The Road of Life, and Death (Humanitarian)

Headlights in the distance. Two elderly evacuees in the cab. A van bogged down a kilometre from the Russian border. That single night becomes the turning point for Tenby Powell, a former soldier and business leader who now runs one of the few foreign‑flagged humanitarian teams still operating on Ukraine’s front line.

We sit down with Tenby to unpack what aid work looks like when drones own the sky and mines haunt the verges. He explains how KiwiKare moved from broad donations to precision medical impact: Road of Life ambulance transfers, targeted hospital resupply sourced locally, and Heat for Health, a clever programme that turns old water cylinders into stoves and boilers so families can cook and keep warm when power and water are cut. Along the way, he shares candid lessons from the field: why pull logistics beats push shipments, how to plan routes that respect shifting minefields, and when to abort missions because a sector is too hot.

The hardest dilemma sits at the centre of the story: in a war where humanitarian markings attract strikes, how much of every donated dollar should fund electronic warfare equipment, hardened glass, and underbody plates instead of antibiotics, dressings, and fuel. Tenby talks through the numbers, the ethics, and the brutal arithmetic of survival after losing ambulances to drone attacks. He also highlights the partnerships that make the difference—Ukrainian NGOs, hospital directors, and head nurses who set priorities with precision and hold teams to account.

If you care about effective altruism when it counts, modern warfare’s impact on civilians, or what it truly takes to evacuate patients under fire, you’ll find hard truths and real hope here. Subscribe, leave a five‑star review, and share this episode with someone who wants their support to matter. 

Visit KiwiKareUkraine.co.nz to learn more about Tenby's work and help fuel the next lifesaving mission.

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Transcript

Cold Open: A Night Near The Border

SPEAKER_01 0:01

When most of us hear about the Ukraine war, we see headlines, you know, maps on the news, a blur of numbers on the screen. But right now, on the ground, there are real people risking their lives and offering their skills to help.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

We were in Vachansk, about a thousand meters, so one kilometer from the Russian border. And the road was so bad, I mean, almost unpassable. I say to them, I'm stuck, can you come back and tow me out? Radio started crackling and the voices started fading, and then they were gone. And I knew they were coming back.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Tenby Powell was alone in the dark. Two elderly evacuees beside him, artillery flashes on the horizon, and then he sees headlights.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

I thought, okay, this is gonna be either a huge relief or a major problem. And it was a line call as to whether they were Russia or Ukrainian. For Tenbi, that night changed everything.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Today he leads one of the few remaining foreign-flaged humanitarian teams still operating on the front lines. Each day they may face attack from drones, risk of landmines, and the horrors of war.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

We are committed, donkey deep now, and we can't stop, and we will go to the bitter end.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Now before we dive in, just a very quick announcement. For anyone watching on YouTube, you may notice that you are now seeing my face in these intros. Hopefully, this is an improvement. If you guys have any other ideas for improving the show, just let me know in the comments below. Alright, so on to this week's guest. Tenbi Pamel is a former soldier, business leader, and now one of the few foreign-flagged humanitarians still operating deep inside Ukraine, in some of the most dangerous territory on the planet. What began as a one-off trip to go and help has turned into a three-year frontline odyssey, where he and his team have carried out thousands of medical evacuations, delivered critical aid to hospitals under fire, and built up a network of Ukrainian partners who rely on him not just for resources, but for survival. And as you heard in that cold open, this is a real-life thing that's happening now for some people. Tenbi has experienced things that most of us have ever only seen in war documentaries and movies. Moments like getting stranded just a kilometer from the Russian border in the dead of night, elderly evacuees beside him, artillery flashing over the horizon, and a set of headlights approaching that could have been either rescue or capture. That night changed him, and it shaped the way that he leads his organization KiwiKare today, from navigating the drone war that's redefined modern conflict, to protecting his teams in an environment where every humanitarian vehicle is now a target. In this episode, Tenby takes us behind the scenes of this new reality: the improvisation, the pressure, the fear, the responsibility, and ultimately the resilience of the Ukrainian people who refuse to give up. You're listening to No Ordinary Monday? Let's get to the show. All right. Tempi, warm welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today, man?

Meet Tenby Powell And KiwiCare

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Thanks very much, Chris. I really appreciate uh the opportunity. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Oh, fantastic. Thanks so much for uh taking the time. I wanted to just start by sort of taking a step back and and and hearing a little bit about you, um, first of all, your origin story. I mean, you have had so many career hats um in your time. You've you know been in the military, you've been a soldier, you've been in business, you've had a dip your toe into politics once. How do you encapsulate your career, what you've done for a living for all those years?

Operating On The Front Line Safely

Drones Reshape Modern Warfare

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Well, look, it's just a real interest. I I just have an interest in a lot of things and have had business success uh to a level that's enabled me to do this and you know, really do it in a way that ensures it's sustainable. And I'm not talking about self-funding, which did happen in the first instance, so much as having a network where I can reach out to people and and create a vision, paint a picture of the future and how they can be a part of helping. And that's what's really worked with this. Um but but I will say, Chris, the combination of you know military and business skills has been has come together um beautifully for this, for sure. And it is um certainly it's a it's a full-on military environment, and we work mostly in in the Donetsk area, sometimes in Sumy, and sometimes in Hersong. So when we're in places like Krematorsk, Sloviansk, Konstantin, well, we were in Konstantovica last year, that's uh a very difficult, difficult situation now. Uh and places like Drus Kivka, all of which are under huge um pressure today. Um, you know, there is a I I do wear a military hat there, and particularly in respect of safety for our teams. And there are things that we will not do, and when we're not configured to take risks, we've certainly not configured for any defensive capability. If we have to, you know, defend ourselves, we have no ability to do that as a humanitarian organization. And so, you know, sustainability and um longevity is really important. And I use the example we've all flown on an aircraft where you're told to put your own oxygen mask on before you put anybody else's on. Uh, and that the the of course the model is that if you can't help yourself and if you're not looked after, looking after yourself, you can't look after anyone else. And so this is where we we, you know, how we kind of operate. We uh are prepared to go right to the very limits, but we're not prepared to take stupid risks to do so. And we, as I say, we're just not configured. We don't have hardened vehicles, we certainly don't have armored vehicles. So, in a military sense, we have what's called soft skin vehicles, which is just a normal ambulance or van or whatever. Um, and we've lost two so far to drone attacks, and you know, uh, we've still got a driver that's injured, and that reshaped everything for us. You know, when I left New Zealand, I left Ukraine, sorry, back to go back home in in October, November last year, and came back in July this year, it was a completely different operating environment. The proliferation of drones had exponentiated to a level where it was unrecognizable from the environment within which I left. And so today we are seeing the Ukrainians putting up, you know, literally hundreds of kilometres of drone nets, which is to say you drive under a road for 40, 50, 60 kilometres under a net. Uh, we've now got you know electronic warfare anti-drone capabilities in most of our vehicles. But all that does really is tell you there's something there. It can, if you've got the right level of sophisticated tech, it can blind the drone, which is to say take away its video capability. And sometimes it it um it has other you know interference mechanisms, but these this is very, very expensive. And this money that we would, you know, we would rather spend this money on humanitarian aid and and medical aid particularly, rather than having to kit our vehicles out with um with EW equipment, and yet to not do so would be negligent. It's just um uh a risk beyond which we're not prepared to take. So anyway, it's a it's a very different environment. And you know, I would go as far as to say that we're gonna see a stepped change probably every three months in in technological advancement. And it really, you know, it be it's bewildering to know where it's gonna go. But as a consequence, many of the humanitarian aid agencies have stalled. Yeah, and in some respects, rightly so. I've got a bit of empathy for this. Uh, and so we and a few others, mostly private, if I can use that term, humanitarian organizations, um, are up front doing what we've done always under very different conditions, but very rarely today do we see the big aid agencies. I'm not saying they're not there, but it's very rare that we see them. Wow.

Comparing Old And New Warfighting

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I mean, you're saying that all that the nature of war hair warfare uh excuse me, has fundamentally changed, especially in the Ukraine war. And it war evolves all the time. And I I'm really fascinated that you had, as we mentioned before, you had a previous career in the military and you worked in in various theatres. I mean, I would love to just get a very quick snapshot of that and and your thoughts on how warfare now compares to warfare back when you you were doing your your service in as a soldier.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Well, look, I've had the privilege of leading soldiers in uh an international environment overseas. I've had privilege of of commanding a battalion in New Zealand. Um and, you know, these these are these were wonderful years. Um while I won't go as far as to say we could probably throw all the all the training doctrines out completely, we certainly do need to rewrite a tremendous amount of uh what we would, you know, the Manual of Land Warfare uh needs to be rewritten, and it's going to be rewritten as a consequence of the Ukraine war. And we're seeing, you know, um countries spending now, and of course the Americans have put a lot of pressure on Europe, which I'm a bit of a fan of, actually, to step up and take responsibility for their own uh, you know, their own defense. Uh 5%, which I'm sure you know is is kind of divided between 3.5% in hardware and 2.5% or with or 3%, 2%, say, in um other things that would support that hardware, which include um, you know, roads and bridges to move heavy armor over. The reality, of course, is that we're now seeing um such a proliferation of effective drone capability that it begs the question as to, you know, how that money and modern armies will actually be spent. And will it be spent on things like armor? That where a lot of the, you know, I'm talking here about an army, particularly more than a navy and an air force. But will they, you know, will they be spending the that amount of money on armored fighting vehicles when we've seen the huge impact and effectiveness of drones?

Why Tenby Went To Ukraine

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah. I mean, uh, we've been talking about, you know, obviously warfare, and I guess people have been thinking that's in this term of soldiers on the front line, but as you and I both know, Ukraine is it's it's very much the civ the civilians that are hardest hit in a lot of senses, and that's part of what you're doing there.

From Aid Runs To Founding KiwiCare

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yes. And well, this is why. This is entirely why. When I saw that that mass evacuation in February 2022, um, just columns of men, women, and children walking in the bleak uh winter. And I think the the particular one that affected me was where they were crossing the Polish border. Uh, there was a child, uh probably a 10-year-old boy, separated from his parents, and it was just it just broke my heart. And I thought, look, you know, I'm gonna go and do something. I didn't know what it was, to be honest, but it was just anything rather than sit here and and bitch and moan and you know scream at the television. Uh, and so I rang a um a good friend of mine, he was actually a rifle company commander of mine when I was a battalion commander, who was living uh and married uh with children in Warsaw, and he introduced me to an ex-British Foreign Services uh guy, uh a guy called Guy, funnily enough. Uh and Guy Pinzant is now a um a very successful businessman, not just in Poland, but all over Ukraine. Uh sorry, all over Eastern Europe, I beg your pardon. And uh I stayed with Guy for a while and we kind of worked out what would be the best solution and brainstormed a few things. And um, you know, the the the idea was to help him with what he would call strategic fundraising because they were moving hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid through his business. And they had, as he described it, blitzkrieg fatigue in those early days, and it was just all on for you know giving support to Ukraine, trying to take in as many refugees as they could, and the polls did incredibly well. But the inevitable happened when I was there. Um, I got a call from an Aussie team actually that said, look, we down a driver, he's ill. Would you come and drive a van? And to cut a long story short, Chris, um we we went in. My memory is we went in for about four weeks, it may have been slightly longer. Uh, Warsaw to Kyiv, um Kyiv across to Dnipro, and then across to Harki, which was really gnarly in those days. It was still under artillery fire, let alone anything else. That's how close the front was way back then. Um, down through Zaporizhia, which was very dicey, um, across to Odessa, which was actually quite benign in those days, and then into Mikalayav, which was still under artillery fire, uh, and then circuitously back to Warsaw. In that time, I just the volume of humanitarian need, um, I just had this as a consequence of seeing it, I just had this burning desire to start a New Zealand-flagged operation, and the rest is history, and that is exactly what happened. Kiwi Care was formed within about a week, and Kiwi Care is an acronym, as you know, for the with a K, standing for Kiwi Aid and Refugee Evacuation. Um, and we've just been going uh really full on ever since, with some very significant uh changes to our organizational structure across that period of time that I'm I'm happy to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Wow, that's that's amazing. So you were I mean, you're kind of at a a stage in your career where you're probably you know retired or looking at a you know nice retirement and Yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I'm way too old for this nonsense, I can assure you, but here I am anyway.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

And you're sitting in in in New Zealand, you know, uh halfway across the world from Ukraine, and you just thought, I've got to get involved. And and then you you got involved, essentially. You went over there and because you before that, you I guess how much experience with humanitarian work did you have?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Only on the other side, only in uniform having to deal with humanitarian aid workers who used to annoy me hugely on operations. Um, I you know appreciated what they tried to do, but sometimes they just got in the way.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah.

Flip To Medical Impact And Partnerships

SPEAKER_00 14:00

And um so I and I've had that hat on of not getting in the way and wanting to do effective, impactful humanitarian work without, you know, being a burden to anybody, without doing anything, you know, without trying to pawn stuff off onto people that they don't need. And there was a lot of that in the early days, the rubbish that came into Ukraine, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, it just became a dumping ground for people's the stuff that people didn't want, including, you know, you can imagine it, tons and tons of COVID masks, silly things like that. And so as a consequence of that knowledge previously, um, you know, KiwiKi was formed with um with one real purpose in mind, and that is to deliver impactful humanitarian aid and and support, and doing so in partnership with Ukrainians. And that's the that's the you know, as opposed to you know arriving and just starting to do stuff and taking over, as many uh I've discovered, many, many of the other nationalities tend to do, um, and you know, having a we know best attitude because we don't know best. We don't really know what they want, and it took a while to sift and sort. And we we we do know now, and I flipped Kiwi care was probably in the beginning 80% humanitarian, 20% medical. It's now the opposite, and has been for three, well, two years now for sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

So let me just explain that because I guess you know Kiwi Care, as you said, the the K stands for was it Kiwi Aided uh Kiwi Aid and Refugee Refugee. It's it's it's essentially from what I was reading, is you you do a lot of well A, getting ambulances into the country first. Yeah. And then using them.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So can I just say quickly, ambulances are a means to an end? Okay. They're not the end of the end. So yes, I bring them in and I brought them in from New Zealand and Australia and will continue to do so. The end is um what we call Road of Life, which is one of our three humanitarian work streams. And we've done over 4,500 evacuations and patient transfers with our own ambulances called Road of Life with a brand. Uh and the others we give to frontline medical units because they they need them. They've um uh and frontline hospitals, I should say, when I say medical units, with whom we've now got very close relationships with. Um the hospitals in Ukraine are run by a director and a head nurse, and it's the head nurse that, in my experience, um, pulls all the levers and she tells you what she wants, she tells you when she wants it, and you better deliver.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah.

Three Workstreams: Evacs, Heat, Medical

SPEAKER_00 16:31

And and I love that. I love that about them. So, you know, they're under literally under siege. And so the the flipping from humanitarian to med was around, you know, we just need tons of medical aid, and we need to be feeding these hospitals in a way that they would never have conceived they needed, and in a way that um, you know, some of the aid agencies don't truly recognize, you know, they tend to get what they and this is from a military term, the difference between logistics pull and logistics push. And a lot of the aid agencies push. We we do a pull system, we ask what they want, and then we go and get it, and then we give it to them, as opposed to saying, look, we happen to have this week, you know, a special on what is baked, baked beans. Yeah, you know, we don't do that stuff, and um and so it's been very effective. And so we, you know, we drown in letters of request as a consequence of the uh humanitarian impact that we've made. I've got requests for um well, look, can I tell you about the other two work streams, which might help? Road of life is uh patient transfers and evacuations. Uh we've got a thing called Heat for Health, a concept where we've we've taken, it's it's fundamentally a recycling project. We've taken old electrical water cylinders, as we would call them in our countries, uh that are no longer functional. And we've got a small team of uh fabricators in Kiev in a small workshop. They strip these things down and they rebuild them into stoves and water boilers. Wow. We've done over we've produced over 5,000 of those. And of course, with the continued attacks on water and power infrastructure, and this year is just off the scale, by the way, uh, it's phenomenal. Uh, we are constantly being asked for these very lightweight, easily movable, cheap, somewhat agricultural looking, I have to say, um, stoves water boilers, uh, because they can be fed anything, ideally wood, you know, but if you haven't got access to wood, you can put rubbish of any sort, light it up, and you've got a source of heat and a source of cooking. And there's two unit, double units together where the water tank, say a 150-200-liter tank, sits on top of the bottom tank, which is fundamentally the fire, if you will, or the heating source, with a tap on them, and then you've got access to hot water. In some cases, this is all these families have had for all winter. And so, you know, these areas are pretty brutal. Uh, and this this is a front line of over, you know, 1200 kilometres. And we learned very quickly, when I say we, I mean me, that you can't be all things to all people as much as you want to, and uh and you don't help anyone. And this comes back to you know, putting your own oxygen mask on before you try and help anybody else. And there was a point where I had to stop and say, what are we going to do here? Because we can't continue to run at this pace and you know, probably let everybody down, uh, as opposed to making an effective and impactful uh humanitarian impact. And so as a consequence of that, we have these three work streams: Road of Life, Evax hospital transfers, um, heat for health, this fabrication of heat uh of uh stoves and water boilers, and then general medical aid. And that does come in the form of bringing ambulances in and giving them away to bona fide hospitals and medical units, and sourcing tons and tons of medical aid from in and around the local region, so we don't incur um uh you know big logistics costs with having to fly stuff in in containers from New Zealand or Australia, which I have done, but I but I won't do anymore because I can get it all here and mostly for free.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Mostly crazy.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, so basically kiwi care does yeah, like you say, three things. You you provide medical evac assistance for anyone, which basically means your ambulances and your drivers will find people either in hospitals and either move to in hospitals or from their homes to the hospital, and then you'll be providing actually aid and supplies to the medical caretakers as well. And then these heaters, you're just you know distributing these great little heaters all around wherever they're needed. Wow. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

And if you look at the if if your listeners look at the Kiwi Kiwi website or my Facebook page, whatever, you'll see these. And some will laugh and say, Oh my goodness, these things are terrible. They're very agricultural looking things. But we can we can whack them up for 200 Kiwi dollars. Yeah, you know, and and and get and distribute them, by the way. So, you know, we this is um this is a really effec cost-effective way of delivering a life-saving capability.

The Vovchansk Stranding Story

SPEAKER_01 20:51

So on this show, we always like guests to come on and really give us a sense of what a particular story, what it's like behind the scenes. Tell us, you know, uh is there an event or an experience or something from what you've described that really take kind of gives us a picture of what one of these missions looks like?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Well, look, I I can. I mean, it's everything's changed and evolved. Uh there are so many stories. Um, you know, we've had some big frights um as well, because we've operated, you know, close right up front to a degree. You know, in the older days, before Bakhmut fell, we we used to work there. Uh, we delivered um humanitarian and mostly medical aid to the children's hospital there on a number of occasions. Um but I guess the the the one story and apropos our past conversation that I that I can reflect on, that's still very clear really, is we were in Vachansk and and at one stage in Vachansk, about a thousand metres, so one kilometer from the Russian border. Vachansk, like Bakhmut, has now fallen. And um, we were there in October 2022, and um we were doing the whole range of things. We were taking medical and humanitarian aid, and probably curious to some of your listeners, also helping out with the transportation of animals. We don't do that anymore, but the Ukrainians like Kiwis and Aussies love their animals. We're dog nuts and cat nuts, and you know, we love we just love them so much. They're part of the family.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

It's not not just pets, it's is it bet pets or livestock or are all animals? Pets.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Mostly because the when pets, when the um initial withdrawal happened in May, uh sorry, in February 2022, people had to go so quickly, they left their dogs and cats behind, their fur babies, you know?

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Uh yeah, you can imagine it. It's tragic. And we I still get messages today asking if I'm gonna be in a certain area, can I look for this dog when I get a photo of a dog? Oh my god. I mean it's heartbreak.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I mean, just for people that that may obviously aware of the Ukraine war, but a place like Bakhmut, for example, I know it's a little, I don't know how far away Vurchansk is from it, but just as context, I think it was like 70,000 people lived there sort of before the war, and then after the huge, you know, because it's a huge battleground between the the two forces, and I think it dropped to like 500 people. So many people either were killed or evacuated.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Absolutely. I I think it might be more than 70,000 because it had universities and it was a university city and what have you. But I don't really know that. Yeah. But yes, it was a major city, uh, of course, and of course, around Bakmoot with assault mines, Solidar, and what have you, and a key place uh industrial region of that wider Donetsk-Donbass area as it's called. So yeah, so it's tragic. The whole thing is tragic.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

So you and your team had kind of gone. This is literally the front lines, literally, you know, border.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, well, Vachansk, yeah, Vachansk was pretty sketchy in those days, and as I say, it's now fallen completely and mostly destroyed by from the photos that I've seen anyway.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Wow.

Aftermath And Shift To Ukrainian NGOs

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Um, I was with an international team, and I, you know, again, I've I've you'll see I've got some filming there in Bochansk about what we're doing and what have you. But on the way back, I was still quite heavy in the van because I had some rescue equipment and what have you. And the road was so bad, I mean, almost unpassable. And instead of being at five kilometres an hour or ten kilometres and dodging potholes the size of you know sort small craters, um, the team decided to go off road, and there were these formed roads on the dirt track, but I was too heavy for it. And I said to them, Look, I'm struggling with this, and I need to get up back onto this track, this road, such that it was. Just as I was thinking that, the van got really stuck, and unfortunately, I I wasn't quick enough to try and reverse out of it. We had radios and I was saying to them, Look, I'm stuck, can you come back and tow me out? No, son, we'd be back in a minute, back in a minute. And the radio started crackling and the voices started fading, and then they were gone. And I knew they were coming back.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

But they couldn't find it. But why why wouldn't they come back? Just because they were like, We've got to go, kind of thing.

Stoicism, Support, And Politics

SPEAKER_00 24:53

They were really scared. It was um a bit well, it was very sketchy, to say the least, to be honest. And I had two very elderly people sitting up front with me, neither of whom could speak a word of English. And you know, trying to explain to them, and I couldn't get a signal, so I couldn't really use, you know, some of the apps that we might have today. Anyway, um the day tuned tonight, and uh it was a very, very black night. There's there's photos of this van that we call Black Betty, who was this particular one. Uh, I've got them on Facebook, but um, it was a dark, heavy night, and in the near distance there were big orange flashes, and you could hear bangs, and you know. And then um I thought, goodness me, what am I going to do here? Because we're in the middle of nowhere. These two people are too old to leave and tab out anywhere. There was something of a bush line about I could see previously had seen about maybe three, four kilometres away. And I did wonder about less at least going and getting into the bushes. Um, and I said to them, look, through holding up a toilet roll, you probably want to go to the toilet. And then they dutifully took it and disappeared into the darkness, came back and then sat stoically in the van, looking straight through the front windscreen without saying a word to me, because they couldn't, or each other. It was extraordinary. And then out of the distance came these dull lights looming, and I thought, okay, this is gonna be either a huge relief or a major problem. And it was a line call as to whether they were Russia or Ukrainian coming, but it was an incredible Ukrainian team who were aghast that we were there, couldn't believe it actually. Um, towed, put a turret on the back of Black Betty, uh, towed us backwards, and as a consequence of that, the whole front of the van, this is a VW crafter, was ripped off. And there's photos of that on um and so we threw the front, they then they had to get out and literally cut the remains because it was hanging by plastic, if you can imagine it. They cut that off. Uh, we threw that in the back and they towed me back onto the road and then escorted me probably about 10 K's because they were very worried. And they knew they were talking to the elderly couple who had explained we were coming from Vochansk. And long story short, after lots of negotiations getting back to Kharkiv at about 3.30 that morning, when curfew, by the way, I think if my memory serves me, in 2022 was eight o'clock at night, so we are way out of bounds. Block post after block post trying to explain to the soldiers and the police why on earth a New Zealander with two elderly Ukrainians is out in the wee hours when I should be tucked up in bed. Yeah, so that that was the beginning of really my change of attitude to working with international teams.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

And as we have talked previously, we now work with these incredible Ukrainian NGOs, professional, our planning processes are good, our safety protocols are good, and we have great mission effect, which is to say humanitarian impact.

Mines, Movement, And Risk Discipline

SPEAKER_01 27:44

That is absolutely crazy. I mean, you basically so you guys had you're you're doing what KiwiKe does, which is you know one of your uh your pillars um is to go out there and do evacuations. So you guys had gone literally into the frontline areas, you're a kilometer from the Russian border, and you were helping, you know, you know, using your vehicles to get people, to get pets and animals out of the danger zone because there was a risk of essentially the Russian Russian forces coming through that area. Um and and and what what would happen and you said that that light coming towards you down the road at night. I mean, uh it must even go into your mind if that is a Russian vehicle with Russian forces in it, w what would have what would have likely happened to you and your passengers.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Well, we would have been taken prisoner. Um what would have happened next? You know, there's horrific stories about, you know, people, including volunteers, who have been taken prisoner and accused of being spies and all sorts of, you know, all sorts of stuff that goes on once you end up in the hands of the Russians. But it's uh it's a brutal um it's a one-way, it's a one-way ticket, really.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Oh my god, that is unbelievable. So the other parts of your team were, as you say, the international uh they're part of your team, and they they were just they're like, this is it's not yeah, we had to leave you behind.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Well they had gone. Um and and that, as I said, was the beginning of my realization that there was no there's no no good will come from this.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Did you did you catch up with them later and have words with them?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Uh we had a quick word, uh not very much, to be honest. There wasn't very much to say. They were very sheepish. Um, but I was I had by then I had decided. And I yeah, we had one more big mission in Bakhmut, uh, and then I was um I was home after that. Yeah. So and that was a that was a very, you know, um uh tricky operation itself getting into Bakhmut in those days. This is now late, I think, November or mid-November 2022. Um and then when I went home in after that for about six months or so to do fundraising speech speeches and what have you, mostly around New Zealand, um, I had then decided that we need to partner with bona fide Ukrainian NGOs and have much better planning processes.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

And and that stoicism of of The couple that you were, you know, you evacuated out of there. Like, is that something that is really sort of like, you know, symbolic or or sort of uniform across a lot of the Ukrainians that you've dealt with in that region?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

It is, Chris, actually. Um, the stoicism, the resilience, the strength of the Ukrainian people is something the world can can look at in awe in the circumstances of what they've had to deal with. You know, they've been outgunned, they've been outnumbered in every regard. And while they have had good support, particularly from Europe and previously from the the U the US, um, you know, they don't have that US support today. And as we're talking here right now, we know that Trump has, not unexpectedly, done a complete flip-flop on the Tomahawks. Yeah. And more than that is after the call with Putin, uh saying that maybe Ukraine should just give up the ghost now, literally, and give away all of the Donbass, which is one of the ceasefire requirements that Russia have got, uh, which is just an inconceivable outcome given what they've been through these past nearly four years.

Drones Versus Armour: Tactics Rewritten

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yes, us us sitting here in October 2025, you know, as it were, and we're still years, years into the conflict. I mean, an experience like that that you've had, like as you said, it could have gone really badly. And doing missions nowadays, does does that experience still come up in your head, or is it just it's just par for the course?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah, from a planning point of view, it does now. Of course, the dynamics are very different. There were not uh the amount of drones by any any uh measure back then. So the planning processes are now around drone proliferation and what we can do to defend or at least identify against that. Uh, but also, yes, um, you know, we use much better um planning processes. We work with the military a lot more closely in terms of the what is happening, the situational awareness in and around the area. And there have been a number of occasions when we've been going to a point to either do evacuations or deliver medical aid, and the military of course and said, don't come. It's just too hot. And so we and we don't. We don't, you know, we're not configured in any respect for that. None of us are pretending to be soldiers, even though some of us might have had a background previously. Uh, but no no one's pretending to be anything other than what we are.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I I'd love to ask you, because these regions that you guys have operated in, whether you can go there or not at the moment, but they are littered, literally littered with mines. And and I'm just curious, the way that you deal with the Russian uh you go to a particular region, you deal with the Russian forces and the military, and and do you uh because I know that from experience doing a project recently about mine action and stuff and the situation in Ukraine. It's very hard to know where minefields are. And are you cognizant of that when you're you know trudging through a a demolished uh village trying to look for pets and people to rescue?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah. Yeah, very. So we we don't go off-road for that reason, particularly, although we were in the Vachansk um story that I've just told, very much off-road. Uh, but no, we we tend to um stay on the beaten track, that that which is very warm and very worn previously. Um and so yeah, we're not yeah, we we're very cautious of mines. It's yeah, probably one of the most mined areas in the world today. Yeah, and you know, the problem with mines, of course, as the winter comes, and particularly if they're in muddy areas, if there is ground movement, the mines move too. So even if they are marked, and I very much doubt that despite the conventions which require that they should be marked, I very much doubt they are, they would have moved anyway in some cases. I mean, you Ukraine is basically as flat as a pancake. So you know, it's where mines are put on slopes and those slopes subside a bit. That's where the real danger is. But yes, look, there's um incredible people, including New Zealanders and Australians, here doing big D-mining projects, and that will last for years to come.

Humanitarians As Targets And Protection

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Yeah, it is it is a travesty. I mean, I know the Russians literally fly over Ukraine and drop these little uh they butterfly mines that are sort of small charges. They're not that everyone's probably imagining a circular, you know, sort of cylindrical kind of thing, but these butterfly mines are designed like you know, maple leaves or something, and they just flutter down to the ground and they're green and you just can't see them.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, all sorts though, Chris, not just those, but yes, many different types. Um Yeah, and again, you worry about animals and children and and uh when the war ends, people running through the bush as they love to do the Ukrainians, they're a very outdoorsy folk. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Oh my god, that's absolutely crazy that what you guys are doing over there. And um I'm just glad I mean I I I guess as a final question on that, you know, uh I'd love to know the when you're when you bring up when you've rescued a dog or a cat or something like that, and you've brought it back to the owner, uh, wherever they might be, what what are the sort of faces like when they when they're reunited with a loved person?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Well, look, sadly, we very rarely brought one back to owners. Oh, really? Uh we've normally taken them back to rescue centers, yeah. Which um, you know, they do their best, but they can be, you know, pretty awful. Uh two occasions we have found owners for sure. I mean, this is not core business. This is very much an adjunct to what we do. Um, but yeah, we, you know, there are photos of me on Facebook with dogs in the cab of our vehicles where we've just, you know, and I still carry a 2020 kg bag of dog food around because they they have now packed up in the in the gas stations, which for those that know Ukraine will know that the gas stations are huge and they've got incredible cafes or restaurants as uh attached to them. And so the dogs all hang around there, and we do our best to feed them as you know as much as you can. If you're an animal lover like I am, I'm just hopeless with dogs. Um if I you know if I had to scrunch a dog once or twice a day, might I'm pretty happy actually. Uh and so we do feed them. So I do carry a big bag of dog food around with me. That's fantastic. I mean it sounds like the college idiot, I know, but no, I do things you do under these circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

I mean, what uh being someone on the ground and with a company or with a with an organization or a you know uh a unit that is working more efficiently, what what is the solution?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, uh I think let's let's take it away from eight agencies and put it into a military context. Um doing the things that we've always done uh in a military context, in r in light of what has happened in the Ukraine war would be very foolhardy and in many cases suicidal. And the Russians are most ex you know, they're absolutely experiencing that. You know, full frontal assaults, um you can't make what you know, this if people are unaware, I ask you to ask your listeners to to Google this and try and find, you know, bona fide sources of information, but full frontal assaults on trail bikes, um, just to try and cover the ground quickly, and so as a consequence, under the tree lines where the Ukrainians have got defensive positions, and just ahead of that, there's trailbikes everywhere, and dead Russians, of course.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

So you've got you've got Russian soldiers on dirt bikes charging the front Ukrainian front lines.

Budget Tradeoffs: Aid Or Protection

Surviving Drone Strikes On Ambulances

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, I mean you honestly you cannot make this stuff up. It's just quite extraordinary. So uh and and then all the frontline guys would talk about the things they've seen are just quite extraordinary, you know, full frontal assaults with Russian troops over sitting, uh, you know, sitting on the on the armored vehicles on top. I mean, you you never do that. Never ever do that. I mean you dismount and the armored vehicles give you fire support and all of it. The tactics are uh quite quite extraordinary. But more than that, what what we've seen with drones is is a is a very, very different type of warfare. It's a it's a it's a thing that we aren't used to at all. There is nowhere to hide under any circumstances. Um that the you know that the drones can go up in in in you know um swarms and and and do, by the way. Uh, and you can have FBPV drones, um observation drones, all interconnected and all working, you know, and nowadays with AI coming on along, um there's just the speed of the the speed within the battlefield, the speed of observation, of decision making, target acquisition and targeting is so fast that you know it's impossible to keep up with. And we're seeing a$450 drone taking out a$45 million tank. So, you know, and um even if it doesn't take it out in one hit, it could disable it. So it's it's immobile, and then two or three others come and that's the end of the tank. So everything has changed, Chris. If I then bring that into the humanitarian world that we are living in, everything's changed for us as well. Humanitarian aid workers are not protected in any regard. Putting a red cross, or in our case, a yellow cross, or riding on the roofs of something. We are humanitarian aid workers, all it that's just a target. And um, you know, so what does it mean? I I guess I've got empathy for the big aid agencies who have have stalled, many have stalled, by the way. Um, they will argue if they're hearing this, they haven't stalled at all. Uh, but all I'm saying is that prove to me you haven't because I know where we are and you're not there. That's that's all I say. But we still we're still going through a reconfiguration of what to do exactly uh to manage the the process. And part of this is having a good electronic warfare capability, which is anti-drone, things called rebs, for example. The other part of it that I'm I I think we're gonna have to look at if we can find a way is we need hardened vehicles. We we could never afford to to acquire or run armor, and I'm talking about armored ambulances now. We can you know, like a any in the old days, for the older listeners, the M113 class of vehicle, the APC, had an armored ambulance uh variant. Um while that would be amazing, we couldn't afford to run it, not for a second. Um, the hardened vehicles we are looking at, and and which is to say that they've got you know plates uh all around them. Uh we'd need a good roof plate, we'd need very, very good um, you know, to use an old term bulletproof glass, but it but a ballistic glass capability, and and something under under the the the the you know, even under the um the body of the car, um so because drones could get under. I'm not worried about um running over mines for us, Sarge, but drones can get under cars and and explode from underneath. And of course, things like run-flat tires, all these things take um uh an massive amount of money, which is then being redirected into self-protection, yeah, which is going to become very necessary, as opposed to looking after those who are most vulnerable. And it's a very tricky situation.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

If I had to ask you how much you know, let's say hypothetically you get given a million dollars, how much of that money is spent on protecting the humanitarian aid and how much is actually spent on providing it?

Why Keep Going And World Order

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Well, that's very good question. So if normally, if you'd asked me a year ago or less, I would have said I will turn that$1 million into$8 million of humanitarian impact somehow. Um, and and we we we've got this, we can measure this really accurately today. You know, through the three work streams, we know exactly how many people we will save, the quality of life here is that we will give to them, which is a bona fide way of measuring humanitarian impact. Um, how we reduce the stress on the health system because people aren't either getting sick or they're not getting injured, or, you know, as a consequence of what we're doing. And, you know, reducing stress on the health system, it has a huge financial impact. If people aren't, because they've got warmth, because they've got access to hot water, uh, and because they can cook a decent meal, means they're not presenting at hospital, means that those that are in hospital are those that really need to be there. And so, and so it goes. So we we know exactly how to measure this. Um the the question though, and it's a very good question, uh, is what are we going to now spend on? I would think we would we would have to allocate 20% of that today, that one million dollars, you know, because um I and I'm talking of about you know electronic warfare, sorry, let's say 10% for now, because if I if I jumped into my mind around um having hardened vehicles, it would be a lot more than that. But it would be certainly 10% of that one million to put some sort of um rebs in our all our ambulances, so at least the the guys can identify if there's a drone in the air. I have to say, and those that have a really good understanding about this um might argue, but it does remind me a little bit about in our countries buying a radar detector, you know, when the cops so you can get ahead of the cops, so you're speeding and your radar detector goes off, you slam your foot on the brakes and you don't get a ticket. And then the cops get something better, and then you've got to get something better. And so you're in this constant cycle, right, of of a technological game with the New Zealand and Australian traffic police, which I've never done personally, but I'm just using it as an example. And I've said to people that really know this guy, I said, Are we in this cycle? They said, quite possibly we are. I said, Well, we can't afford to play this game, man. You know, we we need something which is going to give us the best bang for buck, so we can put all the rest of the bucks into humanitarian aid. Um, and so we're still very undecided as to what to do. But but if I if if we do go down the hardened vehicle um route for uh for ambulances and what have you, that's a very expensive game to play.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

So you've got teams out there right now that are driving ambulances and driving vehicles, moving aid around the country into the front lines, you know, the very front lines of things. And they are literally targets for drones.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Absolutely. We've lost us, we've lost two ambulances. They do wear helmets and we've got very good, you know, personal protection, body armor and what have you. The only reason the driver is alive is that the Russian drone operator considered it naturally to be a left-hand drive vehicle. He was in an Aussie, he was in an Aussie ambulance. Wow. So that and I've got footage of the drone. Curiously, we were given, we've discovered that they were playing it on various um telegram channels. And I've now seen that drone come in, uh, come from the rear, high rear of the ambulance, come down and do a hard right-hand turn to try and hit the left-hand side of the vehicle, which it did. And um the driver, thankfully, was sitting on the right hand side.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

That is extraordinary. That is absolutely extraordinary. So they were targeting the driver, but just by sheer luck.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Absolutely, to kill the driver. And the other one was it was an attack on the back of the ambulance to kill who was ever in the back. And you know, you'd assume it was a patient and a maybe a nurse and possibly a doctor. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

So so you've got you've got people literally risking their you and your colleagues are risking your lives. You know, that's not even another thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I mean, I've got a good answer to if you you're going to ask why, and I don't have a very good answer for this.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Um I I mean why, but also again, it's kind of around about what you know, what does it take to do this kind of work?

Advice For Aspiring Humanitarians

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Well, look, uh you know, fundamentally back to where it started. Uh I I did uh uh an interview on Radio New Zealand when they said why. This is back in you know March, April 2022. And I said, because hand on heart, I believe then, and this has absolutely been borne out to be true, that this is the war that's going to change world order in the sense that we are going to see alliances that are unusual. Um, and we've we've seen that. We've now seen all these alliances, North Korea and Russia, North Koreans over here fighting and what have you. Um, and we're going to see a very different world as a consequence of this war. This is a this is a war that will have a huge impact on the rest of the world, not just Ukraine and Russia, and and not just Europe, uh, but but everywhere. We've certainly seen that. I'd go as far as to say it's been um augmented by Trump 2.0, but pushing that aside, it was going to happen anyway. Um, you know, and we we are seeing this change of world order. We are seeing countries, European countries, particularly spending, you know, if you'd said to them three, four years ago, you'll be spending something like 5% of GDP on defense, they would have laughed. And that's what exactly what they're doing. You know, Spain is resisting, and for good reason, by the way, um they've got some other issues that they need to contend with, and others are getting there. Poland have gone all out, though they may be above 5%. Germany are probably going to get back up there again. And so, you know, here we are in a very different changed environment. We are committed, donkey deep now, and we can't stop. I mean, there are times when I do wonder what the hell I'm doing and doing here, but I know that from the lives we've saved, and they're thousands now, the impact that we're making, and I and I know that the Ukrainian NGOs that we support, and we do support them financially, couldn't they stop if if Kiwiki has stopped, they'd stop. And so I have got to keep going, and we will go to the bitter end.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

You feel the real weight of responsibility now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

I do now. Yeah. Yeah. It must be extraordinary. A huge responsibility for having started something when and we're we're one of the few that are left. If you talk to the volunteer organizations, the vast majority have gone. And and for good reasons, some they just run out of money, you know. And and others have had to go and get jobs, and and this is these are bona fide real reasons, you know. Uh, but I do, given what we've created, feel a huge responsibility to continue supporting our Ukrainian NGOs. And and also giving them, you know, my experience because things have changed, and I don't want anybody to get killed. No one has yet. That's weak for Kiwi Care. We've had a very serious injury, of course. Um and we will do our best to keep people alive while they're doing this incredible work. Amazing.

Funding Needs And How To Help

SPEAKER_01 47:35

And just wrapping things up, I mean, uh as as this this show is kind of about extraordinary careers and those experiences that come along with it. And humanitarianism is an odd one because it's not a career as such. It it's a it's a calling, or you know, people get called to it. You don't make money. Let's say a lot of these people are volunteers, they're all volunteers, you know. And I always like at the end for people like yourselves to offer advice for anyone who wants to follow in your footsteps. I mean, for anyone listening, that has kind of always been like, I really feel like I want to do something, whether it's in Ukraine or it could be a crisis in their own countries. Have you got any words for advice of people that want to sort of take up humanitarianism?

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Sure. Um, I think you've got to do it for the right reasons, and you've got to do it for the people that are in the areas that you're going to operate as opposed for you to um to you know to get something out of it. Uh, you will, it is very rewarding, it's extremely hard work, uh, as I've discovered. I mean, you know, there's I've aged. I'm not I'm not young anyway. Anyway, you're 30, yeah. But it's I've certainly aged. Um and you know, it's really about I keep using this term humanitarian impact. But what is the biggest impact you can make for, you know, bang for buck to use a silly term, where you're really producing something which is of huge value and will save lives for um for those, and and it's about, you know, for those people who are most vulnerable, but it's about working in the right environment where you've got good strategic thinkers, uh, people that have got a great knowledge and capability of the of the area in which you're going to work, partnerships with the locals is a critical part of it, absolutely critical. Uh, and developing relationships as far and as wide as you possibly can. And so I will say that you you know, we we must all of us look after our own mental health as as best we can. And and part of that is is I think getting up and making a really big contribution, if I can go as far as to say that. And by that I mean, you know, there's nothing worse than than sitting back thinking I should be doing this, but I can't for you know, making that big contribution and then making sure that you look after yourself and try and get some downtime as much as possible. I mean the problem with this environment, Chris, even in Kiev, as you know, is that if you do withdraw to Kiev, you still get smacked with monotonous regularity with with uh char head drones and and ballistic missiles. And so, you know, it's not exactly a restful environment.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

I can imagine, I can imagine. But you're doing good, you know, you're making an impact on people's lives, which you know is is is moving the needle, as they say, you know, in the right way.

Closing, Links, And Next Week’s Tease

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Well, thank you, Chris. And can I can I just say to your listeners um uh from all over the world, but I just want to thank the Kiwis and the Aussies, just the most incredible support. The Americans have been amazing, so have Canadians and many European nations. And you know, we the lifeblood of what we do is is funds, I have to say, we don't need containers of old clothes again, please. But we do need funds, and um, you know, and we will we will continue to deliver on that one to eight ratio or more if we can, you know. If if um if that if that changes, I'll be disappointed. But if it does change, it'll be because of protective, a protective element that we're spending money on and not because we're staying in six-star hotels.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

I mean, fantastic. I mean, just just uh on that note, I mean, where can people find out more about Kiwi Care and all the work that you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Sure. Um, thank you. Well, we have a website, it's KiwiCareUkraine.co.nz, or for the Americans, NZ. Uh Facebook. Um, we've got a uh in New Zealand, um there's a crowdsourcing, wonderful crowdsourcing um entity called Give a Little. Give a Little. And uh we've got a page on Give a Little that's getting close to um$800,000, which has been incredible. Wow. It's one aspect of our of our fundraising, you know, yeah, uh that we do. Um not the main, by the way, but it's incredible, but it's very visual, and some people like to make a note on it and say something about Ukraine and give support to Ukraine. And that's been great. So give a little is the probably the easiest in New Zealand thing to go, and it's Kiwi Care on GiveA Little.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Great. And anyone in the world can go there as well, Americans and absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

For sure. Or direct to our donate button on our website.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Fantastic. Lovely. Tembi, listen, thank you so much for all the work that you do uh in Ukraine. And um I I wish you guys all the best and uh hope your team stays safe. And um, as I said, I hope everything becomes to peaceful resolution soon.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Thank you very much, Chris, and I really appreciate the uh opportunity to talk to you and I wish you all the best with your wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

All right, thanks, mate.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

See you soon. Thanks, buddy. Go well, take care. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

And that is a wrap on this week's episode. A huge thanks again to Tenbi for sharing he and his team's remarkable work uh in Ukraine. And a big thanks to you all as well for listening and watching. If you'd like to learn more about Tenbi's work, uh how to support KiwiCare, or follow the team's updates in Ukraine, you can visit their website, uh, KiwiCareUkraine.co.nz. That's care with a K. Or you can find all the links in the show notes below and over on our website, noOrdinarymonday.com. And as always, you can find extra clips, visuals, and behind-the-scenes bits from this episode across our socials, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and of course the No Ordinary Monday community group on Facebook, where you can jump into the conversation, um, ask questions, share ideas, and just generally be part of the NOM crew. Okay, so this week we don't have any listener work stories, um, but if you have a story you'd like me to feature on the show, head over to the website and click the listener story page, or you can just email me, hello h-e-l-l-o at no ordinary monday.com. Alrighty, so where are we going next week? We are going to dive into the psychological trenches with former Secret Service agent Brad Bieler. From presidential protection to high-stakes interrogations, Brad has spent his career hunting deception, leading major criminal investigations, exposing fraud, and running a record-breaking number of polygraph tests. He reveals what really happens behind closed doors when the mission is simple: find the truth. Brad even uses his interrogation skills on me in a game of two truths and a lie. So tune in next week to find out if he catches me out. If today's episode made your Monday just a little bit better, uh click five stars and share the show with someone who would love it. It seems small, but it makes all the difference. It really helps us grow and reach new listeners and keep bringing the most extraordinary guests that we can find. This show is independently produced, hosted, and edited by me, Chris Barron. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great Monday, everyone, and we will see you next week.