Taking On a $16 Million Lottery Scam (CEO)

A $16 million lottery ticket sits unclaimed. Hours before the deadline, an anonymous figure tries to cash in through a Belize shell company. That’s where we start—with a gamble that reveals one of the boldest insider frauds in US lottery history—and with the leader who decided to fight it in daylight rather than bury it in silence.

I sit down with Terry Rich—entrepreneur, former cable TV pioneer, zoo director, and CEO of the Iowa Lottery—to unpack the case that defined his later career. Terry explains how an insider at a vendor wrote code to narrow random outcomes once a year, why the fraud triad (need, opportunity, rationale) is the real risk model leaders should use, and how a string of small clues—including surveillance audio and a bizarre “two hot dogs” alibi—helped investigators connect jackpots across multiple states. We talk bluntly about industry pressure to keep quiet, why he refused, and how transparency actually increased public trust and sales.

Terry’s story stretches beyond the case. From helping launch MTV and HBO to reinventing a struggling zoo with irreverent ideas like “Scoop on Poop” and adult-only “Zoo Brew” nights, his career is a masterclass in creative problem-solving and operational integrity. He shares practical leadership habits—separating duties, documenting exceptions, inviting diverse voices—and the mindset that turns PR crises into credibility. We also explore the modern content landscape: why a YouTube documentary can outpace traditional channels, and how creators can leverage honest storytelling to build durable audiences.

If you’re curious about how insider fraud really works, how to structure teams to prevent it, and how courage in communication can strengthen a brand, this conversation delivers. Subscribe, leave a quick review, and share this episode with someone who geeks out on true crime, leadership, or the strange places where ethics and entrepreneurship collide. What would you have done at that last-minute claim?

Terry's website - https://terryspeaks.com/

Full Documentary: "Jackpot: America's Biggest Lotto Scam" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGsPAfQzakM

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/terich

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TerrySpeaksKeynote/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tlrrhi/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

In December 2010, a man disguised in a hoodie walked into a convenience store and bought a lottery ticket. This ticket will be worth$16 million. But this wasn't the first time that Eddie Tipton found himself with the winning numbers.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

He did it in Colorado, one of our other states. He did it in Wisconsin before us.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

He was the man behind coding the lottery numbers, and he'd built himself a way to win.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

He had all the keys to the kingdom. He put in a code that would allow him one time every year to know the numbers within 200 combinations instead of 2 million or 20 million.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

The red flag started when nobody claimed the jackpot. Then, just hours before the deadline, someone else tried to claim the prize anonymously, raising even more suspicion. So, how did they catch this insider? Criminal investigators closed in, linking clues across states. And what started as a mystery ticket became one of the biggest inside jobs in U.S. lottery history.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

And when we busted him, it took two hot dogs and Bigfoot along with the ticket to figure him out.

Catching the Insider

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Now, before we dive in, I am introducing a new segment to the show. At the end of each episode, I'll be sharing a listener story. A funny, surprising, or just plain weird moment from your working life. So if you've got a great story up your sleeve, hang around at the end of this episode to find out how to send it in. Okay, so on to this week's show. My guest this week has lived one of the most eclectic careers you can imagine, from building cable TV networks in the early days of broadcasting to running a zoo to eventually becoming CEO of the Iowa Lottery. And throughout it all, he's built a reputation for turning unconventional ideas into big successes. Whether it's selling Tiger Poop as deer repellent or helping to build iconic channels like MTV and HBO. Terry Rich is an entrepreneur and CEO whose mix of creativity and curiosity has taken him from being a farm boy in Iowa to boardrooms and newsrooms across America. And as you heard in that intro, Terry's big story takes us deep inside one of the most remarkable investigations in US lottery history. A high-stakes case of big money, hidden code, and the hunt for an insider who tried to rig the system for personal gain. So stay tuned for a behind-the-scenes look at the wild ideas, close calls, and unexpected turns that defined Terry's extraordinary career. You're listening to No Ordinary Monday? Let's get into the show.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Terry Rich, welcome, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Uh, things are going great. Loving talking to new people across the world and uh telling some crazy stories and maybe learn a little from you too.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Oh well, yeah, we'll see. I hope I can impart as much knowledge in my uh in my story's age of career compared to yours, but um we'll see. Fingers crossed, we can only hope. So um I always like to start these uh conversations with uh, you know, we're kind of where my my career and my experiences might be overlaps with the guests. And I guess yours and mine is is very much in the TV world. What I love about people in television and people's stories in television is that everyone has a, you know, it's not like doing engineering or something like that, like, you know, you people went to university and then join an engineering firm. People fall into television in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways. And um I just wonder whether you could tell us how you how you first fell into television.

New Listener Story Segment

Terry Rich’s Unusual Career Path

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Oh, I wanted to be a farmer. I grew up not thinking of TV. I love to watch it, of course. But uh now I I grew up and and uh went to school as a math major, and all of a sudden a guy said, Hey, you can go over here and and uh talk and and and make a living. I thought, hey, that's for me. So I started thinking about radio and TV and getting involved in college. But what really was the big break that I had was uh a couple of people came in and said, We're looking for someone to help us in cable television. And cable wasn't cool then. Ted Turner was just getting started thinking about cable news network and all these different networks. But I raised my hand because all my buddies had gone to broadcast and I was late, so I thought I'd get into it. And it was the greatest entrepreneurial experience I ever had because uh it was just getting started. I say I uh I enjoyed production, I enjoyed TV, and uh it was going really, really well, and and things were growing, everything we touched seemed to turn to gold, and we were expanding. They were paying me these things called stock options. I had no idea what they were, but you know, I was making more than I ever would have on the on the farm. So it it was really fun. And then you always have these critical things that happen in your life. I was doing some on-camera work for this cable company in the old days, and I looked up and I didn't have a five o'clock shadow. So I wrote to Gillette and told him how much I loved their razor. I think I'm gonna get on national television. I get to fly to New York right away. So I sent it thinking in two weeks I'm gonna get on it. And it was like someone trying to win the Powerball in America, winning the big jackpot in lottery. What happens if? What happens if they write back and say, come on out? Two weeks to the day I got the letter and I had failed. They said, Dear Mr. Rich, we appreciate your enjoyment. You don't have the five o'clock shadow. Uh, but you wrote the wrong company. Chick makes that. Oh no, I wrote the wrong. I failed, I failed. And I but I that gave me a desire. I didn't realize that what I had. And so I really wanted to do that more and and always look for ways to do TV and the entertainment aspect of what cable television was, because we got to help start MTV, HBO, all of these different channels, and everything was so fun as we did that. And then the big break really came because I got a call from my hometown that said they're gonna have a centennial. Hey, 100 years old, we've never had anybody famous, you're doing some TV. Would you like to join us? So I said, Well, I'll help you. I but I shouldn't be it. Let's see if we can adopt somebody. So I wrote a press release and I sent out 44 press releases because I hit the copier the wrong number. I was going to do four and a half, 44. So I just started writing uh Associated Press, Miami Herald, London Times, you know, all of the different ones just to get it out there. One person called back. I failed 43 of the 44 times. One person wrote back for United Press International, and they said, We like it, we'll stick it on the wires. Lo and behold, it made the Johnny Carson show. And we got to go out and be in front of 20 million people. And boy, I'll tell you, that really sparked the entertainment and the TV of how easy it was, really, just if you raise your hand and you volunteer and try something, how easy it is to make a success in what you're trying to do. And that's kind of how I got involved in it. And it just went so well. I mean, we did so well, and then at 40, guess what? As it happens, somebody decided to come in and take over the company and and uh do a uh a full buyout. And so uh, well, those stock options turned out to be a pretty cool deal. So now I'm at age 40. What the heck do you do next?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Um, I'm always curious, and people's we kind of touched on a little bit, and I'm always curious guests come on and on their origin story, and we've kind of touched on it a little bit before, but you said you grew up on a farm, you know, in Iowa. Um, and uh as a kid, you know, did you have great aspirations to to sort of leave the farm and become a you know heads of companies and run the lottery and be all that kind of stuff, or were you kind of content with farm life?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

How did it how did it go as a I was definitely content with farm life? It was a great lot. You worked hard, you got money, but you were always friendly, everybody was always joking, everybody was always happy. Seemed like uh, you know, I grew up, I I I assumed we were poor. I of course my last name is Rich, but in general, I don't think we had a lot of money because my generations back lost everything during the Great Depression of America in the in the late 30s. So, you know, but but yet every time we had a meal or we had the family together, we had fun. And so I, you know, that's another thing you always try to look for again because that was something that you when you grew up in that. And and so I try to do the and look for the same thing in leadership qualities to make it fun for people that work for you, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

I I want to just uh touch on I mean, going back to your farm life, you know, you you were on the farm and you I guess you went to you're doing hard hard work in the farm, you know, uh with your dad, and then also going to school. But then you went to you know college and and you did mathematics or something, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, I I uh I mathematics, physics, uh I figured I'd get a PhD and and teach college in math. But I got into a class, and this is back to what how your personality and what drives you, I got into a class to prove in six months with axiom and theorems one was not equal to zero. What? You know, I I just about fell over, you know. I I'd passed out of a year or two of all of that to begin with. It wasn't fun, but the deduction methods of if this then then, so you're always thinking, okay, if we can make this do this over here, we can make this much money over there, proved to be helpful, you know, down the road in the in the theories and and things that we did. Uh but then it took a guy just to say, hey, you could talk, make a living. And I went over to the TV and radio class and then worked at the local radio station and just had an absolute ball. And at the same time, the politics that I mentioned, my mom always was encouraging me to get into leadership roles. I got on the local college entertainment committee for their homecoming and Greek week and all of the different things that that happens there, and got to book all the big acts that came into Hilton Coliseum that were the big stars of the day, Elton John to whoever, and got to and so that kept the enthusiasm going um with all of that for uh for trying to stay in television some way.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Brilliant. And so that you can't you can't mention that guy a couple of times, the guy that you said, oh you can come over here. So was that someone that you were you you did you drop out of mathematics at college or did you complete it?

SPEAKER_02 10:40

I would have had a major if I'd have graduated in a science major, uh, but I had a degree in journalism as a as a sub major. So yeah, um and it was a professor too who taught me that it's better to have tried and failed than to succeed at doing nothing. Yeah, and I thought I always thought about that. You know, that's that's a heck of a deal. It's better to have tried and failed than to succeed at doing nothing. So that's back to the concept you and I are talking about of trying to get a lot of ideas and having a backup if one doesn't work, but but you've got to try something. If you don't actually act on it, you're never ever gonna succeed at at having success in a in a given endeavor.

Farm Roots and Early Ambition

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, brilliant. So basically you had the sub major of journalism, and it was in that you're like, you know, I'm good at talking, I'm good with people, you know, I'm sort of a charming personality. I could sort of make a career out of that, and then you moved over and and did radio and and sort of flourished from there.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Brilliant. I hate to tell you this, but you know what my major is actual? Because it was a science and technology college, I have a BS in speech. Bachelor of Science and Speech is actually my degree.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

BS and speech. I love it. And what did your what did your dad think? Was he kind of was he expecting you to take over the farm one day, or was he kind of like go forth and flourish, my son?

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Farming is tough. And he just said, you know, I think you could make uh a more steady career in in something else, try it and and see. You can always come back, you can work summers, you can help me. But he said, see, you know, kind of see what you can do. And once once you're on TV and you come from a farm in a small community where they didn't get to see people who are ever on TV, then he was really happy because everybody, I saw your saw your son on TV today.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

So he was like, Yeah, I'm good. I'm proud of myself. Yeah, yeah. Keep up your good work. Did you because obviously on the farm, I don't know what kind of farm you guys had, was it with animals and stuff like that? Did that ever transition into your your zoo work?

From Math to Media

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Absolutely. When when when when I came out of having my own companies, I was 50, and I guess you call it midlife crisis. Uh you uh I decided I I gotta get off the road. I mean, I got the money I want, I've traveled what I want. Uh, and they called and said, Hey, would you be interested in helping us? We're taking over the zoo from the city. And I thought, well, I can't raising a giraffe can't be that much different than raising a cow. And and really it wasn't. Uh the only difference was the tigers we had, they're only 300 in the world, and if one of them died for some reason, you know, you're losing the species versus a cow, you can theoretically get another cup. But it was much, much like that. But my whole concept was to go in and make the zoo something different because you got every kid, we had every kid from two to twelve. We're going, they were already going to the zoo, they were losing money. The city was only charging four dollars to get in, and uh the zoo way down the road was doing it for$35. Uh, and but the city didn't want to hurt the kids, and so we started doing crazy stuff. And this is part of the entrepreneur things. We had no money to to build a new exhibit or anything. So I said, What do we have that is uh that we already have that we can use? And I thought, wait a minute, all the animals poop, let's let's do an exhibit, scoop on poop. So the kids could come in and they could see all of the different kinds of poops, elephant poop, giraffe poop, and giggle and point, and then they'd go home and tell their friends, and then everybody's coming out. So we started, you know, building that that uh that base even bigger. Then we said, well, but we got to expand it. Remember back to the diversity when you come up with ideas now we can market them worldwide. Why don't we have more young adults? Well, young adults, I don't want to do this. I did it when I was a kid. Most people go when they're a kid, when they take their kid, and when they take their grandkid. What do we get young adults in? Well, what are young adults like? Booze. So we decided to do a zoo brew. So at night we open the zoo, no kids allowed, and you bring your dates, you do whatever, we have a band, and we have all the animals out, and oh, so peaceful, it isn't a smoky bar. And all of a sudden, we started selling$200,000,$250,000 in booze on these uh people coming in. Isn't that crazy? And and so you find ways to look for, you know, and then once you have success, and the zookeeper saying we can't keep the animals open at night, well, you know, we took some of that money and gave back to them for enrichment uh toys for the animals. Now everybody was happy, and all of a sudden we grew, grew, grew. We increased the price from$4.95 to$9.95 because that still was cheap. And and they're saying, Oh, we don't poor kids can't come in this way. And I said, Well, tell you what, they get in free. So when they come up and mom says, kids, that's too expensive, just let them in because we know the people from the other zoo that's paying$25, they're gonna come over and they're gonna be excited about that price. And all of a sudden, everything just lifted up. And then as you have success, success breeds success. The donors of the zoo who had backed down a little bit because it was run down and not doing well, started giving more, and we did something called an endowment. And nonprofits, you want to have a big fund that just the interest off it continues your operation, and that's a big one in any operations. You got to have cash flow, so you got to have money to be able to exist if you have a bad day or COVID hits or whatever. And so they started donating, and we raised about 15 million in endowments, so that zoo's gonna be around forever, and it's become the second largest cultural attraction in this area.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Brilliant. I I have to ask, with with with the alcohol at the zoo idea, I mean, you must have had some stories of drunken escapades, people trying to climb into the elephant enclosure, and we uh we we started with a lot of cops, a lot of people watching everybody, and it turned out to be the opposite because instead of when you go to a bar, it's enclosed, music's loud, and everybody's pounding and having a great time.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

This people came and just darn enjoyed themselves, and we had some specialty nights too, which kind of added to it. We had one night, a berry manlow night, because we had a zebra that we needed to get pregnant. It was a very uh an ext not extinct, but you know, not many of that species were around. And we got a male and female, and we waited till her gestation period. You can't say that until you're a zoo director. This gestation period was a time that we we put the male in. We knew that they would breed that night. So we had a berrymantalo night. We played berry manilo music, told everybody if you're trying to have a baby, come on out and have a drink, and let's all get together and watch the zebras go at it. And I mean, again, the the earned the earned media, we had all this free press, all the people that came. Uh, you know, they they thought that was a hoot, and all of a sudden people start more people came. And we just became kind of I don't want to uh we use the word hip back in the day, but it you know, it became the in place to go.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah, it's kind of cool, kind of funky.

Reinventing a Zoo with Wild Ideas

SPEAKER_02 17:24

You know, back to the scoop on poop, the other thing that was fun is we figured out that we have white-tailed deer in our area that eat all of our flowers and everything, and it's tough to find repellent, but we figured out we tested it, and tiger poop is a natural predator. Now, a deer has never seen an Iowa, a tiger in the wild. Yeah, but when they smell that for some reason it repels them. So we started selling tiger poop for$25 a bucket, and we were selling out of that left and right, and of course, that's a renewable resource, right? So we were way ahead of this whole renewable resource thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Oh, that's amazing. Uh yeah, you basically had this waste product and you just made money from it. Love it. You got it, and and and things like that, like you know, coming up with ideas like that. Are you I is that something you're kind of in the shower in the morning going, Oh, that's a good idea. Or are you kind of like in a brainstorm meeting with your your senior management?

SPEAKER_02 18:12

I was out just walking in the zoo and thinking, what the heck do we have? What would people be interested in? I saw little kids saying, Oh, oh, look at that turtle, it's pooping. Good enough. You just never know where you're getting where where ideas come from or or how to get them. But that's that's what makes back to the success of making it fun when one of those do work. And honest to God, there's so many that I probably have that that I didn't that didn't work, but no nobody remembers that I said those.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

It must be a dream. I mean, many people out there I know listening to this would be working, running a zoo or just working in a zoo would be an absolute dream job. And I was it a dream job for you?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

It really was. Uh mainly for the reason is that you were helping people, you're helping kids, you're finding ways that kids that couldn't afford it. We just tell the people at the front desk, just let them in. Just don't say anything. Just say go on in. You know, if the mom would say, Oh god, we can't afford it, to you know, it's it's like Disney World. At Disney World, if you notice, they only in the past, now with all the terrorism stuff, they probably have more, but they used to only have one cop sitting in the back room because no one ever stole from their from their uh area. There were never fights because you go to Disney World to have fun, and that's the way the zoo was. And we only had one exit. So if we lost a kid, we would always find them immediately. Yeah, um, you know, we never we never lost a kid. Everybody came fun, everybody had happy, and if they weren't, we gave them a little and the word spread about how neat this new zoo was. You know, I I uh another group came in, it was the LB uh G Q T T K. Everybody came, yeah. They came in and said, Hey, we'd lost our location to have a big Halloween party. I didn't know what was going on. Sure, you know, we'll give you an evening just like the Zoobrew, we'll just shut it down and it'll be yours. Wow. So we had about four employees. So I I walked out, and here's a guy in drag. And I thought, oh no, if my board of directors see this, uh crap. But we became great allies to be able to give them a private place to enter be entertained, have fun. Everybody loves animals, and we now are accepted by all aspects of the community. Again, getting that bushel basket of every color race creed to come together because it was a public public deal. And so that's something that'll be around for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

So one of the big things we love doing this podcast is bringing folks who've had uh amazing, interesting, and unusual careers, such as yourself, um, and really just get them to relive that sort of one singular, most unforgettable sort of experience of their career. And I know you've had so many, but um I mean which one sort of stands out as as that sort of um really exceptional experience?

SPEAKER_02 21:03

The one that really kind of set the end of my career uh in motion uh was the Eddie Tipton case. And that was a gentleman who didn't work for us but worked for a vendor of ours who uh who wrote programming code uh for a one of our lottery games that would automatically draw with a computer the numbers. Well, he put in a code that would allow him one time every year uh on a given date uh to know the numbers within 200 combinations instead of two million or twenty million. Yeah. And he did it in uh Colorado, one of our other states, he did it in uh Wisconsin before us, but he did it in Iowa, and he was unlucky. He walked into a store that had both video and audio. He had hoodie on, he he was covered up, so you couldn't really tell who it was. And so he bought it. We figured out he had won 16 million dollars, and nobody showed up, and we couldn't figure out what was going on, and it started getting really crazy because then all sorts of weird people started saying, Hey, that's mine. I think the the clerk stole mine, or you know, my brother took it, and my husband's in the mafia, and I know they took it, and I get half of it, so you watch for that if it comes in. And then 11 months, about a month before it was going to expire, because no one had claimed it, no one actually had it, and you got to have the ticket to claim it. Uh, we got a call, and the guy said, I bought that ticket, and because we had the video and audio, we knew what it sounded like, we knew it wasn't him, so he created fraud. So we got all the investigators together and we started hunting, and they just gave it up. Well, who gives up 16 million? Bill Gates wouldn't give up 16 million.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

That's a red flag, yeah.

Inclusivity, Community, and Growth

SPEAKER_02 22:48

So uh the investigators started started a case, and it took about four or five years, and ultimately we realized it's this guy who worked for one of our vendors. Um, and we finally busted him, and when we busted him, it took a hot dog, two hot dogs, and Bigfoot, along with the ticket, to figure him out because he when he bought the ticket one, he he was recorded video and audio, and it was the audio, his voice that people recognized when we released it to the media to say that anybody ever seen or know this person. But he bought two hot dogs, and his brother got on the stand when we were trying to get him convicted and said that can't be my brother because he don't eat hot dogs. Well, the guy weighed 350 pounds. So everybody kind of laughed, and the associated press put that out on the national wires and went back to the hometown. And we figured and somebody down there, a FBI person, called and said, Hey, that guy's brother who was on the stand, he's he won uh a jackpot in Colorado, so you should be looking at him. So here's here's the moral of the story. If you are ever going to do anything illegal, don't use your cell phone, don't lose your social media, because we took all everybody's contacts that were involved in all their social media contacts, all their cell phone, and immediately found five jackpots, connected them all together that had been one across the United States and busted them. Now, the moral of that story is um because lotteries are run by each state, so there are 48 different lotteries in America. Australia will have a lottery, England has their lotteries. Uh, but the other lottery directors were saying, hey, let this lie because you're gambling with our$80 billion industry. People are gonna not want to play if you're saying it might be rigged. But my governor, the people in charge of our state, and I said, whatever we do, we're gonna spend whatever it takes to find this because we want the game fair and honest. And so I learned a real key valuable, because you know I'm a promoter, you can tell that already. Promoter. Every time we got on the air, we sold more tickets, ironically. And ultimately, um, we busted it, uh, we figured it out, and he they pled guilty all three three different people. The guy who who did the programming, his brother, and his uh best friend, who all had been claiming tickets all over the all over the U.S. And the moral of that is is trying to figure out when your when your ethics do you do you keep your gut in trying to do that? And of course, I'm a promoter, so I'm always on the air. And every time I'm on the air, we're selling tickets, and they're saying, just shut up. Just you're gonna hurt us if if you if you don't if you just be quiet, it might be a lot better for the industry. But ultimately, did it work? It worked because we found them guilty. We had some we found the evidence, they pled guilty, they went to prison for up to 25 years, and lo and behold, the lottery industry went from an$80 billion industry to about uh um$110,$105 million. It went way up. So it worked because people are thinking, you know, should I gamble you know online off uh Maltese or you know, wherever people are doing it uh online, or or would I be better to do with my lottery because at least they're looking at it. And I think people people figured out hey, it's better to do it that way. And so it it was gut-wrenching. You talk about you know, nights where you're just saying, What the hell am I doing? And and the only thing that worked is we got closure. Usually, if there's a rape, a murder, uh, uh, an assault, you don't get closure because it's appealed all the way up. But our prosecutor and investigators were so good by the time we got through it all, we had enough evidence for them to say, Yep, I did it, and they all cut deals and went to prison for a while, and I think they're all out and doing their thing now. So that that is probably what I'm best known for today. Yeah. Uh in that, and it was kind of a failure in that he was doing it. Why we didn't somebody didn't find it before. It wasn't our employee, it was it's other companies that does it. But uh uh on the other hand, we turned it to success when it was all said and done. So that is rewarding.

The Tipton Case Unfolds

SPEAKER_01 26:55

I wonder just with the Tipton case, I just want to sort of go back and reframe it slightly. So, I mean, just take us from it was an everyday day at the office, you know, you're running the lottery, you know, in Iowa. What was the first that you heard about this this issue, this potential problem?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

First, I heard that we had a problem. I was on a cruise ship near Belize. And ironically, the people who claim this ticket uh formed a corporation in Belize. Well, that should tell you something because that's where most of the tax fraud happens in Belize. Yeah. I'm on the cruise ship, I get a call, and it's from the from the security and the public information officers, hey, we got a problem. We got somebody that's that uh says they they want it, but doesn't sound or look like anything that we have here, we don't think we should pay it. And I said, Don't pay it. We'll take it to court and let the courts decide. Then because if you pay it, you're never gonna see it.

unknown 27:47

No.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Um that's the first thing I heard. And I'm worried because I'm I'm working for the state and it's costing nine bucks a minute to be on this darn telephone on the ship, and I'll catch hell for that, too, you know, spending their money unwisely somehow. Um so anyway, we came back and then we went through the the the two or three weeks, and this person didn't show up. They sent it back to a guy in New York who was a lawyer who said, Okay, I'll I'll try to claim it. And that's when he came in an hour and a half before the ticket was to expire. If they think through this thing, it's the stupidest thing because that just raises all sorts of red flags. But you wait till an hour and a half for the ticket's going to expire to claim it because you think, well, maybe somebody else had at some point, and then and then they give it up, and so giving it up even made it more more weird because it and it just kept but then it was kind of fun, and then it was mysterious, and then all of a sudden you realize you're about to put somebody in prison, and what if they are with what if this deal is with the mafia and I end up with a horse head in my bed? You know, there's some scary times in those those kinds of jobs that you're dealing with millions and billions of dollars. It's uh yeah, you try just to do it as you and I do, wake up every day and do your thing, but you never know.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I I hadn't even considered that.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

So I mean, that was something that you were yeah, you had in the back of your mind was like well, if we were investigating one of the corporations that claimed because two people won the one in Colorado, uh, beside this guy's friend, and and the other one was a question of luck spelled in Spanish, and it was based in um Las Vegas. So I thought this this could be, and so you realize when you're in a management position to trust your investigators, try not to get your nose in the investigation. That was tough for me because it was so interesting. And you know, let let them do your job because you get your nose in it, you could you could screw it up.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Gee, so so I mean, but I mean I didn't I I didn't even have thought that you know the mafia being involved. There's so much as you say, it's one of those things. There's millions and millions of dollars at stake. It's so tempting for not just everyday people like Tipton and whoever but for gangs and organized crime to try and you know get their fingers into this and you had thought about the potential threat and on you know violence against yourself for for messing up.

Belize Shells and Last-Minute Claim

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yep. Me and people that were were doing investigations. Um but it's a little different, I think, being in the Midwest. We just don't have the kind of organized crime that you do if you were sitting in New York or Las Vegas. And at least that's my perception. Whether it's right or wrong here, I may be saying this and some mafia guy come visit me tonight to say, hey, you got to straighten that stuff out. So you know you you just uh you try to do the job the best you can you try to do it as honest as you can and that goes back to your farm upbringing in that you know integrity was always a big deal you know because everybody knew you and if you messed up that was the rest of your life you're stuck there on a farm they you know wouldn't trust you they wouldn't do business with you.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah yeah yeah so basically you had someone that wasn't your direct employee but someone within the system of the lottery who was responsible for you know essentially you know coding the system from from a number generating system came up with a clever scheme of his and uh and then it was basically basically because he'd done it multiple times but it was just the poor execution on this particular event.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Chris here's the here's the lesson I learned because I did a lot of research because I do a lot of speaking now on how to prevent this deal yeah there are three things that get people to steal internally American certified fraud examiners that number one is they need the money. You know hey you know and that's I got caught gambling or I've been drinking too much doing drugs got a divorce I need the money and I need it now. But if you don't have the second one which is opportunity you won't steal because that's where the checks and balances come on. That's why you want somebody to write the PO and somebody different to sign the check you know in simplistic terms. So you got to have the financial need then the opportunity he had the opportunity he wrote the code he combined the code he had all the keys to the kingdom there wasn't anybody overseeing him in that because they had a very small operation for that company doing that. And the third one which is the toughest oversee is rationale. At what point does the devil on your shoulder say you deserve it Sue over there is making more money than you are. You deserve more money you you have the right to go ahead and steal. When those three are combined you're pretty ripe for fraud and that's why you have oversight and controls and checks and balances within an organization. And that's really important in small businesses if you think of small school districts or small businesses where the business manager writes the checks writes the purchase orders and the and the boss that takes too much time to get this out of my out of my face you just do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

That's where you get taken yeah so it's it's it's and basically I guess after that it was just re um refining the system that was in place already to make okay we see there's a there's a there's a gap here we got to fill that gap and make sure that never happens again.

Ethics, PR Risks, and Industry Pressure

Fraud’s Three Triggers: Need, Opportunity, Rationale

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah they yeah and he would the you go almost all will try a small one first. So he did Colorado got six seven hundred thousand dollars and then he did it in Wisconsin got another nine hundred thousand but this big jackpot was coming up and it was going to be on the date that his his code could work and I I don't want to split this money with anybody because he was having other people do it for him. So he wasn't recognized because he was prohibited because he was a vendor of the lottery by our law from buying tickets so he disguised himself and went and bought it himself but our law says whoever buys it has to reveal who bought it and what they look like and he had somebody else say it but because we had video and audio we knew it wasn't him yeah yeah brilliant I have to ask as a entrepreneur self and someone who sees and appreciates um interesting creative ideas and I know this was a criminal act was there ever a small party that was kind of impressed oh absolutely absolutely and and you know this guy uh headed the headed the uh security operations for uh this company that did it and we had seminars all the time and one of the things that everybody does is you get together and say I wonder how somebody could do that or I heard that in Europe they were doing this you know wonder could that happen to us? What do we have for the checks? So every time they got together they were thinking about what do we do to do it. And he was leading those discussions. So if someone came up and said well I wonder what would happen if this happened he just took it back and did it. And so you know we we all do that and I think that's how frauds actually get started because uh you know the people who are in charge of the fraud are looking for the loopholes because they're trying to prevent it. And if they found that you know if you're trying to prevent uh people bringing uh dope over from the over the border uh bringing in fentanyl or whatever uh what if I could figure out how to get a little bit of that once I arrest somebody to go sell I mean it's it's a it's a typical routine. Yeah yeah well there's entrepreneurs and then there's criminal entrepreneurs brilliant um all right well I think just more generally about your sort of career reflecting back on on everything um as I said you've you've been leadership positions in many of these kind of things what what would you say is the sort of secret source there of of being a good leader a good CEO a good president of a company I think you learn that from others my first boss in the cable the ones be fair to people um you know try to be open yeah if if they know what's expected if you people know what's expected they'll do much more for you um so tell them here's our goal here's what we're trying to do if you've got ideas help us out you'll be rewarded if you can help us out um I I think it it is a good way um trying to understand the whole diversity we talked about has been in the limelight over the last few years at least in America and I think uh learning the new ideas being able to adapt and and not if you've got everybody around the table that look like you you probably are missing big big big opportunities so trying to uh trying to look for other avenues so that you're not just selling a widget to a certain area you're selling a widget to this and something else that comes from that widget to a whole new group of of of uh people who do that I think but most of all it's trying to be kind I mean you you try to be fair in in what you're doing and when you have to make a decision try to explain what that decision is so that it seems like and and try to do the best you can in doing that you know give back to the giving back to the community is fun and and handling it but you know in family I don't know I I I do fail in in relaxation though I wish I could do what I see others being able to do of being able to go to a beach and not be thinking about but I I go to a beach and I look over and say I wonder if anybody ever invented a different kind of beach ball you know uh I wonder you know I'm always I'm always thinking what would be what would be the next thing I should try to get involved in I think wait a minute you know I've already done it what the hell am I doing here?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

And obviously like you you're retired now but you still probably keep a your finger on the pulse with what things going and I guess for people that are moving into this similar career trajectory entrepreneurs CEOs heads of companies what do you see is the the biggest difference in today's landscape compared to what it was like when you were kind of working in in uh in that business?

Controls, Small Tests, and Oversight

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Well I think you've got to find an expertise that you know you're not just coming out of college you're not just gonna jump into something because you know it you you've had classes that taught you how to do put two molecules together to create a patent yeah so if you aren't you know that smart or you're not going into something that technical then I think you got to go to work somewhere to show and get associations with people and a business that you really enjoy. You know if that let's talk the zoo if zoo's your deal and you go and look at zoo then look around and see what do the animals need what what kind of vendors are here promoting at the zoo and try to find something that gets your passion so that you can learn the business and then take that knowledge to adapt. If you just go in and say hey I went to the zoo the other day and I saw that they had these coin things that you press and they spend on 50 cents I'm gonna go start making those you don't have any real background of you know you're gonna be way behind and doing and let somebody else pay you and take a job so that you can learn it first before you go in and spend all your money to try to learn it. Interesting yeah I just it's you know I've been seeing some stuff recently where it's like um you know it used to be that you go to college get a degree jump into it um but it's more I think there's more of an entrepreneurial mindset now with a lot more opportunities out there especially with the internet social media people's ideas can just come from nothing almost yeah and isn't it amazing you know we did this documentary on the on the Eddie Tipton case and it amazes me in the old days I'd try to get it on an HBO or something like that. Today we put it on YouTube because it has 10 times the audience of Netflix and we've had 8000 views in a month and a half and it isn't like you'd get them all the first week now we're gonna have a million two million people here in the first year and that's a whole different aspect so you learn all the different you're learning all the time they could we used to call it lifelong learning but for me it's just finding something you really are passionate about and just keeping your eyes open and finding people associates who are knowledgeable in it to help teach you on on how to make it work and then run like hell. Brill um Terry Rich thank you so much for taking the time I mean at the end of these uh chats I always like to sort of say what if you how how do people find you how do people reach you how you know you've got other stuff books and documentaries out there what would you like to tell people about yeah they're they're all out there terryspeaks.com t-e-r-r-y speaks like talking dot com is a place and the other is take a look at the uh take a look at the uh jackpot america's biggest lotto scam is uh is available on YouTube and that it's real easy to find if you just do Lotto Doc D O C Lotto doc like documentary lotdoc.com it'll take you right to it's about 45 50 minutes but that'll kind of show you the things that really messed with my mind over seven or eight years.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yeah I watched it this week it's fantastic it's really interesting for anyone who wants a deep dive on that uh Eddie Tipton case and to find out more about how Bigfoot and uh you know that sort of stuff gets involved then you can go check that out it's a good doc.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Sounds good. Well this was the pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Enjoyed talking to you Terry Hurtz thank you so much for taking the time speak to you soon and that's it for this week's episode a huge thanks to Terry again for sharing his incredible stories and a big thanks to you all for listening. If you want to see more from Terry you'll find links to his website books and the documentary Jackpot America's biggest lot of scam in the show notes and on the episode page at noordinarymonday.com. And as always you can find extra clips and visuals from this episode across our socials Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook and more next week we are heading from the boardroom to the open skies. My guest is Heidi Porch, an incredible pilot who survived every aviator's worst nightmare a mechanical failure that caused her to crash her plane into the ocean miles from land or help. It is a mind-blowing story so make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss out on that episode. Now before I go more on this new segment that I'm going to be introducing at the end of each episode I'll be sharing a short listener story. It could be one memorable moment, a funny mishap or just a surprising twist from your working life. So you can either write them in or send me an audio clip on the website but just keep it short I think one to two minutes is what we're aiming for. And you can stay anonymous I don't need to add your name but if you want to just throw your name in and you'll also get a shout out at the end of the show if it's read out. To send them in head to no ordinary monday dot com and click the listener story page or you can email hello at no ordinary monday dot com with listener story in the subject line. I'm sure there are tons and tons of amazing anecdotes and stories out there so I can't wait to see what you guys send in. If you enjoyed today's episode please do two really quick things for us leave a five star rating and review and tell a family member or friend that's it. It really helps us grow the show attract more extraordinary guests and inspires new listeners. And that's it this show is produced hosted and edited by me Chris Barron thank you so much for listening and have a great Monday everyone