How Strategic Talent Sourcing Works at Scale with Jessica Joseph & Brian Heger | Talent Draup

Frontline hiring is under more pressure than ever, squeezed between cost optimization targets and a talent market that will not slow down to wait. In this episode of Talent Draup, Brian Heger , founder TalentEdge Weekly sits down with Vijay Swaminathan, co-founder and CEO of Draup, and Jessica Joseph, Director of Strategic Talent Sourcing at Aramark, to unpack what it actually takes to source frontline talent well when budgets are tight and expectations keep rising.
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Quotes:

"We use talent intelligence to really help understand those market signals, and then we could spot those areas of stress early." - Jessica Joseph
"A bad hire is definitely more expensive than a vacant role for the right person." – Jessica Joseph
"How many of those candidates are converting to interviews and offers? That to me is more important than the volume of candidates." - Jessica Joseph

#skillsbasedorganization #futureofwork #hrleaders  #talentintelligence #workforceplanning #skillsdevelopment #hrstrategy #hrinnovation  #datadriven #hrtech #talentmanagement #draup #hrpodcast  #skillsgap #aramark #talentedge #talentsourcing #sourcingstrategy #frontlineworkers #workforceplanning

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Moments You Can't Miss:

04:53 - Frontline hiring shifting from reactive filling to reading proactive market signals
09:07 - Frontline work still leaning on humans over machines in moments of crisis
10:24 - Digital and AI investment in frontline roles becoming a necessity, not a nice to have
11:56 - Frontline hiring shaped by hyperlocal factors like commute and transport access
15:13 - The real cost of a bad hire versus a vacant role
22:05 - Frontline roles reframed as real career paths instead of disposable labor
28:22 - Talent metrics moving from time to fill toward pipeline health and readiness
31:27 - Hiring shifting from role-based to capability-based sourcing
34:53 - Business-led sourcing starting with shared priorities and a narrow pilot 

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Key Takeaways:

• Talent intelligence turns hiring proactive: Reading external signals like labor supply shifts and commuting changes lets frontline hiring teams build pipelines before shortages hit, rather than scrambling once a role opens. 
  
  
• Progress metrics matter more than activity metrics : Backward looking numbers like time to fill say less than forward looking measures like pipeline health, conversion quality and time to productivity. 
  
  
• Hiring is shifting from roles to capabilities: As business needs evolve, sourcing teams are starting from what capability a business needs to deliver rather than pattern matching to job titles that already exist. 
  
  
• Start narrow, then scale: Finding the 80 percent of priorities most business leaders share, and proving value on one or two critical roles first, builds trust before expanding sourcing efforts organization wide. 
  
  

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More About Aramark:
Aramark is a global food and facilities services company with around 270,000 employees spread globally, most of them in frontline, hourly roles. That scale has pushed its talent sourcing function toward reading market signals ahead of need and building real career paths up from hourly work, using a capability-first model instead of static job titles.

More About Talent Edge Weekly & Brian Heger: Brian Heger is a long time internal HR practitioner with experience across telecom, retail, and pharma. He writes Talent Edge Weekly, a leading HR newsletter with over 55,000 readers, where he shares practical insights on workforce planning, talent management, AI use cases, and organizational effectiveness. His work focuses on helping HR teams simplify complex issues and deliver high-impact business value.

More About Draup: Draup for Talent provides multi-dimensional labour and market data powering AI Transformation of Enterprise Workforces. We quantify AI's impact from company to function to role, model the ROI of every decision, and build the skills architecture around the work that remains, enabling HR teams to lead the transformation with evidence: which roles to redesign, which skills to build, and what the payoff is. Today Draup supports workforce decisions across 33+ industries at 300+ enterprises, including 5 of the Fortune 10
 
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Social media:
Jessica Joseph:   / jessicajoseph23 
Brian Heger:   / brianheger 
Vijay Swaminathan:   / vijay-swaminathan-a44101 
Draup: https://draup.com/
Aramark: https://www.aramark.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So, hey everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Talent Drop podcast. I'm Brian Hager, and I'm today's guest host. I'm also the founder of the Talent Edge Weekly newsletter. It's a newsletter that goes out to HR talent and business leaders who are interested in the future of work. And I'm really excited for today's discussion on a topic that is really critical to many of us and top mind, and that's the area of strategic talent sourcing in the era of cost optimization. And joining me today are two fantastic guests. We have Vijay Swamanathan, co-founder and CEO of Drop, and Jessica Joseph, Director of Strategic Talent Sourcing at Aramark. Vijay and Jessica, great to have you both here joining us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah, so I'd love to, before we jump into the conversation, I'd love to give each of you just a brief moment to introduce yourselves, tell us a little bit about your role and what you focus on, and then we'll jump into the discussions. So, Vijay, I'll start with you, and then once you're done, why don't you hand it over to Jessica so she can do her intro?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Sure. Um thanks, Brian. Thanks, uh Jessica. We call her JJ. Um super privileged to be here. My name is Vijay Swami. I'm uh co-founder and CEO of Drop. Um Drop has been focused on uh talent intelligence and uh work redesign aspects for the last uh seven plus years. Uh really privileged to be here, Brian. I'm a big follower of uh your uh um you know writings and postings and newsletters. Uh uh JJ, uh, you know, I'm a big fan of your leadership and uh how you use data in a practical way. Um so really excited about this next uh 20 or 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Great. Thanks, Vijay.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Thanks. Um hi, my name is Jessica Joseph. Uh, as Vijay said, you can call me JJ, and I lead our talent sourcing uh organization for the United for the US at Airmark. Um uh and really excited to be here today. Um, in my role at Airmark, I really focus on um uh building a strategic sourcing function and transforming that um the function that we have today to continue to be more future ready, um, one that looks um at the enterprise and really cross-line a business. We have 10 diverse uh lines of businesses at Eramark that we serve, um, and really understanding how we can um understand um the demand better, continue to um improve on having ready now pipelines uh for the business, especially in a business that um talent, you know, really makes or breaks um uh whether we uh remain at our accounts and and our relationships with our clients. So it's really important that we have the right town on the ground. Uh so excited that I get to do that for a company like Airmark that's been around for 90 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Thanks so much, Jessica. You do all the fun stuff, right? That's all the the fun stuff. Well, thanks so much for that introduction, Jessica and and VJ. And why don't we just jump into a real practical discussion around this topic of strategic sourcing, especially in an era of cost optimization. And and VJ and JJ, you uh you know this. We see a lot of different talent reports that come out with CEOs and the C-suite and business leaders. What are their top priorities? What are they focused on? And invariably, no matter what report you look at, as you start digging through that, it's no surprise that leaders are concerned that are we being intentional and proactive about having the talent that we need. And what's making that even more important is all the changes happening that we all know very well in the workplace. And then how do we keep cost optimization in mind, which is often a delicate balance? So, given that context, where I want to start, and I think I'll start with you, JJ, given the role that you have, I want to start more with frontline uh type roles. And those frontline roles are typically they're high volume roles, they have a lot of local constraints, highly sensitive to timing and things like that, which makes it tough to uh anticipate uh what's going to happen and and so on. So love to hear given your role and what you and your team do. How do you do talent sourcing in this type of environment? Because there's a couple of challenges that you face. Uh and then a second part of that question is how are you using talent intelligence to overcome those challenges and not only overcome them, but to use that as a strategic differentiator for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah. Yeah, great question. Um, and and it definitely is a challenge. Um, our, you know, frontline hiring, like you said, it's it's very much focused on um or dependent on the location um and timing. And even when you're fully staffed, um, that could change tomorrow. And when it does change and you're reacting to that, it's really already too late. So it's really important that um we shift, and something we're trying to uh continue to shift the mindset in uh at Eramark and prior to this, I was with Walmart and we're doing the same. And I think this is a challenge for all companies that have frontline hiring is how do we um move from a reactive state to a proactive state? Um, how do we um shift from just filling the requisition to anticipating those shortages and having that talent ready to go? Um and so we use talent intelligence to really help understand those market signals and that we could spot those areas of stress early. Um so when we do that, we can have our pipelines ready. Um and that helps us really reduce those fire drills, um, all of that wasted work that happens when you are reacting. Um and so it's really important that you understand those external signals, those market signals, um, so that um even before your hiring numbers move. Um and like some examples of that would be, you know, uh whether local labor supply is tightening, um, commuting patterns change. Um, obviously there's there's larger signals um, you know, around the economy, but there's a lot of small local ones that are really important that um you're outpacing um uh your intelligence is outpacing that um the supply changes and those market shifts.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

And JJ, what's been the reaction from the team since you've been making that pivot?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

So it's been um it's been interesting. I mean, obviously uh um it's a very large organization and sometimes it it takes time for those um changes to come to fruition, right? When you're planning for the future, it's not um uh so much about the activity that people are used to seeing and feeling good about, right? Um when you're in recruitment, um recruitment's very much about filling roles, right? So this is a little different. Um, but the reaction has been really positive, um, especially when folks start to see the change. When um, you know, we have an account, um, you know, we win a new account or um or we have you know someone really fabulous move on to um you know a promotion and having you know external folks ready to go in addition to our internal folks, um, and then we have that slate ready and they can make a decision really quickly, an informed decision decision because they have the slate ready. So once they start to see that, the feeling um uh of you know activity changes um and uh the way they CTA as a whole has changed. Um and so it's been a really great reaction so far, and we're excited to just continue to scale it so that we can make sure that every you know line of business in our company is feeling that.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

That's great. I I love that. I always love practical examples for the people that are actually doing the work because you have to face the the the hiring managers, the business leaders who are really wanting to bring the talent in. So that's a great example. And the one thing I'll add before I hand it over to VJ to see if he has anything he wants to expand on from that perspective is you're right, this doesn't happen overnight. But I'm big on are we making progress in the right area? And what are those little mini indicators that suggest wow, we're better off now than what we were three months ago. So it sounds like you're on that that path. So so JJ, thanks so much for for sharing that. DJ, do you want to add anything to what Jessica shared? Because you you deal with so many organizations and you see a lot. So anything you want to share with us?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Right. Uh I I I was uh the power of uh frontline labor and the impact it has on organization is uh substantial, right? So uh recently uh one of my flights got canceled, and uh uh as it was coming out, uh even though we know there is an app, there is a hotline, whatever that we can call, 90% of the people who walked out of that flight really sort of uh crowded around the agent who's sitting outside the aircraft, right? So our first intuition when it comes to frontline work is to use humans. At a time of crisis, that's where frontline work, uh, whether it is a nursing staff, whether it is truck driver, whether it is food service, right? So uh JJ knows that very well. We actually trust humans more than machines. And it's gonna take some time for us to get out of that. Like even in that airport example, uh, when people saw uh, okay, one agent can't do anything, this many people, that's when they kind of say, okay, let me fire up my computer and uh uh see how I can do differently, right? Uh our first instinct uh in a healthcare setup or in a food service setup, we trust humans more. Um and thereby it is uh going to be human-intensive, labor-intensive in the short run. Now, the challenge that um leaders like JJ face is the the frontline workforce is getting used to higher quality of digital tools on their personal lives. Like uh they they are using most modern uh uh you know gadgets, phones, uh devices, et cetera. Um, so they expect a certain amount of automation in their work to carry forward. Now, this is where the digital and AI investment in the frontline actually becomes a necessity because um they they are uh I mean, uh if you're uh uh serving a pharmacy and if you do not have a proper kiosk to triage, like the the frontline pharmacists are wondering why don't I have that, right? Like, so why do I still have an outdated POS system, right? So uh that's how the corporate uh digital uh transformation pressure are coming in, because that becomes uh what do they do if you don't roll out? They basically pick an organization that has more modern systems, like to uh when the labor is so uh thin in terms of availability, they go and pick, hey, you know, I always like working in this company because they have modern systems, I don't have to uh go through the uh process that I go through here. So it becomes very, very important, right? So we uh that dynamic we see playing out. The third one, what JJ said is uh absolutely right. The uh frontline work is hyperlocal. It's even uh county specific, or if the county is big, even it's like uh minor uh constituency specific because uh it depends on the economical strata of uh uh the labor force that you are tapping into. Uh, what is easy for uh a corporate job may not be like it may be okay for uh FA analyst to drive 40 miles to downtown, live in the suburb. Um your accessibility radius is a bit high in a big in uh cities, uh, but frontline you don't have that, right? So uh uh you you may be people may be wanting to not travel more than uh um certain distances, or they will depend on bus roads, right? So do I have a public transport uh that can get me there? So there is just lots of signals that needs to be processed when it comes to frontline, is what uh uh I'm learning as well, Brian.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So I love that, VJ. You know, it's so important what you you said because those signals, right? The more signals that we get, it's almost like filling in a piece, a piece of a puzzle. Like this piece of the signal might tell this part of the picture. And when you start bringing the whole piece together, even if it's a partial piece, we could take a lot of the guesswork out of it or minimize the guesswork and make data-driven types of decisions. And lastly, I love what you said about the the the front line. I I always say, you know, it's also important to know what our critical roles are surrounding the business strategy. And a lot of times we think critical roles are at the top of the organizational hierarchy, and we know that uh that's not the case. It's all dependent on your strategy, and you gave a great example uh of that, Vijay, with the the frontline worker example that you mentioned. So uh thank you so much for sharing that, uh Vijay. Uh I want to shift into a uh a second related topic. We we talked about cost optimization, right? Because when we talked about those priorities that business leaders mentioned, yes, they want the talent, we want to prepare for the uh future of work, not only the future, but for today as well. But we also want to optimize our costs. We talk a lot about efficiency and sourcing, uh, you know, productivity and ROI. And Jessica, I'll go back to you on this particular question here. How do you go about balancing out the desire for cost optimization and efficiency and making sure that we're making the right and good decisions? Because sometimes if we move too fast, we might not make the best decision. And other times if we are waiting for the perfect decision, we never take action. So nothing gets done, and then the the business starts to suffer. So any practical examples of how you're approaching it and you and your team organization?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and speed um cost comes up a lot. Um, you know, when we have a vacant role open, I mean, we're in the business of hospitality. Um, and when we have a vacant role open, that could really impact um uh impact that uh that business. And so it's really important that um we're always looking at that. And something that we need to um, you know, a focus on, you know, in these in the in this world is really understanding how we can reduce spend, not just today, but in the long term. Um and also that um a bad hire is definitely more expensive than a vacant role for the right person. Um and so I think uh when you are in sourcing, something that um we can do is take a role that where we can understand put a cost to it, you know, when there is um uh the wrong hire and what that churn actually costs. Um and when we do that, um I think we can come at it in a data-informed way where we can go to the business and say, we understand this needs to be filled quickly. Um, and here's our plan to do that. Um, let's get ahead of, you know, the churn where we can and make sure that we plan because that speed cost, um, you know, uh it comes with the reduced cost comes with preparation, not necessarily those like shortcuts that we're constantly taking just to fill things quickly. And so I think those those two really go hand in hand. Um, and it's important that um we really help the business understand um that what we are doing and what we're preparing for will cost less in the long run. Um and so the goal ultimately is that we are always staffed and keeping that sustainable. Um and so when we understand that true kind of like North Star, that helps us and helps the business understand that we need um to build that sustainable plan so that we can get there and continuing to, you know, go after what's right in front of us so that we can have a body, you know, in in the seat or on the ground on the front line can really hurt our business uh because we are in the the business of hospitality, uh especially. Um and so that's something that we always you know have to have to remind.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

That's a great, great practical example. And just before I go back to VJ to see what he wants to add, just a reaction to what you just said, JJ. And I love what you said. You know, business leaders and managers, they understand theoretically the importance of workforce planning and all the stuff that we're trying to do. But it's amazing how one one of the reasons I think it doesn't advance much is because it gets attention. Uh-huh. And then when things get okay, uh we deprioritize it. And I love what you said. I always love going to the business leaders or the business. And rather than starting with the the technology or the process or the the program, what is the business problem or opportunity that we're trying to solve for and using real data to say, hey, here's why we think this is worth solving, and then come up with a solution, which could be a talent intelligence solution. And I also like adding at the end, if we don't move on this, that's a decision we can make. However, here's the cost of inaction, and are we okay with this and what it means for the business. I think that kind of conversation gets some different outcomes, and it sounds like you're doing that by always starting with hey, here's what we're trying to drive from a business perspective, and here's how we could do this through talent, intelligence, and strategic sourcing. So so thanks so much for sharing that. Vijay, I know this is a topic that you get a lot of questions on, with especially with the the clients and leaders that you you work with. So, what are your thoughts on that topic of cost optimization and trying to balance out the two?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Right. Uh I mean, absolutely, I think totally in alignment with what JJ said. Um, I think uh um for hospitality businesses or uh in general, um, you know, food services type of industries, um, a wrong move could uh significantly derail the business. Uh, even if you look at Starbucks, right? So when they switch to mobile order, while it is a technologically fantastic innovation, you actually eroded the ground value of uh what Starbucks is all about, right? Like uh Starbucks is all about that interaction, that small talk, and picking up from the humans. Um, yes, uh uh it solved the queuing theory problem. As an industrial engineer, I'm fascinated by what the digital app did. You don't have to talk to anybody, you can just your coffee will be ready and you go pick it up. But what happened in the after that, in terms of uh uh customer trust, uh experience, all that, uh you know, it's all for everyone to see, right? So um while uh Brian, you made a great point. Those are decisions that we make when we are on hive. The business is doing great. Hey, you know, I need to add to the add more, move more. Um, but rather um certain investments from digital, uh, we you know, rather than remembering the recipes, we will auto-feed you in an AI-driven way at the point of ordering. Those technologies are great because it's enablement. So my theory has always been when it comes to frontline, first you you have to augment the human, then think about automating, right? Um, and if and it's a big long cycle, uh, because if you prematurely automate, uh, even though that experience is awesome from a metric standpoint, it may have a negative impact on your business, right? So those are the aspects that uh people are beginning to understand, uh, whether it is uh you know retail store. And the other thing I want to also understand is uh uh business for the last two, three decades, we've been sort of um making the mistake that. Um frontline is sort of disposable, cheaper labor, other labor is not. Like I think the industry has sort of um you know been uh uh uh there is sort of um uh uh an unstated opinion about front labor like that. That needs to change because uh, I mean uh we've seen in uh uh places like uh uh Walmart and other where truck drivers uh have made beautiful careers, like they have been become multi-millionaires. I've seen uh case studies um like that. So it is actually an area where uh uh in general labor can make a lot of money and make uh careers, like there are so many levels in frontline. That's number one. I think that awareness doesn't exist, uh, and as a result, and it is also uh an uh uh an element that significantly contributes to the bottom line. So if we um if we understand that and if we start communicating to our frontline labor force, that way more people will come in into frontline because some uh the truck driver is a great example. For a long time, we thought uh truck driving will be automated and no need for truck drivers, and suddenly the pool that came into that shrunk. Uh, but we actually see that great truck drivers make uh uh you know ton of money, uh great store managers make a ton of money, and uh uh that part is not well understood for people who are making career decisions as a result. Uh uh, if we can change that, more people will come in because there is uh uh the desk jobs, there is a lot more AI threat there as well. So I think now is the time to reevaluate uh those frontline jobs, is sort of my thought there.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

If I may say, oh, sorry. You know, go ahead go ahead, JJ. Uh I completely agree with you, VJ. And um, this is something you just hit on something I'm really passionate about. Um uh especially at Airmark, our frontline hourly folks uh have a very high um uh promotion rate into our salaried roles, right? So when we think about the growth of folks, um, and when we think about recruiting, you know, from a business perspective, when we hire frontline, like we're also hiring our potential future leaders of the company and getting them to understand how important that is on the grounds, that hospitality, and then bringing that um, you know, those values through their the leadership is extremely important. Um, and I agree with you that I think companies um need to do a better job at really telling that story so that folks are really seeing um those frontline jobs as a career path um into uh into greater opportunities. So um, and and you know, one more thing around like the technology and augmenting that, um, you know, something that is really important that, you know, um I instill in the team uh and the sourcing team and greater TA team is that um we are branding as well. Every time we have a conversation with a candidate that's branding um and building that brand. So like, yes, they can read all about, you know, Eramark online. And but when they are um, you know, our personal touch is really important. Um, and so uh when they're having conversations with us and and with the business, um uh that part cannot be replaced. And we have heard from multiple candidates that um, you know, meeting the team is what sells that ultimately making the decision. So all of those things, including technologies, obviously to enable to like get to a mass you know, amount of people. Um, but that personal touch I think is really what you know uh what gets them to choose us.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

No, that's that's super uh insightful. Thank you for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah, JJ, one final comment on that before we move to our last topic. And I these conversations always go too, too fast, especially when they're really interesting and practical, because we can go all day on this here. But one reaction that you mentioned is I I do think it's an untapped opportunity. Sharing the story to frontline workers about the career paths and sharing those. Because it's one thing to say it and to put it in materials, recruiting materials, but it's a different when they can actually see people that have moved their careers and whatever those careers are and and hearing those firsthand. So I think the marketing of that and and the sharing of that and the promotion of that is really really important. And and Vijay, I like the example that you gave before about how technology can enable. But in some environments, you you know, that customer experience, especially with frontline workers, is so important. And the example that you gave, you know, the decision that we make to optimize could cut out critical points of the customer experience and that interaction that builds uh you know, loyalty over time and coming back to the store or the the location and and so on. So I think that's a great example. Uh so uh again, I want to pivot to our last topic and and JJ, I'm gonna start with you again on this one. I'm letting VJ off the hook on these. I gotta next time we're gonna go start with him here. But uh great conversation. And I want to talk about uh to wrap this up. Uh if we're focusing a lot of time, energy, organizational resources, and investments on all of this with strategic talent sourcing and talent intelligence. Uh it's really important that we look at what are the metrics that we're using to demonstrate that we're making progress and that there is an ROI. And uh the environment may call for uh uh metrics that we used to use uh that may be less relevant today or not tell as much of the story that we have to shift, uh and maybe new metrics that we now have to capture. Uh so do you have any thoughts or tactics that you're using on on how do you decide on what metrics you're using to articulate the narrative so that those business leaders that we talked about at the very beginning and sharing why we're doing this, we can come back to them and say, hey, here's how we're moving the needle on these things, and here's some of those signals and those early indicators. Any thoughts you can share on that?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, absolutely. And this is a constant conversation and also educational and one that continues to evolve. Um even you know, as I continue to learn more about the business and what is really going to matter. So um, first thing, uh time to fill, I feel like is always a metric in talent acquisition that everyone talks about. Um, but ultimately it's really looking backwards, right? It's not really looking forward. It's it's about kind of like reporting on what we did. Um, and so as we think about that and as we we uh look at metrics that we're continuing uh to build as we you know build the foundation of a more pipelining um focus, uh, we're looking really about the pipeline health, right? Pipeline health, you know, more than the volume. Um we're looking at what how do we measure readiness um versus activity? Um understanding conversion quality, you know, um, that is is really important. How many of those uh candidates are converting to interviews and offers? That to me is more important than the volume of candidates. Um and so uh, and then the next thing, and we're in in some functions we're we're better at um, you know, reporting than others, and I think that's you know, probably across the board in in enterprises, um, but you know, the time to productivity. Um so are the candidates that we are um uh putting forward and are getting hired, are they being productive faster? Like those are the things that I think the business really um cares about um and they're not used to hearing about. So we are trying to, you know, change the way we talk about these things so that um our metrics are truly more guiding the priorities so that we're more of a business partner than just reporting on, you know, what we've done in our history.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah, I love that shift from activity measures to true progress measures. And the one thing you mentioned about time to fill. I also think it's always important, no matter what metrics we decide are important, is clearly defining what we mean by that and understanding the different touch points. Because I remember a lot of we've all been through this. Time to fill. When does the clock really start? And and what led to the time to fill the lengthy increase? Was it that we didn't really know what the job required or what we wanted in a candidate? Was it that we just didn't plan effectively and know that the role was coming? So it's not just a metric, it's about how do we make sure we clearly define it, but understand what are the things that influence it. I think that's really important. And it sounds like you're you're you're doing that within your organization. Uh and VJ, I want to shift over to you because this has to be a question that you get from a lot of companies and and business leaders. Anything you want to share with respect to metrics that we might focus less on when it comes to strategic talent sourcing and talent acquisition and others that you might want to focus more on?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I think uh what we are seeing is uh gradual but definite shift towards uh a role-based hiring to a capability-based hiring, because uh uh companies are uh, especially from a strategic sourcing standpoint, right? Like uh companies, uh the leadership is not very clear on what are all the rules I truly need for the future of work perspective. So they're gonna have to say, hey, you know, maybe uh I'm just completely making this up uh to relate to uh JJ's business. Maybe we need, let's say, some food samplers, right? Uh embedded in the cafeteria of Aramark. Let's say that's one of the futuristic needs. There may be two or three roles associated with that. And uh uh where we are truly going um in that direction is to how do I build that uh set of skills, capabilities, there may be four or five rules, and start holding the objectives towards uh, yes, I have implemented that capability for you. Um and uh if even if it is uh more aggressive, um sensor-based or feedback-based data tracking, um, let's say as we finish eating, we are uh say, hey, the food was great, like a green, yellow, let's say you are uh um doing that uh data collection as part of your service delivery, then you need to bring that capability. So for every experience that we are uh uh seeking to implement, uh we are seeing a trend towards uh uh leaders themselves. Uh we lived in a world where leaders knew these are all the roles, go higher, but I think that's there is a little bit of uh change coming there, and uh I'm beginning to see more capability-based uh hiring coming into strategic sourcing, especially, right? So uh I'm very excited about that period uh when it uh uh fully becomes mainstream.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

So that's a great point. Love that, love that shift from just looking at roles to more of the broader capabilities because it helps us, enables us to do a lot more with the strategic talent sourcing and the planning and and so on. And I apologize for keeping the two of you over. I know I only asked you for for 20 minutes on this, but this has been a great discussion. And before we we sign off, um JJ and VJ, any final words for uh teams that are looking to do some of what we talked about as far as taking that initial next step. Uh you know, uh part of what's behind my question, I always think that if we wait until we have the perfect plan and everything figured out, we never take the action. So I always like to say what are one or two practical things that people can start thinking about if they're looking to start mobilizing and getting uh more effective at this trish uh strategic talent sourcing. Is there one, maybe two simple things that you would recommend that they do? And this goes out to either of you and and VJ or JJ, you you can start first. But uh I think that's a good question that will give people some practical takeaways beyond what we shared already.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I'll let JJ weigh in because she's the leader here, doing it practitioner.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so I think that two things you could do um first is is truly talk to the business and really understand their goals and think about um how can you, from a sourcing perspective, help achieve those and then put together a plan. The second piece to that, um, the layer on top is is prioritizing, getting the right people in the room, especially in these diverse businesses. Um, and I've seen this at Zach's, I've seen this at Walmart and at Aramark. Every you know, business leader has obviously different priorities within their business that they care about. How do we bring them all together? Find the commonalities. Um, what is the you know, 80% common, and then take those roles and start there. You know, start with one or two positions that you know are very critical to the business, and how can you improve the talent readiness of those roles? People are going to start to see the value and then you can scale. Um I think sometimes we look at it as a whole big organization and it's just too much to see through, and there's so much noise around it that it's hard to really understand the truth. So I think if you can really get down to that um really quickly, you will have a really great start to, you know, a more business-led sourcing function, um, and as opposed to recruiter-led sourcing function, which I think most sourcing functions, from what I understand, are um are at today and trying to evolve to.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

That's such a great tactic. And I like that tip. I'm gonna have to take that one about finding that 80% where there's overlap. Because if you focus on that 80%, it helps to stamp out some of that other noise that you mentioned. And we can refine as we go and test and experiment. Jay, do you want to take us home with any final exclamation point on any practical one or two tips that you'd recommend beyond that?

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Uh I think uh uh it's the same tip that JJ recommended. I just want to uh you know double down on that. Mobility, mobility, mobility, right? Like so uh if we can uh educate the broader enterprise workforce that um you can actually become a CEO by starting from frontline, that there are so many examples of that across uh industries. Um I think that will energize the frontline labor. And also the digital tools have sort of removed certain friction points that existed, say five, six years ago. I I think uh educating that, um, some communicating some of that back to the workforce. Uh uh you know, you're not gonna be on your feet forever, like just because you are the term frontline doesn't mean you have to be uh standing at the front of the line all the time, right? Like it just uh so this um these categories of uh labor that worked, helped in the industrial era is no longer helping us. Uh, because we're talking about even software engineers becoming frontline. What that means is you really have to go sit with the customers and find out what their true problems are. You can't just sit in some isolated remote area and then think that uh you know it all. Like, so every job is sort of frontline, becoming frontline some ways. Uh uh, and I think uh uh if we can communicate that and the mobility point that JJ highlighted, I think uh that will lead to a very bright future from my perspective.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

DJ, we're gonna end on that note. Such a practical and enjoyable discussion. I think you've both given the listeners and the viewers some practical ideas that they can work with on this. So I really enjoy this. I'm looking forward to doing this again. Want to thank you so much for joining and also thank those who joined us to watch this or listen to this uh on the Talent Drop podcast. So thanks again, and we'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much, GJ. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. That's great.