The White Island Recovery Operation (Volcanologist) - PART ONE

A phone call at 2:11 p.m. shattered a quiet Monday: Whakaari had erupted with tourists on the crater floor. From that moment, we step into a week where science, instinct, and grief collided—and where a volcanologist had to help decide whether recovery teams could return to an active volcano while families waited for news.

We sit down with Nico Fournier, the volcanologist who became the connective tissue between seismology, gas readings, deformation data, drones, and the authorities tasked with acting fast. Nico explains why small, explosive eruptions can be catastrophic at close range, how New Zealand’s volcanic alert levels guide decisions, and why the team opted to communicate conservatively when webcams went blind under ash. He also shares the most human part of the job: meeting families, opening his laptop, and translating rising underground activity into clear reasons to pause, even as the urge to bring loved ones home grew stronger.

Across two recovery operations, we follow the logistics and the stakes: Navy ships, inflatables, police specialists on breathing apparatus, fire‑service drones mapping the ground, and helicopter lifts coordinated minute by minute. Nico watched the crater from offshore with optics and infrared while a senior seismologist monitored real‑time signals—told to call the instant his gut flipped. It’s a rare window into how expert intuition, built on decades of pattern recognition, becomes a safety threshold when models can’t give hard lines.

We also reckon with what followed: reconstructing the fate of the missing through seismic signatures of overnight mudflows, and the vital role of local iwi who led blessings and supported survivors and families. The result is a candid look at decision‑making under uncertainty, risk mitigation on active volcanoes, and the ethics of when to go and when to stand down.

Stay tuned for Part Two of Nico's story. 

Links: 

https://www.gns.cri.nz/about-us/staff-search/nico-fournier/

https://www.iavceivolcano.org/

DONATE TO IAVCEI: 

https://www.iavceivolcano.org/donation-form/

Social Media: 

https://www.instagram.com/nicofournier

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nico-fournier-0130704/

https://www.instagram.com/iavcei/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/iavcei-int-assoc-of-volcanology-chemistry-of-the-earth-s-interior/posts/?feedView=all

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Transcript

The Call: Whakaari Has Erupted

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I always driving and I received a phone call. It was pretty straightforward and simple is um Fakari has erupted.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

It's just after 2 pm on December the 9th, 2019. On the North Island of New Zealand, volcanologist Nico Fournier gets a call that he hoped he'd never receive. Fakari Y Island has just erupted suddenly and violently.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

The first question that immediately hits you is basically were there people on the islands? We all knew intimately that people on the islands uh probably meant that people got hurt.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

By 5 p.m. there were no survivors left in the crater. Eight bodies remained on an active volcano, and now they needed to be recovered. The initial eruption was over, but was it safe to go back for them?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Then the activity underground started to pick up. So there could be an eruption, could be a bigger eruption.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

The recovery teams were ready, the families were waiting, so everyone then turned to Nico.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

The following days, probably the most intense days of my career. Military may be super good at what they do, but they don't necessarily understand volcanoes. My role on the day was to effectively um giving the final green light from a science point of view. The level of uncertainty was huge. Our more experienced seismologist was asking me what kind of threshold, what is your threshold there for me to call you? My best answer at the time was when it makes you sick in the stomach.

Show Setup And Guest Introduction

From French Hills To Fire: Nico’s Path

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of No Ordinary Monday. Thank you so much for joining us. I am your host, Chris Barron, and each week I invite a guest onto the show to relive their No Ordinary Monday story, an extraordinary event or experience that stands out across their entire career. We'll also discuss the path that led them there, explore what the job is really like behind the scenes, and at the end, they'll reveal the key lessons they've learned along the way. Now, before we dive in, I just wanted to take a moment to say a huge thank you to everyone out there who's left a rating or a nice review recently. I've seen them come in and it makes a huge difference. Not just to give us a boost in the algorithms, but it also gives us a lovely boost personally as well. Seeing those messages come in really means a lot to us. So if you've taken the time, thank you so much. And if you're enjoying the show but haven't yet left a review, it's just a small thing and it really helps us grow the show. Alright, so if you've been listening to the show recently, you might notice that we're on a bit of an accidental volcano run at the moment. A couple of weeks ago, we were inside an erupting crater in the Congo with expedition leader Aldo Kane. And today we are heading to another volcano, this time in New Zealand. My guest today is Nico Fornier. Nico is a volcanologist based on the North Island. His job is to monitor active volcanoes in the region, interpreting the data and helping authorities make decisions, and advise in the event of an emergency. In December 2019, Fakari, also known as Haye Island, erupted unexpectedly while tourists were on the island, for 22 people tragically lost their lives. What followed was one of the most complex, emotionally charged, and high-stakes weeks of Nico's career. This episode is a special two-parter because there is just way too much fascinating stuff to cover in just one episode. In part one, we focused on that infamous week: the eruption, the recovery operation, and the responsibility of being the person who has to say whether it's safe to send a recovery crew to an unstable volcano. In part two, we zoom out and look at the aftermath of the investigations and the wider challenge of risk mitigation around volcanoes. How do you manage danger when we still struggle to be able to predict eruptions? And what does that mean when we're not just talking about volcanoes, but super volcanoes that can wipe whole countries off the map? So settle in and get ready to find out what it takes to operate between the edge of science and instinct. You're listening to No Ordinary Monday? Let's get into the show. Nico, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today, man? I'm very good. Thanks for having me today, Chris. Pleasure, pleasure. So where in the world uh are you are you uh at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

So at the moment I'm calling in from Aotearoa, New Zealand. So Aotearoa is the Mori name, but New Zealand basically, so quite down under, basically.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And uh it's not quite a New Zealand accent, I hear there.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah, not quite. So I'm coming from slightly further north, um, more specifically from France, but I've been um traveling around the world for for for life and work in general, and um and have been living here in New Zealand for the past 16 years now, so quite a bit. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Brilliant. Well, listen, I want to start um right at the beginning. A lot of kids, probably including myself actually, and probably uh lots and lots of kids out there, love volcanoes. I mean, who doesn't love a volcano? It's like literal Mother Nature's fireworks, and they're just just a spectacle to behold. But not all kids turn it into a career um like you have. I mean, what what sort of spot? I mean, did you I mean, obviously I'm guessing you love volcanoes as a kid, but what do you remember the first time you sort of got that passion and that love for it?

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, so it it probably wasn't really a particular moment as a kid that made it, to be honest. So I grew up in central part of France, and out there we've got um tens of volcanoes, if not more, basically. So the whole landscape, um, if you're familiar with the um with uh the water Volvic, basically, um which is a which is water you can buy. I'm I'm not sponsored in any way, um but that's basically a few kilometers where I grew up. That's where Volvik was coming out as a spring. So we used to have Volvic water at home uh at the top, which was incredible because when I would uh take a bath or mum would take a bath, we'd have these huge bubbles and foam over it because it was so pure. Um but back to volcanoes, I guess the um the whole landscape had volcanoes everywhere where I grew up. So it was very much around us all the time. And also at school, it's something that we we used to talk about quite a lot. So we we would do field excursions, we would um go and visit things, we'd look at rocks, etc. But I don't think that it's really registered as a potential profession yet. I think in the subconscious it became something that was just part of who I was, I suppose, or where I grew up. And then later on, I just basically look into I love science, I got a really good um love for science and and love for the outdoors as well. So I think in high school I would do more science, and then basically in um at university, I thought, well, if I love the science and I love the outdoors and field work, um, earth sciences could probably be a good one. So that's how I got to it, basically, just getting into earth sciences, etc. But it's only after the very first year at university um I was working, so we finished the first year of undergrad, um, had a bit of a job for a couple of months basically, doing some climbing instructing and just to get a bit of money. And the aim was to go to Italy um in September, just before the next year actually started. And this is when I went to Vulcano and to Stromboli. And this is where I saw my first eruption um with my friend at the time. So I think that's probably the um if there is a watershed moment, that's probably when it clicked like, right, this is really cool, and this is maybe something I'm gonna be doing. So um that's probably where it really kind of locked the whole thing together, and then from that point onward, it was basically just a question of keep studying and specializing in volcanology as the years followed.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Amazing. So yeah, it was really that sort of again, that early sort of immersion um in in sort of volcanology and being surrounded by it every day. And then when you kind of get to university, you have, I guess, that little extra level of understanding of what you're seeing and how it works. I mean, even today, like, is that when you see a volcano, what is it? I guess just about the whole industry and the whole job that you do, what is it about volcanoes that just makes you so passionate and and so interested to study them and work out how they, you know, work and and their dangers and stuff?

Why Volcanoes And Why People

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So it's it's if you had asked me that question maybe 20 years ago, shall we say? So I I started um actively working at active volcanoes probably 25 plus years ago now. And I think for the first 10 years, I think I really came to that career for the volcanoes. And and uh what attracted me there was um just the complexity of it, um, the beauty, the power, but really the scientific complexity of those processes. Because with volcanoes, nothing is simple, everything is nonlinear, everything is complicated. And I think that I had that particular thing that really attracted me. Now, interestingly, as the years um went by, I think I came to volcanology for the volcanoes, but I think I stayed in volcanology for the people, and that's probably where I think a bit of a switch in Korea maybe kind of 50 years ago, a bit more than that now, where really it's the inklings like volcanoes are awesome as as as things, but it's also they can actually such um have such a potential, um, I mean, good potential, but also a hazardous potential around people, then that's really what keeps me going. So I think that's this kind of the two facets through time that have kind of shaped my career.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So it's like not the people as in the people you work with or the people in the volcano industry, the people as in like the general public kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, that's the one. Communities is probably a better way to talk about it. Communities and people living around volcanoes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah, because even here in Mount Murapi, I think there's thousands of people that live on the slopes, you know. Um, and it's just it we we drive up there as I said before. It's amazing that hey, I I know I understand why, because it's such fertile ground, but also you are you're taking a big risk. So I I can I appreciate you being going around here and seeing the danger, and I'm sure they appreciate the danger as well, but trying to sort of figure out how do we mitigate the risks as best as possible.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

It's a it's a big challenge, you know, and and yeah, yeah, it it is it is a challenge, and it is a um again, as as volcanoes on themselves, nothing's simple, everything is complex, but I think the relationship between volcanoes and people is the same, is is very complex. It's all always at least dual faceted, basically, where on one hand you've got uh the fertile land, um, it might be a land that even people are just simply um culturally attached to, like here in New Zealand with our Manafenua or the people of the land, even if there is no cultural um agricultural activities around those, it's just their land. Um, and on the other hand, it's basically how you manage the um, I guess, the potential risks associated with that. And there is always that tension between things, which makes it both very challenging but also very interesting from a career point of view.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Absolutely. And I I've been extremely lucky in my career that um I've kind of gotten close to volcanoes, uh at least one in particular, in a way that not a lot of people do. And it was a volcano in uh the Democratic Republic of Congo uh called Nira Gongo, which I'm sure you're you're very familiar with. Um, as a, you know, we we went there for a film shoot uh for National Geographic, and you know, we were with a volcanologist, and the plan was to go and take a you know a fresh lava sample from the lake, which is a massive, bit like massive lake, you know, several hundred meters across, I think. But when it started erupting and it became a little bit more dangerous, then you kind of switch from, oh, this is beautiful to okay, we are completely you know at the mercy of Mother Nature here, um, which really resonates. You know, we're in the gaping maw of this sort of like you know, unpredictable beast, even though we thought, oh, it's a relatively predictable one. It turned out I don't think any volcano can be sort of deemed 100% predictable at any any point in time. Um but yeah, I mean we we were we evacuated because it was getting, you know, lava bombs were were getting quite high and close to our camp and stuff. But have can you think of any experiences that you've been in where things have kind of got a little bit dicey while you're in the volcano?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah, probably probably more times than I would like to admit, I guess. Um especially um at a younger stage of my career, perhaps. Um really. I mean, what one that comes I've I've had a few, a couple of good experiences, and and they're all they're all funny in hindsight, but they're probably not um probably telling how a bit of a stupid I was at the time as well, to be honest. Um so one of them was um on a couple of them actually were on Mount Etna. So again, as a student uh trying to actually get my experience of lava flows, etc. And one in particular um was um I was basically staying at the one of the refugees quite high of the volcano, which was open at the time. And uh we knew there was a lava flow somewhere. So I was on my own, um, knew there was a lava flow coming down into one of the valleys, but the weather was all clogged up, couldn't see a thing. Basically, um woke up in the morning and they I'd be super keen. I've never seen a lava flow, super, super keen to try and find one. And um, what's quite funny with with the lava flows, especially out there, is that they they progress not too quickly at times. But what is really particular is that the the top of the lava flow, when the lava flows actually are actually flowing, are actually moving, the top cools down and then makes those kind of very brittle rocks. And then because the top of the lava flow goes faster than the bottom, what tends to happen is that the the front of the lava flow tends to roll under the front of the lava flow and then and then basically at the front there and then goes under. So what you tend to hear is all those rocks that were cooled at the surface fall at the front of the lava flow, get crushed underneath as the lava flow progresses. So you've got this interesting, very peculiar um sound of broken glass as it falls down, and then basically this crunch underneath. So I thought, sure, I I'll use my ears and and follow the sound, basically. Very smartly, I thought. Um and I and I did that for a period of time, heard that sound, uh managed to basically stop somewhere, and I knew I was around there, and I could see, I could hear that sound, and you know, there was a lot of steam, etc. But I stayed there, couldn't quite find it. And then all of a sudden the the steam opened up a little bit, and then still couldn't see much, but I could see there was some glows, etc. I said, okay, I'm I'm not too far, that's awesome. And then basically clopped back up again, couldn't get anywhere. So I decided to leave at that point in time, only to realize that my the uh the the soles of my boots had melted because effectively what I was doing not very cleverly was um staying on top of the lava flow where it had basically built a bit of a bridge, so a solid bridge. Um so I was not, of course, standing on the lava, but it was hot enough that it would actually start melting things around. So that was perhaps one of those multiple knee misses um at one of the volcanoes, basically.

What Nico Actually Does Day To Day

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Wow. My dad's a geologist, and he, you know, growing up, me and my brother were kind of forced to watch, I would say forced to watch, we enjoyed it as well. But I remember there one very clear documentary about volcanoes, and in it there's a scene where one of the volcanologists is walking over sort of a recent lava flow area, and his boot just crunches, like falls right through what looked like solid lava. And I think if there was it was still steaming, it was still hot, but there wasn't any lava flowing through it. And if it had gone through when the lava, he would have completely melted his foot off. And I'm just like, such a, such a scary environment.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah, I I think one one of the biggest one of the biggest things I've certainly observed over the years uh through that career, and and not only mine, that of colleagues as well, is that there is always, you know, you you you sometimes you push it to the edge. So the reality I should probably state is that the vast majority of the time what we do is absolutely safe. Um, you know, it's we're not risk takers, actually, quite the opposite, because we understand the risk. Um we're actually probably very risk-averse in many ways. So it's not a cowboy profession where you just go and ride leather or something like this. Um, it's quite the other way around. Um, but there is a risk sometimes uh when you you you do field work around active volcanoes and you've got a very strong um, I guess, impetus to get data, to grab samples, etc. And you push the envelope a little bit and nothing happens. You know, it gives that false sense of security. And what I've observed certainly, um, at least through a period of my career, maybe um, you know, that that unfortunate curve where you think you know more than you do, um where basically I think you you can become a little bit complacent, um, and then progressively with the years go by, etc., you realize actually, you know what, I'm gonna step out a bit and and being a bit more cautious in that.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Absolutely. So you're kind of, as I said, you've you've you've passed that sort of stage now where you're you know running into volcanoes to to do what you're doing. Fingers crossed. And you're kind of in this phase now of of like I say focused on people, you know, and and the public and and that sort of stuff. Um kind of describe how that works. You know, you're obviously you know you've got to work pretty closely between the science of volcanology as well as sort of policy and and all that kind of stuff. Like so you've got to have a knowledge of both sides. So what what is your sort of role now? How would you describe it? Are you like a diagnostician or someone like how how would you describe your your role?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

So the the role, so I guess my role is probably uh a role of connector between the connector between the science and the people using the the output of the science. That's probably one way to think about it. Uh the other way to think about it is to be an enabler whenever decisions have to be made around volcanoes, whether it's about um accessing specific areas or whether it's about evacuating people is about enabling the authorities, often it's the government or local authorities, um, that have to make the decision, to basically enabling them to make them by providing them with um with basically fact-based evidence or evidence-based um in decision-making tools. So one thing that is probably important, especially if some of some people listening here, for instance, are interested in you know what you could what do you do to become a volcanologist? One of the important things is that nearly none of the studies will actually prepare you to interact with people. So the vast majority of what you study um when you study volcanology is around volcanoes. Um is not so much around um around the risk management, etc. Now, nowadays, and I'm gonna say probably for the past 15 years, we've actually embarked on that far more. So there are some programs where you get taught that aspect as well. One aspect which is still not very much talked about is volcano monitoring on itself and basically where where you put those things together. So to answer your question about what I actually do, um so it's about being in a connector with with people, it's about being an enabler for those decisions. At the end of the day, it's very much also a um pretty much like a medical doctor, where you're basically gonna be looking at uh we monitor volcanoes like we monitor a patient. So we look at a range of symptoms from different angles, and every symptom's gonna their own specialist. So my role um as the person coordinating that volcano monitoring in the country is basically to be surrounded by people who are far smarter than I am and who know their disciplines really well. So I'm gonna have my brain surgeon, which basically looks after, say, the gas. I'm gonna be uh having my gut surgeon who's gonna be looking at the defamation and so on and so on, a seismologist, people looking at rocks, uh social scientists as well, too, in terms of how we communicate around risk, for instance. And my role is basically to understand all those languages and to basically um facilitate the discussions so that we end up um making either um collective uh suggestions, or if we can't have a consensus, is basically making ended up with uh with a decision, maybe by voting, for instance, or by eliciting experts on specific questions so that we understand as a collective what is our overall opinion, but also what is the uncertainty um around that opinion, basically. And uh and then we pass that on and connect that to people to enable to make decisions.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Amazing that that all came from sort of early on, like you say, you going to volcanoes and then rather than looking at the volcano specifically, you're also looking, hey, there's quite a large community that's here, you know, and sort of having that in the back of your mind and how that sort of nudged your career into sort of keeping the bigger picture um in your head at at all the same time, um, which I think is fascinating. And I think that leads us on to uh very nicely. On this show, I always ask guests to come on and kind of share you know one just incredible significant story from their career. And um we we chatted sort of offline before about um what that might be. And again, I think this is an incredible story um that uh that you were a part of. And I wonder if you could just take us, maybe give us a little bit of a pref a preface first about what what happened and then and then take us into how you got into it and and how that all played out.

Setting The Scene: Whakaari Context

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Sure. So I think when you asked me that question, Chris, uh one one thing that came to mind was um the um Fakade White Island eruption from 2019. So that's a small volcano that erupted in New Zealand, um, where 20 people got killed by that eruption. Um and I think the experience uh I I'm happy to talk about is basically the week that followed that eruption and and pretty much how science had um has basically inter what interacted or had has fed into um some of the uh the recovery of of of the people who were deceased and left on island, but also how we helped with the with the overall thing. So in a in a nutshell, basically Fakari um is a uh is a is a tiny submarine volcano um north from New Zealand, so a few tens of kilometers north from the north coast of the North Island, and it's only the very tip that is coming out of as a as a wee island. So the volcano is mostly underwater, but the very top is coming out of the water. And effectively it's only a couple of kilometers across. It's tiny, tiny wee bit of an island, and it also it's got a horseshoe shape, which is the crater in there. So historically, we've had um a long time ago we used to have a sulfur mine in that in that uh in that volcano, um yeah, because sulfur was used for a number of things and it was coming naturally. So I mean, living in Indonesia, you know what it is uh in in a lot of of the volcanoes there, right? People carrying sulfur, etc. Um and and then basically later on it's been um it's been mostly used as a a recreational area. So basically over the past tens, well, a few decades now, it's been used as a a tourism spot um for people to come and just experience the beauty of volcanoes uh for a few hours, basically.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And and then uh before that, how long was it a sulfur mine? For a long time.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

So the sulfur mine was uh yeah, for a few maybe a few decades, don't quote me on that. Um, but it was basically at the turn of the previous century, pretty much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

So basically, long story short, for decades, many, many decades, people have been visiting this island, and I guess relatively without major incident.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, I think I think people have visited the island in different ways as well through time. So initially you would have the um probably the devotees, as we call them here, as you know, people on ships, uh on boats will probably just land on the island and just have a look and just just admire the whole thing. Um and then later on, I guess tourism has um taken a bit more of a of a structure in some ways. So the island is is a private island, which is quite quite peculiar as well. You have your own private volcano, and um and basically tourism operations have been run for a few decades now, mostly by boat, but also by helicopters. So it's quite a it's probably fair to say that yes, tourism has happened at Fakari for quite a long time. It's only more recently that it's been more organized, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

So take us through what happened on that tragic day in uh in 2019.

The Day Of The Eruption

SPEAKER_01 24:44

So to understand what happened on the day, it might be useful just to talk very briefly about the previous weeks as well, just to give that wider context. So um so Fakari basically has been had been actually more than weeks, a few years had been erupting on and on. Um probably like in 2013-12, we had some eruptions, we had some in 2016 as well. And the volcano tends to go through phases of of increased activity, sometimes with eruptions, sometimes with without. Um, and then basically leading into 2019, um, a few a few months before the the actual eruption in December, so that was on the 9th of December 2019. In the months prior to that, we we could see with our instrumentation that the volcano was more active. So the one of the ways we communicate that it's quite a blunt tool, but it's we use a um uh a number of a number system, which is we called a volcanic adult level system. Um, it is just one tool in in the toolbox, but it's a way of telling how active the volcano is. Or if we go back to that patient's analogy, is how sick the patient actually is. So the level in New Zealand goes from zero to um to five basically. Zero, the volcano is not doing anything, super quiet. Um, one and two means a bit more restless. So, and two is more more restless. At level three, this is when we we've got eruptions, and then level four is a bigger eruption, and level five is a bigger eruption. So, Fakari, because it goes on and on like this, on and off, I would say all the time, it's always been pretty much level one in our current system. And weeks prior to the eruption, we had raised the other level two, uh, indicating that whilst we couldn't tell when an eruption um would be happening, if and if at all, um, and also how likely it would be to happen, um, basically we knew that it was it was a bit more active leading to that.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

And just quickly, I guess uh because people hear of volcanic eruption, they think big lava being thrown into the air. What kind of when when Fakari erupts, what does what's entailed, what what does that entail?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, that's a good question, Chris. So so it is um so it's quite variable through time. A volcano can have different types of eruptions, of course. But I would say over the past let's call them 20 years, um, Fakari has erupted in uh an explosive fashion. So it was not those nice lava flows. It's always, or majority of the case, it was basically more of an explosion, if you wish. And that explosion would be ejecting in the air some blocks, some boulders, would be ejecting some ash as well, and some toxic gases effectively and steam, all pretty hot. So that's probably been the main style of eruption for Fakari in the in the recent uh decades. An important point, however, is that the eruptions Fakari uh over the past decades have all been on the smaller end of things. So we're not talking about the large eruptions that people might have seen on TV, um, including Mirapi, for instance, uh in your backyard or Bromo or all the other volcanoes uh that we've seen. Um instead, those are small eruptions, but the challenge is that because the visitors were walking effectively in the crater, literally hundreds to tens of meters to where the action actually happens, it doesn't take a big eruption to affect uh dramatically the people on the island. So I think that's always been the conundrum here. Small eruptions, explosive in nature, not very big, but because of the proximity of people, it's uh it's uh it can have a dramatic impact, of course.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

And so there were people on the island, as as we mentioned, um that uh, you know, if anyone would like to know more about this, obviously it's a great Netflix documentary, um, as well as uh, you know, ABC Four Corners and a couple of good documentaries on it, um, and you can read it. But I guess you know there were people there were two groups on the island when it erupted. Um there were some survivors, obviously, there were some people that unfortunately didn't survive. Um take us through, I guess, your first, you know, what happened when you first heard about what was happening.

From Rescue To Recovery

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, so I uh it was a it was a Monday. So the the the day before is is is uh is my birthday basically. So we were basically just celebrating with uh with um with with friends. Um and the the the Monday, so it was Monday, and uh we had in the morning we actually had a meeting with um some of the some of the authorities that um have to manage volcanic risk around around other volcanoes, but also Fakari. So we finished that meeting around lunchtime pretty much. It was about an hour away from from the office in Roturua. Uh I live in Topo, which is a small island, small um town in the North Island. So we were basically finishing meetings about an hour away. And um I was on my way back, driving back, and um this is when I was driving, and I received a phone call from um from one colleagues who was supporting uh the on-call scientist. Um and basically it was pretty pretty straightforward and simple is um Fakari has erupted. So um quite immediately um the weather was good, it was summertime. So um, because we're in the southern hemisphere, um, December is is summer, and of course, in summer, this is where we've got more people visiting the island, of course. So the first question that immediately hits you is basically were there people on the island? So I asked that question, and it wasn't clear at that point in time. So um drove as quickly as I could back to the office there where uh the the team, so we had a what we call a volcano duty officer. Uh one of my colleagues who's fantastic, and he was already very much onto it, basically liaising with the authorities, had raised the adult level, had issued already bulletins to say, hey, the volcano has erupted. We don't know much more than that at this stage, but just be aware of that. Uh, and also telling the aviation sector so that planes would try to avoid the area because of the ash. And and all my colleagues were were basically on top on top of it, basically very much.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

And um they've gone from a level two, then you raise it to a three or a four?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah, so no normally we we raise it to if it's so if it's at level two, which is the last level before an eruption, um if we've got a good evidence that it was a small eruption, we would raise it perhaps to three as an example. But we decided very early on that if instead of actually agonizing over the details of was it a big eruption, was it a medium-sized eruption, etc., in terms of t-shirt size, basically small, medium, large, um, if we didn't have clear evidence that it would be a size small, uh, we would basically have a size medium and we'll basically raise it to level four until proven otherwise. So this is what we did on the day because the webcams that we had on the island had pretty much been all covered by the ash from the eruption. So quite quickly we became quite blind in terms of what was happening. And the only one we still had working was from the coast, so a few tens of kilometers away, where we had seen basically the plume from there, but then um we didn't quite have a clear idea of you know how big it could be, etc. So conservatively we say let's let's be quick here. Um and my colleagues basically let's raise it to four, let's tell everybody that something has happened, and then we'll we'll downgrade that um as soon as we can when we've got more evidence.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Wow. So you're kind of into the office straight away trying to deal with what's happening. I'm sure you know as your colleague was dealing with the authorities who were scrambling to, you know, mount rescue operations. And you know, I mean, how much information did you have from the authorities about what was going on? You you knew I guess you knew by this point that people were on the island.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Um Yeah, so we we we learned so the eruption was at um 2.11 in the afternoon. Um and basically the we we heard quite quickly through quick conversations with the authorities, with police, etc. One of the uh my other colleagues had gone to the police station in Rotrua before taking his flight back to Wellington so that he could start interacting with police as well. And basically, all of us were all relaying information from the central part so that we could make sure the message was consistent through time. And basically, but through those bits of intel, we learned uh quite quickly that there were some people on the island. So I told my my colleagues out there back at the office that's the information I just got, which of course um put a bit of a pause in the conversation because we all knew intimately that people on the on the islands uh probably meant that people got hurt.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

So you obviously have the office situation, but I guess in a situation like this where there's such a you know a very difficult crisis, there would be like a central, you know, rallying point for all the authorities, the police, the ambulances, like you know, a kind of control center, as it were. Were you kind of like going down there and you know everyone sort of turning towards you and go, Hey, Mr. Volcanologist, Mr. Volcano Export, what what do we do, what what do we do kind of thing?

Facing Families And Explaining Risk

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, absolutely. So the the first few hours um usually for those uh any kind of response, to be honest. Um the they tend the response tend to be quite distributed, I would say, just because you don't have the luxury of the time to all back and go into a single place before actually acting. So the Rick Fles tasking is already built into agency response plans, basically. So you operate in a distributed fashion. But then as soon as you've got the opportunity, you try to actually bring people together for that. So for me, that was um after the first few hours on the day. Um, and we knew by by 5 p.m., so that was less than three hours after the eruption, that there weren't any um any survivors left on the island. So people had been evacuated, some of them survived, some of them died, unfortunately, and we knew that there were um some uh deceased, unfortunately, who had remained on island. Um, for a number of reasons, it was decided the volcano at the time was still um still mightily erupting. There was still stuff coming on. Uh the level of uncertainty was huge. So at the time it was decided by the authorities that they would pause on the rescue operations um because they were they want anybody left alive on the island. So it became a recovery operation for which the um I guess the um the risk threshold and risk appetite is is a bit lower because you don't have any lives to save. So it's um it's um it's a massive conundrum because the the first thing you want to do is absolutely get to get those people back to their families and to their loved ones. And on the other hand, you have to wait to risk between uh between the risk of the taken by the uh the people going on the island. So not an easy task at all by police and whomever was the making decision there.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

I mean it is I I think it's worth mentioning just very briefly. So there were some very heroic efforts by you know the local tour groups and uh helicopter companies that acted very quickly, you know, in response to what was going on and undoubtedly saved lives in the process. Um, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So some people came back, um, so some tour operators came back with uh with helicopters, indeed with the boats as well, um, immediately when they heard that um an eruption had occurred. And those guys basically didn't um agonize over their own safety at the time, they just did what they felt was the right thing. And they are they are they ought to be absolutely applauded for for the the carriage there. Uh and they they did save life by by doing this. They did.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And I guess at that point, once you've kind of in that situation, I were you, I guess your job, your role in the grand scheme of things was kind of like the point person for all of the different authorities kind of figuring out what was going on. Is that right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah. So basically when we when we essentially finished a few hours of response, which were, I guess, reflex tasking and uh, I guess kind of remotely done where we were interacting there, we got into a phase from the following morning at dawn, basically, of trying to actually consolidate that effort into a single operation. So this is where um my role became more prominent as the the main single point of of contact and advisor for the local authorities. Uh, we also had some of my colleagues who were um at the back in Wellington, where we've got our own government. So we were able to also have people feeding information um to the central government, but for the for the local operation, I was the uh I guess the the representant of of our team um out there and the main advisor. So back to your question as to what happens when you first walk into that room in the morning. Um, yeah, basically big silence, people turn around and and ask, so is it safe to go? And that's the question you have to try to unpack, basically. And that's what we did over the yeah, that's right. Yeah, and is it safe to go? Can we go back to the island? And that's essentially the what we what we did over the the the the following days with with a team. It's by no means just one person, me, it's basically a team of of of God knows how many um of of scientists, of um, of authorities, of everybody who's who's been working really closely together to come up with with a plan, basically.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

And those and those people, I think it was eight people left on the island who had had sort of died during the the event. I mean, there was were the families there, you know, were you speaking to them? Were they pressuring you to go there and and retrieve those bodies as soon as possible?

Planning A Recovery On An Active Volcano

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, so I I think um so I talked to some of the families there, um to the families of of uh of Aiden, who was one of the guides there, and and got to to form to form a um uh a wonderful relationship with with with his mum and uh and uh and and and some of his families as well. Um on the day, basically one of the things I had to do effectively was to um to talk to to some of the families to say, hey, this is this is the reason why um collectively at the moment we feel we cannot just go back to the island. And this is a very difficult conversation to have because the last thing you want is basically prevent people from having the loved ones uh coming back. So the the way we went about it was just sitting together. Um I had my laptop on my on my knees, uh going through data, but without necessarily geek geeking out on the data, it was not the point. Um, it was very much around being able to illustrate in a few points that you know um everybody could uh could could relate to why that was. And one of the things was that although the volcano had erupted the day before, so but like typically on the Monday, um the the activity we were recording underground with our seismometers and all our instruments was showing that at first it was pretty quiet initially, and then the activity underground started to pick up. So that was the biggest challenge, is that all those plans we had to come up with and all those decisions we had to make as to whether or not um we could get a team back on Ireland to recover those deceased people was done at a time where everything was indicated that the activity was increasing underground. So there could be an eruption, could be a bigger eruption, etc. So what I will say is that the as um yeah, uncomfortable, has um heartbreaking those conversations were, I will say that I was absolutely amazed by how by the humanity that I had in front of me with with the families of the people who were missing. Um and you know, when they when they nod their head and say, yeah, okay, we we we understand. We may not agree with it because of course um you know that's not what you want, but we we understand why this is not happening right now. Um I I yeah, I can't express how impressed I am by by people being able to do that, just going beyond their own grief and and and and um yeah, and and basically yet have rational conversations and um and being understanding.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

I I I can't, I mean that's usually a job for like, I don't know, a police commissioner or like someone, you know, like the local mayor or or something like that. But the fact that it fell on your shoulders to come and explain to these people what was going on, you know, was that something you volunteered for or someone sort of decided you were the best person to do it?

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yeah, I think the way it worked at the time was I was um I was asked by police whether I could explain things. And I think in that particular case, um the because I was the I I was probably the best person in that area to be able to explain the data, I guess. So I think it came from from that place. Um for me, what probably helped in many ways is that outside of volcanology, I also have other passions which relate to um mountain rescue, um, which I've done for for a few decades and where I'm used to those conversations as well with people, unfortunately, when we've got some some accidents in the mountains. Likewise, um more recently been working as a uh as a as an ambulance um officer, basically. So all those things bring the medical side of things, but also the I guess the uh the patient liaison and the and the family liaison with when someone passes, uh, etc. is something that I was um you never are comfortable with it, or certainly I don't feel I will ever be, but certainly it's something that I felt um I had been through a few times in different circumstances. It was a different conversation, but it it felt it just felt the right thing to do, to be honest. So you just uh step up and just go with it.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

They're amazingly lucky to have someone who obviously understands the science, but also you know has the experience to to deal with these kinds of you know traumatic, um uh tragic situations as well. Um so I I guess from that point onwards, you know, you'd explain to the families look, you can see from the data, we're not going to risk more lives by sending people there right now to recover um the deceased. But there was still a pressure to go back there. It's not like we can leave them for months on end until you know the volcano is in a quote unquote quiet phase. What happened over the next kind of couple of days, next few days?

Operation One: Boats, Drones, And Eyes On

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah, so the the pressure you're talking about is is coming both from the desire from the families to to get their loved ones back. Um it is it was also contextual. So in in New Zealand, uh and for me that was one of the big learnings from that experience as well, is that everything is contextual. Uh, all context is everything. And uh so for the wider context before that eruption, a few years prior, we had a mining incident called the or accident called called the the Pike River um disaster, where um there was a mining incident in the in the South Islands, and some miners got killed and buried, and the bodies were basically not retrieved um for a number of reasons. So, one of the first things that um I got told when I walked into that room on day two basically was very much this is another expletive um Pike River uh disaster where we cannot let people down. We have to actually go and and get those people back. So I think that was probably why there was also that added level of of scrutiny and added level of of uh of incentive to to get the people back. So basically, the uh what happened over the following days was uh I mean there were multiple facets, but the big picture is that we had to understand how safe or how unsafe is probably a better way to put it. It was to potentially send um teams on the islands to recover those bodies. It was to um come up with a plan of action uh in terms of how that would be happening, and it was to provide some form of recommendation of PPE, um tactical operations, etc. And then on the day, it was basically to so basically doing a risk assessment as well. And on the day, very much um participating to the operations from um either a boat or from a helicopter on the second one, to basically being what is called the guardian angel in in the New Zealand system, which is basically a subject matter expert um that would be around to say, hey, um military may be super good at what they do, but they not don't necessarily understand volcanoes. So the subject matter expert is going to be a volcanologist who will be able to provide some more informed uh opinion in terms of what's happening on the ground. So one of the things I had to do was basically uh effectively um giving the final green light from a from a science point of view, and then basically um effectively being the person um to pull the plug on the on the operations while people on were on the island um for the recovery operations in case uh something was happening, basically. So yeah, so that was one of the facets of things we had to do.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

So did that mean as that guardian angel with the power to pull the plug if you needed to, were you out, you know, on a boat near the island, you know, you know, looking at stuff, assessing stuff with your own eyes? What what happened then?

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah, so the um I guess leading to that, we had to come up with a bit of a plan. Um so the on the so we had two recovery operations. The first one, so the eruption was on a Monday, and then all the risk assessment, the planning, and I can I can dive into that a bit more if you want later, um, were in the following days between Tuesday, effectively, and Thursday. So basically three in very intense days, probably the most intense days of of my career.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Because this has never happened before. You know, there was no precedent for this, and there was no, you know, rule book or guidebook, and you guys had to write it.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Yeah, pretty much so. I mean, there have been some um reflexed uh reflex rescues around volcanoes. One comes to mind in Galeras uh in uh in um in Colombia where uh there was an eruption with volcanologists actually who were who were um in involved and and and injured or killed, and uh and there were some um some like rescues by the people who were around, but coming up with actually an organized way to go about it, uh yeah, as you say, there is no manual and we pretty much had to write it. So the um the the the plan there was uh the planning phase was for the three days following the eruption, and then basically we had two recovery operations. One was on the Friday, the first one, and then the second one was on the Sunday, effectively, so so two days later. Um for those two operations. Um, my role on the day was to basically the first one was being based on one of the boats with effectively eyes on the volcano at all times throughout the day, and um using some of the military technology they had around infrared, etc., and and some pretty powerful optics as well, trying to actually understand what was happening at the at the crater itself, whether the volcano was erupting, whether anything was changing. And at the same time, um had basically a team of people back at the office who were uh looking at the data in real time and feeding me information about things that um that would be um might or might not happen, uh whether the activity was changing, etc. And our more experienced um volcano seismologist who was basically um his role was to alert me if something was uh wasn't towards. And um I remember quite vividly that conversation we had the night before where first and foremost, um I told him, hey, I I need the the most and experienced person we've got for that, and that person is you is would you would you agree to do that? Uh and and amazingly he said yes without even skipping a bit, basically. It was just absolutely amazing. And the other thing was, well, he was asking me what kind of threshold, what is your threshold there for me to call you? And my best answer at the time was when it makes you sick in the stomach. That's a trick. Yeah, that was pretty much it. And I think what I was trying to say at that point in time, and I didn't have to to um to explain more than that, I think he meant exactly what I what I well he's sorry, he understood exactly what I meant at the time, yeah, or totally ignore my my my my what I was saying as well. I don't know. But the the I think I think it's about trying to it it is basically putting those decades of experience into into basically pretty much going with your your intuition effectively.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

When you start feeling this is too much. So it was literally there is no like scientific red line. It's just like when you feel this is too much, you call me.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yeah, that's right. And and it was fed by the science. So it was it was by no mean esoteric whatsoever. It was really fed by those decades of experience, but literally distilling it to a point where you feel there is something the hair raising at the back of uh of your neck, uh stomach is not feeling right. This is where I want you to call me, basically.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

That's incredible. So you said there's two rescue operations, and were you on out there for both of them in the field?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

And yes, I was out there on both, basically. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah. And so you were there, eyes on, phone at the ready in case you know your colleague was going to call you. And then this I think it was the New Zealand army that was um that was actually on the ground. And you guys would have gone out by presumably boat or aircraft to to do the recovery?

Thresholds, Instinct, And Pulling The Plug

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah, so it was uh I mean it's it's it was a phenomenal effort, to be honest, uh, and probably one of the most amazing um operations I've ever witnessed or I've ever ever been part of. So um it was a mixture of New Zealand Defense Force, of police, um, experts from of uh fire and emergency um services, um, basically a mixture of everything. So we used drones from our fire services who have got excellent capabilities. So we used that first to actually locate where the people were on the island so that we could actually um understand exactly where they were. And this is where there is also an interesting development later where we knew there were eight people on the island, but we could only five six. And there is a backstory there at the end as well, um, of why we think we couldn't find those two people. But we had we had basically drones from fence, from fire and uh and emergency username. We had um a navy, um, we had police from um from um basically explosive ordnance surveys as well. So one of the biggies is that we were getting we needed people to go on the island um or teams to go on the island who would be able to use um effectively um like fully autonomous respiratory um apparatus, basically. And there aren't that many, many teams that are actually trained for that. So we had people that were trained already and who were able to operate in those up in those conditions. So the the the broad plan, if you wish, for the certainly the first operation was that we were based out of a boat which was of a navy boat, which was off of the the island a little bit, and then basically we deployed people on the team uh on on the island, basically using uh using uh inflatable um boats, basically. So yeah, and and the intent was for those guys went to the island there, uh fully geared up, um, and coming up with a plan and the whole thing was was yet another experience. I can talk about it as well. But basically, in a nutshell, the the the overview is that those teams went on the island, um, identified the the deceased bodies, the persons, and basically, because you have to make sure you also uh do due diligence to the identification, you can't just rush grab, you have to actually do an absolute minimum of of identification and due diligence to the process and respectfully as well, right? Um and then basically the intent was to for those guys to basically group the bodies in in um in a few in a few areas around the island, and then those got picked up by helicopter and brought back on the ship afterwards, and then the people basically were the teams then basically um default back to uh um basically back to the ship through through the small boats as well. Um at the same time we had a big boat, we also had a few um a few smaller boats that were located closer to the island in safe areas uh or kind of sheltered areas where if something was going terribly wrong on the island for anybody, um they could basically have some rescue of the risk of the recoverers, basically.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Okay, great, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just have this, you were mentioning the navy boats there, and um I just have this image of you with a bunch of like you know hardened sailors, and I don't know about you, but I'm not great on um rough seas. What how did you how did you cope? Trying to do a really difficult job, but uh on the boat as well.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Well, there is a very good reason, Chris, why I I stick to mountaineering and alpinism. Um is that basically I'm really not a sea person. I mean, I've I've done a bit of sailing and uh and a lot diving, but um I'm certainly not boat worthy. That's probably um an understatement. So um, and it's probably even worse whenever we actually stop the boat. And uh and if you if you add that to lack of sleep, to basically having to walk through to actually look at through quite heavy um heavy-duty binoculars throughout the day, uh, etc. That did that hit my head in really quickly. So the whole day was spent um literally with eyes on what was happening and and vomiting abundantly, basically at the same time. Um difficult, but um at the same time, you uh you you you have a really clear, like everything in life, if you've got a really clear vision of what you're trying to achieve, uh you just go over those things, basically, just keep doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Wow, amazing. And there was no sort of like back of your mind, like actually, I'll just stand on the jetty, just put me on the jetty of the island, I'll look at it from there.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

No, sorry. I mean the uh we we we we had a lot of conversation as to whether or not it was best for me to be based on the boat or on the island. Uh for a number of reasons, being on the island was wasn't really the decision that was made. Um, probably too close to the action um and not adding any benefit, to be honest. Um and and then also basically um I think it was um um possibly a way to test my stomach as well for some for some very um very unknown reason.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Um so the the the recovery events there's two of them, and I guess both were kind of similar in how they were executed to a certain degree.

Operation Two: The Missing And The Mudflows

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Broadly broadly speaking, so the um the the overview, if you wish, of the the first one, the intent for the first recovery operation, well the intent was to have only one and to actually recover all the eight people who were left on the island on the first operation. Um but this is this is when we only found six of them, and two were not to be found anywhere. So this is the purpose of the second recovery operation on the Sunday, so two days later, was to try and find those two people that we couldn't find on day one. And um in in a nutshell, basically, what if I once we've reconstructed, I'll give you the short version, but once we reconstructed what we felt happened on the island on the day of the eruption, is that the eruption occurred in the afternoon. Um people got killed on pretty much on the spot there. So people who were killed on the island and left on the island were were quite close to to the crater. And um we knew that two of those um unfortunate people were in um in small galleys, basically. That was so we've got some dry riverbeds, if you wish, on the islands, yeah, or some with a bit of hot springs coming down and a bit of hot water coming down, but that we knew that the two of them at least were were in such galleys. What we realized later on by doing some detective work was that that night following the eruption, quite a um what I tend to call a weather bomb, which is absolutely not a meteorological term, but then my my colleagues there will hate me for that. But basically, like a very condensed um period of very heavy rain occurred and very localized and occurred on the island. And what we think happened at the time is we actually recorded on our seismometers, which were still operating at the time, a bit of a weird signal that we've seen elsewhere and that we know had been associated with mud flows. So, what we reconstructed at the time is that the night following the eruption, we had a lot of heavy rain for a short period of time that they produced, they caused some mud flows, and those mud flows went into the gullies and in basically carried out the those two bodies basically out to sea. So one of them was briefly glimpsed at um on the I think when on the first recovery operation or even on the days actually following the eruption, but it was a little bit unclear still in terms of what was happening there. Um so the purpose for the um for the the second recovery operation was really to see whether or not um as they were carried um to the sea, whether or not there was any chance at all that they had been buried in the stream rather than carried out all the way to sea. So the they basically we had a team of of police experts there who came with with probes effectively, and they basically probed that um particular stream all the way just to make sure literally no stone was left unturned, that we were not leaving anybody who could be could be could be found. And uh and the result of that second recovery operation was that we couldn't find those two people, and then that's the only logical um and likely conclusion was that they had been basically washed to see, unfortunately, and and and never to be seen. So the the interesting thing there is that the um the uh the the two people who could not um could not be found were Hayden, who was um a guide, uh a well-loved um affable um guide out there who's got a huge amount of experience and love for the area. And uh the second person was um a younger, a younger lady uh from the uh from the uh a visitor, basically. And so there is a bit of a um, I guess, a thought that um he's taking care of her out there and the uh he's been the kaitiaki and what the the guardian basically, and he's just taking care of her while while while they are there. So she's she's not alone, they're not alone. Um, but they had they've been watched at sea, and we haven't been able to recover them, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

I think that was one of the things I picked up from the document, Netflix documentary, is they um they interviewed the local um Maori leader, and he was talking about how you know in in Maori legend the role of um Fakari as as a you know as a god or a goddess and and how you know now they're under you know their goddess's protection and all this kind of stuff. So it's it's nice to have the Maori sort of perspective on that as well.

Culture, Community, And Healing

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's um you know the the the local Iwi, so local Maori tribe was involved very early on um in terms of um of um of also trying to make sure that whatever was done in terms of the recovery operation was done in a respectful way from a um from a cultural standpoint for all involved. So we had um we had um basically elders um uh come out to us basically going with the boats before that to do a blessing of the island before the recovery operations went, etc. So it was quite an emotionally powerful um week as well, even from that point of view, where everybody was trying to do their bit from a different angle and um and uh and also in the healing afterwards. So I think one of the things that often is is missed perhaps um when when that event is is seen from overseas is the uh the role of the communities, of the of the local communities to help um the survivors, to help the um the families of the deceased or the families of those who were affected. And same for the local Iwi. Uh they've been absolutely phenomenal in terms of providing some support and uh um emotional support, etc. And every year we've had uh some ceremonies basically um just acknowledging the uh the event. Um and um last year was the five year of the of the of the fifth anniversary of of the eruption, where we had people coming from overseas to um just to pause, to reflect, to acknowledge that. And the Iwi um hosted us basically in that event, and it was just uh just a privilege basically to be part of of such a powerful moment.

Closing And What Comes Next

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

And that's a wrap on part one of my conversation with Nico Fournier. A huge thanks to Nico again for his honesty and his insights in walking us through what was, in his words, probably one of the most intense days of his career. And as always, a big thanks to all of you as well for listening and watching. If you'd like to learn more about Nico's work or anything that we've discussed in today's episode, you'll find the links in the show notes and over on the website, no ordinary monday.com. And you can also find full video versions of these episodes on YouTube. And we also post regularly on our socials, across Instagram, LinkedIn, and on the No Ordinary Monday podcast community over on Facebook. Comment say hello. Next week, the story takes a different turn. What happens after the hour settles? Who is held accountable? We'll explore the investigations that followed and the uncomfortable reality of making decisions in a world where certainty doesn't exist. And then we zoom out to the much bigger question. If predicting one volcano is this hard, what does it mean for the ones capable of changing the planet? So make sure you're following the show so you don't miss out. If you enjoyed today's episode, there are four simple ways that you can support us. Number one, follow or subscribe on your podcast app. Number two, leave a rating or review. Number three, share the episode with a friend, a family member, or maybe a colleague. And then number four, support the show at buymeacoffee.com slash no ordinary monday. Any one of these things helps us keep the show independent, advert-free, and allows me to keep bringing you thoughtful, story-driven conversations week after week. And that's it for this episode. This podcast is independently produced, hosted, and edited by me, Chris Barron. Thank you so much for listening. Take care, and we'll see you next Monday.