Los Angeles Comic-Con "Problematic Films" SPECIAL EPISODE

In this special episode of Queer Horror: A Film Guide - The Podcast, we present a live recording of the Los Angeles Comic-Con "Problematic Films" panel, moderated by Sean Abley. Panelists include QHAFG contributor and Midnight Mass podcast co-host Michael Varrati, QHAFG cover artist Brendan Haley,  Horror Movie Survival Guide podcast co-host Teri Gamble, and comic artist and film critic William O. Tyler.

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Queer Horror: A Film Guide - The Podcast is a 30 minute deep(ish) dive into a classic (or not-so-classic) horror film found in the 500-page encyclopedia of genre films with LGBTQ content, Queer Horror: A Film Guide. Each episode Sean Abley, creator/co-editor of Queer Horror: A Film Guide, asks one of the contributors to pick a film they wrote about for the book that deserves even more queer analysis. Guests include co-editor Tyler Doupé, contributors Calpernia Addams, Daniel W. Kelly, Brian Kirst, Michael Varrati, and special guest Heather O. Petrocelli, PhD.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Hi everybody. My name is John Abley. I am the creator. Thank you for that tiny bit of applause over there. I'm the creator of a book called Queer Horror a Film Guide. And this is a yeah, this is nine, nine, seven solid, nine truly years of work. 500 pages, 900 plus films, horror films with LGBTQ content. If that number sounds high to you, it was a surprise to me as well when we put this book together. And it was written by myself and seven other writers. And in the process of putting this book together, I really realized how difficult it is for queer people to navigate horror if we're going to be really strict about like representation and you know themes and all of that stuff. And I realized that for me navigating that stuff was actually okay. And I was sort of letting some films off the hook. And so that brought me around to like this idea of problematic films and and what we do with them now. And so I called some of my friends who I feel like are all uh will be great voices and and uh thinkers about this topic to just dive into what it means to you know appreciate movies that maybe don't cast muster. So I'm gonna introduce everybody. I'm gonna start all the way down at the end. The gorgeous Terry Gamble. Terry Gamble. Uh she's an actor. Um you've seen them on Modern Family, Mrs. Davis, Dollface, and the upcoming grind, the uh the side hustle gig uh horror anthology. Uh they're a cat owner, which is important to me as a fellow crazy cat.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

There was some drama. It's like a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Guys, we don't have to talk about the drama of the cats falling out the window earlier this year. They were having a fight over their favorite spot in Perch. And yeah, they went on a rum springer for about a week and a half, uh, made some new friends with the community cats. They had a new little girlfriend for a little while who used to come out the window and meow. Anyway, they're fine. If you follow inside now.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

If you follow Terry's Instagram, it was a whole thing. And they're named after characters in uh Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is a film we are going to talk about today. Other uh credits, co-host of the long-running horror movie survival guide and horror X, which is done in conjunction with the George A. Romero Foundation. So welcome, Terry. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. Thanks, guys. Thanks for being here, everybody.

SPEAKER_05 2:39

Uh next is William O. Tyler, artist, writer, editor. He edited and contributed to the comic anthology's We Belong Here, which is an all-black, all LGBTQ plus science fiction and fantasy anthology. Uh, yellow is the warmest color, and theater of terror, revenge of the queers. And William can always be counted on to be uh an insightful media critic as well. So please give a warm welcome to William. You're unbelievable. I actually, what does O stand for?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Umell. Odell. But it's funny, I've I'm I've been nominated for a Lambda Literary Award. What? But they misspelled it and put O apostrophe Tyler. Oh so now I'm Irish.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

I'm sorry, that's hilarious. Great. So am I. Maybe we're from the same idea. Um next, uh moving toward me, uh, Michael Varati, who is one of the contributors to Queer Horror 5. He is also a podcaster currently on Midnight Mass, which he does with Peaches Christ. He is a director, a writer, producer of Fangoria's Chainsaw Awards, and a contributor to Fangoria magazine. He does a lot of directing for Boole Brothers Dragula, and he's done a ton of horror movies and Christmas movies, including his latest, which is sort of burning it up out there, the queer zombie black comedy, I guess you would call it. Uh, there's a zombie outside, macarati. And then right next to me is the cover artist of Queer Horror Film Guys. I'm gonna hold this up again for another plug, but look at that beautiful work. I've always said the one of the best decisions I ever made when I put this book together was to not let the publisher choose the cover, and instead, I hired Redman for this gorgeous too. So talk to you. Um he's a production designer, uh, worked on the Chainsaw Awards, executive producer on The Jessica Cabin. Uh, wasn't that film like mentioned in like the New York Times or something?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah, the New York Times, NPR, Brendan.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

You should go listen to it.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Yeah. And he's one of the producers of The East Cider. So Brendan Haley, welcome, Brendan Haley. Like I said, my name is Sean Abley. I'm a contributor to Fangoria magazine. I created this book and I created the first blog that dealt uh solely with LGBTQ filmmakers working in horror called Gay of the Dead, which is now also my Patreon, Gay of the Dead. So thank you all for being here. Thank you folks for being here. There's a reason why I use the same people every time I've put together a panel, uh, because I just love talking with you all. So let's just start. First of all, I've sort of explained why I put this panel together. I think it's really important that we we keep films in rotation. I personally believe, well, I'm almost 60 years old. Thank you for being shocked that I don't look that old. Um and I have sort of run out of my anger at old films. I can't be mad at old films anymore. I'd rather just sort of study them and acknowledge where they fall short rather than just like you know keep the higher fire burning. Not everybody agrees with me. So I would love to hear, and I'll just start with you, Brendan. We'll just work our way down. Why is it important why did you take this invitation today to be on the panel? I'm assuming it was because you feel this is an important way to look at film, and I'd love to know why.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Well, I would like to start by saying that I'm straight and uh I don't know why I'm here. Um No, I it's funny, I feel like I I I I came across a piece of um uh poetry written by uh a queer colleague of Michael and and and mine's uh recently, uh Leo Herrera, that says apologies if I if I'm butchering this, but uh I think it was to the effect of queer culture is backbone, not garnished. And more often than not, I feel like working in the industry and enjoying the industry and being a nerd of the industry and watching films and television and entertainment, our representation is so frequently garnished and and and stereotyped. And so I am a big fan of speaking out against that and you know supporting your local queer film festivals and independent film. Uh that's that's sort of why I'm here today.

SPEAKER_05 6:55

Yeah, that's interesting. We are usually the side dish. And it's sort of changing lately. There's some filmmakers that are sort of putting us front and center, and there's you know the super low budget end where we are the main course. But yeah, if we if we keep tossing the garnish away, uh, you know, where are we, basically? So that's interesting. Thank you. Michael, what about you? What do you where you land on this?

SPEAKER_04 7:17

Well, when you specifically asked us about talking about forgiving what we consider to be problematic films, it's something we talk about a lot on Midnight Mass, because Peaches and I explore cult films. And cult films often deal with the subversive. And we say that pretty much every movie we cover on our show carries a trigger warning because for something to be subversive, it's upsetting to somebody. That's just the truth. It's it exists outside of society's uh mores or the mainstream normalcy that people want from a movie. And sometimes that that means acceptable things and sometimes it doesn't, but often context matters. And it's so easy to disregard something because it's challenging or unusual or problematic while also cutting out the conversation of why that existed when it did. And that's why I think these conversations are important, because I can look at something, especially queer representation in the past, and know that it's not great, but it also was a fundamental building block to get us where we are. We've talked many times about Disney villains, most of whom read as queer. And the inference in all of those movies is that flamboyance and outsider-ness is bad, but how many audience members attach themselves to those characters? It was the first time we saw ourselves in a lot of ways. I would rather be Ursula than Ariel. And she's problematic, but she's a queen bitch, and I want to be that. I don't want to be told.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

Screw Triton. I think we got sort of dealt a lousy hand in that, you know, if you've seen Celluloid Closet or there's another trans documentary that came out recently that I thought was really good. It's obvious, yes, we suffered on cinema, you know, lousy representation over and over again. But I remember as a kid, horror fan, who knew he was gay and had no problem with that. I wanted to play the villain. But I also wanted to play me, so I wanted to play a gay villain. And we were just taught that that was like wrong to aspire to because it was the villain. I think now as adults, we can look back on that and be like, no, that would be a fun role. Ursula would be super fun. Like Ursula's like in charge of her life. Um, so I think that's another sort of building block is like why we sort of pull these films forward, if that makes sense. William, what about you? What were where you led on?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Oh, exactly that. Michael's still my answer. Um I it it's it's definitely about reclamation of power for me. Um I've always, like you guys said, um, have seen myself as the villain, as the monster, because that's how society sees me, but they see it negatively where I see it positively. I take the power that they give me that they find to be negative and use that against them. And it's like, if you want me to be the villain, I'll be the villain and you're gonna hate it.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

Yeah, I think the interesting thing to that point, like, if you're gonna make me a villain in your horror movie, that means you think I have power over you. Like I could destroy you. So that's sort of a weird backhanded compliment in a way. I mean, that's I'm I'm stretching to like be kind to that point of view, but it really it's funny. I'm literally coming to that thought just as you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

It's because they're obsessed with us. Am I the villain? Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

I I said this on another panel before, that um I'm not really the biggest fan of HP Lovecraft, but I do find his work interesting in that he's a very xenophobic person in real life. But the things that he's writing about being scared of in his stories are these gods. So that makes me the god that he's afraid of.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Fascinating. Thank you for that. Wow. I literally had not come at it from that angle. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yes, the fear, fearing God, yes. Your voices. Um I do love the villains. Um, I think it's really important. I'm a big history nerd, and I think that cinema is history, and I think that these old films, or even new ones, some of them also miss the mark, um, are still creating these problematic things. There's something to be said for why they're made. I think it's important to still have an active mind while you watch them, not just you know, take them in just as they are, but to have a question. As a student, as a scholar, that's what we do. We we look at these movies and we see why they are. We can look at the context, we can look at the year. It gives us actually, I think, a better barometer when people say that they're when people right now trying to erase history as if if it were, want to erase the good and the bad. And I think if you erase all the takes of it, then you are missing part of the conversation, right? So if we can watch an older film and see how you know someone like myself was treated, I can go, like, yeah, there's proof right there. It's in cinema, you know, that someone had this opinion. So this opinion does exist. So if you say that that opinion doesn't exist anymore, that we solved racism or we solved, you know, sexism, we solved all the isms, I can show you in cinema that it's not true immediately. So I think if you take away these problematic things, I think you're taking away the view on the problem, which I think is a step that we also need to acknowledge that there is a problem. So maybe we need to get people there to start acknowledging which films are problematic, because I think there's still some people who think that birth of a nation's okay, you know, and it's true. You laugh, you laugh at that. But I've watched all those AFI 100 movies. I went down the rabbit hole, I've seen them all. Um, you know, the good, the bad, and that's on there still. And you're like, wow, this is still part of the lexicon, and we're still dealing with this problem a hundred years later.

SPEAKER_05 12:58

It's interesting because you know, so often these panels are specifically about queer stuff. And my contention is always that art remains, and I'm sure all of you have heard me say this on other panels, but art remains, right? Like when civilizations, you know, die out, regimes fall, you know, buildings crumble, but like we're still reading texts from the ancient Greeks. We have pictures of cave walls with art on them. You know, Shakespeare was hundreds of years ago. I think The Wizard of Oz is a hundred years old, the book now. Like, art is there and it is our history. So it's important that in even if it's poor representation, we need to be able to point to it and prove that we were poorly treated. And so if we're putting films in film jail, if we're taking them out of you know rotation, if we are, you know, censoring them, I hate to use the word cancel, but if we're just like pushing them away because we don't like what's in them, what we're doing is removing our um receipts. Like you said, when we're pointing to like, no, no, no, no, it's all it's it's been this way, like just like the thing about Michael, you've said this often, you know, in horror, we've always been in horror, right? Yeah, and we can point to that because it exists.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

I always say that queer horror in a way is almost an oxymoron, or it's a redundancy, because horror inherently is a genre of otherness. And so it is queer in many ways by definition. What I think is interesting, Terry, you know, you bring up Birth of a Nation and these movies that continue in the larger zeitgeist to kind of just get overlooked. What's really interesting is a panel today, the people who attend this panel, we're doing the conversation about the movies that we need to have. Like we as queer people can look at basic instinct when it comes out and know that it was not great representation, but kind of reclaim it for camp. We're having the conversation, marginalized people are having the conversation, but there are mainstream movies that the mainstream is still looking at and they're not acknowledging as problematic, and that's the world outside. John Hughes movies are way more problematic in their representations of race and sexual politics than half of the shit we're gonna talk about up here.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Everyone wants to cancel weird science, and the politics of that, the sexual politics of that movie are far more progressive than the race politics rather than the race politics. Yeah, race politics are kind of terrible across the board. But that's it. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

Thank goodness for Molly Ringwald, you know, becoming an adult and like writing truthfully about her experience with John Hughes. And I, you know, I'd completely forgotten there's a shot in that movie where from under a table where someone's looking up her dress, yeah, she's a teenager in that film. And John Hughes thought that was okay and thought it was okay to put her through that. So um, yeah, it's it's interesting that that that that that shit gets a pass. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Well, yeah, I think the issue is that people still want to celebrate these movies and kind of like in a not not in a thinking of celebration as in like um like gone with the wind or something like that. So I keep thinking about all these old slave movies. I guess they're on my mind right now. Oh yay. Um I don't know, seem pertinent at the moment, but like there is something about people who like make this like they make joy about it as like they um look to those as examples of how they want things to be, unfortunately. And that's where I think the problem, we have to interrupt that and like actually contend with like, yes, you can appreciate the art of it, the artistry of the cinematography, the cost of whatever, but we need to talk about the content of it and what that really does mean to culture, and for those who want to use it as uh I don't know, cheerleader or cheerleader in a cheerleader way versus people who want to look at it in a really constructive and scholarly way.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Yeah, there's a difference between a movie being aspirational that has shitty elements and a movie that you enjoy despite the shitty elements, right? And I think as queer people, we are constantly being fed poison by the genre that we love. So we have to learn how to like navigate around that. And that's different than saying it's okay that we're treated that way. Um, but finding joy in like Donald and Eyes of Laura Mars, like he dies, he's treated sort of poorly, but like he has a job and he's a friend, and he's a hero in that film. You know, like finding the way that we can sort of reclaim people and characters, I think is important in this day. I I would I didn't plan on doing this, but this has all just come down within like the last week. So I wanted to throw this out there. Rocky Horror Picture Show is celebrating an anniversary, and to my, and I this is not hyperbole, to my like astonishment, there is discourse about how this movie is harmful. And I'm sure you folks have heard this. Uh it it is incomprehensible to me that that that Rocky Horror is being seen as as not passing muster in this day and age. But uh I I want to throw it to you folks. I want you guys to be the smart people about it before I super weigh in. Does anybody I does anybody have any thoughts on Rocky Horror?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And the current.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

Well, yeah, I've I've spoken about Rocky Horror a great deal uh over the years, and especially in light of the 50th. And I do understand from the then lens and the now lens, there are things in that movie that are problematic. The consent issue with Brad and Janet, it is an issue. I can understand why people would be bumped by that, and rightfully so. But I think that what is lost in the modern audience in a post-COVID era where the movie theater is no longer the space, is that for the longest time Rocky horror was all we had. And that's where context matters. Back when this movie came out and it became a gathering place for queer people, for punks, for goths, for anyone who felt othered, for anybody who didn't feel like they belonged, for theater kids who just wanted to get weird but were treated like outsider in their small town. If you didn't live in a coastal city that had a thriving queer scene, or a gay bar, or you were afraid to go to a gay bar because people would know what that meant if you were there. Rocky horror was a place that so many people found their community first and they found each other. And it was this sheer accident that this movie provided that space. But it became something that's so much more crucial than the fact that it's camp and that Frankenfer is sexually deviant. And the movie tells you he's sexually deviant. If you read the text, you're not supposed to be like, this is who I want to be, although it's so hot. But that's it. I mean, it is. The context matters, but also the context within the movie matters, but the context of the phenomenon matters, I think, more. And that's my my take on it.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

I couldn't uh absolutely no, I agree with you, Michael, on all of that. And I think um I think part of the conversation too is now we have a di uh difficulty with the creator versus the art situation, too, because of Richard O'Brien's turfiness and uh issues in that in that vein. I think that's why people have are also contending with that now, too. And I think it's one of these pieces of art where because it's been around for 50 years as well, and we've grown with up with it literally. I think um that we have to ask ourselves those questions as things go on. But as he even says, like I have to watch the documentary if you haven't seen it yet. It's called Strange Journey, the Rocky Horror documentary that his son Linus O'Brien did. It's absolutely incredible. I cried for like two hours, just feeling like, oh, I understand why now I was obsessed as a you know as a young person with this movie. Um, Richard O'Brien even says, because people ask, What do you think about this film? And he says, It's not mine anymore. Because he understands that the community took it and we use it for our own purposes now, you know what I mean? Like we've made our own liturgy. We're depending on where you are in the world, you have your own way you interact with it, the words you say with it, you know, the call-outs you have, the things that you've made with your friends, you know, the characters that you've gone on to. So I think we own it now, and I think that's part of like the conversation we're having now, too, is like they gave us this piece of art, but even though this is a static thing, it actually does live within us, and we've created different interactions with it around the world. So it's actually a living piece of cinema now. And so I think that's part of the thing that we can look at. And so I think for kids who didn't get to have that, because these kids, right now, though we're very young, went through COVID and couldn't even go to the freaking cinema to go see it and have that experience, they don't have the same conversation that we had of going into the new art at you know, you know, midnight show while you're at UCLA like I did. Do you know what I mean? They don't like have that epiphany with yourself.

SPEAKER_05 21:27

I think also it's we have to remember Dr. Frankenfurt is the villain, right? So, in this in the sort of you know, context of like consent and things like that, he gets his in the end. You know, a villain has to do villainous things. And I think at times we forget or just willfully ignore the fact that these are characters in a movie, they're not human, real human beings. Brad is Brad is not a real person who was forced to have sex with Dr. Frankenfurter. It's part of a plot to show the villainy of a character. And we've sort of entered an era of of if it's if I see it it can be negative to me regardless of the context. But that's that's not the context in which the film was made. And I so I don't know it's a tough it's a tough one everybody has their own sort of line in the sand, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

I always kind of view Rocky horror specifically and in this context more of a conduit to queerness and you know open opening doors to so many other things, whereas like the film itself is a pocket moment. That's a queer representation at that time. And so like I think if you are dismissing that entire context you're only getting half of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah I think Frank and Furter is also more complex than people want to give credit for. Because this this character isn't a villain doing these horrible things but is also the representation of don't drink it beer. And that's the inspiring part that you can take from it. I mean you can like a character and not like every single thing that he does or that the character does but you can take this is the reclamation reclamation of power you take what you want from it. It's um just like uh J.K. Rowling with Harry Potter, there are lots of people who found themselves in those books. I'm not a big fan of Harry Potter books but there are a lot of people who are and they find themselves in those books um and I don't like J.K. Rowling for her turfiness but those books do for you what they did for you. And you don't you can not like J.K. Rowling and still be inspired in the way that it inspired you.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

But those artists also revealed themselves a lot in those books more than they probably realized they did. Like most artists do you reveal yourself in your art and Richard through life later he's like oh yeah I'm a grass dresser. Like he like didn't talk about it while he was making the thing and didn't realize so later in life that that was like actually why he made that piece of art. So even he's still having a conversation I think with that and what that meant for him and continuing to find himself too so I feel like that's also part of the thing that's like I know some people get upset like why didn't this person who make this thing they're not actually queer and they made this thing I'm like please you don't know where they are in the continuum exactly on their journey who they really are who they're discovering while they're making this thing as well so lots to think about with I think there's you know one of the aspects of how we watch these movies is you can't take away from someone else something that's imprinted on them.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

Right? Like I'm not going to go to the mad for JK Rowling I she will not get another dime of my money and she could be swallowed by the earth today and I would jump for joy. But there are people that read that first book when they were 10 years old well before we knew that she was a monster and now that is part of them right so you know we can hope for them that they can understand that like the person who created this, you know, it's a separation of the art and the artist, right? And that's everybody has their own personal line in the sand I'm not defending her. But you know Rocky Horror for me was you know I grew up in Helena Montana it was literally the the gay representation I ever saw first I ever saw and it just sort of opened the door for me. So I think we we even something as silly as a slasher movie from the 80s I think can have that value as well among other things. So we've talked about that but I now I want to get to the movies that my panel has chosen to talk about today uh and I'm gonna start at the other end Terry um what did what did you because I asked them all to pick a movie that might be hard to defend and then defend it to all of you.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Oh my God I love this you said pick a debate debate team yeah um that's right so uh so what what did you pick? Um I wanted to talk about Abby it's from 1974 some black exploitation baby but also not black exploitation but black exploitation but not and also heavily maligned because people said it was a broken copy you know of The Exorcist which I believe it is not and I have defended on a couple different occasions and will continue to defend that it's not um it's an incredible film. It is a about um a woman who is actually brought in this weird triangle of heaven and hell and gods and monsters and things I'm contending with um she's a sweet woman who's trying to do good things in our community and um her husband you know um is a loving husband and they work in their church but you know what some ancient gods are gonna meddle with their lives. As they do, you know um and wanting to mess up with things and so she has to deal with um an ancient God trying to um you know possess her. Oops um but it also gives her I know oops sometimes you get possessed right um and so she ends up going out and doing some terrible things while also still trying to do good things in the midst of it. And I think there's something about um a woman being able to what it means to fight for agency when all these different guys are circling around you who might have different ideas of what you should be, um what heaven and hell means and all that kind of stuff as well too so I think that she's an amazing human who just happens to be a little possessed.

unknown 27:14

A little bit.

SPEAKER_05 27:15

Besides the fact that it was you know an exorcist skew what can you point to in the film that might not be you know A plus as far as representation or just how characters are cheated or okay sorry Jesus Jesus you're dealing with a lot of Jesus um you're dealing with you're dealing with um what the church thinks is proper you're thinking dealing with what society thinks is proper and right you're dealing with um you know um a black family in a nice little neighborhood you're dealing with you know um what society thinks that should be as well too um and um yeah and sexuality um you know who should who who gets to be sexy who doesn't get to be sexy um you're dealing with all of those all the good isms in the world I I have a question about the term black exploitation yes please do we like it do we embrace it do we think it's a regrettable you know turn of phrase but we've come to the point where we're we're okay with it I'm not anti I think it's gives lets me know what videos I need to go rent like if they're like honestly helpful.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Sorry I embrace it um I think that you know there's again like you talked about with different eras of cinema I was excited that there's so much there is so much that I feel like got buried and I love that it's kind of you know we're unearthing those those things now as we excavate cinema um and finding amazing performances. And again like I said the the ribbing of it saying that it's an exorcist like ripoff versus like no given the circumstances that we had and the access to different things this is actually incredible that this film actually got made do you know what I mean when it's done um because filmmaking is hard. I don't know if any of you out there are filmmakers out there too but it's a difficult task to go out there and get financing and get it done and get filmed and especially before we could make things on our phones you had to go you know find somebody to actually fund this thing and the fact that there's a whole genre of film that was made predominantly starring and a lot of times predominantly you know um you know supporting folks around it too were black and so I think that that is huge. And I think that that should be celebrated. I don't think it's a terrible thing. I think um there are some of those movies too that you know maybe the not might not be the most comfortable to watch but I still think there's something of value there and absolutely some amazing um performances you're gonna get in that film too.

SPEAKER_05 29:41

Also sidebar when uh first of all capitalism is murder that's my line but when capitalism figures out they can exploit you for money there's actually a certain power to that right and so when you know the the predominantly white uh Hollywood figured out that there was money in the black community um I don't want to say that's a positive thing but it's an interesting thing to note in the sense that now those those people had to figure out how to make that happen for themselves. So William Yes about about black exploitation or about or the movie that you chose which I know is uh I is gonna be an interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah um when I do love black exploitation by the way I just I have to say that um uh when you asked this question I had already been thinking about um a movie in particular because my partner and I watched it again I after not seeing it for a long time we revisited it and I was like oh it's actually not as bad as I remember I mean there are there's just bad anyway it's Silence of the Lands which is a very pertinent movie always with this topic um seen as probably one of the most problematic is um representations of a type of queer person. So um but for me re-watching it um I was taken aback by how um the movie actually tries to point out that this character is not really trans um in the way that we think of of trans people this is a character who is more um psychotic and reacting from this psychoses that has nothing to do with transness. I mean Hannibal Lecter even says who's you know by far the smartest person in the movie even says I don't think that this is a trans character, that this is a trans person. And then we have a discussion with Clarice and someone else I can't remember exactly who they talk about this is not typical for for the trans experience. Not in those words but that's a conversation in the movie. So here we have the director who's exploring this type of character and trying to tell you that that's not who this character is but that's all anyone anyone ever talks about with this movie at this point. So it kind of I was kind of taken aback and I was like I I kind of see this from a perspective that is actually not trans. And um it's not a one of the few villains that I'm not really a big fan of it's not a villain that I enjoy but I love the movie as a whole and I was just perplexed at the idea of like it kind of mimics what's happening right now in politics where it's like we have truthsayers we have scientists we have people of the experience telling you who they are and what their experience is about but the masses at large just want to hear the right wing rhetoric and it's like no we're we're saying this particular thing but you just see the negative that's all you remember about it. So I just found it interesting.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

How do we and maybe it's not even our place to do this but how do we make that better known if that makes sense like right now Sleepaway camp because of you know our colleagues DJ and Harmony Colangelo who wrote this really amazing book about the film and Harmony is trans. And it goes to the mat for that movie and one of the key points is the fact that it's not transgender in the way we think of that strictly it's forced feminization which is is actually different. It's still sort of in the broader category of things that are trans or trans adjacent but it is technically not transgender. I you know forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn. And and it sounds like that's what you're saying about this film as well is that it's technically not you know a trans experience but because there's so little trans experience on the screen it it's one of those things that like well we're gonna we're gonna grab this because it's close enough but it's also unfortunately not great. So how do we in the sort of discourse of this film make that better known would you think I know that's a big question. How are you going to do that?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I mean just uh I think these conversations are the important place to start is to talk about these things. And also of course this is a a a trans experience we're talking about so I'm not trans. I think the most important voices to talk about trans people are trans people. So there's also that I don't I don't know where to go with that.

SPEAKER_05 34:42

What are the positives about the movie? Like we're here to defend these films so there's also other stuff that's because I think it's actually a well made movie you know just in general so so what are the what are the parts that you would like point to like this this is great. Like my first would be like Jodie Foster's uh performance I think is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Like what are other things that you could think of well just about everyone's performance is amazing and the cinematography is amazing the music is amazing. I mean all of the filmmaking aspects are amazing there's just this really just one blight that that fucks it all up.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

I wonder if instead of saying that we need to sort of spread the word for andor to trans people maybe we need to spread the word toward non-trans people so that when they watch this film they're not equating it with the trans experience right like they're not thinking that that person is trans and then getting a negative impression of trans people. Does that land yeah that's that's just remind everybody we all contain multitudes.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Like I don't know I feel like and it's absolutely that to to talk to uh other people about that because I I would never dare tell a trans person what to think about this story. Michael, what do you got for us?

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Well the film I have for us is a 2004 slasher movie uh called Hellbent and if you're familiar with Hellbent it was made by a gay filmmaker and it is about a group of gay boys who go out on Halloween night and get attacked by a mass slasher. Sean recently wrote an anniversary article about it in fang on Fangoria.com. Sure did you can look it up after this inherently it is not problematic in presentation because it uh immediately defeats the notion of the barrier gay stereotype which if you don't know is the stereotype of killing queer characters uh and that's there's they sacrifice their lives for the betterment of heterosexuality that goes out the window because everybody and it's queer in the movie. But the conversation that tends to come up in controversy in the wake of the film including when I shared the article that Sean wrote because I love this movie is a lot of people afterwards were saying wait isn't this that movie where all of the gay characters were played by straight people? And yes, that's true. But again context matters. In 2003 when they were making this movie Paul Etheridge who made the film could not get any gay actors to audition for the role because they were afraid that if they committed to this it would be a career ending experience. And thus he was put into the position that he had to hire straight actors as far as we know because to Terry's point earlier you don't know what someone's journey on the spectrum of their queer queerness and their queer experiences and maybe that was someone's ability to kind of put their foot in the water to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

But I see this come up so that was the early 2000s Michael when everyone was gay but no one was out just FYI. That's true. It was the Puka Shell necklaces another stereotype yeah I saw that Lance Bass poster um that just dated everybody I remember that era very well my hair just goes gray on this panel.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

But that's it the the thing about that movie is I think it's actually a great entry in the queer horror canon but when it gets brought up the controversy is that because it is a longstanding conversation about the making of LGBTQIA art like how come we are not having more out people in these roles and it is a valid conversation and representation matters and having uh people who authentically have those experiences portray their roles because those roles are so few and far between and the opportunities are so few and far between is important. But when you're looking at a movie from then and upset about that and don't take into account this is the situation, I mean I'm glad that movie exists. But if they had waited it wouldn't have existed at all.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Yeah so the thing Michael didn't mention is I worked on that movie and got fired off of it. But I worked on that movie it was shot in three chunks uh there was like a a fall chunk a winter chunk and a spring chunk and I worked on the first two chunks and then they didn't bring me back. Probably for the best. But I can tell you from a what it what the straight actors did do was prevent the filmmaker from going as far as he would have liked to have gone with their interactions. The movie becomes about the two main characters kissing and they only do it at the very end of the film. You know there's there's no physical affection there was an actor that was supposed to be running around in um a jock strap and chaps and instead he's wearing like a jock strap over a pair of jeans. So you know it will it was it was cramping the filmmaker style to a certain extent. But it was the first gay slasher made by a gay person with gay characters and all that stuff that got an actual legitimate theatrical release. So that's also another in the plus column like we're talking about the good that a film does that was that was good.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

No and I think the things that you're talking about still speak to the fear of the time it was made. They couldn't cast the out gay actors that they wanted and of course even the straight actors were thinking about well if I do this am I going to be on all my children next year you know all of that I also think the stuff that they they prohibited makes the movie funnier unintentionally of the aforementioned jackstrap over jeans because when have you ever um never never never ever uh but you know that's it it's it's it's the lens of time. I don't think it's perfect but I remember when it came out and it's like oh there's a gay slasher and they're filming in West Hollywood and that's amazing. Like you know we had waited we'd been told every slasher was secretly gay well here's one that was so you know so one of those actors was dating Melissa John Hart at the time there's a little scoop for him.

SPEAKER_05 40:43

I won't tell you which one but he would literally come to set from her house.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Brendan what do you have for us? Oh gosh uh you know I was racking my brain trying to figure out how best to tackle this topic because in the current climate of the world in America queer movies and what we are talking about and why we are all here is already considered problematic and it always has been but I would argue never more so than now. It is sort of prevalent to champion these movies. But that being said, pulling it back to Michael's comment context matters on the past yeah uh I am a gay man and uh not a trans person but the movie that I would like to talk about is Myra Breckenridge because this is one of the most challenging movies I've ever seen. I will not comment on the transgendered politics or you know commentary of the film because it it basically if you're not familiar this movie is about uh the Myra Breckenridge who goes to Europe and has a sex change in the start of the film comes back to Hollywood uh there's shenanigans with Mae West uh and and basically the entire movie is about her kind of revenge killing and reconstructing the Hollywood system and the the morals of the system like that. But what I find interesting about it is the revenge of it all because we we talk a lot in pop culture about uh niches of the industry like rape revenge and that's also you know it's its own wealth of movies and context but as queer people we for the time that this movie was made we don't have anything quite like this. Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:32

Well it's interesting because for those of you who haven't watched this movie uh the film tells us asks us to believe that Rex Reed critic Rex Reed could be have uh gender affirming surgery to look like Raquel Welch who plays Myra Rex Reed plays Myron and best surgeon I mean that is some money well spent uh Raquel Welch is super sexy in the movie she it's one of the best things I acting performances I think she's ever given quite frankly but yeah there's costumes are incredible. Yeah yes and the way she's shot is amazing. The there's a scene you're talking about where she gets revenge on is it a cowboy guy and she puts a strap on on and she she sex she pegs him basically sex.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Fair warning there's a fair bit of sexual assault in the movie that um actually kind of uh considering the our conversation on Rocky horror and Frankenfurter earlier there is a similar dynamic between Myra and Frankenfurter not that necessarily the sexual assault but like they believe that they are doing the good work. They believe that they are doing something that will change the world and champion their who they are and bring it out into the open their methods might be a little maligned again I think it's the context of the time.

SPEAKER_05 43:50

Again we're we're we're we're we're defending these movies. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

I think it's campy and fun and and I'm willing to I will say that I want

SPEAKER_06 44:02

We did.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

And I listened to your episode. I was like, I gotta watch this freaking this sounds insane. Um, it is. Um, but it's it was worth the watch. I'm glad I watched it, but I full caveat, it is a tough one.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

I will say, in uh how we present every episode, we always say, and this week we're celebrating. Yeah, uh, it's the only episode in 116 episodes that I said, and this week we're tackling Myra Breckenridge. So that tells you the context. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Like I talked about as someone who loves cinema and loves cinema history and likes learning from the things, and also it's freaking Rock Hell Welsh. I was like, a Rock Hell Welsh move I haven't seen, and I was like, This is why it's not on TV all the time. I had to go, I rented it. Like I went to the video store, you know, to go get the DVD of it. And um it's intense. It's it was tough. It was a tough one. But because I rented it, I made sure I finished it.

SPEAKER_05 44:50

So I I'm sitting, I'm trying because I had a whole list of films that I wanted to talk about, and this one just popped into my head. So I forgive me for not being super prepared for this one, but but your film brought this up, and it's a movie that I a lot of people really love, but under even the the slightest scrutiny just falls apart. And my my my apologies for not preparing you, but Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. That was the other one I Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. How do we love this movie? It is, I mean, there is not a terrible stone unturned in this film. For those that don't know it, you know, it's it's it's a a somewhat in name only sequel to Valley of the Dolls, written by Roger Ebert and directed by Russ Meyer. If you know Russ Meyer's oeuvre, you know it's, you know, there's lesbianism and and women with lots of big boobs. Lots of big boobs, hot lesbian action that's filmed through the male gays, and yet this gay guy who's like a Kinsey 5.9 is, you know, like that.01 is left for Erica Gavin in this movie. Um yeah, but there's, you know, there's a scene where a lesbi a lesbian phillates a gun in her sleep. She doesn't realize it's a gun being put in her mouth, and then the trigger's pulled. Yeah. Well, yeah. The the thing about the movie, if you haven't seen it, is every terrible scene is in a supercut over under the opening credits. And then you watch the film and you all these things come out. Um, yeah, it is just, you know, there's a trans character in there that that if you think about it couldn't really be because they established that this person is not earlier.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Um it's also the the twist of the movie, which I think is the problem, uh, among a few other things, but you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

I think crucial though, to be on the valley of the dolls. Interestingly, it was shot at the same time by the same studio that did Myra Breckenridge. Those films were shooting simultaneously, and both have like trans panic situations, both feature prominent critics of the time. Uh, it's really an interesting, just kind of like moment.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Uh now I want to do a deep dive on these people who made it now, because that's probably where the story's at, right? If that's what we're looking at.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Yeah, it's funny though, because I think that Russ Meyer, like on the outset, looks like the most problematic, and he's not. I think that Russ Meyer, like in the Mount Rushmore of cult filmmakers, like it's like John Waters, Herschel Gordon Lewis, Russ Meyer. And what's interesting about Russ Meyer is he's purient and he loves his big boobied lesbian action. But if you watch those movies, all of the women have agency in a way that the men don't. And it's really like if Faster Pussycat Kill Kill, those women are in charge, and the men are all buffoons.

SPEAKER_05 47:36

And that's true in every movie he makes. Well, I would say in every movie except for Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, which which Beyond the Valley of the Dolls almost seems like a self-parody of his own films. Because I agree, you know, there's all of his stuff is like powerful booby women, which, you know, I think it shows that you can film something through a male.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

I'm gonna get that tattoo. I'm sorry. Thank you. Powerful booby women.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

But still affirming, but this one is is I and I I I I'm again, I'm gonna defend it because I feel like the point of the film, because this one was written by Roger Ebert, not Russ Meyer or his typical cronies, was to be a parody of those films, and it was meant to be extreme in that moment. And I think again, if we remember these aren't real human beings that this is happening to, these are characters, and it's it's a plot to show the villainy of the, you know, the terrible Hollywood system, then it's easier for me anyway to get on board with like it's so well directed, it's like it's well edited, it's edited like a metronome. Like every scene just like goes by. It's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

But isn't it interesting that it's Russ Meyer's only studio picture? And it's the only picture that he made that had oversight from a studio system, and that's the one where there's a queer villain.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

Yeah. Well, it's like cruising, the other film I was gonna bring up, cruising was made for a big studio. You know, it was made to be in every theater in the country for people to see. You know, it was not meant to be an art house movie made by William Friedkin. And I can go to the Matt for that movie for hours. Like, you know, cruising is a very well-made movie, it's really well researched. All of those bar scenes are are true. Like they're all and sure, Al Pacino's character, you know, spirals into possible homicidal homosexuality. But, you know, under the direction of William Freakin, it's compelling.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

But also, what's wrong with spiraling into homosexuality?

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Zero. Right? Right? Sometimes we spiral in, sometimes no. There's different ways in. Um, these are like I love that these are all, I love that I didn't realize the through line though. I love that you're bringing this together of like the conversation with the Hollywood system itself, like the subverse, the subversive movies that made it out. This is why we get to talk about them, though. You know, I feel like there's probably other stuff that's like on the cutting room floor somewhere that we never got to see that was trying to actually be the things we wanted. Do you know what I mean? Though that got oh got too many notes, or got told to be different, or got told they had to reshoot, or got told they had to change the villain. You know what I mean? They're like, I feel like there's probably so much of that, um, which is why we're left with what we have today, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:13

I mean, the amount of times I am in pitch meetings, and I know Michael the same, like all of us actually on this panel, uh very recently there were two pitch meetings with studios that I had for an independent, queer movie, very queer context of a lot of what we're talking about here, where the conversation started good, and then as the executive started reading the scripts and talking about these, um getting a sense for, oh, this is a queer movie for queer audiences. That's not we we don't like that. This is not RuPaul, this is not something that is palatable to us.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Something queer for the other people to watch. Yeah, right. That are not, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:53

Intention to be considered as well. William Freakin wanted to make a good film. He wasn't looking to you know exploit us in a way that felt cheap and tawdry. Whereas um Interior Leather Bar, has anyone seen that film? Which putting it on a list though? Um uh uh James Franco made a film. Remember him? Uh oh, I'm not gonna watch that. James Franco made a film that was about a filmmaker recreating the sliver of gay pornography that was cut out of cruising. So if you've seen an uh seen a director's cut of cruising, there's like quick flashes of gay pornography used to sort of create mood and tension and all that stuff. And there's stuff that was cut out, and so James Franco's character as a director has decided he's gonna recreate that chunk of the film. And so he talks a straight actor into doing the gay sex scene. It's just and it it is it that is a filmmaker using us for toddry, weird, personal, selfish reasons, I think. Like I won't defend that movie, I won't put it in film jail, but it has I have less than zero interest in propping that movie up after having seen it. I don't know if any of you saw this film, but it was just like, don't. All right, we're almost out of time. I know I asked all of you to come up with a couple movies, so maybe we'll just do a speed round and go down the row and I'll start. And just, you know, give us the log line in the film that you'd like to defend, maybe give us why it's hard to defend, but also give us the reasons why it's easy to defend. The one that I'll pick is high tension, uh, if you haven't seen it, it's a it's a really taut uh thriller. Tense, the tension is high. Um, and the twist is it turns out to be a lesbian psycho um tormenting her girlfriend. And it came out at a time where we didn't want lesbian psychos tormenting their girlfriend with uh circular saws, etc. And so it got a lot of flack, and there's also some unreliable narrator in this film. It makes no sense, Sean. I love it. And I you're wrong.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

I think I may be wrong, but if it's all in her head who's driving the second car in the car chase. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yeah, see, that's all I'm asking. I'm here for the lesbian madness, but I'm not here for the who's driving the car.

SPEAKER_05 53:34

I can't I'm I'm not gonna go to bed for the continuity of the film. Um I just think it's a director with really high style. I think it's really smart in the way that the scenes play out. Um, I love the twist. I was just like cheering in the theater while all my friends were like, how rough. Um so I'll go to bat for high attention. Brendan, do you have something else to know?

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Oh gosh. Uh I am drawing a blank. I'm gonna pass it to you and I'm gonna come back.

SPEAKER_04 53:57

All right, great. Uh I just wrote an essay for a Blu-ray release of a movie from 1988 called Hide and Go Shriek, which is about a group of teenagers after they graduate from high school, they all decide to spend the night in a furniture store, as you do. Uh, and what they don't know is that they're in there with the night janitor whose lover has just escaped from prison and is dressed in dragon, killing them all. Um, it's a mess. And it's like, here's a cross-dressing killer and a prison husband situation, and I think it's fun. And it's not good representation.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

So a bit of lore. Uh, Michael was penned this very eloquent, very like robust, like fine dining dinner of a piece about the movie.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Which I make it sound like a criteria.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

You do. At the end of the day, it feels like McDonald's meal that was like wrapped up in I don't know. The McDLT. It was the McDLT.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Yeah. I'll say you mentioned that in the email, and so Dave and I went to watch it because I hadn't seen it, and I loved it. I mean, it's not the most amazing film, but it was a lot of fun. And just like Steepleway Camp, it's one of those movies where the twist at the end is what makes you like it.

unknown 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

It's it's like, oh, now I'm with you. This whole time I was like, yeah, maybe. But then the twist is like, okay, I'm on board. Um, another problematic film for me. First, I'll say, like, you and I, Sean and I, uh for Fangoria talked about Candyman in this exact context a long time ago. That is still online, so you should go watch it. I wore this shirt. I mean, you should go read it, but I wore this shirt in celebration of that. But another movie I will say um racially problematic is uh Skeleton Key Kate Hudson. Um where she uh plays a woman who's investigating. I forget exactly what she's investigating, but she ends up in New Orleans.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

She goes to the caretaker we just covered recently on the survival guide. Oh god. She goes to, yes, she's a caretaker in New Orleans. In New Orleans, just outside of the city. And she uh swamp Ayou.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

There's a lot of black tropes in it, um, a lot of stereotypes that aren't great. But um I'm gonna spoil it.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Um, well, I will say that if you've seen the movie Get Out, um, you know, it's similar, um uh they're treading similar things from very different uh directions. We'll say that.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

So the whole time I'm watching it, I'm like, what is Kate Hudson, this white woman, doing here? Like, why is she here? And by the end of the movie, you're like, oh, okay, I'm I'm for it now. So I'm I'm in defense of that one.

SPEAKER_05 56:37

We're obviously about to start another panel. Terry, you got one in like two sentences or less.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

I'll be here with William and say, yeah, Skeleton Key as well. That was one of the ones that we I think you talked about. I was like, oh yeah, terrible. Also dress to kill, um, also an incredible performance, and Keith Board is amazing in it, and I love it. And yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

My final thing is find more reasons to love a film than you find to hate a film. I really think that is the key to not cut yourself off from art just because parts of it aren't great. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 57:09

Thank you.