No Ordinary Monday
The No Ordinary Monday podcast brings you the most incredible tales from people's working lives. Each week, we meet someone whose work is anything but ordinary - they may be clearing landmines, blowing up movie sets, or exploring uncharted caves.
We dive into the how, the why, and a life-defining moment they’ve experienced on the job. Whether it’s spine-tingling, hilarious, or just plain jaw-dropping, their stories will challenge what you thought a “career” could be—and maybe even change the way you think about your own.
No Ordinary Monday
Shooting Under Fire (Michael Downey)
What drives someone to pick up a camera and head straight into the world's most dangerous conflicts? Michael Downey has made a career of documenting history's pivotal moments from the front lines, filming for major news outlets in war zones across the Middle East, Ukraine, and beyond.
In this gripping conversation, Michael takes us through his remarkable journey from an Arabic-studying university student to accidentally breaking a major story with the Muslim Brotherhood just before Egypt's Arab Spring. That lucky break launched him into a 14-year career that's placed him at the center of global conflicts, from the fall of Mubarak to the early terrifying days of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Michael's account of being in Kyiv when the first bombs fell at 3am on February 24th, 2022 offers a raw, unfiltered window into modern warfare. He describes the surreal experience of navigating an emptying city, feeling buildings shake from nearby strikes, and narrowly avoiding a rocket that missed his rental car "by about six inches." His matter-of-fact descriptions of assessing danger—"you don't have to worry until you can feel the buildings shake"—reveal the psychological adaptations necessary to function in such environments.
Beyond the adrenaline-fueled moments, Michael thoughtfully explores the deeper aspects of his work: how he compartmentalizes trauma, the guilt of being able to leave when locals cannot, and witnessing how history gets written and sometimes rewritten by those in power. His perspective on finding meaning in dangerous work while maintaining mental health offers insights that extend far beyond journalism.
Whether you're fascinated by global events, documentary filmmaking, or extraordinary career paths, Michael's story demonstrates what it means to have "a front seat to history" and the profound responsibility that comes with it. Subscribe now to hear more remarkable career journeys on No Ordinary Monday.
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It's 3am on February 24th 2022, kiev, ukraine. For weeks, the world has wondered if Russia would invade, and tonight the wait is over. The airport is bombed. Citizens panic and evacuate the city, but as many flee, some are staying to do their job.
Speaker 2:You know you'd see the tracers going explosions and you start, you learn to like you don't have to worry until you can feel the buildings shake, when that's, if you start feeling the shaking, then it's getting close and it's like all right, you know might be a bit worried.
Speaker 1:For most of us, war is just a headline. For Michael Downey, it's where he sees through his camera lens, standing on the front lines to bring these stories to the world. Hello and welcome to another episode of no Ordinary Monday. Thank you so much for joining us. I am your host, chris Barron, and each week I sit down with a guest whose job is far from ordinary. We explore how they got there, what it's really like behind the scenes, and then they'll deep dive into the single most unforgettable experience of their career. Our guest this week is someone who doesn't just watch history unfold, he captures it. His office is often in a war zone or some other far-flung place, giving a voice to civilians, soldiers and anyone else impacted by conflict.
Speaker 1:Michael Downey is a conflict cinematographer and director of photography who has built a career filming in difficult conditions, sometimes in the line of fire. His camera has documented conflicts in the Middle East, ukraine and beyond. Michael and I have worked together a couple of times on documentary projects. He's really a fantastic guy to have on a shoot, not just because he's talented, but also because he's full of amazing stories, and I'm really delighted he agreed to come on the podcast, as you heard in that intro. Michael's big story takes us back to the early days of the Ukraine war and his experiences capturing those events. So stay tuned for a real behind-the-scenes look at what it's like to be a conflict cinematographer and what it takes to capture history. You're listening to no Ordinary Monday. Let's get into the show. Michael Downey, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing Good?
Speaker 2:Very good, thank you for having me when are you at the moment? I'm in LA right now, house-sitting, watching the dog and working on an edit. I was just shooting in the Sonoran Desert along the Mexico border for a little over a month Well, like seven weeks.
Speaker 1:Nice Immigration stuff. I'm guessing All the stuff hot topics in the news yeah, exactly never.
Speaker 2:Never a dull moment nice.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say this is actually kind of unusual for us, because you're usually sitting next to me behind the camera as we're interviewing someone else, but actually the the roles are reversed today and you're the one at the uh at the end of the camera being interviewed.
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, it is a bit strange actually have you been. I'd be the one going, chris, like no stop, we've got to cut, like the sound's off, you know, or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the sound's off Now I don't have to do any of that. Yeah, yeah, have you been interviewed before? Just out of curiosity.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, just out of curiosity. Oh yeah, I mean, I mean like new stuff. You know like uh yeah for cnn and bbc after you know something happened in the middle east or ukraine, you know a rocket attack or something doing lives. So yeah, pretty, pretty used to it nice.
Speaker 1:Well, actually, just, we should just say that you and I have, um, I think the the last time that we saw each other in the flesh was probably on a minefield somewhere in an undisclosed location, but actually, um, the first time we saw each other was on a shoot in an ice cave in italy, um, which I think was very much. What's what's interesting about that is because that was very much my comfort zone dangling on a rope in in a cave somewhere, and that was very new to you at the time. And then the second project that we did together was vice versa. You know, we were kind of in a a more war-torn environment. Uh, that was much more your comfort zone and less so mine yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, it's, uh, that uhingarella, yeah, you know, rappelling down, what was it, I don't know. 300 meters, it was like 200 meters, yeah, yeah, that final rappel, like when you came out of the ice plug, that literally took my breath away and everything in your head. When you came off that little ice chute, because it was basically a tunnel that water had made, and then it just spits you out shoot, because it was basically a title that water had made. And then it just spits you out. Um, you know, if you weren't on a rope, if you slipped, it would basically be like a bumping slide and then just shoot you off to your death. But like, yeah, pushing off of that was everything in your brain is telling you like, don't do that, don't do that, that's crazy. So, um, yeah, I got, you know that was it's. It was fun being a little bit more out of my comfort zone, you know, for once on the shoot, but yeah, no, it's great yeah.
Speaker 1:So I guess I'd like, obviously for folks. I usually play the sort of directing and producing role in here, using the cinematographer on some of these projects, but I guess you know those kinds of projects like documentary science, factual stuff. That's not the only sort of string to your bow. I guess. If you were to describe what you do for a living to folks, how would you? What's the best way to describe what you do?
Speaker 2:I mean it's a, it's a mix of things because, yeah, some of it is. You know these, these documentary, uh, you know series, uh or features that are more highly controlled. But you know, with some of the stuff I do, you know covering conflicts, you know I've covered the Middle East for 14 years for BBC, channel 4, new York Times Vice. You know Libya, syria, lebanon, iraq. You know very unpredictable and you're hitting the ground running and getting your bearings and figuring out you know what's happening, what's the story, get a lay of the land and, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1:It can be very, very intense, very high pace, so yeah, I guess you know a lot of dops or cinematographer, director of photography or cinematographer like you have the luxury of, like you know, time, space, getting the beauty shots like.
Speaker 1:But you're not just getting the shots, like you've probably got to have. Like, as you said you, you may or may not even have a producer. You're kind of set you get, you get a. You basically get a phone call. Stuff is happening in a particular location. Here's a plane ticket, pack your kit, get to the location and then like what happens from when you get off the plane.
Speaker 2:Usually, yeah, I, uh. So I mean, sometimes it's you know I'll get a call and it's like you. You know, can you go in the next few hours, jump on a plane? Because something's happened, like over a year ago there was an earthquake in Morocco and New York Times called and said can you go? You know, right away? So Went there, had a translator and it was basically just Going around. You know, I had to find a driver.
Speaker 2:So you're landing on the ground trying to sort out basic logistics and things and then thinking, well, we got to get out there, like right away, and kind of driving around the atlas mountains, which you know, roads are destroyed, there's landslides, just complete chaos, and you're trying to figure out how to get around all that. And you know, still thinking, you know we got to get the story. Part of it is, you know you can make. You know the obstacles are getting the place part of the story. But you're like, okay, well, that that only fills a very small part of it. Now we actually have to get to this village, we have to talk to people, have to talk to rescue workers.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, um, so it's, yeah, it's, it's always it's a little bit stressful, to say the least. You know, and then and then, when you're done shooting, you know, driving back on a really bumpy road, you know, and you're kind of, you see rocks tumbling off and it's, yeah, um, a little freaky, but you're trying to edit in the car on the way back and you know it's because you have to. You know it's, yeah, um, a little freaky, but you're trying to edit in the car on the way back and you know it's because you have to. You know it's news, so you've got to get get things filed and sent pretty quickly, um, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:And I guess the other thing you mentioned slightly earlier is that you know some of the times when you're working you, you might be in conflict, you know. So either you are under um direct threat to your life or your well-being or you're seeing direct threats happening to other people. You might see some really sort of rough stuff from time to time. How do you deal with that kind of aspect of the job?
Speaker 2:um, you know, I think, doing it for so long, you, I mean the, the way I see it is it's. It might be similar of how, like a doctor or a surgeon, you know, dealing with something is you've got a job to do and you've you know you're that? That's real, that's really it. You just compartmentalize and see it that way, I think also, I mean, for me, filming it helps a lot because you're seeing it through the camera. You know it's not like you're there witnessing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's not like you're just there and part of it, you're documenting it and you've got this filter Also. It definitely helps. You know it's. It's a place that's not home. Um, I mean, when I went back to beirut because I'd lived there for eight years, documenting the blast, that was really difficult because my neighborhood was destroyed. You know, everything that I'd known was pretty much wiped out. So that was a very different experience than normally. You're going, you know, to, to conflicts around the world. Where you're, you don't have any, you're not a stakeholder in it, you're not from there, you, you're, you're fortunate enough to. When you're done, you leave that, go far away and you're back in. You know the safety and comfort of your home. So that makes it easier, too, that it's not you don't have this emotional attachment to a place.
Speaker 2:Um, so you know, yeah. And then I mean, the thing about that kind of work is, the more you do it, stuff doesn't phase you anymore you know you just the first time it was quite shocking but then yeah, yeah and then, yeah, then you get, you just get more acclimatized to it. You know, I think it's like it's really unfortunately, it's like anything, you know. Uh, after a while you're just kind of like okay, you know it's same with going to a conflict, a conflict zone where, if you know, there's shelling or there's bombing.
Speaker 2:Uh, you're just kind of like well okay, you know, you don't don't, you don't, you start, you learn to like. You don't have to worry until you can feel the feel the buildings shake when. That's when, if you start feeling the shaking, then it's getting close and it's like all right.
Speaker 2:You know might be a bit worried but um yeah yeah, yeah, and I mean I think it's also it's, um, you know, a bit of a mental kind of defense mechanism, because if every time you were kind of overwhelmed and shot like you, you couldn't do your job, so, yeah, you, you do kind of have to adapt and get used to that too, but it's, it's problematic too, because that stuff's not normal. It's, it's problematic too because that stuff's not normal. Yeah, so you don't you want to be, you know, cognizant of the fact that this is not normal. They try not to completely normalize this or act like oh it's fine, it's like no, you need.
Speaker 2:You do need, um, you know, sometimes to assess things and kind of unpack and stuff and process things a bit but not letting it like impede your work in the moment, like just sort of like package that away to digest later.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, while you're working, while you're there, it's like, uh-uh, you know, do not unpack and process there. You know, get the job, get the job done and then after do a debrief. I mean, now it's becoming, you know, it was a bit taboo, I think, even just 10 years ago, where people, people wouldn't talk about mental health in the industry or anything, or, and now it's become much more common for these big organizations to have mandatory like debriefings and be like, hey, you know, uh, you're good, I know, but you know we want you to talk to. Everyone's gonna have, you know, a session or a few with um, you know the, the company therapist or you know whoever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, yeah, it's like that stuff definitely can, over time, obviously have an effect, seeing just repeated traumatic events and stuff. You know, I mean there's some people that deal with it and you know are healthy with how they deal with it, and then there's others, you see that, like you know, do not handle it well, like they're just, we'll find every vice and excessiveness and, yeah, just kind of like slowly, you know, destroying themselves, which is not, yeah, not very healthy?
Speaker 1:I mean, in saying all this stuff, like obviously you know you guys have seen and done some and witnessed some crazy things, but at the end of the day I mean, do you love your job, do you love what you do?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean it's uh, I've always said it's. It's like you have a front seat to history, um I mean being all these places you know. Um ukraine, when uh r you know, did the full-scale invasion in 2022.
Speaker 2:I mean just shocking moments, you know, obviously a changing point for this century. And then you've got, you know, the Arab Spring in Egypt, in Cairo, when Mubarak fell, that was, you know I was on stage in Tahrir Square, you know there was, I think, 2 million, 3 million people all around there. It was absolutely incredible. So you, yeah, getting to see these moments firsthand and, yeah, and then seeing how those moments then are portrayed or or documented or, you know, written about in news, books and things, and you see, yeah, you, you can see how, how history is written.
Speaker 2:And then you, you know, when you're there for it, you're like okay yeah, I mean, but it's, it's missing you know, you see the some of the nuances and stuff that are how how a very complex event or situation will get boiled down into a headline or a little bit and be overly simplified, you know or how you know when, when one side wins, how history gets written in their favor.
Speaker 2:You know, um, I mean, like, uh, muhammad morsi was the democratically elected president of egypt, was ousted in a coup by president sisi, um, you know military coup that, uh, you know, all of us, you seeing that firsthand of how history was kind of rewritten by cc and the winning side, you know that it was yeah yeah, that was pretty, pretty interesting uh, all right.
Speaker 1:So before we go into your big story, I kind of want to know your origin story.
Speaker 2:You know, starting from, I guess, what you wanted to be as a kid and how you got into what you're doing today oh god, what did you know when I when, when I was a kid I mean well, it's when I was five I wanted to be a paleontologist.
Speaker 2:Nice, you think you think dinosaurs and and then you learn what paleontology actually is and it's, you know, not long in the field. Well, you know, it's like a little bit of time in the field digging very carefully, not not? You know, it's pretty tedious, and then the rest is, you know, in labs and stuff.
Speaker 2:So you know, as I got older, I was like park, yeah, yeah, exactly um but yeah, so after that, after, after your paleontology dream died after, yeah, after, after the five years old, um, you know, I I, when I was, I think, like most young people, I wasn't wasn't really sure. I thought, you know, I thought, as a senior in high school is like, oh, I want to do business. I knew I wanted to, I wanted to travel, um, I wanted something international. So I was just like international business.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, when I went to school at western washington uh university, I started off that the plan do was doing um, international business, um, and then there were arabic classes. So I studied arab, like, oh, you know, that could get me, get me out there. But it didn't take long. I think it was the second semester, uh, my first accounting class, where I was like, yeah, no, no, no, this is, this is not, this is not what I want to do at all. Um, you know, and, and you know, the more you know, older I got, you know a bit more wisdom, education and stuff. I just realized like business for the sake of business just wasn't interesting.
Speaker 2:It wasn't, you know my, you know my goal in life, just making money or whatever, um, and so then you know, I, I just studying arabic. And it didn't take long, like so, after you know it was my end of junior year, I realized I was like, well, I need to. I've been spending so much time on arabic like I might as well just major in this. Otherwise, if I change majors, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be at school forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um and you didn't have like a life goal at this point. You were just like I'm sticking with the Arabic Cause. It's what I know best at this particular moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just kind of like ah yeah, kind of a bit nonchalant about it, like well you know it's a bachelor's degree.
Speaker 2:Like you know, we'll see. And then I ran out of Arabic classes to take at Western Washington University. So I went to American University in Cairo and then I was. You know my minor was international relations. And then I was you know, my minor was international relations. So then I was, I was writing my thesis about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and I remember I would, I would be skipping out on a lot of my Arabic classes to go to these, like to make contact with the Muslim Brotherhood. At the time they were semi tolerated but still illegal. So getting a hold of them, you know, you'd like send an email. They'd say call this guy, text him, you know, figure out like who you are, and stuff, and yeah, yeah. Once they were like, oh, you're a student one. Oh, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:So but you're American. You weren't even Egyptian or Arabic. Do they not have a problem?
Speaker 2:with that?
Speaker 2:no no no, yeah, it no, yeah, it was fine. I think, you know, generally there's, you know, probably a little bit of a suspicion of like, oh, is this guy intelligence? But yeah, I, I was 20 years old, yeah, so you know, they're like, you know they can like, this is an inexperienced kid, you know, yeah, um, and they're like, all right, we'll humor you, we'll give you you know, we'll interview you and stuff. So I, so the question was more about, I mean, the thesis was just like, basically about uh, correlation between uh muslim brotherhood and its founding and then where it is today. And after I finished that, I was just kind of like I've got this guy here. He was um k Hamza, who was on the Shura council, you know like some of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood there, and I was just thinking, you know, in the bit of time I was in Egypt I could tell how unhappy people were with Mubarak and just the state of things.
Speaker 2:They would always say, you know, they'd be careful of how they said stuff. They'd be like mubarak, I hope he sleeps and you're like, oh, okay, that's uh, yeah, interesting way of putting it. So I told him I was, you know, I was like, well, let's, let's talk about, you know, the future of egypt. Um, mubarak's getting old when he dies, if there are free and fair elections. You know where do you stand on. You know, uh, how secular would your government be women's rights, these things?
Speaker 2:And just sat on it. You know, I didn't think anything of it wasn't going to be part of my, my thesis. And then, uh, you know, I was back, went back to to do my last semester, um, at Western Washington University and the protests start happening in Egypt. And you know I'd check with friends. They're like nothing will happen. But from January 25th, like the, by the 28th, it was like okay, something's happening. You know, this is pretty clear and I had never written anything at all, ever been published anything like that. And I just start, I just send out a bunch of emails to various papers and things, and Washington, the editor of the Washington Post, was like well, you haven't, like this sounds interesting, but you haven't written anything.
Speaker 1:So you're a pigeon, I could go do this as a story.
Speaker 2:Well, I said I already had. This was when, like, everyone was like whoa, what's?
Speaker 2:because the mother muslim brotherhood after a few days joined the protests and they were like, oh so, and nobody was had anything from them yet, you know, especially the inside track, I'm, I'm sitting on it, yeah, and then, and I did a follow-up interview, then you know, talking with them and um, so, basically, foreign, foreign policy, um, ran, ran, an article, uh, you know that that I wrote, it was, it was a like I wrote a little bit and then it was just like a transcript of the interview. Um, and then after that, like the atlantic bbc time, all these outlets you know, also like picked it up. So, yeah, it kind of went wild, but that's, you know, that's the thing with this industry is at some point you've gotta, you gotta jump in a bit over your head. That's how you're gonna learn, you know, yeah, and and getting getting that chance, as is always, um, you know the key part.
Speaker 2:But, uh, so, while I was there, you know, I, you know I was like, oh, you know, maybe I'll this journalism thing, like do some more writing or stuff. So I, I uh, I sent a cold email to the editor at rolling stone. I remember a friend was like they're, you're crazy, like you're you're not, you've written one thing like come on, yeah. And then he wrote back and he was like, yeah, you should write for us. So I did a like first piece about this egyptian musician, tamer hosni um, who basically sided with mubarak but then tried to, you know, say oh I, oh, I didn't, I wasn't aware of what was happening in Egypt and stuff and uh yeah, so that was the first piece I did for him.
Speaker 2:And then I started doing, you know, just like longer features. You know, in Lebanon I did a big feature on the war in Syria and and then to kind of just kept progressing into then you know video, because I started to realize that as a writer, unless you're a staff writer, it's really hard to survive off that, you know. Yeah, so video was and it was clear the way the industry is going like video was, you know the future, at least if you're going to, you know, make a living off of it yeah, you know, so, and then you just taught yourself how to shoot yeah, cameras and then just went out and did it yeah, self self-taught, um, you know, would learn by seeing other people do things.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's really just kind of like trial and error. You know, and you know the. I think the part that took the longest was knowing what's a story and how to tell a story. I remember, like you know, when I was first first doing it, hearing people say that like, well, that's not a story, michael, and I'd get angry, be like, yes, I know, and you're like. But then you realize you're like, oh yeah, no, it's, it's not. Yeah, and an event happening is not a, not really a story. You know it's. You gotta have an arc, you gotta have characters and really you think about it. So that took that took a while to get good at seeing the story, how to tell it, thinking active scenes and stuff, um and and not getting so caught up with. I remember, like, early on, you know you're thinking, oh, I need all this gear, I need the fanciest gear, I need the nicest stuff and things you're like no you don't like.
Speaker 2:You just need the right for the right job, like the right thing, but most importantly, just you better have that story and you could do anything with you know whatever.
Speaker 1:Really so, as you know, um, I always ask guests to come on the podcast and tell me a one big beautiful story to use, to use common parlance with the uh, what's going on the states right now? But no, to come on the podcast and tell us one significant career story. You know that really sort of stands out, um, in all their experience. So what would you say? Um, that story would be in sort of start us from the beginning and take us from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess a big I mean obviously a very big moment was covering the Ukraine war from the New York Times it was, I think I first had the call, it was early January and it was becoming clear that Russia was preparing for an invasion. That or it was a huge bluff, but the longer, the closer, more time went on, it was like it was pretty clear that this isn't a bluff, this is most likely happening. So, yeah, early January I entered New York Times calls and basically we're planning on, you know, if this invasion happens, this full-scale invasion, you know, and how would we cover it? What's the plan?
Speaker 2:So I did a little bit of research and, you know, laid out some stuff and then, well, I guess it was three weeks before the war started, you know, flew into Kiev and then, you know, went, went, flew into Kiev and and then, uh, you know, kind of arrived, um, worked with, uh, had a local producer there, um, thomas Rotushny, and he was fantastic, and we basically, you know, just started looking at ways to tell, tell the story of what's happening and, you know, is the invasion going to happen and what is this all really about? So, and this was the first time I'd been to ukraine. So obviously I'm I'm I'm relying heavily on on taras for this, because before you're in the middle east.
Speaker 1:At least you could speak like the local language, you knew what was going on and you can get the exactly subtle inferences and the interviews and the conversations and the conversations and navigating situations. But you were kind of like, uh, this is, this is out your comfort zone totally, totally alien.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was. It was also refreshing. I mean it's first time you know, covering a war, where, if you know there's snow and winter and just everything, everything looks, everything's completely different than what you're used to just before you go into that, like when you jump on the plane and you know you're going into potential conflict zone.
Speaker 1:Like are you? Are you afraid for your life at any point?
Speaker 2:I think the worst part is just before you leave, like there's the, it's like you'll be a bit nervous, like leading up to it. Once you're there, it's fine, it's all like. You know the the too much time to think and sitting there waiting is always the worst. But then, once you're there, you're yeah, you're good, busy, um, yeah, I mean they're obviously like when we got there, it's like things are semi-normal. I mean there's signs of preparation of war and everything you know at the. You know, uh, we'd be filming with, uh, you know, the us military, british military flying in c-17s, c-130s full of weapons and offloading that, and you, everyone knew like something's, something's brewing and coming, but for the most part it's, you know, still strangely normal until until it isn't. You know, uh, and so we were we'd be doing various stories about. You know the, the, the kind of like macro stuff that that you know a lot of this is about. You know it's about russian gas going to europe, um, ukraine moving, obviously moving away from russia wanting to join europe, things like this. And so you know you're doing your normal job but like, looking at, you know these were longer features. You know like four minute pieces and things, and then, all the while, too, looking at, okay, if this starts, what's the plan? Um, some colleagues wanted to be in the east. Um, I, I decided, you know that if, if this did happen, that it was most likely going to be a blitz style, going for kiev, probably going for zelinski, going for all the leadership, and this was going to be a very fast something could happen very fast and the story would ultimately be in Kiev, and that you wouldn't, you'd want to be wary about being too far away, where, if they blow through those lines now, you're in Russian, you know behind Russian lines and they're probably, you're probably going to be detained. As an American, you might be. You'd probably be lucky enough to be detained. As an american, you might be. You'd probably be lucky enough to be detained and then deported, to be released if you're, if you're ukrainian, you, you know there's a lot of people that killed or disappeared. You don't know what happened. Um, so, yeah, as it got closer, I remember you know you start doing the prep where you're like, okay, this is probably going to happen. So, um, you know, we're just. You know you start doing the prep where you're like, okay, this is probably going to happen. So, um, you know we're just using, you know, drivers around, um, but we knew if the war started, a lot of these people are going to get good, we're going to get called up to serve. So I went and rented a car stocked up on fuel, food, water, just everything, where you're like, okay, if you know if we get stuck for a while, you know have a few weeks of supplies, so you're good. And then, yeah, also have have things, be mobile where, if you have to walk out, you know you can, you can do that too. So, doing all that prep.
Speaker 2:And then I remember it was what two nights before the invasion started, putin had his long kind of just this long diatribe where he's speaking about, you know, the, the history of ukraine and russia and the russian empire and everything. And I remember hearing that and going, okay, this is happening, this is absolutely happening. And then, wow, um, someone at, uh, the us defense department told us it was going to start around like3 am I think it was 3 am on a wednesday. And I remember waking up and, like you could hear, they bombed the airport first, um, just a few airstrikes on the airport, just, you know, disabling that. And then that was the first day, that was at least around Kiev. That was it.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, they basically they started, started moving in from Kharkiv, um, and up above from Belarus and and uh, then everyone was leaving Kiev. Basically, they gave enough time for basically everyone, loaded up in their cars and started driving to poland or or moldova and, um, yeah, and then you've got fighter jets, you know, kind of like screaming ahead, just like going around and you're kind of looking up going is you know, is that ukrainian or is it russian? Like where are we? Well, what's what's happening? Um, and the russians, they moved incredibly fast. Um, you know, at first they kind of did they. They blew through a lot of places, they I I think it was the second night that they arrived on the outskirts of kiev. Um, you know, you'd see the tracers going, explosions. And I woke up one morning and there was like a bit of a I'm not sure what kind of munition it was, I want to say a bit of a cluster bomb, but it was right, like missed the car by like six inches, right outside the hotel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I came out and one of the guys was like is this your car? I was like yeah, he's like very lucky.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, okay, yeah, as he proceeded to sort of gently kick the cluster bomb down the road, a little bit like a like a football, yeah yeah, and I was just like man.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I got the full insurance on the car too. Funny thing about that car is it stayed on. I just kept renewing it for the New York Times even after I left and everyone used it. That car I mean just got, it's been through a lot. At some point. One of the guys messaged he saw the car and it was like one of the doors was just kind of smashed or something. And he's guys like message he saw the car and it was like one of the doors was just like kind of like smashed or something. And he's like hey, I saw the car. Are you guys okay?
Speaker 1:Or like I'm like oh yeah it's all right, oh my God, so wait. So that was like an Avis or like just a rental?
Speaker 2:car from a?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'd love would love to be the person that takes that back to them and be like it's missing three doors, it's riddled with bullets, it's like can we just get the insurance on this?
Speaker 2:I mean, all all they had said was just make sure you don't take it into. You know any of the, the Russian controlled areas of Ukraine, you know, like Luhansk or Donetsk? Yeah, cause they were like, oh, don't bring it to any conflict zone. But then after that it was like, well, everything's a conflict zone, it's like there's nothing we can do really.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, that, yeah, waking. Those first first few days were, yeah, it was. It was, yeah, like you're. You're, you're in disbelief and you're wondering, like who, how you know which way is this going to swing? Also, at that time too is, like you know, it was very eerie. Like most people were out of Kiev, most people have left, yeah, so you're in the city just like empty on its own, and occasionally there would be, um, sometimes there would be, I'm not sure if it was like Russianussian, like sleeper cell, or the other times, uh, we found out that they would tell russian soldiers like, oh, keeves, liberated, go ahead. Like and and so you'd have, all of a sudden, just like a five-car convoy just driving in, thinking everything's fine, and then they just get completely lit up. What so? I remember that, oh, my, that happened a few days into it. Yeah, they, they were told like oh, yeah, they've. I think someone told them they surrendered or it was fine. They're like go, go ahead. So they're just nonchalantly cruising in and just got absolutely obliterated.
Speaker 1:Um, are you filming any of this or is this like through stories, through context?
Speaker 2:no, no, that that that was um, we found out. You could hear the fighting going on, but and then it was the next day, you could see all the cars and everything, um, and then, yeah, so we, you know, we, we got out of, we got out of kiev, um, there was, it was basically the timing was, you know, things were closing up, but but there was one way out. You get kind of like through the south and um, so we went like about 70 kilometers out of the city and um, then you know, we arrive in this small little town. There's a little hotel we can stay at, kind of mom and pop bed and breakfast place, and you know they tell us like okay, at 8 pm we turn off the whole, the whole town turns off their lights. So you know the russians can't see us, which I was like. You know they've got radar and maps and stuff. You know this isn't world war ii, the blitz in london, but okay, fine, fine, you know whatever. So you know it's like, okay, out of here. You know, like rural area should be fine.
Speaker 2:I'm like go to take a shower. I get out of the shower and then all of a sudden, not far away, a rocket, just boom, comes in the window, almost just like pops open, and I, yeah, it was really, really shocking. You're like whoa shit, you know, you get the sense of feeling like, okay, we're out, we're safe, it's good. And then that happens. And then, um, this uh, the uh old woman who was running the place is banging on doors telling people to come down, and I don't have any clothes on also. She's opened the doors like come, come, and I'm like, oh, okay, all right, I'm like you know what I'm, I'm gonna get dressed.
Speaker 2:I'd rather I'm, I'm you know if I'm getting bald practical, but I'm yeah, it's like I'm not gonna die naked and yeah, have, yeah, and that image, uh there. So yeah, but um, yeah, and then you know, getting making our way to. After that we decided to make our way to levive, which is in the west, and you know the russians weren't there. So we went, you know, went, kept down south and then came up, uh there. So you go around where the russians were and um, and you're just picking up stories as you go picking up stories.
Speaker 2:We go, like, we went to, like there's the. The last, the next place we stayed was, uh, a children's school. Yeah, um, and you know, some people were sheltered there at first. When we pulled up, they'd like everyone was very wary of, like you know, didn't trust anyone who wasn't from you know they're thinking are you know these spies or whatever?
Speaker 2:so you know, at first it was. It was actually quite tense when we pulled up and then then, once they figured out you know who we are and stuff, they were, you know, very welcoming and kind of sheltered down there and slept for the night, filmed some stuff, then headed to levive, uh, and you know from there film filming, uh, where all the refugees, uh, you know people, people are heading to poland, hopping on trains, trying to get out, um, yeah, it's, you know, is every night you're getting maybe four hours of sleep, jeez, and but but you're running on. So, you know, so much adrenaline and stuff and it's, you know, quite spectacular. So you're you, you don't feel that, I guess, exhaustion until, yeah, it takes a few weeks for for then also to be like once.
Speaker 2:It's always the, I think, the first two weeks of any conflict or war always, you know, usually the most intense. It's where the biggest push happens and then lines will, or first month maybe, and then things will kind of more solidify. You know, like it's the, the pace slows a bit, it's chaotic, um, and that's usually usually then when you start feeling like exhausted.
Speaker 2:So which I, you know, after the first month. Then I switched over to the series you and I worked together on, but that was when then I went right from that to to the arctic. Uh, so you know, minus 40 Celsius uh 45 Celsius and polar bears, you know from from the war in Ukraine to that. So it was, uh, it was a really really stark contrast between the two. Jeez, um, yeah.
Speaker 1:So. So with the Ukraine thing, like you were there for a month, like I'm just curious, cause that's an evolving. When you're doing news, it's like an evolving situation and like the I guess the editor kind of goes you've got enough stories, come back. Or is there like a set thing we're going to send you out for a month and then they don't really want to keep you out any longer than that because people start getting, as you say, worn out and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:No, I for for something like that. It's just, I mean, we're doing sometimes a story a day for every two days, like we're. They're just like, just keep going as long as stuff's happening, geez, um. So there's lots, lots to do, you know, at first, at first it's like dailies, like the. You know, the first first day was people fleeing Kiev and the war starting.
Speaker 2:The second day was, uh, civil defense forces, you know, average citizens lining up to get weapons and you know, and distributing that and people preparing, you know, to defend Kiev, uh. And then third day was you know a big uh, there was a big rocket attack on a building, um, so you know that hit, and then we run there. So then it's you know a big uh, there was a big rocket attack on a building, um, so you know that hit, and then we run there. So then it's like the first first bit of that stuff is usually, you know, reactive Um. And then, once things slow down a bit, then it's like, okay, we can take more time, uh, um, so yeah, it's. It's really, with that stuff, it's as long as stuff's happening, you, you find way, you just keep, keep moving around, keep finding stories. There's always, always something to tell there, you know.
Speaker 1:And so did you when you got recalled were you. Did you get out through Poland? Or how did you get out of Ukraine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, um, we drove from Lviv to the border, which was like an hour yeah and then the line of cars was so long, like we just got out and then had to carry our stuff, which, luckily, one of the security guys was with me, john, who, um, helped me carry my stuff, and he was, I mean, film wise, you'd you'd know it was like it was actually quite light compared to what you know normally you would have for film shoots. It was like I had one pelican case, my big camera bag, tripod and my backpack and a duffel like that. You know, it was like sleeping bag and other stuff and things for just general kind of if you had to camp or survive. Um, and he was, he was just like what is all this stuff? And I told him I was like john, this is, this is not a lot of film, stuff like this is actually light. But we had to carry it like I don't know, it was like four miles and it was like a kind of like dirt, dirt road, just sort of it was.
Speaker 2:That was tough, and then so you're slogging all this stuff and then we get to the border and obviously you know it's thousands of people, yeah, and they're, you know, trying to process people and stuff.
Speaker 2:I think we spent eight. It took eight hours to get across to the, to cross into Poland, just you know, processing everyone, and we got it like we ended up getting over there at like 1am, something like that, and then a guy drove us from the border to Warsaw where stayed at the airport hotel. So then I remember I went to sleep and I was so used to hearing you know jets and things, you know fighter jets or the airstrikes that at. For when I first heard you know one of the airplanes coming in or like taking off, like that, I immediately jumped out of my bed and then, like you know, because usually what you do it's like you roll onto the floor, get, get in the bathroom, get the you know the best cover you can have, yeah, and I remember just being like oh, and not knowing where I was. And then all of a sudden I was like oh wait, you're in warsaw, you're out there, it's, it's fine, it's fine but your your body naturally, you know, doesn't.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, it's just so conditioned to that after a while that must be nuts, Like I know the feeling of like ending a shoot and getting on a plane, but like for you, jumping on that flight home, like it must have been an immense feeling, like reflecting on what you'd experienced, Like what were you, what were those emotions when flying home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of like that's that's when you start, like you process things a bit. You know it's. It's kind of like that's that's when you start, like you process things a bit. You know it's it's kind of overwhelming. Uh, there's definitely some relief. There's also, like you know you, you feel a bit of guilt that you're, you're a lot, you're one of your, your privilege that you get to pick up and leave, you get to go home. Your home isn't affected. To go home, your home isn't affected, you know, you get to go back to a normal life, whereas, uh, you know the people you've been working with and know there and been speaking with there, that that's they don't get a leave, that's that is their life now and you don't know what's going to happen or change for them.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's, um, it's bittersweet, you know there's it's definitely, uh, a mix of emotions, that's for sure what would you say like kind of the back of that or even any of the projects you've done would be like an ultimate career goal? Would it be like winning an emmy or like, would it be more important that, like a story that you did sort of change the course of government's decision, or something like that? What would be sort of something that would be the ultimate goal for you in your career?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think you know awards are I forgot who said this, but someone said awards are like hemorrhoids after a while every asshole gets one. You know, and I've, I've gotten a few and it's like it's, it's nice to be recognized and you're like, okay, great, like um, I mean, obviously, you know, getting an oscar for a documentary film would be pretty great, yeah, but again, I think I think like that's, it's still, you know, it doesn't really change much, like your, your goal should be. I mean, my goal is to tell great stories. Uh, you know, I want to make films, I want to keep making art and and, uh, telling, finding new stories, finding, you know, ways to lift up voices, that's yeah, that's, that's for me what it's about nice and so it's worth the risk.
Speaker 1:Obviously, clearly I mean obviously there's the freelancer as well, and it's not as with any cinematographer. I know there's a huge investment in equipment that's required um, which you know is not it's not um cheap. It's cheaper than it used to be, but it's still. You've got to have a huge investment there. But I guess you get, you know, renumerated numerators are paid well accordingly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's yeah when, when you're working, you get paid. Well, there's long periods. You know it'll be intense periods of working and then lots of downtime yeah you're definitely not. You're not getting rich on this, that's for sure, like you know. I don't know anybody who does it for, for, for money for the money um.
Speaker 1:That's what I was, but um yeah, I just finally like any advice for anyone that wanted to is listen, to listen to this uh episode and go on. Given everything you said, like yeah, I want to do that. Like what, what advice would you give anyone trying to jump into it? You?
Speaker 2:know, I think that I get a lot of people asking about like, oh, you know, I want to be a foreign journalist, or conflict and stuff, and they think that they've need a.
Speaker 2:They need to like hop on a flight and flight and go across the world to the hottest place or wherever things are the most intense.
Speaker 2:But I'd say the first things first is focus on knowing how to tell a story, and that there's a lot of stuff around here Especially I look at America now that there's a lot of stuff around here, like, especially I look at america now, I'm like I'm spending more time shooting here. Uh, because there's there's a lot going on and it's it's really, really important and it's a pretty key moment. And you know, I think that especially, it's especially helped having this other perspective of being living outside of the us, for, you know, over 15 years now, and you know, being able to see this with fresh eyes, as when I come here, like it's, this feels more like covering a foreign country. That's weird, and so I so I think I think trying to tell people say, if you know from your own country, like, try and look, look at it that way, because there are stories all around you there and start there first, and then, you know, make the jump when the timing's right.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, brilliant. All right, Michael Michael Diney, thank you so much. I mean, just before you jump off, I always like to say is there anything you want to plug? Any docs that have come out recently that people can watch any shows or even social media, they can follow you anywhere.
Speaker 2:Um, I asked. One thing I'm terrible at actually is self-promotion.
Speaker 1:Hey. Well, I'm trying to give you a platform. Hey promote yourself.
Speaker 2:I know, I know I need to get. I need to get way better at that. I mean, I post like maybe four times a year on Instagram. I'm just like, ugh, I'm one of those where I'm like just give me the camera and just let me make something and then someone else take care of that. But you can check out my website, michael-downeycom, or on Instagram, michaeldowneyphoto, and, you know, occasionally I'm putting updates on my work and stuff there. You know, maybe I'll putting updates on my work and stuff there. You know, maybe I'll get. I need to get a little bit better about that, Uh, but yeah, yeah, I'd say that's, that's really it. Um, you know there'll be some stuff coming out. Um got the short film for channel four. Uh, that should be out in a few weeks. And then my short doc that I've been doing in depth on immigration situation with ice and activists and migrants that um editing part of.
Speaker 1:Hopefully we'll have a second shoot block and that I assume will be out sometime september, october yeah, maybe a little bit later so and I was gonna say that, uh, fanny winstead, that Zingarella story, I think your showreel, the first frame of your showreel, is in that cave. I remember the drone Exactly.
Speaker 2:Is the cave that went? Oh, that was such a blast to light. Uh, it looked. Yeah, I loved that. Unfortunately, that was the that was the last shot that that drone ever did before it committed suicide. Yeah, yeah, that was wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the drone just went berserk at something 200 meters down some kind of magnetic rock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, poor thing wasn't, I remember I remember mateo being like stop, stop, you're hitting the wall. I'm like I'm not doing it. I'm, of course I would. I know wouldn't repeatedly smash the drone into the wall. It's like it's doing it on its own, poor drone man.
Speaker 1:It just couldn't handle being. It's like I need a satellite to talk to you like that yeah, brilliant, yeah, exactly cool. All right, man, listen always great chatting to you and absolutely easy and stay safe.
Speaker 2:All right, thanks, take care stay safe.
Speaker 1:All right, thanks, take care. And that is it for this week's episode. I just want to say a massive thank you again to Michael for taking the time to share his experiences and a massive thank you to you all as well for listening. For photos, links and more about this episode, head to knowordinarymondaycom and look for the episode page. You can find us also on our socials Facebook, instagram, linkedin and more. If you need help finding us, go to Linktree. Our handle is knowordinarymonday.
Speaker 1:Next week's episode is not one for the faint hearted, especially for anyone with claustrophobia or fear of the dark. My guest is Dr Hazel Barton, a leading cave scientist and expert caver. She relives a near-death experience when she was deep inside a cave which started flooding due to a freak weather event. It's a really crazy story, so hit subscribe now so you don't miss out on that episode. If you have questions or want to share your own career story with us, we'd love to hear from you. Please get in touch via our socials. Please get in touch via our socials or you can email hello H-E-L-L-O at noordinarymondaycom or use the submit your story page on our website. And if you enjoyed this episode, please do two really quick things for us, click five stars and, if you have time, give us a review, and the other thing is tell a friend, that's it. It really helps us grow. The show attract more amazing guests and inspires new listeners. This show is produced, hosted and edited by me, chris barron. Thank you so much for listening and have a great Monday everyone.