Hugh Howey is the special guest this week on Tipsy Nerds Book Club. The Tipsy Nerds discuss Hugh's international bestseller, Wool, and Hugh's adventures while sailing around the world in his boat, Wayfinder. This week's featured cocktail is a flaming, layered shooter inspired by the stratified world of the silo, and is called the "Silo 17". Natalie is sipping a new take on an Old Fashioned, Hugh's cocktail of choice, while Hugh grabbed what was in the fridge at 6 am! Stay tuned until the end for the May contest announcement.
Join the conversation on Instagram or Facebook, and let us know your thoughts on any of the media mentioned in our shows. https://www.instagram.com/tipsynerdsbookclub/ https://www.facebook.com/tipsynerdsbookclub
Hugh Howey is the special guest this week on Tipsy Nerds Book Club. The Tipsy Nerds discuss Hugh's international bestseller, Wool, and Hugh's adventures while sailing around the world in his boat, Wayfinder. This week's featured cocktail is a flaming, layered shooter inspired by the stratified world of the silo, and is called the "Silo 17". Natalie is sipping a new take on an Old Fashioned, Hugh's cocktail of choice, while Hugh grabbed what was in the fridge at 6 am! Stay tuned until the end for the May contest announcement.
Join the conversation on Instagram or Facebook, and let us know your thoughts on any of the media mentioned in our shows. https://www.instagram.com/tipsynerdsbookclub/ https://www.facebook.com/tipsynerdsbookclub
You're listening to the Tipsy Nerds Book Club Podcast, your home for the best of science fiction and fantasy with a twist. Whether you prefer your stories with dragons or aliens, your beverages shaken or stirred. Fill your glass, relax and join the conversation with your hosts, Scifi and fantasy authors, and proud tipsy nerds, Natalie Wright and RS Dabney.
Natalie Wright:How would you like to win a signed copy of Wool by Hugh Howey, and other nerdy swag? Stay tuned until the end of the episode for an announcement about our May contest and how you can win these and other fabulous prizes. A special thank you to our newest patron on Patreon Raelee Gold who purchased a top shelf Martini. We appreciate Raelee and all of our sponsors who help to keep the lights on here at Tipsy Nerd's Book Club. So cheers to you Raylee. This episode of Tipsy Nerds Book Club podcasts supported by author CD Tavenor and his new science fiction release, First of Their Kind. Check out the very cool cover and blurb for the book on the season one page of our website, at tipsynerdsbookclub.com. Welcome, tipsy nerds, book lovers, SciFi fans, curiosity seekers to episode four of the Tipsy Nerd Book Club. Today we will be discussing the international bestseller Wool. I am your host Natalie Wight, and with me is cohost Robyn Dabney. Hello Robyn.
Robyn Dabney:Hi Natalie. I'm already a little bit tipsy. How are you today?
Natalie Wright:I'm doing well. You sound like you're also doing well.
Robyn Dabney:I am. I have this awesome drink I've created for today's book and I'm really excited to have our guest here with us today, Hugh Howey, to talk about his book, Wool.
Natalie Wright:Yes, we have Hugh Howey in the house today. Hugh of course is the author of the book we'll be discussing, Wool. He's an international bestselling author, a sailor, world traveler, a champion of indie authors everywhere, and an all around just really cool guy. So we're very excited to have a chat with Hugh Howey today. Hi Hugh, how are you doing?
Hugh Howey:I'm doing good. Already a little tipsy.
Natalie Wright:Okay. Well we're going to start with, with you Hugh, and hear about what's in your glass and just so listeners know by the time this airs, you know, it'll be a completely different time, but Hugh, what time is it in the morning where you are right now?
Hugh Howey:Um, it's just, it's almost 6:00 AM
Natalie Wright:All right. And what's in your glass?
Hugh Howey:Well since it, since it's six o'clock in the morning, I didn't want to do something too complex. So I actually poured my usual six o'clock beverage and it's just um, some straight up Tequila. Asuleojos. It's a really beautiful bottle. It happens to be what it was in the fridge and I'm drinking it out of a Saki Cup in order to mix the cultural influences here. Yeah. I haven't had anything to eat yet. So, and I, I'm a lightweight, don't drink a lot. So
Robyn Dabney:Drinking Tequila at 6:00 AM is a very solid breakfast strategy.
Hugh Howey:Yeah. Just saying that when, when I blocked the day off my calendar for you ladies, I blocked the whole day off because this is probably going to ruin me.
Natalie Wright:Well we appreciate that.
Robyn Dabney:You'll to go take a nap after this.
Natalie Wright:Yeah, we really love that you are embracing it.
Hugh Howey:Is napping what you call passing out? What you call it, passing out.
Robyn Dabney:Yes, exactly. Napping is passing out for adults.
Hugh Howey:I'll call it a nap too. Yeah, that sounds healthy. I'll call it a nap as well. What I'll do.
Robyn Dabney:Yeah, perfect.
Natalie Wright:You're just going to have a little power nap afterward, so that's awesome.
Hugh Howey:Exactly.
Natalie Wright:Hugh is embracing the whole vibe of Tipsy nerds. I want to save you for last Robin, because your drink is the most exciting one today. I heard through the grapevine, well the grapevine, no. I heard from Hugh directly that his favorite drink is an Old Fashioned. So I went on a search for a new take on an Old Fashioned and it's really lovely. It's a fig vanilla orange infused syrups with Bourbon, and I'm doing Maker's Mark today because I was feeling it for the Maker's Mark bourbon, and some orange in there. It's really, it's so good. Yeah.
Hugh Howey:I'm jealous.
Natalie Wright:Well if you were here, which you're not, I would make one for you, but maybe some time. And uh, Robin, what are you drinking? Tell us all about this.
Robyn Dabney:So I have made a layered shooter that I am calling the"Silo 17," obviously inspired by silo 17 in the book. There are three layers to this drink and it kind of reminds me of being back in college because it's really strong. So I—on the bottom layer representing the down deep—I've got rum Chata you could also use Bailey's if you wanted to. I just am more of a rum chata fan. And then above that I've got Goldschlager, which again, this is taking me back to my college days, but I have representing the mid levels. Uh, IT, it just seems kind of like a foofy fancy mid level type of drink. And then on top I've got 151, or any other really strong proof rum, it kind of has that same hazy color that I picture the windows having before a cleaning happens. And it also lights on fire really well, which is kind of the purpose of this drink. I was inspired by the front cover of the book also for that final touch. So you've got this beautiful three layer drink representing kind of the three layers of the silo and then you torch that baby and it's got this beautiful blue flame on top of it. Sort of a terrifying drink. I'm going to work really hard to get through this interview, um, and not be totally falling all over the place. But yeah, it's a really cool drink.
Hugh Howey:I love the concept you came up with it. That's amazing. Now, I want to make one of those and I think it should be a immortalized as the silo 17. That's such a great name for a drink too.
Robyn Dabney:I will get recipes and photos posted online when the show airs. So anybody out there who wants to make this look for it on our Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, our website, and please duplicate it and send us some photos.
Natalie Wright:Great. And be careful Robyn and any of you tipsy nerds that tries to drink. First of all, we absolutely, want you to make one and send us photos of it. Tag us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. We want to see it tag Hugh. We want to see your silo 17 co uh, drinks. But please be careful. Don't like burn your eyebrows off or like burn your house down. Make sure it goes out
Hugh Howey:Only you can prevent Silo fires.
Robyn Dabney:I love that you bring up a good point, Natalie. This thing is on fire. So before you drink it, please blow it out and maybe blow it out twice because the first time I lit it on fire I blew it out and I thought it was out, but there was this like thin layer of fire still on it. So again, we like this cool drink but really like make sure that fire is out before you pour that down your throat.
Natalie Wright:So Hugh, for anyone listening who is not already read Wool, there might be a few people out there that haven't. Could you give us a little bit of a setup about the book?
Hugh Howey:So the, it's a story about people living underground who have no idea how they got there, how long they've been there or that they've ever lived anywhere else. And as the power structure of the silo they live in, starts to break down. People begin to uncover and question their origins. And at the center of the story is this mechanic named Juliette who comes from the very bottom of the silo of this, the Mechanical Depths of the silo. And it's a very stratified society. And she gets promoted into a position as silos sheriff that she's kind of ill equipped but perfectly suited for and she's very obstinate. And in this position she starts to poke into places that she shouldn't and the results are pretty catastrophic and awesome.
Robyn Dabney:Awesome is a great way to describe it. This was my first time reading Wool, and I was completely pulled into the book. It was such a cool take on this dystopian genre that I really hadn't seen before.
Natalie Wright:Yeah, definitely. You know, I first read Wool back I think when it came out probably in 2012, and I just read it again and I have to say, Wool. I—Wool— I, I don't know why I keep calling you that!
Hugh Howey:It could be the alcohol.
Robyn Dabney:I mean, it's a really common name.
Natalie Wright:Wool[laughter]
Robyn Dabney:You know, like Bob, Tom, Wool.
Natalie Wright:Yeah. Well, Robyin and I say this all the time. We have a built in excuse for how idiotic we may sound from time to time. It's because we're drinking while we're talking, but yes—
Hugh Howey:I'm gonna start writing drunk. So like any typo, I'll be like I'm drunk, what do you expect to come on?
Robyn Dabney:Yes, that's a fantastic idea.
Natalie Wright:Right, exactly. It's the bourbon. Okay, Hugh. I loved it just as much if not more the second time that I read it. So it's a really wonderful book and anyone who hasn't read it, I think Robyn and I both really highly recommend it. Would you agree Robyn?
Robyn Dabney:Absolutely. I have already ordered the second book in the series. I'm hooked. I'm a fan. I think it's something that any fan of Dystopian literature should definitely take a look at it.
Hugh Howey:Well, I I think, I think the lesson here is that if you enjoyed it even more the second time, that everyone, yeah, I think everyone should go out and buy two copies so that they enjoy the second reading even better.
Robyn Dabney:Yeah. I mean by the second book or just buy the first book twice. Either way, you're good to go.
Hugh Howey:That's where, that's where you're heading with this, right?
Natalie Wright:For sure.
Robyn Dabney:However you go about buying this series, it's definitely worth reading.
Natalie Wright:Well yeah, we absolutely want people to to read the book. But Hugh, I have a question. I have many questions for you, but one question I have is I was listening to a prior interview of you from some years back, and you were talking about your inspiration for Wool and you were talking about how like an early death of a beloved animal companion was one of the inspirations for the story. I don't know if you remember, I don't know what interview it was at this point, but that really struck me as interesting because I wouldn't have really seen that in the book. And I wondered if you could expand on that a little bit more. Like what did you mean by that? What was going on and how did that, how is that reflected in? Yeah.
Hugh Howey:Yeah. So I didn't, I didn't write this all out as a full novel, actually wrote, I guess you'd call it a novelette, it was about 12 to 13,000 words in the original piece. It was a departure from everything that I was writing at the time. And it was in my mind the least commercial thing that I had written. And, uh, it was more catharsis and just for myself than anything else. I had just, I was in a really dark place after losing a dog of nine years that I'd hoped I would have a few more years with. And, not having kids, that dog was like a like a child to me. Right. And one of the most difficult things I've ever been through. And yeah, so I wrote a story that was like a completely different tone and a lot darker and not to spoil too much, but like there are permanent consequences in this short story. A lot of characters are lost and, uh, it doesn't have the brightest of endings. And I had never really written anything like that. So when I put it on Amazon for 99 cents, I just published it because I don't believe in keeping things unpublished. Yeah. I was really surprised that this was the thing that that took off and launched my writing career because, um, it was not written with any of that in mind. Uh, later when I had a lot of demand for more than this in the story, I had to flush it out into a novel. And I think the theme of grief pretty much self contained in that first bit. So I don't know that the inspiration carries on into the rest of the book, but it's definitely what got the whole thing started.
Natalie Wright:That's amazing. I, I mean, I definitely upon rereading I would say that one of the things I really noticed was your treatment of Marnes and Jahns and uh, Holston. Now I'm a little bit older. I think the first time I read it, I really related to those characters so very much and felt that you really nailed the experience of aging, and of regret, and of like the knowledge that the clock is ticking, that you know that they're moving towards the end of their life in a way that I hadn't really noticed before when I read it. And so how old were you when you wrote the story?
Hugh Howey:Uh, I was probably 34 maybe 33 or 34 which is quite young. But that notion of time slipping away is something that I've been like morbidly focused on and terrified by since I was very young. Probably 11 or 12 started thinking about, that was a dark period of my life where I was like writing poetry about death and losing my faith and realizing that at some point in the past, not too distant past, I didn't exist and that was going to happen again in the future and I wouldn't remember anything that ever happened and all that really nihilistic stuff that I think a lot of a lot of people go through at some point in their life and that motivated me really early on to not put things off like things that I've dreamed about doing. I always assumed I would only have like 40 years for some reason on earth. And I think doing that was a conscious effort to not put off any of my dreams and not get caught into a career and a debt cycle where I was having to just earn money to spend what I was living off of until I was like 65 and then see what kind of health and money and time I have left to do the things and I wanted to do. Yeah. The fear of mortality in the sense that we don't have a lot of time on earth has been a huge motivator in my personal life. I think it comes out in a lot of my writing as well.
Natalie Wright:That's incredibly fascinating. I, I can, I can see that
Hugh Howey:I need another drink now. This has been uplifting[laughter]
Natalie Wright:Yes, uplifting. Well, But on the other hand, I mean I kind of relate to what you're saying because my husband and I have been together a very long time and his parents were the kind of people that never did anything and Save, Save, Save, Save, save. And it's like we're going to do this when we retire. And then pretty much as soon as they retired, they got both got very ill and couldn't do anything and so they really kind of never went anywhere and did anything. And so we've been like, fuck it, we're going to spend all our money, like just live. Just kind of live a life and try to travel and do what we wanted to do. So I can relate to that, to that sentiment. And I think it's fascinating how that comes out in your, in your writing. But I also just want to say that I was really moved by your treatment of these older folks in the book. It's, I think some of the best, uh, part of it for me is you know, how they, how they are at the beginning.
Hugh Howey:Thanks. Yeah. It's funny how we don't get a lot of, um, feedback about how so many of my characters don't make it to the end of, of my books. And I think it's, I think it's sad that that's not more common because that's, you know, every fictional character is going to die at some point. They, most of them are mortal and that's inevitable end, and we don't get to see the end of very many characters stories because we don't want to, I guess a fender upset the reader. But for me as a completionist, like I would love to know these characters that I really love. I would love to know what the last day is or what the, the full arc of their life is like. And it's, it's funny to me that for, and I think this is true for myself as a reader. Like, I'm, I'm shocked when a character I love dies on the page in front of me, but also appreciate the honesty of it because part of me knows that's going to happen for all the characters. And I love and not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I guess it's the same way that some people can only eat meat because they don't think about where it comes from. And uh, I would rather, you know, I'd rather any kind of art or entertainment, like be discomforting and honest and real and impactful. And as someone who enjoys that on the consumption end, it's the kind of stories or I like to create like something that you'll remember and not just be entertained by in the moment.
Natalie Wright:Right. Absolutely. And what was one of those books that for me, like for, for days, if not a week or so after reading it, I was still thinking about it, thinking about what I'd read, thinking about the meaning, thinking about the characters. And we've only just talked about sort of the beginning, but there's this, we don't want to give to me things away or spoil it, but Juliette has a fascinating story. You know, Hollywood keeps trying to make these quotes strong female characters and it's sort of a thing now to have the quote strong female care. And we talked a lot about what that means and we just felt that Juliet is probably one of the strongest characters, male or female we've ever read. I mean, this woman just, you know, she is a never give up kind of person. What inspired you to write jewels? I mean, is there any, are there any real life people, male nor female or, or beings that you know, that help inspire you to create this character that just never gives up and will fight to the death for her people? You know, she's just there for her people.
Hugh Howey:Yeah, I would definitely say my, I was raised by a single mom. She at one point was working three jobs to keep the, keep the lights on for the three kids that she was raising by herself. And my little sister Molly is just an amazing person, like is not just doesn't feel peer pressure. So she's one of the people who's like her own person in a way that very few people are, which I'll you know, allows us like a dichotomy of um, conflicting kind of personality traits to all mix because she's not, you know, trying to fit into a vessel. Right. And I would say my mom and my sister just because they were the two people closest to me, it's not that they were like female influences in my life. They were just influences in my life. Right. And I think the other thing when I, when I write, I, I write as a reader who wants to read a story I haven't read before. I can't write a story unless I'm really into it for my own curiosity peaked and wanting to see what happens next. So there, I think there's just stories missing from the marketplace. I love finding those gaps and trying to just slot, you know, one book and that, that very large gap that other people are also filling as well. What has always bothered me about the, the strong female character trope is that we basically take what we think of as typically male testosterone based kind of traits and put them into a woman and you know, give a woman like muscles and make her physically strong and aggressive and angry. And I don't know, we basically put a a male hero into a female body and say, look what we did. And I think the, the, the strength of women in my life has been physical power, but more than that, like what arises out of someone who has a level of compassion or an ability to think through a problem while also figuring out how it's going to impact other people with nuance rather than Boulder's in their way through a problem. Yeah. I mean it's, you don't want to be stereotypical like all women are this way and all men are that way because that's, that's nonsense. Everybody's on a spectrum. But there is a flavor for what an amazing female influence in your life has felt like versus a male influence. When I think of the teachers who inspired me though the women in my life have definitely been more nurturing than the men who were more like brow beating. Some of that is my bias and how I see an absorb their influences, but I do think that there are differences across the gender spectrum and we should celebrate and highlight those rather than saying like what makes a strong female character strong is that she asked like, well we think of as a, as a male hero. I think that's just a too easy of an of an out and the reality should be a lot more complex.
Natalie Wright:Well, I 100% agree with you and when I tried to talk with people about is the concept of agency and wool. Juliet has tons of agencies, you know, she is there to live her own story. She is not a window dressing or someone on the arm, somebody else. She doesn't serve the story by serving the needs of another character.
Hugh Howey:A big thing that was happening when I was writing wall was the, the love triangle people were reading about female protagonist who's like number one challenge of life was trying to figure out how to choose between like two really awesome mail shooters, you know, the, the twilight series and hunger games. Just like some of the biggest series of, of young adult and just, you know, Scifi fantasy had a problem, which I've never encountered in my life where I had like two amazingly hot people who both wanted me at the same time. And like Mike Torture is trying to figure which one like flip a coin like a, and maybe that's the award most of us are sitting there going like I would take, I would take half of one of those people, you know, after me. And I think that's just really cool what you're saying about agency because that is that when that becomes the plot, like your character arc is choosing which guy is going to make you happy, that's just not satisfying to me. I don't want to, I don't want to tell a story like that and I don't want to read it. And I actually almost didn't have a romantic arc for Juliet at all it because I was kind of rebelling against this idea. Right. And with, with wool almost didn't have a, the first draft didn't have a romantic connection at all and I had to realize, yeah, that's a little too unrealistic and added Lucas in in a way that it became central to the story but not central to her story. That was something I deliberately was like trying to avoid because I think you can live a full life without, you know, having to create a family or have to live at for someone else, if you can make that connection happen and if you can have that family, that's awesome. But I think we tend to treat that as like the only way to live a life and and thank goodness life is a lot more complex than that.
Natalie Wright:Right, exactly. Well the relationship between Lucas and Juliet is very organic to the story. And as a reader, you don't know quite where it's going to go. It's not a foregone conclusion that she's going to fall in love with him or he's going to fall in love with her. And even at the end of the book, I would say that you're not 100% certain as a reader where it's going to go, which for me was very satisfying because it's unpredictable, which brings us to another point, you know, really about your writing, which is that it is unpredictable and a really good way, you know, as reader, you can't, you don't always know what's going to happen. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Gives us, seems to be a hallmark really of your writing is, you know, what happens with Holston at the very beginning of this? Like what the what the, again, I don't want to give it away, but whatever happens with him, you know, listeners, it's, it's a real big shocker. And then I would say the same with John's. It's just like shocking and that was a surprise is continue. So can you tell us a little bit about that? About surprise and your writing?
Hugh Howey:Well, something I enjoy as um, as a reader and as a movie goer and a TV binge or you know, I don't want to get lulled into complacency and adult one to my interest. We'll just Wayne if I feel like I'm seeing the same thing over and over again. The same conversation or the same, yeah, the same struggle, the same art. I grew up on comic books and I love that there was a much larger arch over the a year or even decades with a character, right? But every issue had its own arc as well as all beginning, middle and end. And it was that episodic nature, like a really good serialized TV show, like breaking bad where each season has applaud. The whole series has a plot, but every hour you have some kind of bit of a climax and some drama and some satisfying conclusion and some new mystery. And that opens up what I wrote my very first book, my first mollified book. Uh, I was really trying to capture that sense of like every chapter could be completely different. This wasn't going to be girl looking for her father. And here's like 300 pages of her just thinking about that, you know, in the interim she's going to have to deal with as lunch conflict and drama as possible. And uh, another thing I don't like is like when you can tell the writer has an idea of where the plot needs to go. And so they have a very perfect straight line from the beginning of the story to where the character needs to end up because life just doesn't go on a straight line like that. And so every one of these plot twist is basically what happens, you know, in our life when we're, you know, trying to run a very simple errand and it turns into an all day ordeal with all kinds of interruptions and, and miss hubs. That to me makes a better story. So I'm always, anytime I'm writing it up, if I'm even a little bit bored, I'm like, what could possibly go wrong right here? It's come to think of it, I think about that a lot. Life actually at anytime I said like a drink down near something that has electricity running through it, I think, okay, I could tip that over onto that and, and fry that. So let's not do that. So I'm always thinking of like, what could go wrong in my life? I try to avoid those things. Am I writing, I embraced them,
Natalie Wright:right? The old adage, you know, run them up the tree and throw rocks at them, you know, put them in the worst possible scenario and see how they're going to get out of it. I love that. And you definitely throw a lot of rocks at your characters, so to speak and keep them, you know, constantly having to adjust and readjust. And that's definitely, uh, I think, uh, one of the reasons why you're writing is so successful. So another question I have for you about wool is obviously the story takes place underground. And I was really fascinated by that because I also have some stories where my character is, or underground. So I was wondering if from your perspective, was there any kind of metaphorical or symbolic purpose to that? Or was it just simply, hey, they're in a silo, it's underground. You know what I'm saying? I mean it's in a silo. You could've had the silo above ground it had. It's still kind of like them stuck inside, but you put the silo underground so they're, you know, kind of down deep into the ground. Was there any kind of metaphors, symbolism to that?
Hugh Howey:I think we can, we can find some metaphor there, but my guess is that what's actually happening with all of these stories, because there are so many of them and since walk came out I've had readers and people send me like every story that's ever had people living underground and say like, you must have read this and I write about read, not read any of them and I've gone back to try to read them now and I'm, I'm fascinated by how universal this construct is. And it got me thinking about, obviously when you see something that arises in parallel like that from the, the froth of, of creativity, usually it, it hence it's something that's innate in us and in the way that when you find out like other kids, I grew up pre internet, we didn't have like influences from directly from people across the country around the world. And so when you find out that other kids your age played like the ground is lava game and you're like, no, I, I, I invented that game with my friends. And you find out that everyone also invented that game with their friends. And then you find out that babies from birth crawling across a surface where there's like glass that extends off the surface and they do this in an experimental setting. They won't extend out past where the, the solid surface hands to the glass, like they've never fallen in their lives, but they're hardwired with this fear of heights. Seeing some of these universal concepts and knowing that we, we do have some programming and as from from birth, right then man, everything starts popping up. Like the fact that when I was a kid, we used to build forts and take chairs and drape blankets over them and take cushions and we want to basically Bowker ourselves in and be under something and borough. So I think what's happening with all of these stories is that we have, uh, a very basic impulse that when we're in danger, get under something, I hide, bury yourself, crawl under a rock. That impulse is probably in us from the day we're born. And so when we're writing and we're thinking this is a dangerous situation, where should the people be underground is just like a natural idea that pops up. We lived in caves before we lived in homes. So underground is like in our DNA. That's my best guess. And there are articles that can come up for it, but I think there's metaphors are tacked onto something that's a lot more innate and interesting,
Natalie Wright:right? Kind of a more of a priority. All. So when you're thinking about a story this dystopian or about people that are having to deal with this really harsh reality, you know that maybe that's a primordial response that our subconscious comes up with.
Hugh Howey:Yeah. And down is bad and up as good. Like it pervades our language. Hell is under the soil and heaven is up in the air. So telling a dystopian story with bright colors and uh, in the clouds, like these are taking the, the language and you know, decades of bias with our language and using it in a way that's going to subvert the theme and the mood that we're trying to generate our stories and if we're going to be good wordsmiths we need to embrace the bias, inherited language in order to add weight and emotion to our stories. I think being avant garde to say, well, I'm going to tell a dystopian story where everything is like bright and beautiful and, and up. Well that's awesome. And that's neat that you're doing something against the grain. If the story you're trying to tell is a dystopian story and you want people to feel dread, it's hard to do that while while filling them with imagery that we associate with happiness and sunshine. So I, I think there's some of that going on as well where we are basically using the full weight and power of the language to our advantage when we've tried to set a mood.
Natalie Wright:Right. Hey Robin, I think that you had, uh, a question or two for, for you.
Speaker 5:Okay. Yeah, sorry about that. I basically live in the silence silo 17 of the United States. And so my, uh, connection to the outside world can be tenuous. My question, one of my questions, and I don't think you've mentioned this yet, Natalie, but as I was reading this book last, uh, last April, actually a year ago today, I did the Everest Base Camp Trek. And as I was reading this story and reading about the porters and your descriptions of them who I pictured so easily and so, well, the porters that I saw along that trek, and my question for you was, you know, you travel the world. We're the porters in wool inspired by the Nepalese Sherpa people. And what other aspects of the book were inspired by other cultures in the world?
Hugh Howey:Yeah, definitely the porters were inspired by Sherpa culture. I've never been lucky enough to hike to a major base camp. Like that's really cool that you've been able to do that. But um, I love those stories and have read like 50 or so al pining books just about anyone that I can find and gobble them up. One of my, uh, I think the, the first short story and in my science fiction collection machine learning is actually a science fiction Al pining story, which I think are pretty rare. I, and I'm, one of the stories I'm working on right now is basically, uh, the daughter of a Sherpa and her, her experience growing up with her, you know, her dad going off and doing this rate dangerous job. So it's something I'm fascinated by people who live in service to others like that and do a very dangerous and grueling task that other people basically. And that just won't do but can't do physically, just aren't capable of doing. What other influences? You know most I've, I've done a bit of traveling before I wrote wall. I lived on a smaller sailboat when I was in college. When I dropped out of college I sell it off to the islands and really immerse myself in a different culture for about a year. But I think would influence the structure of that book the most was the fact that I had just gone from working in the yachting industry where I was making like incredible money working for the rich and famous on these yachts in these really glamorous parts of the world to quitting that job because it was just, it was how in a lot of ways, you know, it sounds really glamorous, but it was working really hard for people who've had everything and weren't even satisfied by that and trying to constantly keep these people that can't be happy and trying to make them happy. And I spent two years instead roofing, which paid a lot less and had a lot less cachet. And you know, when you told people what you did, they didn't say, oh my God, you drive big fancy jobs. They're like, oh, you're a roofer. But man, I was keeping people dry and I was working with really cool people that I loved and admired and went home every day to spend time with my family and wasn't living on the road and felt super satisfied with what I was doing in life. That shift in cultures and seeing the, the difference in how these different people at either end of the spectrum lived I think really influenced the story and the idea of the up top and the down deep came from that and and what we should admire and, and what we should be more critical of definitely came from that transition in my life.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I love that. So apparent to where Jules is trying to keep the place running, you know, and she's thinking ahead and without the folks on a mechanical, you know, the whole silo of fails whereas the people up top are just trying to look at the view outside. Robin, what were you going to say? I was going to say, yeah, what you just said is also very apparent throughout the rest of the story. I made a note at the end of chapter 40 when supply joined mechanical for this uprising. Like I choked up, I got teary eyed because I love stories where it's not just like the people with the sexy jobs are, the big titles are the ones who are standing up and doing something great. It's the people in mechanical, the people in supply, like the normal people we can relate to who are rising up to make a difference. And so I like, I actually got all choked up at that part and because I'm a sucker for us revolutions, but I'm also a sucker for kind of the people who are oftentimes overlooked being the heroes of the story. And so that definitely that mindset that you just mentioned permeated the story so well.
Hugh Howey:Yeah, that link, you just use the word mindset because to me that's where revolutions should take place in and the way that we place our values, we shouldn't have to burn things to the ground to make things better. And that's a big theme in, in that you burn it to the ground and you might not have a good idea of what to replace it with. And that's just the story of revolution throughout time. That's very easy to, to critique and destroy things. But if you don't have an idea on how to improve them, you're just repeating a cycle. And a lot of people are getting hurt in the interim. But if we can change people's mindsets and see that, for instance, banks are not necessary. If we didn't have banks, we would survive just fine. And we know that because we survived for a long time before the concept of banks even came around. And some in some communities like you barn raise and now people using gofundme and crowd sourcing and the way the barn raising used to serve the same purpose and bypassing banks. People are inventing new kinds of currencies that are borderless and bankless banks are not necessary. But for banks to exist, you have to have farmers and roofers and, and steel girder riveters and the people who built these edifices for these people to sit in. And if we look at how we value these things, there are banking CEOs who get bonuses as their firing for doing a terrible job of like 25 to 50 million all at one time. Right? You know, the kind of money that would change a lot of people's lives. And at the same time they're trying to figure out how to, you know, Shave 15 cents an hour off of the minimum wage that the people working in the banking institution or making it the bottom. And there's people to me are so much more heroic and necessary and do more to fuel our economy and drivers society forward.
Natalie Wright:Robert and I talk about this, we've talked about this before. Um, you know, there's always some asshole out there is trying to like fuck it for everybody. You know what I'm saying? Like every, there are despots there TRDs there are, uh, there are mad men CEOs. There's, there's always some, some guy or gal whose only goal in life is to increase their own power. But the vast majority of human beings or wander around the planet just trying to live life to feed their kids, clothed themselves, have a home, hang out with their buddies maybe on Friday night and have a beer or whatever. And so I love that you're writing stories that are inspirational to those folks and it does remind me sort of the change in comic books to hear. You talked about loving comic books. I grew up with them as well. Often comic books, the hero is the every guy. But I think maybe I wonder if there's a move towards that in comics as well to a certain degree with guys life. You know the Chimichanga Guy, what is his name? I don't know that. I know that Jimmy Chonga guy. Right. Help you out turn because I like the idea of him. He's really, he, he does. He wears the suit because it's all disfigured. Deadpool, Deadpool, thank you. I couldn't think of that. I don't know. Cesspool Jack. I liked it. Timmy Changa is, was the best description, like to help us out. I live on the border. Everybody here eats to me. You know? That's like our thing. I would love to play that on the Bourbon. I don't think I can add, it's just my brain wasn't working, you know, cause he's like completely different than the, we're getting characters, we're getting heroes, comic book heroes that are different than the old old school ones. They're like an everyday guy. There were just much more relatable.
Hugh Howey:I think it's, I think it's also great the word changing who some of these characters are. And it's so funny that push back by people who grew up with the character as a certain way. But like comics have always been a reflection of the time that the retina and the idea that these characters should stay the same as our society changes, misses the point of what these comics were. Right. You know, written for an intended for and a loved one, especially in the marvel universe because Stanley created a lot of these characters and he was such an activist. Right? Really early on. He was basically just an old hippie and or was he, he's written the characters that have influenced me in my writing so much and such powerful ways. And he's been very vocal about the fact that he was always trying to tell like stories of different perspectives and the downtrodden and he gives an activist in his writing and it's amazing when people are fans of his characters in the marvel movies who throw around terms like social justice warrior and virtue signaling and, and these things that sound awesome to me, but I think that they don't, they have no idea what the, the source of the entertainment that they're enthralled by and how it has a history that runs counter to what they stand for.
Speaker 5:One of my favorite parts of this, and this ties into what we've been talking about, but did we, you have these really relatable human characters in the story and I am, I am around the same age as jewels and I just really related to this woman, somebody who sort of is like going against the grain or what society is set up for her and it's cool I think in, you know, in 2019 reading this for the first time, I think you have a lot of women out there also who would read this. And really relate to her and be like, yes, this is kind of what I'm striving for in life and in my world. And so I think you've created this really timeless character who is also going to age well because she's sort of on this journey with women in 2019 who are kind of like pushing back and moving forward. And so I just wanted to throw out there like how, how refreshing I felt like her character was because she was like this feminist in a very like subtle and unassuming way. And I just, I really related to that, I liked the philosophy of this story. It just really resonated with me. And so I know Natalie talked about how she really enjoyed the opening chapters, Johnson Martins, and I think the cool thing you've done with this story is put characters in motion who somebody, any reader in the world can pick out and be like, I see myself there or I relate to that person. And that was just something that was really cool to me as a reader.
Hugh Howey:That's a huge compliment. I appreciate that. It's amazing thinking about the fact that this was written like in 2009, 2010 the things that seem ridiculous in the story, like even, you know, we didn't just as before Snowden and the knowing that the government was like something that would be just, just knowledge that we live with now was the subject of conspiracy theory beck when a robe wall, which was the idea that the government might be keeping information about us or recordings. And that's basically what is happening at the heart of the silo. So it's, it's weird how contemporary the novel fields when so much has changed since it was written. Uh, one of the first negative reviews I remember for wool was that Bernard was like to seem to evil and to mustache twirly I think you wouldn't make that, you wouldn't make that comment. Now when you've seen, you know that there are people who it's not that they're misunderstood, like they actually are damaged in a way that, that, that all they can do to make themselves feel better is to create damage in the world. And there there is, it's not just different perspectives. There is good and evil in the world and of course it's, it's complex and it's, it's messy at times, but it's not the, you know, the, what about Islam? The idea that for every thing on this side there's something on that side, you know, that's nonsense. Sometimes one side is right and one side is wrong. While my story is trying to have nuance and shades of gray, there should definitely be one side that you gravitate toward and I think that that has been borne out by the world we live in now,
Speaker 5:right? Like there's no universe in which Bernard is a good guy or shouldn't. There shouldn't be a universe in which Bernard is a good guy. I think the cool thing with Bernard is he's not a good guy, but he's a very gray guy because you also see his motivations, which is cool throughout the story. You don't agree with them, but at least it's like, okay, I see. And that's why I would disagree with also the people saying he's like the villain in the tower who's like, I'm going to destroy the world. Because he did have a motivation for what he was doing, which, you know, maybe there's people in the world that like can relate to that. But yeah, the cool thing was that he was a gray villain. He wasn't a black or white villain, which I like.
Hugh Howey:I think you should definitely understand where these feelings come from and I think Bernard is a sympathetic character like, but I think he can be sympathetic towards someone that was basically never had true connections, are loving their life, never had to work for anything. I think there should be some, some compassion in the heart of our fear and desire of like needing to limit this person's damage to the world. It doesn't mean you can't. Also, it's basically like if a rabid dog wandered into a city, you wouldn't want anyone to go pet the dog, but you would feel sorry for the dog because the dog has been, his brain's been hijacked.
Natalie Wright:Right, right. You'd still probably put it right.
Hugh Howey:Yeah. You put it down or you're trying to limit its danger, not positive nataline yeah, yeah. I think it's good to be able to figure out where these bad characters in our stories came from rather than them just, you know, the, their purpose is just to make people upset. That is some people's purpose in life. The like where, how did, how did they get that way? And peeling that back is interesting.
Natalie Wright:I think about JK Rowling and um, some of her comments about Voldemort, she did a such a great job of showing us the backstory of how this evil character, the, you know, the fill in the bad guy became what he is and why and all that. And I think, if I recall right, there has been some interviews or some comments where she's had a bit of frustration over the fact that then people take their, like team Voldemort, no, you shouldn't be team death eater. I mean, I think she's made it clear that dot theaters are not okay. You can understand what creates the death eater without embracing the death eater side. So it's just as an aside, it's sort of fascinating thing in our culture right now where characters that have been bad guys' characters that have been villains, characters that are on the wrong side of the law. I see some people sort of embracing them as like if they want to be on that side.
Hugh Howey:I think there's two really fascinating things about what you're saying there because, well, one of the sad things is that we're seeing people with those kind of inclinations had been greatly rewarded in our society. Right? And those are study recently that showed like the, it's like 80% of of CEO's that they looked into could, were diagnosed with psychopathy and basically, and not having a conscious like is a benefit in business or the way our system is set up. Um, you know, you're rewarded for being an unempathic person. That's not how we should structure our society. No, we need to rethink these things. Right? And I think the challenge of how we empathize but villains is that if you rewind any terrible person's life, you can go back to a point where you should have nothing but love for that person. So if let's take the worst, well the person who stands in for evil, in many conversations, Hitler, if you get back to the day he was born in, you know nothing about that guy, like all you can do is love this child to baby. It's a, it's a blank vessel. And if you carry it forward for this many years where you can have nothing but love for this kid and they're trying to decide that point where you should go from loving something to reviling it, it's, it's not going to happen like in a moment. And I think when someone like Rawling is delving into the innocent period of a character's life, you're going to place a lot of love and compassion and to that person in that part of their timeline. But our brains are just really bad at compartmentalizing and saying, we, she can't carry that love over beyond these actions that person's taken. And there's some point even for loved ones and family members where they've done enough that you can no longer confused the love you had for them before you truly knew them with what you know about them now. Now you have to say, okay, you're not healthy, and this is of course happened so many times in relationships where it's like, I used to love you and I'm confused because now you're a terrible person, but I still remember loving you. Well, we're getting out of toxic relationships requires saying, you know that love for you was misplaced or I didn't know you enough yet, or you haven't done enough of these bad things for me to give up hope, but now I have to say it was right to have loved you then it's right to revile you now and that's really difficult to pull off as a writer and it's hard for us to even do as readers I think.
Speaker 5:Right. That's a really good point. I think one of the most refreshing thing about reading more of the, so we're going through this NPR list of the top hundred Scifi fantasy books ever written and a lot of them were written in the 60s seventies long ago and I think it's really fascinating to read writers takes on good and evil then and now like with your book in 2011 and more recent ones even. I love that the modern books are exploring good and evil in these ways and are humanizing these villains that a lot of times past scifi fantasy past novels of any kind of I guess don't really do, they have the villain but they don't really create the, the the background. They don't give you any reason to empathize with them. And I think one of the cool things with modern storytelling is that empathy seems to be such a very powerful and important thing for us to explore. And I love that, that that's something that is a trend that now I feel like if I read a book and I can't emphasize at some point with the villain, to me that is not a complete full work. And so I think that's a neat trend that I've seen in writing that we are exploring that really human sides of villains as well as to our heroines and heroes.
Hugh Howey:Have Y'all seen Shazam yet?
Speaker 5:I have not. No I have not.
Hugh Howey:Oh Man. Well everything you just said think about definitely go see the movie if you can. It's, it's fantastic. But the villain is so well constructed, which you can totally get why they are the way they are and it's a, I just love and movies or books or anything, pull that off and they did a great job with that. Killing Eve is another one that I thought was like really good at flushing out the the villain and making you understand that even if you fear them. Right. Totally agree with you. We're doing a much better job with that as storytellers now I think.
Natalie Wright:I think we're doing much better job with writing generally and Scifi and fantasy. I think that's something that Robin and I have noticed as we were reading some books from 40 or 50 years ago is that it wasn't that the idea wasn't great and the idea carries a story like do androids dream of electric sheep or I think of Heinlein's a stranger in a strange land, great ideas and definitely worth reading. But the actual writing part, the actual storytelling has improved greatly. And so modern readers app just, you know, we are lucky, lucky human beings to have so many amazing modern storytellers alive right now. Writing and being able to put their work out there for all of us to read without the gatekeepers and without the taste makers dictating what we talk about or what we read about, which kind of leads us a little segway here, a hew into another aspect of your life that we definitely talk about a little bit with indie publishing. For those of you who are listening that don't know this, when you first published will, uh, he was really at the forefront of the indie publishing movement, the wave that happened and you've been a real champion of indie publishing. So one of the questions that I have for you is what do you see on the horizon for the publishing industry right now? Is there anything that, you know, you're very tapped into it and to now you have a traditional publishing deals, you have indie publishing still going on. What is your take on where we are now, where we're going?
Hugh Howey:The challenge, the challenge I see for us today is just how to increase the amount of hours people are spending reading. I think there's some cool things coming along. Like the rise of audio books, which plug into people's lifestyles a little bit better than the pure book experience, which is helping people, you know, read while they're driving and um, read while they're doing chores and on a commute. So, you know, what will self driving cars do will have free up time for people to read more. I hope so. I hope it's not, they'll spend all that time, you know, streaming podcasts and playing video games and all these other forms of entertainment are awesome and our partake in. But if I'm looking at what's best for the literary community, like we need to grow the number of hours people spend reading my best. My best idea, I think for how we do that is to get people to start loving books and not fearing them. And that's going to have to happen like really early on and, and change how we engage with students so that schools aren't handing, aren't teaching math out of books, don't do anything that's uncomfortable in the woods with an object that's in the shape of a book because too many people are coming out of school. I'm just equating books with suffering and pain. And they never pick up a novel for fun for the rest of their life. Like we are industry relies on these avid readers who somehow avoid, and I'm sure the three of us or all those kinds of kids who avoided that stigma, but for every one of us, there's just too many people who see books as as misery. And we can change that. Like, well, that's, that's something that we've created and we've caused English professors should not teach the classics. They should get people reading contemporary fun stuff and talk about storytelling and writing. It's just lazy. They're there. They're teaching the classics because all the answers are already there. They can just repeat what their professors told them. They don't have to do any work. And you know, it's a, it's kind of a hazing ritual. Like they suffered through these books and now they're going to make other people suffer through them. And it's sad because there's like so many great books out right now and much more variety of, of voices, um, to explore. And I've met teachers who are taking this route and they're graduating and entire classroom full of avid readers instead of just one or two out of the group. So I know it's possible. We just don't seem to take that goal seriously or value it, but God, let's just, let's get more people reading and celebrate a more and let's stop being petty about people read. If people read on a kindle, like let's celebrate that. My God, they're reading. It's so weird how we ingroup and outgroup within a minority culture, we're all doing the same thing. Like if you're reading a comic book, if you're reading nonfiction fiction, how you're reading it, if you're doing it through audio or through a serialized podcast, it's all the same thing. It's amazing and we're, we're in this together and let's try to build that culture up instead of tear each other down.
Robyn Dabney:Yeah, absolutely. I went to a high school once I was, I was speaking about writing at a high school and I, I was meeting with this smaller group of students afterward and I asked one of them like, what do you like to read? And he was like, oh no, I don't like to read. I only read Manga and comic books. And I remember being just totally, I was totally floored because I was like, who the hell told you that Manga and comic books aren't reading? And so I think you're absolutely right that people have made reading not fun. And the only outcome of that is that people don't read. It's not that they suddenly love the scarlet letter, it's that they say to hell with this whole thing. And so I agree that that is so important too. If you want to read the back of a 100,000 magazines, like go you like as long as you're reading, right?
Natalie Wright:Because reading is that place where we take imagination and we're creating in our minds. And so it's so important for young people, well for all people, but the young brain like you need to do that. Totally make that come alive in your mind. Who you were going to say.
Hugh Howey:Well, I think if you get people to fall in love with reading the kind of explore the classics on their own, which is what happened for me, like after I got out of school I wanted to give back and read all the great books. Cause at that point I love to books but trying to get someone to do it the other direction, like getting them to love books by making them read the least accessible books first. It's, it's so asinine and it's amazing that our entire education system is predicated on that and it's just sets up the entire book industry for failure. And I'm shocked that publishers are more proactive in this way. Like they should be doing so much more outreach. The basically not prospecting for new clients. You know the oil companies just like we're going to suck these fields dry but we're not going to go look for more oil. And publishers need to be sending a authors to schools to talk more knowing that it's not going to help sales for that author, for that book right now. But that's what publishers seem to focus on. And to come up with these programs like this is the new reading lists like this is, this is what we would tell high school teachers today that they could teach in the new syllabus basically. And I think publishers could get together instead of colluding on price and how to rip off readers could get together and come up with ways to talk to educators, you know, in a way that would help the entire industry.
Natalie Wright:Well, you know how pharmaceutical companies fund research and to drugs so they can sell them. Why can't a publishing companies fund research into a new curriculum that uses their contemporary books?
Hugh Howey:That's a great idea. And what are the classics of tomorrow going to be if we're not doing that well, how do these books going to make sense in a hundred years, 200 years? Like we have to start embracing the now and telling the stories that are gonna make books that are being written today. Future classics and branching out like, and there are, there are no teachers who are teaching like watchmen and uh, some comics and graphic novels for their significance. And I think that's awesome. Like we got to break out break until those genres and like let people read romance led. I don't think there should, we need boundaries and how we engage kids and I guarantee you're going to get people to, to read those, look at what they're already reading when they choose to read and just say, let's teach that curriculum.
Robyn Dabney:Absolutely. If, if anybody's listening and needs a, a, another project, please create a list of the classics and if you hate them, here's what you could read instead. But speaking of books and television and people reading more will has been optioned for a television series I, if I recall right. You've been working with them on the script for the television series, is that right?
Hugh Howey:Uh, not really. I've, I've, I, I wrote a pilot a year ago actually just for my own learning process. I was in talks with a few different studios and producers and we were kind of going through a bit of a conundrum on who to go with and it has some too many awesome choices and as our road a a pilot and send it out to everybody just to say like, give me some feedback on this. And the people that really enjoyed that, the direction that I was thinking of going with the show are the people that I ended up signing a with. But when it came to actually writing, I, I would rather have another creative who can devote their time and energy into this and make, make it their story as well. And so got to meet a lot of different perspective, show runners and pick one to um, carry the show forward. I'm honestly just too busy doing another dream that I've had my whole life. It's just a sail around the world and don't want to put that on hold to go, you know, live in La and invest the time it would take to run this myself. So I've got several things in the works and my guess is that the chances of any of them going forward are greatly diminished by the fact that I'm not really putting my energy or my presence into them. Most of these deals they like want you to be there to help push it forward and honestly it's just not worth it for me. As much as I would love to see something get made as a geek, right? I don't want to go sit in Hollywood for 10 or 20 years. I've, I've got too many friends who've gotten really close and had nothing happen or even friends who've gone through the gauntlet and had their showed get made and get aired and then cancelled in the first season. I've got several very close friends that have had that happen to them. I'm a fan of the stuff that comes out of Hollywood, but watching how the sausage gets made is like really dispiriting and it's not something that I want to give up the other enjoyable parts of my life to, to be a part of. There's someone makes something at one of my books. That's awesome. If they don't, it's not going to upset me at all. I've got plenty of stories to consume that other people are producing and, and stories of my own hotel. And it's not something that I'm pinning a lot of hopes on, to be honest.
Robyn Dabney:And if you don't, you'll still have seen the world, so that's pretty cool.
Natalie Wright:Yeah. What's next for Hugh Howey?
Hugh Howey:Well, I have halfway home coming out this year from Hilton Mifflin Harcourt. It's a book that I wrote a while back that never really promoted or do anything with kind of like with wool and had a publisher and an editor read it and see like, oh my God, we need to get a wider audience for this. And right now we're back and forth with a couple of film and TV people about doing a deal for it. So there's a lot of excitement about this book. That's the next thing out. Working on three more books with John Joseph Adams. We did this apocalypse triptych a couple of years ago and now we're doing a dystopian triptych, some editing and writing stories for that. That's the book news and the sailing news. I'm heading back to Fiji and the next month or so and seeing some of my favorite islands again and exploring and eventually I'll keep moving west and get back to Africa, close this loop and then head back to the states and kind of, I don't know where from there I can only plan about two or three months out. So everything else beyond that, it's pretty just a dream and a foggy mystery.
Natalie Wright:So cool. We have so enjoyed having you on the show. We are Wool fans for sure. And we're fans of Hugh Howey, and you are an honorary tipsy nerd now so we definitely would. It would love to have you back sometime if you have new things to talk about. You know, we definitely want to hear about all of your adventures and your new works as they come out. If you're willing to put up with us tipsy girls again.
Hugh Howey:Absolutely, Natalie and Robyn, it has been a huge pleasure. Thank you for an excuse to drink at 6:00 AM I don't normally get to do this.
Robyn Dabney:Thank you. It's, it has been fun. And we totally appreciate you being here, so cheers. Thanks.
Natalie Wright:Well, thank you. We appreciate it and we have enjoyed it so much and best wishes on the sailing. Cheers, tipsy nerds.
Hugh Howey:Thank you so much. Cheers ladies.
Natalie Wright:Oh cool. You're still here. That means you were probably waiting around to hear the contest announcement for how you can win a signed copy of Wool, by Hugh Howey and other nerdy swag. Well, the contest is really simple for listeners of the show. Each week we will post trivia questions across our social media sites. Each right answer gives you an entry into the contest and winners will be announced at the end of May. Full details are on our website, tipsy Nerds Book Club dot com. Good luck everyone.
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