What Facing Death Taught Me About Living (Death Doula)

A fear of death can quietly shape an entire life. For Danni Petkovic, that fear was physical and relentless — years of death anxiety, intrusive thoughts, and a nervous system locked into survival mode at the mere idea of mortality. Everything changed when her brother was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumour. What followed was an intimate education in dying: navigating prognosis, care, logistics, legacy, and love in real time. That experience didn’t just ease Danni’s fear — it led her to her calling as a death doula and death literacy educator, supporting individuals and families through end-of-life care with clarity, calm, and humanity.

In this episode of No Ordinary Monday, we go behind the euphemisms that surround death and dying. Danni explains how clear language can reduce fear, why death was once handled at home within communities, and what’s been lost by medicalising and outsourcing our end-of-life rituals. We talk openly about voluntary assisted dying in Australia, the practical realities most people avoid — advance care directives, wills, passwords, pets, photos, and personal belongings — and how thoughtful planning can make grief gentler. 

Danni also shares what it means to sit with someone as they die, to care for the body afterwards, and to help families create rituals that reflect culture, belief, and truth rather than shame. It’s a confronting conversation, but also a hopeful one: planning while well is an act of love, children often cope better with honesty than adults, and talking about death won’t kill you — avoiding it won’t make you immortal.

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Links: 

https://liminalbeing.com.au/

http://dyingtoknow.au/

Socials: 

https://www.instagram.com/dannipetkovic/?hl=en

https://www.facebook.com/liminalbeing

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannipetkovic/?originalSubdomain=au

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Transcript

A Life Defined By Death Anxiety

SPEAKER_02 0:01

I was really deathphobic. I had something people call danatophobia, where I had a lot of death anxiety about my own mortality.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

For Danny Pekovich, her fear of death wasn't so much spiritual or philosophical. It was something that literally affected her daily life.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I would have like a physical response to thinking one day I'm not going to be here. I would not be able to breathe. I would have to deliberately and forcefully stop the thoughts and try and do something else, which really drove my life.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

And then something happened. An event in her life that forced her to confront death in ways that she just hadn't before. And it changed everything.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Only now that I work in this space it makes sense. And in this shift, the last uh three years, the fear's gone, the anxiety is completely gone.

What A Death Doula Really Does

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Hey folks, welcome to No Ordinary Monday. Hope your week is off to a great start wherever you're listening or watching from. I'm Chris Byron. I am a documentary filmmaker, and each week I invite a guest onto the show to tell me about the most extraordinary experience they've ever had on the job. We start with the path that led them there, we find out what the job is really like behind the scenes, and then we reveal the most important lessons that they've learned along the way. Alright, so before we start today's episode, a couple quick announcements. First up, I wanted to say a genuine and heartfelt thank you to all of you who have supported the show so far. I'll give you guys a proper shout out at the end of the episode, but I just wanted you to know that your support really does make a difference, and I am incredibly grateful. If you'd like to support what we're doing here, um you can visit buymakecoffee.com slash no ordinary monday. Secondly, if you guys have questions about anything that we cover in these episodes, or maybe questions for guests, or just general thoughts about the show, you can reach me directly at hello h-l o at no ordinary monday.com. I do my best to read and respond to every email. And finally, just one quick disclaimer before we get into it. Today's episode touches on themes of death, dying, and grief. Nothing graphic, but some of the conversations are emotionally heavy. So if that's something that you need to be mindful of today, please take care while it's like. Alright, so my guest today is Danny Petkowitz. Danny is a death dualer and death literacy educator. She is someone that works alongside people and families as they face the end of life. She helps them navigate one of the most challenging and least talked-about events in our lives. In this episode, Danny takes us inside that turning point. Her brother's terminal illness and a serendipitous meeting in an unexpected moment of crisis would lead her to a career in the thing that she feared the most in this world. You're listening to No Ordinary Monday? Let's get into the show. Danny, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

I'm great. Thanks for having me, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

No worries at all. Pleasure. So where are you calling from at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

I'm in Sydney. I'm on Camarangle Lands, just um on the north side of Sydney.

Police Work And The “Wrong Side” Of Death

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Oh, amazing. Lovely. Well, I'm very excited to have you on the show. Um, and as you can probably tell, I don't know, death, death, chatting about death, death literacy is kind of a bit of a theme. I've already had a previous episode chatting about it. And um I find it a fascinating topic, and I'm really looking forward to getting into it. But before we dive into your work in as a death doula and in death literacy education, your career. I was I was on your LinkedIn earlier, and your career, your LinkedIn is like something, it's almost like 10 people's LinkedIns had been like mashed together into one into one CV. It's it's amazing. I mean, I wonder if you could just kind of list a few of the career, maybe all of them. You know, you've had a few uh type of careers you've had before that, you've the one you've got now.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

It's very true, it's very true. So I did start out um studying psychology um at university, and I was 17 when I finished high school and moved states because I grew up in a tiny country town and I didn't love uni. I didn't love the course, I didn't really love anything about it. And I um had been at some point in my childhood passionate about joining the police force, and so I did. I moved state again to uh Melbourne, and so I joined the police force to help people. I found it took me about seven years to realize that wasn't the career to help people, and that I was not quite best placed for what I wanted to do, but also there was this constant feeling of what's my purpose? What am I on the planet for? Why am I here? I went into personal training for about a decade after that, alongside other careers. I moved to the Netherlands and I worked in tourism and then moved back to Australia. I started a bar and cafe, I bought a publishing business. Uh in between, I had a child. And then uh post uh when I came back, I chefed for a year with friends that had a hotel that needed somebody to do a bit of extra work. And it was it was sort of getting me back after having a baby. And then what did I do after that? I I went into tourism, sales, and marketing. I went into event management after that. I went into digital producing and media and social media management, and then I moved into managing a box office and theater marketing team, and then from there into back to publishing that for an arts publisher, arts and screen. And it was then that I got to where I am now because in those 11 other careers before my current death career, um, it was a lot of trying to find my purpose, it was a lot of trying on different things to really land as to why I'm here. And I was really death phobic. I had something people call danatophobia, where I had a lot of death anxiety about my own mortality. And that drove my life. Like I was, you know, death-defying, living on the edge, not sleeping much, you know, pushing all boundaries, never afraid of, you know, what it looked like because I would just had this con it's kind of counterintuitive, I know, and it's probably ironic and all the things, but it was definitely defined me for a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Just taking it back a little bit, I mean, um I I wanted to sort of understand your police work was, you know, a big chunk of your early career. Um and I I saw in I kind of want to touch on your police work, but also what you say, your thal thalosophobia, if I've said that correctly, or Thanatophobia, yeah. Thanatophobia.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Just a fancy word for death anxiety, I think.

Why We Struggle To Talk About Dying

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, crazy. And and so I saw another interview where you were talking about you, you know, when you did some really interesting stuff in the police uh as a police officer. You know, you did some sort of covert stuff working with difficult things, and like, you know, you saw what you've said before is the wrong side of death. I wonder if you can kind of tell us a little bit about that.

Death Doulas, Language, And Lost Rituals

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Sure. Um, there's so much death in police work, and it's often sudden death, premature death, traumatic death where police are called. It's not everyday death where someone's dying peacefully at home. And and things like seeing somebody who was not that didn't have family, that was not cared for by anyone or known to have died by anyone. Those sort of things and suicide really affected my time as a police officer because they you can't unsee things and you know they etch in your psyche as you know, horrific deaths. Uh I think they definitely helped shape who I am in the care and compassion I have for people and the open-mindedness I have in supporting people wherever they are and with whatever they've experienced, because you you you can't come back from seeing that sort of stuff. It also feels odd that I still could never lean into my own mortality, maybe because of or despite that, I don't know. Um, I remember having it from a very young age where I really would shut down. I would have like a physical response to thinking one day I'm not gonna be here, and it would play on repeat, and then my brain would just start closing in on itself almost, and I would not be able to breathe. I would have to deliberately and forcefully stop the thoughts and try and do something else, which really drove my life for as a young, as a young girl, you even had this. My whole 20s at least, you know, my late, late teens and whole 20s. Yeah. Yeah. I had a near-death experience when I was 15, and I don't know whether it came from I really can't pinpoint what it came from. I also remember as a 10-year-old hearing the first death in my family that was my grandpa's uncle. He migrated here as a war refugee in 1949, and he and he died, and he was the only person I ever knew that died. And I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral, and it was a really sort of adult thing and a really kind of hushed thing, and it was very sad. It was the first time I saw my dad cry. It was it was devastating that I never saw him again, and that I never like grieving wasn't, you know, let's help the kids grieve, kind of if it wasn't a thing. So I don't really know. I can't pinpoint it, and I stopped trying to work it out. I did a lot of different things to unpack this death anxiety in my 20s. I read a lot, I did different sorts of psychotherapies to kind of really unpack it, but I never got there's some wild theories out there why people have death anxieties. Uh, but I never really got anything that made sense to me. Only now that I work in this space, it makes sense that being in a space where I talk about death and dying, where I open up conversations for others, feels life-affirming. And in this shift, the last uh three years, I the fear's gone. The anxiety is completely gone. I don't have this existential dread constantly.

Inside The Work: VAD, Admin, Legacy

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, it's really interesting because I'm one someone who's very fortunate. Um, and um I didn't have didn't get exposed to death, you know, at an early age, uh, as you unfortunately were. And I guess my view of death is probably, I guess, more of a common one. I don't have a I don't have a fear of it. You know, I don't have that anxiety over death. I guess the biggest thing I have anxiety maybe over is the the the transitional part, the dying section of it. Um and I don't have a fear necessarily over that because I don't know what it is. I mean I hope it's not not horrific. But um I guess what what is it? And because I like I say I I did this documentary and I mentioned before, you know, about death um for the ABC in Australia. And we did a lot of this stuff with um trying to figure out why people really struggle, and it's it's what you do all the time. Why do people really struggle with this concept? It's it's a taboo subject for a lot of people in their families. And what why can we not talk about something that every single human being on earth will at some point 100% guaranteed face? There's no one that we know of that is um ever escaped this um this mortal coil, you know?

SPEAKER_02 12:03

In the public talks I do, I say that, but you know, it is death is our only certainty in this human form. It's the only commonality we all have and the only thing we'll all face. And some people will stop me and say there's death and taxes. And then I say, but people run to Switzerland or the Bahamas to evade tax, find me somebody who's evaded death. Like we they don't exist. So, yes, let's talk about it. I do challenge the comment that death is taboo, and if people start with that dialogue, then I want to know why they consider it taboo because it's not taboo, it's part of life. And so when we stop saying, you know, death is morbid or taboo, then we can have a space where we talk about it because no one wants to talk about something that's taboo or that's you know, uh not allowed in um public arenas. So I will ask people, what is it about death or dying? Which which is it? Is it about the unknown? Is it, you know, and I won't prescribe these questions. I'll ask them and allow them to explain and you know, really meet them where they're at.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

That's I was gonna enter that. I mean, I I was saying to a few people this week, like, oh, I'm having an interview with the death doula, you know, and they're like, what on earth is a death doula? You know, I think people some people may have heard of a doula or like a birth doula, which is I guess again, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's someone who sort of helps bring life into the world, and a death doula does the other end of it. Is that pretty much it?

SPEAKER_02 13:39

So a doula could be called a death midwife or a death walker or an end-of-life support person carer. We you know that we labor into life and we labor out of all out of life. It is a laboring process in either journey, and there is an end to it. So a doula, doula literally translates to to serve, it's an ancient Greek word, and there's been doulas for forever. It's just not been a western culture term that has been readily used or available. So we 100 years ago we did it as family, as community. We laid our dead and dying in the front room, uh, family gathered around. It was a community response, a community-led, family-led. Often the women would tend to the dying and then tend to the deceased and care for their body and prepare it for you know the net the ceremony and the disposal. But we changed that, we outsourced it. And so when we outsourced it, it became a monetized industry, a sanitized. And I like using euphemized as well because we've lost the language along the way. So we don't have the conversations we had before, and we don't see death every day or regularly like we used to, where the whole family gathers and it's normalized. And when it's normalized, it shifts everything. There's no cloak and dagger about what's happening or what has happened. And I think when we deny it, we unintentionally deny support that people need. They it that creates suffering and it changes the way we grieve. Because if death is shrouded in mystery and so-called taboo or it's uh hidden, then that changes how we relate to it.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah. I mean, I I wanted to go back um just to a little bit on the Death Dooler stuff, um, because I want to give people an idea. We've talked a little bit what a Death Dooler, their role is, but I would love to give people a behind the scenes of what it actually involves, you know, in a typical day, a typical week, or with clients that you work with. What I mean, what what is a behind the scenes of a death dooler look like?

Sitting With The Dying And Aftercare

Children, Honesty, And Brave Conversations

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I guess the first thing to say is there's no typical. Because death is like life, and people die as they live. However, you know, I might have somebody call me, and I've only been doing this for just over a year. So in that time, or a little bit longer than that now, but in that time, you know, I've had people who are accessing voluntary assisted dying. They're either in the process or they've been approved. So voluntary assisted dying is legal everywhere in Australia other than the Northern Territory at the moment. There is a lot of how can you support not just me, but my the people around me. Like I mentioned before, I don't want to cause them pain. But this is a decision I've made. So it might be, it might be that they are cut off from family or they don't have family. It might be that they don't want their family to know that's that has happened too. Where they don't, they think that they will try and talk them out of it. And so they have me come in, support them, but I'm supporting them in death care and illness rather than supporting them for the very end uh you know, time. So that's one element of it, you know, supporting them either to have that process happen in a facility or at home, so you can have it administered by a doctor or you can self-administer. There's very strict processes around it. Uh, it might be that um accepting mortality, which you know I know very well that that's not an easy task. So I've been given a diagnosis, and how do I get wrap my head around it? What do I need to know? What uh what do I do next? Uh and that may be just looking at what they have done already, what paperwork they have in place. Um, there is a bit of admin around death and dying, making sure you have a will, making sure you have an advanced care directive. Uh so there's a lot of questions about that. We have an amazing organization in Australia, Advanced Care Planning Australia, that's federally funded to help everyday people as well as people like duelers who are working in this space. Because somebody may just come to get completely well, and they might come just to get their paperwork done. And it's really about having the conversations, practicing and knowing what you want or finding out what's possible. Like we spoke earlier about, you know, you can be buried, you can be cremated, your cremate cremates can go off into fireworks. You cover that on another episode. You can be acclimated now. People are being buried standing up without coffins now. You can be shrouded and not, you know, you can be buried with your pet. That's legal in New South Wales now. That's very new. I think since that conversation, that wasn't a legal thing. So there's all these questions and decisions that we're not doing on an everyday. Like it's not like getting your license and you know, paying your registration and stuff. We don't have these natural mechanisms in Australia to create your advanced care directive, to create your will, to capture the things that are outside of financial and legal will that are important to you, your legacy, your digital footprint, your digital legacy, you know, your photos, your um other things that might not formulate part of a will that are meaningful to you, who gets your pet? You know, that's such a big thing for so many people. Who gets your record collection? It may not have warranted going into a, you know, a financial will, but you might have a vinyl collection that you're really passionate about who it's going to and the next life of that. I had a dear colleague, he was a uh documentary filmmaker and uh screen editor and screen journalist in my last job, and he was a dear friend. He died the year before last, and he didn't want a funeral, but he had a memorial. And at his memorial, he so obviously he wasn't there, but he He was present because he opened up his library, he had an extensive book collection, and he asked us to come in and take a book that had meaning to him. You know, what a beautiful legacy.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Not only in the beautiful work he created, but everybody that was there was able to connect with him and then keep something that, you know. But if you don't have that conversation with someone before you're dying, it's too late at the end to have these conversations. You need to plan while you're well and you need to plan when it's not crisis.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I wanted to just get a sense of um, you know, being a death dueler, as I said, you you're a guide for these people that are either the individual themselves who's dying or the families who are um dealing with that, um, all of the not just the emotional side of things, but you know, the administrative side of things. But you're also sometimes in the room, you're asked to be in the room with them as they as they pass as well. And and kind of because that might be something that a lot of people haven't experienced before. What what does that tend to be like?

The Turning Point: Shane’s Diagnosis

SPEAKER_02 21:01

So I also like to ask people about the language we use. So when we say pass, like I like to I I meet people where they're at. So I won't like put my language onto you, but you know, I do use death and dying. And I ask people to reflect on why they use, you know, euphemized language to see what it softens or what it reveals as to why we do and where it came from. So when I sit with, so if you don't mind, I will use dying. Um, so when people die and I'm with them, it's often too hard. Or it is people die when the people are out, the people that they love are out of the room. That happens so often. So I'm really comfortable to sit with someone as they die and to tend to them after they've died. And so I'm happy to tend to the dead and the deceased, and I'm happy to prepare them to support the family to prepare their body for the next part. What I find fascinating is that even people in a care role where they are in those spaces aren't comfortable with the body, the person who has died, the human. I still like to say the person once they've died because they find it scary.

unknown 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

They find it that they're really uncertain what to do, they're really timid and a little bit fearful. That surprised me because a lot of these people have known that person a lot longer than me, but they still are fearful. Um, sometimes it's too much for the family. Sometimes their anticipatory grief means that they can be with them to a certain point, but not the final breath. Uh, so I am very happy to be part of that. There's also times where I've supported a parent whose child's dying, and they have a hard time in the lead up with having meaningful conversations about what's happening in their world because family and friends, well-meaning, say things like, have hope. And it's not, it's you know, that they won't actually talk about death and dying, and they won't talk about the terminalness of what's happening with that child. And so I've actually been thanked for being able to be there and have the real conversations because for one particular parent, I was the only person they were able to have that conversation with because everyone else was the child didn't die when it was expected. And so therefore, everyone said have hope. And they were trying to really, you know, be positive. And that actually then doesn't allow that person to say, okay, how can I make meaning of what's happening? How can I make a legacy from my child's short life? Which there's plenty of ways that dualers support that as well, legacy and meaning making. And how do I prepare not just myself but the people around me? It's devastating. It's not the same as caring for a 94-year-old who's dying. But in that, they still need the same things. They need acknowledgement, they need acceptance, they need hope is not what they need in that time. They need all the practical things, they need the spiritual, whatever that is, the cultural, whatever it that is for that person and that family. They need support that's meaningful and practical. They don't need people saying be positive.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

That is, I cannot even imagine. As you said, you know, having conversations with parents whose children are dying must be hard enough. But you working with an adult who is dying, that's one thing because the adult probably has a pretty good idea of what is happening to them.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah.

Serendipity At Shannon’s Bridge

SPEAKER_00 25:03

But if you have a child, how how on earth do you even yeah, you as a doula has been asked to come in and try and explain to that child what is going to happen to them?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Kids always know. And and you know, maybe a baby is different. That's really more support for the family. But kids know a lot more than what we ever give them credit for. I have a dear friend that works at the at the children's hospital in that space as well. And they're very raw and honest and refreshingly real, and they use language that is death and dying. And you know, I I might have a kid say to me, you know, my sibling, ex is gonna die. And I say yes. And then we talk about it. But it's they need that real language and that real conversation. And I think that yeah, in my short experience in this space, that children are often braver.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

It's interesting. It's almost like they haven't had been indoctrinated or the the the sort of society has you know uh sort of instilled this fear of death and this is how we talk about death, they're still sort of fairly just raw and open and haven't been um taught to fear it in the same way. That's very interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

They're not always aware. There's plenty of scenarios where they're not, but when they are aware, uh I've not experienced the same sort of existential crisis and thinking as what a lot of us adults have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

So on this show, we always like our guests to to come on and uh just share or relive sort of like a no-ordinary Monday story, you know, that sort of has a real impact on their career and who they are today. So I wonder if you could share that with us.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

For sure. So my brother was diagnosed with uh terminal brain tumour, brain cancer three years ago. And in that time that he was diagnosed, he so he's living in Country Victoria, I'm living in Sydney. I was back visiting him after he had treatment, and he asked me to stay and not not leave and support him. And it was quite a shock because I was actually there for a long weekend with my daughter, and I hadn't uh really given it any thought. I'd been with him for his first surgery where he had the well, his only surgery, but he had the craniotomy and had the tumour removed as much as they could, but then they also diagnosed and gave him the prognosis that it was terminal and there's no treatment beyond some radiation now and some chemo, but it's not life-saving.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

It's just did they give him uh like a how long he had to live kind of thing?

Planning Time, Money, And Care

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Or was it so they don't really do that anymore? And I would have loved them to say, you know, you have this sort of time left, and you know, I I don't know. Like we kind of our human brains need those answers, I think. But they don't really do that. What I was able to elicit from Claire and Jeremy was that don't plan the holiday at Christmas. This was in May, April, May. Don't plan the holiday with him at Christmas, plan it now. And so we had a winter beach holiday in June because and he died in July. So if you know, I'm very grateful that they were honest with us in that. In, you know, I'd love to be wrong, but he may not be well enough if he is still alive then. And you know, that was a conversation that was had in front of him, and you know, there was even a few jokes that were made, and you know, who was going to buy who a beer if uh he was still there, but you know, it was it made us like fast track everything. So Shane was a single dad to three teenagers, and he was living in my grandparents' farmhouse that I'd actually been living there 15 years before to care for my my grandpa, who was uh 94, to stay at home. And in that time that I was I did stay and care for him, you know, I still had that absolute dread of my own mortality. But I also have this greater thing that is about helping and being helpful and being available where I where it's possible. And so I said yes without even thinking how I was going to manage this. Uh and I did stay, and I was able to care for him and you know, juggle all of life's uh competing priorities with doing that, and really just lean into what his needs were and just block out anything. And I'd become really adept at this stage, you know. I'm yeah, late 40s by then, and I, you know, there's I was able to block out my own sort of stuff. It was he died six months after having the surgery, and his surgery was the day before his 47th birthday. So we were the same age for two months of the year. Um pretty hard. His was the seventh death in my family that I'd been bedside for, but the first where those conversations were had that we know that he didn't want to die at home. So Shane's death and my grief after that was really transformational. Uh, three months, four months later, I quit my job. I was in publishing and I went into the space of I created a business called Liminal Being. For me, it was about that transition space, the liminal, and about actually leaning into where people are at and how I support those in-between stages. A lot of dying people, we said earlier, want to have the conversation, just like Shane did. He wanted to talk late into the night with me about, you know, what his legacy was going to be for his children and how I could support him. You know, that was a question I asked. What can I do to help your kids when you're not here? What can I do? You know, what what do you want to happen to your body? Now he's a trade and a pretty practical guy. He's like, what do I care? I'll be dead. And he's pretty funny, you know. He was a he he had a huge heart. Animals were his love language and like anything, snakes and spiders, and you know, he would have lambs.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Really?

Purpose Beyond Fear And What Comes After

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Uh baby lambs in his house with ducks and cats and dogs. And, you know, he would rescue a magpie, he'd rescue a sugar glider that was abandoned. Like sometimes he would call and do a FaceTime, and he had the menage, the menagerie of animals, like all feeding, you know, and he he really had this big heart that was, you know, looking after any lost soul. Uh, and I think I love the work I do because it's meaningful in that I get to people want their loved ones' death to have meaning and have significance. And, you know, it's it's something for me that I get to say his name, I get to still bring him to life in conversations I have.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

You know, what changed for me was I didn't want my brother to die, of course not. And sometimes the grief is so bad that I feel like I'm not going to survive. But also sometimes it's just meaningful. I can have a laugh, I can have reflections of those late nights that I sat by his bed and we talked about everything and anything. And it's such a privilege to do this work, and it was a privilege that I was able to. I I don't really know what happens after, but I feel him with me. I feel that, you know, his his beautiful daughter, who's just turned 20, she says to me regularly, uh there was an article in the City Morning Herald, and then back in Victoria, the age recently, that I got asked to how how to have this conversation with your parents. And, you know, she sent me the most beautiful note, Dad would be so proud, and I'm so proud. You know, my 20-year-old niece.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

So it's really meaningful work. I feel like it's why I'm here. I don't have all the answers. I don't profess to, but I will help in any way I can. And I feel this work does help. It does improve the literacy of people by having those conversations. It does allow families to heal. And it does allow the dying person, if they have no one to talk to about their experience, someone to talk to.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I mean, I want to pick up um on Shane's story a little bit because there's a there's a particular moment in in that where it's uh sort of how you came to this, you know, that that sort of serendipitous kind of thing. Um I wonder whether you could just walk us through that story.

Practical Advice: Have The Conversation

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah, true, true. So it was the weekend that he said to me, hey Dan, what does it look like if you don't go home? And I've got like all the truth bumps just in saying that because I can picture it clear as day like it was yesterday. And I kind of was a bit startled because he's not a guy that ever asked for anything, but also I didn't, he didn't ask, you know, what does it look like if you don't go home? And I said, Oh. And I'd been there for a long weekend with my daughter and we'd driven because there was still COVID was rife. He hadn't had COVID, but he was immunocompromised. And so I drove. And also, he's quite, they're quite remote. So I didn't really, you know, you need a car. And I went, okay, yeah, I can do that. And then I went to the next room and looked at all my packing that was ready to go the next morning and went, oh my God. And said to my daughter, Are you okay if I drive you to the airport, put you on a plane and I stay? And she's like, Of course, mum, you do what you need to. And so I did. But what I'd forgotten was that I had my Regio due. And in the state of New South Wales, in Australia, you need something called a pink slip. And every year, if your car's over a certain age, which mine is, you have to take it to get checked by a mechanic that everything's okay for it to be registered and for it to be insured. And so I said yes, didn't think, didn't think twice about it actually, and then just tried to work out what how I was going to make it happen and juggle life back here. My partner kindly flew to Victoria regularly to support me and him. And, you know, we just made it work over the next few months. And then I get a text message from the government body that manages registration saying your pink slip is due. And it was two days, I think, or the next day. And I went, Oh, oh, I have to do this. And in the meantime, I had an appointment the next day with Shane and his doctor to have the conversation about voluntary assistant dying.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Oh, wow.

Paths Into Death Care Work

SPEAKER_02 35:57

And so I'm like, okay, if I can get a mechanic to do it first thing, and then I'll take him to the appointment, and then, and then, you know, and then it's all good. I started calling around. It was the day after Easter Monday, so Easter Tuesday. I'm in a tiny country town. And everyone's like, we don't do that. We don't do that. And I just exhausted like every mechanic within, you know, a half an hour radius. I called dad, I called favors, who lives, who's around here that would do this. I called a friend on the border of New South Wales and Victoria and said, if I can get my car halfway, can you come and get it? Because I need to be here. He couldn't be left alone because he was a seizure risk because of the tumor.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Oh my god.

Closing Reflections And Thank Yous

SPEAKER_02 36:38

And I said, I need to be here. Um, mum and dad were helping care for him, but they had had Easter off because my daughter and I were there. And so I was like, I don't really know how I'm gonna do this. Uh, and then the very last call I did, the guy goes, Nah, love can't help you, but try Ant's Automotive in Creswick. And I called him and he said, I do do them, but you know, it's usually a month waiting list because in Victoria, you only do a roadworthy when you're selling a car. You don't have to do it every year. So it's a big deal. So he says, just come first thing in the morning, come at eight o'clock. So I head the 45-minute drive to him, and then I turn up at his very rustic mechanic shed. And, you know, he's a burly guy that's covered in grease, and he says, Come into the office and dust off a chair, and we sit and do the paperwork. And he said, All right, um come back in about four hours.

unknown 37:35

Oh, wow.

Next Week Tease And Supporters

SPEAKER_02 37:36

And my heart stopped. I knew that I had about an hour before I'd have to be back at the farm to pick up Shane to take him to the doctors in Dalesford. So I it was down to the wire. And this was really important because Shane had talked a lot about choice and the importance that volume voluntary assisted dying meant. His language was like, you know how grandpa said, bop me on the head, that's what I want. And because my grandpa had used that funny language, and he said, if I it gets too much, that's what I want. But it was now a legal option. So I needed to make that appointment. And I just burst into tears, and the guy's just looking at me going, Are you okay? And I just tried between the snotty sobs to say, my brother's dying, and I need to get into his doctor. And, you know, nothing probably came out very coherent. But this beautiful man stopped for a moment and said, Okay, come with me. I'm gonna take you to someone that can help. I'll do my best. I'll call in the team. We've got to take your tires off, we've got to take photos, we've got to send it to the Victorian government body that will send it to the New South Wales government body. You know, it's a whole process. But I'm gonna call them in, I'm gonna get this done for you, but I'm just gonna drop you somewhere. So he drove me into town and I thought I'll just go and have a coffee. And he dropped me at Shannon's Bridge and plastered all over their uh office front is end-of-life care. And I was still in denial that Shane was gonna die. Yes, I was taking him to the appointment for voluntary assistant dying because I wanted to help him, but I was still in denial that he was gonna die. We were still fighting cancer, we were still battling, you know, that language that people use that I really, really dislike now because it's not a fair fight. It never is. It's there's no there's no even battlefield in this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

And so it really shocked me. He's dropped me at this place that says end of life care. And he goes, These people will help you and your brother. And they did. They were life changing and death changing. And, you know, I the c the the first conversation with Jeremy was a bit clunky on my part because I didn't really know why I was there. I didn't really know why we were talking about Shane dying, even though I was taking. A dying appointment. Um, it was still not congruent in my head. I hadn't reconciled that he was going to die and not anytime soon. But, you know, they embraced not just me, my whole entire family, my parents, my sister, my his kids, my daughter, and they just made it work. You know, they brought in different people to help us with everyday stuff so we could be with him in care and you know, in the dying, we could have that month off and all go away. Um, it was, you know, we have some incredible people in our lives that helped, you know, he was a single dad and a trade. So he didn't have much money. He was very um, you know, he was lucky enough to be living in my grandparents' farmhouse, but we we had to crowdfund to take that month off. Beautiful, kind friends from Dallasford lent us their Winnebago because he really wanted to travel to WA in a Winnebago. That was his dream. We didn't get to WA, but we we were able to do that. But it was all because we had those real conversations. And Claire and Derry were able to say to us, don't wait till December, and definitely don't try and go to WA because you're gonna be without care, you know.

unknown 41:16

He knew.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Wow. So lucky.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

So for the last year or so, you've you've been in this role as a death doer and um educating people in in death literacy and stuff. And you know, I think for a lot of people listening, you know, death is the big unknown, you know, as as we've been saying. And you are someone that is working in that space day in, day out, you know. And a lot of people have different beliefs about what is on the other side of that unknown. It's kind of natural for people to think about, you know, some people believe in an afterlife, um, some people don't. Um I mean, from your perspective, having worked so closely in this area, I mean, where do you sit um on that sort of belief scale?

SPEAKER_02 41:55

It's a good question. And I will say that it doesn't matter what you believe to have like whatever you believe is fine. Uh I don't know. I don't profess to know because I haven't been there. But I can't witness birth and witness death and not think there's an energy that goes somewhere or there's something bigger than what we know as us mortal humans in this, you know, human form, that the energy that drives our life and that drives uh our humanity and us being in this realm, that there's something. And you know, a lot of times when I'm talking to people about, you know, the death literacy education and you ask, it's most people put their hand up that they believe there's something, and it's quite surprising. So they will even the people that you wouldn't expect it from naturally, because you know, it might sound woo-woo or whatever, they kind of put their hand up and they're like, I believe there's something, even if you can't articulate it. And so I you know, I don't really want to dwell too much on where what happens, other than that I feel that there's something. I don't know what it is, and I don't I feel like I don't need to know. What I do know is that leaning in, as opposed to what I was doing before, um, has been very life affirming. And it has actually meant that it just dissipated. I don't have the dread, I don't have the the stuff that wakes me at 3 a.m. with oh my god, one day I'm not gonna be here. Okay, so it's you know, and it may still very occasionally, very occasionally, surface, and then I go, yeah, right, that's true. You know, I I won't be, but who knows? And it doesn't shut me down anymore. It doesn't feel like this pressure that closes my brain and my body down to not be able to function. People love to look at rituals and they love to look at how we can make legacy and make meaning, and there's so many ways that you can do that. And so I think for me, just being okay with not knowing and being okay with feeling like there's something else feels enough for me. I feel like I know why I was put on the planet, and I'm okay to have these conversations, they're not hard, they're sad, they're different things, you know, they're sad and there's tragedy, and there's you know, sudden loss is very tragic and very uh discombobulating. You know, the grief is different, there's a lot of difference, but still being able to support people and do whatever practical things you can to help in those scenarios is is purpose and passion. And I feel very lucky that I've got to this place.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

It's it's having a purpose that you know is is you know, you're that's what you're putting this out for, you know, kind of thing. That is such a powerful and um lucky place to be for a lot of people, you know, because I don't find that. And um it sounds like all of your 12 or 11 previous careers have kind of like, you know, been building up to this point, and now you've like, okay, found the right one, and then you're like, boom, I can I can be that now.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Um it's all the experience combined because they all have led me to here and they've all given me bits and pieces of, you know, not just beautiful humans that I've met along the way and and worked with, but the skills and the experience and the language and the and the acknowledgement that I don't have to have all the answers. There's no, you know, death care can be done by anyone. You don't need to be anything other than willing and open and I think kind, compassionate, and caring ticks all the boxes.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

I mean, from this chat, um, you know, sort of getting towards the the sort of final few questions here, and um people are listening to this, to your story, your experiences. What's the sort of one thing, the one piece of advice, the one message that you want people to take away from from your um from your story?

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Great question. Have the conversation with your family and your whoever it is that is going to be left behind if something were to happen to you tomorrow. Have the conversation. Do you want to be cremated? Do you want to be buried? Do you want to be acclimated? Do you want to be shot in the fire with? Do you want to have a funeral? Do you want what where are your passwords stored? You know, how can they get into your, you know, your phone with your digital legacy?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

You know, your photos. How can they shut down your social and digital accounts when you're not here to do it for yourself? You know, there's so many things we can do today. Document it, tell them where it is. If you can't have the conversation, send them an email. This is, you know, just any way that you can record what it is that you want. There's plenty of tools online now to record your digital wishes, to, you know, have it known, uh, to have legacy. What does that mean for you? Just start somewhere. You don't have to know all the answers, just start. Even if it's just getting a piece of paper and if I died tomorrow, I'd want. You know, before I die, I want. And just start there, just whatever it is with yourself. And once you've practiced enough, then you can talk to people. I mean, my daughter's constantly saying, Mom, I know, we know, you know, she will say things that she, you know, puts a little barb into see, I don't want to, I want to be buried. I don't want to be cremated. I want a natural just chuck me in the ground, allow my body to do what it needs to for the earth, and I'm happy with that. Um, you know, so she she will make jokes about it, but we talk about it regularly, and it's we have a laugh. You know, it's surprising. A lot of people find it surprising that you can bring humor to this, that it's okay to laugh about a serious topic, that there are actually lots of moments of humor. It doesn't have to be serious and it doesn't have to be formal. It can be driving the car, going for a walk.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah, it doesn't should be the it shouldn't bring the mood down. I mean, I um I I saw you doing um uh maybe a South by Southwest or something, but you guys had these amazing t-shirts, which I think sums it up perfectly, which just says talking about death is not going to kill you. And I think that is probably a great way to sort of sum up a piece of advice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:29

It is. My dear friend Kelly made them, and uh I wore that one for the day, the Monday of the talk, talking about death won't kill you. And the every day I had a different colour, and people would just flock, you know, and they would ask questions and they would say, I was at your talk, you know. It was brilliant that South by Southwest allowed us to be part of that experience. They put us, you know, on the agenda. It was amazing. I uh, you know, have there's an there's a similar saying that one of my friends says regularly too, death is like pregnancy, talking about it won't make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Perfect, love it.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

You know, it's it's one of those things that if you're not talking about it, like it's not gonna change the outcome. And similarly, like sorry, talking about it won't change the outcome, but similarly, not talking about it doesn't make us immortal, it doesn't stop the process that's gonna happen anyway. And none of us know when or how. You know, we have this death-denying culture that we've found ourselves in. And while we don't know and have those answers, it doesn't mean we can't take action today. And however that is for you, the smallest of acts can be so meaningful. And think of the people that you leave behind that don't want to have to clean up the mess while they're grieving and you know, try and make it up and work it out as they go along. You know, I didn't have to think about those things for shame. Uh it was, you know, all prepared and it was because I had this support from these externals. So now I help people do that too. And it's so important to not just document your wishes, but the people that need to know should know.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

And I guess just on that note, like anyone listening to this who kind of has kind of heard your story and going, that sounds like a career for me or something I'm interested in. What advice for you have you got for anyone? What's to follow in your footsteps?

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Uh great question. I think, you know, like understand what death care is and what where you could sit in the spectrum of supporting people who die. Uh, join the natural death advocacy network, join the good death impact network. They're beautiful, um, rich networks of like-minded people that come together regularly to not just talk about the latest of things, but also to support each other beautifully. Um, host a dying to no day event or attend one if you're not ready to host one. Uh, look at what you could do to do some upskilling for you, some research. There's so many books out there. Volunteer at a volunteer at a hospice, at a nursing home, at a palliative care unit. Uh, just research what's in your local community and then find out if there's people doing it already, how you can support them or how you can work alongside them or what it is that, you know, is your community a death literate community, or is your community really death-denying? Because I I'm not kidding, even in Sydney and the greater Sydney, there is vast differences from where people are at as to the propensity to have the conversations and the acceptance of mortality and to actually take action with what it means if they're gonna die. So, you know, is that an area that you want to passionately work in to change that dynamic in your community and be that go-to person? So I think just work out what it is that you actually feel you want to do and try it on. It's not rocket science.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Brilliant. No, Danny, thank you. So it's been really fascinating having a chat with you. I always at the end like to offer, you know, guests to to plug, um, you know, anything they'd like to sort of promote to listeners. What uh what would you like to tell people about?

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Thank you. I am on socials um under Liminal Being. So LinkedIn is a good place. I share lots of different um perspectives on death and dying. Uh, liminal being is my business for Dula work, and you know, it's why I stepped into this work to start with to look at that transition space, the liminal. So I'm very passionate about that. So and I thank you for allowing this conversation and leaning in. Thank you, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

And that's a wrap on this week's episode. A huge thanks again to Dani for trusting me and all of us with her story and for the work that she does every single day. If you take one thing from this episode, it's just to have those conversations now with your family and loved ones before it's too late. If you'd like to learn more about Dani's work or explore death literacy and end-of-life care in more depth, you'll find links to everything in the show notes or over on our website, no ordinarymonday.com. And as always, you can find extra clips and visuals from this episode all across our socials. We're on Instagram, LinkedIn, and of course the No Ordinary Monday podcast community over on Facebook, where you can join the conversation, ask questions, or share your thoughts about the show. Next week on the show, I am joined by Aldo Kane, TV adventurer, expedition leader, and former Royal Marines sniper. From leading crews, sometimes including me, inside remote caves, to navigating jungles and polar ice caps and conflict zones, often with lives depending on the decisions that he makes real time. Aldo and I first worked together on a Nat Geo series called One Strange Rock, and it was one of those shoots that we experienced something utterly insane. We were camped inside a volcano when it erupted, and Aldo had a very close call in the midst of all of this. It's not just Aldo's most extraordinary experience in the job, it's also mine, which is why I'm so excited to bring you this episode. Make sure you're following or subscribe to the show so you don't miss out. If you enjoyed today's episode, there are four simple ways that you can support the show. Number one, click five stars in this episode or whatever podcast app you're listening on. Number two, leave a short review for us. Number three, share the episode with a family friend or colleague. And number four, of course, support the show at buymeacoffee.com slash no ordinary monday. Now, as I said at the top, I wanted to give a very quick shout-out to the amazing folks who have kindly supported the show so far. So a big thanks to Ian and Susan Barron, Nick and Elise, Gary Juliff, Julie Young, and Milsey. You guys are amazing. You're helping me to keep growing the show, keeping it free of ads, and of course helping to bring you guys these amazing stories week after week. And that's it for this episode. This show is independently produced, hosted, and edited by me, Chris Barron. Thank you so much for listening. Take care, and we'll see you next Monday.