Hope Comes to Visit
Hope Comes to Visit is a soulful podcast that holds space for real stories, honest conversations, and the kind of moments that remind us we’re never alone.
Hosted by author, speaker, and former TV journalist-turned-storyteller Danielle Elliott Smith, the show explores the full spectrum of the human experience — from the tender to the triumphant. Through powerful interviews and reflective storytelling, each episode offers light, connection, and presence for anyone navigating the in-between.
Whether you’re grieving, growing, beginning again, or simply craving something real, Hope Comes to Visit will meet you right where you are — with warmth, grace, and the quiet belief that even in the dark, transformation can take root.
New episodes drop every Monday and Friday, so you can begin and end your week with a little light, reflection, and hope.
Hope Comes to Visit
72 Hours, 86 Miles, and a Lifetime of Lessons with Ian Hawkins
What happens when you set out on an 86-mile journey with no athletic background, no clear “why,” and only three days to complete it?
For Ian Hawkins — Speaking and Storytelling Coach at Netflix — the answer was far more than sore feet.
In this conversation, Ian shares his whirlwind trek along the historic Pilgrim’s Way from London to Canterbury Cathedral — a pilgrimage that most take a week to complete, but he compressed into just 72 hours. Along the trail, blistered and battling rain, Ian unexpectedly found himself face-to-face with unprocessed grief over his father’s death and childhood trauma.
With nowhere to hide, the miles became a space for deep reckoning — and a powerful reminder that we each have the ability to become the author of our own story. Ian also unpacks his three-part storytelling framework — crisis, decision, and resolution — and how it applies to everything from personal healing to leading change in organizations.
Whether you’re navigating your own uncharted territory or curious about the intersection of story and transformation, Ian’s journey is proof that the path forward often begins with the courage to take the first step.
Connect with Ian on his website.
And on LinkedIn: Ian Hawkins.
Thank you for listening to Hope Comes to Visit. If this episode resonated with you, please follow, rate, and share the show — it helps others find their way to these conversations.
New episodes drop every Monday and Friday, so you can begin and end your week with a little light and a lot of hope.
For more stories, reflections, and ways to connect, visit www.DanielleElliottSmith.com or follow along on Instagram @daniellesmithtv and @HopeComestoVisit
I would look at a menu and I would literally go what do I actually fancy to eat now? Sticky toffee pudding with ice cream. I'll have that. That will be my main meal.
Speaker 2:So there was no part of you that treated this as a health journey. You were not thinking I just need food as medicine. It was. What does Ian want today?
Speaker 1:Danielle, have you any idea how many pubs there are between here and Canterbury?
Speaker 2:If you've been carrying something heavy, if you're looking for something light, you have come to the right place. I'm Danielle Elliott-Smith, and this is Hope Comes to Visit. Today's guest is a speaking and storytelling coach at Netflix. He once promised himself he would never be bored, and it's a promise he's kept. As a fledgling writer, he worked on flagship BBC comedy shows. As a filmmaker, he's dodged muggers in Panama and flown in helicopters over live volcanoes. As a business journalist, his work has appeared on CBS, bbc and Reuters. He's worked with some of the highest profile comedians, politicians and sports people on the planet. Not bad for a comprehensive schoolboy from Essex. I'd love to welcome Ian Hawkins. Let's take a quick moment to thank the people that support and sponsor the podcast. When life takes an unexpected turn, you deserve someone who will stand beside you. St Louis attorney Chris Dulley offers experienced one-on-one legal defense. Call 314-384-4000 or 314-DUI-HELP or you can visit DulleyLawFirmcom that's D-U-L-L-E-LawFirmcom for a free consultation. Ian, thank you so much for being here with me danielle.
Speaker 1:It's so lovely thousands of miles apart, and yet we're able to communicate through the magic of of technology.
Speaker 2:This is what it's for it really is, and this is one of the things that delights me about being able to do this being able to bring you from way over there to people everywhere and being able to share pieces of your story and sprinkling hope in little bits and pieces all over the world. I am delighted you're here when I first heard about your story. So we're going to get into what you do in a little bit, but I want to talk about the hope in your story that that inspired me. So there is this walk that you did recently, pilgrims way yes, Is that?
Speaker 2:correct yeah, one, yeah okay, so you did this extensive walk and I want you to explain it to our listeners, but one of the things that was so interesting to me about the fact that you did this long walk, and in a much shorter time than many people do, it was because, when you initially set out on this track, you did not know why you were doing it.
Speaker 1:This is the thing I thought I've got everything I need for this. I've got my bag, I've got my shoes, I've got my tent, I've got everything I need. And the question people kept asking me was so why are you doing it? And I didn't have a good. Why I didn't have a good? Why Never mind the Simon Sinek, first find your why I was walking off on that first morning thinking that's a very good question. Why on earth am I putting myself through this? And let me quickly explain to your, your listener, who, if your listener cannot see me, and I should explain. I am not a great rippling muscular specimen of a human being. I am, I'm sure, so you're not.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't consider yourself a a super athlete. This is not something you do.
Speaker 1:You don't often train for far from it okay so I I occasionally managed to do a quick 5k around the park which is far better than I.
Speaker 2:I will tell you that this past weekend I sent my fiance a picture after I did a hike and he said you look like an athlete. And I immediately sent it to the rest of my family and I said did you hear that? I?
Speaker 1:just explain it. It's if you know.
Speaker 2:Geoffrey Chaucer.
Speaker 1:The Canterbury Tales, which is this 600 year old book and it is a story of a group of pilgrims who set out from Southwark Cathedral and they go on the road to Canterbury Cathedral, which is 86 miles away, and of course, in those days you traveled on foot, you traveled with a couple of horses and you were in no particular rush to reach your destination. These days I have commitments. I went through my diary. Part of the reason for doing it was I went, I'll do it, and of course, I'm self-employed, I run my own business. I can take time anytime I want. I can take time any time I want. I go through the diary going well, I can't do that weekend, I can't do that weekend, I can't do that weekend, and I certainly can't take the six or seven days that the guidebook says I should do it in. And eventually I landed on saying well, if I take off Thursday and Friday, I can arrive on Sunday and I'll squeeze it into four days and, as it turned out, I squeezed it into 72 hours.
Speaker 2:Now this is something that people typically do in a week, right yeah. And so tell me, when you first see Pilgrim's Way, what makes you say, well, wait a second, that's something I want to do. So what had you, even looking at your diary to begin with, to say this is something I want to do? Do you just occasionally get an itch to do something that somebody says is hard to do?
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes I do think. Yes, there is the call of the open road. I'm a bit like you, danielle, which is I love to travel, I love to get out and see the world and see what's going on. There's a big piece of graffiti. I live in London, right, and there's a big piece of graffiti near me that says do something difficult. I thought, actually, if you're going to put a message into somebody's brain, that's pretty good.
Speaker 1:And then I started talking to some friends of mine who'd done the Camino. And suddenly that's a pilgrim's way. That's in Spain, northern Spain. Everyone I know seemed to have done it or was going on it or knew someone that had done it. And I thought why would I go to Spain to do this? I live near Southern Cathedral. My brother lives near Canterbury Cathedral. Why go all the way to Spain when I can just do the Camino around the corner? And that's where the idea started taking hold. I thought, well, yeah, okay, let's do it. I don't even need to get on a bus to start this. I can start from my front door and I can walk up to look. If I say the name of these English places, you mustn't laugh at them, okay.
Speaker 2:I will not laugh. First of all, I think I told you as soon as we got on I've always loved accents anyway, and there's something musical about your accent. So I'm listening to you and I'm closing my eyes and I'm just listening. So I can't wait to hear the names. So go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'll take that. I'll take that. So I left and I thought I'm having breakfast with some friends at a place called Elephant and Castle really.
Speaker 1:Okay, put it in Google Maps. Now it exists. And I thought I'll go after breakfast. So we get together, we have breakfast, they all say so why are you doing this again? Why have you brought your tent? Why have you brought your backpack? I don't know why I'm doing it. And then, at 9 am, I set out and I started walking right on the Pilgrim's Way where the Elephant and Castle joins up, and I didn't stop until I reached Canterbury Cathedral 72 hours later on the Sunday morning. It was 71 and a half hours. All right, impressive.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about this particular journey. So, number one how connected did you stay while you were on this journey? Did you allow yourself to be fully present and and listen to yourself while you were there, or did you find yourself needing to be distracted? Right, because you you mentioned, we're so busy. You're trying to put this within your calendar. Within this, I only have this, this finite period of time to get this done. It should be done in a week. I should be able to mosey along, right, we think about, about, about how long it used to take, right, and I should be moseying. I'm not moseying because I'm busy. I've got stuff to do. Did you allow yourself to slow to a pace where you could listen to your own thoughts?
Speaker 1:I did. And I hit on a compromise with this, because I do have a partner, I do have a mom and I thought I can't just disappear for four days and then pop up. And and I thought I can't just disappear for four days and then pop up and knock on my brother's front door. So what I did was I created a WhatsApp group and I said anybody that wants to follow me, I will be on the WhatsApp group and I will drop the occasional pin if I stop for something to eat or if I stop for the night, because I did wild camping.
Speaker 1:On the first night I stayed in a monastery. On the second night I stayed. Bizarrely, I got invited to stay in a church. On the third night I stayed in a monastery. On the second night I stayed. Bizarrely, I got invited to stay in a church on the third night. That was not planned, but I would drop a pin when I stopped for a meal or for something so that anybody that wanted to join that WhatsApp group could come in. And I said at the top I said you're welcome to follow me on the adventure and I'll send you the occasional pic and I'll send you the occasional update, but do not expect me to respond to stuff. The point of this is to get away from it all All right.
Speaker 2:So you're not. I'm not having conversation, I'm not chatting and giving people updates. I'm not answering questions. I'm just giving the occasional update on this particular adventure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was quite nice. I think I had about 20 friends and family at the end who joined me on that and it was quite nice at the end of the day to sit there in a pub with my diet completely changed. I would look at a menu and I would literally go what do I actually fancy to eat now? Sticky toffee pudding with ice cream. I'll have that. That will be my main meal.
Speaker 2:So there was no part of you that treated this as a health journey. You were not thinking I just need food as medicine. It was. What does Ian want today?
Speaker 1:Danielle, have you any idea how many pubs there are between here and Canterbury?
Speaker 2:I can't even begin to fathom.
Speaker 1:So yeah, as I was walking through the countryside and of course, every village has a pub or at least one pub, every village has a little shop or village has a pub or at least one pub, every village has a little shop or it has a cricket pitch, and I would sit there and I would go on and I'd drop a pin, I'd show them a picture of what I was having for food and I and people would say, oh, you know, you've done really good mileage today, or you know, keep going, and that kind of thing. And that was enough of a enough of a footstep in into being sociable, without it taking away from what I was doing, which is going into myself and thinking about uh think, do all do all the deep work that we never have a chance to, to sit back and listen to.
Speaker 2:So the deep work is is the next question, because so you mentioned the, the quote do something difficult. One of my favorite quotes is do something every day that scares you, and that's elizabeth roosevelt. Uh, and so I actually have that on my refrigerator to remind me that I do need to challenge myself. And when you and I were initially communicating, you mentioned that you didn't realize it because you didn't really know your why for doing this beyond doing something difficult. Right, but you found yourself facing some past trauma and you were unaware that taking this quiet time for yourself was going to allow you to face some difficult things from your past. Will you talk about that?
Speaker 1:Sure, so I have been walking. So the first day I did about 67,000 steps I don't know if you have a stepometer on your wrist. Yes, it's quite a lot. So I woke up the next day and my feet were really sore, my hips were sore, my legs were sore, I'll bet and I started walking about 4.30 on the morning of the next day and my feet were really sore, my hips were sore, my legs were sore, uh, and I started walking about 4 30 on the morning of the second day and I promised my mum one thing, which was that I would not take any risks with the heat. And of course, this happened at the beginning of July. So, uh, you know, about a month ago, and we had a heat wave, which is not something the British people deal with particularly well, are used to. And I realised I got to this village and I realised that if I I had to be at the monastery by four o'clock in the afternoon because they closed the doors at four o'clock.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I thought it's 11 o'clock now. It's really hot. I've run out of water, yeah, and it's about a five mile, so it's about a five hour walk away. If I really push myself, if I really push myself, I can do it, but it is hot. And we also had a guy over here called Michael Mosley, who is a very well liked TV presenter and doctor, and he died of heat stroke when he was on holiday TV presenter and doctor and he died of heat stroke when he was on holiday. So that's quite a big thing and it certainly put me in mind of you know do scary things, but don't take daft risks.
Speaker 1:And I did say OK, look, it's too hot, I'm cutting it too.
Speaker 1:Fine, I will take the train, literally two stops on the train, so I can get there on time and make sure that I I can get into the, into the um, into the monastery for the night okay the next day I woke up and I and it was, it was raining and everything still hurt, and I thought I'm gonna phone my brother and just see if I can get on the next train and go and see my brother a day early and cut this short. And I got my map out and I looked at my map and I saw the whole of the road in front of me and I was halfway through this trip and I thought well, come on, this is this is all or nothing fantasy at work. Here. You've taken five percent of your journey on a train. Are you really going to throw away 50% of success for 5% of failure jumping on a train?
Speaker 1:And then it came to me exactly why I had done this. The reason why I did this was because in everything you do, there is always somebody saying you can't do that or don't do do that or don't do this, or don't do that, or telling you what you should and shouldn't do. And the only reason why I was on that walk was because I wanted to be there and the only person that could stop me was me, and that was the moment when I went. But also the only person that can keep me going is me. So I actually have to make a really clear choice Do I keep going or do I stop?
Speaker 1:And at that point the pain became irrelevant, the aches became irrelevant, the rain became irrelevant, and it was just like oh well, you're wet, yeah I will be, because it's raining. Your feet hurt? Yeah I would. That's because I've done 100,000 steps in the last 24 hours and none of it mattered. All that mattered was that I said I was going to do it and therefore I will do it. And it's one foot in front of the other, until I bumped my fist on the side of Canterbury Cathedral and it was shall I do it, shall I not do it? And then it wasn't even a question, it was an was shall I do it, shall I not do it? And then it wasn't even a question, it was about, it was an inevitability.
Speaker 2:What I love about what you just defined is that you me, everyone listening we are the only ones who get to specifically say for us, specifically define for ourselves what success or failure looks like. It's not the outside world that says, well, because you did 5% on the train, it wasn't really a walk right, you didn't really do it. You get to do it, you do it your version. And I think that and I think this relates to the way I, I people, in terms of of how they approach sobriety Right and I know that recovery has been a piece of your journey as well that people pile shame on themselves or they allow someone else to define for them what success or failure looks like. You could have said, well, I mean, I did 5% on the train, so I guess I might as well give up, and instead you said, no, I had to, I had to deviate slightly from my original plan, but no, I'm going to keep going and I'm going to make this the way I want it to be. Yeah, and I love that.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I mean sobriety. I've been sober now for 10, over 10 years, coming out to 11 years Congratulations. With the possible exceptions of two accidental liqueur chocolates and my mother's Madeira trifle, I thought, jesus Mother, you have to put the whole bottle in. This is deadly. But see, I'm not a fan of AA. I've been to one AA meeting and I didn't enjoy it and I said well because I don't, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:And that's okay, because I don't like the idea that if you accidentally have a glass of wine, you're suddenly resetting the clock and you're back to zero, exactly, and that's part of what I'm, part of what I say, right, and that's I want people to know that, however you define, however you choose to pursue your own version of recovery, that's OK. Pursue your own version of recovery, that's okay. I don't like the aspect of shame that comes in when anyone is pursuing recovery. I really struggled when I would hear someone say well, my sponsor told me that I relapsed. Therefore, I have to walk into a meeting and tell everyone tomorrow morning and I know that that's not definitive for everyone. I know that it that's been someone's experience, and so for me.
Speaker 2:I initially went to AA and had great experiences and then I didn't. So I want people to know if AA works for you, fantastic, use it, enjoy it, embrace it. And the same thing for Narcotics, anonymous or whatever. Whatever works for you, use it. But I like the idea of being able to define your version of success in whatever you decide to do, whether it's walking Pilgrim's Way or pursuing recovery, or whatever path you're taking in your life, whatever journey you're on.
Speaker 1:I think if you want to achieve something hard or something difficult, something that seems like a long way away and along 86 miles of road let's use this as a metaphor along 86 miles of road you're not going to travel each one of those miles beautifully and perfectly, with excellent poise and looking your best. What matters, I think, is how you deal with the setbacks and how you deal with the little failures, and we know this. We know that the diet is not ruined when you have one cookie. The diet is ruined when you have the one cookie and go well, that's it, the diet's over. I've finished the whole pack. Yeah, if you are a 20-cigarette-a day smoker and after a week of non-smoking you crack and have one, well then, congratulations, you're a one cigarette a week smoker. Now the mistake is when you go back to 20 cigarettes in a in a day.
Speaker 1:Right and you give up yeah, and when you, when you give up, giving up and you've, I always say, if you're have a, what you do is you have that biscuit, you have that guilty biscuit. Okay, you go hum, hum, hum, hum, hum and then, like Cookie Monster, you shove your face into the biscuit and I say, no, you're going to have to have another biscuit, but it's going to be the perfect biscuit, you're going to have it. So cookie got to remember we're in America now. You have a cookie.
Speaker 2:You put it on a plate with a doily, a knife and fork.
Speaker 1:You put on a tie. You'd like a candle. You eat that cookie. You know, piece by piece, you enjoy it same with a cigarette you have you. You get up the nicest crystal ashtray, you sit there, you enjoy that cigarette. You. If I'm only having one cigarette a week, my god, I'm gonna enjoy it. Let every, every molecule of nicotine flicker across your synapses and then put it out and enjoy that cigarette so much you won't need another one for another week and become a one a week smoker you mentioned that in going on this, you found yourself looking at past life experiences heart surgery you had had as a child and then recently, more recent, loss of your dad trauma does not understand time, and it is a feature of trauma that, once you've gone through it, it can be very present.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that you find is, when you are by yourself and you give yourself the time and the space to process things, that you do have a chance to come face to face with some of the things that you would normally block out, whether that is with going to see friends, having a, doing you know distraction techniques.
Speaker 1:When there are no distractions left, you have to come face to face with everything, and I realized that one of the things that I believe is really important is that we all need to understand how our stories work and stories happen in a very particular way, and if your story is unfinished or is unstructured, then it's really difficult to to process everything.
Speaker 1:And I don't think of it in terms of getting over stuff, because you don't get over stuff, but what you do is you learn to live effectively with, with the scars and the and the bumps and the dings. So for me, a story is a distillation of data. We live in big, complicated worlds and a story is a distillation of data such that you have a crisis, you make a decision in response to that and you resolve that crisis. And if you don't make a decision in the middle, if you don't have the chance to make that decision, it's not a story, it's just stuff that happens to you, and a lot of trauma is stuff that happens to you. You're stuck in the crisis and you have to be quite explicit and say what decision am I going to make about it? Because very often you are responding to it, not making a decision around it. And once you start moving into a decision and you start coming to a resolution, you then turn the whole experience into a story that you can own and you say well, that's mine.
Speaker 2:So storytelling is something that you and I have in common in terms of our passion about it, our love of of hearing stories, of telling stories. I like the way you just described sort of getting caught in the middle. There, If you were sitting and talking to someone and you recognize that they are caught in the middle and they are not yet owning their story, what do you say to them to encourage them to grab the pen again to say all right, you're not, you are in the middle of this, you are letting someone else author this. You have not yet said wait, a second, pen and paper mine, pen mine. How do you encourage them to re-embrace that and write their own?
Speaker 1:It's good, old-fashioned stoicism, I think. I think we can't choose our circumstances, because stuff will always happen okay, but we can choose how. Can't choose our circumstances, because stuff will always happen okay, but we can choose how we react to it, and that that's what I would say to anybody. I'm not a therapist, I'm a storyteller, and but I do think that stories have a power that goes sometimes beyond anything else. We, we completely understand stories, the software that our brains run on. Nobody ever changes their beliefs based on data. We change our beliefs, if at all, only through stories and storytelling.
Speaker 1:Whether it is people tell themselves the stories I'm a drinker, I'm a smoker, I'm a fat bloke and I'm bad at sport. Well then, suddenly they have to quit drinking, quit smoking, and they take up the gym and they go. Oh, my news story is that I'm a non-smoker and a non-drinker. My news story is I'm actually quite good at sport, it turns out, and if you have the old narratives, that can hold you back from fully achieving stuff, so I'm not sure that I would do anything beyond say to somebody define the crisis that is in front of you, tell me what has happened. You have no control over that, but what can you control and what decisions are you going to make in the face of that crisis?
Speaker 2:What chapter did the Pilgrim's Way walk add to your story?
Speaker 1:After, did the Pilgrim's Way walk add to your story? I think it's probably a real inflection point. It was the moment where I have been able to stop and look back and for a couple of years now I've been trying to write my memoir and I haven't quite had the framework to hang it on. Because where do you go If you've been self-employed? You've done contract work all your life, like I have? You go oh, I did this, then I did that, and you look at all the different stories and you go do you know what? This is? Just stuff that happened. How do I find the thread?
Speaker 1:that takes it all through. And doing the walk, I came back and I thought that I've easily got 80,000 words so I can sit down and write about my life and this walk and how the two things mesh together. So on one day I would be walking along and thinking about where I grew up and the school I grew up in, the teachers I grew up with. At other times I'd be thinking about my friends and all these things seem to tie together in these interesting ways. You know, I'd be sitting in a pub having something to eat and I'd go goodness, there was a time when I couldn't walk into a pub and come out of a vertical. You know I I would have to drink absolutely everything in there.
Speaker 1:And how interesting I'm now absolutely fine about going into a pub and not having an alcoholic drink and and that sort of spurred on all these thoughts about around drinking and why I drank. And so I found that the story you know, full as it as it was of of hardship and and interesting meetings with exciting people and loneliness and connection and all kinds of other things, had these resonances across all kinds of different parts of my life, and also because of my my dad. My dad used to be a Boy Scout and loved the countryside, loved the outdoors, and I thought, god, it would be lovely if he were here to do some of this. And of course in a sort of sense he sort of was, because it was his sense of adventure that sort of carried me along quite often, and he died very suddenly, and so I thought about him an awful lot and I thought how nice it would be to sort of have him. He'd have loved this. He'd have found the fact I was in so much pain absolutely hysterical.
Speaker 2:He would have given you a hard time about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, He'd have got a feel of that. Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2:Ian, how do you define hope?
Speaker 1:How do I define hope? I think it is a trust in the fundamental goodness of people. Deep down, I think most people are, given the choice, given the right circumstances, will do the right thing. And I know that sounds a bit twee and I know that sometimes you look around the world and think really it doesn't look like it sometimes, but I genuinely think people are motivated for good reasons and it is the story that people tell themselves. Nobody fools themselves as well as they fool themselves. But I think hope is fundamentally that if people understand each other, they do do the right thing for each other.
Speaker 2:I love that and I agree, which is why I do this podcast, this podcast right. I? I think that in this day and age, we are inundated with a lot of negative we we tend to see a lot of the other side and I'm hoping, hoping to remind people that compassion and empathy and and hope absolutely, absolutely do exist and we don't necessarily have to look very hard because it it shows up in so many different forms. My, my hope, again, is that the stories that that we share on the podcast are are ones that can meet people where they are, and and I I love the simplicity of what you've experienced doing something difficult. Why do you think it's important to encourage people to do hard things?
Speaker 1:It's good for your character, because nobody thrives when they're in their comfort zone. I tell you, I did some stand-up in that in um, in new york, and this is this is to your point about meeting people where they are. And before I went on, I said to one of the other comedians I said what, what should I do before? Is there anything I need to know about a new york comedy audience? And he just went slow down, you talk real fast, you've got a funny accent. Slow right down. So I went okay, fine, fair enough, I I start speaking very slowly. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1:Of course it completely threw off all my timing and all of these jokes which I had a sort of muscle memory for. Suddenly I had to start thinking about the words that were coming out of my mouth and I was thinking is this funny? The audience was sitting there going this goes, that what's happening here, and a couple of minutes is everything all right, and a couple of minutes tick by and no laughter is coming. And I went okay, well, the trick of stand-up is to lead people to a laugh. It's not to whatever you think a joke is. It's actually about leadership. You're, you're a leader. You're standing on that stage. You've got the spotlight, you've got the microphone, you're going to lead people to laugh. And I thought I'm not leading people anywhere, I'm confusing them and I'm scaring them, so so I'm sorry, I was told slow, funny accent slow, slow person, funny accent.
Speaker 1:but if this, if this is funny, why aren't you laughing? And there's a couple thank God, there was this couple on the front row and I thought I'm going to stop doing jokes, I'm going to go and meet this audience and see where they are. And I leaned over and she was amazingly good looking and she was dressed to the nines and she looked fabulous and he looked like he'd spent the afternoon doing. She was amazingly good looking and she was dressed to the nines and she looked fabulous and he looked like he'd spent the afternoon doing yard work and had not got changed. And so we did this whole thing where I said you know, your lady is absolutely gorgeous. You are going to have to raise your game. And as a group, we all got him to decide what he was going to wear next time.
Speaker 1:He took his girlfriend out for a, a date, and it became very sort of friendly. It wasn't too catty, I think, and it was about. It was about making sure that you know, we were complimenting his girlfriend and we were just saying you know, you're a nice looking fella, but you need to raise your game and and match her style and energy. Meet her where she is. Yeah, meet her where she is. Yeah, meet her where she is. And then by that time they sort of trusted me and it was always good and they knew that they weren't going to be picked on or there was nothing mean was going to happen, and it was going to be cheeky and it was going to be friendly. And then I went back into material and then they started laughing.
Speaker 1:But they understood you a little bit yeah they clicked into my voice and it was one of those things where you just go right, I'm in charge of this room. They're not having a good time. They've paid good money to come in here. What can I do? And doing what I've done a thousand times before isn't going to work. What will work?
Speaker 2:How can I make this important to these people in this room?
Speaker 1:As a self-made self-employed individual.
Speaker 2:you've worn many hats and I'm familiar with that. Which of those has been your favorite and or the most challenging, the one that felt most difficult? I mean you say stand-up comedian, and of everything you listed, that's probably the one that makes me sweat the most. I have no problem speaking in public. I occasionally will make someone laugh, but it's just because I'm just talking. But if I intentionally was required to make people laugh, that would give me anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a weird one. The expectation is what gets you all the time, and I always think that if you say to somebody I am funny, they will find you funny, and if you say do you think this is funny, they'll sit back and think about it, because it is not about engaging on that level. Comedy is always about status. It's always about high status plays and that's why hecklers never work out. How can a heckler ever win? You can't, because you've got no mic, you've got no light, nobody's paid to come and see a heckler.
Speaker 2:You've got no mic, you've got no light, nobody's paid to come and see a heckler, whereas the other 200 people in the room have all paid good money to see the guy with the microphone in the spotlight and the script. I have been told many, many times that I mean I'm I'm divorced. But my ex-husband is a very good friend of mine and he always said he was the funniest person in the family and my, my eldest daughter she's 21. Said he was the funniest person in the family and my, my eldest daughter, she's 21. She has now taken over that that title, and I have many times been told I am the fourth funniest person in that quartet and I like to think I'm a little funnier than that. But you know. But my daughter is extremely, extremely funny and being told she's funny is the highest compliment you can pay her.
Speaker 2:So, I know that she very much. But going back to the question I asked, the hats you've worn, which has been the most challenging and which has been the most rewarding.
Speaker 1:I think the most challenging was when I started doing keynote speaking, so I want to talk to groups of people about how to be a better communicator and about why being a better communicator, a better storyteller, is so important and it's enjoyable because, it is difficult.
Speaker 1:It is difficult because it is holding the attention of a room for an hour. It is a challenge. It's further challenging because I'm used to going out and getting laughs, and when you're talking to a room full of people who are there for a conference, you need to give them good value. And so, rather than thinking, why is this, but can I make this audience laugh four times a minute, you're thinking can I deliver four useful bits of information every minute? How is this next line earning its place? How's this next anecdote, how's this next story earning its place in this hour? How do you keep the energy up through that? Because if you're not getting laughs, I get energy back from the laughter, and if you're not getting the laughs, what happens to that energy? So it's quite tiring being up there and I I enjoy it.
Speaker 1:I find it a huge challenge, but I also find it massively rewarding because I know that by the time I sit down, everybody in that room should have at least three things that they can take away that will make them a better communicator, if not more.
Speaker 1:I mean, if it's three as a minimum, then hurray and hurrah, but if it's, if they've sat there and gone, actually, how are we telling our story? Where are we going wrong? And storytelling again is is every business is going through this thing with AI at the moment, where they're having to transform and change and do all kinds of new things. And change is the most difficult, expensive thing that any business can do, because you're having to drag people behind you and you're having to try and make the changes stick and it takes time and money and effort and everybody pulling in the same direction and sometimes nobody's pulling in the same direction and stories. I think getting the story right is the cheapest, fastest way of getting change that lasts, because if you don't have the story behind why the change needs to happen, it will never work. People aren't willing to do it. No, no, because if you don't have the story, behind why the change needs to happen.
Speaker 2:It will never work.
Speaker 1:People aren't willing to do it. No, no, and it comes up again to that idea. You have a crisis, you have a decision in the middle what are you going to do with that crisis? And then you have a resolution at the end. And if the people you're working with, if you're sitting there going, we need to change, we need to use a generative AI in our marketing department and if everybody in your business says, yeah, but at the end of the day we do this or we've ended up like that, you know they're in a resolution, they're not in a crisis, they're in a resolution. And if you're in a resolution, you're at the end of your story. Chapter closed. End of the book.
Speaker 1:People cannot change when they are in a state of resolution. You have to push them into crisis so they can decide how they're going to react to it, and that's the only way change ever happens. If you were an alcoholic, you sit there, you go, I'm a drunk, I'm a drunk, and that will never change. It's only when you say I need to do something about this. Right, when you look in the mirror and say this is I'd like to change my own story.
Speaker 2:I'm exhausted by being me. Ian, I'm so delighted that you've spent time with me today. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1:You can find me at my website, which is mr-hawkinscom, or I am on LinkedIn. I'm all over LinkedIn, like a cheap raincoat in a thunderstorm. Danielle, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you today.
Speaker 2:Likewise, do you have any final words for everyone on doing hard?
Speaker 1:things or hope. Do you know what? I'm going to say this? Because I've been doing some conferences and working with AI people for the last couple of weeks and they kept saying to me the most important thing a company can own is its data. The most valuable thing a company can own is its data, and because I am contrary Danielle, I thought there's got to be something else. I realized the most important and valuable thing that a company can own is its story and its narrative, and that, I think, is the most important thing that any a company can own is its story and its narrative, and that, I think, is the most important thing that any human being can own is to know who you are I so love that you said that as you were, I was trying to trying to get that to you psychically.
Speaker 2:I was hoping that was what you were going to say. Please tell me me story. Please tell me story story and heart and hope, and it has been wonderful having you here today. Thank you for taking time. Thank you for coming across the world and spending this last 45 minutes with me and with our listeners. You are a a gift.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much danielle, next time you're in london, hit me up. We'll take the uber boat up the river and we'll go and have a fancy pants coffee somewhere. Smart and smart and sprawnsy I.
Speaker 2:I would love that, or we can, we can hit the pub and and show them what non-alcoholics do is this your idea of fun?
Speaker 1:Believe it or not? Yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you again, and thank you, friends, for spending this time with us and and listening to and owning your story. If this has resonated with you, I so hope you will turn around and share it with the people you love. Thank you again for being here. Don't forget to subscribe and we will most definitely see you back here next time. Until then, take good care of you. Naturally, it's important to thank the people who support and sponsor the podcast. This episode is supported by Chris Dulley, a trusted criminal defense attorney and friend of mine here in St Louis, who believes in second chances and solid representation. Whether you're facing a DWI, felony or traffic issue, chris handles your case personally with clarity, compassion and over 15 years of experience. When things feel uncertain, it helps to have someone steady in your corner. Call 314-384-4000 or 314-DUI-HELP, or you can visit dullylawfirmcom to schedule your free consultation.