S03 E01 | The Reality of Hospice Leadership: Trevor Johnson’s Journey as CEO

In this episode of Inspiring Working Lives, we speak with Trevor Johnson, Chief Executive Officer of Acorns Children’s Hospice, about his route into hospice leadership and what the role involves. Trevor discusses the realities of running a children’s hospice, including financial pressure, complex decision-making, and the responsibility that comes with leading a large care organisation. 

He also talks about children’s hospice care in practice, from supporting families to creating meaningful moments for children and their loved ones. A straightforward, honest conversation about leadership, care, and the impact of doing work that really matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Inspiring Working Lives, the Morgan Hunt podcast where we explore public sector leadership journeys. From honest chats about career highs and lows to lessons and wisdom to inspire the next generation of leaders that will shape our society.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Hello and welcome to the Morgan Hunt Inspiring Working Lives Podcast. Today's guest is Trevor Johnson, Chief Executive Officer of Acorns Children's Hospice, the largest children's hospice provider in Europe. Acorns operates three hospices across Birmingham, the Black Country and Worcestershire, alongside community-based services supporting hundreds of children and over a thousand family members each year across a catchment population of more than 12 million people. He was appointed to the role in March of 2023, bringing extensive leadership experience from across the charitable and hospice sectors. Trevor began his career in retail working with several major national brands before transitioning into the charity sector in 2010 when he joined Haven's Hospices in Ethics as director of trading. Over time at Haven, his responsibilities expanded to include Director of People, during which he led a successful organisational initiative, including achieving investors in volunteers accreditation and securing the Queen's Award for Volunteering in 2017, one of the UK's highest honours for the voluntary service. In 2019, Trevor served as acting CEO at Haven, later becoming Director of People and Income Generation, and in March 2021, he took on the role of Chief Executive Officer at Catherine House Hospice in Oxfordshire, a charity specialising in adult palliative care. As CEO of Acorns, Trevor champions the organisation's mission to provide outstanding compassionate care to children with life-limiting conditions and their families. Under his leadership, Acorns continues to strengthen its regional reach and advocate nationally for sustainable hospice funding. The organisation is also proud to hold the UNICEF UK Gold Rights Respecting Award, becoming the first hospice in the UK to receive this recognition for embedding the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into its culture, governance and care delivery. Trevor Leeds strategic growth, community engagement, and service development to ensure that support reaches as many families as possible across the region. Trevor, delighted to meet you. Thank you so much for coming here today. Great to meet you as well, then. We always start in a familiar place where we ask about your childhood, and I'm interested to see if you had any career aspirations as a child.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

So I grew up in, if if my accent doesn't give me away, Birmingham isn't my original part of the world, although this is where I work now. I grew up in East London, a place called Dagenham. Yes. A strange old upbringing in terms of there was um comprehensive school and everything else. Ambition wasn't always the biggest driver behind things for my family, etc. I sort of, in my wildest dreams, I imagined I might be a teacher maybe or something like that. Um leadership didn't really feature into any of those ambitions. I kind of um one of the things I've often said is that my entire career has been an accident. It's been kind of one of those things I've sort of stepped in when I've seen gaps. I started out um in retail. I took on a well actually let's take half a step back. Um I started out as a trainee manager at Pizza Hut, is actually where I started. And I did that for about a year and a half, um, and then moved into working with a number of different brands I've worked at. Um Safeway, when it you when that used to exist, uh Co-op, MS, um, lots of different brands I've worked with. Um and it's just been one of those things where I kind of if I see a gap somewhere, if I see something where I have an idea, I'm I think a lot of people in um organisations and in and in general see things and go, oh, someone should sort that out. And I'm kind of I'm someone, why why shouldn't it be me that sorts it out? And kind of you end up, I think, taking on leadership as much as you end up being appointed to leadership, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Got it. I suppose that grounding in retail, it is very much, it's moving so quickly, isn't it? Everything's got to get sorted out then. And the organisations you work for will clearly have high standards.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I think, yeah, well, I think it's two things. I think like you say, everything moves really fast. There's constant high standards, constant checking in where things are, how things are doing, and all of those things. But you also learn at the same time, running in parallel, there's this long-term planning, you know. Yeah, when you work in retail, you you often find that you get sick of Christmas because it never seems to not be Christmas. Because although you know when you're in the thick of it, you're really busy, you're doing lots of hours, making sure that there's stuff on the shelves for people to buy and everything else, almost the minute that's over, you're planning for the next Christmas. And that's what I mean when I say it's that I think it's that pace, but also that planning that lends itself to that sort of adjustable leadership and being able to move through things quickly whilst also keeping an eye on trying to drive through what's important. I think it's I think it's an amazing grounding for anyone actually to come through that sort of an environment. Like I said, where constant challenge, constant um input from the public, which is at times welcome and unwelcome. And one of the things I often joke about, you know, sometimes you want training courses, and someone says, um, oh, there's no just remember there's no such thing as a stupid question. One of the things I always say is anyone who says that has never worked in retail. Um in terms of that customer facing. I lost a few of those as well. So it is um I said it I think it's that grounding of the pace and the drive and everything else alongside that constant planning and looking at what's going on around you for the longer term that gives you that really solid base.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yes, I never thought about it like that, but it does make sense, it's the mixture of both, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And as you say, in a highly public-facing environment. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you were working in retail, you're building up this experience, etc., and then at some stage the charity sector must have called to you. How how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

So, well, it's one of those strange things. So I'd kind of I'd developed through, I'd been a department manager, a store manager, I was looking after a number of the MSs in railway stations in London, and everything was fine. My wife, who's long worked in the charity sector, was looking for a new role at the time, and there was kind of a moment back in it was 2010, well it was twenty actually 2009 when I first applied for the role. She was sat can you remember when the computer used to sit in the corner of the room rather than being a laptop? She sat on the computer in the corner of the room and kind of called me over and went, it's a job here that you could do, which was the director of trading, which was looking after the charity shops of Haven't Hospices. And I kind of read through the job description and was like, I could do that. And I kind of the thought of using the skills that I'd had and developed and and honed and everything else in retail to really make a difference to the lives of people was just an an incredible opportunity. And so yeah, I immediately thought, well, okay, I'm gonna absolutely throw my hat into the ring for this and see if I can get myself out there. Um I think I was a left field, well I know I was a left-field candidate. The first conversation I had with the recruiter, I I remember it. I sent him my CV and the covering letter, and he gave me a call and he said, Um, really like your CV and everything else, but I'm not sure what that you're what they're looking for. And I asked him a few guys, I said, Yeah, what's that? You know, and they were looking for someone who understood perhaps a bit more about charity retail, but I thought retail principles are retail principles, the foundation. And so I had the conversation with him on the phone, and I can still remember at the end of that conversation him saying to me, Um, all right, well, I tell you what, I'll put you through, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Um this seems crazy to me because surely the charity sector would want people with that sort of you know, very sharp private sector, quick, you know, uh commercial experience that you would have.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, and well, I think it was quite you know, it was fortuitous as well as you know, my drive I'd like to think played a big part in it, but it's also it was fortuitous. The sector as a whole was just beginning to come round to that way of thinking.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

A lot of charities at that point had had sort of finance people or fundraisers running shops, and they've done their best, but you know, one of the things about retail is it's one of those things that everyone assumes that they can do it, and it is actually a specific skill set, and um charities were just coming around to the idea of well, maybe we ought to see if there's these people out there that have got that skill set that could come in and do it. I ended up talking to a number of colleagues sort of a few years later, as I'd been in the job role for a while, who'd all had sort of similar experiences when they began to look at roles in the the charity sector running the charity shops. So, yeah, I took over um at Haven's then with 14 shops and yeah, didn't look back.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Wow, okay. So bringing in those skills and that experience was quite transformative for Haven.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Completely. It was I came in with a new way of looking at things. I wanted us to look at how did we make sure that we focused on serving the customer, how did we make sure that we understood what we were charging for things, how did we make sure that we worked every inch of our shop floor space, you know, stock doesn't sell in the back room in any retail environment, whether that's charity or otherwise, um, and make sure that we put in really sound retail principles whilst also making sure that we supported our people. I think such an underrated element of any business is that leadership principle when it applies to making sure that people feel valued, you develop your people and they're able to make the most of the talents that they have. So we put a lot of that into place. So I was um I built a team around me, um, and I've always believed you make the most of the skills that you have in the teams that you you work with, and that's absolutely what we did. I mean, I'm really proud of everything we achieved. You know, when I took over, um we just had a Havens had just had a record year in their retail um and delivered 196,000 of net profit. Um within 18 months we delivered 739,000 pounds of net profit. So we more than tripled the income. So real just dedicated focus. We didn't open any new shops, we focused, we got the foundations right, we got the principles right, and we worked with our people to maximize every possible opportunity. Got it. Do you ever walk past a charity shop and go, I know what they should be doing? I'm I'm the worst person to go into any shop with because I kind of I just I spend my time walking around and go, Well, that's wrong, that's in the wrong place. You should put that there. There's a there's a whole science to it, and actually, you know, when you apply it is when you make success. But yeah, I'm the worst person to go into any shop with from that perspective. But equally, certainly charity shops, I can never resist a charity shop. I like to to you know hunt for a bargain, of course, but you know, I'm never I think we can always learn lessons wherever we are, and actually the ability to look around sometimes and just go, oh, you know what, that's a really good idea. How might we apply that? Definitely. Got it, yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Okay, so you've made this wonderful success of running the charity shops and the revenue, which is so important for hospices in terms of getting that revenue in. And then your role starts to expand and move into different areas.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah, it's again that was organic. So with looking after the shops, I said I I wanted to make the most of the people and work with my people. So we bought in some things, I bought in some things for the charity shop at uh charity shop sector at Havens, that yeah, we introduced some management training to really maximise the skills. We introduced um some behavioural measures, behavioural measures to be able to understand how not only were they delivering in terms of their sales, but how are they working with others? How are they working with the community in which their charity shop served? Um, and these ideas obviously became successful, and my CEO sort of gradually started coming to me going, so this training that you're doing with a shop, is there any way you could expand it to include uh the wider team here at Havens? Well, yeah, okay, let's have a look at that. Like I said, let's start to think about how do we solve that problem, you know. This how do people behave with each other? Well, is there a way of applying that more broadly to the whole of the organisation? And then there came a point, I remember there came a point I was talking to him and he went, Look, would you be willing to take over and become the director of HR and Volunteer Services as well as looking after the shops? Um, but it never takes me long to say yes to an opportunity because I think you you say yes to the opportunity and then figure out how you're gonna do it. So yeah, I was totally on board. I took that over. You know, Havens had at the time um about 260 paid staff, and it was at that point just under a thousand volunteers. So it then became okay, right, uh now how do we take this forward? And we we took that forward as well in terms of the the piece around our paid staff. We worked to help everyone have an opportunity to make the most of their skills, start to grow our own, help develop the pathway of people for the future, and some stuff around volunteering that I'm really proud of to this day. You know, we achieved investors in volunteers accreditation, um, which is a really big step. We were one of the first um hospices to be able to deliver that and say, actually, we really do invest in our volunteers, and we unusually, as it was fed back to me at the time, we included our charity shops. We didn't say, well, we'll just focus on the charity volunteers because they're easier to manage. Actually, no, we included the the charity shop volunteers as well because they're just as important in terms of what we deliver right across our organisation. And then with all of the work that we did, we achieved the quick the recognition from the Queen's Award for Voluntary Service, which is uh an amazing honour to receive, and that was testament to the hard work that my team put in. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Um, we forget the voluntary sector and just their support they bring to so many organisations, but they do such a vital job, probably now more than ever. And I also think from having done some volunteering myself, is it's partly about you as well, isn't it? You know, that the there's such a benefit to volunteering and how about you feel about yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

It's a two-way contract, that's the whole thing. Actually, it helps people make the most of themselves, it helps people and make um you know build social circles, make friends, it helps people maximize the skills that they have, or sometimes just take a break. I worked at a hospice once previously where we had a high court judge who used to like to come in on a Saturday and serve tea to the patients in the adult hospice, you know. I remember having a chat with him and saying, look, I'm sure we can find a better role for that's suitable for you and your abilities. And he was very much like, Don't you dare, I actually love this. I want to be out there talking to people and actually be able to switch off from my high-pressured role and do some good, is what I'm looking to do. So and I think it's something that we should be proud of as a country when you think in 2012 we put on the Olympics again, largely due to the due to the army of volunteers that were involved in that. Yeah, um it's a special thing. One of the things that any volunteer that's ever worked with me, volunteers have a habit when you I introduce myself to them as the chief exec in particular. I kind of go, hi, I'm Trevor I'm the chief exec, and it's very much a oh hi, I'm Flossy, the I'm just a volunteer. And no one's just a volunteer, actually. No, that's not what this is. And yeah, but and again, but the reminder is of course, my bosses, the board I report to, they're all volunteers in the charity sector, my trustees are all volunteers. So it's such an important part of the third sector and so underestimated, and they add such value and such colour to our organisations, and we couldn't support the children and families that we do at Acorns without our volunteers. We're now at we've got 1800 volunteers now at Acorns. Um it's an absolute army, and we just simply couldn't be there for people without them. You know, we worked it out um about a year ago. If we had to employ people to do the work that our volunteers do for us for free, that adds three million pounds to my bottom line costs. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Right. Crazy, isn't it? I wonder if there's more opportunity for volunteers out there actually. There's many more organisations that could probably utilize them actually.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

I think like I said, it is that thing, how do people how can we maximise the skills? I think we've got um one of the things to say about young people is that they're not interested in volunteering, and it's absolutely the opposite of my experience. I think it's difficult to find the time, and I think there is um on all sectors that want to engage with volunteers, I think there's a really important question we need to ask ourselves around how do we make it easy to to undertake the volunteering? How do we enable micro-volunteering opportunities? How do we as a sector avoid a situation where we're putting people off because they say, I really want to give you some of my time? And but there are two big failings that the charity sector has around that particular point. The first is we kind of someone says in the moment, I really want to do some volunteering, and we go, Oh well, that's really good news. Here, if you could just fill in this 18-page form, um, and of course, in that moment a person just goes, Alright, fine. They fill in the form by which time they've already lost some of the enthusiasm, they then send it to the email address, and then they don't hear anything for six weeks.

SPEAKER_05 18:37

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

By which point often the moment has passed. So I think we can improve things around that. And I think the other big challenge for us as a sector is we tend to be very much uh, you know, I think there's another one actually. The first thing so the other big challenge for us as a sector is we have this thing of we need someone for a Tuesday afternoon, um, 12 till 4, and someone will go, well actually I can do 113 till two. No, no, no, 12 till four. Um and so we need to have that flexibility and that understanding. I think the other thing that the charity sector at large, I think some areas are better at at it than others, but there are a number of charity sector organizations where uh you get enormously qualified people that want to volunteer, and that organise that organization ends up saying, So do you want to do admin or charity shops? You know, you get a situation, and I'd like to think this doesn't happen at Acorns, and I think we've done a lot of work on this at Acorns, but it could be that you know we have a highly experienced pediatric palliative care nurse that says, I'd love to give you a day a week of our time. And we go, lovely. So we need someone on reception or we need someone in our local charity shop. I'd say I'd like to think that doesn't happen at Acorns, and we've done a lot of work to try and make sure that doesn't, but it's it's an indicative problem across the sector that we need to be better at as a sector.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Yes, yeah, I can see that. Oh, that's really interesting, and hopefully this conversation generates loads more volunteers. Well, I hope so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

People you know, if anyone is watching this and thinking about it, um, you know, actually the opportunity to engage, you will get as much from it as the organisation does. Yes. And I really encourage everyone to go and find out about volunteering.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Okay. So taking you back to your career journey then, you you're going through this journey, it starts with retail, it expands the people, you're then getting volunteers involved as well, and making sure they're engaged and happy with the work they're doing and getting something back too. There's a senior leadership role calling for you. I can see this is building up as all these uh different events are falling into place. What so what happened next?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

So like I said, it is that thing of I I interfere. It is a way to put it. I kind of look at things and I go, well, let's get involved, let's see what we can sort out. And um the at when I was at Haven's a CEO there took leave of absence suddenly, it wasn't expected, and it wasn't anticipated, but suddenly took leave of absence, and what the trustees turned to me, in fact. I came back from my um Christmas break, and the chair of trustee said, Um, will you hold um the position for us for a couple of weeks? Right. Um and yeah, that was 2018. Um Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was again, it's about steering things, giving that yeah, I was known throughout the organization, um, and they wanted someone to bring that to bear and look at how we might do things differently for a spell.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Right. So were you expecting that conversation when you came back from your Christmas break?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

I was no, it was very much uh kind of alright, what's gone wrong? Um with the the chair of trusted. Game away, would you assume something's gone wrong? And I'm like, Well, you're not, you haven't waited in my office to see if you have I've had a lovely Christmas break. Yes. Um, so it was very much uh it was unexpected, yeah. Um but that's the thing, isn't it, about leadership? Is it is like I said, it's about a making the most of those opportunities, but also it's about how you're seen by others, I think is the real key thing. Actually, people see you in that way, even when sometimes you you don't see it yourself. Actually, the reality is in those moments people are looking for that certainty, that guidance, and if you have that around you, that's what people will respond to.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

That's a hugely important point, I think, in developing leaders. You know, you don't have to wait for the job title to come along, you can be the leader today, can't you? And that will then facilitate the job title at some stage in the future, but it's being it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, those values. Yeah, well, and that's it, it's about the values, and it is about demonstrating that and not limiting yourself. You know, if I had limited myself, even when I first joined the charity sector, if I'd have limited myself to, well, I'm the guy that looks after the charity shops, then we wouldn't I wouldn't be where I am now in my career. Uh yeah, we used to have executive meetings, director meetings, and I I know because um I was the very first um executive director at Havens that specifically had responsibility for the shops. There was even a discussion about whether or not I needed to attend the wider executive meetings at Havens, and the CEO at the time said, No, I think we should bring him in and at least he'll know then what's going on in the organisation. I never considered that my views should be restricted to just what we when we were talking about the charity shops. Right. I'm not a clinician by background, of course I'm not. I'm not, you know, but an absolutely clinical decision should be made by clinical people. But the reality is that most issues when you're talking about them at that level are leadership issues. Yeah, actually, it's very rare for even my director of care now to bring to the executive team we've got an issue in terms of the clinical care element of what we do, it's around the principles, it's around strategy, and and why is my opinion any less valid? You know, actually I said it's about leadership, it's about saying, okay, well, what's the problems here? And I think the big step um I would say to anyone in terms of moving from that departmental or um specific brief role to the CEO role, one of the big steps that you always have to think about is how are you going to manage and lead people whose jobs that you can't do? Because that's the other question, of course.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

And how do you deal with that? It's about being challenging, it's about asking the right qu questions and encouraging them to think of things in a different way and making sure that they have fully thought through the options and everything else. But also having the humility to say, okay, so what do you need from me? Yes. That's what we're gonna do. What do you need from me to help us deliver that? Yes. I don't have all of the answers, and neither should I have all of the answers, but but our our strategy at Acorns, our strategy at Acorns is to reach more children and families. And it's my job then to challenge Katie, my director of care and the wider care team, to say, okay, so we want to reach more children, how are we going to do that? What are the mechanisms, and what do you need from me to facilitate us being able to do that? And sometimes that can be having a conversation around what asking asking questions around something you've discovered. I'll tell you a true story that helps formulate where we're going in terms of our wish to care for more people where they need us and making Acorns more than a building rather than just three hospice buildings. We want to be where families need us. So having a chat with one of our care team at one of our hospices, and um she was buzzing around. I said, Oh, you look busy today, and she said, Yeah, yeah, we've got um little one coming in. Um he's gonna be really unsettled when he gets here. And I was like, Okay, um, is he you know his symptoms that challenging? And she said, No, we'll be out with settling down quite quickly, but he lives an hour away, and by the time he's done that journey, he will be unsettled, he'll be in a bit of pain and discomfort. Well, that can't be the right way. That can't be the right way to do things. So that was then the foundation stone for us saying, let's be where people are, let's be where people need us. If the family need a break, then that's fine. How do we facilitate that in a better way? How do we do more? Since then, we've doubled our capacity at Acorns to do more in the homes of children and families. Um, and to like I said, the aim of this is to make sure that we truly are where people need us, and uh we help families when you have a diagnosis of a child with a child that has a life-limiting condition, your life becomes a series of battles and a series of fights with hospital appointments, with GPs, with the system, with making sure you you know you understand what time is medication, what time is the um the feeding needed, what time do we need to have meals and and all of that? It's an intensely pressured environment of um more than three-quarters of couples um who have a child with a life-limiting condition split as a result of the pressure their relationship is placed under. So, but how do we at Acorns and more widely had as a sector stop that? How do we uh acorns be the glue that holds the system together? You know, it's great that we might be the one place where they don't have to fight. That's great, that's a starting place. But how do we influence the system so that there's an understanding that it doesn't need to be that way? And what do we need to do to put in place? And it was starting those questions what do we need to put in place as an organization in order to be the glue that holds the system together in order to smooth that journey for children and families, in in order to remove as many bumps as we can. And that's the driver behind where we've been over the last year or so and the direction of our next strategy.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, yeah. Okay. That strikes me as usually important because hospices are something, and palliative care are something that none of us are planning. No, and w we hope never to have to deal with it in certain aspects of our lives, but the chances are we will. Um but it must be particularly heart-wrenching when it's a young person.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yes, I think I think none of us expect to have to deal with it. I'm a father, yeah. None of us expect to have to deal with that with our children. You know, the hope, the aim is that it will happen the other way around, and that's the the norm. So I think families do need extra support because it isn't what they anticipated and it's not the journey that they wanted.

SPEAKER_05 29:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And one of the things I always remind our team, um, uh Acorns, and again, everyone more widely, is the challenge within children's hospice care is um we can't affect the outcome. Yes. But we can affect the journey. Yeah. Um, and we can make that journey give that family opportunity to create special memories, to have treasured memories of their loved ones through the things that we've been able to do, to give their children those moments that they they deserve, um, and to really help support them along the way. We don't just support the child at Acorns, we support the whole family, and it's important to remember that.

SPEAKER_05 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

But that said, I've worked in the adult sector too, and that's a very different type of palliative care because it is very much an end-of-life type service. I suppose what I would say around it all is that I don't think we do do enough thinking about it. I think we all avoid thinking about palliative care because it's an unpleasant thought. And one of the challenges I've made when I worked at Catherine House dealing with um exclusively adult palliative care was even when we think we've had conversations about our wishes, we haven't. You know, most people say, Oh, you know, we've had the conversation. And what they mean by that is they've told their loved one what songs they want played at their funeral, and don't you dare invite mad Aunt Ava to my funeral. But that's yeah, I would encourage all of us to engage with palliative care. It's yeah, we it's gonna happen to all of us. Yes, yeah. Yeah, we all hope that we don't need the service of uh a children's hospice, of course we do. Yeah, but one day we will all need adult palliative care.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, personally, having just gone through it in the last few weeks, it is a real shock, you know, that we don't we're not prepared for death of loved ones. And the very fact that it's always gonna happen to us, yes, there should be more of an open conversation about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

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SPEAKER_02 31:43

So we've talked a bit about acorns there, um, but just I want to go back to how it what happened at Havens at the end there, because you had those two weeks when you were asked to be CEO.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

What happened next? Well, so I held that role and it was it was months that um I was in post there, and we put we did a huge amount of work in that and everything else. And then it is about thinking about then what those next steps are, how do you take the take things forward? Um and yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed, you get the bug, I thoroughly enjoyed that time as CEO. And so then it became how do you done then, wasn't it? Yeah, how do you well and how do you then look at the next opportunity? Which is where Catherine House came in, is actually okay, so what is the next opportunity? There was another one, which I won't name the hospice, it was another hospice role that I applied for as CEO, but they were a hospice that at that point weren't really looking for significant change, and I think that's another thing I would say to any leader is be aware of who you are as a leader and the way that you want to do things, because that's a perfectly legitimate position for any organised to take organisation to take. We want stability, we want to have a bit of time where we consolidate and everything else, but I'm not your guy then. Yes, and that's the thing. I have you know one of the things that I get that still gets me out of bed is what's next, how do we continue to improve, create that culture of continuous improvement and move things along? Um so yeah, having been in the the position of looking at that one and then thought, no, actually that's not for me, then the the Catherine House role came up. But I mean it was there was serendipity involved, um in as much as because I was living in I was I was living in Kent but working in Essex at the time. Um my daughter had just finished university. Right, yeah. And had decided, as they often do, that she wasn't gonna move back to where she was, she was gonna stay up um in Oxfordshire, um, which is where she'd um she went to the University of Northampton, so she was gonna stay up in that part of the world um for this role that she'd found, which um and we had that whole conversation, she and I, on the telephone, and I I remember saying to the chief exec at Havens um that it almost sounded like um I was making it up, but we had that conversation um around the fact she was going to be moving, she was gonna look to be living in Kidlington in Oxfordshire, um, her and her friend, and she was gonna take on this role. Um she's children's noise, my daughter, I can't imagine when she gets the passion to do something like that. Um and um I finished the phone call, had a really enjoyed chatting with her and thought, okay, that's nice that she'll be up there, but that's a bit of a way away. And I kid you not, two hours later a recruiter approached me on LinkedIn to say, We're recruiting to this role of the chief executor at Catherine House Hospice. Yeah, as as recruiters do, it was that thing of, do you know anyone that might be interested? Um and it was one of those I'd I said to my wife, I said, It's it's it's serendipity here. Um so yeah, threw my hat in for the ring for the role. Um we were just coming, we were well, I was gonna say coming out of COVID, but actually I don't even think we could say honestly we were coming out of COVID. I think my interviews for the role were took place um online. Yeah. Um that's the environment that we were still operating in. Um but it was an exciting role, it was an opportunity to to take things forward, and then the move to be closer to my daughter. So that was that was great. So yeah, um all came together. All came together, took on the role at Catherine House. Um it's interesting being interviewed back then because it was online was still new. I know very often now, most of us do, I certainly the first stage of any interview process is very often on on Teams, but actually it was still relatively new then. Um I do remember being asked uh genuinely, um you and I have obviously met today, it probably doesn't come across on camera today, but I'm six foot nine inches tall. You are and you did warm me. I did warm you. Um and one of the trustees at Catherine House actually said to me, When you walk into a room, how do you create an impression? And I had to say I think if if I'd have walked into the room you probably wouldn't have asked that question. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, joined that organisation and it was amazing. They do really adult hospices do really, really important work. Yeah. Um and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

But I don't think you realize you're going to miss children's hospice care until until you've done children's hospice care and then you move away from it for a period. Right, yeah. Um there's something special about children's hospice care because children, even when they're receiving hospice care, are still children. You know, I have been run over by children in wheelchairs, they're shouting the corridor, you know, that they're coming down. I have been shouted at in front of an MP um by a child because the skybox wasn't working. That happened at Acorns. I was showing an MP round talking to him about how you have the sector's funded and whether or not we should be more funding, and the skybox wasn't working. That was what was in the mind of this particular child at that moment, and he came out and had a go at me in front of an MP about when someone was going to come and fix the skybox. And that's what I mean. It's there's something special about children's hospice care that is why I wanted to go back to it, hence the the role at Acorns came up, and my predecessor is now at Hospice UK, he'd gone off to take over Hospice UK, and I had to I hadn't been at Catherine Houser for a long time, but I had to throw my hat in the ring for the acorns well.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Got it, okay. So, yes, that makes sense. I'm I'm guessing sort of senior adult hospices are quite peaceful places on the whole.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yes, they are. They're I mean, as I said, special environments, important environments in terms of the work that's done and and everything else, but yeah, they're they're quiet, they're peaceful to a d uh to a large point. Um, there's still a lot that happens, and you will have experiences in adult hospice um care that you wouldn't get in in children's hospice care, you know. The specialness of a wedding when that happened in an adult hospice, when a couple has decided that actually they want to do that before the the moment comes when they're not able to. Those things are special, but yes, there is something much more um engaging and vibrant, etc., about children's hospice care. And and that's of course the myth busting piece as well, because people assume that we're quite sad, somber places dealing with that very end of life piece, and and there's an element of that that we do, but actually that isn't how I would summarise a children's hospice, and it's not how anyone who's received children's hospice care would summarise a children's hospice. We help families create special memories and we help families uh cope with the unbearable.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Got it, yeah. We're gonna talk about being CEO in a second of that, which I guess it's all connected. But talking about making it a special place, you had Aston Villa as the local football team in recently, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

We've got a really good relationship with Aston Villa, they've been a long time supporter. People who are fans may remember way before my time at Acorns, the Villa um themselves gifted, they didn't have a shirt sponsor for a period of time, and they gifted Acorns the opportunity to be the shirt sponsor. So our name was on the shirt in the Premier League um back some years ago. Um, and yes, they're constantly engaged, and yeah, the the players um come in occasionally to spend some time with the children. Um the the children the moment when a child beats a professional footballer at FIFA is a moment that will live in the child and family's memory forever, and then yeah, they play FIFA with the children, they meet with them. Um I've often joked that you know they come in in their training kit and they gradually give bits of it to the children and the families as well, which is an incredible thing. I I do worry that at some point an Aston Villa player is going to leave and walk naked across the car park, having given away so much of what they wear. But yeah, it's it's really special for the children to meet their idols. One of my um a true emotional moment for me um happened as a result of the villa visit um just before Christmas when a young lad um who's receiving hospice care had met with the players and the specialness that he felt and he turned to his brother and said, This is the best day of my life. And that was a moment actually, having that even regardless. I've been doing this for 16 years, and I had to take a moment to go away and compose myself because um it does still get you, and I think I think that's an important thing to remember when you work in hospice care in general. I think if you reach a point where it never makes you emotional, it might be time to think about something else.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

We do what we do because we make a difference, and if you need to be passionate and emotional about that difference, in my view. Others may disagree, and that's fine, but that's where I come from in that world.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Yes, yeah, yeah. No, that's a powerful story. And I guess part of Acorns is it's so well known, particularly in Birmingham and the surrounding area. I mean, Ozzy Osborne was a big fan as well, and I can't think of anybody more famous in Birmingham than Ozzy Osborne.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

No, well that was I mean, that's amazing, and yeah, this is the thing about a leadership role in uh in a an organisation like Acorns. You know, if you'd have said to me years ago that I would have had to spend a lot of time and as I have done in the last 12 months, talking so much about Ozzy Osborne. And then you know, and an entirely true story. Um I was corrected by Sharon. I used to say, Sharon Osborne, his wife, I used to say I'd seen Aussie Osborne at live at the Marquee for the very first time in 1991, the Marquee in London when I paid for tickets, um, met with Sharon after the concert um and Sharon said to me he played at the marquee in 1992, not 1991. So there we go, it was 1992. But um and Sharon would correct you, I guess. I meant it myself. But yeah, I mean that was an amazing experience. So for those that don't know that are watching this or listening to this, um Aussie Osborne is obviously a musical legend. I I think you know, let's assume that no one's lived lived in a cave and everyone has heard of Aussie. Um, but he decided to do this big back to the beginning farewell concert, yeah. Um, which was gonna be at Villa Park, and it was in June, and it was his final because he had Parkinson's given his opportunity to say goodbye in performance terms to his fans. Um and it was all going to be done in the aid of in the aid of charity, and we were fortunate enough to be named as one of the three charities. We've had amazing support from him on um on a number of things, part one of the you know all manner of things leading up to it. Um he was inaugurated inaugurated into the children's oh for goodness sake.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

It's alright, we'll edit this out.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

There's he was amazingly generous in right through the the lead up to the concert as well. You know, um he was inaugurated into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yes, yeah, and he donated his guitar that was performed at the ceremony um to us to auction. So we were able to auction that that bought in £15,000 for us from auction. But yeah, we were one of the beneficiaries from the proceeds of the concert when it took place, um, streamed around the world. You know, I'm a I'm an old school heavy metal fan, and a lot of my old uh my favourite bands were performing on the day. Um, thanks to the kindness and support of of Aston Villa as much as anything else, I was able to be there on the day and talk to some of the our supporters and the Aussie fans about who we were and what we did, which was an amazing experience, and yeah, and we got to watch the bands as well, which is also another amazing. Amazing experience in general with it all. He was born to perform, and you could see that. I don't think what any of us anticipated was that literally just a few weeks later, Ozzy was gonna pass away. Um there was an amazing outpouring of of grief and love and respect from the whole city of Birmingham. That was absolutely special and a privilege to be part of. And I ended up doing so many interviews talking about the opportunities that we've had, and we are so grateful to the Osborne family who remain supporters of Acorns, you know, they've had their grief to deal with, obviously. Um, but it's the journey with them has been tremendous, and we've we've been really thankful for the support that we got. There was there was some extraordinary numbers banded around in the press, and I don't even know where some of those numbers came from. And we've had our own challenges around that because we had people, well, you don't need money to um to fundraise anymore because you've got all of the Aussie money, but um we received a million and a half pounds um thanks to the kindness and generosity of the family as a result of that concert, which is truly special, and we will always be thankful for being part of that. They continue, like I said, the family continue to be supporters of ours, which is why um when I've met with Shami, she corrected me about which year it was I'd seen him at the marquee. Um but yeah, to be part of that and have that um again the love from the family for what we do and them understanding. And the other really important thing is because of the nature of what we do and some of the myths, um our families often don't feel seen, they don't feel heard, the children and families that we care for, because people don't want to think about it for lots of understandable reasons. I talk to people who say, Oh, I walked past that building, but I can't even look at it in terms of our hospice buildings, and and I understand it, but like I said, it's not who we are and what we do. Our families and the children that we care for felt heard as a result of the kindness and the generosity of Ozzy and the Osborne family. Um the videos of our stories of some of the children that we care for were beamed as part of the stream, beamed around the world and reached right around the world, and we received donations from right around the world as a result of that. It was it's a truly special thing to be part of, and it's a real honour for Acorns that that we were, and yeah, absolute pleasure for me on so many different levels. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Okay, so all the celebrity interaction. I'm gonna take you back though to that first day you walked through the door as CEO of Acorns. How did you feel about that? What what kind of what had changed?

SPEAKER_01 46:46

There was a real sense of responsibility, excitement, yeah, a real sense of responsibility. You know, this is the largest children's hospice in Europe in terms of our geographical reach and everything else, and we need to be there for children and families. So it's a real sense of that responsibility, um, and understanding that the weight of that that sits on your shoulders and the you know the the honour and the pressure that comes with that. You know, we're we're in I'm entrusted with making sure that this organization is there not just today, not just tomorrow, but we will care for children in 30 years' time as a result of the decisions that I have to make every day. Yeah. Um and like I said, that's an honour and a responsibility. Um it for me walking in on that first day, it was around understanding. I think the interesting thing when you join a new organisation as a CEO is uh I've said this to some of the team even at Acorns that you're expected to be in charge and be able to make those important key decisions when you don't actually know where the kitchen is yet to be able to make yourself a cup of tea. Yeah. Um so is it literally day one? We got a problem here. Well they try and make it as gentle as they can for you. Um of course they do, and there's things in place, but two things collide. The first is just reality, you know, there's that pace that we talked about earlier on that I was used to from retail, but it still exists um in the hospice world as well. You know, what's the the thing about politics? Events, dear boy events. Well, it's the same thing's true in a leadership role within the third sector. Um, so you've got that element, and then you've got the element of what got you there in the first place is the fact that you have taken on responsibility often when it wasn't your responsibility in the first place. You've actually just gone, well, someone needs to do this, it might as well be me. So you start to see things and think, well, that needs to be sorted, and of course, you are aware that this time it is your responsibility, so you want to start making those decisions. You know, I started in March, um, which means I started right at the point where we were about to take budget a budget to trustees, which was going to be my budget for the following year. So immediately I had some big decisions to make around that. We're a sector where there's never enough money, the government don't fund us properly. Um, we get less than a quarter of our funding from the government, we have to fundraise everything else. So every year is a juggling act. What can we do? What do we need to do? You know, there's always more to do than there's money to do it. And that meant, like I said, there was that pressure, but also my own view that actually I'm not content for someone else to just present this on my behalf and then just go, so lovely, so I've done that for you. We had a very capable interim CEO who I had a really good handover from. Um, but I I wanted to be part of that. That's what leadership is. You're taking that responsibility, you're taking those decisions, um, and every day is about decisions, and you don't get to pass those decisions on. I often say when I'm about to take annual leave, my wife says to me, What do you want to do on a day off? And I'm like, I'm not making decisions this week. Yeah, it lasts about two and a half hours. Yeah. But you know, that's that's the thing every day.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Yes, yeah, it is nice to go with somebody else's flow, isn't it, every now and again. And just like, yeah, I don't have to worry about this. Yeah. Okay, right. So in this role, there must be times where there's real challenges are presented to you, whether it's to do with finance or pressure on the hospice itself in terms of taking new entrants or whatever it is. You talked about making sure we care for people who are actually outside of the hospice. Is there a framework? Is there anything you do when those challenges hit you to actually manage that situation?

SPEAKER_01 50:48

So there's always that um there's those cent moments, of course, there is when you've and you've got the you make sure you have the right people around you so you've got the expertise that you need.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

But I've never found it terribly helpful to have that sort of framework because you shackle your discretion in those moments when you need to often be agile and make speedy decisions. Um and those speedy decisions are absolutely key sometimes, and whatever you put in place, you won't imagine the next stage of decision making anyway. You know, um, who amongst us had anything approaching a global pandemic, a pandemic, in any level of continuity plan? Um back in 2019, just before all of this happened. Um, and what happened, well, what happened was leadership teams got together on a regular basis, made decisions in real time, and with all of the possible information they had available, and hoped that they got them right. That's you know, and it is about that ownership, it's also about giving that confidence to your team as well as a leader that I've got this. You know what? Follow me, I've got this. It's a lonely role, and that's one of the things I would say to anyone as a CEO. Um, think about where your support is coming from because it has to come, you have to have a trusted network, but that trusted network is not necessarily your team internally because they need to see you as the leader. Um, you absolutely can trust their expertise on things, but ultimately that decision and the responsibility is yours. Yeah, and I think often you think that you understand that, um, but one of those things, the analogy I like to use around it is um when you're about to become a parent, you think you understand tiredness. You think, yeah, you know what, I'm gonna spend some time really, really tired. But you know, I've been tired before, that's fine. And then you find yourself three months in going, oh my god, I didn't know it was even possible to be this tired. I didn't understand it the way I thought it I did. I would say the same thing's true about that transition from an executive director role to that CEO seat, is you think you understand the loneliness of the role, and then you find yourself in being in that hot seat staring out the window, thinking, Oh wow, okay, I've got this decision to make, and you know, there are repercussions here for decades as a result of the decision I make. Wow, yeah. Whether that's looking at how your teams are structured, whether or not that's the service that you provide, whether or not that's the the formation and the delivery of the new strategy. You know, like I said to you, that uh our strategy at Acorns is how do we make sure we reach children and families where they need us to. That's a deliberate decision that will require us to look at how we resource things differently. We don't have the money to extra resource, so we will have to make decisions elsewhere in order to make sure that we're able to drive those decisions forward. And and ultimately those decisions are mine. And that that's when that uh that loneliness of that role strikes you. Um but of course then when you get those right, when you see the difference that you make, when and we're very fortunate, I know what we do is emotional and challenging, but we're very fortunate in the charity sector and in the hospice sector. I get to talk to parents and hear about the difference that we've made. I get to talk to parents, you know, we've got a parent representative um on the board of trustees, for example, um, who used our service and her daughter died in the care of acorns. And she reminds me of the impact that we had on her. You know, I've talked to one of our um he's what call a parent carer champion, um, a guy called Vikas, who talks about the impact of the memory-making stuff and the fact that he's able to cope with everything that happened with his son Orm as a result of the support that we gave. There's no sense of feedback you could receive from a line manager that translates in my world to that impact that you get from that. Yes. And I think there's something special in terms of the leadership in the hospice sector where you get to talk to people whose lives you have impacted in the same way.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

So some people will be listening to this story, Trevor, and they'll be going, look, that sounds really scary. And some people will be listening to this and going, Wow, I'd like to make that impact. I'd like to do something with my working life that has that kind of impact on people. Yes. So if somebody's in a Marks and Spencer's right now, or they're doing a lower-level job within a hospice somewhere, and they're thinking, well, how what's the route forward to become a CEO one day? What advice would you give to them?

SPEAKER_01 56:13

You need to set that example.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

And I think the real if you if you're looking to take on a leadership role, my biggest point of advice I can give to anyone is don't wait to be told that you're a leader.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Show every day through the example that you that you share. And it doesn't mean that you have to start ordering people around. I think that's the worst thing that you can possibly do. I think it is through being open with people, being vulnerable with people, and being accepting that you're not going to be perfect, and so therefore you're going to need to support them and be authentic to who you are. Um I can't change the fact that I've got this East London accent, I often say. I sound like I've wandered off the set of East Enders. Um it changes nothing about how I see things, my ability to lead, and it is an important part of my authenticity is that I am who I am from the background I came from. So my advice to anyone is act like you have the responsibility to deliver whatever it is is your part of the world, whether that's a chain of 14 charity shops, whether that's actually just running a single charity shop for today. That's your responsibility, act like it, take it on, make sure that you take full responsibility and accountability for it. Don't be afraid when you make the mistakes, because you will make mistakes because we all do. Own them, apologize for them if need be, and just say, Yeah, that was me, I made that mistake, because you'll empower others to be able to do the same. And we work forward and work forward and learn together. I think the mistake often people make is they wait to be told that they're in charge before they're in charge. One of the things I would say to any current CEO is the minute you find yourself having to say, Excuse me, but I'm in charge here, you're not, because actually, in making that statement, you've already revealed that you're not in charge in that room. You don't need to remind people, it's just in the way that you conduct yourself and the example that you set.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Wonderful. Great advice. I've never met anybody before who has won an award from UNICEF.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

How did that happen? Well, I mean, it was the organization that won it rather than me personally, although you know, I'll take any award that you'll give me. Um, no, it's so at the core of what we do at Acorns is we place children first and the rights of children. And we know that's in the day-to-day of everything that we do, and so what we decided to do is look at you know, how do we measure that? What are the ways that we can actually truly demonstrate because it's also about self-challenge as well. Are we as good as we think is never a bad exercise to undertake. Um, and we began to look at things, and there's a um UNICEF have the the article around the rights of the child, and we looked at that, and there's a scheme called the rights respecting, and we started to measure ourselves against the criteria and thought actually we we cover this pretty solidly, actually. We did some work to improve things and everything else, and we applied to UNICEF for them to come and have a look at our services and measure and see what they thought. So they we they came along, they wanted to have a look at the service that we offer, they wanted to talk to some of the children and families that we care for and come and inspect us. Um it's an entirely true story to say that on the day of the inspection um we had a couple of teenagers that uh were lined up to talk to the inspectors, and when the inspectors arrived, those teenagers decided they didn't want to talk to the inspectors because they wanted to watch the Formula One instead, and what was a bit of a moment is we had to respect their rights to do that. So they um but again that's really important to us actually. Children make the decisions that they want to make at Acorns, and that's exactly what we're there to do. Yeah um, and they went away, they did all of their work, we had an anxious wait while they came back and they gave us the gold award for this the respecting children's rights, and we were the first organization anywhere in the world that wasn't an educational establishment to receive the gold award for respecting children's rights in what we do from UNICEF. It's a very proud moment for us at Acorns and a really positive journey for us to be on, and to reinforce that in that sense, what we've what lies at the heart of what we do is that respect for children, their rights, and their autonomy to make the decisions that they want to make for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

Fantastic. I love the idea that one of the um reasons for getting the award was that people didn't want to take part in the conversation. It was a bit of a moment, I can tell you.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:15

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

Okay, well, it's been a delight talking to you today. As a recruiter, our kind of North Star is to get the right person into the right job. That's the thing we dream of all the time, and we're conscious there's no such thing as the perfect job, and there's no such thing as the perfect candidate, and we've just got to try and the best we can to get the right person in the right place. But speaking to you today, I'm fairly convinced that you're probably the greatest example of the right person in the right role through what's coming across. So that's wonderful to see. And although there is this somberness about hospice conversation, there's something quite life-affirming about it as well. Because how we look after people in those final moments says all about us as a society, really, doesn't it? So thank you for the wonderful work that you do and all your staff and volunteers at Acorns. What a brilliant job. Um thank you, Trevor. Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

Thank you for listening to Inspiring Working Lives, the Morgan Hunt podcast, driving positive change and helping you to grow your career. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next inspiring conversation. For more insights, opportunities, and updates, head to morganhunt.com.