No Ordinary Monday
The No Ordinary Monday podcast brings you the most incredible tales from people's working lives. Each week, we meet someone whose work is anything but ordinary - they may be clearing landmines, blowing up movie sets, or exploring uncharted caves.
We dive into the how, the why, and a life-defining moment they’ve experienced on the job. Whether it’s spine-tingling, hilarious, or just plain jaw-dropping, their stories will challenge what you thought a “career” could be—and maybe even change the way you think about your own.
No Ordinary Monday
A Bush Pilot’s Worst Flight Over Papua
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Bush Flying in Indonesia: From IT Desk to Remote Mountain Airstrips
A tidy flat, a good salary, a steady routine — and a growing knot of anxiety. That was Matt Dearden’s life before he walked away from IT and flew halfway across the world to become a bush pilot in Indonesia.
In this episode of No Ordinary Monday, Matt takes us inside the reality of remote aviation, flying for Susi Air across one of the most challenging aviation environments on Earth. What followed was a crash course in flying beyond the textbook: single-engine turbine aircraft, dirt airstrips carved into mountain slopes, jungle valleys that shift from clear skies to dense cloud in minutes, and communities where aviation is the difference between isolation and survival.
Flying the Pilatus Porter on the Frontier
We explore the aircraft that makes this work possible — the Pilatus PC-6 Porter — a rugged STOL plane designed for short, steep, and unpredictable runways. Matt explains how “pioneering routes” connect remote villages across Indonesia’s 17,000 islands, why cargo can range from medical supplies to fuel drums to live pigs, and how pilots manage risk when terrain, weather, and human decision-making collide.
He’s candid about aviation accidents — how they rarely have a single cause, but form chains of small decisions — and the mindset required to keep flying with humility, discipline, and focus in high-risk environments.
Alone in Cloud, Low on Options
Then the story tightens.
Mid-afternoon, alone in cloud, flying on oxygen with fuel drums banging behind him, Matt is hit with sudden nausea. The horizon spins. There’s no autopilot. No outside visual reference. Just instruments, terrain warnings, and willpower.
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Episode Links:
Matt's Website - https://mattdearden.co.uk/
Matt's Book - https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Shangri-really-Worst-Place-ebook/dp/B0DHWCHSNK
Socials:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattdearden
https://www.instagram.com/indopilot/?hl=en
https://www.facebook.com/IndoPilot/
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I couldn't work out what the hell was going on. I just get hit with a wave of nausea and just vomit. Couldn't even like hold it. It was just so instantaneous. Then everything was spinning. The world was just spinning around. I thought Crikey, I'm being poisoned.
SPEAKER_01:Matt Dearden wasn't on the ground when all of this was happening. He was in a small aircraft, thousands of feet in the sky.
SPEAKER_00:I'm by myself, just with a bunch of fuel drums in the back. And this is in an aircraft that doesn't have an autopilot.
SPEAKER_01:If he passes out and lets go of the controls, there's nothing to save him.
SPEAKER_00:And then I thought, how the hell am I going to land this thing? I was just so weak. I was literally, I could feel the blinks just like getting longer and longer between each one. All my powers were just trying to keep the aircraft flying. Every blink I just thought I'm just that'll be the last one. And the aircraft's just gonna disappear into the jungle.
SPEAKER_01:Hey folks, welcome back to No Ordinary Monday. Hope your week's off to a good start, wherever you're tuning in from. I'm Chris Barron, I'm a documentary filmmaker, and each week I invite a guest onto the show to tell me about the most extraordinary experience that they've ever had on the job. We start with the path that led them there, we find out what the job is really like behind the scenes, and then we reveal the most important lessons they've learned along the way. No major announcements this week, but as always, if there is a job or profession that you'd love me to cover on the show, drop me an email, hello h e l o at no ordinary monday.com. And of course, click to follow the show if you haven't done so already. Alright, so on to today's episode. My guest today is Matt Dearden. Matt is a bush pilot, someone who flies small aircraft into some of the most remote, mountainous, and unforgiving terrain on planet Earth. After leaving a comfortable job in IT, Matt moved halfway around the world to Indonesia, where he flew solar missions across the most remote parts of Papua, landing on dirt airstrips that were literally carved into jungle mountainsides, often with no backup, no second pilot, and no margin for error. Matt provided a whole bunch of amazing videos and photos of his adventure for this episode, so please check out the YouTube version to get the full experience. In this episode, Matt takes us inside one flight in particular when something went very wrong in mid-air. Flying alone with no autopilot over dense jungle, and he was slowly losing control of his body. Stick around to find out what it's really like to be a bush pilot in the wilds of Indonesia. You're listening to No Ordinary Mundane? Let's get into the show. Matt, how are you doing? Welcome to the podcast. How you doing, man?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, really good. Thanks, Chris. Uh thanks for having me on today.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely pleasure. I am super excited uh to sort of have you on because you have, I think, you know, some amazing stories from your job. And I guess the first question is it's kind of a big broad one, but have you ever counted how many near-death or sort of close calls you've had across your career?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, not really. I guess if I did, then yeah, I might not keep doing it sort of thing. So uh it's uh I mean there's probably at least a couple that like really stand out, but um, yeah, where like genuinely thought this might be it. Um but yeah, there's probably definitely been some close ones that I don't know, as you kind of gain experience, probably don't feel as close as they might have actually been. You know what I mean? It's uh it's you know, you sort of just get conditioned to stuff, I suppose, sometimes. So what's to the outside might be like, oh my god, might just be you know a Monday morning for me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Honestly, like it's a it's a crazy career that you've had, and um, you know, a lot more um you know exciting than a lot of other people might anticipate. Um but I think where I want to start is not with the you know the the Bush pilot sort of stuff, but I want to start where you know it was not your first career. You know, you started in a completely different career and almost polar opposite to to what you ended up in. And I wondered, you know, just t talk us through sort of what that career was and sort of what what led you to to sort of leave it eventually.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so where do I begin? Um I guess like as a teenager, I suppose, um, kind of in my early teens, um, and this would have been like the 1990s. Um I was really into computers, you know, it was just something I loved doing. Um dad was quite into tech, I guess, at that point. So we always had a kind of home computer, you know, from like the BBC micros. Um I learned to program in Basic, which was the kind of computer language that these things use. Um and I loved it, at least I write level video games, um, and I just had this real passion for it. Um I actually didn't play that many games. I I did like computer games as well, but I just like coding. Um, it was just something that I was really into. Um and then obviously I went to school. Um, I guess I should start, I grew up in the Middle East. Um, so I grew up in uh like Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, uh, and then Bahrain in the 90s. Um so I went to boarding school back in in England. Um and that affords you quite a lot of opportunities. It's um you know, it's it's quite a privileged upbringing, really. Um and so you know, they had a big computer place, uh, you know, a big computer department, I guess. And um so I continued that kind of uh passion uh and got an A level in computer science um and then went on to university um and uh did a science a computer science degree um and I loved it, you know, um and I carried on with this kind of you know thing and ended up getting a job programming computers uh in Bristol, which uh you know, dream job, you know, 21. Pretty sweet. Um everything's going really well. And um and yeah, you know, as I guess for most people you start a new job, it's exciting, it's interesting, uh you're kind of stimulated, and um and I loved it for quite a few years. Um but then I guess with most things, um, and this I think is common for a lot of people, but especially myself, I find I once I feel I've kind of done something, I'm I'm done with it, and then I kind of want to do something else. Um but uh I guess at that point um life kind of took a bit of a turn, I suppose, because I kind of achieved everything I wanted to do. Um I bought a flat in Bristol, so you know I'm like 24, 25, and everything that I could have wanted to achieve in life had been done. You know, I had a nice job doing Monday to Friday 95, program computers, my dream job, my own apartment, you know, everything looking great. Um but I had this building anxiety um in the background all the time. It would just get worse and worse, and I'd wake up um, you know, really early in the morning just with this churning kind of stomach and just not really focusing on anything. There was no like rhyme or reason for why I was worried, you know, everything was you know sweet. You know, if you looked at my life from the outside, you're like, oh, this guy's got a perfect life, you know. Um, I went out, had a little hog big group of friends, went on holidays, you know, skiing and mountain biking and this kind of stuff. So, you know, it was all pretty much perfect. Um so I didn't make any sense. Um but then I guess this is the point where I I actually sort of decided, you know what? I remember at school, and as I said, I went to sporting school, so we had some nice opportunities, and part of it was this um like Cadet Force. And um I took a couple of flights in an RAF Bulldog, which is a little two-seater training aircraft, which is aerobatic. Um, I was thinking I was like 15 at the time, and I loved it. I was like, this is flipping cool, like this is really cool. Um, but I was still into computers. Uh no, I was actually all right.
SPEAKER_01:Um I think I I would be the first one to throw up in that kind of situation, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I guess like some kids did. Um, but uh I was fine with it, and um I kind of thought this is cool, but um, I wear contact lanterns and uh I kind of thought, you know, I can't join the RAF, they want perfect eyesight. And also, I went to boarding school. The last thing I wanted to do was to be regimented into a military regime, and you know, I wanted to go out partying, you know. So I went to university and and did that basically, um and then continued on that. So the the whole flying thing just sort of sat in the back of my mind, I guess. Um but uh as I say, once I was in IT after a few years, it pays okay. Uh and I thought, you know what, let's just try something new, let's let's try this flying thing. I remember like I enjoyed it as a kid, it was kind of cool. Um just around the corner from my office as uh Philton Airport. Um, fortunately it's now closed these days, but um back then it was still a functioning airport, and um, so I took a flying lesson. I thought, let's see. And uh straight away I was like, yeah, this is damn cool. This was cool when I was a kid and it's really cool now. Um and uh you know I took that trial lesson and I kind of thought about it. Uh and I thought, yeah, I'll go for the private pilot license. Why not? I've got enough money for this, so carried on with it. And um about two lessons in, I kind of thought, what's the deal with like you know, being like an airline pilot? Like, what if I wanted to th you know pursue this whole thing through? So I chatted with the instructors and they kind of described how it how it worked basically. And it's a lot of work. There's kind of two ways. You can either quit your job, uh, spend an awful lot of money, and basically go back to university to do all of the studies, you do it all in one. You you go to classrooms, you do the studies, and then you do the flight training, and in about a year, year and a half, something like that, you get what's called a frozen ATPL airline transport pilot license. Um that then allows you to apply for an airline like EasyJet, Rhino, BA, whatever. Um, but I couldn't afford to do that, I didn't have enough money. Um, and equally, um, I would have to have quit my job, so it wouldn't have worked out. But there's another way, which is called like a modular way. So you can kind of take bits from each of the different sections you need to do and do them whilst keeping your current day job. So that's what I went for. So these studies, these uh airline transport pilot license studies, there's 14 exams you've got to sit, and it's it's the best part of like half a degree, basically, they say, because it's you know it's an awful lot of subjects. There's everything from air law to procedure systems, uh to tech aircraft tech, meteorology, I'm sure is actually meteorology exactly, principles of flight, all this kind of stuff. It's uh it's a huge amount of information, it's um a lot to take in, but you can do it distance learning. So they send you the books, and then you sit there in your spare time and you study, basically. Um, so that's what I did for like a year, uh, as has anybody else who's done this kind of stuff. Um and this kind of like focused my anxiety, I suppose, because it kind of gave me this distraction. Um, and I guess I kind of this is what I'm gonna do. So it kind of knocked it on head for a bit. I had had a little bit of therapy. I had some I went to see my GP before all this and um you know had some CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, which it helped mitigate it and some meditation and stuff, but it never really went away. It was always kind of bubbling away.
SPEAKER_01:But um it was it was basically like a quarter life crisis, you know. A lot of people talk like a midlife crisis where you achieved everything, but you did it by 24-25 when you're like, Yeah, what have I got to look forward to? And I guess that was kind of the root cause, was it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess you could call it a midlife crisis in a way, but yeah, as you say quarter life like a bit earlier on, like um, maybe that's what it was, I don't know. Um no, actually I kind of do know what it was, I'll come back to that. Um but uh yeah, so I kind of did this, and um I found this like the hour or so that I was up there for doing my flying lessons as well was a massive distraction from the anxiety because you know when you're when you're flying an aircraft, and especially when you're learning to fly an aircraft, it's all encompassing. Your mind's not gonna think about anything else. All you're doing is thinking about you know, how do I keep this thing straight and level in a turn or whatever it is you're trying to do. Um, and so the anxiety was gone completely at that point, but it would kind of come back in the background um when I come back on the ground. Um and um the ATPLs, these these studies that I was doing, again, big distraction from that. So it just gave my mind this kind of focus. Anyway, I finished these uh exams after about a year. So I as I say I kept my day job. Um, and this was a year of like, you know, come home from work, study, study, study, have some dinner, study a bit more, go to bed, go to work, study in lunch hour exactly for like a year basically, weekends was just studying all my holidays for that year at work. Um, I had to go and go down to Gatwick and go sit the exams because that takes and you also need to do a bit of classroom too. So my four weeks off were basically two parts of more exams. Um so looking back, it was probably a stupid thing to do because once it was all finished, um the anxiety just completely dominated me. Um it was just small encompassing. I ended up moving back with my mum and dad um because I just couldn't cope with being on my own. Um, and it was just, yeah, it was it was really bad. So went to the GP, you know, they were like trying to just prescribe me with stuff and I said, look, you know, I want to fly airplanes, I don't really want you to give me a bunch of pills because I fear that's gonna be a problem. Um, but obviously at this point I just kind of started on this journey, and so I had to inform the CAA, civil aviation authority in the UK that you know I've been having all these kind of mental health problems. Um, and of course at that point they're polymedical. Um and you kind of think that someone who's have these, you know, who suffers from anxiety, having that happen would be devastating. But it was weirdly the opposite. It was sort of like this weight being lifted off my shoulders that I wasn't kind of hiding from this whole situation now. I wasn't like trying to ignore it. You know, I'd even told the regular everyone knew basically that I had these problems. Um I guess that was sort of the start of getting better, really. And um, I went to go see their psychiatrist, the aviation authority psychiatrist, and we talked about everything. And they said, he said, look, you know, I can see you perfectly safe to fly an aircraft, you know. I don't see you're going to be a harm to yourself or anybody else, you know, you're just going through a bit of a rough patch. Um and so they you know, thankfully they reinstated my medical and uh I carried on with the flight training. Um and this was now coming up. So I finished in 2000 and early 2009, and so this whole period was like 2006 to 2009, basically. Um and you know, 2008-2009, you know, the biggest recession the world's seen basically, well at least in our lifetime.
SPEAKER_01:When I graduated university, yeah, that was a tough time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and so anybody who you know who was trying to get a job at that time, whatever it was, was uh not in a good way. And um, you know, me with 200 hours experience trying to find a job in an airline, forget it. And it's just you know, most you know, numerous airlines were going bust basically. So, you know, me knocking on the door going, Hello, um, do you want to wanna give me a job? No chance. Um, so I thought, wow, this was an expensive waste of money getting a pilot license, which I'm not gonna be able to use. Thankfully, I still had my IT job, so you know, I wasn't like in a on the streets kind of thing. So, you know, I was definitely a lot fortunate, more fortunate than most people. Um, but you know, I was still kind of determined, so I just started flying everywhere. You know, if I got a sniff of an airline or an aeroplane that maybe needed a pilot, I would go and apply. Had to keep a big spreadsheet of everybody to make sure I hadn't double up on things. Um and I found out about this company called Suzy Air, based in a country called Indonesia, which I kind of heard of the comp uh of the country, but hadn't heard of Suzy Air. Um I didn't really know where Indonesia was. I knew it was over in Asia somewhere. Had to go look that up on a map and was like, oh okay, it's quite a long way away. Um and I applied to them and as per usual heard nothing back for many months. Um and then suddenly get a an email sort of saying, Oh yeah, congratul uh we'd like to invite you for an interview um to Munich. I thought, okay, cool, Munich, weird, but okay. Um and generally I thought it went pretty well. I got on really good with the uh with the guy there, and uh I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm in with a shot here. Um and then heard nothing for weeks. Uh and then eventually get an email saying, Yeah, sorry you didn't quite make the cuts, we'll put you in the holding pool kind of thing. And I was like, uh, okay, you know, that thing's a due to results of your tests, basically. Yeah, your uh we'll put you in the holding pool. I thought, oh well, that's the end of that one. Um, and then this would have been middle of October 2009. I get an email um saying, Congratulations, uh, we'd like to offer you a job with Suzie. Um, yeah, this is like 20th of October, I think it was. Um, could you start first of November? So I had 10 days' notice. Yeah, 10 days' notice. So this was on a Sunday, I remember. So I went into the office on Monday morning and uh said to my boss, hey, you know, I've been kind of looking for a flying job, and he's like, Oh yeah, how's that going? I was like, Oh, I've actually got a job. And he's like, Oh, amazing. Like, uh, you know, what is it? When are you gonna start? I was like, Um, well, I'm going to Asia and I kind of start next week. Um, so you know, eight years of uh IT, he was pretty good to me. And he's like, Okay, well, you know, I can't stop you. Um just tidy up what you can and uh best of luck with it. So wow, that was a blur of a week, I remember. Uh sort of trying to pack everything up and rent the flat out and um yeah, basically moving my life into a 20 kg suitcase. And um move on to a country you'd never ever heard of barely and never not. Barely heard of, and yeah, yeah. And wow. And that's kind of what I'm saying. What did your parents think at the time? Were they happy? Were they like I mean, obviously happy, but also my mum terrified. Um it was quite tearful at the uh at Heathra, I remember. I mean, cracky, you know, with boarding school, I've been going in and out of Heathra all my life, basically, and you know, these sort of tearful goodbyes were kind of quite normal, but I guess it was normally me going back to school and then the other way around. So now it was me disappearing. So yeah, it was um yeah, it was emotional. But um, you know, the anxiety was obviously all over the shop at this point, but I kind of rationalised that who wouldn't be, you know. Yeah, it's uh it's a pretty interesting, terrifying prospect, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. So so you ended up in Indonesia, and this is not commercial flying. You are flying smaller aircraft. I mean, it's still commercial flying in a sense, you know. I'm gonna pay. They're not you're being paid to fly, but you're not flying the big airliners, you're not flying two or three people in aircraft. You are flying, you know. I mean, what kind of airline or what kind of aircraft did you did Suzy Air generally operate?
SPEAKER_00:So at that point, Suzy Air had um a fleet of Cessna caravans. These are sort of 12-seat uh single propeller um aircraft, which you know, if for someone like myself who'd only been flying really small planes, this was actually quite a big aeroplane. Um and they also flee the things called Pilates Porters, which I kind of wasn't interested in or knew anything about, you know. I had this kind of plan in my mind that I'd go out there. Um I was off a job as a co-pilot, obviously. Um so I went out there for be a co-pilot, get some experience, maybe get captain, um, get a bit more, and then come back to UK and work for DZJet, BA, whoever, you know, because I'll have experience then. You know, I'll have a couple of years commercial experience and um hopefully the you know the job market might have improved by then um and just kind of have a bit of an adventure really um at the same time. Um but yeah, things kind of changed when I got out there. And um I kind of yeah, it's hard to describe really, I suppose. Um where do I begin that bit?
SPEAKER_01:I mean start I mean for me, I mean to start by I'd love to know, I mean, explain the difference of like what it might have been flying, you know, easy jet stuff, which I think everyone can imagine, you know, it's you know, everyone's been on a you know uh a normal airline, I'm sure. Susie Air, you know, being a pilot there or a co pilot there is a completely completely different level uh kettlefish. Kind of just talk us through what that job entailed and and sort of how that sort of first year unfolded and the crazy things that happened.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, okay. So uh the aircraft, as I say, these these Cessna caravans, which they're sort of 12 seats. We have two pilots up front, all open plan. So, you know, anyone's sitting in the back. I guess if you've been on like an African safari or something like that, it's that kind of plane, probably a little bit bigger than some of those ones. Um, so non-pressurized, so we don't fly very high. Turbine engine, so it's not pissed and so it's you know got a bit more safety behind it in that regard. Turbine's generally a lot safer. Um big propeller on the front. And um basically kind of hopping between uh different parts of Indonesia. Susie had these bases all over the place, um, you know, over in Sumatra, in Borneo, in Java, um through sort of Sulawesi, and then out in in the province of Papua, uh or the New Guinea Island as well.
SPEAKER_01:I guess it's also worth mentioning that Indonesia is an archipelago of like 17,000 islands. And so it's kind of like the air the these little air hoppers are the only way to to if you want to get off the island to another island, you know, it's the only way off.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um and so Susie was basically um a bit of a pioneering air airline uh in that they would connect these sort of larger towns where, say, an easy jet type aircraft could land, um, and then from those kind of towns fly out to the really smaller kind of villages and things. Um, and that's kind of what we were doing. We were flying these caravans um between these kind of larger places and these smaller places on government subsidized routes, um, so that it would all be passengers, um, occasionally a bit of cargo here and there, um, and generally just sort of helping the infrastructure of the country, which the government of Indonesia sponsored. Um, they called these parentus flights, um, which kind of roughly translates as pioneering. And um eventually sometimes some of these routes would develop into a much bigger uh route as the runways got longer and then you know the population increased and then larger aircraft would come. But Susie would just focus on that kind of initial pioneering side of it, which I just fell in love with it. That was uh it was just you know um almost sort of I don't know if I'd love at first sight, but it was just sort of this whole kind of chaos of it all really. It just um it just really struck a chord with me um and sort of changed how I viewed aviation because I didn't realise this was even a way of making money in aviation. I kind of assumed that to do that you'd have to be an airline pilot, but yeah, it turns out there's all ways of uh of getting paid to fly aircraft. Uh and for me this was just the most awesome and interesting way. As a co-pilot of SUSE, you'd kind of work for two months at one station and then it'd move you somewhere else. And so you'd always move every couple of months, and this was deliberate. This was to kind of get you used to uh well, sorry, get you to experience all the different parts of Indonesia and sort of decide whereabouts, you know, as in the archipelago you might want to settle down because as a captain you you got to pick where you wanted, so you can kind of say, I'd like to be in Sumatra, I'd like to be in Borneo, I want to be in Java, in the big cities, you know, whatever your kind of bag was, that's where you go. Um, and for me it was Papua. Um it was, you know, when I got out there, that's that is a whole different that's it's Indonesian, but it's not Indonesia, it's a whole different thing. And um aside from just the island of Papua itself and and and the kind of local tribes and and the kind of I don't know, pioneer feel to it all, you know, you really feel like a frontier kind of a place and had an edginess to it. Um and I loved it. And then doubled up with that, I kind of found this aircraft, the Pilates Porter. And that really was love at first sight, and that's really what changed it all. Uh was fun, was just seeing those aircraft.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, I mean, just I guess talk us through the Pilates and why it's such a good match for for the absolute raw remote craziness of of Papua.
SPEAKER_00:So the Pilatus Porter, um, or the Pilatus PC six turbo porter, to give it its full name, is uh it's a Swiss-built aircraft and it was designed way back in the 50s um and sort of got popular in the sort of sixties and seventies when they started to put the turbine engines in them, which gave them good power. It's quite it was quite famous in uh if you've ever seen the movie Air America, and it was featured in that, and um you know that particular CIA airline used to use them to kind of do all sorts of interesting stuff, mostly landing on the side of mountains, which is exactly what Susia was doing with them. And uh, you know, when I saw this thing parked up, it's it's quite a large aircraft. Um, I mean it's still a single engine turbine thing, but compared to most single-engine turbines, it's pretty sizable. Uh, it'll take you know nearly a ton of cargo on board. And uh the difference between that and the caravan was that the porter was just one pilot, so not to not two crews. So it was very much just get in, throw it in the back and go flying and get the job done, kind of thing. And that just really struck a chord with me. And I kind of hopped on a couple of the flights with some of the guys and just went to some of the airstrips because the porter can land on pretty much anything you want to call an airstrip. And I was like, damn, this is just the most sick flying I've ever seen. And so at the airlines, I'm not not in not even remotely interested now. I want to do this, and so something in between like commercial piloting and stunt piloting, isn't it? Well, it's it's what you call bush flying uh or mountain flying, and it's it's a whole different thing. It's um you've still got kind of procedures and things, but it's much more seat of the pants. It's much more just you know, kind of know what you can do, know what the aircraft can do, and and basically do it as safe as you can. Um, and I wanted to I wanted to do that. And so, you know, I was only six months in as a caravan co-pilot at this point, but uh yeah, my whole kind of target changed.
SPEAKER_01:I'm trying to think of a comparison again, like with the sort of like the big air air airliner being like a big bus, you know, like a city bus, and then or like a like a coach that would drive between cities. This is more like a a quad bike or like a June buggy that would be like, you know, a bit could go anywhere do anything.
SPEAKER_00:I used to call it like a Land Rover defender, you know. It's pretty it's it's bloody uncomfortable, it's really noisy, um, it's pretty bad on everything. But if you need to get something somewhere really remote and you need to just you know put it down on some really rough terrain, it's the machine for the job, you know. Um you know, it's it's not comfortable, but it'll do it.
SPEAKER_01:And and you're you're dealing with, as I said, Papua is very remote, and the people are very different to a lot of other parts of Indonesia. And you might be seeing tribes of people that rarely see you know white people, let alone planes. Like just talk us through some of the the cultural interactions that you may have had in in your experiences.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so as I kind of say, Papua is it's it is owned by Indonesia, it is the the western half of the uh the New Guinea Island. So you've got Papua New Guinea on the on the east there, um, and then this western half is is part of Indonesia, and the people there are still Papuans. They are much different, they're sort of much darker skinned, they're quite small mountain people, very hardy. You know, these guys live much more simple lives, they don't live in fancy towns. Um most of the places didn't have electricity. Um, you know, they'd just be small little huts uh perched on the side of mountains or sort of deep in the jungles, really. It kind of depends. Um we we we flew to all of them basically, and um there was a lot of Indonesian peoples kind of moving over there, but uh you know, the majority of the population was was the Papuans who, as I say, you know, they were they hadn't seen Western people, a lot of them hadn't seen them at all. Um, but they were sort of first discovered for want of a better word by an exhibition in the 20s, um, which was uh the Archboard exhibitions, he flew uh a Catalina actually, um, and landed on one of the lakes there, and then kind of started to um interact with the locals, and um from there I guess the missionaries then started to come in, and then that's when all these little airstrips started to pop up and um and it kind of ballooned from there, I suppose. Um so these guys, the Papuans, you know, they um when they were first sort of discovered, they um they had fire and uh and kind of primitive tools and things, but uh they hadn't invented wheels at that point. Um, and so you know, this is only a hundred years ago, and they've gone from that to now having you know air transport, um riding motorbikes and driving cars and just you know iPhones or whatever. A few general yeah, iPhones. The phone signal is amazing in some parts of Parfua, it's actually better than London. Um but uh yeah, so in terms of like a progression for a a people, it's probably unprecedented, I imagine.
SPEAKER_01:Incredible. And and you're you're flying, you know, Papuins from one place to another. They might be flying with everything from hunting rivals to you know um livestock to whatever in in in the back of the cab. It's not your usual um s sort of passengers.
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean it was uh we had this kind of mantra with the porters. If it fits, it flies, you know, if you can get it in the back there and um it's you know it's not overweight and you can keep the balance correct, then uh we'll take it basically. So yeah, I had everything from live pigs um which are really noisy and make quite a mess, um, yeah, through to the kind of local peak guys with their weaponry and whatnot, um, and a lot of building supplies, you know, we'd fly a lot of that around um because obviously it was a developing and it still is a developing part of the world. So there's a lot of um um yeah, as I say, building supplies and uh tools and that sort of thing, and and as well as fuel drums. We used to fly these things around, which yeah, they were horrible. But uh it was a lot of machinery building uh roads uh and and that sort of thing, so they needed the diesel.
SPEAKER_01:Crazy. And I guess this, you know, as you said before, with the this is a remote part of the world, difficult terrain, difficult weather, and and when at what point did you I guess were confronted by the fact that this is this is a a potentially you know very dangerous and potentially lethal job. Um there was a few scenarios I've got.
SPEAKER_00:I guess like we were always aware of it. You know, everyone who flew out there knew that it was dangerous, but I guess the what really brings it home is when you have someone you know killed uh in a plane crash. That's that's when it really hits home. And I do remember that you know the first accident Susie I had um it's um a couple of guys, one of whom I you know I'd actually trained with, uh joined the company with, and um you know that kind of hits home and you think, God, okay, you know, I know he's a good guy, he's a good pilot, and you know, it happened. You know, you always had this sort of fatalistic approach that it would never be me. You know, you just I think you kind of had to have that because if you didn't you wouldn't do it. You know, if you had that kind of doubt that you couldn't do it, then you just you'd leave basically, you wouldn't do it. So yeah, that's kind of what brings it home to you, is that sort of thing. Um fortunately during my time, Susie I did have three fatal crashes. Um which yeah, it's it does hit you hard when that kind of thing happens.
SPEAKER_01:Did it tend to be everything from pilot error or was it malfunction or was it weather?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, technically you can never blame the weather because you know it's your choice to go flying in weather. Um, but as with most crashes, they were all each one had its sort of um how do you say it, it's uh like a combination of things. Um, you know, some mistakes were made. You know, and I know the first one, the aircraft was heavily overloaded, so it didn't have the climb performance that it probably should have had. Um and so yeah, they kind of ended up hitting the terrain. And yeah, you could blame many things, but ultimately it's um you know, there's never one thing with a plane crash, uh especially out there. I mean the most common one was obviously aircraft going into terrain generally because the weather was poor, um, clouds covering mountains. Um, you know, that's something you shouldn't do, but it happens sometimes, um, for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_01:Terrifying, yeah. And I guess, you know, as I said, you you know, it's a dangerous, dangerous game that you were playing. And um and on this on this show, you know, I always ask guests to come on and and share and relive a particular um story, you know, that stands out in their career. And um I think you've got a bit of a corker um that uh that sort of resonates in your book. Can you can you could sort of start from the beginning of that one and and walk us through it?
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, so this is definitely one where I genuinely thought this was going to be it. Um and it started uh how many years was I flying? I guess it must have been about five, four or five years into my career at that point. Um so I had a pretty reasonable level experience at this stage. And I was just doing a typical run for us, which was flying some fuel drums out to an airstrip called CNAC, which is about a 45-minute flight away from where I was based in Tamiko, which is in the southern flatlands of uh of Papua. And so this flight would be out into the mountains, drop off these fuel drums, take the empty ones back, uh, come back. It was mid-afternoon. So um generally at that point in Papua, you don't tend to go to the really tiny airstrips because the wind starts to pick up and it just gets a lot of cloud everywhere because you know you get this kind of lifting off the mountains, and so all went normal, took the fuel drums off there. Um as I say, it's mid-afternoon, I think it was just after lunch. Dropped them off, fine, no problem at all. Put the empty ones back on, took off, and um climbed up to 15,000 feet, which is quite high for us usually, it was on oxygen because um basically, as I mentioned, there's a lot of clouds building at this point.
SPEAKER_01:So and how long is the flight roughly?
SPEAKER_00:Uh about 45 minutes. Okay, so yeah. Uh and about 20 minutes or so of that's gonna be over the mountains, and then you're kind of clear of them, and then you're out into the flatlands. But um so we climbed up to about 15,000 was on the oxygen in the clouds because it's just safest to kind of follow these GPS tracks basically, which keep you away from uh keeps you away from all the train. And um, I just started to feel a bit nauseous, and I just thought, not feeling ideal. Um, you get that kind of malice sometimes, you're just sort of a bit tired perhaps or whatever. Um, and then all of a sudden, um I just get hit with this wave of nausea and just vomit, like just immediately I had to grab the uh the oxygen mask off my face and just vomit just straight into my lap. I couldn't even like hold it, it was just so instantaneous. Um, and then once I kind of picked myself up from that, um, then everything was spinning. The world was just spinning around, uh, and I just felt this waves of nausea and just like sweat just pouring off me. Um I was like, oh my god, and then just threw up again, you know, and and this is in an aircraft that doesn't have an autopilot, is fairly um unstable, it's not an unstable aircraft, but it's not stable either. If you let go of the controls, it'll start banking and things. You have to you have to fly it the whole time basically. And you know you're by yourself? I'm by myself, just with a bunch of fuel drums in the back. And um I couldn't work out what the hell was going on, what you know what what what's causing all of this. And you know, meanwhile, I'm inside a cloud, so I'm literally relying on the aircraft instrumentation to kind of guide me. Oh so you didn't have a point of reference, so that's really hard to do. Doesn't help. Doesn't help. And um and obviously you had these fuel drums on the back, which these things kind of pop and bang with the air pressure changes. They do give off a few fumes as well, because they don't have if they're not full, you get a lot of fumes coming out of them. So I thought, Cracky, I'm I'm being poisoned by these things, you know. I thought maybe it's these fuel drums that are just you know, the fumes are overcoming me. Um they didn't smell any worse than usual. Yeah. Um, anyway, I kind of figured out all I could really do to stop the spinning was to kind of like rest my head like this. Um, and so I was just sort of resting it on my side, just staring at what's called the artificial horizon, which basically tells you if the wings are level. Uh, and I'm just looking at that because the second I moved, the nausea it would just spin, everything would just start spinning. If I move my head in the tiniest sense, or if the aircraft gets pushed in the clouds, then that just set it off, and then I'd start I'd start vomiting again. Oh my god. Um, and it was just harrowing. Um, and you know, totally aware there's just beneath me because you know, the mountain ridge at that point I think was 13,000 feet. So, you know, a couple of thousand foot below me is just mountains, um, so I can't come down. Um and then the thought crosses my mind, oh, what if this oxygen I'm breathing? Maybe this is the problem, because you know, we had rumors that perhaps the uh the oxygen they were getting wasn't medical grade, it might have been from like a welding shop or something. All these kind of crazy thoughts go through your head at this point, and so I need to get off the oxygen. So then I think, right, let's just start going down. Um, I need to get down. So, and this is something you should never do as a pilot, is um you have what's called a terrain awareness system on board, which kind of tells you where terrain is beneath you, and the map starts going yellow and then red if you get too close. Uh, yellow if you're in a thousand foot and red if you are basically gonna hit it. Um and so I would kind of go down until it started going yellow and just warning you, you'd get the subcaution terrain. Um, at that point, you're supposed to kind of back it off. And as I say, it's not a clever way to fly an aircraft, but I was running out of options because things were spinning and I was vomiting, and you know, each time this nausea would hit, I would just get more tired, and I could feel the blinks just like getting longer and longer between each each one. And my plan was basically to track south to the flatlands, just get over the final ridges, um, and just get the heck off this oxygen so I can hopefully breathe some normal air. Um, and so yeah, so yeah, like I'm just teasing it towards the terrain, trying to get clear of it, trying not to hit it. Um, but also I'm relying on a database that may or may not be accurate. You know, I've seen it many times as a pilot, like that it would show you terrain um where there wasn't any, but more harrowing, there'd be terrain where it wasn't thinking there was. Yeah, so it was kind of a gamble at best. Anyway, I managed to kind of basically get clear of the terrain and keep going down and get below 10,000 feet where I could come off this oxygen um and start making tracks towards Tamika basically.
SPEAKER_01:And and you didn't did Collica Mayday or anything like that, or you didn't jump on the radio? Is that part of the protocol?
SPEAKER_00:I I couldn't even talk. Like I was so weak. I I was literally all my powers were just trying to keep the aircraft flying and trying to keep it straight and level. Um, because if I let go it's just gonna start spinning out, and then that's it. Um I just I just I remember getting clear of the clouds in the terrain, and so I could see the jungle, you know, 10,000 feet below, and I just on the GPS kind of went direct to um to Mika and just followed this pink line. We call the magenta line tells you in the track to kind of uh just follow that. Um and the aircraft are GPS tracked, it's easier. So I had a tracking system which I'd push the butt, which called a quick position button, and that basically pings the kind of um pings their kind of uh monitoring house that something's up with this aircraft and it kind of pings a signal out. I can't remember what it was every five seconds or something. Yeah. Um not that they can do anything, but at least you know, they can kind of see something's wrong with this aircraft. Yeah. Um and I just remember flying towards Tumika. Tomeka is a pretty big airport, it's an international airport. You know, you've got 737s coming in from uh Australia and uh in Jakarta and places, yeah. And I'm not talking to them. I'm just barreling towards it because I just need to get this aircraft on the ground. Um literally, as I say, just holding my head like this, looking at the artificial horizon, trying not to um trying not to fall asleep because every blink it'd be um and then if I move my head, then the nausea, the world will spin again, and then I thought, how the hell am I gonna land this thing? Like I can't even like move my. Head and I need to look outside to land the aircraft. Um I wasn't sure I was gonna be able to, genuinely. Every blink I just thought I'm just that'll be the last one, and the aircraft's just gonna disappear into the jungle. And then they're all gonna wonder, why on earth this aircraft crashed? Like there's nothing wrong with it. Like anyway, I um remember just setting it up onto Mika's airport, hoping no other aeroplanes were coming in, because as I said, I wasn't talking on the radio, I couldn't I couldn't even manage to like push the button to say anything. Somehow kind of lined it up on the runway and kind of just looked at the instruments and then the last minute looked up and it was all there, got it onto the runway. Um actually I think it was an okay landing, um, and then tried to come off the runway onto the taxiway, but the rudders on the port are very heavy. You use the rudders to steer it on the ground. I remember pushing the right one very hard to just get it off the runway. Couldn't really hold it, um, and then just pulled the uh the cutoff lever for the engine just to kill the power. Uh, and that's the last thing I remember. Um, and then I kind of came to was like I could feel hands underneath me like picking me up, um, and kind of in the back of a car, and then I still trying to vomit as well. Like I was just dry-retching now, so there's nothing because I was being moved and it just caused this nausea again. And then I felt like I was in this car for hours. Um, I don't know how long it was, I don't think it was that far, but anyway, to got up to a hospital and just sort of start to become coherent once I was on this kind of trolley in the hospital. Like, you know, they put like IV lines in that kind of stuff. Um and then the vomiting just sort of stopped, and then all of a sudden I just became really aware. I was like, Oh, I actually feel fine. What the heck was all this about? It was just the weirdest thing. Um really? It was that fast. Like literally, like I don't know if it was when they put the line in or whether I just everything in all the toxins, whatever was inside, just were gone, we're you know, we're done. But I was suddenly like, what the heck was all this about?
SPEAKER_01:So that was like from the time you started feeling really unwell to the sort of through the whole incident, and then to the time you started feeling a bit better. How long was that? Like a few hours? I'm guessing like three hours or so, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:That's so strange. Yeah, it was the oddest thing. Um, and you know, the doctors were like running blood tests and you know, trying to see what's wrong. And they're like, There's nothing wrong with you, like you know, there's no toxins, there's nothing weird. Um, you know, and I was like, What you know, and like what did you have for lunch? And um I was like, Oh, like I had chino mayonnaise sandwich, and I don't know. I mean, you know, it could be like some mega acute food poisoning, it's not unheard of for that to happen. I thought, hmm, I mean, I guess. I mean, I obviously went to Dr. Google H and turns out that it is actually a thing, you can actually get acute food poisoning. I think there was an easy job pilot who had something similar. Oh wow, um, but obviously on a big airline, there's two of you, yeah, which kind of helps. Yeah, all of that. But um it's uh the the the mayonnaise that uh had been used, the you know everybody was like trying to find out where they got the sandwich from. And it was one of the the maids with the Susie houses there, she'd made the sandwich for me, and it was a big jar of mayonnaise, and it was just the last kind of dregs of it. Um and you'll know from living in Indo it's pretty hot, and mayonnaise is probably best kept in a fridge, and I didn't think it was kept in a fridge, and so it might have been mayonnaise. But I never tested it after that. I didn't eat mayonnaise for the next two years.
SPEAKER_01:That is extra I mean I cannot even imagine it must have okay. So I guess the thing is if you're barely conscious, and how much are you riding on like you're just your instinct and your training to sort of get you through the because landing a plane, I guess any pilot will tell you that the most dangerous part, the hardest part is taking off and landing. And for sure. The landing was the point when you're almost the weakest.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, yeah, as I said, like I honestly I wasn't convinced I was gonna be off to land the aircraft. Um I wasn't sure if I was landing upon the raw mode properly. Um, you know, I was just using all my training and instrument kind of flying ability to just line the thing up by eye without moving my head, and then hoping to God I had it just right as I kind of poked my head up. Thankfully the Romway was right there in front of me in a straight line. I was like, oh and then all I had to do was just you know chop the power, and it's one of these things you do all the time. And um, but yeah, as I say, it was it was trying to steer the thing on the ground, it's very heavy with the rudder. I had no energy, yeah. Um, it was just unbelievable.
SPEAKER_01:What happened after that? You they ran some blood tests, you were feeling fine, and you were discharged same day kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um, yeah, as I said, they run these tests. Um, we we talked about stuff, and um yeah, they said honestly, there is nothing wrong with you. Um, you know, you're fine. And you know, they just released me the same day. So I remember going back home, and of course my phone was blowing up with messages because obviously Suzy Air, the Suzy Air rumour mill, as we call it, um, you know, it might be 17,000 islands, but everybody knows what's going on in all of them within a few seconds if there's something dramatic. Yeah, and um, so I had yeah, lots of missed calls and anyway. Um, the the chief pilot called me and um I was actually due on vacation like three days later, and he was like, Oh, you know, just go go on early, you know. And I said, Absolutely not, I want to go flying, I want to fly tomorrow. Um, because the last thing I want to do is to go away on vacation for two weeks and have that as my last flight. Yeah, uh, he was actually pretty much like, no, like you do you're going on all day. I was like, I was like, no, I want to fly. Um and I did. I went so I think I had one day off, uh just to be sure. Um honestly I was absolutely fine. And um I and then I went and flew the schedule the next two days. Um and yeah, I got back on that horse because I had to put it behind me. Yeah, it's um as I say, like I think I guess it can go two ways with that sort of thing. You either kind of get terrified and never do it again, or you uh you jump back on the horse and and you get back home with it, especially if it's something you love doing, you know.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's really interesting. I had a previous episode with a pilot who had a um uh she was in a similar situation, small aircraft but crashed in the the middle of the Pacific. And um and so she had her, you know, nine hours uh in the middle of nowhere and hoping to get rescued on a boat and all that kind of stuff. But I would expect her to to find that whole experience harrowing and traumatic, and she's like, no, no. I got back to base, you know, a couple days later, got back in a plane and did it all again and got back on the horse. And yeah. Is it is it a pilot thing? Like it's just it's so the job itself is so exhilarating that it's gonna be take a lot for something to to sort of knock you off and keep you down.
SPEAKER_00:I think so. I mean, I don't know if it's just a pilot thing, but I think if it's something you're passionate about and it's something you enjoy doing, like even if it is dangerous, um, then you're if you know there's that old mantra isn't if it doesn't kill you, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Makes you stronger, yeah. Um I don't know about that, but it definitely if it doesn't kill you and you still like doing it, then carry on doing it basically. And um absolutely as I say, I didn't eat mayonnaise for the rest of my time in Indonesia.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you didn't get back on the mayonnaise horse, that was the I didn't get back on that one.
SPEAKER_00:That was uh and actually what's quite funny because um at uh as I say at Susie had different bases and um we were quite capped so we had a little house there with normally uh some staff like a maid um and kind of guys who take it to or from the airport and so um but the word got round about the mayonnaise and so I never had to say no mayonnaise in my sandwiches, I just never got mayonnaise again.
SPEAKER_01:It's just a given amazing. I mean, given given all that, like I mean, what do you you know, in all your experiences uh in Indonesia flying, you know, bush bush piloting? I mean, what does it take to be a bush pilot, would you say? And and people that it might be listening to be like, that kind of sounds like a something I'd love to do. But re realistically, what does it take to be a successful Bush pilot?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, so there's there's a few things, I suppose. Um I remember the best bit of advice I got was actually the guy who trained me on the porter, a guy called Sven Imsan, um Swiss actually, and um he said to me, He said, like, this is like your kind of box of experience, right? And said initially just fly within the box, just stay within that and just build that up. But every so often, push it, go to the edge of that box, maybe nudge it a bit, and then the box gets a bit bigger, and then you just keep doing this, and then you keep doing this, and then the experience box gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and it just allows you all this um to kind of develop experience uh and just sort of get to the edge of that safely. Because if you stay within the box and you just stay here, one day you'll get something that's gonna be over here somewhere, and if your box is still here, you'll find basically. Yeah. Whereas if that box has been expanded and it happens and it's just on the edge, you've probably got enough experience to cover yourself on that uh and say and save that situation. And that stuck with me. Um interesting and not just with flying, just with life in general, really. Um it's seeming good to be honest.
SPEAKER_01:And what does that look like when you're piloting, let's say, your sort of mid-career and you're like this this approach looks pretty sketchy, it's kind of a bit cloudy. I know the runway's short, it might be a little bit muddy. I might not typically do this, but I'm gonna give this a try. I mean, what kind of give us a scenario of what pushing the boundary might look like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, that's that's very much it, really, would be um sort of going to perhaps an airstrip that you hadn't been to before, um, that was maybe a little bit shorter than what you were used to or a little bit steeper. Um, I mean, what I used to do actually would be to take an airstrip that was comfortably within my zone, but then just test it a bit by perhaps coming in at a much more acute angle to kind of actually sort of practice, you know, if there was a load of cloud on the approach, how could I get into an airstrip where I had to make a very sh tight turn to onto the final approach right at the last minute sort of thing? And just sort of practicing that sort of stuff where you had a you know more margin for error, such that if you got presented with that down the line for real, then at least you've kind of you know got a better baseline to go off as opposed to just suddenly going, what am I gonna do now? You know, and I I guess the art of bush flying is is very much sort of um knowing when you need to push it a bit and knowing when you've got to back it off. Because you know, there are some times where you know you you look up that valley and it's like a little bit cloudy and you go, what is that doing? Can I get in and out of there safely, or or is that just gonna be you know too dicey? Um, but equally sometimes you have to make that call. And because if you just kept coming back to base and not making that call, you'd never get the job done. So it's that kind of that balancing act, which that comes with experience.
SPEAKER_01:I suppose when you do get the tricky ones, like every like all of your, you know, you're absolutely zoned in and focused because you've you've got to be like and some of the runways that you did have that were tricky, they're I mean I imagine they're like on the sides of mountains and stuff, like that kind of thing, like literally that level.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, definitely as I gained more experience uh with the flying, I was um then invited to basically uh open up an airstrip, as you'd say. So it'd be the very first aircraft to to land on an airstrip, say. So this would be um you know, a local village has spent many years hand constructing these runways, you know, by chopping trees down, moving rocks out of the way. You know, all by hand with hand tools. Um and then the word would come out via the kind of local um villages basically, the the network, uh, and uh it would come back to the you know where the aircraft would be based, like there's a new runway, and we'd like you to come and have a look at it.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And so with that, that's that's when you kind of sometimes you get some information, you know, you get some coordinates, where it was, that sort of thing, maybe how long it was, maybe a helicopter had gone before just to go and have a look. Um but sometimes you're going in blind, you know, you'd you take someone along with you who would just be like, Okay, it's sort of near this airstrip, but carry on up the valley and it's on the left around the corner, sort of thing. Um, and so you'd then have to go and check it out. And so um had a kind of system which you go overhead and you'd have a look at it, and then you kind of down a bit lower just to have a look at the surface, and then try and come up the other side of the runway if you could, just to sort of see what it would look like on the takeoff, and and ultimately you'd then commit to that landing. And so, yeah, you'd kind of focus a bit more then, you know, even if it didn't look that hard because you know no one has been there yet, so it's definitely not 100% safe. Not that any of them are, but it would be yeah, you definitely you get a bit more adrenaline going for those kind of ones. Um, and then when you land, it was just the uh the marvel of it because obviously you were now connecting this village to the outside world basically, and so yeah, there'd be huge celebration, you know, everyone would be dancing and chanting, and really um you'd often get presented with gifts and things, and it was yeah, it was just wonderful. You know, that was kind of a real privilege of the of the job in the end.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. So like they would be giving you like local gifts, things they made, or food or yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean you get sort of necklaces and bracelets, and uh but normally they they give you uh a cockerel. That was the uh that would that would be a tradition. So I um I had quite a few in the end. I remember the very first one we got um uh I took him back to the house and uh we called him Boris. Yeah. And um he woke me up at four o'clock in the morning, so Boris didn't last that night.
SPEAKER_01:At least you got a fresh chicken the next day, I guess, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for your best, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh poor Boris. Oh man. But that I think that's honestly incredible that you know like a village like that kind of gets an idea that you know we want to be connected to the outside world, and to do that, no one's gonna build our runway for us, we've got to do it ourselves. And they spend, as you said, like a year or whatever preparing. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think one of them I remember was I think they were still 20 years into building it. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the yeah, I can imagine from their perspective, the first time a plane lands is it's like a complete game-changing moment for them. You know, they can trade, they can get stuff in, they can get stuff out, and and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, because obviously they would, you know, they'd walk between the villages, there'd be a lot of little kind of jungle piles and things. So they'd kind of see the benefits from another village, you know, potentially this one has electricity and you know, they've got solar panels and everything else. And so they're like, oh, it'd be nice to have that in our village. And so and that's kind of how it would go.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. That that's just yeah, it's sort of human ingenuity, you know, that sort of desire to be connected to to other people and to the rest of civilization. And I guess uh for better or for worse, you know, um is there's very much so.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very much so. Um I do remember even during my short short time out there, it was um the development was enormous. Um and as you say, for better or worse, you know, a a big sort of downside I would say would be the uh would be to be the rubbish, the trash. Um because you know, a lot of these guys, you know, obviously they they've they've lived on just on the land basically. So, you know, they'd eat eat on banana leaves and and and everything. And so now they get a packet of noodles and they do what they do with the banana leaves, they just toss it in the jungle because the jungle absorbs unfortunately a plastic water bottle and a pack of noodles, it stays there, and so yeah, it was always a bit of a trash epidemic in a lot of places, sadly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Um so I I wanted to ask about your anxiety problems. Um so we started this sort of story with um with that, and you know, when you got to the end of your career with Susie and and decided to leave, anxiety problems completely disappeared.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so yeah, I should have mentioned that earlier. Um they disappeared pretty quickly actually, um, whilst I was still a copilot. And I couldn't pinpoint a date or you know, exact moment when I um when it had gone, but I just sort of became aware at some stage during those first few months that I was sleeping soundly, waking up, normal time, and none of this churning feeling anymore. And it didn't make any sense at the time. I kind of just went with it. I thought, oh, this is amazing, I'm cured. Like, thank God, this like harrowing life, you know, this has been like a decade of my life of just feeling crap. Um I just completely gone. And but reflecting back now, I I kind of realize, and I kind of touched on it earlier, that when I've kind of done something, I feel I'm done with it, and so I then want to do something else. And you know, as someone in their kind of mid-20s, I didn't have a lot of life experience, and so I think my mind would have been at that stage, this is me forever, in this flat in Bristol, working this Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, this is it, the rest of your life is this, and so by you know, jacking all of that in, moving to the other side of the world to a job I'd never been to, literally giving myself the most extreme kick that I could have imagined, kind of taught me deep down psychologically, that nothing's forever, basically. And so if you really want to make a change to life, you can make a change. And so I've kind of gone with that ever since, really. Um, and I suspect that's why I did seven years in Asia because it was a similar period. Five or six years in, I was like, kind of getting done with this, like I wouldn't mind trying something else now. Yeah, um, and so I did, you know, and people thought I was crazy, like, why are you leaving this lake paradise? It's amazing flying, and you know, and all these airline people were texting me, going, God, you're mad. Why the hell would you want to leave all this? And because I was done with it. Um, I had an incredible time. I'd done more than I could possibly have ever achieved, and but I needed to make the change. Um, because that's just who I am, it turns out.
SPEAKER_01:Fascinating. I think that's really interesting, and actually quite an interesting message as well. The fact that, you know, a lot of people out there, you know, going into careers, they might find the office job, you know, the good salary, the stability, that is their sort of comfort and safety zone. And understandably, you know, absolutely. But what's happened what it turns out for you and maybe some other people out there is that they need the opposite. The chaos, the rough and ready, the slight edge of danger, the unpredictability to it, the risk, that is your comfort and safety zone, you know. Um ironically.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I don't even know if it needs to be that because I mean, you know, I've been obviously back in the UK now for um eight years and I'm getting edgy feet for sure. Um, you know, again. Um so but it's it's and I've I'm having I'm having a great time still and I'm still enjoying life, but I've I still want another challenge. Um haven't quite settled on what that's gonna be yet, but I'm you know, I'm making inquiries, shall we say?
SPEAKER_01:What uh have you are you able to clue us into anything that you're interested potentially in this?
SPEAKER_00:Anything really. Um just something else in flying, I suspect, you know, maybe the airlines might be the thing now, you know. Um because I've done all these other kinds of things in flying. Um I've been flying this kind of corporate uh corporate jet basically around Europe, which is amazing and it's an amazing job. And so, you know, maybe a different aircraft doing that sort of thing, or as I say, maybe the airlines. Um, as I say, I haven't really decided, but maybe something else entirely. Um I mean my my retirement plan is to buy a sailing yacht and go sailing around the world. So that's you know I need some more danger. I need to go over the Atlantic and get terrified by some massive waves because that just sounds awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, apparently you just need to be in that discomfort zone to feel comfortable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I reckon. Yeah. Fantastic. I don't I don't do well in like The rut, the normal rut.
SPEAKER_01:It doesn't work for me. Yeah. It doesn't work, clearly. Brilliant. Matt, absolutely fantastic uh chatting hearing all your stories and uh fascinating conversation. And I was at the end of the end of the show, just love uh offering people a chance of uh you know telling people what they've been up to, where they can find you, and uh what you've kind of got uh out of the world.
SPEAKER_00:Um so yeah, you can uh you can find me online. Uh I have a lot of social media things. Uh at Indopilot is my kind of handle. You can get me on Instagram, Twitter, and um what's the other Facebook and that's it? Um I'm such a professional with all the social media things. Um but on top of that, I also have this book which I've written called Flying from Shangri-La, which uh basically follows my whole journey from being in IT through to being a bush pilot out in Indonesia and kind of all the things I've learnt along the way and and all the kind of adventures through it. It's um it's an aviation book, but it's it's not written for pilots. It's written for anybody who enjoys adventure um and just sort of life-changing kind of moments, I suppose. Um so yeah, good go check it out.
SPEAKER_01:And I'd be reading through, and it is, as you said, it's super accessible, it's not too technical, and it's written sort of you know, very much in like sort of story, you know, um centric kind of way, and uh very, very easy to read and and lots of super fun anecdotes and a real inside look. I mean, especially for anyone that's interested in Bush piloting, um, especially in Indonesia. I mean, you couldn't ask for a better sort of behind the scenes look into that world. So um I think yeah, absolutely check it out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's definitely uh there's probably some stories in there that probably didn't need to be shared, but people tell me they're funny anyway. So uh we found that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was reading them and I was like, wow, Matt really went for it. Yeah, you sort of opened book there. It was uh literally yeah, literally, exactly fantastic. Brilliant. Matt, thank you so much for uh taking the time today to to chat and uh yes.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, most welcome, Chris. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:And that is a wrap on this week's episode. A huge thanks again to Matt for sharing his stories with us, and of course, thanks to you all for listening and watching as well. If you'd like to learn more about Matt's work or his book, Flying from Shangri-La, you'll find all the links in the show notes or over on our website, no ordinarymonday.com. And as always, you can find extra clips and visuals from this episode all across our socials. We're on Instagram, LinkedIn, and over on the No Ordinary Monday podcast community page on Facebook, where you can join the conversation, ask questions for guests, and share your thoughts about the show. Next week on No Ordinary Monday, I am joined by Death Doula and educator Danny Petkovich. Danny's work centers on helping people face death with more honesty, less fear, and far more humanity. We explore how denying death actually creates more suffering and how learning to talk about it openly can make life richer, more connected, and more meaningful. So make sure you're following or subscribe to the show so you don't miss out on this or any of our future episodes. Now, if you enjoyed today's show, there are four simple ways that you can show us some support. You can click five stars on this episode or the show on whatever platform you're listening on. Number two, you can leave us a short review. Number three, share the episode with a family, friend, or colleague. And finally, number four, you can buy us a coffee or a beer at buymeacoffee.com slash no ordinary monday. Any one of these things can help us keep the lights on, stay independent, avoid adverts, and keep bringing you amazing guests and stories week after week. And that's it for this episode. This show is independently produced, hosted, and edited by me, Chris Barron. Thank you so much for listening. Take care everyone, and we'll see you next Monday.
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