S02 E05 | More Minds, More Impact: Ellen Broomé on Breaking Barriers

From navigating the responsibility of CEO leadership to challenging inequality in access to dyslexia diagnosis, Ellen Broomé shares the lessons that have shaped her journey. She reflects on resilience, strong networks and backing yourself — and why ensuring every child has the right support is essential to building a fairer future. Whether you’re a leader, a parent, or someone curious about how to make a difference, this conversation is packed with inspiration, practical advice, and stories that show why diverse minds make a stronger world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Inspiring Working Lives, the Morgan Hunt Podcast, where we go into our Republic Secretary leadership journey. Lessons and wisdom are the next generation of leaders that will share the price aside.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello, and welcome to the Morgan Hunt Inspiring Working Lives Podcast. Today's guest is Ellen Broom, CEO of the British Dyslexia Association, BDA, leading the charity's mission to create a dyslexia-friendly society through advocacy, awareness and support. She joined the BDA in October 2024, bringing over 15 years of leadership experience across children's services, education and inclusion. Previously, she held senior roles at the Quorum Group, including managing director of Quorum Family and Childcare. Ellen is passionate about social justice and neurodiversity and has worked extensively across policy, research, and service delivery to improve outcomes for underrepresented groups. At the BDA, she is focused on expanding support, tackling stigma, and championing equity for people with dyslexia across education, the workplace, and public life. Ellen, welcome to Morgan Hunt. Thank you for being with us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

No problem. Right, we always start, Ellen, with we want to find out about your childhood. How was it, and did you have any career aspirations?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

I actually don't think I had career aspirations that went further from. I like ballet dancing or um no, I don't actually think I did, but I grew up in Sweden in outside Stockholm in a suburb of Stockholm in the 80s and 90s, and I think looking back, I think it was a really very safe, um, really privileged. Uh it was really community-based, it's very safe. There was lots of playing outside, walking to school by yourself when you were six, you know, with your friends. So there's quite a lot of autonomy and independence because it was so safe to leave children to do that, and I think um I think it put me in like really good stead actually to be feel quite I trust people, uh, which I think is a nice thing. I trust people kind of um until they've maybe proved otherwise. But I trust people and I I I was trained to be quite independent and quite autonomous and and be quite confident in myself, which I think was um really put me really was put me in a really good place for the workplace actually later on. But I obviously didn't twig on that when I was seven or nine or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

No, so if you asked me to describe a Swedish childhood, you you it sounds like you've described it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Um it was incredibly wholesome, I think, is though my mum like baked our own bread and stuff, yeah. It was very, very wholesome. I mean it does obviously there are there are many things that are difficult for people in in lives and things like that, but yeah, I think overall really happy, wholesome childhood actually.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I've never been, I would love to go.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

You should go, it's very, very beautiful, and every time I go, I think, why why? And I go back to London, I think, oh it smells a bit here. Um so I'm not entirely sure why. Uh why I no, I do know why I'm here, but uh but it is very beautiful, and I think it's uh it was a great place to grow up. Really great place to grow up.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Okay, so when did you move to the UK?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

I went here for uni originally, uh um and went to Exeter, did history and politics, really enjoyed that. Um, then went away for a while, went back to Sweden, went travelling, did some more education, uh, and then I came back here about 20 years ago now um to work in Parliament.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Um for MPs. Okay, so what were you doing for MPs?

SPEAKER_02 4:01

I did the basic thing, they all this all be familiar to anyone who's worked for an MP. Uh you answer a lot of constituency emails, you write policy briefings, you try and translate what the line to take is into some sort of normal language that your constituents might might appreciate hearing. Uh, you try and service your community, actually, really, and I learn so much about systems and processes and what works and what doesn't. You know, you'd cover everything from child maintenance to housing to parking to planning. So it's a really varied role, and I think uh also really fun and interesting, whilst also being feeling really like a very serious it's a very serious job. You're you're trying to make positive changes for people wherever their constituents, the MP though, you're working for their constituents. Uh so it's it feels like a really important job, and it's a real privilege to be able to do that kind of role. Uh, and I really really liked it. I thought it was really fun, very stimulating, and I learned an awful lot, including that I never wanted to be an MP, but that's maybe a side effect.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Right, okay. But it must be really useful in terms of how to talk to these people and get points across as well, having seen it from the inside, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I think so. I think yeah, I think so. I did see an awful lot of you see an awful lot of the the other side of lobbying, um, which I think is probably helpful if when I then went on to put to work in advocacy, I think that was that was really helpful. There were some helpful lessons in there. You know, for example, just knowing how time poor MPs are and how very many issues come through their door in the very min and I think I is when I worked for MPs social media wasn't as much of a thing. Um, you know, there were still loads of letters, and I think that has really shifted the sort of the amount of correspondence that MPs get now is is worse, well not worse, but there's more, and that means that you have to be very sharp and really incisive if you want to have cut through in that enormous inbox and the very many priorities that they I mean that they rightfully have across their constituencies and maybe their own interests, you know, as well, or or portfolios that they might hold. Um, yeah, you have to be sharp and have a good story to tell, I think.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

But even if you do, you might still not get anywhere, so you need to have a little bit of luck as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Right, okay. In that process. Gosh. And how long were you working in that capacity?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Uh a few years, a few years, maybe three or four years, and then I moved on to the charity sector pretty much straight away. Um, which I've felt like coming home. I really I love working in the charity sector. I think the voluntary sector does such fantastic work alongside local government, alongside local services, uh and like being able to take kind of an issue, whether that's in my case now dyslexia or other issues that I've worked on, and learning from kind of practitioners on the ground, children and young people, themselves, uh professionals, you know, etc. And being able to take that and shape that into a story around what change is needed to make it better, uh, is if if it genuinely felt like coming home, and I I've never really wanted to leave the Jagstick. I'm very happy in the children's children's charity world is probably where I'll spend my whole life. I feel you know it's a really it's a really great place with some fantastic campaigners, and I love working. I my first very first job was as a teacher, so I love being with children and young people. I think they are. Uh they always inspire me uh in what their resilience and their creativity and uh calling a spade a spade and sniffing at any inauthenticity am I enough?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Great, okay. So that feeling of that's what I want to do, that's where I want to spend my life, that's the focus. When did that start? Was it once you were in the charity sector? Or was it building up in the world?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, I think I knew that I wanted to try the charity sector, but then I had an amazing job at the National Autistic Society working there at a fantastic time with some absolutely brilliant colleagues, and it was such an inclusive workplace. We worked, you know, the people who worked there were back in the day when there probably wasn't so much conversation around neurodiversity, were there was lots of neurodiverse and non-neuro and neurotypical colleagues, and we worked alongside each other, and it was a really uh inclusive environment, and it was a really passionate and really committed environment, and it uh absolutely loved it. I had such a great time there, and it was felt like we were doing such important work in terms of raising the awareness around autism and the the the effects and the impact that would have on both children and adults uh and the changes that they needed. So yeah, I genuinely felt oh I've come home. This is this is my this is where I this is where I belong.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

This is where it should be right, okay. And uh you you talked about they're a very diverse workforce with people with lots of different, you know, diverse conditions. I mean, we're encouraged more and more to think about diversity in terms of working environments. What what were the benefits you kind of uh I think they're huge.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

I mean, if you just think about it, like if if you all look the same and you all are the same, you're gonna think the same stuff. That's not gonna lead to much creativity or or a little bit of grist. You know, sometimes you need people to disagree or say, actually, I completely I don't understand your perspective at all, or well, that's offensive when you say stuff like that to me. Like I come at it from this perspective, and that doesn't matter if it's around race or gender or or neurodiversity or whatever it might be. I think the more diverse your workplace is, the more likely you are for that to be a thriving, uh, high achieving, high ambition, inclusive workplace where people can be themselves, you know, and I think that's that's really really important. I don't want people to hide who they are. I want people to feel like I can turn up to work being myself, whatever that is, and they're all valued for that. Um, and I think it makes the workplace so much a bit. I think it makes people happier, and if if people are happy, you tend to work better as well. So it's kind of a win-win in that situation, in that from that perspective.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Okay, and what role were you doing um there within the uh I did policy and public affairs so I spent most part of my career in policy and public affairs, um, advocacy work, uh, and then taking on kind of services as I progressed up through kind of uh promotion and or changing jobs, uh taking on services initially as well. So running services with in my the first instance with parents and carers of of children uh in the early years, uh, and then moving on to to sort of leadership roles. Uh but my my routine was through policy and public affairs and campaigning.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

So that's that's sort of where my heart comes, or you know, at least my own craft comes from there, if that's if that makes sense, and my own professional background.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Which is usually important in terms of leading an organization to be able to influence at that level.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

It is, although I always think you know, it's how it's you see of executives across the charity sector and they can come from really varied backgrounds, quite a lot, quite a lot come from service backgrounds, having run services or programs. Uh, some are fundraisers, and you can sort of see you you should try and play to your strengths, I think. If you're really good at something, you probably maybe need fewer people who are really good at what you're good at, but people who can who can help you that all the things that you're not going to be so good at. So I said I like policy and advocacy, so I could do that, but that means I'm less good on finance or fundraising, you know, all of the other things that I haven't got as much professional training or experience in. So it's really important to kind of think about having a balanced team again, like diversity in a team, uh, so you get experience across the board uh and balance you out, I think, or balance each other out.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Um yes. Okay, so where did your career take you next?

SPEAKER_02 12:04

I think after that I was over to the Children's Society. We did lots of campaigning on poverty and free school meals uh and benefits, and that was really interesting. Um, and it was during the coalition year, coalition government year, so it was it was there was a lot of opportunity for lobbying, I think, as well. Um, which was felt very felt like we made some real inroads of over Maine, really proud of the fact that we managed to get free school meals for five and seven year olds. I think that's in England I that was like a massive victory, and obviously I was only one part of a very big movement and lots and lots of people working alongside each other, but but I feel really proud to be to be part of that. Of that, I think it's you want to make sure that children are fed, they're more likely to be able to learn if they're not hungry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Um with the right food inside them, yeah. Okay, so when you have a success like that, how how does that sort of manifest itself in the organization? You know, what how do you feel when that happens?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I think people feel proud often. I think people often feel tired because you've usually worked really, really hard to get there. Sometimes you someone emailed me a few weeks back about a policy change that we worked on about 10 years ago, which said it's happened, and I thought, brilliant, it's happened, but it has been 10 years. Um so it's a long game, you know, and sometimes you get fair-winged and sometimes you don't, even though you should. Um, so I think but when you do achieve something, I think it can feel really good. You know, you are doing it for other people's lives to feel and look different, you know. To know that you've contributed to maybe even if it's just one child not being hungry when they're trying to learn, is really important, you know. I I really social justice you is is really important to me. Um, and I think we live in a really unequal world world, and I want to I want to leave do my bit to leave the world behind looking a little bit better than when I came. That's that's kind of what I know that sounds really, and I maybe you can only talk about this in the charity sector with corny like that, but um, but for me that it really is the motivator, you wanna leave it better than you found it.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Great, yes, and you have direct opportunity to do that. But when those it takes ten years to change something, you know, there must be a level of frustration on what keeps you going through that as well. Do you ever think this is just not gonna work?

SPEAKER_02 14:32

No, I think you have to have a bit of blind optimism to kind of carry you through, maybe. I mean, these are intractable problems, and I think change can happen in lots of different ways. You know, people talk about the individual who saw them, like you know, I I have friends who work across the sector in many different different jobs. You know, it can be that that practitioner, that professional I saw you, that trusted adult that sort of kind of had a lookout for, you know, people talk about the individuals in their lives, but there's also structural changes. So you you know, change can happen in many different places, and they're all important and they all have to happen. But I think um when you think you get less fair wind, maybe on a national level, then you try and think what can we do low locally or in serve direct service delivery to change things. If I feel like you know, if if if you're not getting so much uh attention or traction for your cause, uh maybe in parliament or with your particular minister or ministers. Um, but yeah, but blind optimism, and I think also knowing that, like obviously, you your issue might get five minutes of headlines, and that's great, you need that, but all the other times, it's the stories of the people's lives who are either made better by support they're getting or change that's happened, or the people who are saying they're having a difficult time, or or really you know, in really challenging circumstances, and that those stories are really really important to kind of you so you will hear them all the time, even if it's only five minutes in the news. So I think they keep you motivated. I think working with brilliant people, you know, for me, belonging's really important. I really like feeling like I belong to the place that I work and and having good relationships and enjoying the people I work with is really important to me personally. Um, so that I think that kind of keeps you going uh on those bleak days um um when when you might not feel so optimistic about what you'll get. But but I you know also sometimes if you take a slightly longer perspective, like policy change takes can can take a long time. But if it looks better in 10 years' time than it did 10 years earlier, well good, you've made some progress. It might not be exactly what you wanted, but you're making progress is always, I feel, almost the time in motion somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yes, yeah, now I understand. Okay, so just changing tax slightly then. When did the idea of leadership within the charity sector sort of appear appeal to you?

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Um well I've been fortunate enough to work with some really four some really great fantastic leaders. Um and then they weren't necessarily in leadership roles always, and you I think you can have leaders in all at all levels actually. Leaders leadership is about some it's about how you lead and how you conduct yourself and how you model for other people. Um but I was really fortunate I had some amazing bosses who showed me what you could do and how much fun it could be, um, but also how important it is. Oh, so that's a bad one, so it maybe playing that's the maybe that's the other learning some things that I really didn't want to do and that I really didn't think was good leadership, and I think maybe I thought, well, I'd quite like to have a go and and seeing seeing if I can do some of that myself. Yes. Um but I as I said I think it's really important. You can have you can be a leader at any level, and I think that's part of seeing yourself uh as a leader. Um but I think yeah, I think having worked with some fantastic ones and like from also not some fantastic ones, I thought, yeah, I'd like to have a go at that actually.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

So there's a lesson in there, whatever the circumstance is, you can pull something out of it, even it's how not to do it.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, I mean that's in a positive way, that doesn't mean I didn't didn't wasn't incredibly frustrating at the time or anything like that, but of course I was. Um but by and large I've been very fortunate and I've mostly worked for people I've really admired and really learned loads from, even if they're very different from you, and I you know you lead in your own way, don't you? Um but this you know uh good leaders will show you something, even if they're very different from you, that you can sort of think, oh that's a really you know. I remember one leader I I worked for, she was she'd be quite quiet in meetings, but she'd like make one one or two killer points in every meeting, and I thought that's a very good tactic. Um, you know, so people teach you when you're alongside them, they teach you about how to conduct yourself and how to uh be a good be a good person, you know, and think about what's important when you're leading.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Uh absolutely, and I I I guess somewhere in there is encouragement as well that somebody's passed on to you at some stage, which seems to be a common theme in these conversations I've had. Isabelle?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah, I think so. I mean I think you I think it's really important. I think I've been fortunate that people have shown uh have had confidence in me to to encourage me to try some new things or say well have have a go at that or try that out. Um that is really important and to know that people will back you even if you get it a little bit wrong, because obviously you you will get it wrong. I do get it, you know, I get it wrong regularly. Um so to have people who sort of have belief in you and have encouraged you uh and say you I think you know you can. I suppose my reflection is that I think um maybe it's because I've worked in female-dominated organizations quite a lot of my career, but I I really I see a lot of women who I think are incredibly competent and very capable, uh, but they don't always have the confidence to sort of show that or to step up, and I think that is a that remains a real passion of mine to think about how do we create how do we create environments where women like that can thrive and can it doesn't mean everyone wants to be a leader, it doesn't mean everyone wants to be on a senior leadership team or go on in their career to do you know to have big jobs, whatever that means, you know, but being confident in yourself and having confidence that what you're doing is a good job. I see I see fewer women with that confidence than I see men, and that is remains something that I feel quite passionate about in terms of how do we support our women in the workforce to step up.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

How can we do that?

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Encouraging modelling. I mean, I I think it's similar to to colleagues. Obviously, I speak as a white woman, um, and it's helpful for me to have seen white women come before me, but I think of of kind of global majority staff, you know, that that's where the diversity again is really important. You need to look and see people who look like you in those places and think, well, I can do that too. Like, you know, I had I was fortunate I had female bosses that I thought, well, I could do that. Well, if she can do it, then I obviously I can do it too, you know, I can have a go. So I think that diversity and trying to create inclusive environments, think about how you promote, think about what you ask for, how you tailor your recruitment or your kind of ongoing development is is really really important. And to think about who do you give a platform to, who do you have around the table, who do you give voice to is really important if we want to because I mean I'm women are not the only people who are not getting on in the workplace in the way that they should global majority staff, staff from working class backgrounds, you know. We hear about that and we think, and I I want to think quite hard on how we not make those barriers in the workplace. Um so I so I think thinking about an inclusive supportive environment uh and not being blind or pretending like those barriers don't exist for people.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yes, yeah, I think is really important. That's great advice. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

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SPEAKER_01 22:51

So moving on from this leadership, your your first leadership role as such, where were where was that?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

I was at Family Childcare Trust. Um, and I felt quite young actually looking back. I think I felt felt quite young, and I'm not sure I always brought my whole self to work because I think I felt a bit unconfident. It's in in all honesty, I think looking back now, I think I was less confident about my own leadership abilities. You know, you I had never tried it, so you know, you sort of try try and learn as you go along. Um, but I also really loved it. It's amazing to see teams that you work with do really well. It's a fantastic feeling when you've worked with someone to sort of try something anew or go through a barrier or something and they do it, you think I mean you feel very proud on their behalf. Um, so that that feeling is is really really great. You know, there's this there's nothing better than seeing your colleagues succeed and kind of shine. That feels fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, and as you uh keep in touch maybe down the years and see them go from the Yeah, so does it sometimes you come back and you work.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

I mean, I always think you want I want to work for the people that have worked that have worked with me, I want to work for them in the future. You know, I'm hoping that's what's what it's gonna be like, you know. And it's you you will bump into the same people if you stay in this sort of vaguely the same place, you'll bump into the same people over and over again, and it's it's really important to have good relationships uh and to send and you know you people should people should move on, like you know, that's it's sad when people move on and great colleagues leave you, but you've trained them well, you've supported them well to go on to try something else. That's a a great thing, you know. You've enabled a career change or a move or progression, and that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yes, yeah, I like it, yeah. Um and and I suppose to a certain extent the the charity world, you know, it that that's really positive, isn't it? Because it's not like they're going off to compete or any way against you, it's just more good work going out.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, I suppose and I have always thought about that. I think the cake is always it's not as easy as I'm getting. Yeah. That is not that's not how you we should think about life or or work. Uh and I think you know, if you've if you've done a good job, you will have great ambassadors in other places. Like I will always be a great I or will always speak very highly of the National Autistic Society or the Children's Society. I think they are fantastic organisations. I don't happen to work there anymore, but I think they're fantastic and I'm very proud of what they do. So I think you send your send your ambassadors out into the world and they'll talk about you in other places, which I think is really helpful because you need to make connections and build wide coalitions if you want to create change.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yes, that's a good point because I guess those coalitions are more important than ever, really, as funding is tight and uh Yeah, and I think the charity sector is feeling under the kosh.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

I mean, as is every other sector, you know, local government is very cash-trapped and very stretched in resources. You know, I work a lot with teachers these days, they feel very there's a great sense of overwhelm and and feeling of you know not having enough not having enough resources to do the best job that they know they could do, maybe, and a sense of frustration and and overwhelm and burnout with that. So, you know, I'm conscious of that, and that stays the same in the sector, like it's a very tough environment. The financial situation is is really really tough, um, and there isn't a lot of money. Uh, and that is that is a challenge. That really is a challenge in terms of keeping morale up, and you know, every time you open a sector mags, you know, there's large-scale redundancies going on somewhere, so it is it is um it is a difficult environment at the moment. Uh and I suppose in that it's important to hold on to the fact that why are you here and what are you trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

So, Anna, when did Dyslexia UK appear on your horizon?

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Well, I I actually just got an email from a headhunter, and I hadn't really been thinking about changing jobs because I was quite enjoying my own. Um, but I thought, wow, that's really interesting. I've never really thought about I mean I had thought about dyslexia, obviously I knew a a little bit about it, and I I had been a teacher, so I'd encountered it before. But I thought, hang on a minute, this this feels really interesting. And I thought I'll go along and have a conversation. And I and I the more I thought about it, the more I looked into it, the more I did research and started talking to people who I knew who maybe had dyslexia or had it or had experience of of you know having their child with dyslexia perhaps or and stakeholders in the sector. I was starting to think this is really really interesting and also really really important. And we need this needs, we need to talk about this more. Uh and that felt like a really exciting challenge. Raising the profile, making some noise, um, and getting some changes, I suppose, ultimately as well. Felt like a both a great opportunity but also like great potential. You know, I was really quite excited the more the more I looked, the more interested I got, and that's always a good sign, I think, with a with a job.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Oh and with a job like that, it is the like okay, we're looking for a CEO and we want you to follow this route within the organisation, or is it over to you to kind of really varies depending on what kind of organization you're taking over?

SPEAKER_02 28:22

I think they were um I had a great hand over for my predecessor, and I think might have I have a a brilliant board who are really supportive and challenging the in the way that they should be. Um, but they I think really wanted me to have a really big think about what we should or shouldn't do, you know, not go back to basics, but really do a quite a big rethink and a big re sort of um who are we for, what are we here to do, how do we achieve those things? Um, you know, and this and the and the finances are quite challenging as well. So I they definitely those were my it was big questions, and that's quite I that's the kind of thing that I like. Um I'm probably less good at being a custodian of things than I am of changing. I I quite enjoy change. I mean there are some painful aspects of change, and people find it really hard, and it's less fun having change imposed on you than leading change, and that's kind of important to acknowledge. Um, but I felt they had lots and lots of potential, and and the board was very um gave me quite a free reign, I think, or wanted me to really have a proper think about what we should do differently. That's what they asked me to do. Uh, and we are coming to I've been there about a year and a bit. Um, we'll have a new strategy out in April, which we've co-created with the with Lived Experience Group. We've spoken to children and new people and adults with dyslexia, the trust staff, the trustees. So it feels some of the stuff for the loads and loads of really hard work uh internally is kind of coming to fruition. Uh, and that's feels really great actually.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

But that feels like a great role, one way you can go in, got time to understand it, what the challenges are, and then build that pathway forward.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah, and yeah, meeting really you know, learning new things. I you know, I've learned so much in the last year and a half, and I've you know, meeting a fantastic staff team is always really great, they'll teach you new things and they work in a different way, you know, than your previous ones. You've you know, every place is different, um, and it's it's been really enjoyable. Challenging, but really enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yes. And day one, when you turn up at Dyslexia's um UK and you've got this kind of I guess sort of euphoria, I've got this job and I'm really proud to take it forward. Is there then a moment when you go, oh my goodness?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Actually, didn't have that, but I think that's because I got the flu. So um so I had to, we know. I think my third day, or maybe my fourth day, was our annual awards night. So it's a big night, it's a big fundraiser, it's everyone in our dyslexia sector, lots of people. Uh and I was I'd taken so very many paracetsamol to try and make that day nice to sort of get through it. Um, so I didn't have that moment. I was more like, we've got to get this, we've got to get this sorted, gotta get got to power through this. But it was um no, I haven't had that feeling of of of of that sort of oh wow, what have I locked myself into? However, it can obviously be lonely when you make difficult decisions that you know will impact on staff, for example, around redundancies. And it can it's it's a backpack. You are always responsible, and you are always the one who is responsible. So it doesn't matter if you're on holiday, if something goes wrong, it will you will have to get involved. That's the the sort of drawback, I suppose, but it's also the it's a privileged position to be in to be able to do to have those jobs, so you sort of have to take that responsibility and that heaviness sometimes. Um I mean try and carry it lightly, I don't think about it all the time, but obviously there are moments when I think, wow, that's that was a difficult conversation, or that that was unenjoyable, or that I wish I didn't have to do this. Yes, and that's but that is work, you know, and I that's why you have you also get to do really fun stuff. Yeah, but with that responsibility comes some some less fun things, yes that feel really hard.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah, and I guess sometimes the the awareness that those challenges lurk down the road will put some people off in terms of taking on a role such as yours. How do you get through those? You you also touched on loneliness as uh sometimes because it's everybody looking at you.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, and I think in a way, like the I mean obviously I have a great board and they're very supportive. I have a great chair. My chair is fantastic. I feel we work really well together, and I'm really grateful for that working relationship that we have. I really feel like she'd back me and support me if things got difficult. Equally, I have a great SMT, I have great staff, you know. So I you aren't, but yes, there's something about you are the one who's accountable, the buck stops with you, and you will sometimes have to arbitrate or make a final decision uh on stuff. I think it's really important to have good networks and good relationships. I have some very good friends and colleagues who I can reach out to to moan. I have a whinge to, and I think that's an important thing, and obviously, you don't want to do that to your colleagues in your own organisation, so you you know I have some I have some amazing um CEO friends who I can turn to uh for those things. Um, so I think it's really important that you yeah, I think you should be and you have to be resilient, you have to know when to take a break, and you need to f fill your cup, so to speak, so you can be there for others. You know, you need to know yourself well enough to know that you can only go so far when things need to to be different. But I think having really good networks and knowing how to switch off, I think are really really important. Having small children is helps in that because they sort of require your presence in a way that you can't really avoid them, even when you want to.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Because you can only deal with a small child, you can't really be thinking about something else at the same time, so it's a great stress relief, yeah. Superb. Okay, so in terms of dyslexia UK, what's next? Where's it going? Where we you said you've come into this period of investigation and you've got a strategy going forward.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Uh bigger, bolder, more maybe. Um so I think it's so for example, there is no there there are no free diagnoses for for adults or for children to have a diagnosis of dyslexia. Uh, so it's only people who can afford to pay for one who can have one. That to me screams of inequality and and isn't fair. Um so I suppose we want to carry on making a really strong case for why children and adults with dyslexia should get identified identified and that they should get support so they can get on in school and get on in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Um it's not just that they're expensive, those tests, as well. It's not that you've got to pay, but they're also really expensive.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

They're£100. I mean, uh as as you would expect from you know, these are highly qualified people who can give these diagnoses, and that's kind of right and proper. It's just that for other things like autism or ADHD, there is a medical pathway. You can go to your GP and say, I have the these are my challenges. I think this might be my something that I'm struggling with. And though, yes, you might have to wait a long time, and I'm not negating that that's really difficult, but at least there is a pathway for you. For dyslexia, there isn't even one. Uh, so if you can't pay, you can't have the evidence that you, for example, need to go to university, like you need a diagnosis of dyslexia to get disabled students' allowance, um, to take if you want extra time in a professional exam like an accountancy exam, you have to have a diagnosis. A screener, or you say, This is how I you know I had extra time in my exams for GCSE or level is not going to cut it, they are gonna require it. So it's um it is an unit's not a level playing field, uh, and I'm I feel very passionate that that's something that we have to um do all we can to change. So I suppose it's about making sure that people with dyslexia have the support they need today, but changing tomorrow so tomorrow feels and looks different, uh, so that children don't have experiences of educational failure. Because I think that's quite a heavy emotional backpack to carry with you into life, feeling like you're not good enough or that you're rubbish, or having people assume you're not clever uh uh regularly. Or I mean, I mean, six in ten children with dyslexia have hidden their dyslexia. Six in ten have been bullied or teased about it. You know, these that that's not acceptable. We need to change those experiences that the next generation of children do not have them. Um, so more, bigger, better, sh louder, I think is where we want to go with with the BDA.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, it's really interesting to hear that. I I've got a daughter with dyslexia, and it was quite traumatic up until the diagnosis, because at that point, suddenly, look, this is the situation, this is how we deal with it. And actually, I found the support post-diagnosis was really good, and it's allowed my daughter to say, right, I've got this and I've got to work away around it, and it's been a really positive outcome.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Yeah, and I think that's often the case, you know, it's not going to remove, for example, your daughter's challenges.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

But we she can have tools and she can there are strategies for how to overcome them so that she's not held back by dyslexia. Dyslexia is quite unusual in that we do know how to identify it and we do know how to support people really very well and have known for some time, which is why it's slightly baffling to me that we don't do it better. For example, uh we looked at GCSE uh exam results, and we can see that there's a 30% point difference between in grades between children with dyslexia and children who don't have dyslexia, and you know, 20% of children with dyslexia get a four or more GCSE English and maths compared to 50% of everyone else. You know, that's and it's not related to intelligence, they should just be they should have a normal bell curve of distribution of graves if that makes sense, yes, and they don't. Um so we're not getting it right, and that's we need to get it right. And I think diagnosis is often uh the thing that unlocks it, and also knowing yourself, I'm not stupid, yeah, I'm not rubbish, it's not that I'm not trying hard. Yes, it's dyslexia, and I've got that, and I can find a way around it.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, and my experience has been dyslexia itself opens up a load of more talents and different ways of you know viewing the world and taking it on, which uh potentially, if you you didn't have that diagnosis or you didn't know, you you wouldn't actually unlock that part of your skill set.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Absolutely. I mean, again, we go back to diversity, we need all minds and all types of people uh in the world to solve some, you know. We have major, we face major challenges in the world, don't we? Um we need everyone to be part of those solutions, you know, and I think so. We need dyslexic minds and neurotypical minds and people, you know, people from all backgrounds and all walks of lives with all sorts of skills, uh, and I don't want to short I but I don't want to see children and adults uh with dyslexia shortchanged in that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah, good. And are we winning?

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Are we winning? Well let me come back in a few years later and I'll tell you whether we're winning or not.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Lovely. Okay. Um so if there's somebody listening to this and go, look, I wonder if I'm dyslexic, I've got a problem, or alternatively, I am dyslexic, I've got through this. How can they support you?

SPEAKER_02 40:28

How can they uh there are so many ways? I mean, I'd say if you think that it might be you, there's a checklist on our website, there are screeners, there are diagnoses, there's loads of advice and information that you can look at in terms of what are your rights in the workplace, what support is out there. You know, there is quite a lot of support out there, but it you might not know about it. So, for example, I know that some people really struggle struggle with um banking apps.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

But there's actually loads of ways around that because the banks have come together and fixed some of that stuff, but you might not know about it. So there's lots of tips and tricks and things to to do, and I'd have a look at our website uh for some of that. Uh, equally, if you have overcome it, we would love to hear your story. We'd love to share that. Again, it's really important to model, isn't it? To say, actually, and it's not just about becoming a massive sort of sports superstar or an amazing billionaire, entrepreneur, um being a good person and leading a good life is really important, and we want to have those stories and share them with with other people so they can recognise themselves and say, Oh, actually, maybe that I could be like that. Children can say, 'I want to be like that. Well, that didn't hold her back, it won't hold me back either.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

You know, yeah.' So please get in touch and share your story if that's your experience, we'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yes, there's been a theme of this conversation. If we can see it, we can do it, we can be it. Yeah. So uh that's positive. Absolutely. Okay, um Ellen, final question, really, which is a classic one for this podcast, which is if somebody sat in an organization right now, yeah, maybe in their mid-30s, and they're going, Look, I want to be a leader, but I don't feel I have the door open for me. What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_02 42:15

I would speak to colleagues that you know who are leaders, ask for their advice. What do I need to have on my CV? What do I need to be able to demonstrate in terms of my skills and my experience that will enable me to make that jump? What do you think I need to work on to be able to do that job? Um, I think that's really, really important to check in, you know, think about your networks. Who can give you some advice, who can give you a bit of mentoring, who might give you a leg up, um, you know, who might give you a fair hearing. And I think that's that's really really important. But I think also it's really important to believe in yourself. You know, you think you can do it? Well, have have a go. Don't ask, don't get. You know, you might need to do 10 interviews. Well, do 10 interviews. That's okay, that's not failure, that's you learning. Uh you know, so I think, although it'll feel like failure, and you'll probably feel terrible after recruiter number six tells you you're not good enough for this or you don't have the right experience, but you will find your place. There will be a hole somewhere in the world that has your shape if that's what you want. So I think that's be persistent, don't give up, um, believe in yourself and take a lot of advice. Talk to lots and lots and lots of people, as many as you can, about their experiences, how they got there. You know, though most people do not have a straight career trajectory. Uh, and my experience, at least, is that leaders are very generous with their time and their advice if anyone asks for it. So be a bit bold, maybe, uh, and ask.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

That's great advice, and I I double down on that. I think people don't get those.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

calls or those emails asking for help and I think people are generous and if anyone ever wants to talk to me yeah I'm more than happy to I I'd want to share those I mean I can only share my story I can't do it for them but of course I'd be happy to share my experience and my advice with anyone you know and I think most other leaders will will for the same because someone will have done that to I mean people did that for me so I'd want to pay that forward you know uh to the next to the next leader uh or the next person thinking I I can have a go at that.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Brilliant. Well Ellen that's a great place to leave our conversation thank you for being so open today and sharing your personal story I'm sure many people will find it motivating and inspiring as they move forward and we wish you every success with Dyslexia UK we're all right behind you because you're fighting the good fight.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Thank you so much for having me it's been an absolute treat.

unknown 44:52

No problem.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Thank you for listening to Inspiring Working Lives the Morganhunt podcast driving positive change and helping you to grow your career. If you've enjoyed this episode make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next inspiring conversation. For more insights opportunities and updates head to morganhunt.com