Uncomfortable Grace
Through Uncomfortable Grace, I create space for honest, Spirit-led conversations that challenge the Church to return to truth, unity, and holiness. Each episode confronts the hard stuff... sin, division, lukewarm faith and invites listeners into deeper surrender, practical discipleship, and a revived relationship with Jesus. This isn’t about surface-level inspiration... it’s about transformation.
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Uncomfortable Grace
Mission Critical: Unity Is Not Extra Credit (Special Guest James Early)
Imagine a world where Christians stopped fighting each other and started focusing on their shared mission. This conversation between Coty and James Early tackles one of the most pressing issues facing the church today: unity.
With approximately 40,000 denominations worldwide and countless theological battles raging, Christianity's fractured state raises profound questions about our witness. What would happen if we took Jesus's prayer in John 17 seriously? What if believers prioritized love over being right?
Early shares a powerful metaphor that perfectly captures our denominational differences: cameras attached to different parts of the body will capture the same journey from completely different perspectives—none wrong, just unique vantage points. Similarly, Christians view faith from different positions within the body of Christ, yet we often condemn those whose perspective differs from our own.
The conversation digs into uncomfortable truths about pride, doctrinal arrogance, and how our divisions damage our credibility with unbelievers. Why would someone join a faith community that can't stop fighting itself? As Early notes, "If there's not love, we're nothing," echoing Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13.
Both host and guest challenge listeners to move beyond theological debates to the heart of Jesus's teaching: love that transcends differences. Unity doesn't mean uniformity—we don't need to worship the same way or agree on every doctrine. But we do need to demonstrate the transformative love that Jesus said would identify his followers.
Whether you're frustrated by church politics, concerned about Christianity's public witness, or simply longing for a more united body of Christ, this episode offers both challenge and hope. The path toward unity begins with individual believers who choose humility over pride, understanding over judgment, and Christ's kingdom over their own. As Coty reminds us, "Unity isn't extra credit—it's mission critical."
Hello and welcome back to Uncomfortable Grace, where truth and mercy collide. I'm Cody, and today we're talking about one of the biggest issues facing the church right now, and that's unity, Music, Music. We've got something like 40,000 denominations, endless divisions and Christians fighting each other instead of fighting the real enemy. And yet Jesus prayed in John 17 that his followers would be one, just as he and the Father are one. Unity isn't optional. I would say it's mission critical. My guest today is James Early, who's been digging deep into this issue and has a real passion to see the church come together as the body of Christ. We're going to talk about what unity looks like, why unity even matters and how we can pursue it without compromising the truth. James, I'm glad to have you here today on Uncomfortable Grace, but before we jump into it, would you take a minute to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your journey with our listeners?
James Early:Hey, cody, thank you very much and I'm so grateful to be here. By the way, and to all of you listening, thank you for tuning in. As Cody said, my name is James Early. Currently I'm living in Connecticut.
James Early:I grew up in Texas and I grew up in a home where we always had some kind of Bible devotional, either at the breakfast table or, if we missed in breakfast time, we'd do it in the evening. At one point we were reading a chapter of the Bible every day. It took us about seven or eight years to get through because we skipped a few days in there. So I grew up going to church and it being important to me, and when I was in high school I really got serious about my faith and started asking those deeper questions. And that's really when I made it my own. And there were times when all I can remember the first time I really kind of had to put something into practice and that was in my Bible study one week was that passage where it says if you say you love God but you hate your brother, you're a liar, and you're probably familiar with the rest of it. It says you know how can you say you love God who you can't see, but you don't even love your brother, who you can see. And so I thought well, gee, I think I love God, but I sure don't love my little brother. And it hit me right in the heart as well as between the eyes. I'm a liar, I have to start loving my little brother. And I made a conscious shift in my heart and in my mind and I actually started loving him instead of being whatever I was being toward him. And it's really the first time. One of the first times I remember once I got serious about my faith, where I put my faith into practice for myself instead of, you know, talking to somebody or whatever. It was just between me and God, and so that has kind of set the tone for me. I mean, I still talk to people, I ask people to pray for me and with me and all that stuff, but I'm working on my relationship with God and how I can go directly to God.
James Early:So fast forward many years. I'm married now. I have three grown children. We live in Connecticut. I was a full-time stay-at-home dad for 10 years when we first got married and that was a real journey of faith in lots of ways, and at some point after that I guess this was in about 2008, someone asked me to help them with their prison ministry and so every week since 2008, minus the COVID years I've been going to the Danbury Connecticut Federal Correctional Institution. It's a federal, low-level, low-security prison and I've been doing Bible studies every week, both with men and women, and that has really formed me in lots of ways.
James Early:I can remember way back in high school, first year of college, when I was still very new to my own faith, instead of just going with my parents, I was at a church meeting and the speaker said her little prayer had always been and this was an elderly lady and I was fresh out of high school. Early in college she said her prayer was always dear God, prepare me for what you have prepared for me. Dear God, prepare me for what you have prepared for me. And that has always stuck with me and God has had me on a very circuitous path to where I am now. You know I never had some big, fabulous career where I was the CEO of something. I was the stay-at-home dad and, you know, did the little things here and there and some odd jobs and stuff, but through it all I've wanted to do whatever God wanted me to do, and so this prison ministry really opened my heart to teaching the Bible to other people, and people were so helped. They would say, oh, mr Early, you're, you know, you've changed my life, you restored my faith in God, that sort of thing and I thought I've got to find a way to share these ideas with more people. And so, back in 2019, I started a podcast, the Bible Speaks to you, and it's been going now gosh, basically six years, and I've had listeners in 202 countries and territories, almost 10,000 different cities all over the world, and it's just very humbling and amazing to me that this is happening.
James Early:And through all this, I've come to see that, unlike when I first got interested in my faith, I mean, and really made it my own, I kind of felt like, well, I'm right, everybody else is wrong, I just have to go out and correct the whole world. That didn't go too well. And now, like in my Bible study classes in the prison, I have people from different denominations Protestant, catholic, I've had a few Muslims at times, some Native Americans and I'm realizing I'm not trying to convert them to the way I think, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong or that sort of thing, and we'll have some conversations where we don't all agree. Don't all agree, and I realized that that's an important thing is that we don't always have to agree on everything, because we're looking at things from different perspectives. And we'll get to that, I hope, in just a little bit.
James Early:But I am now my whole focus now with my podcast and my ministry. I do public speaking and do workshops online and in person and all kinds of stuff. Ministry I do public speaking and do workshops online and in person and all kinds of stuff. My whole focus is I'm tired of those theological debates.
James Early:Right now, my whole focus is we need to think and pray and love like Jesus did, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, 16, 1 Corinthians sorry, 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, 16. We have the mind of Christ. Well, we don't always act like it, we don't always think like it, we don't pray that way, we don't treat other people that way, and so my whole goal is to help people. Well, first is to start with myself and then to help others embrace this idea that we have the mind of Christ. You, whoever you are right now listening you have the mind of Christ. Start using the mind of Christ to think and pray and love with. And boy, it totally changes the whole. It changes what happens, it changes the way you see yourself in other people, and that's.
James Early:I kind of went a little further into the story maybe than I could have, but that's kind of who I am right now. And I mean I love a good theological conversation. But all the debate stuff saying well, I'm right and you're wrong, and everybody's arguing over that, like you said in your introduction, we're fighting over this stuff. That's not right. So let's get back to what did Jesus tell us that we need to do? How are we supposed to love? How are we supposed to treat other people? And that's who I am and that's what I'm trying to help people latch onto.
Coty:Yeah, it's definitely one of those things where we're looking at the speck in our brother's eye and forgetting about the plank in our own eye, and I think we do that denominationally, even across.
Coty:You know, there are probably thousands of Wesleyan traditions and it all sprang over. You know well, we don't believe in speaking in tongues or we don't dance in church or you know something strange like that. And for me, my call has always just been like who cares? Like what you do, we're all trying to get to the same means. Not all faiths lead to the same means. I'm not saying that, don't hear that, but I'm saying that faith in God, whether you're Baptist, catholic, methodist, your aims are still fixed toward the creator of the universe, and that's the part that matters. So for me, james, one thing I see all the time is, like I said, christians spending more energy, more energy than they ever need.
Coty:I think we give the devil too much credit. He's sitting back in Cuba smoking a cigar and just laughing at us, but we're fighting each other Instead of fighting the sin or fighting the devil. Denomination, church politics, social media arguments it all fills inlets. And yet the Bible was clear. A house divided can't stand. Division is killing our witness. If we can't be unified as the church, how can we expect the world around us to unify and follow the creator of the universe, the great uncaused cause and that's a struggle and something that I've been pursuing with all my heart that I just don't get why the church isn't unified.
James Early:Well, see, here's the thing that I have. This is the way I see. Well, this is what helps me answer that question. Let's say you had six iPhones or Androids.
James Early:If you're an Android, and so you take your smartphone, put one on your head one on your shoulder, one on your waist, one on a knee, one on a foot and one on the back, on your back. You tape it up and you turn the video camera on and you walk down the street, so even for just a minute, or for five minutes, however long. Then you come home, you upload all those videos onto your computer and you have six different videos of the same activity. Cody, which one of those is right? Which one of those is correct?
Coty:Though obviously the one that I would say, the one that's getting the front view. But they're all correct, You're all doing the same thing Nothing. Yeah, your body was going through one motion. That's getting the front view. But they're all correct, You're all doing the same thing. Nothing would be wrong.
James Early:Your body was going through one motion, but they're all looking at it from a different perspective.
James Early:Now let's go to Paul's metaphor of the body of Christ representing the church. We're all in different places in the body of Christ. Sometimes I think of that denominationally. But even within a local church, you know, there are different people that have different functions and different gifts and all that kind of stuff. You I'm not going to say.
James Early:Let's say someone thinks they are in the right hand of the body of Christ, out there, visible, working hard, doing the stuff, and they look down at the left foot, and they look at the left foot in the body of Christ and they say you know what? You don't look like me, you don't act like me, you don't talk like me, you don't see things the way I see. You always describe things so differently than I do. You must not be a Christian. I know I'm a Christian, I know I'm in the body of Christ, but you are so different you must not be a Christian. And so then the right hand of the body of Christ tries to convert the left foot of the body of Christ to be part of the right hand. And Paul says if the whole body is a hand, where's the body? You can't have a giant hand flopping around on the street trying to get somewhere and do anything, the hand needs the left foot, the right foot, the left knee. You know we need all those spiritual body parts. I mean the metaphor is kind of a funny one, but you know we need all those spiritual body parts. I mean the metaphor is kind of a funny one, but you know we need all the different members in the body of Christ and we do have different perspectives.
James Early:And the problem is we're looking through the lens of our perspective on the body of Christ. But Christ is the head. That's where the eyes are. We're pretending like we've got eyes on the foot or the hand or the knee or the elbow or whatever. I mean a human body obviously does not have eyes all those places. What, if? What if your human body had eyes all those places, it would you. It would be hard to know how to walk down the street, you know, because you'd be seeing things from every perspective.
James Early:And so I think part of the solution is realizing we're not ever going to unify on some of these doctrines that we have or practices, because that's the way we see it from where we are in the body of Christ. And you know this metaphor is not perfect, it can break down if you push it too far. But what if we were all looking through the eyes of Christ, who is the head of the body? And that's hard to do to give up your own personal opinions, your personal perspective, your personal hopes and dreams and aspirations, your personal fears and insecurities? What if we could actually?
James Early:Well, it goes back to what I said when I was talking earlier about we have the mind of Christ. What if we were thinking that way earlier about we have the mind of christ? What if we were thinking that way? We would see things differently. And this is I. This all came to me when I was talking to all these different people in prison because, um, I'm realizing, hey, we can unite on what? What's the one thing we can night on? Unite on the core issue? Yeah, and that is to me Jesus Christ is the son of God, he is the Messiah.
Coty:Yep. And after that and after that we can get into the weeds pretty quickly.
James Early:I mean, I believe Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead and ascended, and you know the virgin birth. But some people either don't get that or that's hard for them. I don't, that doesn't bother me anymore. I think you got to let people be where they are and let your light shine, so that might be helpful. But if they believe in Jesus, that's enough for me to say, okay, brother, sister, let's see what we can learn together. Let's talk about these things and let me know why you feel this way or that way, instead of oh, you're right, or I mean, you're wrong, and let me prove how. Let me quote this scripture on you, and I don't need to be right anymore Christ is right, you know and that that seemed like to me.
Coty:I went to United Methodist Seminary and it definitely like what you're saying is like ringing true to me and it's kind of clicking and I didn't really think of it this way, but to me it seemed like they wore that hand that saw the foot in one light and was like well, you're not a Christian, christian. And the thing is is, the funny part is, in that seminary there were United Methodist students that were absolutely willing to say to the foot or the right hand that you're not a Christian. And just because you know we didn't approach things the same way, that we didn't view scripture as inerrant or infallible or that, for instance, we believe in the virgin birth. So it's like we have to stop that. That seems to be an obstacle in all the churches around the world. You hear, well, we're the one true church from the Catholics or the Orthodox and it's like, well, I don't know about that, because there's definitely some things that Protestants left you on because we don't agree on it.
Coty:One of those things that come to mind for me immediately, for Catholics, is this intention of Mary. I get that it's not unthinkable that God would do something like that, but we're not given the text to believe that. So that would be an instance. But for me still, I can approach my fellow Catholic believers and still want to walk with them in Christ and lead other people to Christ, because I think in the end we're all headed in the same direction. So what your dogma is, what your doctrine is, whatever it is, that doesn't matter. What matters is that we're living like Jesus and we're leading people to Jesus. I mean, that's my personal opinion and I'm sure someone would probably poke holes in that, and I'm sure you could, but nonetheless I think we're called to live like Jesus and lead people to Him. So I guess my question to you is when you look at the church today, what do you see as the biggest obstacle to unity?
James Early:Boy howdy. Well, I would call it maybe several things. I would say denominational or doctrinal pride, and I think it traces back to 1,700 years ago. This year, in 325 AD, emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire called a council the Council of Nicaea. There was this big debate in the church over the divinity, or who Jesus is. They were arguing. These were earnest, sincere Christians. This was 300 years, basically, after Jesus was gone, not quite. And you know they were wrestling with well, who is this guy? Is he just a man? Is he god? Is he the son of god? It's like they had all these different perspectives. So they had this big meeting, this council, and they came out with what most people now a lot of christians, feel like is the basic litmus test for whether you're a christian. It's called the nicene creed and it was altered a few times over history. Whatever clarified whatever.
James Early:But the more I studied the history of that council and how it came down and what happened in the next 50 years, I realized, first off, if you read the creed, it doesn't say anything about the way you're supposed to live your life. It just says I believe this, I believe this, I believe this, I believe this, and it's important to know what you believe, but there's nothing in there about your commitment to Christ or your commitment to follow and obey him. Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. There's nothing in there about repentance, about taking care of. You know, ministering to those in need, preaching the gospel. There's none of the stuff that Jesus said. You know, you have to do the will of my father. When he separated the sheep from the goats, he said you're the one to the sheep, he said you're the ones that ministered to me by ministering to my brothers and sisters. And so I think that the tragic flaw now, this is back to opinions. This is my opinion, my perspective, and you can agree or disagree, but this is the way I see it.
James Early:For right now, I think one of the tragic flaws flaws, although it seemed to bring a sense of unity, at least, um, stability, to some degree of like. Okay, this is what it means to be a christian, but it was based on doctrine instead of following christ. Because you can believe something, it doesn't mean you're going to actually do it. Jesus said hey, whatever the Pharisees tell you to do, do, but don't copy the way they're living their lives, because they're saying it but they're not doing it, and so you know you can believe the Nicene Creed. You can believe whatever creed or any other creeds. There are other creeds around. You can say, well, I believe this. You can say I believe Jesus is the son of God, but if you're not living that in your life, do you really believe it?
Coty:And so it's not carried out in your life.
James Early:So when we define Christianity by doctrine and I'm not saying doctrine is not important and I'm not saying doctrine is not important but when you define it only by doctrine, then where's the personal responsibility? Where does the rubber hit the road? It just becomes an intellectual debate. Athanasius and Arius were arguing in their camps. I mean, there were riots in the streets over their different opinions and these two men fought each other. They were bitter enemies. It was a political battle really, and if their belief in Jesus caused them to act in such an un-Jesus-like way, I'm not interested in their Jesus.
James Early:Now, that sounds kind of almost heresy in a way, but I'm looking at how did they live Jesus in their life? Jesus said love your enemies. I don't think there was any love between those two guys or their followers, and so that's why I say well, I'm just going to go back to Jesus and see what did Jesus tell me to do? Can we agree that? What does it mean to love your neighbors yourself? What does it mean to love your enemies? Let's agree on that and maybe we'll agree that it's hard to do, but that we can keep working at it till we get there.
Coty:Yeah, so why do you think Christians have gotten so comfortable, then, with being divided?
James Early:the human ego, the part of the human mind, of the human ego, the human heart, that has not yielded and surrendered to Christ, defends its own territory In the Lord's Prayer. Jesus taught us to pray to God, saying thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. But the implication is that we give up our little kingdom, our will, and we don't really want to do that. We're filtering everything we see. I say I'm speaking in general terms here because there are a lot of wonderful people that are working toward the bigger picture of unity in the church and really following Christ.
James Early:But you know, if you're looking at the world and what your church is doing and what you're trying to do, through the filter of what you want, your opinions, your perspectives, which is influenced by you, know the good and the bad things that have happened to you and whatever. That's not a clear lens to look through, and so I think it takes a lot of humility, it takes a whole lot of humility, to say okay, maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I don't have to be right, maybe I have to listen to somebody in a different church, a different denomination. Sometimes it's somebody in your own church you don't agree with um and and say, okay, let's, let's, let's find out well, why is that important to you, why is that particular thing so important to you, and just listen instead of trying to prove them, them wrong, and say, well, the bible says this, the bible says that. Yeah, you know, you can almost make the bible say anything if you take things out of context. So I don't know if I'm really answering your question, cody yeah, no, no, you did.
Coty:I like, I said I I'd be right there with you. Is it's, it's? Uh, you know, we live in a world that says to promote self, self, self, self, my, my, my Me-centric right, and in some real sense I would say that it is pride. Perhaps that keeps us divided, because we want to look different than the Catholics, as Protestants if that's who we've taken up issue with or as Catholics, we want to look different than the Lutherans or the Orthodox Church, and we're building this facade, this kingdom that will surely crumble.
Coty:Let's go back to this Tested by the Word of God, you know. So I you're leaning into something that I think is there, and can I prove it? I bet you, if we asked a thousand people, we could. So yeah, I think that there's just this pride there.
James Early:Let's go back to this metaphor of the body of Christ. You know, and we're all different places in the body of Christ. What if you know the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics and the whoever? You know all the different denominations? What if, instead of arguing with each other and said, well, you're acting like a foot, well, hello, I am a foot, you know? Oh, instead we say, oh, I'm grateful that you're a foot, I'm grateful you're doing what you're doing. You're doing things I can't do and I'm doing things you can't do. But let's work together in our own spheres of influence. And what if we all started appreciating everybody? And what if we all started appreciating everybody, not because we're trying to be right doctrinally and the doctrine I'm comparing to the hand or the foot, because the hand and the foot, or even a different body parts, even hand and foot, have some similarities, but a knee doesn't whatever. What if we started appreciating, even if we disagree with doctrinally, all these other denominations? What if we appreciated the fact that they are through to the highest degree that they're able to, or that they perceive they're trying to let their light shine in their love for Jesus? And you know, in spite of all the differences. What if we could just appreciate that about everyone and started looking through that lens? I think it would have a major impact on the Christian church within itself. But I think the world would feel the difference overnight if we really did that. Now, that's kind of a pipe dream, I realize that.
James Early:But one thing that's helped me in the way I pray about this, because, humanly, what can I do? I started a podcast and I talk about this sometimes on my show, and now you and I are talking about it, and I think the more people we engage with these ideas, it's helpful. But I'm not under any illusion that little old James Early is going to completely change everything. I'm going to do whatever God leads me to do. But the way I pray about this is I go back to something Jesus said when he started his ministry. He said hey, I've got great news the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Later on he says the kingdom of God is within you.
James Early:I don't think we've scratched the surface on what that really means, and so I think, okay, well, what's true about the body of Christ in heaven? Well, there is unity, and maybe we don't even remember what denomination we were in heaven. I don't know, don't? Maybe we don't even remember what denomination we were in heaven? I don't know. You know, but what if I'm kind of trying to picture that new heaven and new earth where there's no pain, no suffering, no sorrow, no sin? No, I'll add, there's no pride that's a sin there are no human opinions, there are no personal perspectives and and and all that stuff, and we just see the pure glory of God and we see the pure, radiant light of Christ and it's all so clear and we all agree on it completely in heaven.
James Early:And I'm thinking, okay, if Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, that reality, spiritually, I think, already exists. And I'm trying to bear witness to that, to focus on that what's true in heaven? Because, like I said in the Lord's prayer, jesus said we're praying for God's will in heaven to be the same thing here on earth. But you've got to start with what's true in heaven. You can't just rearrange the peas on the plate. That doesn't do anything. And I think that's what just trying to get everybody to agree on something humanly or a doctrine, there's no way that's going to ever happen.
Coty:Yeah, and I think that that's the thing. When we pray, we want our will to be done in heaven and on earth and we don't want the will of God to be done. Lord forbid that. But I think what you've brought up, it's perfect for where we're headed. So let's talk about what unity actually is and what it isn't. So unity doesn't mean uniformity. So unity doesn't mean uniformity. We don't all have to look alike, talk alike, sing alike or even agree on every risen salvation. By grace, through faith, we stand as one body. I'm reminded of a sermon that I got to read by John Wesley, and I think it captured perfectly what we're talking about, and it's his sermon on the Catholic spirit. He asked and that's powerful, I think because what he's saying is unity isn't about agreement on every issue. It's about charity and love in the middle of disagreement. But I think here's the tension we live in today. On one side, some churches confuse unity with compromise.
Coty:I would say maybe they water down the truth, they avoid conviction and think peace means silence and that's not unity, that's cowardice. And then on the other side we've got churches dividing over things that don't matter Styles, preferences, egos. Styles, preferences, egos. That's not holiness, that's that pride we were talking about. So unity, in my humble opinion, isn't compromise and unity isn't division. It's conviction wrapped in love, it's truth spoken with mercy. It's Christ at the center, not our opinion at the center. And now listen, that's my opinion and I know that's a mouthful in itself, but I think John Wesley in that sermon, the Catholic spirit, he just really captures what it means to be the church and I think we miss that.
James Early:Jesus said you will know my followers by their love for one another, not by their theological debates, not by their theological prowess, not by you know, all these things that we think define who we are as followers of Jesus. He said you'll know them by their love for each other, and you kind of put your finger on it. I love what the Wesleyan quote about you know, don't we love this? I mean, this is paraphrase Don't we love the same way? Love comes from God. That's the source, original source of love. We wouldn't be able to love if God hadn't wasn't. I mean, john says God is love. We reflect that we're made out of God's love, and so to me that's the essence of that, was the whole reason.
James Early:Jesus came to earth because God so loved the world. Because God so loved the world, he sent his own, he sent his son. And you know, if we, if we lose the love, and Jesus said, as I said earlier, jesus said love your enemies. That means, even if you really disagree with somebody theologically, you still love them, not as you know, not in a mean spirited way, but still love them. Not as you know, not in a mean-spirited way, but you love them, you treat them with love and respect, and that's hard to do. I get that, but that's what Jesus is calling us to do, and you know, if, if you're, if there's not love, well, back to first Corinthians, chapter 13,.
James Early:You know, though, I speak with the tongue of men and angels and do all these things that are all mighty and important, but if I don't have any love, I'm nothing. And and we, we need to come. I love the way you brought that back to love, because that just and we need to come. I love the way you brought that back to love because that's the focus, and I hear, I mean, if you're, you know, I don't care what church you're in, you just say, well, I'm right and everybody else is wrong. Maybe you are, but we could all be wrong, or we could all be partly wrong and the arrogance, frankly, of those men in 325 AD they thought they could vote and whatever they voted on, that's who Jesus would be. To me, that is human arrogance. For us to think, well, I'm right and you're wrong, and somebody else we disagree with thinks, no, I'm right, you're wrong. That's human arrogance. The pride that we're talking about when is the love? Show me the love and then we'll talk.
Coty:Yeah, I think we're very quick to divide over non-essentials, but so hesitant to fight for unity on the essentials and that just it doesn't make sense. It's a non-essential. We know the core essentials to being a Christian. That's the stuff that matters. The non-essential stuff isn't that big To them.
James Early:They are, they're crucial, because that's what they've been taught, and some of the things that you and I might think are essential, somebody else might think well, you know, that's not one of my essentials, you know. So there are all these different layers and degrees of things, and so what I have to do is whoever I'm talking to, even if they're not a Christian, I try to love them the way I would love Jesus. Jesus said if you do it into any of these, the least of me, these, my brethren, you've done it to me. It's like okay, I never know where he's going to show up. So what if you treated everyone, everyone you disagreed with, on whatever, whatever, what if you treated them with love? It doesn't mean you have to compromise what you believe. It doesn't mean you have to uh, you know, uh agree with them, but it means you can love them as a fellow creation, as a fellow human being, and I think the more that that's the thing that's going to bring. Unity is love.
Coty:Yeah, and that's an old hymnal, you know, they'll know we're a Christian by our love.
Coty:And I think that you know we're so quick to divide over the essentials. It's pride, but it's what we were taught and I told you while we talked before the cast that I started this with the heart. That it's okay to call the church out on her mistakes. It's okay, but when I started this I felt an uneasiness in doing that and I think it's because there's this said unsaid rule that you should defend the church and not say anything bad about her. And it's like I'm not saying the church isn't God's idea, because it is. But I think that that's also one of the reasons why we're so hell-bent on staying divided on non-essential issues, because my Baptist brothers and sisters, my Catholic brothers and sisters, my Orthodox, my Anglican, my United Methodist brothers and sisters, we're all trying to live a life that is going to lead people to Jesus, and I don't know if this is 100% a quote from Wesley, so don't cash that check.
Coty:But he said preach 90% of the law and 10% of the love, and in some real sense I lean into that understanding of scripture that I'm going to give you the hard stuff, but also I need you to hear Christ still loves you even though you're a sinner. You know, I can't expect you to, like, tomorrow, turn around and be the perfect Christian. I can't expect that from people. And you know, I'm reminded of that I was helping at a soccer practice yesterday and a guy was just cursing a lot and then he realized I was a pastor and he was like I'm sorry and I'm like you don't have to apologize for that. And for me it's like I can't expect you to behave in a Christlike manner if you don't know Christ. And that's what I I didn't say that to him, but I'm thinking that in my head. But would you like to know Christ? But yeah, I think it does. It does come down to you know, our love for God and our love for neighbor, and I think that that in itself is very Wesleyan.
James Early:That goes totally back to what Jesus said. And I want to say one thing about you're talking about calling out the church and whether that's the right thing to do or you kind of step on eggshells sometimes for that idea. But back to this idea of you brought up about, you know, getting rid of the plank in our own eye first. I think anytime we feel a need to call out other people, whether it's a church, whether it's an individual or a bunch of churches or whatever we have to first take an honest look at ourselves, because otherwise we're a hypocrite and it is so easy to find the faults in someone else when they're doing it. Sometimes the very things that bother us the most about someone else, we're doing it and we don't realize that we're doing it ourselves.
James Early:And so I would just say to you, to myself, to everyone listening you know it's easy to find where you think somebody else is not doing it quite right. So take it up first, take a look at yourself and say, okay, has my pride gotten in the way? Do I think I'm right and everybody else is wrong? But I like to straighten those people out. You know, blah, blah, blah. Or am I coming from a sense of I'm going to love them and am I going to try to understand where they're coming from. It doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but I just think that's important for us to start with ourselves, because that clears our vision. Like Jesus said, you get that out of your eye, then you can see more clearly to help somebody else clearly to help somebody else, okay, and that kind of leads to where we're going next, and it's you know.
Coty:I think here's where it hits home. Most Christians agree unity is important. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that would say it's not, but they have no idea what to actually do about it. They'll nod their heads but keep living siloed. If unity really matters, we have to move beyond theory and into practice. So I guess a question that I want to ask you is you know what are, what are some first steps churches can take to build unity in their own communities?
James Early:Well, I guess there has to be a willingness and there has to maybe be a recognition that you weren't doing it already. But because you know, if you're not, and then I think it's important to look at your motives. What are your motives? Is your secret motive to really kind of try to prove that you're right? After all, that's not going to fly very well. If your motive is genuinely just to love the other churches, the other community, the rest of everybody else in your community, that's a noble, holy motive.
James Early:I know a lot of communities have clergy councils or associations of all the different churches in their town and they meet once a month or they have meetings, they do joint projects sometimes. Yeah, we are pretty siloed. I mean, I'm not going to visit all the different churches in my community all the time. I'm going to my church and that's normal. You want to go where you feel you're supposed to be. But if churches I know, like in where we go to church in that town, they have a joint Thanksgiving service and that's for everybody, not just Christians, then there is a Good Friday. Sometimes there's a Good Friday service and so all the churches get together. You know, whoever wants to from any church can come there for those services and it's a time to share in some of our common, you know, traditions, common common, uh, uh, heritage.
James Early:I think, beyond that, it's the willingness to understand why somebody believes something different from you. I saw this great video this is a couple of years ago and it was a very conservative Christian and a very liberal Christian and they sat them at a table and they just had them start talking and they just they were saying, well, where do you live? You know you're married, you have kids, what you know? Where'd you grow up? They got to know each other's people and then and there were some guided, there was a guided path there on you know how to get into the conversation. Finally they got into deeper you know, spiritual, religious stuff. And they they realized that, oh gosh, you know? Oh, I see it a little differently than that why? And they were having a conversation instead of you idiots, how can you believe that? You idiots, how can you believe that? Which?
James Early:is I mean that's all in the news right now between the conservative Christians and the liberals, and I mean we put all these labels on ourselves and other people and we're creating the divisions.
James Early:We're just making the divisions even more. But if you got down and sat with someone at a table and just got to know them as a person and this is happening in places I've seen lots of videos of this kind of thing, where they disagree sometimes on some major theological, what you might say are essential points, but they've learned to love each other as people, and so then they say, oh okay, well, I see it a little differently, but I'm your friend and I love you and we can work together toward whatever you know. And I think to answer get back to your real question is what steps can we take? I think there has to be a desire for this to happen. If you're sort of still proud that your church is right and everybody else is wrong, well, you need to have a big piece of humble pie, and that's not. Humble pie tastes really good once you start eating it about halfway through, but it's hard to take that first bite and so. But it's totally worth it.
Coty:Well, and it's like people are fed these lies that you know, I've seen it and heard it and have experienced it, that, oh, since you disagree with me, you don't like me, you hate me, and it's like no, that's not what I'm saying.
Coty:I'm saying that I see it differently, and we can still be friends and see it differently, and unfortunately, you know, a lot of people don't want to be friends after you tell them that you see something differently. That is major enough to them and that's just. It's really unfortunate. But I think what you're saying you know.
Coty:It's practical for the church to take the steps, and I think it's practical for the believer as well, because to know that you have a problem, you have to recognize it first, and I think the first step is recognizing that you have a problem with being right, but you want unity.
Coty:So you then have to begin to operate from a different perspective, a different lens.
Coty:You have to pivot, if you will, in a direction that might be uncomfortable at first, but at the end of the day, do we not all love the same?
Coty:Do we not all want to lead people to Christ so that they know Him intimately, where they do lay down thy kingdom and they promote his kingdom, right, uh, and I think that that that, unfortunately, we're having to figure out how to navigate through the, the lie that a whole generation has been told that if someone disagrees with you then they hate you or they dislike you and I just think that that's wild and I would have never thought that, and I'm 31, and I don't know where that started or how that began but boy, that is so divisive and it's not going to help in the grand scheme of things, especially when it comes to unity. But I think what you're saying, like I said, definitely it helps the church community, but it helps the individual believer as a whole, because you, like you said, you first have to recognize that you're not operating from a place of unity. Instead, you're operating from a place of disunity.
James Early:So, cody, I want to ask you why is this idea of unity in the body of Christ so important to you?
Coty:I think the Lord is doing something. I can't tell you what it is, I can't lay my finger on it and say, aha, it's that. But I grew up pretty churched. I was drugged to church for a while and I didn't really take up faith until I was probably 13 or 14. But even then I would go to church at this non-dom or I would go over here to the Nazarene or I'd go over here to the Methodist, and sometimes it was just wherever my friends were.
Coty:But you know, and sitting at the Pentecostal church, you know, I've kind of been everywhere and you know what I've noticed is we're all pointing people to the same person. We just have a different means about doing it. You know, pentecostals might say their worship is more spiritual than that of the Methodist church or that of the Baptist church. But at the end of the day, we're all trying to get folks to the means, and the means is that they were created. They're a sinner in need of being saved. And if we can put away that, you know, the Baptists worship this way, the Methodists worship this way. There's liturgy here and there's no liturgy. Like if we could put that away, I guess.
Coty:For me it's just that I feel like God is stirring the church back to unity, back to fellowship with one another, and I think that you know COVID in my opinion, back in 2020, you know, when church was not essential. You know how dare the church back down in a time of crisis when, historically, the church has always stepped up? We've backed down and I think, because of that, we've seen, I think, in some real sense, a great awakening. You know, the sheep being separated and the goats being separated, if you will, of people that actually do believe what the holy and air and infallible word of God says.
Coty:And then those that had just made a game out of it or that just did it because mom and dad did it and now I must do it just to keep them happy until they die, and then maybe I'll stop attending. But I think God is up to something and I think that something is this unifying of the body of Christ. I don't know how it's going to look, I don't know how he's going to do it. He might be coming soon, in fact he probably is, but he's doing something and I sense that in my spirit and since I have that sense, I just feel the need and the fire to call the church back Back to holiness, back to obedience in Christ and back to loving one another with a Christ-like love. Looking at the world through the eyes of Jesus.
Coty:Yeah totally and not our own. That's absolutely it. So Jesus said in John 17 that the world would know we belong to him by our unity. That means our division doesn't just hurt us. In my opinion, it destroys our credibility with the world. So let's stop pretending that unity is optional. It's central to our witness, and I guess a question that I have for you is how do you think division in the church has damaged our witness to unbelievers?
James Early:Well, you kind of already said it in a way, the people who see that and that's their only contact with the Christian churches. You know Christians arguing amongst themselves. They're like why should I be part of that? It doesn't make it very attractive. Themselves, they're like why should I be part of that? It doesn't make you very attractive. What if they thought, wow, those Baptists and those Catholics and those Methodists, they don't agree on everything, but boy, they sure love each other. I want to be part of that. You know, I think there's nothing more attractive in this world than love On the surface, no-transcript, and that's like the core need of ours. And when they don't feel that love from the churches, the way they're behaving toward each other, like well, that wouldn't help me. That kind of bickering sometimes it's bickering within a given local church. You know who wants to be part of that.
James Early:But if there was so much love, there's an interesting story. I think it's in the Decameron or in the canterbury tales, which are old, old books, and they're all these stories. I think it's the decameron. Some guy has a jewish friend and he wants him to. Uh, he's trying to get him to convert to christianity. And so the jewish guy says no, no, no, no, no, uh. And so finally the jewish man says well, I'll tell you what. I'll go down to Rome and see what things are at the fountainhead of the Christian church. I'll go down and see what things are like in Rome and then I'll decide. So he leaves and his friend thinks, oh my gosh, he's going to go see all that corruption in the church and he'll never become a Christian. Well, he goes down there. So two or three years later he runs into his friend again. He said hey, guess what? I became a Christian. He said, really, even after you went to see all the corruption in Rome and you saw that, he said I went down there. I couldn't believe how, how materialistic they all were and everything. But then I went out in the provinces and they were, they were taking care of people, they were. There was so much love from the churches to the people and they were, you know, they were feeding the poor and whatever it was. I read this like 30 years ago, I don't remember all the details. And he said I thought so.
James Early:The fellow said if, if something could be so messed up and still have that good effect on people, I thought there must be something to it. He was feeling and of course that's just a story but he was feeling the love and I think we keep coming back to that as the answer. When there's no love, would you want to be part of any kind of a group where there was always arguing or fighting, or you're always ready to combat that other person, the other church? They're the enemy, like you said way back earlier in this conversation. What if we were united in opposing the real enemy, satan? That would be a different, that would be a very different kind of a feel and we wouldn't be pitted against each other. I, I, I'm, I'm kind of going around the inner circle, but um, it, it, to me, it, it, uh, it all comes back to that love.
Coty:Yeah, and, like you know, another thing that you, you know, I just thought of is, like what's at stake if we don't take jesus's prayer for unity seriously?
James Early:well, then, means that we don't really take jesus seriously because, as you said, john 17 he says he's praying, he's praying, he's praying. He knows what's about to happen to him and he's about to be crucified, and yet he's praying for everybody else. He's praying for you and me, everybody from now on. He's praying for everybody that will ever believe in him. It's like, you know, if I knew that I was about to be executed, I don't know that I would be praying for unborn generations. You know what love that he had, what love he had for us, and his prayer was that we would all have that oneness with God and him and each other that he experienced. And I love that question because I never thought of it what are the implications if we don't take this seriously? It was like we might as well just spit in Jesus's face. Well, I like some of the things you said, jesus, but that one no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to go there. That no Jesus said if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. I mean, that wasn't really a commandment, that was a prayer. But I find great comfort that he prayed that, because Jesus said, when he was about to raise Lazarus out of the grave. He said Father, I know you always hear me. I know Thank you for answering my prayer. I know thank you for answering my prayer. I know you always have heard me.
James Early:I believe Jesus said that prayer and that it is. It is as you said. I think the Holy Spirit is doing something now in the churches and we may not, like you said, see what it is or understand it completely, but I feel the same thing. I felt it for several years now. I think something big is stirring, the Holy Spirit is stirring the pot and I just want to be on the right side of that. You know, back to this thing of Jesus' prayer, we're either on the side of that prayer being answered or we're not. We're either fighting for unity or we're fighting against it.
Coty:We're either fighting with Jesus or against him. Yeah, it's like if we don't take Jesus' prayer for unity seriously, I haven't had a long time to think about this, but here's what's at stake the world won't believe us, the church won't have power, the next generation won't stick around and ultimately, we'll be disobeying the very prayer prayed before the cross. Unity is not extra credit, it's mission critical. It's mission critical If you hear nothing else today. That's what I think we need to grasp on. It's not this extra credit, additive thing, it's mission critical. Now, unity can sound impossible, but I believe the Holy Spirit makes it possible and, honestly, if the church ever got serious about unity, I think we would see revival. I think we absolutely would see revival break out across the world, across the globe.
James Early:But we got to take it serious first, you're absolutely right, cody, and I will say this to you, to me myself and to everyone listening you don't have to wait for the church to do their thing. You don't have to wait for someone to give you permission to start bearing witness to the unity in the body of Christ, because Christ himself is not divided into parts. You know that whole thing of the body of Christ. That's a metaphor Paul was talking about, but Christ himself is not divided into warring camps, and I think that we have to start with the unity within Christ himself, because the body of Christ is the metaphor for the church. That's a well, there's so many different ways to say it, but that's an offspring of that. That's a manifestation of what's already true about Christ, and so you can start that right now.
James Early:Wherever you are, whoever you know Maybe there's somebody in another church, that you have, a friend that's in another church and you don't understand their doctrines or their practices or whatever you know call them up and say, hey, hey, joe, let's get together for coffee. I'm not here to debate, I just want to understand why those things are important to you, and then don't. You don't even have to say why you feel the way you feel, unless they ask you, unless there's a genuine desire to understand where you're coming from. But you're just going to to learn and appreciate and try to see it from their perspective. Again, you don't have to agree or disagree with them so much, it's just learning to appreciate them. So what if each one of us did that? Start where you are and get to know somebody else in the body of christ and feel a sense of unity, uh, with them.
James Early:And you know it's not gonna, we can't wait for somebody else to do this, because the my, my sense of it is the church as a whole. It's not going to be a top-down thing, it's going to be a bottom-up thing. It's going to be starting with individuals like you, like me, like everyone listening here today. It's going to start with little individual actions and there's a wonderful little poem. I don't remember the poem, but the idea is that big doors swing on little hinges. A little key opens a big door. So a little action on your part can be part of something much bigger, and you know that's.
Coty:I think that's what I think, that's where we have to start. I would like to give you the opportunity to give us some hope before we bring this thing to a close. So what gives you hope that unity can actually happen in our time?
James Early:What gives me hope is that I have learned to do what I just was talking about. I have. I have learned that I can. With the people that are in my sphere of influence, I can talk to them. I can, I can start to build unity with you know whoever I come in contact with and I know if that's possible, possible for me, I know it's possible for others and I'm seeing glimmers of this across many different denominational boundaries.
James Early:I'm seeing people starting to kind of question some of their traditions or ways of doing things that they've been taught and realizing wait a minute, I just want to get back to what Jesus said. There's, I see, a turning back to the message, the original message of Jesus, and um, and so the more that, the more that we focus on that instead of the things that have happened in the 2,000 years since and not to say that those things aren't important. They've been stepping stones to whatever. But let's get back to that original and I'm just seeing signs of that. It gives me an immense hope. Thing that gives me hope even more than that is I feel in my spirit, the Holy Spirit at work, not just in me but in the whole world, doing something Kind of like you said you feel it, you sense it. You don't know exactly what it is. You see little bits of sunshine come through the dark clouds once in a while. I know something's going on and you know Paul says we walk by faith and not by sight. I don't. I see a little bit of evidence, but it's more of a sense of what God is saying to me. Hey, I've got this and you don't have to wait for anybody else, you can just get on with you. Look and see what. I'm not saying this very well, I think. Well, I'll go back to the way Jesus said it. He said whatever I see, jesus said I can't do anything by myself. Jesus said that I only do what I see the Father do. Whatever I see the Father do, I can do. That's what I do. What if we had that mindset? What if we thought I'm going to watch what God is doing and that's my goal?
James Early:I don't always get very close to it, but sometimes I touch this a little bit. I say God, show me what you're doing for unity right now in the body of Christ. And you know, it's not like I see literally anything, but I start to feel like, okay, this is possible because it's God's will. I mean, that's the bottom line. I guess this is a really good question. Nobody's ever asked me this question before. It's because it's God's will. That's what gives me hope and I have to get out there and let my light shine and do whatever I can to bring it.
James Early:I used to feel like I was probably the little toenail in the body of Christ, but I'm realizing now I'm part of the skin, because that's what unifies the body. The skin covers the whole body. That's part of who I am and um and so I've just I've got it and whatever, whatever your position in the body of christ is anybody listening? Be who god made you to be, not what other people tell you you're supposed to be. Be who god made you to be and love it and appreciate what God made others to be. Just love it all, yeah.
Coty:So what gives me hope is Jesus himself. He doesn't pray prayers that can't be answered. Yes, absolutely. If John 17 was right before the cross, he prayed for his followers to be one. That means unity isn't some pipe dream. It's a promise God can actually bring about through his spirit. I see glimpses of it already. Every time believers from different traditions drop the walls and come together to serve the poor, to worship or to pray. It's a taste of the unity Jesus prayed for. Every time someone chooses grace over gossip, reconciliation over resentment, or humility over pride, it's evidence that God is still moving and his church, he's still moving, his church toward oneness. So, yes, the division is real, but the spirit is stronger, and I believe revival is always tied to unity. That gives me hope that we can see in our time if we're willing to humble ourselves and fight for it. So, james, thank you for being here today and for reminding us what's at stake when it comes to unity. Friends, james has created a link for us today to help us know how to live more like Jesus, and that link is that's https.
Coty:Colon backslash, backslash thebiblespeakstoyoucom. Backslash, uncomfortable backslash. If you will go check that out, there's plenty of things material there for you to get to know James. He also has his own podcast and I encourage you to go listen to him because he has had great things to say today here and to those listening. Unity isn't optional, it's essential. Let's stop talking about it and start living it. And as I always say to you guys, and my call always is stay faithful, stay uncomfortable and stay in the fight. And Wesley said, the best of all is Christ is with us, and I would say even better than that is God is not done with you yet, amen.
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