Religion and Relationships- with Terry & Cherie

Today we are digging a little into some vulnerable, yet important topics with my Mom. I am helping to understand my perspective when it comes to religion and Relationships. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I was so involved in church, I thought I was gonna be a nun for a minute. You didn't like that either. Well, you guys, I'm just gonna be honest, this episode is scary. This episode is vulnerable, and I'm recording this in the middle of editing, and like I'm nervous. But also, I think this conversation is really important, and I'm so thankful that I had it, and I'm honored to share it with you. But it is scary. So, welcome to the bubbly babble where I am talking some heavy stuff today. I'm talking to my mom, I'm telling her a little bit about my deconstruction of faith, which is a really big thing for me. I'm also talking to her about being polyamorous and what that means for me. Um, and we're getting a little bit into her stuff. This is a vulnerable conversation with my mom. And thank you for being here. This is this is me. So, without further ado, another episode of the bubbly babble. Okay, do you want to talk about the thing that you sent me? Or wanna talk about Easter?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

What happened on Easter? It's not always bad stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Oh, it's just how I how I feel about Easter.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

About the holiday? Yeah. I don't want to discuss that.

unknown 1:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

And I don't think it would be appreciated for people to listen to it either. I think it's very rare. I think you're wrong. I don't want to hear that you don't believe in God. I don't want to hear it.

unknown 1:33

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yep. Because I g I just can't understand all the good things you have in your life and you don't believe in God. You don't believe. Like I just it's so hard for me. And so let's talk about the hard thing. But I don't understand. Well, then don't you want to talk to me too? You have talked we've had the conversation a couple of times and I just don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, then maybe you're not listening. I'm not trying to change your mind. I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

I don't know how you changed your mind. What I'm saying is I want to tell you. But you you said you read all this stuff. And um, like who put that stuff in your hand? Like, why did you start reading all that stuff?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Why were you curious? It's it's fact and should be fact to you. What you were taught, what's in the Bible.

unknown 2:22

My hair.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I I read the Bible. The first I guess we're talking about it anyway. Sorry, Mom, but we're talking about this. The first thing I read that started to change my mind was the Bible. But you've read the Bible all your life, and then I have not read the Bible all my life. When you were in youth groups, no, I read snippets of the Bible that were given to me. I did that for most of my life, and I was a youth group junkie. I I was so involved in church, I thought I was gonna be a nun for a minute. You didn't like that either. No, look. I know, of course. But the the more of the Bible I read, this is my story. It's not for everyone. It's not for everyone to decide they feel how I feel. Well, did you go the opposite way? Sure did. Sure did. I read the Bible and and I just started to be like, well, why? Why who gave who who says this is the right story? They say there are two sides to every story. Because they were there and they took notes. How do you know?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That's what it is. These are like, you know, uh, you know they didn't write it for dec like centuries.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

It was passed down by word of mouth.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I don't know if it was passed down by word of mouth or writing. I'm telling you, it was passed down by word of mouth. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like, the people that the people that don't believe in the Bible and Jesus Christ are horrible. They're bad. They're mean.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Do you think I'm horrible and bad in me?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

No. No.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

What about me has what about me as a human being, my personality has changed since I stopped believing in God? Things you do that you don't feel that you should be doing.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Not that you don't feel you should be doing, because you do what you want to do. Back when when before you did all this. What is all this? The Bible, reading the Bible. Okay. Before you did all this, you wouldn't have stepped out of your marriage.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I'm not stepping out of my marriage.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

You know what I mean. I I'm not saying exactly that. You have any guilt with anything that you do. Why should I? Because it's wrong. And if you your marriage part of it. Why? And because you took vows.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

But who said it's wrong? If my if the person that I made the vow with doesn't say it's wrong, who else matters? It's not wrong. It's not my job to dig into him. If he tells me it's not, then it's my job to honor him and believe it. Okay. Do you think it's hurting him? That's what he's trying to tell you. I think it would. And it would, however. So what's wrong with doing that? If it makes me happy. Do you think if I thought it was hurting him that I would keep doing it? To honor that, what's wrong with it? It's not making you happy. Happy is not an all the time thing. Yeah, but you were not happy, very upset, not happy. Me being polyamorous isn't just this one person. Let's say I was a monogamous person and I happen to bump into somebody who feels like somebody really important in my life, and I was married to someone who is not understanding and who wants to lock me into their bubble, and there's a piece of something that's missing for me. Should I be unhappy for the rest of my life just because I made a vow when I was 29?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Unless they are um mistreating you, you know, uh physically or mentally. Yeah, because you took vows.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Okay, so you would rather me be unhappy because I made vows when I was younger.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I wouldn't assume that you wouldn't be unless he changed and was not and was physical or mentally abusive. Because there's no other reason.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Not not awful, but not good is still not good. I'm not, and that's not what I'm saying about my marriage.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

I know, but like you and other people, normal people.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Um I don't think that word's fair. Uh huh. I don't think that's a fair word. What's normal?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

See? Sure. You and other people, and normal people who don't do what you do, sometimes don't know that they're not happy and and stuff like that. So once they if you let me finish the sentence, you would have known that I meant like normal marriage.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I'm still not a fan of the word normal.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Well, but don't don't judge me before I finish my sentence. That's me.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Let me finish.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, I know. How does it feel? But like I what it comes down to is that human connection is something that lights me up inside. My husband knows that, and he doesn't expect to light every part of me up. And so for him, someone else lighting a different part of me up that he isn't built for him to do, isn't made for him to do, is outside of his expertise. Like at the end of the day, it makes me more whole. Like what build you up how? We have very different um emotional needs. We were raised emotionally different. Our trauma is.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

What emotional need are you getting off of what you're with right now?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I don't really know that that's that's what's important. Because I feel like that narrative says, I'm missing something in my marriage. I need to find it somewhere else. That's not what's occurring.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Okay. What's occurring is that makes me feel better. I realized that I have a bigger bucket, right? So they say, like, don't pour it out of an empty cup, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I never heard that.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Of course, you've never heard that. You should hear that, probably more than anyone.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

It means you can't pour if you have nothing to give.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And so you have to make sure that your bucket is filled. And I am about to say one of the saddest things I will ever say, I'm gonna make sure we're still recording. I don't think you have any idea what it means to have your bucket filled. That's horribly sad.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

And so the fact that I didn't know until now makes it work.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Here's the thing you have had to survive for your birthday, is next week. Ah I don't care. I think it's important. I think it's important. Because you know, yeah. Because also I think that people need to understand that even at an age that people think is high, your life is still ahead of you. You can still grow, you can still heal yourself potentially, and you can still learn. So if at here here we go, 70 years old, you are just finding this out about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So all that time is wasted and gone. There's not a future, like there's not going to be relationships in my future. You don't know that. No, I don't.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

You don't know that.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I don't.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

And if I'm being really honest, I think that the an indicator of having a future relationship is learning about that stuff about you.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah. See, all the times in my life that people have been interested in me, I never thought they were interested in me. I mean, that's happened a lot.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

A lot. And that, I mean, we could probably dig into why very quickly. We've talked a little bit about you not feeling seen in your in your family being raised. Um, what was the thing you sent me the other day? Let me find it. You saved it.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

I have a mother-daughter thingy.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Oh, okay. So I can use it. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Not against you.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

I know, I'm just kidding. You said I don't know who this quote is by, so I cannot accredit it. I apologize. When a woman grows up feeling unseen, she learns to love by overgiving. She pours into everything else. Pour, like I was saying earlier, hoping that one day someone will finally pour back into her. Hoping, hoping that one day someone will finally pour back into her.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

She becomes talking about a a spouse too, or a spouse a partner.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

She becomes the caretaker, the fixer, the one who shows up even when no one shows up for her. And the hardest part, deep down, she's not trying to be strong. She's just waiting for someone to do for her what she spent her whole life doing for everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

That's so me.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

It is very you, and that's hard. And like I am sorry that that's I'm sorry that that's been your experience. And because I think the word and is better than the word but because I think that you can hold two ideas simultaneously. But like, I'm sorry that happened, and I still think you can grow from it, and I think that like it was for something.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

I see that that's me.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

But now what?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Now what?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Well, that's where therapy comes in.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

And that's where a good therapist comes in. Your initial reaction is is a quick quick way to think, it's not a problem with you, but like, wow, 70 years wasted. That's not true. Because you still have the rest of your life. We have no idea how long that will be. You can make the best of that. Yeah. Which brings it back to my marriage. Just because we've operated under the framework that we bought into doesn't mean that how we continue moving forward. And so that's kind of one of the things is like how all of this happened. Do you remember how I got here as far as polyamory? Oh.

unknown 11:29

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I obviously was raised with the idea of traditional marriage being the only way to go. Pretty much a lot of people are. But even back then, even with that, I didn't have great representation of marriage in my life. Nope. Right? So I just, you know, I did what I was supposed to do. And that's also what my husband did. We were taught that. And he also didn't have a stellar example of marriage in his home. Okay, so what happened was I went out with a friend who I genuinely just we're friends. I I'm married, right? Like, and this was after we had, you know, decided that the way that we were living our our life by the big book was no longer what we wanted to do. And my friend hit on me. And I remember thinking, oh my God, that's how affairs happened. That's so strange. Why? I was like, You've met my husband. What are you doing? And uh we had great conversation that night about a world that I didn't fully understand, some of it I didn't even know about, which is polyamory, ethical non-monogamy. Of course, people talk about swingers, but it's not that. It's that's kind of where the conversation began. And then uh nothing happened. And then the next morning, my husband said, How was last night? And I went, it got weird. And I had this moment because like I flirted with the guy. I said, Hey, we can flirt all night. Nothing is happening. It would hurt my husband's feelings because we had previously stated that like cheating was like a dead stop for him. That's that's a no-go. Like that was the only thing I could ever do. And so that's why I knew even with my friend who was flirting with me all night, none of our body parts touched. And I said, that would hurt my husband's feelings. It's not, it does, it didn't even matter whether or not I wanted to. It would have hurt my husband's feeling, you know? And so So I come home and he said, How was last night? I said, It get weird because I knew in this moment I could tell him everything or nothing. I could say, It was good, never talk about it again. But that's like a weird, that plant's a weird seed. I was thinking about it. I was like, it was nice to feel feel someone attracted to me. That's a normal human emotion. Flirting is fun, it is what many people enjoy doing. And I said, it got weird, and I I told him every bit of it. And I'm a storyteller, so I remembered a lot of the details. And you know, he goes, Okay, cool. So you had fun. And I'm like, You're not mad? He was like, No. Now I was upset that he wasn't upset, right? For about two weeks, we talked back and forth. Like I would bring it up. You sure you're not mad? You don't want to talk about it? Why aren't you mad? And he was like, Do you want me to be mad? And I'm like, I don't know. But part of the conversation was like, there is this world that exists where that one act having sex is not seen as the end-all be-all that the big book says it is, kind of says it is, because it really doesn't say it is. It evolved into me learning what polyamory was, what ethical non-monogamy is, what all the I I just learned for probably a year or more. I read books and listened to podcasts and reconnected with people that I knew from earlier in my life, and they were experiencing similar things and talking about it. And of course, you know, the last five years we've all had TikTok and people learn things on TikTok and people talk about their lives so that other people can see that they're not living their life alone. There are many, many people who love their spouse and have love for another person or love their spouse, but also enjoy sexual activities with other people. So after some time we talked about it and we realized, well, if we don't follow the rules of that book, who's what rules are we following? And why? Who says that's a rule that's important? God is a but God is an entity that we don't believe in.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I think he doesn't. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

But why should we why would we continue to follow rules that are from something that we don't believe in?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I don't know. Uh uh the effect on the kids too. Like what effect? Um, like you don't like the holidays, although you do you went totally off the wall, I mean out of the way for Easter. But they should be in church. Let me take them.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

What does ch why why?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

What do it gives them church believe in?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

They believe in themselves.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Well, that's fine. Every peop most people believe in themselves. But I didn't. But that was part of like so people who go to church look at you. People go to church believe in themselves. You just want them to learn something different. Like, they don't have to go to all that youth group stuff, but it also gives them a vent, you know, and I don't know. Just a little bit of structure. But I don't believe I can see Jacob singing his little heart out.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I know, but he could sing his little heart out to Aerosmith or Elvis or Bruno Mars. Like, why does it need to be that?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

What did those feelings do do to you?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Music does that to me.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, and that and him, and it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

It doesn't have to just be. We don't the biggest, most important lesson that I have unlearned in my deconstruction of faith is that religion and sp I don't know about other religions, but very specifically Christianity, teaches you that you are bad and you are born with sin, but because something died for you, even though you didn't ask to be born, that if you pledge your allegiance to them, you will be better. But just remember that you're only good because that thing loves you. That doesn't sit well with me. It taught me to deny my intuition, to feel that my emotions were bad, to feel that caring about my body or touching my own body was evil. I don't know if all that stuff. I mean, you that's what I took it to the but but I took it in the way they wanted me to take it. It's not that I took it to the extreme. I took it the way they wanted me to take it, even even less so than a lot of people that I knew and grew up with, right? And so when I started to examine that, it was like, but but why was I bad? Why why is that? That's that's a weird concept to me. And every thought I had to put through a lens of God, but someone else is the person that told me what they believe that God is, it just didn't start making sense to me. I'm not necessarily saying that there is no being greater than ourselves. I've I have no idea, but I don't believe in a God that is utilized by religious organizations to control people, which I know that sounds really tinfoil hat. Like I I know that. But like at some point I just stopped believing that I was inherently bad and needed saving.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

But I I I you took it to extremes by believing that is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

But that's what they want you to believe. That's not what I believe ever.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And I went to Catholic school too.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

But that that's what they want you to believe.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

I don't know if that's true. I think you just believe in God and and follow his his uh commandments. That's his commandments.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Okay, so hear me out. So, what commandments do you think let's go through the commandments. Do you think I encourage my children or am raising my children to kill people?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Thou shalt not covet each other's okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Which that's that's the thing about spouse is that's the same as thou shalt not covert covet your neighbor's possessions, which makes your spouse a possession's neighbor's wife.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

It wasn't possession. Yeah, but there's another one.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, there's ten of them. But it's in the same it's it's written in the same context, subtext of of possessions, and when that was written, spouses were possessions. I don't see my spouse as a possession of me, and he doesn't see me as a possession of him, which is why I am free to do in my life what this is all your interpretation, it's just not how you know that's the way you want it to interpret.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

But I mean, how else did they want it to be interpreted? Do you think? Spouse. Right, but that that's your husband, right? But like and you don't cheat on him or her, right? But I'm not right. I got I I understand all that. I understand okay, yeah. But you're asking me the boys, you know. Well, how are you not doing? Well, honor it's honor thy father and mother, do not kill. You use the Lord's name in vain. I still always say, Oh my gosh. No, you do not. Most of the time I do.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

You also say Jesus Christ alone.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah, I'm praying when I do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

This is what I mean. What you think I am missing from my life is guilt. Yeah, I have yeah, that's I think that you are bound by guilt and you should be set free.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

That's true. But who else does these wonderful things for you out in the atmosphere? Like you know. Why not me? I don't know. Why not me? Why not you? Why can't I be from it?

SPEAKER_01 20:27

I guess you're just one of the people I know that have that. Yeah, but I but why can't it be from me? Like I'm in I'm I understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

You're aura.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Right, but like even praying, right? Like I a little bit understand praying. I think it got twisted and utilized. Like, like our fathers and Hail Mary's, that's not a prayer for yourself, it's a prayer to someone else. Praying or manifesting is like just sending the energy into the universe that these are the things I want. And yes, they are coming true. And I do believe if more people did that, it would help them. But it it doesn't mean that I have to be like thankful to a thing that I don't believe exists in that way. How can you not believe in God when you believe in love? What is what I believe in the love that comes from myself? I believe I just don't believe it comes from something else. I believe that the spirit is in me. I believe in my soul as a human. I don't know. Like it just and I'm not saying there's nothing, but there's so much that specifically that book I don't think is good. And the rules that come from it.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

It comforts me when I go and I read the, you know, like because I do if I feeling I'll go and listen.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Losing my faith was one of the hardest things I ever did. I didn't do it lightly. It took a year, it was painful. I wouldn't suggest anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

It was painful because of guilt.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

It was painful because everything I ever believed, I now believed was a lie. So, no, not guilt.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

You shouldn't believe. Everything's a lie.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

You don't believe anything's a lie, Queen AI. Oh my god. I don't know what is AI and what isn't. I just but but that's what I mean is like and that's that's the good thing about religion. I don't want to take it from people, but I won't allow it to dictate a life that I lead when I'm in control of my life, and I'm not going to teach my children to let it dictate their life they want to lead.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Well, they won't if they're not in Catholic school. Pretty much. Or a Christian school.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

But what is it specifically about Christianity? Do you think they need to know that I'm not teaching them? With the exception of the God thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

The God thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

So so nothing.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

So they have belief in something.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

I my kids are going to learn about death. It's a natural part of life.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Well, yes, but it but you gotta explain why things happen like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Sometimes we don't that's the answer. The answer is that nobody knows.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Well, I mean, like when I go, they're gonna be like, you know, sad. Of course. And they're gonna want to know answers. Right. You're not gonna like the answers I give them. Well, I'll be dead, so do nice. Be nice. Say good things. Say because God wanted her in heaven for a party or something. But that's not the truth. And then then so then the truth, you don't heaven and earth. You don't believe in heaven and earth? I don't believe in heaven.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

I I stopped believing in hell first. And so when I stopped believing I stopped being afraid of being sent to hell. And so then it was like, well, if I don't believe in a hell, then that leaves what? Everybody going to heaven. I don't believe in that either. So I don't believe in either of them. I think I probably believe in reincarnation.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I believe in reincarnation.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Well, re reincarnation is not heaven or hell.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

I know.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Unless you're coming here, because this is the bad place.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

I can't I can't even get into reincarnation because I'm starting to believe in it more. What's wrong with that? I mean, and I believe in hand. I believe like these movies that they put out. I believe it's only if all I I mean, I believe these kids were up there and came back and told stories.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, but just maybe it's not a god in the way that we see it. Maybe it's not a god in the way that's like like I think that that god that they're talking, I don't think they give a shit whether or not I only sleep with my husband.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

That you're a good person, that's all that matters.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah. Yeah. But if good people die in the same way bad people do, they have to. So the way that I don't believe in God is just I have removed guilt from my life, and you probably should try it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

I can't. I would feel guilty about not being guilty. I'm serious. It just rolled out of my mouth. That's how I feel. If I've been if I have guilt all my this life, you think I'm gonna change now?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

I think you could if you wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

I'm such a um my loyalty even to God is just I can't. I'll think I'll burn in hell or something. And that's anybody pretty much my age that was raised like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Listen, I think that there are people like you. I don't think that you are like the worst case scenario, right? Like I don't think you're alone, but I do think that it would behoove you, I don't know where that came from, to to realize that other people have different perspectives and they don't have to be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

People my age were born and raised and they're pretty solid in their How many people just like you, but worse than you, don't have relationships with their children because they're not kind to them?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

How many people feel exactly how you A lot. A lot. A lot. You know what I mean? Like there's I understand I and here Wait, you're saying I'm not kind? No, that's not what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

But there are things you do that, you know, are frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

And there's things you do that are everybody's frustrating. There's things your husband do that's frustrating, you're things your best friends do that are frustrating. Everybody does, nobody's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Right. But I have the ability to go to my friends and be like, hey, this thing happened. Can we talk about it? Can we grow about it? You and your generation have absolutely no interest in doing that. In the same way that you wanted to fix things for your mom growing up, you wanted to make things good for her. I became that for you growing up. We it wasn't intentional, but you know, you were able to focus on me. And you know, if I was good, you were good. You were working a lot, you weren't putting anything effort into yourself, you weren't dating, you weren't happy, you were dating in secret, right? But like you could put your energy into me and I would make it okay. It it gave you something to live for.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Then I grew up and wanted to be my own person, and you didn't have that anymore. But instead of just recognizing well, because you didn't know, instead of us recognizing that's what's going on, and that you needed to be able to do that, you needed to be able to live for yourself, it became contention. It became you feeling disregarded and getting angry and frustrated with me, and that's where it started to grow.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Fester.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Fester today's today's episode of SAT words with Barry and Sherry. But you know, like people who've listened to these episodes, they have said, You can tell there's so much love in your conversations. You guys will be incredibly frustrated at each other and literally laughing two seconds later, right? I feel like it's important to share that because there do you know how many there are there are literally millions of people having the same or similar conversations issues. Maybe it's not Catholicism, maybe it's Judaism, maybe it's you know, there there are parents who have these deeply held beliefs, and there are children who are growing in in ways that feel really important to them, and the parents are shutting them down because it's not something they believe, and then the people don't want their parents in their life. Because if I constantly think, well, my mom doesn't approve of me, I'm not gonna want to tell you things, I'm not gonna want you around. Well, you know, not just you.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

A lot of these conversations I don't agree with you, but you you you're enlightening me. You know what I mean? So that's not bad.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So, like when you say And kudos to that day it works because you're letting the other day it worked. Well, because it's a conversation, it's give and take. You've come a long way.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

No, you've never tried.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

That's not true.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Um, the guy I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell you anything if you don't approve. Well, it's I'm not gonna approve all the time right away. It's that it's a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

It's not that I need you to agree with me all the time, but if you're gonna be judgmental, then no, I'm not gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Judgmental? How am I how would you tell if I was being tell judgmental?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Because you raised me and I am you, and I know what it looks like when you get judgmental, and it's a shame that this isn't a video recording so that everyone can see your face right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I mean, it it's it doesn't seem like that. It seems like you're being defensive because I'm not jumping up and down.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

No, but what I would no, I don't expect you to jump up and down. You know what I think part of it is because people don't understand polyamory, and so people think it's a dirty thing, and you know, it's literally just more love. It's literally just more love.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Well, you can twist anything you want to say and to make it what it is, and I'm not saying that it's not, you know, because I do have a little more understanding of things.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I was thinking about it today. So, this person that I'm dating, what what I get from that connection makes me feel very filled, very like alive, very excited about regular things, more so than I usually am, even. And because I have that extra layer, I find myself giving more to my family, being able to be a little bit more settled to sit down and build the Lego and not get frustrated to spend intentional time with my husband, because I'm aware that I have another person in my atmosphere. So I'm trying to double down on making sure that my husband feels as important as he is to me. And so if there weren't another pressure doing that, it's very easy for me to just be like, well, he's there, which is what a lot of marriages do also. Just because people are married have been married for 50 years in your generation doesn't mean they were happy. I think a happy marriage is the goal. I think that if you make it 70 years, but you don't even like each other, what's the point of that?

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Your aunt and uncle, I think they're crazy about each other.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

And it's the cutest, most amazing thing. That's why those things were good. They they they got along, they like being around one another. But look at um our neighbors across the street. Do you think those old people liked each other? No, no, I don't believe in the goal of of making it long term in any situation where you're not happy. Now, take that with a grain of salt. I'm not saying, oh, I'm feeling grumpy today. I think I'm gonna get divorced. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying a lot of these people, especially in your generation and definitely older, like, like they didn't even these rules about marriage. Wow, never even thought of this one before. These rules about marriage, they were marrying 13-year-olds that their parents set them up. It's not that wasn't love always. But marriage isn't the goal, love is right. If marriage, if if love also ends it, like if love also encompasses marriage, that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Well, here's this with the with the other thing going on, so you you're say you're dating, you won't work as hard to figure things out with Simon if you got uh guy on the side.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Why do you think that?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

I don't know. Because of what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Okay. But the guy on the side isn't the father of my children.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

The guy on the side isn't the person I've spent 15 years growing a life with.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Why would I want to because you think it might be better, but it's not because you haven't given them 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

But I can have both.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

That's the difference. It's and okay, so what it really, real, really boils down to what is polyamory for me and my husband and my marriage and for my life, it means that when I meet a human and connect with a human, I am free to explore that connection in any way I see fit. I don't have to box it in, I don't have to have expectations. Those kinds of connections just come naturally. I'm not going to be attracted to every person I meet for the rest of my life. I don't know, I might be. But it's not just that. Now I'm a polyamorous person. I think that's like a part of my identity. It is my makeup, it's my perspective. I have the ability to care that incredibly deeply about multiple people. I don't think that's the truth for everyone. I don't know if that's the truth for my husband. So that's a different thing. That polyamory has nothing to do with sex. It has nothing to do with sex. That's the part that's the most important. It has nothing to do with sex. Polyamory is about the ability to care, to love more um poly.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

More poly means many or multiple.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Many or multiple. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Comes from the Greek word poly.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

If you go back in the human history, like cave people, they probably had it's there's evidence from anthropologists. Monogamy was not the thing. Look at kings, look at pharaohs, look at the Bible. The Bible has Abraham had how many wives? Um, you know, so it's like we just stopped that that one belief that somebody decided. We were like, maybe that doesn't work for us. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

But then why do you treat it different online? What do you mean? Like you'll say, Well, I'm poly or whatever you do. Why do you treat it different than what you're doing? Why tell people?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

That's a great question. I'm glad you asked. Because I think it's me living authentically is living a polyamorous life. It is, it just feels so true to my soul to be able to care about whoever comes into my life and not have to box it in and not feel worried because I have like too much of an attraction to a human that I like care about. And I think that's more normal than people say, which is why it's hush, hush and quiet. And I think that maybe part of my job is to talk about it so that people can see that they feel that way and it's okay to live that way too.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Who put that who gave you that job? God. That's not good.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

But but I do think it is part of my purpose in life. Do I know who gave me that purpose? No.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

If there wasn't anybody, there wouldn't be a purpose.

unknown 34:23

Probably.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

But I mean Einstein and all these people, they just didn't. I think So you don't believe in the Pope either?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

No, he's a he's a person. He's a leader of the Catholic Church. But like, I don't think he's infallible.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Well, but that's what Catholics believe.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

No, they don't believe he's infallible. Mom, it's in the bylaws.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Yeah, it's like in the bylaws.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

This is nobody's infallible.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

They say the Pope is infallible.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

No, nobody's infallible.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Mom, how but like, this is what I mean. I just stopped believing that stuff that you already don't believe.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Well, I believe stuff. That's not ridiculous. That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Oh my god, you're gonna make me look it up.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

No. Why?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

You looked something up. Why can't I?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

I just looked meta. I just went on meta, that's all.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Is the Pope? Is the Pope infallible? The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible only under specific rare conditions, not in everything he says or does. So that's fair. This dogma defined in 1870 holds that the Pope is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit only when speaking ex Cathedra.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

From where? From when?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

From the Holy Spirit. Just because it says Holy Spirit on the Google doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit exists.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

It does to most people. It does to me. And you know what? I don't think I think the Holy Spirit put you into doing talking about this stuff. I think it's my purpose for sure. I think the Holy Spirit, like, like he brings people like together. Like it, it's just weird.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

I think that's the universe.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Oh, right. Why does it have to be holy? Why not? What's holy? What's it the word isn't gonna change anything?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Holy describes something sacred, divine, or set apart for religious purposes. What is the word religion? Because I believe in like divine, but I believe it's the universe. I don't believe it's God. I don't believe it's Jesus. I think Jesus was a good guy. Okay, religious refers to a devotion to a deity, ultimate reality, or adherence to specific beliefs and practices. East Asian religions focus on philosophical or ethical systems. I just don't believe in Christianity. I don't believe in Abrahamic religions. There we go.

unknown 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

And if there are so many different kinds of religions, why is one right and the other one's wrong? And who decides that? I don't get like religions are the reason we have war. Obviously. What about that is a good thing?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

No.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

When I read the Bible, the first thing that I made me go, what? was like all of the crusades in Genesis, just talking about all the people they slaughtered in the name of God. What? Why is that a good thing? Who where's their Bible? Who are those people? All I'm saying is that's how it started.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

I mean, I I I this time I did learn a lot about where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Good. Thank you. That's the goal, you know, and like the way that it kind of started today was like you get defensive when I mom, you get defensive.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

No, you you you shut me up like um that don't do this or don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

I don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Whatever it was. Whatever it was, I think it was he didn't have shoes on.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Oh no, it was that he had pajamas on. And you were like, you can't wear them outside of the house.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

I didn't say you can't wear them.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

You were like you have them on, you shouldn't be wearing them because you have Okay. So shouldn't still be in them for a weekend.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I know, but like what does shouldn't mean?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Not why? Why? Why yeah? Why do you gonna uh hit me on with that? Is it big a deal that you'd have to say that?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yes, because I don't I don't want them to believe in that they shouldn't do something that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

It does why because it what do they go out and they're on look at it put clothes on before he entered the door?

SPEAKER_01 38:05

They know the rules. Why does it matter if they walk out in shirts that are made to be slept in? But which the only difference is that they're softer. Why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

That's not really softer, that one there.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Okay, but like why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Because there's clothes for night and there's clothes for day, and Oliver doesn't like he'll just wear 24 hours.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

So it makes them comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

I know, but they have to be cleaned. They do get cleaned when they're not my house. They don't, he doesn't take them off. He won't even put pajamas on.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

What about the clothes they're wearing has anything to do with what kind of a human they are?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

It doesn't. So that's where what I focus on. But I don't want to just talk to them when I have when it's not necessary. You were raised not to wear your stuff out and playing, you know, you don't go out in your pajamas. It's just, and I wanted you to know they were pajamas, they weren't a play suit.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

You told me three times.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

And I did want you to know, didn't I?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

You sure did. But that's but I just like let him play. You're stopping him from having joy because some weird thought that you were raised with, you know what I mean? Like it's that. That's what I'm trying to not do to them.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

I have to order this.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Are you even paying attention?

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, I am. So if you don't believe in God, then why would you go to a psychic? Psychics aren't got No, but they're very spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I'm not not spiritual. I don't believe in God.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

That's another conversation then.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Listen, things have to be connected. The way that I see the the same, like, whatever, we'll talk about manifestation or woo-woo or witchiness. I think what I am learning about witchiness is that it is just living life with intention. That's all it is. And and for me, being connected to the things that are on this earth that nourish me, like an understanding better, like maybe why we're here as human beings, as souls, as creatures. Well, we've we've ADHD enough, but I think that we also have some other things that we can probably dig into. All right. Say goodbye to your followers. Goodbye, followers.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Follow me soon. Maybe by then I'll be a poly.