S2 EP 14 Choosing Yourself: Deborah Santana on Identity, Freedom, and Loving the Fire (Ep 57)

There are moments in life when choosing yourself can be one of the most courageous things you can do.

In this deeply moving episode of Hope Comes to Visit, I was privileged to sit down with Deborah Santana—author, activist, and voice for women’s empowerment—to explore what it means to step out of the shadows and fully into your own life.

Through her new memoir Loving the Fire: Choosing Me, Finding Freedom, Deborah shares her journey of transformation after decades of partnership, public life, and self-evolution. Together, they talk about identity, grief, growth, and the quiet courage it takes to ask: What is out of alignment—and what am I ready to change?

This conversation is for anyone standing at a crossroads, navigating loss, or wondering what it might look like to truly choose themselves.

💙 You’re not alone. I'm so glad you are here.

Connect with Deborah Santana on her Website.

Order her book - Loving the Fire: Choosing Me, Finding Freedom.

In case you'd like to jump to some of the highlights:

CHAPTER MARKERS 

00:00 — Choosing yourself + episode introduction
01:15 — Deborah Santana’s work and new memoir Loving the Fire
02:00 — Living in someone else’s story vs. becoming yourself
03:00 — Evolution, identity, and stepping out of the shadow
04:45 — Feeling unseen + recognizing your value
05:55 — The decision to leave + choosing yourself
06:25 — Fear, courage, and asking what’s out of alignment
08:45 — “Little deaths” and navigating life transitions
10:30 — Grief, silence, and finding light
11:30 — Activism and the Do a Little Foundation
13:45 — Ancestry, identity, and passing belief to the next generation
17:00 — Raising curious, open-minded children
18:15 — Standing fully on your own + freedom
19:40 — Letting go of the past + living in the present
20:30 — Compassion, judgment, and “being the rainbow”
21:50 — Family, support, and generational impact
22:15 — Defining hope
23:00 — Who this book is for
24:15 — Growth, reflection, and taking ownership of your life
25:10 — “Shed the old, walk through the fire…”
25:30 — What’s next + where to find Deborah
26:30 — Closing

Thank you for listening to Hope Comes to Visit. If this conversation helps, follow the show, share it with someone who needs hope today, and leave a review - it helps others find their way to these conversations.

New episodes drop every Monday, so you can begin your week with a little light and a lot of hope.

For more stories, reflections, and ways to connect, visit www.DanielleElliottSmith.com or follow along on Instagram @daniellesmithtv and @HopeComestoVisit

Transcript

Choosing Yourself Opens The Story

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I would rather be alone than continue to diminish my spirit.

Welcome And Deborah Santana Introduction

Danielle Elliott Smith 0:13

Let's take a quick moment to thank the people that support and sponsor the podcast. When life takes an unexpected turn, you deserve someone who will stand beside you. St. Louis attorney Chris Duly offers experienced one-on-one legal defense. Call 314-384-4000 or 314-DUI Help. Or you can visit Dulilawfirm.com. That's D-U-L-L-E Law Firm.com for a free consultation. There are moments in life when choosing yourself can be one of the most courageous things you can do. Welcome to Hope Comes to Visit, the space where we honor the stories that shape us and the light that continues to break through. I'm Danielle Elliott Smith, and I'm so grateful you're here. Today I'm joined by Deborah Santana, author, activist, and deeply intentional voice for women, for peace, and for social justice. Through her work with her nonprofit Do a Little, her writing, and her advocacy, Deborah has spent years creating pathways for women and girls to access education, healing, and opportunity. She's the author of the memoir The Space Between the Stars, and now her newest book, Loving the Fire, Choosing Me, Finding Freedom, invites us into a deeply personal chapter of her life, one of transformation, reclamation, and choosing herself after decades of partnership, motherhood, and public life. It's a story that resonates with anyone standing at a crossroads, wondering what it might look like to fully step into who they are becoming. Deborah, it's truly an honor to have you sitting here with me today. Thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Thank you, Danielle. I am wonderful. Thank you.

Danielle Elliott Smith 1:56

I am so excited to have this conversation for so many reasons, but primarily because I believe your story, your writing, the work that you do makes other people feel seen. And I think it is a universal experience we need more of.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Thank you. Well, one of the things I love to do is be in community with everyone. And I don't want to be in the center, I want to be in a circle. And I really welcome people reading my words and seeing how it touches their hearts and their lives.

Danielle Elliott Smith 2:42

It's as I'm reading your words, one of the things that that hit me is I found myself nodding along. I told you that before before we jumped on. It wasn't the exact words you said, but it was a feeling that I had. So I mentioned that I'm divorced. And while I'm good friends with my ex-husband, there were so many moments in that previous version of me that I felt as though I was playing a starring role in his movie. And that is the feeling that I had reading portions of your version of who you were as someone's wife, as compared to as Deborah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

And the most important part of myself I wanted to show was my evolution. I mean, we all start out as one person or with many identities, whatever they may be. And if we're blessed and lucky, we continue to grow and we we forage through the forest of life, we forage through the garden and we find the bulbs and the roots and the plants that will enhance who we are so we can continue to grow. And I was told many times that my first memoir, Space Between the Stars, was really a book about other people, even though I thought at the time it was about me. So I was very intentional with Loving the Fire to tell my life now. And of course, I had to backdraft because I was still married when Space Between the Stars ended. But even in that backdraft, I tried to make it brief. I tried to explain what encouraged me to move on with my life. And then I just tried to write about what I'm doing now and how happy I am and what I've found and what I'm serving and who I love. So you're right. It's it's going from a place of being enmeshed in someone else's life to being free in your own.

Danielle Elliott Smith 5:12

How does that feel? Versus how you felt before. Do you think that there was an in-between time when you didn't know that you weren't fully inhabiting yourself?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I think I always was inhabiting myself. I have spent all of my adult life meditating and being educated. I mean, I didn't get my master's until I was 57. So I've continued to grow and inhabit myself. But there were layers of what I guess I would call acquiescence to someone else's dream that I'm not a hardline person. So I think I never would have been able to say, oh gosh, enough of you. What about me? I think it was really, I just kept feeling less and less seen in my world. And I knew my value. I knew what I wanted to do in life to help others and to help other women and girls, especially, but I wasn't able to really flourish in that because every time people looked at me, they saw my other half. And so I wasn't really able to live the life that I really think God wants me to live until I chose to leave that shadow.

Danielle Elliott Smith 6:35

What was that process like for you? Leaving that shadow.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Oh, it was wonderful. I mean, it was painful at the time, of course, but I knew I had to do it. And I had to be really strong and know that this is something that I have to do, even though I can't see the light at the end of this tunnel. I know it's there. And I would rather be alone than continue to diminish my spirit.

Danielle Elliott Smith 7:04

What would you say to someone who is in that place right now where they're thinking, I'm not shining the way I should be? I I can recognize that I am making myself smaller to make someone else bigger. And that wasn't my plan. I didn't, I didn't try to. It just sort of happened. But I recognize that I would rather move out of this relationship, move into a place, do the hard things, be alone, and do the work on myself. But I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yes, I think that it does take a reckoning with one's own soul. And if one is feeling that, I have at the end of Loving the Fire, I have two pages about how to walk through the fire. And so those pages talk about first you have to sit in silence. You have to sit with yourself and ask yourself, what is out of alignment in my life? Why do I not feel whole? Where do I feel diminished? And you have to really live with that, feel it. And the next thing is to ask who is adding value to my life? Who is loving me to be myself and who isn't? And I always say, move away from the people who aren't asking you to be who you are and aren't loving that. You know, it's so important to love people where they are. And it's also important to love people into who they can become. So I have a whole series of pages at the end of Loving the Fire to help with that. And I think the most important thing is to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. And this is something I didn't do until I was on my own. Louise Hay has a beautiful book called Mirror Work. I'm pretty sure that's the title. And she asks you to every day look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you love yourself. And it is so hard in the beginning. And I think yet that that is so important for all of us because everyone doesn't need to leave a relationship. Some people have beautiful relationships where they're equal and the one person loves them as much as they love themselves. And so it's not for everyone to make a choice to move on, but for those of us who it is, we have to love ourselves.

Little Deaths And New Life

Danielle Elliott Smith 9:26

Well, it's funny because there's a quote that you that you used in the book, and it was a quote by Alberto. Is it Vil Oldo? Vil Oldo?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Um probably Vildo.

Danielle Elliott Smith 9:37

Yeah. Um, we are constantly challenged to face little deaths in our lives. So it may be not necessarily leaving a relationship, but there's something that needs to change: a relationship ending, loss of a loved one, a career, a cherished time in our lives. During transitions, we have time to reinvent ourselves. When we don't, a deadening happens. The deadening causes us to age instead of becoming the sage. If we go through these little deaths consciously, they become opportunities for new life. If we have the prerequisite courage, instead of being wounded by transitions, we come inspired by them. How we respond to adversity turns us into courageous beings. I marked that down because it feels to me that, like you're saying, not everyone is going through leaving a relationship, but so many of us go through these really intense transitions and we have the opportunity to turn it into something that can be a growth experience if we allow it to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Absolutely. I really loved in the beginning of this journey of being me. I loved sitting in the afternoon in my kitchen at the table. And I'm very blessed in so many ways. But I lived, I don't live there anymore, but I lived in on Mount Tamil Pius in Marin. And I could just hear the birds and see the blue sky and hear myself, hear myself. And I, yeah, I was still crying over the um the loss of what I thought was going to be forever, and also the change. Everything had to change. And yet, in that silence, I felt so much light. And I think that what he says is absolutely why I put it in my book. We go through so many little deaths. And I look at the world now and I weep for the people who are suffering all over the world, in Gaza, in Iran now, and all the wars, big and small, in our country. And I pray that people have some sort of connection with a higher spirit that shows them the way, because these are not times to not have courage.

Activism And The Do A Little Foundation

Danielle Elliott Smith 12:06

I completely agree. And there is so much going on. And this this part of the conversation speaks to the empath in you and the heart that you've always had for social justice and doing the right thing and do a little. So let's talk about your your activist work. Let's talk about your your yearning to do the right thing. So tell tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yes, I'm so happy. I started my Do a Little foundation in 2007, and its mission is to support women and girls in the areas of education, happiness, and what's the third one? Education, health and health. So sorry, I forgot.

Danielle Elliott Smith 12:59

No, that's okay. When we have things set when it's supposed to be three specific things, we think like wait, wait, one, two, three. I didn't remember as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

So when I started my goal, I had um we had had a foundation, Carlos and I, the Malagra Foundation, which served children. And so when I went on my own, I said, Oh, let me just now start to focus on women and girls because that's really my passion and that's my journey. So early on, I've supported um organizations around the world, um, but specifically I loved this one, the Daraja Academy, which is a school for girls in Kenya boarding school. And when I started in 2010, the school had 26 students, and now it has almost 300. So through that partnership, I've seen the work that I can do if I stick with something and I believe in it and continue to support it. How many lives can be affected in a positive way? And other organizations I support, it's the same. And I'm very much in support of domestic violence organizations, Center for Community Solutions in San Diego, violence intervention prevention in Los Angeles, women who have been through so much abuse and need someone to stand with them. So my work inspires me because I'm able to be a silent partner with these amazing organizations that are changing people's lives.

Ancestry Family And Raising Activists

Danielle Elliott Smith 14:27

One of the things I loved about your book, and this speaks to the work that you're doing now, is that you talk about your family, your history, where you come from. And there was a line that stuck out to me that, you know, you said that your ancestors gave you the gift of believing in yourself. And it's interesting because I don't have that depth of ancestry. I don't have that familial community. I don't have that history in my family. Um, and and those connections. I didn't grow up with that level of, or I don't feel that I did grow up with that level of support with it in my bones. And I found myself both inspired and a little bit jealous as I was reading through what your experiences had been, and that you could pull on so much of that. But what is so inspiring about what you're doing now is you're passing that on. You have chosen to say, I want to take this lived belief that that has been gifted to me in my bones. And how can I give it to others? How does it feel to see that manifesting in women and girls?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Well, it's very fulfilling, of course. And I really get the most joy, I think, from seeing it in my children, my grown children. They are formidable activists. And I love that they're teaching me now about so many organizations that are up and coming, and they're a lot more free with how they support people. They just go out and support someone who they find out about, and they don't have to do any vetting or looking. I mean, they do some vetting, of course, but to raise three activists who are going to change this world also is as important to me as me being of service to humanity. And I see in my beautiful adult children that ancestry. I see that in them. And you know, my Irish-English side was my mom's side, and she had four sisters, and they would come every summer, and they were kind of carousers, and the majority of them, except my mom, were drinkers and they have cocktails, and sit around and listen to my dad play the guitar and sing and and total joy, cackling, playing cards. And then my African-American side, my father, my paternal side was Holiness Church. And so we would be together in service and communion and fasting and praying. And I love that blend. I just love the blend of learning early on that families can be filled with all of these unique individuals with amazing histories and amazing futures, and that I can be sit in that amazing educational experience. And it's connected to me in a way that I wouldn't have been able to have any other way.

Danielle Elliott Smith 17:49

What's so neat about that is even as I'm listening to you describe it, it's that is how I've tried to raise my children, even without all of that history. What I have hoped more than anything is that they would be inspired by curiosity, that they would always find themselves in new situations, they would seek out new situations. And rather than being put off by something they didn't know or didn't understand, they would ask. They would say, Tell me more. If someone presented them with a new food or a new experience or something religious they weren't familiar with, rather than saying that's not how we do things, they would say, I don't know about that. Tell me about it. I want to learn more. And I too have adult children and watching them grow into their activism and grow into their opinions and grow into their feelings about the world has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. And I know you're seeing the very same in your kids as well. What what do you want your kids to say about you at the end of the day?

SPEAKER_02 18:56

I was there for them all the time with love and support. And I wanted to teach them to have tremendous compassion for themselves as they walk through this life.

Danielle Elliott Smith 19:13

How does it feel now to be standing on your own two feet? And I know you you mentioned in the book at one point going on a trip to Mexico and not being asked about your former partner, not having people say, Are you related to? Now getting to be Deborah, not someone's wife.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yes, well, it's been a long time. So I've really grown into my anonymity. I love going places. I don't think anymore that someone's looking at me or thinking about my last name or anything. I just live free now, and it's it's really a gift and it puts a smile on my face every day. I'm so grateful for my life. I love my life. I look forward to more adventures and especially with this book. I really look forward to touching other people with my experience and my growth.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

What has been the most challenging piece about this journey for you? I think continuing to shed the past.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

I want to be here now. I want to be in the present. And in the beginning of my journey by myself, I was constantly looking back and comparing and thinking about what I missed, or oh, I've been here before, or you know, I did this, and now I just want to be here now. I want to be with you right now, I want to be with the audience. I want to be in this moment of um seeing life from 30,000 feet and yet being present in exactly what's happening in this moment. And I really am doing pretty well with that. I don't, I try not to judge other people. That's really a big thing for me. And I think in this world of division and in our in the news every day, someone is judging someone and condemning someone every day. And I don't want to do that. I want to look at someone and think, oh, I want to be the rainbow in your cloud. I want to be the person who doesn't burden you with what I think. And I want to be the person who can offer love, even in a glance.

Danielle Elliott Smith 21:38

That's beautiful. My daughter sent me a TikTok yesterday, and it was a this is me looking at my mom as she is doing the things she loves, and it's like, oh, that's so cute. That's so adorable. I love seeing her so happy. How have your kids been with your evolution? How have they been watching you? grow into this free version of you.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Well, we travel together a lot. I really love to be with my family. They, my two children who are here have grandkids for me. They have children, children of their own. And my daughter who lives in Connecticut, I try to be with her as much as possible. And I think they all, they're always just so supportive. And I just love that. If I say, oh, I'm I'm a little worried about this or gosh I'm nervous about my memoir coming out and they just say oh mom go for it. You know you can do this. We believe in you. And it's reciprocal. So I know I'm fortunate. I just want the best for them and they want the best for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Deborah, how do you define hope?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Hope is knowing that we are all divine souls and that we are going to lift ourselves and others up with a faith in a greater power, faith in God, faith in spirit and that what looks like it's permanent on earth is really temporal. For people who are contemplating picking up your book who is it for I think my book is for anyone who wants to see someone's life and what they did with what they were given. I always say to whom much is given, much is required. And I really think that I have made a good journey out of what I was given. I don't look back with any regrets. I don't look back with any condemnation for anyone I've been involved with. I look at my life as what it was for me to grow. And I don't love being around people who are constantly blaming others for their life experiences. I like to look at what my part in something was and how could I have done better? How could I have given more and yet I also look back and say not going to do that again. So I think I really want anyone who wants to look at a life that is I think my life is a little bit interesting. So um I I welcome people to read my book if they want to know more about me.

Danielle Elliott Smith 24:53

I also would encourage anyone who is looking for inspiration or encouragement when it comes to making change or pushing through or wanting to see what comes next when we are faced with some adversity. Because I think that sometimes it's easy to sit back and say okay now what? Is is there something out there more for me?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

And I think you do a beautiful job of saying this is what's always been inside me and I'm going to take the steps I need to get quiet and these are the steps I need to take to push through absolutely shed the old walk through the fire birth the new and be regenerated what comes next for you we've got this book do a little what comes next well I'm very involved with the Smithsonian I'm um on the advisory council for the National Museum of African American History and Culture and we'll be celebrating our 10 years in September. I'm also a lead donor and co-chair of the steering committee for the Courage Museum in the Presidio in San Francisco and we will be opening next year and our mission is to show people that violence is not an inevitable part of life and we want to offer change to human beings who don't know yet that violence is not a necessary part of life.

Danielle Elliott Smith 26:52

Wow where can people find you?com and on Instagram at dssantana and on Facebook yeah this is amazing I'm so grateful to you for spending time with me I so enjoyed the book I've so enjoyed getting a little bit of personal time with you. Thank you for being here with me.

Share The Show And Closing

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Thank you so much Danielle have a beautiful day.

Sponsor Thanks And Farewell

Danielle Elliott Smith 27:21

Thank you you too and friends thank you so much for spending time with Deborah and I on this episode of Hope Comes to Visit. Please take some time to share it with the people that you love and until we get to spend time together again take very good care of you naturally it's important to thank the people who support and sponsor the podcast this episode is supported by Chris Dulley, a trusted criminal defense attorney and friend of mine here in St. Louis, who believes in second chances and solid representation. Whether you're facing a DWI, felony or traffic issue, Chris handles your case personally with clarity, compassion and over 15 years of experience. When things feel uncertain it helps to have someone steady in your corner. Call 314 384000 or 314 DUI help or you can visit doublylawfirm.com to schedule your free consultation.