, and then um you this is kind of like where you came in toward my uh you were you started my second year as a as a sophomore. So you started kind of knowing the end of it, yeah. Yeah, which is which is cool for me too, because like I've never like there's been guys on my teams before, but like no guys have really stuck around, if that makes sense. Like there's been guys intermittently coming in and stunting around, and I have a good community of guys that I've talked to, but to have like one guy that's like actually stayed there was awesome. So, like you being on the team like really changed my perspective a lot, and um, it was that was really cool to have that. So I appreciate you doing that. Yeah, um and then uh towards so the way my the way my this is where things get a little bit weird too, because like this is where I had to start making a decision for my fourth year for school, as well as for ROTC. Like ROTC picks up a little bit uh every year, but uh especially in the fourth year, and then for school, I have to do an internship. I'm not taking any classes right now, I'm just doing an internship and it's a 30 credit internship. So I was starting to realize like, hey, there's no way I'm gonna be able to like be able to handle the demands of being a college cheerleader and going to all these football games, all these basketball games, especially on weekends where that's where most of my work is done. Um so it's just like not feasible. And I was starting to kind of realize that, and I was kind of just kind of keeping quiet about it, and I knew it was gonna be a conversation I was gonna have to have with with J-Ron, our coach, at some point. And I just kept on putting that conversation off. And then one day he came up to me, and he's been around the Mount Pleasant area, but he he's been out of the cheer game for a few years at this point. He came up to me and he's trying to like asked if he knew of any or if I knew of any guys that would be interested in coaching or could help out coaching. Um, he just wanted some help on the co-ed side. And I kind of like thought for a second, and I was like, Well, I like I would. And he was kind of taken aback a little bit, and he's like, Oh, well, like you don't give another year, like you don't want to be on the team. And I kind of just explained the situation. Um, and on top of that, like I was somewhat like over like being an athlete at that point. Like, I've been a very competitive athlete my whole life. I've competed at a pretty high level in a lot of different things, and um that competitive sphere is kind of out of me. So I just explained, like, yeah, like I'm I think it's just time for me to like change things up a little bit. And he was like, Well, like I'll I'll think about it and I could give it back to you. And then a few weeks later he was he was down for it, and that was our plan. So I I think you probably knew before anybody else did, but we announced that to we know he told anybody, he just like posted it on Instagram one day. Yeah, but I think you probably you probably knew much before anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah, it was just kind of like the slow, gradual um like rollout of it, and then all of a sudden, like you see the Instagram post, and it was like, oh, okay, like this makes sense. This is why, you know, like obviously we all knew you were like busy and stuff, but we were like, what like what is the move gonna be? Because obviously, like we knew that you weren't the type of person to go from like being a huge part of this team like for three or so years and then just like go and ghost. Like, I figured there would have been like some sort of implementation of like either you like athletically or just like intellectually in cheerleading. And so like when I saw the coach, I was like, yes, like this this makes sense. And I also think that like going through the game day stuff actually at Central, like being there first person. Obviously, Daron was there, but like That's the head coach. So someone being there for like the co-ed side of it was super beneficial, like for me, because obviously there's a team of you know 30 some odd people. It's like to have a coach that is specialized for just like the one that works with a few people that doesn't really get much attention, like whole scale, was like super nice for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, and and I definitely felt like it was kind of like a natural progression as well. Um, kind of like you were saying, like it kind of started like shifting that way. Like you came around and um I just spent most of my time with you, and it felt like at a certain point, like I was no longer the one doing the stunts, and I was more so like teaching the stunts, and less it was like less of me practicing and more of like me like helping you at that time.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

So it kind of felt that way. And then on top of that, like I think it's good to have like a younger coach that's not that like Dehran is old, like he's he's still young, but like have a like younger coach that's close to you guys' age where I can I can just talk to you a little bit differently. It feels like the vast majority of you are a lot more comfortable talking to me than than Dayron or even even Kenzie, like Kenzie's our age, but like she's like it just feels a little bit more natural that you guys talk to me a lot of times.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah, yeah. No, I I would I would agree because especially like being teammates with someone, you develop like a whole new dynamic and like a different relationship with that person. So it was like I felt like I could tell you things that were on my mind that I might have either been not able to tell the other coaches or just like kind of hesitant on grounds of like, is this appropriate or like is this even necessary? But I just felt like it was more like a friendship and a mentorship, less than like a coach.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah, well, and and I mean it's definitely like a way of like like you could tell me something exactly how you feel, and then I could kind of change up the wording a little bit, say it a little more tactfully, and kind of pass the message along, like this I can get the same message along or like across, but like but like say it in a better way, or I can also just kind of see what's reasonable because I can see both sides now, because I was I was that athlete the year prior, and I know you guys, so it's like I can kind of see your point of view and then see his point of view and kind of merge those a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I I will say that that is a little bit that was like part of the challenge because probably what about half of the team I was teammates with, and then the other half of the team like they didn't even know as a student. Like they didn't even know, like I was still like a like a lot of them didn't even know I was a student until I guess I didn't know recently.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah, yeah. Like so they they all thought I was like graduated and I'm just hanging around here, just doing all sorts of stuff. But um, yeah, so it's kind of like it's kind of a crazy dynamic of like some people know me and hang out with me, or like at least used to hang out with me all the time, and like now it's just like a complete shift on that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

So yeah. Well, um I think um like your entrance to cheer, like your introduction to it was like kind of somewhat similar to mine. Like in high school, you just got asked um to like come to an open gym, and obviously, like you had the connection with your mom and the coach. I did not. I was reached out to via Instagram DMs, which is like still like one of the craziest like interactions I've ever had. Like I remember I remember like where I was when I like got the the message. I was I was home because it was uh I think I was home for like my birthday or um just like Christmas break or something, and I just I just see like on my Instagram CMU cheerleading like wants to send you a message, and then it was just like, hey, I'm coach Johnson, like if you ever want to like come check out stunting, like um being a power lifter, you would probably have a pretty good um like basis of like strength and like functionality that would translate to stunting. So I was like, you know what, like I'll try it, like why not? Um I had I had really not a lot of like friends my first year at Central, just because like I was still like acclimating to like being away from home, and it was just kind of like I didn't really like know my place, or I didn't like really know where I fit in in terms of like being involved in school in like the university, other than just classes. So it was like seeing that message, and I like I had made a promise to myself that year that I would I would be open to new opportunities and like not shy anything away, especially because it felt uncomfortable at first. So like I saw that as like the perfect gateway to like being involved in the school and like finding my place, and it was really interesting too because it was like it started with an open gym, so it wasn't like hey, do you want to join the cheerleading team? It was like, hey, do you have an hour after classes one night to like come try something new? And I was like, Okay, sure. Like that that is not a big commitment at all. Like, I could go there for 40 minutes. If I absolutely hate it, I'll just be like, Yeah, this isn't for me. Like, you guys would have been supportive of that, and then like never the twins shall meet. But it was like I like met a couple people and like everyone was really nice, and like you were actually the first person that approached me. I like walked into the gym and I see like 10 girls and then like a coach just like walking around, and I I didn't want to like make my presence known. I didn't want to like yell and be like, Hey, I'm here, like the guy from Instagram. But then you like walked up and you were like, you were like, Oh, are you Zach? And I was like, Thank God I didn't have to like walk up to this group of people and just like because I I don't know, it just felt super awkward to me, but then it was like this slow, it was like this slow like progression into like just meeting new people and then like discovering something that was fun. So then um like the first like summer and stuff, I developed like a bunch of like really meaningful relationships, and then like the first season of game day was like it was really fun to me, and I was like, this is my favorite part like by far. Because obviously, like me and you like we we we love college football, and it's like there's no other way besides being you know coach, faculty, or player to like get that close to a college football game. So it was like, oh, I get to like run on the field with a giant ass flag and like throw people in the air. That sounds kind of cool. So I don't know, I just I I just feel like well, I don't feel like there is there's just this like huge stigma of like male cheerleaders, and I think it's just like it's slowly being like ripped apart just because of like how much more accepted uh male cheerleaders have gotten, especially like today, just because it's like and it just makes enough sense to me too, because like like you're probably the same way, like 90% of my friends in college came from cheer.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yeah, all those 90% of friends 89% of them are girls. So like so like I don't I don't get where this stigma comes from.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah. Yeah, I I think it's just like oh you like you must be feminine if you are surrounded by majority female and if the majority of your friendships are female, and and like like that's just that's just not like the way it is. Like it's a much different dynamic than everyone thinks it is. Um and it's just like you you have to re like be in it to realize like the unseriousness of like male cheerleaders, especially even at like the big schools, like they get recruited because they like tried out for the football team and didn't want to commit the time, or like, or like they were a weightlifter in high school and they just like decided to try it out from a flyer and then they just like it's throwing humans in the air. Like, yeah, like it's it's the most like impractical thing ever, but it's like it like you'll never do anything like it. So it's just like this this idea of um of like challenging your beliefs and just like being able to try something new and like be a part of a team past high school that I think was it was like so attractive to me. I just I really felt like as soon as I left like the first open gym, I was like, I'm gonna give this a shot. Like this is for me.

unknown 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

And then like on top of that, no, that's like exactly exactly what it is. It's like an opportunity to kind of still be a part of something athletically past high school. Because like I was I was a good athlete in high school. Like I played baseball and um I was good at it, but I was not gonna be good enough to play at a college level. Um like I it was just like that was just like the fact of that. Like I was I was good on my team, but like I was never gonna play it at college level. And then to be able to like play a sport in college was it's like gives me the opportunity plus I get to watch a lot of other sports, which I love. Um and yeah, like it's just it's just good, it's a good experience. And then kind of like you were getting at too, like the bonds we build with these girls are are like bonds like I've never had with anybody else. Like you're you're spending so much time with them, and then on top of that, like you're you're trusting them to not hurt you, and they're trusting you to not hurt them on a constant basis. Yeah, like that's a like that that bond grows a lot just based off of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, yeah. Cause like even if you look at like other sports, like obviously there's a trust aspect, like the offensive lineman, like as a quarterback, you need to trust them so that they keep your pocket protected and you don't get hurt. But then it's like, you know, an offensive lineman, like it doesn't necessarily have to be like one person's fault or not. Like it can kind of be just like this person on the defensive line was better, or it can partially be the quarterback's fault who had nothing to do with it. And it's like cheer is not like that, like it is a very especially co-ed, because there is one person and one other person, and if the top person falls, like it is partially on the bottom person, and so yeah, like I I totally see what you mean, where it's like this sense of trust that you you don't you don't have just like in all your personal relationships, like you don't trust them to like put you in the air and just like catch you. I don't know. It's it's like so it's so like not normal, and I think that's also like what really attracted me to it.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

And like I like I I don't have any sisters, like maybe maybe you have input on this, but that's kind of like the relationship that feels like it's it almost feels like like a lot of the flyers feel like sisters to me, or um I don't know, I feel very like protective of them, but at the same time, like it's one of my best friends.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I would I would agree. Um I think I I come from a I come from a very like female dominated like I was raised by women for like most of my life. And then like obviously now I have a little sister and we have a bit of an age gap, but even like growing up, like my mom was like the person I looked up to the most. So it was just like like I I think I felt more comfortable than most would just being being around a lot of girls, just because like I'm I'm more comfortable with them, and I just like I have so many meaningful relationships with women, and they've like they've raised me to be the person I am, so I feel like I felt more comfortable after a little while, after it was like meeting everybody.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

I think that that makes a lot of sense because I kind of had like a similar like I I have two brothers and like I don't have a sister, but I have like two brothers, like I was with my dad my whole life, and like so like I've had like guys around me, but I also had a lot of girls around me too. Like my mom was a dance teacher, so I spent a lot of time at a dance studio. Um, like all of her, all of her friends were always around. Like, I had a lot of like female thing, female figures around me for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Um, was there any I would say like broad scale, bringing it full circle? Like, is there any like specific life lessons that you've learned from from cheerleading and specifically like being in an environment where you're mostly the minority?

SPEAKER_02 35:09

I mean, a lot of it kind of just like a lot of it kind of just like came with time. Like there wasn't like any like one specific moment or anything like that. But I mean, as far as just like like that teamwork and that team aspect, and also just the idea of like competition isn't everything. And um it's kind of like the basis of cheerleading is like, yeah, like cheer teams do compete, but like we're also doing so many other things, like we're supporting the football team, we're supporting the basketball team, we're supporting the like like the gymnastics team, like wrestling, like we're all over the place. So it's kind of like like it kind of made me realize like you can do things to not win, and you can do things to just like have fun sometimes and to bring out the good in other people, or to just do something to just put a smile on somebody's face instead of instead of like needing to be the best at it, if that makes sense. Like, yeah, obviously when you go to competitions, like I want to win, I want to do well, but like that's not the number one priority of cheerleading, yeah. Yeah, so I think that was kind of like the biggest takeaway, and like you can bring that into so many different aspects of life that I think was really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Well, I mean, even if you look at like just definition-wise, if you look at cheerleading, like you're leading a cheer to us assuming the masses, and you your primary job is to like lighten the mood and like bring up the energy of a crowd and make people feel happy. Yeah, so like I think it's just that idea of like putting away your beliefs and like being able to speak to the masses and like empower people.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just like just like the fact of like like giving myself to like to allow other people to have a good time is is extremely is like it's it was something I value a lot, and I think that came from cheerleading.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, yeah. And I know like you've been active all your life, so it it was like this also thing for me. Like, I was a three-sport athlete and like all through high school, so I was always going to practices and stuff, and then I picked up powerlifting like before I graduated high school, so that was like my main thing, but then I was like, oh shoot, I can like look forward to like going to practice again. And it was like it'll it'll give me something to do, like it'll get me off my ass, especially days where I like don't feel like doing anything, go get like a workout in.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, and and that's another thing too, is like it gave me a little bit of structure, whereas like whereas like I'm a busy person and I'm like, I'll still work out on my own anyway. Like I work out four or five days a week anyway. But to have that structure and just in my schedule, like I would probably go insane if I had those extra three hours a day. Yeah, like I would just I don't know what I would do with it. And like you know me, like I don't I don't really go out and I think like I mean, there's nothing wrong with going out or anything like that and having a good time, but it's like I just it's not something I'm into, so it's like I don't know what I would have done with that time in tribute and kind of was able to fill that and it's been a massive positive in my college experience for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

I think even um even though I'm not like directly involved with it all the time anymore, I think it really did give me a sense of learning how to manage my time more properly, too. Um you look at like obviously you're if you're a student athlete, you are a student before you're an athlete. So it's like it gives you an extra sense of like, okay, I need to get my shit done because I have practice tonight and I have a game tomorrow. So it was like because like that can be applied to your life because like after you graduate, you're always gonna have obligations and like places you have to be, but you're also always gonna have important things that need to get done before that before that can happen. Yeah, for sure. So um what what else are you like like what are you getting into right now? I like I know you um like have you have you been running or are you doing Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 39:19

So that's a touchy subject for me right now. I actually uh I I've I've been hurt I've been hurt lately. Um I haven't ran in probably probably about three weeks or so. I haven't ran like at all. Okay. Um I've been uh I've been nursing some IT band syndrome and it's something that I've that I've dealt with in the past. I think I think you've you've known that a little bit. Yeah. Um but like for the most part, it's just been like a little bit of pain that I can work through. Um a few weeks ago, I was uh I was running with like doing like farmer carries um at one of our RTC workouts, and I had like I just kind of like tweaked my knee a little bit, like, oh that's kind of weird, but like all right, like whatever, I kept on going. Um, and then I continued on and I just kept on running and like like I kept on running and I never like took that time off. And it got to the point where it was like bad, bad. So I haven't been running at all lately. Um trying to learn from my mistake there. Um, been doing my rehab exercises, went to the athletic trainer. Um, because I'm I'm still uh I actually competed with cheerleading a few like at like the same time like that was happening. Yeah. Um so I I like as like as my knee was getting really bad, I was um doing that virtual competition. Um uh and then so I was seeing athletic trainer, got some rehab exercises, and I've been working on that. And then I actually did my first lower body lift in about three weeks today, and I I felt good. So um hopefully I'll be able to work back into some more serious training. I would like to get more into trail running and more just running in general. When I'm when I'm training running consistently, that's when I feel the best. Um I still love strength training, like you know, me and my my hybrid arc here, but uh but running is like what makes me feel good for sure. Yeah. So other than my IT pants injury, yeah, right. Yeah, except for like other than the injury from running. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah. Well, um, well, yeah, I I guess um that's that's smart that you're not like putting a deadline for like any sort of thing on yourself right now. But I know you said you had some interest in like maybe doing like a marathon or an ultra or something after graduation. I didn't know if you were still considering that.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Yeah, I mean it probably won't be it probably like won't be this summer or anything like that, but I would definitely like to get up into um I really like trail running. And so I would I think that like like an ultra makes more sense for trail running than like trying to run a marathon. Like when I think of a marathon, I think of people on the road running a marathon as fast as they can. It's kind of like the kind of like what I think of. Whereas like I think the trail running in ultra marathon community are much more just like, hey, we're gonna go out and have a good time and just run for a long time and try to finish. Yeah. And that's more along the lines of like what I'm interested in. Um, maybe within that progression, I'll hit a marathon at some point. But ultimately, I would like to maybe do like a 50K or even like 50 miler at some point on the trails. I think that'd be a it'd be a really good endeavor that I'm probably gonna chase once once tree leading is done for. I don't want to ever say it's done, but like once um I'm no longer here at Central and directly involved with true leading anymore, and that'll probably be the route that I start to go.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah. I mean, I I like frequently look into my future and I see I see like a portion of running in it. Now I don't really know what that looks like yet because I feel like if I were to pursue running, I would want to like be good at it. And like the position that I'm in right now, like with powerlifting, powerlifting and running are two conflicting things. It's like you can't be like you can be good at both, but you can't be like super competitive at both. Like it's just it's just not the same. So you you basically have to live two different lifestyles, and it's like you end up just kind of being like mediocre or semi good at both.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Shout out to my former coach, Alex Viada, who actually coined the term hybrid athlete. So now we can just say we're hybrid athletes instead of bad lifters and bad runners.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Facts. Facts.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

So yeah, but No, it's just like I just I felt I feel like I would love to like get into running as a hobby. Like I think running a um running a marathon would be like super cool in the future. Um but then like I have to put an asterisk next to it and it's like well when my strength starts to decline. And like and like I think that's just such a big problem because like I don't want to like await the day that I start declining in strength because that means it'll happen quicker.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

I don't wanna I don't wanna turn 30 and just be like, okay, I guess I have to suck at powerlifting now because I'm 30, because I started when I was 20. Like most of the top level powerlifters like in the world are like in their late 20s, early 30s. So it's like I can do this for a long time. Um but yeah, like I I think it's just it's such a cool thing to do because like anyone can do it. Like anybody can like put on a pair of shoes, go outside and just run. Like you don't need anything. You don't like, yes, obviously, like you can have a training program, you can have a coach, you don't need anything though. Like it's one of the very few things in this world that you can like pursue that sucks and you can get really good at without needing anything.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

And I think I mean I think you talked about wanting to like be good at it too. I think that's something that like it's a little bit easier for me to see with running, but like as with lifting, being good is relative, you know what I mean? So like there's like different ways to be good, and I think just like for me to see I can see that a little bit better with running. Um whereas like, yeah, like this person might be good at the two mile, but I'm good at the 10k. Um, this person might be good at the marathon, but like, but like will they ever be able to run a 50 miler? Like maybe they burn out, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, or like even like even like sprints, like, you know, one person might be a really good, a really good 100-meter uh sprinter, but can they can they run the two mile? Like any of those types of things. Yeah. Um, like there's so many different variances of it and so many different ways to go about it. But I definitely see I definitely see your point there though. I just like I was kind of the same way with like lifting. Like I trained, I never competed powerlifting. Um, but I trained powerlifting for a while. Um, I actually had a coach, like a powerlifting coach, uh, for a little bit there. And I just kind of realized like, you know, I'm never gonna be good at this. So, like, what's the point? And I think if I were to go back in that time of my life, I would not think that. Yeah. Um, I think my view on that would have or is changed now. And I think I would have competed just for the fun of it. But um I don't have a desire to do that anymore, so I'm not gonna do it. But um, but I think I can I can see I can see what your point is like as far as as far as if you're gonna do something, you might as well you might as well do it all out and try to be good at it. Yeah, I just think that like also there are other factors with running, like what like I think it's really cool to be strong and to be a good runner, um, which is I think kind of where I'm at right now. It's like I'm yeah, I'm not gonna be the I'm never gonna be the best runner in a room, but I'm also I'm also never gonna be the best lifter in a room, but I can deadlift 400 and I can and I can run a half marathon in um in sub hour 50. So like yeah, I'm not good at either, but like compared to the general population, I'm definitely not at the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I and like I think like the the amount of people that can do both of those things are like it's it's actually like not as high as people think. Like they'll hear those numbers and be like, wow, like that's good, I guess, but not crazy. But like the amount of people that can do both of those things at the same time is not many.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

And I find that to be really cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah, and I think I think one of the biggest things that like strays me away from like I shouldn't say quitting powerlifting, but like if I were to like kind of ease out on it and like try to pick up running and try to do both, like I've been like a competitive person all my life, but like I haven't necessarily found something that I was really good at, if that makes any sense. Like I've been very I'm I'm the same way, yeah. Like very competitive, very competition oriented, but like I've never like found something that I was like really good at. Like, and and I wouldn't say I'm like really good at powerlifting, but like it was the one it was the first thing that I I realized like oh I can like I can actually find a place in this, like I can be competitive in this. And I think it would just be like hard to give up, and I think that's why I would be like so hesitant to like not try to put everything I have into it, because I feel like I can actually be good at it. Not that I couldn't be good at running, but like I've I've already built this foundation of like being competitive and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

No, that makes that makes a lot of sense. And like I I definitely I definitely see exactly where you're coming from because I'm the I'm kind of the same way on that. I'm the same way on that. I'm just like my competitive, like I was kind of saying earlier, my competitive spirit has kind of just like dissipated a little bit, especially especially like with what we're talking about, like kind of like seeing cheerleading, um, having like having gone through all the different sports and all of the different um I've been at the top of sports, I've been at the bottom. Um seeing how sports impact people in just other other ways outside of just winning and losing have kind of formed me to uh get rid of that competitive spirit a little bit, but I I still am that person at nature, so yeah. So I kind of see what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah. Um, so you you kind of briefly mentioned it earlier. What was working with Vietal like?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Dude, it was it was unreal. Like I've never like I've had coaches in the past before, and um I can I can build out a program myself like what to be what I think is pretty good, especially like hybrid. Um but like that dude is meticulous, and he is so smart, like he is smart beyond anybody that I've ever met in my life. Um he knows everything, like everything there is to know about the human body, like he can tell you. Like, like I like one time I got a bully nose on a run, he like he like looked at the air in like his Michigan and he's like, this is why like he like broke he like broke it down and like it's insane. Um but uh I've never been in such good shape in my life. Like I was I think I ripped uh like 95s on an incline for 12 and then ran a 13-minute two mile like in the same week. Like, yo, yeah, and and I'm and I'm 150 pounds, like yeah, yeah, like I shouldn't be lifting that much, and then also running that fast. Like, yeah, my body's not built for that, and like I was doing that, and like it's kind of crazy because I feel like I'm like working just as hard right now, and I'm nowhere near that.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

So do you so uh do you do you just feel like it was the the programming that like made you that much better than you are right now, even trying as hard as you are, or do you feel like it was just having a coach to push you in general?

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Um, I mean, I think it's it's gotta be a little bit of both. Um but like also like I'm I'm pretty self-motivated. Like I can push myself pretty far. So I feel like I don't necessarily need a coach for that. I mean, it's always it's always good to have a coach for that, but like, but like I think I can push myself pretty far. Um, I think there was just something to do with programming. Uh he was he was looking at all the data and just really dialed it in. And I I feel like I'm structuring my workouts still like relatively similar to how he did, but like just not getting those results, which I mean I'm still getting good results, don't get me wrong. Like I'm still making progress and like and like doing the thing, but like where yeah, like his programming was just dialed in. I mean, he's been doing it for so long and worked with so many different athletes. Like he clearly knows what he's doing. Um I think the the lifting is actually despite like my numbers being really good on lifting, um, I think the lifting was less impressive than the running. Like, I got to the point where like like he would tell me to like like these paces I was hitting, I I wasn't believing it. Like I would look at this work, I would look at a workout and just be like, there's no way I could do this. And then I'd I'd be texting him afterwards and be like, be like, hey, by the way, like these paces were a little too easy. I don't know if like you meant to make it this easy, but like beforehand, I'm like having a heart attack because I'm like, there's no way to be able to do this. Yeah. Um, but also at the same time though, like it almost like wasn't like seeing the numbers and like getting that good was was a lot of fun and like it was really cool to do. But like also my runs in my lifts and those things like weren't fun because they were so structured. And okay, he probably didn't necessarily want me to be like this structured with it. I just like probably have an unhealthy relationship with exercise where, like, if you tell me to do something, I'm going to do it to a T. Like, I was literally going for runs, not even looking up. Like, I would like had my watch like this and just like stared at it like in front of my eyes the whole run. Yeah, I remember you told me about that. And like if my heart rate was one beat off, I was mad. If my pace was one second off, like it was not a good workout.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Um and like I know that sounds dramatic, but like that's also why I was so good at it at that point.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Yeah. Yeah. So that's that that's that's one of the that's one of the things that um I I I go back to whenever I look at like these top-level guys, I like to say that um, like, you know, there's this the saying, like, don't sweat the small stuff, and I'm like, well, you know what we call the people that sweat the small stuff, right? Great. We call them great. We call them the people we watch on TV, the guys that sweat the small stuff. So it's like, yeah, for sure, like having a coach that was like that into like what you were doing, and like because I I hate when people like when it's just like a so a person on social media gets a big following, they just start doing coaching and they just kind of like hand out a template program to people for 50 bucks a month. And I think it's just like it was so cool to see someone um like locally that was in touch with like one of these big guys, and like he actually was like very much involved in your programming.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Yeah, which is like actually kind of it's kind of kind of crazy though, because like he he very much preaches like go off of feel more than anything else, uh huh. Which like he uses he uses these data points, but he's like he very much preaches if you feel this way, like this is the biggest thing, which um I I kind of just ignored that and went off the data points. But like, but like that's like what he he expresses a lot. So I think there's like definitely like a there's definitely a good balance there as far as like having a healthy relationship and like going off the field and then actually using the data in an appropriate way. Like I think I might have mentioned this to you before, but like talk about how like he was explaining that um he was playing the Norwegian method and um how a lot of like professional Norwegian ultra marathoners are literally blood testing like for their lactate measurements as they're running. Yeah. Like it's like a they have like a CGM, but it's like for lactate. Like that's actually like wild. Like, yeah, like I I feel like that's a different level. Yeah. And I don't think anybody needs to be at that level unless you're like the number five ranked ultramarathoner in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

That's that's something that's like super cool to me, like going into physical therapy and like studying exercise science, learning about um like human physiology and stuff. And it's like you look at these devices and it's like you see how meticulous this is, but then you realize like that is how small scale the body adapts. Like, like these tools are useful, they're not just like procs that they're buying for a lot of money that don't do anything. Like, you can actually take accurate measurements of your blood levels to determine like your performance for a run or how close you are to fatiguing. Like on a scale.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

You can see, like, am I gonna be store tomorrow based off of this one number?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly. And it's like it could be two ticks below the state the the standard deviation, and you're like, Yeah, I'll be fine tomorrow. Like, I'll I'll I'll be literally fine. Yeah, it's so it's so crazy how like small scale on a cellular level the body performs functions and adapts to the stimulus you put on it. Like insane the correlation. But I just kind of wanted to ask you about that because I haven't like obviously like I have a powerlifting coach. I have friends that have had like bodybuilding coaches and stuff in the past, but um something something like that where it was like people know this dude's name, like they go to him for coaching, like people apply and don't get into his coaching because he doesn't take on that many people, so that he can like actually apply all of his knowledge to his set of clients, and they feel like they're getting getting like their monies and time's worth.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Yeah, and I it's actually like I don't know how like I got into that too. Like, I literally spot on like his Instagram one day, like, hey, like I have a spot opening, applied here, and I like applied because I was I've been following him for so long, and I've I like he was like a finest hero to me. Um, like he was that guy, and uh I applied. And I when I first saw like how much it was, like how much money it was to do, I was like, dude, there's like I can't afford this, like what? And but I'm also like, hey, like there's no way I'm gonna actually get it. Like I'll just apply or whatever. And if I get it, I'll do three of the three months and call it good. Yeah. And I ended up doing like like I think like seven or eight months, um, just because it was so awesome. But um, but yeah, I I don't know what made him want to work with me. If it was just like I I think I just posed a unique challenge for him because I was doing so many different things. Um, like that's his thing, obviously, is like working with people that do two different things. But I was doing like three or four different things, and also just like I enjoyed certain things. Yeah.

unknown 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

And I think he really liked that.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

So that's cool. Well, um staying on the topic of fitness, um, we'll pivot a little bit. Um, talk to me about boxing. Because uh Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just just go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

So I I got like a full full story on this one. Um I this is this is like this is like story has like formed like fundamentally who I am as a person. Um and I I've told a few people this and like I've talked about it a fair amount, but like every time I say it, it doesn't seem like it doesn't sound significant, but like to me in my head, it's like the most significant thing in the world. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

And you might have heard pieces of it at certain points, but yeah, well, um, the only like thing I have to go off of is like I know you like you did a fight last was it last year or two years ago? That was last year, yeah. It was last year. So it was like I like I knew you pretty close at that point, and like I knew you had like mentioned it, but like I don't have any friends that have like actually gone and done something like that on like a local scale. So it's really weird for me to like see the ring pictures and stuff, but that's the that's the crazy thing. I'm curious because I I know there's an origin story behind it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

That's another thing too, though, is like it's crazy like the amount of people that like say they box or say they do MMA or say they do X, Y, or Z, but like they don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Like you just go to a Jiu-Jitsu gym two nights a week and like sweat. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yeah, and like you like hit a punching bag at your local gym, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

I mean that's the roll stop.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like people like like will be like, oh, I box, and then like that's what they do. It's like that's it's like nut it. I'm like I'm pouring blood out every single night. Like yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, so I actually started boxing when I was seven years old. Um my grandpa was a big time boxer in my hometown. Um, he was actually the oldest man to ever compete in the tough man contest. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of that. It's a big, it's a big boxing tournament hosted um hosted by this guy from Bay City. And he it got to be a really big deal. And my grandpa's the oldest man to ever compete. Uh, I don't think he won. I think he came in second when he was that old. Um, I don't know if he ever won or anything like that. But um, so he he kind of always took us to boxing shows and like it was always like a thing in my life. And when I was seven, like I went to a boxing show uh with my with my family, and which is like a really weird family activity to do, like I went to like a local boxing show, which if you're ever went to an amateur local boxing show, it's not the type of place you usually take a seven-year-old. Yeah, no, it's usually like like people bleeding out of their face with face tattoos and like all sorts of like it's like not the not to get in, not a good environment for a seven-year-old. Yeah. Um, and uh, I like thought was like this is awesome. Like, I need to do this. And um my grandpa was like semi-hesitant on taking me in to do it, but my mom kind of like feel like I wanted to do it, and she kind of she kind of like made him take me. Yeah. Um have you like years later, like my mom ended up like not liking me boxing at all. Um, that's a different that's a different story. Uh and um so I I ended up boxing and I stayed boxing for a while. Like when you're young, like you don't fight that much, but like maybe like once or twice a year. But um, so I ended up having like 13 fights from the time I was seven to the time I was the day before my 14th birthday. Um, I was awful. Like I I won one match out of 13. Dang. Um but like I loved it. Like it was it was awesome. And then plus my grandpa was like my coach. Yeah. So it was like a good bond between us and um and like it was just something I really enjoyed doing. Um, have you like a like a boxer that's one in 12 is a lot better than a boxer that is zero and zero. So like yeah, I in the grand scheme of things, like I was still good. Like I just like was losing all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Here, um I was never sorry, one second. I'm gonna stop you real quick. I'm just gonna pause. I'll be right back. All right, you're good.

unknown 1:03:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

All right, we're good. Pick up where you can remember. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

All right, so so at uh yeah, so I was um I was one and twelve, so I wasn't very good. But um that last match I had, it was the day before my 14th birthday. So I was like starting to get to the age where like boxing is getting like serious. Like somebody that has 15, 20 fights by the time they're by the time they're like that age, like it doesn't matter what your record is, like you're good. Um and as you start to like progress, like it's it's a serious thing at that age, right? Like people get hurt, like it's it's legit boxing. Yeah, um, it's no longer like kids' boxing. Um so my grandpa's my coach. Uh, I'm starting to train up for this fight. It's like trying to think of the exact timeline, but it's like right around it's high school football. We went to a high school football game. I remember this, and um, my grandpa said he's not feeling it and he has to get to go home. So we're about a month or so out from my from my boxing match, and we're at a high school football game, and my grandpa says he just doesn't feel good, he has to go home. That's like a problem in my brain because my grandpa is the toughest man on planet earth. Like he was like he was 70 years old and like would still go to bars and just like fight people. Like, that's just like who he was. Like, so him not feeling good was insane to me. Like that just like was so foreign to me. Um he ended up having stage four pancreatic cancer. Um and then he was on hospice, and then he passed away uh November 3rd. And then yeah, November 3rd, and then my fight was November 12th. Uh so like that that like week or so was really hard for me because I'm like, I still was like committed to this fight. I'm not gonna like not fight. But like also like my coach and my grandpa died. Like it was really, I was really close with him too, obviously. Um, and he died. And then I was just like devastated. Like I didn't, I didn't know how I was gonna do this. Um, but anyway, I I got in and dude, I had like the best fight of my life. Like it was, it went the distance. Well, I shouldn't say the best fight of my life because I did have a one win by knockout, but like um, like the fight went the distance and like it was like I I like knew I won. Um, but they when they announced the winner, like my hand just stayed down and I was like really confused. Like the other person won, and it made no sense to me. Um I was like in a frenzy, like I didn't know, and like my grandpa didn't have a funeral, like this was his funeral. Like everybody came to like the show was dedicated to him, and like it was it was a big deal. At least in my brain, it was a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

Uh and I was like the guy at that show. And I lost, and I was just like, it just devastated me. So I for probably a few years I didn't step foot in a in a boxing ring again. Um, I had always like missed it though, and like it was kind of like that like feeling of like, what if? Like, what if I stayed boxing? Like that could have been the thing I was good at. Um and I just never, I just never did though. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. But um, after a while, I went back to the gym a few times to kind of like say what's up to people and like and just kind of like do the thing again. And I would like work with people and spar and kind of to more so like to help out than anything else. But um, it was never like it was never like a serious or like competitive thing again. Um fast forward to uh that would have been fast forward to last year. So that was that flight was 2016. So fast forward to like December 2024. Um I knew a guy that was trying to get into coaching, and he had mentioned something about it on like a Snapchat story, and I had like hit him up and I was just like, hey man, I think I want to box again. And he was like, All right, let's like let's get trained. So I started training. Um, have you? I'm in college, like I'm a busy person, I'm in Mount Pleasant, he's in Saginaw, so it's not like I can't do this every single night, right? So I started training like like once a week or so, once every couple weeks, training on my own a little bit, um, yada yada yada. And he started bringing me into this this new gym um over in Essexville. Uh and it ended up being like Grand Smith Brother's house, actually. Um, this gym in Essexville is awesome. Um, but uh he started bringing me into there where like there's like a head coach and like it's like a formal gym. And the the coach there started like we started talking, and um, I just said like, hey, like I wanna I want to fight again, like no real context, like nobody really knew like why I wanted to fight again, or like nobody really knew my story or anything like that. And I just like I kind of just did my thing and I explained, like, hey, I'm in college, like I'll be here like once a week. Uh Francisco is his name. He's the dude is awesome. Like, he let me come in there for free and like train. And um, I don't know why he did this. Like, I don't know if like I don't know if he just like felt bad or if it was just like I don't know why, but um like I'm like forever indebted to him. Like he like just like did everything for me. And then uh there was a fight coming up in February, February 22nd of 2025, where like it was in Basic City where I could compete pretty easily, right? Um, so I put my name on the list for I Wanna Fight here. He started looking for fights for me. Um, in the meantime, I had saw like an Instagram post that one of my buddies that I used to know from boxing, like from the nine years prior, uh, I saw he was boxing again. And he's had like he's like said he had like four fights since he came back. He was in the navy, came back, started boxing again, had like four fights, um, been back in the back in the game for a year or two. And I'm still working. And so I I kind of like DM'd him on Instagram and was like, hey man, like just out of curiosity, how much do you weigh? And he was 157. So I stepped on the scale, 157. And I'm like, you wanna you wanna match up for like this February 22nd show? And he was like, Yeah, sure. So we kind of told our coaches, like, hey, like, this is the guy, like, we're good to go. And they were cool with it. Like, it was just too easy, awesome. Um, there was I think there was a little bit of a problem just because uh like my record officially like showed that I had zero fights because I hadn't boxed in so long. Like it like USA boxing, like wiped my record. So I think that they were kind of like a little bit like weird that my boxing showed zero and zero, like thought my coach was like lying or something. But I was like, well, like like we know each other, like it's cool, like you like we know where we're at, right? Um and plus my team was like actually training and like had like had like a couple years right then, so like I had nothing for like eight years. Yeah. Um, so like it was like in my opinion, it was it was fair, and I I don't see why I don't think I think he would agree. Um but so we paired up. Um, I was still training, I was only training like once, maybe twice a week. I uh and then you you were probably aware of this. Uh this like this night was like ingrained in my head. I was at practice and we were kind of just doing our thing. It was like stunt season. So like we weren't really like we weren't really doing a whole lot on our phones, hanging out, drawing some tons of once in a while. And I got a call from my aunt, and um, I'm close to my aunt, but like it's weird for her to call me like that. Um she said she brought my mom to the hospital, and my my aunt's a nurse practitioner, and I could walk in like carrying my leg that just fell off, and like she would be casual about it, right? Yeah, she's seen everything there is to see, and like nothing can really shock her. And she said she brought my mom to the hospital, and that right there like triggered something is wrong. Like, she wouldn't do that. Um my mom had previously had breast cancer, uh, but she was in remission and like she like everything was tracking to be good, right? And um, she had just I kind of zoned out. Like once she said she brought my mom to hospital because I knew like something is bad. And she went on to kind of explain how my mom had cancer again, it was everywhere, it was bad. Um, that's that's the gist of it. And she then explained like the different options we had and how moral of the story, there's not much time no matter what option we take. Um as I'm training for this boxing match, I'm like, are you serious? Like, this is like I was kind of playing like like the pitiful person of like, why is this happening to me type thing? Um so that went on for a few weeks where my mom was in hospice and it went downhill very, very quickly. And she ended up uh passing away the Tuesday before that boxing match. Um, I was obviously like devastated. Like my mom was really, really close to my mom. That was really hard for me. Um and I was training for this boxing match and a lot going on. So, like that entire or the day she actually passed, like the night she passed away, I was actually in town, like in Bay City training. Like my routine was like I would train on Tuesday, see my mom, come back to school, and then like repeat that cycle. So um I was uh I was sorry, my mom that night, and like she wasn't doing good. Um, and it was kind of like the question of like, do you want to stay tonight or do you want to go back to school and go to school the next day? And I chose to go back to school the next day. I thought like I I knew we didn't have long, but I didn't think it was be that night. So um I got home and at 11 o'clock my aunt called. I answered the phone, and he didn't even say a word. I just hung up and left. Um, I went to Bay City and then I didn't train that entire like the entire rest of that week. Um, we just planned the funeral. Um, so like that was like the hardest week of my life, obviously. Like my mom passed away, I had to plan the funeral, and um then we had the funeral set for Friday, boxing match Saturday. At this point, nobody really knows. I mean, like it has maybe came up in conversation here and there, but like nobody really knows I'm boxing. Um come time for the funeral, like whispers start getting around at the funeral home that I'm boxing, and like people start like asking me, like, they're like they would come up to me, hug me, like say they're starting for my loss, and then ask if I was boxing the next day. And I was like, Yeah, I am, but like I don't want to talk about her now. And that was kind of that conversation. Um, so that day, that that Friday was very hard, but like my mom was an extremely loved person. Like, like I said, she taught dance. So um, like in that profession, like there's like you absolutely meet a lot of people and get very close with a lot of people. So there was like I've never seen a funeral so much support in my life. Like it was like that aspect of it was amazing. Like, and then a lot of my friends showed up, and like it was it was really good to have like that kind of sport, right? But it was still a very hard day nonetheless. Um that night I was in the shower and I was just like feeling very pitiful, and just like, why is this happening to me? Like, I was supposed to be doing this fight for me, like what, like this is like it was me, me, me, me, me. And I just heard this voice, and I have no other explanation other than it was God. Cause like I know I want to say this to myself, but it just said it's not about you. And I was just like, I like literally looking around, I was like, who said that? Yeah, why? Like, I I didn't say that, I wasn't thinking that clearly, like it, and I just heard it's not about you, and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna go do the thing, and I'm not gonna think about me. So, anyway, woke up the next day. Um, actually, the side note, my my nose started bleeding the night before I I had a DK to step, and my nose was really bad. So, like I was like really worried about my nose the whole time, and like it was a it was a bad time. Um, but like like the whole uh yeah, like my my nose was not dealing well. So like there's kind of like a little funny side story to that. Like, like I think my nose cauterized like Saturday morning before the boxing match. But um, other than that, like a normal day, I just like went to the weigh-ins and whatnot. Like uh way to I like this this boxing show is in like a it's in a boys and girls club, it's in a super small gym. Like if you think of like an amateur boxing, like an amateur boxing show, like have you ever seen like Here Comes the Boom? And if you're seeing this the amateur, yeah, like the amateur fights that he's gone, yeah, like that's not dramatic. Like that's like genuinely like on par with with like an amateur boxing show. Um, but like we're like a bunch of dudes standing around in their underwear, like we're ready to weigh in. Um most people are like big dogging each other, like they see their opponent, they're trying to like big dog them, like yada yada yada. Me and my dude are just like sitting there chatting it off, like we're weighing, like we're waiting next to each other, like like being like being like buddies, yeah, like catching up with each other. Uh because we haven't seen each other in eight, nine years, and I want to catch up. And uh I'm like the 15th fight on the card. So like I got my call, like we got like we got a while here. Um so like we had a we had a long way to go before the actual match, and it just felt like eternity, but like other than that, like it was like a normal time. Um, but like I had a really weird situation where I think I was a second fight after second or third fight after intermission, but like my gym had another guy fighting the fight before me. So like our coaches were warming him up, and like not just like forgot about my fight, but like he was first. I was after him, so like it was just like I didn't have like so um I I'm sitting there like warming up with like the opposite, like my opponent's coach. I I'm warming up with him, yeah. Like he's like warming me up on the mist because like like I know that guy from like when I previously boxed because he he's the coach of my other gym or the old gym that I went to. Yeah, and like he's like like me and him are super cool. Like, so he's like warming me up, and then like he's like, okay, I gotta go warm up Nate. Like, I gotta go. So I go in, wave in one of my friends from college that was like training with me a little bit when I was here, and like he starts warming me up for a little bit. And then like I have like a two-minute warm up outside of like the stretching and whatnot that I was doing on my own. Um, and then I go in and we're uh they announce our names like in the ring, right? And I'm like, I've been pretty tunnel vision like this whole like this whole day. Like I've been seeing like people here and there, but like put up tunnel vision, like I'm not really like I'm not talking to people. Um boxing is a boxing is a really tough thing for like your mental because like you're going into a small confined space with two people that are trying to hurt each other. Like you got to get to a pretty dark place mentally, like, not to like be a dramatic person, but like that's kind of like the fact of the matter. So like I'm not going around hanging out with my friends during this day. And I don't really know who was all there. I just have seen a few people in in passing. And we get into the ring, tunnel vision's on, they announce our names. And after they announce our names, we're standing there, like the bell's not ringing. We're like, what's going on? Turns out, like a judge had to go to the bathroom, and like they didn't tell anybody, and like the ref is just like waiting for the bell to ring, and like the person is just not there. So, like, on top of like all this like built up like yeah, tension that I've had throughout the day of like like I just feel really tight and whatnot. I'm just sitting there for legitimately like five minutes, yeah. And and it felt like eternity, and like every time I was like sitting there awkwardly, and then game time. So I know I've boxed this guy before, or I've boxed with this guy before, and my coach knows him. We all know each other. This dude's probably six foot tall, um, lanky guy, real technical boxer because he's been boxing a lot. I'm like, I know I'm not gonna outbox him. Um, he's gonna be a better boxer than me for sure. So I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I just gotta be like come out like a ball of fire and hopefully catch him, right? Um, I come out and I catch him. I I I get him, I like I I had I had a plan. I'm gonna I'm gonna parry his jab right away and close the distance. He's way taller than me. I just need to get in on him. I just need to snuff him out, and somehow it worked, like it worked to perfection. Like, so like the first like 30 seconds of this fight, I just like dominated and I can just like feel the crowd like erupting, right? Yeah. Um from that point on, he caught me with a jab and like right on the right on the nose, and nose started pouring out blood. And a lot of times in amateur boxing, like as soon as the recipe's blood, like it's game over. Um, so I like feel the blood start pouring out, and I'm like the rest gonna call it. Like, I'm just kind of like keep on going, but like I'm kind of just like playing tag with each other. Yeah, and I'm like, he's gonna call it, he's gonna call it, he's gonna call it. And he never does. So I'm like, okay, I made it for the first round. I'm like, all right, like maybe he's not gonna worry about this, like whatever. And I just I get to the corner. This is so fun. I have a video of this. Um, the my coach takes a towel and starts like wiping my face. I don't know if you were boxed for two minutes, but like it's not easy. I'm like in a ring, like I'm like he's like covering my face with this towel, wiping it off. And I'm over in the corner with a boxing glove on. Like and um, all three of my coaches were Mexican, and like they they don't speak very good English, and like they're they might be saying something. I'm not even understanding. No idea what's going on, and um, so anyway, like that was the first round was like essentially like I got I'm pretty good, but like I was bleeding also really good. Um second round was close. He he took the second round. Um third round, I don't I don't even know how I'm walking at this point. I'm so out of shape. I've been training one day a week, like it's a bad day. Um but I it the third round is close. Um looking back at it, look at like I've watched the video a few times, like it's a lot closer than I felt. I was so dragging tired that like it felt like I just got destroyed and like picked apart. But like I watched the video back and I think the third round could have gone either way. Um nonetheless, like I felt awful about it. I like I came back to the corner and knew I lost, but like the final bell rang, dude. And I kid you not, like that was like the first time I like looked around and like saw like this entire gym. Like, there's probably four or five hundred people in this gym in like a really tight space. Half of them are there to see this fight at least, like just for this fight, because he's from Bay City, I'm from Bay City, and then like of those half, half those people, like most of them are there because they heard at my grandma's or at my mom's funeral the day before that like I was fighting. So like I'm looking around and like this place is going nuts. Like, how do you like even for the people that weren't there just to see that fight? Like, we just put on like we put on like a show, dude. Like it was the I might be like I guess I'm saying this, but like it was like the best, like I've ever can you hear me?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

Yeah, yeah, you just you cut out for a second, but yeah, yeah, I heard you. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:15

Yeah, yeah. I think it's uh I think it was like the best box match that like I've ever been a part of for sure. And looking back at it, like it was like one of the best boxing matches I've ever seen. Um in this like little tiny gma of 157-pound boxers with uh like in Bay City, Michigan with a few other people watching. Like it was it was awesome. Um, and I finally see that, and like I just like realized like, oh, like this wasn't about me this whole time. Like all these people that for the last three weeks have just been like nothing but tears watching my mom like wither away, like and just like they watched her die. And like now I'm seeing like my uncle who I've never seen show emotion before, like crying tears of joy, like seeing this. Um, and it was the best feeling that I've ever had in my life. And like I I in my head at that point, I knew I lost. Like looking back, I probably wouldn't have like I watched the fight, I probably wouldn't have thought that. But like looking back, like I I knew I lost in that moment. But like I'm looking around and like just seeing this, and like it meant so much to me outside of just like winning and losing. And getting out of that ring, like the the I must have been a PA that was like doing the physical real quick afterwards, get the posture test. Like, I like I couldn't care any less about like what like why is this person in my way? Like, I want to go hug my family. And she's like, she's like checking my eyes, right? Like the like to the light. She's like, follow, follow light with your eyes, nothing but your eyes. And I do it, and she's like, No, like just your eyes. And I was like, do the same thing again. She's like, it's fine, just like go. Like, okay, like I'm definitely not okay, but whatever. Um, and then uh, but yeah, so like I end up like seeing all these people, and like it was it was amazing. Like I had every from like my RTC instructor came to watch, and like that meant so much to me. And then, like, on top of that, like just like my whole family, and just like seeing all of these people, like all my high school friends, and like there had to have been 50, 60 people there, like as soon as I got out of the ring to just like line up and like give me a hug. Like, it was and it meant so much to me. Like, like he won, and I kind of felt bad because like he won and he deserved the win and he did great, but nobody cared. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, like I think he had like two people there that like after the fight, like that him up and were like, Good job. Yeah, like that's where a big shift in my mind happened to where like this fight for so long. Was about me and like me sulking. And it shifted so fast to be like, this is about everything but me. And like it just meant so much to me. And it was it was really weird too. Cause like a few days prior to that, like Francisca, my like the head coach of that gym, um, he knew about my mom. And um I wasn't even training, I just like came into the gym to kind of like talk to him, and he kind of like explained like how like people like seeing sports and like sports can just like bring people together. And I just like didn't get it because I was so focused on myself and I just like didn't understand, but like now, like I can hear like what he was saying, and it makes so much sense to like we're doing these things not just for us, but like they bring people together, and it means a lot more than just winning and losing. So that's something I've like definitely carried with me, and like that story is a big piece of who I am. So, like, if you like you see the tattoo of my arm, like that's like what that whole story is about.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I never really I never knew the whole story, I never knew it was like that in depth. Um, do you have any like future plans or do you think that was kind of like no dude, like that was like that was it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:17

Like, I previously like when I ended boxing, like when I was when I was 14 there, like I was so cynical and like ended boxing, like that's that's why. It's like I just went on like the highest note possible, and like I I have no desire to box again. Yeah, yeah. That's but like I I love I love the sport though, and um actually like a few like I think like two months later, um Nate, the guy at boxed, um, who like I said, I just had like the the fight of the night for sure, and like I like took him the distance. Um he actually won the state championship by by knockout. So like I'm like, oh like it kind of like made me think like maybe I'm not so bad at this. Yeah, yeah. So dang. Yeah. But yeah, I'm I'm over it though for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:05

Yeah. I mean, that's like what what better way to like put something to rest of just like this spending a majority of your youth doing this thing, quitting in cynicism, and then deciding to come back only to be faced with one of the main reasons that like discouraged you from the previous fight, and then it's like you have this person close to you that passes away, and it's like that's all you can think about, but then it's like in that moment, it's like yeah, you have to worry about this fight, but it's not about you, so like stop making it about you.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:45

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's like it's like a really big challenge too, because like like boxing is something like you have to be selfish with to some degree, and like it's not something you just like mess around with, but like also like it's still a fun sport, and it's still something that like that can isn't just about the people in the ring, like it's people are watching it, and like that's that's why we like sports so much, is like it it gives us hope. It like there's stories around it, it represents a lot more than just like what's going on in the ring. Yeah, yeah. So that's that's really cool. And that that kind of that kind of that helped me a lot with uh like with coaching, with um like with all sorts of different things, but um I know like this made me feel really good. That one practice. I don't know if you remember that one practice where like you guys were having like the worst practice of all time. Like you guys sucked, like straight up. Like it was like everything was falling. Um, Dayron was just in a mood. Um, it was like nobody's having a good time with this practice. And you guys were all out in uh in the hall, like talking, and um somebody was like throwing up in the corner, yada yada yada, like it was all over the place. I don't remember this.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

I won't mention names, but I I know who it was and what you're talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:09

Yeah. So I I came over and I kind of I kind of briefly like had talked about this like lesson that I've like learned through this, um, like clearly summarizing it like a lot and like not like giving any, I don't even think I mentioned boxing, but like kind of just like going through like the details of like or not the going through like the broad stroke of like, hey, like this isn't about like winning or losing. Like you guys need to like, I just and it was a speech that like I'm not a very speechy type person. Um, I don't like preaching to people. I I know as an athlete, like I don't want to be preached to. I I can self-motivate myself and I don't need other people talking to me. So I tried to not be that person as a coach and more so to try to be like a person that you guys can come to and like talk to. But I felt like it needed it at this point. And I came over and um kept it real brief and just like like said what I needed to say. And I felt kind of like a little bit of a shift right away. And I just like walked away. And I felt like Er Brooks from the movie Miracle, where like that'll fire him up, like like after he like walks away, and uh and Day Ron is like, what'd you say? And I was like, not much, and like that was like all I said to him. And I didn't say anything as far as like details of what I said. I just like I was like, not much. And you guys came out, and I think you like almost hit the routine, like maybe like one or two drops, but like as far as like what you guys did, it was the best routine you have done up until that point. And then we continued on to have like the next, like, the next like hour of like the best practice we've had, maybe ever. And like I went home that night feeling so fulfilled, like that was probably the happiest I've ever been, like as a coach, and maybe even like just like feeling like like I did something, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:06

Yeah, yeah. It was it was kind of in that moment where I think, you know, because obviously you whenever you're in a team setting, your your first thought is like, it's not about me, it's about the team. But then it's like as soon as you like step on the mat, like with all your insecurities and like the bad practice we were having, like all that goes out the window because it's like this routine is sucking right now because I suck. And it's like I suck, so the routine's gonna suck. And then it it like like I said, I I don't know if it was just like you being personable and like you coming to us, and I like to be honest, I don't know what came through your head to like come up and talk to us at that moment, but like I will tell you like that was like the worst the team morale has felt.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:04

Because it was I can I can tell you like it was it was so someone specific on the team. Um like like she just said like we need somebody to like be there for us, and like they like that person wasn't feeling that. Um and she had made it known to me like earlier in that day that like that's what she needed, and I didn't know how to do that. I was just like, I'll be here for you, and that's all I can do. Um, and I she actually like yelled at me, like she, I I get I can tell you a story offline a little bit more, but um, like she was like she straight up like yelled at me that practice, like and I just ate it. Like she was right, like she was like, like they needed somebody, and like she was like in my face, like saying mean things to me. Like, and I just like sat there and just like took it, and I was like, She's she's 100% right. So, like, I just didn't know how to fix it, if that makes sense. So, when you guys were out there and like I could see kind of what was going on, like as far as like it was a what was happening was not positive, and like something had to happen. So I just I'm just like I'm going to like Daron is kind of looking at me and he's kind of just like, What's going on? Yada yada yada. And I'm like, I'll I'll be right back. And I kind of actually walked over, and we always tried to give you that time for you guys, like we tried to stay out of that time, and like we wanted you guys to like focus on yourself at that time. Um, and I was like, I'll just be right back. And I came back again. Like that's just like that's kind of the origin of how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was it was interesting to me because there was always like that time before, and we would go around and we would always like be lighthearted. But as soon as the routine started and some sort of adversity showed, like it all crumbled, and like you could see like the ugly half-face of like all like all of our insecurities like pouring out because like obviously like we were we were nervous about these things, we were working so hard, and it was just like we were all tired and like it for really, it was like it was the most frustrated I've ever been with anything, like ever. Like the the process of it. So it was like just having that. It's it's nice to have time like to yourself, like as a as a team, but it's also nice when someone can come in and just be like, hey, just just so you guys know, like it's much bigger than your insecurities. And like like it's like I don't know what it was specifically about that time because it was like it wasn't anything that hasn't been said before to us. It was like yeah, there was there was a little bit of like the you guys got this, like, you know, like don't listen to your mind, like just just trust your trust your teammates. And it was like that time it really felt like it clicked, and like we got off, and I I just like took a sigh, and I was like, Okay, like it's gonna happen, like whatever happens, happens, and like it's just gonna be so like there's no point in stressing about it. Like, just just focus on what you can focus on and like let the rest fall into place.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:26

And it's crazy too, because like that's like the biggest thing with coaching, as far as like I think why I've loved it so much more than being an athlete. I mean, I I I love being an athlete, don't get me wrong, but like I love coaching for the aspect of like it's a mental game because I I thought when I when I offered to coach and started coaching that it was going to be I was going to teach people how to do things. Dude, I don't do that at all. Like, I don't do that at all. Like you guys are all Division I college tree leaders. Like, I don't have anything to teach you guys. Like, I can I can throw in some ideas for you. Like, if you're throwing a stunt, I can throw up some ideas. I can help you a little bit more just because co-ed's a little bit different than everything else, because like just because like everybody's a little bit new to co-ed. Um, like there's always a little bit more to learn for co-ed, but like as far as like all girl and like and like pumbling and like all of all the other aspects, like you guys know what to do. Like you know how to do it. You've all done it a lot, probably more than me. Like, who am I to say how to do something? That's not that's not what my job is at a as a college coach. Like, do you think like do you think like the hitting coach for the tigers is like telling them how to hit a baseball? Yeah, like they would tell them to screw right off. Like, that's not how that works. But like, I can give you some ideas if you're struggling with something, but what I'm there to do is to guide you through that and like talk you through different. Um, like if you have a mental block, that's what I'm there for. If you need to work through a personal issue, I need to be there for you as a person to get you to do what the team needs. Like, that's what I'm there for. And I think that was actually much tougher with you, like being a guy, and like we have very similar personality types and like we respond to things very similar. So, like, I I know that like when I'm in that position, like I need to be left alone and like I just want to take my breath and like I know what I need, and it's usually not for some dude to come up to me and like talk to me about my feelings, yeah. You know, whereas like whereas like a lot of the girls, like they just need somebody there just to like listen to them and then they'll be fine. Like if somebody's struggling, like if somebody's having a bad day, like they just they just need you to give them a little side hug and like listen to them for a second, and then they'll go, they'll go through their full, you know? Yeah. So I think that was like the biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:06

Yeah, I think I think every every group deserves um especially at the higher levels, because like you said, for like most of like the lower levels, you know, you look at like like little league baseball, like they are teaching them how to play baseball. Yeah, but like at the higher level, it's so much more finite and so much more like arbitrary in terms of like what a coach does. And it's just I I think that everybody deserves to have like a mentor, whether that's like a parent or a coach, that doesn't try to necessarily obviously they need to learn things, but once the basics are learned, it's just more of like how can I help you to be able to perform at your best, not necessarily learn something that you already know how to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:00

Exactly, exactly. And then on top of that, too, like there's a million ways to skin a cat, and like there's a lot of right ways, there's there's some wrong ways, but like there's a lot of right ways to do a given skill in cheerleading. Like, who am I to say that this person can't do it this way? Like, there's no rules, like you can do however you want. Like, if this has traditionally worked for you, that's fine. But then again, if it's not working for you right now, like, hey, maybe try this, but you're not doing it wrong. You like you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:32

Yeah, that's that's kind of what I um I kind of apply that that knowledge in powerlifting too, because it's like you look at these top-level guys, and you'll see someone that's like just starting powerlifting in like their first year, and they're like, Okay, I'm gonna copy this guy's deadlift because he was a world champion in my weight class. And it was like, Okay, what about the dude that won it last year? Why is his form completely different than that? Like, why are you trying to just like find one successful person and like copy whatever they do when that's not what they did to become successful? Like, it just isn't practical.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:15

Like, even off that example, like like this sounds insane, dude, but like I literally can conventional deadlift more than consumo deadlift. Like, that's I know it's not normal, like yeah, most people wouldn't think that, but like the way my body is built for some reason, the way my muscles fire, like I can conventional deadlift more than I can sumo deadlift. Yeah, like people are people aren't built the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:35

Yeah, yeah. And it's just it's just I I think it just comes from like wanting to be really good at something. So obviously you want to copy what like the top-level guys are doing, but then it's like it's so arbitrary how you pick like the one that you're gonna follow because like they're all different. Like you could look at like a high school quarterback that wants to go to college and they're like, Okay, I copied Patrick Mahomes' throwing form, and it's like, but he wasn't even top three this past year, so why are you copying him? Like, you need to do what you can do, obviously take inspiration from the top of the guys, like they didn't just like you don't fall on the top of a mountain, but like there's steps that need to be taken to get to your version of success because it's uh that's ultimately not gonna look the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:27

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:29

Yeah, that's that's something that I that I had to learn in cheerleading is just like yes, obviously, like when you're starting to learn out like the mechanics are are pretty like set in stone. Like there's things that everybody does because we figured out that that's the easiest and most efficient way to do things, but then past that, like the top-level guys, like everybody throws stunts different, everybody like has different hand placements, different tape jobs, different like mentality going into stunts, and it's just like you you can't you can't just like draw this perfect picture of like what you want success to look like and just expect to be able to conform to that. Like you need to really like find it for yourself, and you need to suck a lot to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:11

Like you were like relatively like new to cheerleading still, so like I could still like I still had a few things to kind of like give critiques for you on, but then like Carson has been co-estumping for so long. Like, I I didn't feel like I ever gave her a correction just because it's like she she knows what she's doing wrong if she does something wrong. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, whereas like maybe a girl that this is her second year co-assumption, it's a little bit different, but like Carson was like one of the first girls that I ever stumped with. So, like, there's nothing I can tell her that I haven't already told her or like she doesn't already know.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:48

Um, and I feel like that's not necessarily like a that's not a disadvantage as a coach either. Like, I still I still know how to fire her up. Like, I can get her to do something just like by how I talk. Like, I know that. Like, I know and like that's I think that's a lot more beneficial than being like, hey, you need to squeeze here and not here. Like she knows that. Like, that's easy. She can she knows what muscles contract and when to contract them. But she, if she's scared of a basket toss, and and I tell her, yeah, if you were good, you'd probably do it, and like she goes and doesn't like yeah, like that, like that's that's a bigger success to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:25

Yeah, and that's then and that's an that's even another thing, too. It's like like when you're a coach, you also have to know that just as someone can't copy a version of success, a coach can't copy a version of one athlete and put it to another. Like we all like you touched on it earlier, how we all respond to um to like even talking differently. We all respond to critiques differently, and it's it's something it's a coach's job to be able to be personable and to know how each person responds the best to a critique or something like that. Because otherwise you just leave people feeling discouraged, then you're just like, Well, I told them what to do, so that like it's their problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:10

That that is like the hardest thing to do, especially for like the girls that I don't know on a personal level like that. Like, like Carson, I can talk trash to her, and like that'll get her to do something, but like other girls, like I don't know what they need. Like, they might need me to listen to listen to them about their grandma, that's sick. But they might like another girl might need me to like yell at her. Like, I don't like they like it's everybody needs different things to like motivate them. Yeah, um, and it's just like it's it's the hardest thing to figure out like what people need, and that's the that is like that's been the fun challenge of of being a coach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:54

That's cool. Um yeah, no. Um I I mean I I really enjoyed having, like I said, like someone like that around this year, and I think it it really helped me like be able to be more comfortable. Um I was in such a weird position, and I know you were in it too, but just like being the only guy, it's like yeah, you feel like you don't want to like take away from the coaches because the coaches are there to help the majority, but then it's like I I don't know where to go, so it was really tough, yeah, yeah. It's really tough, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:35

But um, no, I think especially like like my freshman year, I was the only guy, and there was no guy coaches either, so it was like it was like extra weird, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:44

But no, I think that I think that helped a lot, and I think cheer taught me a lot of just like don't expect to be bad at something because you've never done it. Um and then the other thing too is just like you need to be able to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and like it it really gave me so much more empowerment of like not caring what other people think about me. Because it's like I I tell people this often, it's like if you would have asked me like my senior year of high school, or not my senior year, like my freshman year of high school, like if I would join a college cheerleading team, I'd be like, no, but not because I don't think it'd be fun, because I would hate to think what people would think about me if I did it. And I was like so focused on my perception in other people's eyes, and then it really took something like cheerleading where it was like it's all out in the open to realize that that does not matter at all, and like you really just need to do what makes you happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:45

For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:48

Well, I appreciate you coming. Um I appreciate you having something else on, but um, no, this was good. I mean, I think we got uh we got almost two hours in.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:57

So I'll say we've been talking for a while now.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:00

Yeah. But no, um, is there anything else you wanna you want to leave with?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:06

No, man, I I think I think that's I think that's about it. I mean, like I was saying, like just I just want to leave this world a better place than when I came into it. So it's a long, long way to get there, but yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:18

It's the pursuit, it's the pursuit more than anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:21

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:22

Well, I appreciate you coming on. Um, we will uh keep in touch.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:26

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:27

All right, sounds good. I'll see you later, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:30

All right, we'll see you later.