Uncomfortable Grace
Through Uncomfortable Grace, I create space for honest, Spirit-led conversations that challenge the Church to return to truth, unity, and holiness. Each episode confronts the hard stuff... sin, division, lukewarm faith and invites listeners into deeper surrender, practical discipleship, and a revived relationship with Jesus. This isn’t about surface-level inspiration... it’s about transformation.
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Uncomfortable Grace
Spiritual Pornography: The Cost of True Intimacy with God (Special Guest Phill Tague)
What happens when we treat our relationship with God like spiritual pornography- wanting all the feelings of intimacy without the cost of covenant? Phill Tague joins us to discuss this provocative concept from his new book, challenging believers to move beyond an airbrushed Christianity toward authentic faith.
Phill's personal journey through legalism, rebellion, and surrender- including a near-fatal 60-foot fall that transformed his approach to ministry- illustrates the profound difference between controlling our faith and surrendering to it. He explains how our desire for control creates a shallow substitute for true intimacy with God, leaving us spiritually malnourished despite appearances of religious devotion.
The conversation explores how churches often compromise biblical truth to maintain attendance, creating generations of Christians who question God when life doesn't match their expectations. Phill offers a compelling diagnosis of why many believers feel something missing in their faith and why the next generation increasingly abandons Christianity altogether. The issue isn't with Jesus, but with the watered-down version we've created to suit our preferences.
For anyone feeling their faith lacks depth or power, Phill provides practical steps toward covenant relationship, daily surrender, immersion in scripture, authentic community, and the courage to count the cost of following Jesus. This isn't about perfection but persistent reorientation toward Christ. As Phill reminds us, "If you're not dead, God's not done." The path to authentic faith begins with letting go of control and embracing the uncomfortable grace that transforms us.
Hello and welcome back to Uncomfortable Grace, where truth and mercy collide. I'm Cody, and today we're going to talk about something edgy and maybe even offensive at first Spiritual pornography. That's a phrase my guest today uses in his book, and it's not clickbait, it's true. Too many Christians are chasing a cheap substitute for intimacy with God. Substitute for intimacy with God. It looks good, it feels good for a moment, but it never cost anything. It's airbrushed Christianity, it's control without covenant. My guess is live this tension. He grew up under legal legalism, wandered into rebellion, had a life altering accident and now he's calling people out of the shadow, the out of the shallow faith, and into a true covenant relationship with Jesus. His story and his book are about wrestling with. So if you've ever felt like your faith is lacking, or if you've wondered if there's more to following Jesus than singing songs and checking boxes, well, buckle up. This conversation is going to push you quite a bit, so I'll allow for you to introduce yourself. Phil. This is my guest. Take it away, phil.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my name is Phil Tagg. I'm a Wesleyan pastor. I've been in the ministry for over 20 years close to 25 years married with three kids two college-age kids and then a 10-year-old adopted son named Tucker. We'd been doing ministry for a lot of years. In 2009, my wife and I planted Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, south Dakota, and I've been pastoring that ever since and yeah, that was kind of my focus and my plan. Writing a book was never in the plan until the Holy Spirit started nudging me around this conversation that you've kind of just introduced, and so I added author to that kind of checklist of things God called me to do and just stepped faithfully into that and excited to be here with you to talk about it today.
Speaker 1:So let's start here. Your book came out of wrestling with the Holy Spirit, as I understand it anyways. So what were you wrestling with, if you don't mind us asking, and what was the Spirit pressing on you? You didn't want to surrender.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. So my whole life has sort of been a wrestling match. I don't want to call myself stubborn, but maybe some of you listening can relate to, you know, that idea of I want what the Holy Spirit wants, but I kind of want it on my terms. And so all through life, whether it was just my followership of Jesus, my call to the ministry, my call to plant a church, it's always been sort of this. You know, I've always had to wrestle a little bit. First, I've always had to understand why, and instead of, you know, I'm learning a lot in life about just what it means to step faithfully into the next. And so when it came to the writing of this book, it was the same thing. You know, just why do you want me to write a book? Why would I do that? What would be the purpose? I'm not, you know, I'm not big into pastor. You know, celebrity pastor, you know stuff, and I don't want that, the accolades of it. But I always want to be faithful and obedient.
Speaker 2:But the Holy Spirit began to nudge me to to essentially tell the story. And as I wrestled with man, what would? What would I even write a book about? It was like the Holy Spirit gave me the outline for this entire book, which really was kind of a culmination of so many parts of my life and my calling and my story of journey, and it has become sort of a passion area for me, which is this idea of counting the cost and going all in in your faith. It's just something that I've been really, really passionate about as a pastor, as a Wesleyan holiness pastor. It's in my DNA and it's something I've been seeking my whole life, and so that was sort of that wrestling match.
Speaker 2:I distinctly remember telling the Holy Spirit no, I'm not going to write a book, that's not something I'm going to do. And the day that I said no, five minutes after I said no, I'm not doing it, I got a call or a text, rather, from someone in my church that said, hey, I don not doing it. I got a call or a text, rather, from someone in my church that said, hey, I don't really usually do this, but I was praying and the Holy Spirit led me to ask you if you're writing a book and I thought, well, that's crazy. And four or five different times that day I would get a phone call, I would get an email, I would get a text where somebody was just saying are you writing a book, are you supposed to be writing a book? And I just still was wrestling.
Speaker 2:I went to sleep that night. I woke up the next morning and I was doing my Spanish lesson on Duolingo. I do a Duolingo lesson every day and the lesson literally said translate these sentences Are we writing a book together? We should write a book this summer. Are you going to write a book? And I thought, okay, holy Spirit, you've got me, I'm in, I'll do it. And that just started the journey that led to the writing of this book.
Speaker 1:Awesome, that is so awesome. Wow, god's good.
Speaker 1:He's so good man, I can wrestle with that sense of control you want because I started in the Independent Christian Church and I moved into the United Methodist Church. Then I moved into the Global Methodist Church and I just had a broken spirit coming out of the United Methodist Church and coming into the Global Methodist Church and it seemed like the Lord was pressing on me unity. So when I got here to this little town Lamont I'm preaching on unity and I just was like man, I should write, I just feel really called to write a book and I started on it and I set it to the side because it's just like God, I still have some healing to do here.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm in seminary and I just really don't have time for this book that you want me to write on unity, but it's like I have this real sense that the church needs this. You can't tell me that 40,000 denominations across the globe is normal. There's a fracture in the church, but it's definitely. I can relate to the want or the desire to wrestle for control.
Speaker 2:So that's a hilarious story man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even now, you know, after the book's written and it's out there, the hardest part for me is sharing the book, going on a podcast like this telling the story and the Holy Spirit's even convicted me of that and maybe you'll resonate with this where I'm like I don't want the attention. You know I don't want to be self-promoting. And the Holy Spirit convicted me and said I give you a sermon every week for your people, that I ask you to be the vessel to deliver that sermon, and that's never about you. Why does this book have to be? And if I gave you this message, why wouldn't you share it with as many people as possible? And so that's why I keep doing what I'm doing, keep coming on podcasts, keep talking about it, cause I, I really, while, while I I don't care if uh, you know, I don't care if a lot of people buy my book, I do care if a lot of people read this story and hear this message, cause I think they need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um, so, like, what you're getting at obviously is, you know, real faith it isn't. It isn't this thing that we we get to be in the driver's seat, and real faith it isn't this thing that we get to be in the driver's seat. And real faith isn't clean. It comes with its fights, it comes with surrender and laying it all down, and then all of that, that all comes before a testimony. So when you reached out, I really liked a line that you had dropped, and you dropped a pretty heavy analogy in your book that you speak of, and that's spiritual pornography. So why did you choose that language? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wish I could say I chose it. Mean by that, yeah, I wish I could say I chose it, you know? So my story starts in a Christian home where I wanted to do the right thing but I also like because it was all me and my efforts and my legalism and trying I would do the right thing and then I would stray. And I would do the right thing and I would stray, and that was kind of my story all the way through. Well, I was exposed to pornography at nine years old and it got its hooks in me deep and even to the point where, when I started studying for ministry, I was still struggling with pornography and it will probably always be this underlying temptation for me. But what I've realized over the years as I wrestled with this issue is that pornography is not primarily about lust. I think that's actually a secondary symptom or the vehicle through which this happens. But I think pornography is actually primarily about our desire for control. And what I mean by that is I started to realize, and I realized that in a conversation I got caught by my dad looking at pornography and he was angry and he got after me, but one of the things he said to me was you know, those images aren't even real. And I realized in my own heart I didn't care, I didn't care that they weren't real. And as I processed back through that, what I realized was pornography is about wanting intimacy without the cost of real intimacy. So it's wanting the feelings of something real, something intimate, something deep, and I would define intimacy as being fully known and still chosen, and we've replaced it with something cheaper than that. And so I want the feelings of something intimate, but I don't want the cost of an actual relationship. And that became a metaphor that, in my life, became true of so many areas of my life.
Speaker 2:And where spiritual pornography came from was I was teaching a class to some people in our church, a biblical overview class, and we were talking about something in the Old Testament and the sacrificial system and I heard. It was like one of those moments where I heard it coming out of my mouth and I watched all these light bulbs go on in the room where I said to the people it's sort of like spiritual pornography, it's like when we want a spirituality that settles for a false intimacy with no actual cost of intimacy with God, and it's like all these light bulbs went on the room, the Holy Spirit whispered to me. Hold on to that. That thought sat with me for over a year, and so, when the time came to write a book, the original working title was Spiritual Pornography, because the book really uses this metaphor of pornography and this idea for intimacy without real relationship as the way that we approach God.
Speaker 2:We so often approach God and we want all the things that constitute a relationship with God, like I want to have a good life, I want to go to heaven, I want to be blessed, but we don't want to count the cost of a deep, known intimacy with God. When you go back to Adam and Eve in the garden, they were naked and unashamed and that had nothing to do with sexuality. It had everything to do with being fully known and still chosen. And now, so often we come up against scripture and, to use a metaphor from the book, we like something and we swipe right on it, but we don't like something and we go, oh, that's antiquated, that doesn't apply to me, that couldn't be the same anymore, and we swipe left on it and we start to bend faith and God and Jesus to our picture that works for us rather than bending ourselves to him, rather than doing the hard work of a covenant relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we come to the word with scissors and a glue stick, right, we cut out the parts that we like and then everything else must stay, and then you have just this hodgepodge collage of rubbish. If you want me to be honest with you of your desire, your wishes for your life and then, it's no longer this God.
Speaker 1:What do you want from me? I'll follow you. I'll go where you want me to go, and that's kind of been my attitude in ministry. It's like I don't care where the Lord leads me. I'll go to Antarctica as long as he's sitting on the throne of my heart.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people don't get that, because when I came into the Global Methodist Church, a person in the United Methodist Church was like oh, the Global Methodist Church is doing that. They're sending their young guys out to the middle of nowhere so they prove themselves. I didn't really understand what he was saying, but after I gave it a good thought and the conversation was over, I was like well, what in the world does that mean? They asked me if I wanted to go here. I prayed for two weeks, and so did the church, and this is where the Lord led me. Like I will go where the Lord leads me and I'm not going to. That was my problem with the church, and still somewhat is with a lot of churches is that we tell people what they want to hear and then we glaze over the hard stuff and it never goes deep or cuts deep enough that they understand that they really must lay down everything. Jesus gave it all.
Speaker 1:That's not just a hymnal. We sing it's true.
Speaker 2:That's the problem, like you know, and that's my heartbreak and that's my passion is, you know, when we want all the benefits of a covenant relationship with God but none of the costs, what you end up with is you end up with a people who aren't seeking God, they're seeking blessing, and so you end up with churches that run on people coming and attending and I want to reach as many people for Christ as possible, but what's considered successful is when a church grows and when a church is self-sustaining and thrives, and all that, and when that becomes the pressure and the people want a Jesus of their own liking, what you end up with is the pressure on pastors well-meaning pastors who soften or compromise, and you end up with a gospel that includes John 3, 16, that God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son, but forgets to preach Luke 9, 23.
Speaker 2:You got to deny yourself. Take up your cross and follow me, and we end up with a lopsided gospel, a lopsided, and that's where I think that's where massive amounts of denominations come from. I think that's where compromise within theology has come from over time, because part of our theology becomes unpalatable to people, becomes unpalatable to people, and we assume that the way to answer that is to soften that theology instead of actually doubling down and saying this was never about getting as many people. This is about calling people to something bigger and something higher and actually believing that the plan Jesus has for us is better than anything we could have for ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like you know, you seeesus and john, and he's like you know, you, gotta, you must eat my flesh. And then, and the people were like this is a hard teaching, and you know, he just doubled down on it. He didn't say, well, that's too bad, well, let me. Let me tell you something different. No, he, he always doubled down and he didn't go after. You know the person that just wanted to walk away, like it's, like it's your choice, he's, he's given us free will, uh, but you, you must come to this, come to the table with a, a real, meaningful relationship and what you're seeking. And it's like you you talk.
Speaker 1:When you were nine, you were exposed to pornography. I would say I was probably about 13 and my dad handed me a pornography magazine and I didn't. I'm not saying that to make my parents look bad, but like there were just things that they did that just didn't make sense. Uh, and and there and lied my issue with pornography. So when you said that I was like you, you know you're right. Like pornography is more about control, because I remember being told the same thing. That's not real. Okay, yeah, I know that, and I still just didn't care. So all that said, that statement, I think, reigns true. It's about control your desires, your selfish desires, actually. But you said pornography is about control, not just lust. So how do you see control shaping shallow faith?
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, well, I mean what I wanted to control. You know, anytime I looked at pornography, what I wanted to control was I wanted a certain feeling, but I didn't just sexual. It's, you know, when we can grow together, laugh together, know each other fully, when I can anticipate her needs and she can anticipate mine, when my first thought of my life is what's going to honor her, how do I be a blessing to her, how do I express to her through my actions how much I love her. That's within the context of all her faults, all her flaws, all my faults, all my flaws, the fact that we're getting older together, you know, and so our intimacy of relationship is so, so deep, because of the willingness to step in and, in so many ways, to let go of control and say to step in and, in so many ways, to let go of control and say this is not about me, this is about serving the one I love. Well, you know, and all through scripture, god, you know, paints a picture of a relational element to faith, where he says I want to, I want to fully know you and be fully known by you. I want to walk with you in the garden. I want to, I want to be with you.
Speaker 2:And what's so interesting is when sin entered the picture and we took control, intimacy is what was broken Right.
Speaker 2:So as long as we hold onto control, that need for control becomes a barrier to intimacy with Jesus. When we let go of control in any area of our lives, we will gain intimacy when we surrender to him in that area. We will gain intimacy with him in that area because we are entering into a part of the relationship where we can be fully known. We don't have to hide from him. He can know what we struggle with. We can know who he is and love him and say I just want to do what most honors you. That's what I'm in this for, and I know that you are always doing what most honors me. I know that you laid your life down for me and so why would I not want to give everything to you? But there is a sense in which I mean even the original sin was. You know, it was desirous to the, the fruit was desirous to the eyes, and the idea of having knowledge and having control was what ultimately tempted you know, this idea of control versus surrender.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you when you give that all up. What's coming to mind for me is like you become like the psalmist where he says may the meditations of my heart I mean may the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight. Oh lord, my rock and redeemer. Like that when, when you lay it all down, it seems like to me, like and I haven't thought about it for long, just a second here that that seems to be the thing, that that's going to be the guiding point when your control is laid down. You're not coming to God with open hands, but you're coming fully surrendered and ready to lay down that control.
Speaker 1:So faith is spiritual pornography, some listeners might think. Man, why does that hit hard? And I think the simple answer there is because, it's true, too many of us want the feeling of intimacy with God without the cost of covenant. We want the goosebumps, the atmosphere, we want the highlight reel for faith, but no obedience, no, dying to self, and that's not worship. No, dying to self, and that's not worship, that's idolatry dressed up as christianity, and that's no good for anyone.
Speaker 1:Uh, so, so that that that's the uncomfortableness that that we're filling with, that I think, uh, even for me, when, when I mean it hit me hard when you said that, but the more I thought about it, like man's, like man, that's true, and I need to have this guy on my show because that's exactly the things that I'm trying to call the church from. I'm trying to stir the church back to holiness, back to faith in God, back to being fully surrendered to a mighty God, who, who, can do everything that he says. I mean, you know, when it comes to leading a church and you could probably relate to this it's like you know, it seems like people don't always trust the pastor and it's like absolutely right, like well, maybe we don't trust god either, because you know, we have this book and we say we have faith and we see throughout.
Speaker 1:You know, from genesis to revelation, the lord has been faithful to his people, and then we act faithless. Yeah, I, I don't know that's, that's just a thought that just came to mind. It's like you know we'll follow you. You go just as long as it doesn't lead to change, and perhaps we're following the Lord with that same mindset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. You know. I think back to Joshua 24, where Joshua was calling the Israelites and said hey, you can choose to serve whatever God you want, but he really pushes them. He says make a choice Like choose this, you can choose to serve whatever God you want, but he really pushes them. He says make a choice Like choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we're going to serve the Lord, but you do have a choice. You know, as I recently preached in a parenting message, we get to set the spiritual tone for our home home.
Speaker 2:John Tyson from Church of the City of New York City talks about how Christian parents are surprised because we don't make Christ the center of our home. He's a part of our home, you know. We talk about him, but we make something else. We make sports or we make our kids leagues or whatever. We make that the center of the home and we don't prioritize church and we don't prioritize the body of Christ. We don't prioritize scripture and prayer in the home. And then we're surprised when our kids wander.
Speaker 2:But he said whatever's central to your home is what you're discipling your kids into, and so if you don't make Christ the center of your home. You can't be surprised when, in the next generation, what is optional to us becomes irrelevant to our children. And so one of the things I preach to our congregation is, like John Tyson said, we're discipling our kids into unbelief. You know, by being halfway in, we're discipling our kids into unbelief, and then we're surprised when they don't turn to God, when things go wrong. And so, you know, what I shared with our congregation is you don't have to follow Jesus Like you can go all in on Jesus or you can choose something else, but what you can't do is go half in on Jesus and then be surprised when your kids don't turn to Him when they're older.
Speaker 1:And it's like why, should they right Like you're not doing it? You're my parent. I see you not doing it, so why should I turn to God? God doesn't fix your problems. What makes me think he's going to fix mine? And I'm sure that's the attitude they come to it with too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Why would your kids devour scripture if they didn't see you devouring scripture? Why would your kids turn to God in prayer if they didn't catch you turning to him in prayer? And why in the world, when they become adults and have their own families, would they go to church? When you made church optional all the time? Why would they have created habits that are better than the ones you created?
Speaker 2:You're laying the foundation, and so I just think you know this concept like in a thousand different ways. This isn't like a giant rebellion of people. This is death by a thousand paper cuts. You know this is in a thousand different ways. We settle for less than all of Jesus, and when we do that, we don't understand what we're doing, because it still feels like a relationship with Jesus. But then stuff goes wrong and we question our faith. But what we're actually questioning is the Jesus I believe in wouldn't let this happen. The Jesus I believe in wouldn't let this happen. The Jesus I believe in wouldn't let me get cancer, wouldn't let my loved one die, and we start to question the goodness of who he is. But we're questioning the goodness of a Jesus that doesn't exist instead of paying attention to the one we're holding him responsible for promises that he never even made.
Speaker 1:That's good. Yeah, that's very, very true. I'm sure we don't ever think of it that way, but wow, that's actually very profound. So let's push this further. Covenant faith it's costly. Airbrush Christianity, if you will, is cheap. So where do you see the church promoting airbrushed Christianity instead of covenant faith?
Speaker 2:theologies. I'm a Wesleyan but I'm not like I think we're going to get to heaven and God's going to be like. Well, the Wesleyans really got this part right, but the Baptists really nailed this part. But both of you were wrong on this part and the Lutherans were right on that part. We're all just doing our best to understand. So this isn't a shot at theology, but I think there is a sense in which, when God's word reveals something that doesn't align with culture, we try to make God's word culturally acceptable. And there's, it's just not. It's not.
Speaker 2:So there's, you know, a thousand different versions of the story. You know people get caught up on tithing and is that an Old Testament or a New Testament thing? And is it on the net or is it on the gross? And they're trying to figure out? Is that even something we have to do anymore?
Speaker 2:And meanwhile, the New Testament overflows with calls to just be generous. And really, god's call isn't about 10% or any of that. It's about first fruits, putting him absolutely first before anything else, including with your finances. It's about first fruits, putting him absolutely first before anything else, including with your finances. It's about generosity and it's about just being sensitive to his word If he calls you to be generous, step in and do it, but we don't like what that means, and so you know, we soften the teaching around finances, you know, and you know Financial Peace University. I have nothing against it, but it seems to be a little bit more about trying to be generous in a way that makes me wealthy and not to put the kingdom of God first, and money is just one example of that. I mean, I think we do this with human sexuality. I think we do this with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say that the United Methodist Church you can look at it and it ripples through every single denomination out there now?
Speaker 1:because we won't. I personally think and you can disagree with me on it I think it's the church seeing a decrease in numbers and, like you said, growth is a identifier of a church's health, if you will. And I think that the and the specifically in the United Methodist cases so I'm not talking broadly that I think they saw the church dying and thought how can we get more people in here? Let's compromise the word, and I had a problem with that. I have a problem with that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know again, beyond making it about any one issue, you know when I have people disagree with me on any issue and they say, hey, we're going to go to another church because you know, you taught this and we just don't know. Wesleyan Church promotes women in ministry. Not every denomination is down with that. And they're like, hey, we don't, we don't. And it doesn't matter what the issue is, whether it's tithing or human sexuality, or women in ministry or immigration, or whatever the whatever the issue is.
Speaker 2:Um, what I tell people all the time is, if you find another church, that's great. And if you find a church that you talk to the pastor and they have a strong commitment to the word, but they've come to a different conclusion, that's one thing. But you know they say why won't you change your stance on this? Why won't you soften your stance on this? Why won't you soften your stance on this? And I just tell them listen, if you end up at a church where they will compromise God's word in order to make it palatable to people, if I'll do that on one issue, how can you trust me with God's word on any issue?
Speaker 2:You cannot trust someone who will compromise their beliefs and the integrity of God's word to be palatable. How can you trust anything they say? And so I have to stay true to scripture. I have to stay true to my and I might not have it right, but I have to say I have to do my best to interpret the word of God and to teach what I have interpreted and to stay as true to scripture as I possibly can. And while I have interpreted, and to stay as true to scripture as I possibly can, and while I'm not claiming to have my perfect theology, I do think someone. There's a major concern for me when a pastor gets to the point where they're so concerned about people leaving that they'll compromise God's word in order to keep them to stay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was an instance of that here in Oklahoma a church trying to disaffiliate from the Nazarene church over sexuality, except for the disaffiliation was happening because the church wanted to allow for that in the church church. Uh, and the church leader essentially and this isn't in the newspaper he was just like you know, uh, our people are okay with it and you know, we, we just don't. We have a healthy congregation and we just don't want to upset the balance and that's a paraphrase. But that's like a good example of like let's compromise the word for comfortability, and God doesn't call us to be comfortable, he doesn't call us to that. I mean, jesus didn't live a comfortable life his three years of ministry. Like, why should we? So I digress, but still that points to the fact that you know we're okay to bend in certain areas to keep the pews full.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, I think there is a distinct difference between someone who goes on any issue like, let's call it, the money issue. I think there's a distinct difference between someone who searches out scripture with an honest heart and comes to a different conclusion. I think that's what denominations were born out of right and while there's probably too many of them, there are theological things where we've honestly come to Scripture and we've come up with very different conclusions and it's an honest, true, heartfelt search and I can respect that. What is harder to deal with and what we see, you know, when it happens amongst clergy and then we're leading people and then it trickles out of people, when it becomes a decision that actually goes against what I believe, but I compromise on it in order to, whatever the issue is, in order to appease the people. That's where it becomes dangerous, I think, in the life of the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. You know. It's like worship is about obedience. God doesn't want your song if he doesn't have your heart. And I think sometimes we miss that, because every time we choose production over presence, every time we let the platform be about talent instead of testimony, every time we tell people God just wants you happy, but never call them to holiness. That's airbrush Christianity and it leaves people looking polished, but spiritually they're starving Right. And there's just like no better way to put that and like how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Who knows a hunger for authenticity. I see an entire generation being raised by parents who grew up in a postmodern culture that said whatever works for you works for you, and that then infected our Christianity and we ended up with an airbrush version of Jesus. When the nuns are walking away from church, I don't think they're walking away from faith or Jesus as much as from an airbrush picture of him. But I think there's a desire because of a generation that grew up with parents who were saying that whatever's okay for you is okay for you, and then they had to live with the results of alcoholism and broken marriages and abuse and all these things they saw. Amongst a generation of parents who justified whatever they, you know, wanted.
Speaker 2:I think there's just a true hunger for authenticity Somebody show me what's real, somebody tell me what's true, and and I think they just want to they don't, they don't want to show, they want an experience with, with the real God, and so I'm really, really encouraged. I actually don't think you know talking with a mentor in my life. That said, I don't think we're post-Christian, I think we're pre-revival.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good, I think that's true. I really do.
Speaker 1:I believe that and that's what's been reigning in my heart too is like God is up to something, he is doing something. He is up to something and I know that's a song and I'm not trying to make light of it, but he is literally up to something and I don't know what it is, but I have a feeling it has to do with what your book talks about. I have a feeling it has something to do with unifying the body of Christ, and I'm excited about it and I'm ready for it. So I buckle up and preach holiness, spread the word of God throughout the land and trust that the Lord is going to make all things right in its season. Absolutely so. Your life hasn't just been theory. You've lived legalism, rebellion and surrender. So which of those has been the hardest to heal from? Legalism, rebellion and surrender. So which of those has been the hardest to heal from legalism or rebellion?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I would have to say legalism. I think both legalism and rebellion are rebellion. They're both rebellion of their own sort, because what God has called us to is full surrender, and legalism is control right. And so when I rebelled and I was, you know, knowingly sinful and chose sinful things you know I had grown up learning about the grace of God, and so it's been easier for me to know that God's grace is big enough to cover all my sins.
Speaker 2:The problem is, when your sins look like, uh, christianity, it it can become more of a struggle, you know. And so I see a generation of Christians and I was one of them for a while that you know we, we know that we're saved by grace, but we try to live by works, and uh, so to live by works, and uh so I, I have to, I constantly have to fight against uh legalistic standards. I'm not living legalistically anymore, but when God calls you to be in the lives of people whose lives are very ungodly, it's really easy to fall into the trap of judging them based on Christian standards, but they don't know Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And not being able to to walk with broken people and show them grace, and meet them where they are, and and so, um, you know, I, I, it took me longer to break the bonds of legalism that would allow me to, you know, go into the places and spaces where Jesus spent all his time and, uh, not just cloister myself around other people who felt like me, believe like me, watch the same news station as me, whatever. Uh, you know, but that's not who I'm called to. I'm called to be in the world, not of it. And so, yeah, I think for me that was harder, and I think I see, in the lives of people, it's it's, it's harder to be, you know, confronted like we all want to receive, theoretically, want to see lost people to come to Christ. But when they start to come to Christ, or when they start seeking, and then they show up at church and they're messy and they're lost and they're hurting, and they sit in my seat and and make church feel different than I like it to feel, Uh, do we still have God's heart for lost people? Uh, and so legalism can become just a real, you know, the elder brother syndrome I like it to feel. Do we still have God's heart for lost people, and so legalism can become just a real. You know the elder brother syndrome.
Speaker 2:I had a. I had a mentor in my life who said, if you're been a Christian over a year, you need to read the gospels, like you're the elder brother and the prodigal son story Cause you probably are. So also, if you need, if you read them, you need to read them from the perspective of the Pharisee, because that's probably what you become.
Speaker 1:So if this isn't too much, you can tell me if it is. But can you tell us about your accident in 2006 and how it changed your view of ownership of your life life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just. It was one tool that God used and I can honestly say, had I not had this accident, the church I planted would never have existed because I wouldn't have gone through the transformation of my own life that needed to happen. So I was. I was serving as youth pastor, working on a, on a ropes course and climbing course, and there was an equipment failure and I ended up falling just shy of 60 feet. I should not have made it, I should not have survived, but the Holy Spirit really delivered me and allowed me to live through that. And you know the multiple surgeries, multiple weeks in the hospital, multiple weeks in a wheelchair, months of rehabilitation, learning to walk again, all these things. But the day that the accident happened, I was in the hospital multiple weeks in a wheelchair, months of rehabilitation, learning to walk again, all these things. But the day that the accident happened, I was in the hospital and I was in and out of consciousness from pain and I was begging God to give me like a comforting thought, a scripture, whatever.
Speaker 2:And the story he brought to my mind was the story of the man born blind. And you know who sinned him, or his parents, that he was born blind. And Jesus said none of that happened. This happened that I might be glorified, and it was like the Holy Spirit whispered into my heart in that moment is it okay if I broke you, and it's not about you?
Speaker 2:And there was a moment in that of am I willing to allow God to do anything through me for the sake of his kingdom? And am I willing to allow God to do anything through me for the sake of his kingdom? And am I willing to be broken physically, but also emotionally, mentally? Am I willing to do hard things, am I willing to go to hard places? Am I willing to surrender my ministry to him? And if it grows, it's him, and if it doesn't, it's him. And there was just in that moment a lot of realization that I had made I'd been in ministry at that point for about five years, and that I had made I'd been in ministry at that point for about five years and that I had made my ministry about me. I had made it Phil-centric instead of Christ-centric. And so when I was there it went great, and when I wasn't, it didn't. And this might be a hard thing for pastors to hear, but if your church can't run without you, that's a problem that's good, uh, and that that's very true.
Speaker 1:I've been there where I have made um ministry, definitely about me, and uh, and I've had to repent of that, uh, and it's very true. If your church can't run without you, then you're in trouble, because your job is to make disciples, that make disciples, and if you're not doing that, then boy will your church fall, and mighty will its fall be. So this moment of your life, I mean I think it's clear what you're saying and I mean it's what the biblical text tells us too. Our lives are not our own. Either we belong to him fully or we're just playing games. And I think that's like a beautiful story of redemption, how Christ brought you from near death to kingdom work, to calling people to holiness, to stirring the church, and I just want to be the first here to commend you on that, because that's hard.
Speaker 1:I tried to do things my way, my own self as well. My first degree is in healthcare administration and I worked in healthcare a good portion of my life and ran. Uh, got out of that and started working with franchisees and running restaurants, and I'll tell you I was. I was successful at it, but I was miserable as all get out. I hated it and and that's when I finally was just like there's got to be more and just gave up. It's like, lord, use me how you will. And he did that and he took me from the Christian church to the United Methodist Church, where I think he was really just strengthening my legs because I had this roses and sunshine and rainbows view of the church, that the church is just this perfect thing, and I think he needed me to see that. Hey, it's not, and you're going to need someone to lean on and I need you to know that you need to lean on me and not other people.
Speaker 1:Because in the moment before I left the United Methodist Church to come to the Global Methodist Church, I was going to quit.
Speaker 1:I was sitting in a meeting and I remember thinking to myself today I quit, I'm done, the church doesn't need a guy like me. It's clear that they're not looking for someone that's going to be conservative, to God's word and not read into it things that aren't there. And that was the moment I was like I'm done. And then I got just a random text from a leader in the Global Methodist Church, lisa Beavers, and she was like hey, we're looking for a pastor in Lamont and you know John Wesley talked about his heart being strangely warmed and I can say that that was probably a moment in my life where I truly related to that, like my heart jumped for joy and while I came with all of my excuses, like Moses, why I can't lead these people, why I can't go there, lord, I'm broken, I'm hurt, he said let me fix that. And every reason that my wife had that she could have used for us not to come here, let me fix that. He said.
Speaker 2:And I think it's just it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's beautiful. Uh, when you hear stories like yours especially and mine, where it's like, when you come to that moment of true surrender, you find that god is really faithful. And once you find that I I will say I'm not going back. I don't know about you, but I'm not going back. I don't want to live a different life. I am overly thrilled with where the Lord has taken me and how far he has brought me. This far and until my last breath, I'm going to praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean even on days where I don't want to do ministry anymore. These stories of God's faithfulness in these moments are what keep you going, and I think maybe the biggest lesson for me, for my fall was not just that God has a permission to break me. But, you know, in hindsight I look back and I know a ransom church that we planted in 2009 would not have been planted had I not learned those lessons. And I can now go.
Speaker 2:If I could go back and do it all over again, I would say God, break me again so that you can use me, and I think that the message for everyone out there is yeah, god might not call every one of you into vocational ministry, but this is a priesthood of believers and we are all here for a reason, and so I tell our congregation all the time you have a spiritual responsibility and ownership for the people around you, and if this were just about you, then when you got saved, god would remove you from this planet immediately, because why leave you here? But he doesn't. He saves you and then he sends you, and so what I tell people is that that means your eternity is in him, but if you're still here, breathing air. Every day he gives you on this planet to breathe air is another day that he's got a plan and a purpose for you, and you better be living it out.
Speaker 1:I always say if you're not dead, god's not done. You're not in the, you're not in the great cloud of witnesses, you're in the pew and the church and the here and now right in front of me, and it doesn't matter if you're 22 or 72, god's not done. You just got to accept that. So let's bring this home, your book. It aimed at Christians who feel their faith lacking. That's what I gather, at least.
Speaker 2:So if someone is listening right now and realizes they've never actually surrendered, what's the first step? Yeah, I mean, I think, just the basic gospel, and really my book is written for two audiences it's for those who have faith and are like this cannot be all there is, there's got to be more than this. But also for those who do not have faith, who are like might read it and go. You know, this is my problem with the church. This is exactly what I've been talking about. But you're telling me that Jesus isn't like that and I want to know that Jesus. And I would say, whether you're someone who's gone to church your whole life or you don't even know Jesus, the first step is just surrendering to him and just having a conversation with him and saying, jesus, I have not given you my all and I need to surrender that.
Speaker 2:And I wish I could say that that's going to be, you know, a moment where you'll make one decision and everything will be great from then on. It's not You're going to have to daily deny yourself and choose him. This is a journey. It's about being You're going to have to daily deny yourself and choose him. This is a journey. It's about being pointed towards Jesus and moving towards him, you know, and that's a lifelong journey, and I would just say, start there, start with getting yourself oriented towards Jesus. Whatever we orient our lives towards, it'll be reflected in everything we do and it'll be the most important thing. And so just do the work to go. I want you, you know, even if you're not there yet, I want Jesus to be most important and then get up every day and choose to live that way, but it will be an everyday surrender, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's setting your aim upward right and not, you know, just around you. Fix your eyes on the author and the perfecter of our faith and learn how he did it. He was despised. He was rejected.
Speaker 2:So how do we move from cheap substitutes to real covenant? I think that step-by-step, day-by-day. You're not going to. If you settled for a cheap substitute faith, you're not going to wake up tomorrow and be fully engaged in a covenant relationship with God. I think it's just make different choices every day.
Speaker 2:So where I tell people to start is after you've kind of worked that out with the Lord, you've got to get into the Word. You've got to be regularly in the Word, you've got to be regularly in the prayer. The sheep follow His voice because they know His voice, and so the only way you can get yourself to a point where you're not settling for a substitute is to get to know the real Jesus, and that is only going to happen through prayer, through scripture, through finding a church that teaches God's word. If you're not in church, getting into a church. If you are in church, get into a small group, get into a discipleship, relationship and accountability. Like any space that would create biblical community in your life where we would be doing life together. You space that would create biblical community in your life where we would be doing life together. You'd need those spaces in your life and then don't expect it to happen overnight.
Speaker 2:Just take a step. Take a step when you mess up and you will celebrate that you walked faithfully for three days or four days or five days and then you fell down and you clean yourself back up and start walking towards him again. But just understand, it's a lifelong journey. It's like someone who's not been living the way they should in their marriage for 20 years wanting a different marriage. How much work is it going to take to turn that thing around? A lot, a lot. But the key is reorientation to the right thing and a daily choice to follow that path and day by day, over time. That's how you're going to turn your marriage around. It's also how you're going to turn your faith around.
Speaker 1:And my listeners know this of me the Global Methodist has done this thing where they're renewing the call to discipleship groups, as Wesley had them. So he had the class meeting and he had the band meeting and I started a band meeting, which is a group where you confess your sin, where you fall daily with people that you can trust, that aren't going to go outside the room and tell everyone else. It's like a confidentiality group if you will go outside the room and tell everyone else. It's like a confidentiality group if you will. But it's like without them, boy, I would be in trouble sometimes because I can look back and say my life is not what it it was.
Speaker 1:But I also have, you know, have this, you know, I don't know. You want to call it lust is the right word. But like this desire, like, oh well, the moment things go wrong here, I can always just go back to that, and that's certainly not good, it's true. Get in a small group. His call is real Get in a small group, confess your sins. If you don't want to do that, get into a small group. The word calls us to pray for one another so that we might be healed.
Speaker 2:Confess your sins.
Speaker 1:Pray so that you might be healed and I think that that is what John Wesley was leaning into, too is like you know. We want to do this faith alone, but we can't, we just can't.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, friends, that's the call of uncomfortable faith stop chasing the easy, the polish, the fate. Start surrendering to the God who demands your all. Phil, I want to give you 30 seconds to a minute here to pitch your book to us and why we should buy it, because I think that that's what I feel called and led to do. So I want to give you that opportunity before we close.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Yeah, the why behind buying it is if you want to go on that journey and you don't want to go on it alone, if you resonate with the idea of airbrushed Christianity, if you resonate with the idea of settling for less than all of Jesus, if you've ever felt like man. There's just gotta be more. I live this Christian life, I go to church, and yet when I do read scripture, the Jesus I read about in the gospels seems so different and like so much more than the faith that I'm living out. If that's you, man, I'd love to have you read the book. It is available on Amazon, it is available at my website, philtagcom, and if you go to the website and it's philtagcom and if you go there, there's a link to the book on Amazon. But there's also a link to a free study guide, and so if it would be meaningful to read the book together to study, to wrestle, that's just a free PDF resource that you can download there as well.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, thank you, phil, for being bold and for not skirting the hard stuff To those listening. Maybe today you've realized your faith has been more airbrushed than covenant. Maybe you've been chasing the filling instead of surrendering to the lordship of Jesus. Here's the truth Faith without surrender isn't faith, it's just religion dressed up. You don't need a cheap substitute, you need Jesus, you need coveted. But until next time, friends, my call is always the same Stay faithful, stay uncomfortable and stay in the fight. And, as Wesley would say, the best of all is that Christ is with us. And I would say even better than that is, god is not done with you yet, amen.
