S03 E04 | Everyone Deserves to Be Heard: John Wheeler's Leadership Journey

What does it really take to make sure someone’s voice is heard? 

In this episode of Inspiring Working Lives, Dan Taylor sits down with John Wheeler, CEO of Advocacy for All, for a conversation about leadership, but more importantly, people. 

John talks through his journey in a very down-to-earth way — from growing up in the Cotswolds, to travelling, working in community roles, and slowly finding his way into advocacy and leadership without ever really having a straight plan. Along the way, he shares the moments that shaped him, the mistakes he’s learned from, and why curiosity has played such a big part in how he leads today. 

They also get into what advocacy really means in practice — supporting people with learning disabilities and autism, navigating complex systems, and why listening properly is often harder (and more important) than it sounds. 

At the heart of it, this is a conversation about trust, responsibility, and the idea that good leadership isn’t about having all the answers — it’s about making space for other people’s voices. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Inspiring Working Lives, the Morgan Hunt Podcast where we explore the public sector leadership journey from honest chats about career highs and lows to lessons and wisdom to inspire the next generation of leaders that will shape our society.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Hello and welcome to the Morgan Hunt Inspiring Working Lives Podcast. Today's guest is John Wheeler, CEO of Advocacy for All, a long-established people-focused charity dedicated to ensuring vulnerable individuals are heard and supported to live better lives. The organisation delivers independent, person-centred advocacy services across South London and the South East. Helping people, particularly those with learning disabilities or autism, navigate complex systems and have a voice in decisions that affect them. John brings significant experience in the advocacy sector, having worked in the field for several years before stepping into the CEO role. Since taking on the position, he has focused on strengthening the organization's operational resilience and impact, addressing key challenges such as systems reliability, data security, and service delivery efficiency to better support both staff and service users. At his core, John is driven by a belief that everyone deserves to be heard, particularly those who are most and often overlooked. Known for his practical, values-led leadership style, he is passionate about building services that not only amplify voices, but lead to real, tangible improvements in people's lives. John!

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Welcome to Morgan Hunt. Thank you so much for coming in. Pleasure, thank you, Dan. It's really uh really pleased to be invited here, so thank you for the invitation.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Okay, we all start off, John, familiar territory. Can you tell us about your childhood and did you have career aspirations as a child?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

I don't think I particularly had anything uh concrete other than what to play cricket for a living. So I actually had a really nice, very happy childhood and uh grew up in the Cotswolds, lots of outside activities, lots of fields played in the Cotswolds in the hills. So I think my first job actually was operating the scoreboard at Gloucestershire County Cricket Club at the Chapman Festival, so paid to watch cricket, it was wonderful. Um I think very early on I realised I wasn't good enough to make a living as a cricketer. And at that stage there was a professional rugby, so that was a flex off as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Oh right, okay. Well gosh, I mean being a professional cricketer, we share an ambitious man. I would really love to tell that as well. But I wasn't really not either. But if I couldn't do that, I'd be either the scoreboard was probably the next best thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I think it was wonderful because I used to uh we used to talk to a lot of the professional players actually in the morning because we get there early to set up, and I think I've always I get anywhere early. I like to be prepped, whatever I'm doing. So we've got bold and prep players before play, so like David Lawrence, uh you know, got this song who died recently, and um some of the other players are here about Sadiq Mohammed, some of the real greats that played Cloucestershire, so it's a real honour to to play, you know, watch them play and that's all too. Well um cross were great in those days as well, weren't they?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Um I'm not quite sure the professional sports we know today, but I probably shouldn't have mentioned some of them that couldn't sit in the school box because we were in a box and with crafty fabrics, they weren't allowed to smoke in the uh changing room, so they couldn't sit in our box and smoke, but um wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Okay, so sport was a key part of your early life. Yes, yeah, very much so. And and and you know, s some of those things in in terms of sport, I think it's Simon Barnes, the press commentator, who says sport is best described as life in fast forward. Yes. And has that been sort of you know transferred into later life?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I think it has because I think it it builds resilience because I think you know, particularly if you're not the best, and even the best you you have failure. And I think cricket is a really good example that you know you're not going to score 100 every match, you're not gonna say five wickets every match. So you have to get used to failure on a personal level, but actually you also have to celebrate victory with a team, so you can have a really bad day, but the team wins, and I think the resilience in enjoying a win is really, really important, and I think anything building a team ethos is really important too. I think it uh you know it builds that understanding that you can't do everything on your own, particularly cricket, and you know, and rugby as the two sports that I played, you have to be part of the team. I you know, I'm probably no surprise looking at my size and weight I was a part of the rugby as well, the the grants of the front and scrum simply do a lot of the pushing and lots of the humid work and all the glory, you know, is elsewhere. And actually, I'm really comfortable with that. One of the things I've always said with my job is sometimes you have to give people their own good ideas. So if we're in potential conflict as an organization, perhaps with a local authority or health, I think it's really important to find a way, you know, again, quoting Napoleon to give people a golden bridge to gross and control. Because if you entrench people, nobody goes anywhere. And I think I don't mind someone kind of coming up with a solution, even if we gently fed it to them. And I think within sports that's also the case, that you know everyone has something to contribute. Yeah, that's great. So important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Giving people ideas. I never heard that put that way, but it's so important. Yeah. Great, okay. So for playing sport as a young person into the score box at Gloucestershire, where did life lead you next?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Uh I well, I was very fortunate to have here in Australia. So we were up to A levels. Uh I I worked for a charity called Tock H that originally actually was uh it's a British charity, but came from the front mind in the trenches in the First World War set up by uh by Padre Eggward Tony Clayton. Wonderful charity still going today, and they uh they had uh branches in Australia, so I was really lucky to work for Tock H and a variety of other jobs in Australia. So I did lots of community work. I suppose that's where my kind of social work in the broadest sense came from. But also I did things like uh worked in a conservation park, so I always offer if anyone needs a one bat injecting, I'm very much a bad or at shearing sheep as one of my other talents, Bolden Bakespin and shearing sheep. Who knew? Yeah, not used recently, but it was a wonderful experience. I I think again it has real resonance for me as a CEO. But when I first started, I didn't really know very much, and you very much learn on the job in the same way you know I I went out to Australia after A-levels and realised how little I knew of you know new lots about Trump in many more history, but not always transferable into the real world. So and I think that getting in love to travel, but also a real understanding of different communities and backgrounds, and just you know, I think I've always been curious, and I I like people who are curious, but I I want to learn, I want to listen, and um and I think having that opportunity for you is just wonderful to come inspire me, educate me, and realise what a wonderful world there is out there.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Right, okay. I guess so that's that sort of ability just to pick anything up, right? With you can fit in one bath and I guess you're tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Absolutely, because I think I always I always describe myself as I'm an operational manager by heart. You know, that's really where I came from through ops. And I think you have to be a pragmatist, you have to find you know there's always a solution, and again, that's part of my mantra with staff that you know there's always a solution. So if they've got a problem, come and tell me and we'll find a solution, but just come and tell me because you know, and again, it's about I think don't want to be judgmental, we shouldn't be punitive because we all make mistakes. And actually, one of the things that I think I can give you a long list of things I haven't been very good at, but one of the things I always try to aspire to is being honest and actually saying to people, I'm really sorry I mucked up that, you know, as CEO, so I got that wrong. We need to do better, I need to do better next time. And I think people appreciate honesty, you know, particularly if it's you know it's decisions you're made in good faith. You know, we learn on the job. And I think any organisation that works with people, every person you meet is different. So, yes, you might have done something previously similar, but every individual's different, whether it's through background or in disability or just their interests. So we make mistakes, and I think learning from them as an organization, as individuals, is really important.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Well, to a certain extent, it sounds a bit revolutionary nowadays, but of course we make mistakes. We all do it, yes. But just to put your hand up and say, okay, I got that one wrong, is really mature and people benefit from it. We don't have to be this fully approved person the whole time and get it all right.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I I think it's really important to show, I mean, you need to show leadership and you need to show resilience and confidence because I think again, one of the lessons I learned probably took me longer than I should as a CEO, is people want decisions. And actually, so for example, in our management team meeting now, we'll have something on the agenda, we talk about it once, and then we make a decision. And actually, I have said if we can't make a decision in a reasonably benevolent dictatorship, I will make that decision taking in everyone's views because I think what's worse is keep coming back and have the same discussions because people are frustrated. And I think teams, people in our organisation want some kind of direction and certainty. So even if it's not the decision they want, it's a decision. So at least there's some confidence, right? We know where we're going, and having that as a part of a big plan, I think is important. So everybody kind of understands the journey and one understands where the all's going, you can understand one part in that. So not because being clear and reasonably assertive when you need to be.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Okay, yes. Okay, so going through this sort of formative stage of your life, we've got school building up, the importance of sport, travels coming into it. Yes, these are all experiences that are building up. But you come back to the UK after a year, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yes, it is, yeah. Then I went to um university at Birmingham and did a social policy degree. And uh partly when I applied obviously the year before I went because I deferred for a year, I wasn't quite sure what to do. It wasn't quite five minutes to go for it to be submitted, but it wasn't far off because I was interested in sociology, psychology. And actually, social policy is wonderful. And again, it gave me a where you could snorkel of the different subjects of things like criminology, housing, social welfare, social housing, um health, all those others were social policy itself. So I think it's that understanding of the broad work because one of our experiences as charity is now one strand, you know, you have to be able to pick a different strand so different commissioners. You have to understand where people's lives sit within a health focus as well as a social care focus and quite cultural and community focus, and having a broad understanding of all those areas of really helpful. Great. Okay, so you're picking out of the university and three years for you. Birmingham? Yeah, three years and really enjoyed it, enjoy Birmingham as well, which was great and great as well as going to a city like things like that, music. Yeah, it's just you know a great uh community to be to growing up in. Um and then I graduated and then got a job in a day centre working with people with learning disabilities. And I think I probably picked that because whilst I was studying, I volunteered a group on Monday night for people with learning disabilities. And uh I introduced your drive the minibus around Berlin and collecting people. And again, there was something really nice about teamwork because in the early days I didn't know where I was going. We had a guy there with a learning disability who built a plant for years, so he would direct me just by pointing right, left. So nice kind of teamwork that we kind of go around the route and pick it up, so relying on other people is important. Um so I really enjoyed that. That probably gave me interest in working with people with learning disabilities.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah, and everybody contributes. Yes, yeah, yeah. Great, okay. What was a particular attraction to learning disabilities and some of that?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I think some of it is that it kind of just a constant sense of legal justice that people with learning disabilities are still very much an unseen and unheard group of people. And I think my direct experience were they were some great people, great fun, really knowledgeable. And you know, I uh I used to just enjoy their company and enjoy supporting people. And I think when I then got a job, I worked in uh in the day service and actually ran a picture framing cooperative, and that was amazing. I I'd never uh I couldn't report work on that old classic. But we we learned to make frames and we would make frames at things like the education classes throughout Birmingham. And I think probably one of the uh most important things we did, we did 60 frames for uh the final uh final show of the Birmingham Polytechnic in its last year to find out degree course. So every frame had to be the same and it had to be perfect. And having people learning disability produce a real quality product was really important. So we were very clear we weren't going to tell out any old rubbish, it had to be good, it had to be perfect. Um it was a traditional day centre up to a point where they're Friday this is going to be the Christmas party. I remember us trying to finish these frames, and someone came in to say the party's got to start, and one of the group saying, We can't, we're missing we're working, and I thought we've got it. It was giving people something that's important to do. Again, as part of the team, nobody could make an entire frame, but everybody could do something, so everybody participated, and we produced great work and then would go out and take the phones back out to the communities in the adult educational classes and give people mostly the time middle-class people, you know, a quantity that they couldn't do themselves. And it was a real status for people who were learning disabilities, and it was the importance of saying we can do the same as everybody else, if you give them an opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That's great. So there's a number of things playing out there. There's probably your operational management skills in terms of the organisation, but that sense of really participating and achieving something.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah, yes, and I think learning as well. I mean, I learned from people because at the time they was also had this constantly in our yeah, in charity career with the local authorities, building room city council were making redundances, and we didn't know if we were going to make redundances, and we were all quite stressed to staff. And one of the people in my group should be going to the day so it's 20 years, said, Don't worry, we've seen this before, it will be okay. And actually she was right, and just having that scared experience of someone who I've seen it all before, and you know, having that knowledge was really important. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Okay, so where did the road take you next?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

After that, I actually well I travelled again uh and uh traveled to Thailand, major Singapore, Bazaarly island down the west coast for six weeks, and then Poland, so I spent another less part of a year travelling, and uh before I went back to do my master's in my social work qualification. Um so qualified as a social worker and actually did advocacy as one of my placements. So I did a social work placement and an advocacy placement. And that's really where I got, I suppose, shoved into advocacy through just the enjoyment of it and seeing the results when you give people a voice and give people proper information and time and support to make choices and express themselves, you know, whether that's verbally or non-verbally, or you know, using their languages. One of the one of the things that still saves it, and I use this army about communication training I do now, is one of the group I had in the day of service, um, in his file said he didn't have verbal communication. And in fact, he did. He just didn't speak English, he was fluent in Urdu and Hindi, but no one ever re-attacked at the time. And it's only as we gain him the confidence to start being part of his team that he started to be picked up English. But actually, so I I wanted a little bit of Urdu to try to kept telling off the most rude elementary, but again, it's just that important, understanding that you know, don't believe what's in the files. It's it's also one of the things I try to do is the importance of making sure all the notes and data is accurate enough today because it's very much a life history of people, not just a snapshot of the last two years or one year. So I think just learning that again, being curious and just check information out, particularly directly with people, they're the experts in their lives. Um we're not, we might think we are, but we have to involve people in gauge credit to actually have the true picture.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

And you think it's curiosity that's really sort of challenging and stimulating you to you know offer the best advocacy you can for these individuals.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yes, I I hope so, and I think so, because again, I constantly learn from colleagues. So I learn from colleagues within our organization and also colleagues from external organisations. We you know, we have what we call three teammates a year, so we're just we've got about 60 staff, about 20 volunteers, so we're just the right size for everybody to come together two or three times a year as a team, and it's always really educational. And the last one's just before Christmas, and we just asked people to stand up and just to talk about what they do, and uh it was amazing because all of the staffs and the advocates, and we have group supporters, we have we employed lots of people who unlearning disability material autism as a label, we're really proud of that. And as they all stood up and just gave their story and talked about their work, for them it's just ordinary, but listening from a bit further away, it's extraordinary the work headed and support they do. And I think uh you know, uh an example is we're just working on our policy around AI, and the more we look at it, the more complex it is. Because one of the advocates said to me that one of the clients has been sending them saying you know, emails saying, I've gone through AI and what your job is, and you had to do X and Y, that's your job. And of course, that isn't accurate. So we've had to be really clear about how we use AI, we won't have the personal information in, being clear about the extents of it, because also we've seen examples of AI not being particularly helpful and giving advice and information that either is dangerous or inaccurate. So I think that it's you know, I can sit in my office standing around in my chair thinking about this, but it's only through talking to the staff and the volunteers, you know, and particularly some of the people who use services themselves that you get the real picture of what I always try to say to people. Please tell me my role, please say, Yeah, that's fine. And again, it's that collaborative effort that realizing everyone's experience is different and everyone has something to contribute.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Right. That's you, yes. Oh, we can so this role of yours then it's sort of building into a leadership yes, CEO position as such, which is so let's go back there. So Burlington University, you do your masters, advocacy is the way forward, and then probably the sort of step next, isn't it, before getting to leadership sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So yes, well, I I I got a job in postings, hence why I ended up down on the South Coast, um setting up an advocacy citizen advocacy project. So this was in 1995, a while ago. Uh, and citizen advocacy was very much the model of having volunteers, forming partnerships with people with a learning disability to enable them over a long period of time to have always develop their skills, you know, been very central to planning their own services. So, and that was a again a really enjoyable job. It was a really good organisation I worked for. Um, they were called Hastings Voluntary Action, so it was again very much in the community of voluntary sector organizations. The learning disability project was one of three, and there's one for people with mental health issues, and one for children and young people. And it was a really formative experience. And my role was to co-ordinate the project, recruit training volunteers. So there's an element of starting to have some leadership in there, uh, but again, very collaborative with the other projects and other people we supported.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Got it. Okay. And you're in that role on the South Coast, all going well, and then things are coming your way in terms of leadership, I assume, in terms of that organisation.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, I was I was well, I also apply for a job for a very large level disability charity and set up another uh quite large advocacy project. And again, that was probably a step up into more coordination, more leadership, more staff to manage. So that again, it felt very much an operational role, but with that element of leadership and coordination. Uh hopefully I started to learn some skills and some experiences to kind of inform you know later on how my leadership's now developed.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

And I assume weekends, rugby and cricket high on the agenda at that stage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Uh watching rugby by then I was probably way too old to be playing, um, but playing a lot of cricket. I'm playing uh cricket for Sussex for probably 10-15 years. And actually that was great fun, although it was quite captive with one of our sides. And actually that got really tiresome, and that was quite suddenly there about leadership as well. Uh it was just so much organising. I mean, it was before kind of internet and before everyone had mobile phones, so I'd literally made 50 calls a week to get a team together because we were a couple of lowly thirds, and everyone's people would nick our players. Um, and that and that was quite difficult, particularly in the voluntary leadership role, because if you you haven't got so many sanctions. But um, because they're trying to say to someone you don't want to travel all the way to Chichester, we're gonna drop you, well, that's fine, they didn't want to play anyway. So it's not much of a sanction. So again, learning about developing, but again, I think there was something about giving people opportunities because if people have travelled for an hour, an hour and a half to a Around play their probably seven pounds match fee, they need to do something, not just field, you know, battle, bowl. And it isn't always you know to the benefit of the team, but you have to support people in trying something and doing something, otherwise it just won't come, yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

These are challenges, but Ben Stoics is not very yes, but you're also supposed to win as well, aren't you? I mean we are because it is an offensive league.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

That's the although I've always felt you find your level in that kind of sport. So if you I mean we were very lucky and got a number of promotions, but probably went one too far, and then I think we got relegated, but you find your level, and obviously there's also three points of uh uh uh players coming through. We were very lucky to have lots of young players, so we were almost a feeder of a kind of system for the young players to come and get you know, playing men's cricket to then come up through, you know, to play in the higher teams. But actually, it was a really good experience because we had a couple of women players play for better cricketers than I were, and that's really great having that diversity of everyone just recognising the skills and values everybody had okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So meanwhile, this CEO role is calling to you.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

How did that come about? Well, I had two, I was thinking about this last time uh and I I was head of operations, uh and then I think deputy CEO of a very large advocacy organisation, and I the CEO left, so I was asked to act up. I think I acted up for nine months. Um so I kind of started yet, that's still an experience in, and at the time didn't want to apply for the for the main road when it came up, didn't feel ready. Um I then moved on to another advocacy organization as head of operations, and again, after about two years, was asked to act up when the CEO left. And we were going through quite a tough time. During the baptism of fire, we had to make a lot of savings in a very short period, and that that was kind of really brutal. But again, it was uh I very much relied on three or four key managers to help with that period. So everybody had a role to play, but it was very much a team effort to try and identify savings, identify when there were redundancies, and that's always the worst part of the job. Um, almost a necessity in charities at the moment, and that's always really hard to do. But again, I think if you do it with honesty, humility and clarity about the bigger picture, it's not great for the people being redundant, clearly, but for the organisation it was important. So I learned some very important lessons about making decisions, key decisions and difficult decisions. Um it's never easy doing that. And again, I remember one we had a manager who was very wise, very experienced, some of them saying to me about decisions, if not you, then who is making it, and if not when, you know, if not now, then when. And that's really important. So actually if they are difficult decisions, just do it yes, but basically as soon as you can, but haven't given it due process and due thought, but don't hang on. I had to do that last week after I was doing some interviewing from another organization, and um I had to give people the bad things they'd learn successful. Uh I I thought I couldn't wait to see the end of the day, but didn't it's one of those things I guess yeah, just reminding myself, you know, if not now, then when to make those calls, those difficult calls first, and it's important. Again, I think it's about clarity and honesty as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Yeah, I mean as recruiters, those are difficult jobs that we don't like doing. Because you always want to give good news, don't you? Yeah. But actually, if you can't give good news, fair, reasonable, timely news is better than nothing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

So that's been asked to get feedback for the as well. So I always offer that to several uh the two people who weren't successful asked for feedback. So I've now got back to the day to give clear and honest feedback. So I think that's important as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Because we all improve by hearing that honest feedback. Yeah, and you don't get the opportunity to get that all the time, do you? So if you eat an occasion where you can receive it.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Well what I I recently did a mention training course around specific to advocacy, which was really interesting because it gave me, it was a 12-month course, it was one session, a day session every month for 12 months. And it's really insightful because it gave me a chance to just stop and think, actually consider. And the contents of the course was really important and there's some really good tools about looking at well what my skill sets are, where my weaknesses are, but also where are you spending your time? It was a wonderful kind of diagram that you look at, well, actually, you know, out of ten, how much time do you spend in the operations or on finance and you know the areas I wasn't very good at the important things that leadership leads are around the promotions, and you know, I'm out of my comfort zone being here today, but actually it's important to do those things, you know, to promote an organization, however, we do that, so then be outward facing. So having the opportunity to learn was really important, and having the opportunity to take time was important, and part of that process was to get 360 feedback. So the person running the course contacted a range of people, so they contacted, I think, two of my board members, three of the manager in the team, a couple of the advocates, and a couple of external people, so commissioners and someone else, and then asked for feedback about me, and that was quite because I had to give some names. You know, I think it was important to do it opening, honestly. So I didn't want to become a bit people, well, they'll be nice. I didn't want nice, I wanted really good feedback, and it was really interesting. It was nice to get good feedback, but it was also really good to get two or three points from people who were very kind with their feedback, but also very honest about actually this would be better to be to improve on that area, and that was really important. So quite a difficult thing to sit and wait for the feedback to come in, but important once you get it. I think you're right, we don't often get constructive and formal feedback. Sometimes do supervision appraisals, but even then it isn't always kind of focused in the way that's about improvement.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

This episode is brought to you by Morgan Hunt, a public sector recruitment agency with over 30 years of experience. Whether you're looking for your next role or growing your team, we match purpose-driven people with organizations making a real difference. Visit Morganhunt.com to find out how Morgan Hunt inspires working lives.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Great. Okay, so John, it's interesting in that sort of summary, you talked a bit about being asked to act up into roles. Yes. And you go, well, I'm not quite sure I'm ready for this. But somebody's seeing something at this stage, aren't they? In terms of going, this is the guy?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

I I guess so, and I probably hadn't recognised that, and actually probably hadn't given it any thought because uh it was almost if I don't, then who was going to? There were some good people around. But I think uh one of the things as charities, particularly Batmancy charities, it's about delivery. It's about are we any good at what we do? So you be in operations, you know, you you get a good picture of what you're all about. And I do think your values absolutely infuse how you're while as a leader. Um, you know, I always feel uncomfortable calling myself a leader, it's not what I'm used to doing. I think it's, you know, I see very much as a leadership too, yes. I am the CEO, and that's probably why uh kind of Soliac with kind of the moment. I mean, we we're only the position we've done well, but only through really hard work from the whole organisation to be in a good position. So I think the I suppose having someone recognize something in you is really important. And uh I mean actually as a as a a result really of thinking of those things, we put together advocacy for all now um a contingency plan because you know it's important that you know there is contingency for everybody to believe in or uh you know being unable to work, whatever that is. Um we I think bringing people to the point where they feel confident and being decision makers and owning that responsibility is really important, and I think partly that's uh interfing into the wanting to be honest with them. I don't want people to tell me what they want to hear, even it's difficult. You know, we went through quite a difficult period and most charities do almost maturing as an organization to from small community groups, something substantial as a business. You know, we are a business, uh we need to be business-like. And I think making those decisions and involving to have very clear management processes, finance, reporting, all those things. Sometimes I'm quite planning for the charities to go through but critical. And I think giving people I suppose the time and the space to be part of that made decisions is really important. So I guess someone saw that in me as well. Even perhaps I hadn't seen it in myself.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

No. So pulling this team together that sits with you around that boardroom table is crucial. Yes. Yeah. How do you go about that?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

I think I think it's about recognising what you need in that team. And I'm really lucky with the matching team we've got back to all because we're quite diverse in just in every way. We've got really good people who understand finance, we've got really good operational people, both in terms of strategic but also day-to-day operations and understand the values of the organisation and very much the heartbeat of the organisation. So it's very much a jigsaw, possibly I know that's always a bit of a cliché, and then I was going to put presentations together, and you know, whenever you put pictures, it's always like putting jigsaw pieces together to be one whole. But that's true, that's what it needs to be. Um, because we want diversity, we want difference of opinions, because otherwise everybody thinks the same, and it's really easy to get led down into a path where you think, well, actually, you've done the same thing all the time. We're we're just about to undertake a really significant strategic review where we want to actually think what we want to be in ten years' time, and I think that's really important to have that ambition as an organization. Again, that's something I've had to learn to be much more ambitious in where we want to be, not arrogantly so, I hope, but just when because uh when charities do strategic plans, maybe we pick two or three years ahead. And if I'm honest, it always feels like we do what you've done for the last two or three years, perhaps a couple of changes. Whereas a bigger and longer term, because the charity world is changing immeasurably, as you will see. So we've got to think about what we will look like in ten years, where will our funding come from, and every chance just like diversification. We're very lucky to have a really, really slim board, and again, very diverse board. We've got people from the city, big multinational organisations and national organisations feeding into our strategic planning, and I've learned loads from them. Uh, you know, it's completely kind of social work trains coming up through charities. You know, high finance wasn't necessarily my thing, but again, I think as a leader, you have to develop an understanding of things like finance and HR and IT. Even if you're not the expert, you've got to have good grounding in it. That's what I would say to the rest of the management team. If you want to regress, these are the areas you need to learn about and take responsibility for. So uh we actually tested um resilience last June. I was very fortunate to be given three weeks' leave. I've never taken more than a week in one go. But it was there. So I actually drove down to the Alps. I think driving down on the first day almost had like a not an anxiety attack. It's like I was like, I'm seeing I shouldn't be doing this, I shouldn't be at work, and almost at that uncomfortable with not being at work for three weeks. And it took me a few days to switch off. Um uh what we did was make sure that all managers who were working uh understood they had responsibility and understood that they could make any decision they wanted because I think you can't delegate and say, but if you can't do it without beat all, you mustn't do that. I think it's huge. All we delegate when I'm around, you are responsible. So our director of finance was responsible for all finance decisions, our business development's responsible for picking up any goods or tenders or opportunities. You know, our operations managers and our referrals manager were all responsible for the managing and making decisions in their parts and actually they flourished because I knew they were because they're all really good. And and one of the messages is almost get out of our area. So it's really easy to sit here to kind of meddle almost, and you know, I don't micromanage, I don't know what to micromanage, but sometimes it's actually saying just make the decisions because they make good decisions. I mean if people feel they're trusted and responsible for doing it, they make good decisions. It's when they think, well, there's no point deciding because someone's gonna overrule me, then what's the point in making any? So I think I think labouring people and people have been confident that they can make decisions. But if it's a decision I wouldn't have made, either, well, that was your decision, fine, or you might have picked it a bit later and think, well, would you do it differently? But I do that in my decision making anyway, regularly review it and think, should I have done that differently? Got it. And it was a success those three weeks off, which is great. Yeah, it was great for me to have three weeks off. But actually I had distance from the day to operations and the day-to-day decision making. So actually, I'm I'm you know, I didn't look at my emails, I didn't look at my work phone, but what I did have was time space to stop and think and consider. And I think I had my personal phone with me to look like notes sometimes usually 2,000 metres up in the app thinking we could do this, whatever this is, and it it just gave me that time to have distance, and you know, I walk my dog obviously from um you know most mornings, and that's when I do all my best thinking because you have time and space to think. So I think as a leader, you almost feel like you shouldn't be seen to be there all the time, but you also need time away. Um, I I have some really good working relationships with other CEOs where I mentor a couple of people, but also have really good relationships where we meet probably three or four times a year, but think about being a CEO of leadership and just picking children, so having that support is really important.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

That is great, yes. Yeah, holidays are fun of working life, aren't they? You need to recharge, you need to find the passion again, keep yourself fit and healthy with it, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

And I think also it because otherwise you just almost do the you know you do what you always do because that's what the energy and the organisation and just the importance of it is, you end up just almost reacting. So it's take some time and some distance to think about let's do things differently. And I I always say with new staff, whether it's group supporters or advocates or uh managers, you know, when you first join, you've got probably three or four months of that kind of golden shield where you can ask any question with real innocence, they're not always absent, nor should they be, but you know, just ask whatever questions you think or question why we do this, because occasionally the answer's we've always done it, but you almost get into bad habits. So I think stopping and reviewing can we do this better is important because why things like quality assurance is really important, it's not particularly very sexy for people to think about quality assurance, but I do think if you can't question what you do and have external people come in, then you're building a house of cards. So actually hearing a different view of the bad news is important because actually we're not doing we're not as good as we think we are in that area. We need to do something about it again. I think it's about the maturity of the organisation and us as individuals to listen and take feedback and think about how we should do things differently. Right, brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

That's that's that's good advice there. In terms of some of your history and things you've been doing, whether it's your travel, etc., but there's a new thrust and direction at the moment for you around sort of being physical, physically active, um, getting time comradeship with fellow people in your group and your association?

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yes, I I think I mean I I've always valued physical activity, I've always valued the time to actually be good to yourself as well. So, you know, I love sports, I love cooking, I love uh you know, being carried things as well, and they're all very grounded things, I think, because they they're quite humbly, all of those people just in the moment, and that's what I really like about them when I exist. I do a high intensity class on Wednesday, and I'm probably one of the oldest there. It's really tough. I always say to the trainer, I haven't enjoyed one second until we finish, I didn't realise that was great. But again, I just exist and I don't think about anything else, I don't think about work. Obviously, I'm working on my fitness, and there's uh there's a group of us who regularly attend, and there's a really good comradeship around, and that's an enjoyment about community activity, and that's why I always love team sport. Um, but I think it translates into our work. We we currently have a group called the All Stars, and it's um run by some wonderful volunteers, and they provide support for people with learning disabilities and also many of them have physical disabilities to do sport and activity. So once a week they do great sporting activity, and again, there's real value in one of them doing physical activity but also being part of a group. And we I mean part of our thrust now is about finding diverse funding for something called fitness food and friends, and it's where people are doing fitness. Uh again, we've got an allotment in one of our boroughs in Bexley, and that's great where you know I love going and seeing uh you know people working on the allotment, and there's a guy there with a learning disability, labor learning disability, who knows so much about gardening. It's wonderful to go and listening and talking to him. And and again, it it they're very supportive, one of the allotment holders, and that's really nice as well about people finding a place in their community. Um, and and I think also there's great value in people learning about environmentalism, about people understanding about the benefits of growing their own food, and then cooking good, healthy food with this wonderful kind of golden strand as I describe it, going through fitness, and then the friendship of people cooking together, gardening together, sporting together. I think it's just really important that everybody has those kind of opportunities as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

And it makes perfect sense to us. But you know, as kids at school we were never taught that way, were we? We've had to find out that. And I guess potentially people with learning disabilities, there's maybe a barrier to some of those things that we see as good healthy behaviours.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

There is, and I think one of the real tragedies, and one of the things that makes me angry still, and I you know, I'm generally quite peaceful soul, but people with learning disabilities on the whole die much of everybody else, 20, 25 years of everyone else, there's people still dying of really preventable issues and diseases. And you know, there's some great services out there, but there's also lots of people, probably some of them hidden in the communities that don't get the same access to good health care or good exercise, and all of those things are really important, and you know, particularly as I as I'm aging rapidly, you know, the importance of good exercise and good diet absolutely focused my mind, and everyone should have those same opportunities. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Okay, so that's what's next for the advocacy project, so the advocacy association rule. Advocacy rule, yes. Um then in terms of other challenges you're facing, I mean we've talked about some of those, but finance is clearly an issue for everybody, isn't it? How are you coping with that? And is there a mechanism you apply to your leadership that helps you get through those difficult times?

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, I think again, it's part of having a really clear plan. So we you know we talk about diversification all the time, and we've spent a lot of time trying to build up on those diversification opportunities because they don't happen overnight, and particularly trying to look at some of the corporate organisations because there's some very good benevolence and organisations, but they want to be really clear what they're getting for their money as everybody should. I've always been very clear a lot of our funding is through public authorities or health authorities. I've always been very clear about our duty to spend money wisely, public money wisely, and be honest how we're spending it. So we always report, mostly we report quarterly, and it's about the numbers, and you know in our jug and the outputs, and but the outcomes are really important, and we uh actually we we've got a project in Kent working with people with autism and also people with autism with mental health issues, and uh we just had some great feedback with someone saying that they've been part of a group seven years ago, and the group had kind of gone off independently, which is exactly what we want of people. We don't want people to be uh you know dependent on advocacy, so they learn the resilience and the skills and the confidence to go off of themselves. And uh, we've also had two or three managers recently have feedback from when they were doing direct advocacy, people saying if it hadn't been for you, I'd have killed myself. Almost it's heartbreaking to hear that, that that's the longer-term value. So, yes, we always measure the last quarter, but actually it's also measuring the last year, two years, five years that you see the kind of long term effects and benefits of people being given support and a voice, and advocacy is really important. It's not the only thing, but it has a really key role to play.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Okay, so John, if if there's somebody Out there listening to this conversation now and thinking, Cool, I love those opportunities. I think I've got something to offer in terms of leadership. What advice would you give to them?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

I think there's a two or three key things. One is get the experience, and again, partly you get the experience by being a leader, but I think certainly one of the things that we look at at SeaFraud is managers taking responsibility for key projects. So actually, things like somebody develops the website, so strategically from the first point, developing it, being part of that through the consultation. I ask other people to take on particular projects, and again, I think the key area is that people need a bit of background around strategy. So actually, have you done lots of organisational thinking? It doesn't need to be massive, but sometimes just a key project and being given responsibility to lead on that. So I'm always encouraging staff to say, yeah, I'd like to do that. Can I lead on that? So things like strategy, some of the more technical things like finance, so people understanding exactly how finance works, that you know, how we run a budget and cash flow and management reports and our responsibilities. I guess the other thing is around the legalities and requirements of running a charity. So things like submitting our accounts on time, being clear with our responsibilities for the charity commission, making sure we have good governance and people understanding that part is important because the other things when you step up to a CEO role, it can be a bit of a surprise realising you need to recruit and train and support good board members or trustees, uh, that you need to understand budgets. I'm really lucky to have good managers that understand their key areas, but that means I can then understand it as well because they they they'll inform and educate me. So I always think if someone wants to step up, ask for those experiences. And I think good CEOs encourage people to take on opportunities. Not you know, I don't want people to feel they can't, I want people to come and challenge me and say, actually, I want to learn how to do this bit, it might be with budgeting or it might be around things like human resources because again, you know, lots of managers are good at managing staff on supervisory level, but understanding you know the technicalities and the legalities of things like you know, tupley. We have tuple is a one of the uh kind of constants in our world, either of us taking staff in when we're new contracts or if we lose them, staff tubing now, so understanding the legal requirements, and that's important. So I think I would suggest people look at the CV, look at perhaps a few job descriptions of a CEO role and see where the gaps are, and then ask to fill those gaps with the opportunities. Wonderful. The other thing I would say is get some training because I think it doesn't need to be huge, it doesn't need to be two million MA management necessarily, although that's as real value, but sometimes just you know some management training, key styles training, because one it gives you skills, but also I think you then feel like you've upskilled yourself as well, and that kind of breeds confidence.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

So putting your hand up, giving an opportunity to get that broad experience, yeah, the key areas, and also put your hand up for training as well, because it is out there, isn't it? But sometimes people have to say, look, I need a hand with this.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

And so we can be specialise, we were really lucky, we we were given some free training through one of the universities in London around business development, and again, that's one of the key areas and strategies we were looking. So I really enjoyed that training because I learned skills and actually then thought I can then bring that back and uh you know cascade that to the rest of the management team. Yeah, and keep on learning is part of a happy career, isn't it? It's kind of full circle back to being curious. I want to learn, I want some new things, I think new things as well to be able to kind of find my imagination.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Well, John, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a wonderful story to hear from the scroll box at Gloucester through to where you are now, and these recurring themes that keep coming up about curiosity and things like that. So thank you so much, and um I'm sure many people enjoy and be inspired by this story. Thank you, Dan. Thank you for the opportunity to tell it.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Thank you for listening to Inspiring Working Lives, the Morgan Hunt podcast, driving positive change and helping you to grow your career. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next inspiring conversation. For more insights, opportunities, and updates, head to morganhunt.com.