Doing everything with thought and intention - Katie Steere

If every guest I host on the podcast puts as much thought and intention into everything they do as Katie, our food system would change overnight.

Wild Earth Farm - Grass-Fed Vermont

Katie mentions her time interning at Polyface - Polyface Farms Virginia Premium Grass-Fed Meats - Polyface Farm

Tune in next week for more incredible guests from around the world!

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:00

Happy Tuesday everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Global Stewardship Podcast. This podcast highlights land keepers around the globe who are caring for the earth and stewarding land food community in impactful ways. And I believe our guest today is one of the very best examples out there. Katie Steer is one of the farmers at Wild Earth Farm in Vermont. And if there's anybody I could host to convince you that farming can truly heal the planet, I think it's her. I know her story will inspire you, And I'm so honored that she's here today to share her insights with conscious consumers and farmers. First of all, your vegan to land steward story is beyond impactful. I think about you. All the time, and just think about how drastic your perspective change was. Could you just enlighten listeners about your journey? You were a vegan banker, right? Yeah. And then now you're living and working full-time on the land. Yes. Yeah. So in college, um, I read a book, and I won't even say the name of it'cause I don't want anyone to know about this book. But if the book, the messaging of the book was basically, if you wanna be skinny and cool and a good person, you should be a vegan. Mm-hmm. And if you're not a vegan, you're a terrible person. And, I was a freshman in college at the time and I had just moved away from home for the first time. So I was into a city, and I grew up on a farm, so I was just kind of. I think looking for a place to belong there at college. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I decided to become a vegan and like most people when I, I just switched cold Turkey so I experienced a lot of cleansing, so I really did feel really good for the first couple of months. Right. And after that it was just almost five years of I was just on my pedestal and it sort of just gave me an identity, I think, at that young time in my life. And, yeah, by the end of the five years, my, I mean, I'm still recovering from tooth problems a decade after starting to eat meat again. Wow. Um, I was depressed. My spine was degenerating, my hair was falling out. My hairdresser that I had had my whole life thought that I had cancer because Oh gosh. Yeah, I remember you saying that. Yeah. Yeah. So then fast forward, I was living in California towards the end and I went to a doctor for the first time and he did a bunch of blood tests and he basically said, look, you need to start eating meat again, or you're gonna be in really big trouble. Wow. and so I started eating chicken breasts from Whole Foods, which looking back, I'm like, that's probably the, the one of the worst choices I could have made for clean, funny, what I thought was clean meat. But, um, yeah, and that sort of led me to, um, joining a vegetable CSA and then volunteering on a vegetable farm. And then, just realizing in the Bay Area how disconnected I was from everything. And then I was only consuming and not producing anything and it just didn't feel good. So I started thinking about my life and what I wanted to do, and I realized that everything I cared about centered around food and health and, like the giant food corporations that I think are doing really big damage to the health of our country in so many ways. Mm-hmm. And that all led me to farming. Wow. Yeah, I have heard so many stories of people who switched to a vegan or vegetarian diet and immediately started feeling so good. And probably just because it was just a focus on whole foods and fresher foods. And so people think that, like, that's where the drastic change comes from. But then slowly over time people start feeling really, really, really bad. And I've never been formally vegan or vegetarian any point in my life, but I definitely was like super vegetable heavy and, just had been told that that was, that was the best diet for me. And as soon as I started like implementing steak into my diet and just more meat, my hair has grown so long and come back so thick. And my cavity problem has basically healed itself. So I can resonate with that even though I obviously haven't had the same journey that you have. Could you share with people how you ended up in Vermont that whole story you were in Rhode Island, right? Yeah, I was in Rhode Island. I actually grew up on a farm in Rhode Island that's been in my family for seven generations. And, it went out of business in the seventies before I was born. It was a dairy farm and, it just, didn't have a plan for the future and I would spend a lot of time living in California worrying about it. And so, one of the big reasons that I also started farming was'cause I wanted to revive my family's farm. And I had read a bunch of Joel ton's books and the way he talked about his family's farm was how I felt about my family's farm. Mm-hmm. So I ended up interning at Polyface and that was such, I mean, they really throw you in there. Yeah. I feel like if I had interned anywhere else, I wouldn't have been ready as ready to start my own farm. But I arrived home and it was like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna get 200 laying hens and 15 pigs. Yeah. And 20 cows. And that feels so much smaller than everything that we, we were doing at Polyface. Yeah. You're like, I'm gonna start small. Yeah. And meanwhile people were like, what? You're, you're insane. I can't like doing this. Yeah. I think I started with like 30 meat chickens. Yeah. That's funny. Um, and it just didn't work out with my family. That's a whole nother story, but, basically four years into farming there, the farm went to my brother. He was not a farmer. Yes. And that was a really painful experience. Um, and then I moved to lease land and I farmed there for two years. And at that point, I mean, my business had grown to almost$200,000 in sales and I was basically doing it all by myself still. Right. and so I was so burned out, like my nervous system was completely fried and I was exhausted. And, I had just met my now husband and through a series of events, decided, okay, I need to quit farming for now because I was on two properties at that point and I was just building fences on other people's land and improving like everything I earned from the farm. Went back into other people's land. So I felt like I had just like nothing to show for all the work that I was doing. and the universe basically said no. The day, the day after I told my landlords I wasn't coming back the next year, we found this farm in Vermont, even though we weren't really looking and it had everything on our Someday Farm Dream list, right? And the owners were taking applications and interviewing people and, um, we actually paid$50,000 less than it was appraised for in 2021, which is just completely unheard of. They, they had gotten multiple cash offers for hundreds of thousands of dollars, more than they listed it for. So yeah, five months after Ben and I's first date, we committed to buying this farm in Vermont. I kind of, I met you right in the midst of that, that story and you were kind of talking about like, it seems like people are putting in more money than we are, but I wrote them a really nice letter. Yeah. I mean that was so inspiring. I've actually been thinking about you a lot lately because we've been down a very similar path where I've only been on borrowed and leased land, a lot of it being my family's property. And about a year ago, basically told us that uh, my stepbrother was gonna move in, who doesn't farm? And I just had like, I mean, months of panic attacks about it, basically just so confused.'cause I felt like God was really telling me that this was the place that I was gonna farm forever, somehow. And. I have chills. It was like going, it was just such a rocky time and I felt so confused'cause I felt so called to be here. And um, long story short, we've worked it out where we've basically convinced my sibling that he doesn't want the responsibility of this land. So we're right now, trying to. Agree on buying it somehow, but I just was constantly looking back at your story thinking like, well, if this doesn't work out, something's gonna fall into place. Like this is what I'm meant to do. So obviously that story is still developing, but yeah, I've just been thinking about you a lot in that whole story and, just how beautiful it is that you guys have ended up where you have and have this amazing piece of property that I'm so excited to be visiting this year and we'll have to share pictures with everyone. But just watching your whole story unfold and now seeing you just absolutely thriving in this place that you can call your own is really exciting. Coming from knowing you before you had that opportunity is really cool. Thank you. Yeah. It's been, yeah, we moved here and like, not only is our farm amazing, but it's like we both got the families. We never really had here. Like yeah, all these people that are, that would be our parents age have sort of just adopted us and we have this amazing community where everyone really takes care of each other. And so yeah, I do really feel like it was a gift from the universe or God, like mm-hmm. Just brought us here for that. Yeah. Yeah. I really wanted to talk about that your stories of the community that you have in Vermont is so inspirational. Um, it just pushes me to foster deeper connections and interpersonal relationships where I live. I mean, truly, I actually think that looking to what you've experienced there is the only reason I do what I do in my community here. So I would just love for you to share what you've fallen in love with up there and just how you're able to thrive in that farm centered community yeah. I can give you one really special example. This past weekend we had our baby shower and instead of having a baby shower, we had a farm nesting work party. And so we had, about 35 people here and did three hours of work together to get the farm ready for our baby. Well, I guess to get the farm ready for us to have time to spend when with our baby, when the baby is born. And the whole morning I just kept looking around. I'd say like 25 of the people are people that we've met since we moved here just in the last three years. Yeah. And we like got a new shed sided, somebody trimmed windows inside our yurt. We have a yurt that we Airbnb our yurt bathroom building. Somebody drywalled a a wall in our house. Oh, wow. And we did our garden into shape, like trash piles that were here when we moved, got picked up and put in the dumpster. And it was, and and the thing is, is that when everyone left, they hugged me and said, I'm gonna cry. Thank you so much for including me in this event. Oh wow. That's amazing. So amazing. Like, thank me. Thank you. But I feel like this place, this kind of town where we live, it lets people be a part of something that doesn't really exist in many places. Yeah. Um, like when we moved up here, we got invited to a party before we even moved, and then that person was at our house the next day helping with his tractor and post pounder helping us build fences. And there are people I have can and have called at 6:00 AM to say my dairy cow has milk fever and she's falling over and you know, five minutes later he's there with an IV and saving my cow for me. That's amazing. Yeah. And it's almost like now when I moved here, I felt so bad asking for help, but now that we are also asked for help mm-hmm. Nothing makes me feel like I belong. Hear more than when somebody calls us and asks for help. Yeah. And, really special. Yeah. One of our neighbors, he calls it neighboring because mm-hmm. It's a verb. It's like, it's not something that you can just come and, you know, there's, there's an amazing community and you're in it, you really have to participate. Yeah. And sometimes that means Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Like going to things when you're too tired or Yes, definitely giving support when you don't really feel like it. And'cause I, yeah, there's sort of this, I don't know, culture online, that's like boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And I think boundaries are super important. And also they can isolate you if you go too far with them. Yeah. Not even just boundaries. I see just so many people, like in our local moms groups and stuff, everybody's like, I'm so lonely, I have no friends. And people always ask like, when was the last time you got out and really made, like, got comfortable being uncomfortable Yeah. At an event or something. And I'm so guilty of that'cause I'm super introverted. But it's you, you have, you can only reap the rewards somehow and Yeah. You have to put in that legwork. Yeah. We, when we first moved here, we had this amazing rhubarb patch and I have this delicious rhubarb cake recipe and I just started making rhubarb cakes and bringing them to our neighbor's houses and Yeah. Getting to know them. That's beautiful. And it's almost like a lost art form in so many places. Totally. Yeah. Some people lived for thousands of years. Forever. Yeah. Yeah. And they, I feel like, I mean, you can almost sense. The hunger for it. Mm-hmm. If you just sit, sit with it for a while. Like on a planetary and societal level. Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are, people are deeply craving that community and just don't know how to start that bake a cake. Bake a cake. Seriously. Yes. I've seen some videos of you guys joining, it literally looks like a kumbaya circle, but playing music and I mean, it just seems like you are always doing things in your community. Maybe not always, but just things that people don't experience anymore and just looks so beautiful. We, we actually are always doing things like that. Oh, good. And it's so special and yeah, I, I very often, I don't know, once a week have moments where I just think about, I'll be sitting at an event like that, you know, just like listening to music with everyone around and there's twinkly lights and I think back to like the moment I found out that my brother got the farm and just that rock bottom of my life where I was so sad and lonely and just how amazing it is that I'm, experiencing the magic in that moment. That's so exciting for you and it's so clear that you were meant to be exactly where you are now totally. Even though you had to persevere through that journey, like, wow. So, so cool. I really, it's like your, your suffering becomes your medicine if you let it always, I think. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. a lot of this leads me into your people would call it slow living, but you recently got horses. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and kind of your stewardship philosophy around slowness? So maybe like a year and a half ago I was taking a poetry class and my poetry teacher was talking about unlimited abundance and how when she goes on vacation, she doesn't even pack a suitcase. She just buys everything she needs there. And, something about that just didn't really sit right with me because I want to believe in unlimited abundance. And the way she was talking about it was in like a very, kind of a way that's really exploits the earth and takes too many resources Right way over consumption. Yeah. So I, was spending a lot of time thinking about that. And I finally, it was like this little switch in my head mm-hmm. Flipped. And I was like, oh, the sheep are always growing wool from grass and the earth is always giving us grass during the growing season. Like it just grows and grows and grows and the animals have to eat it. And it just keeps growing. And the same with sunlight. And so I started thinking about. Well, what does the earth want to give us versus what can we take from the earth? Mm-hmm. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And so on our farm we live in Vermont where the grass just only six months of the year, but it just grows like crazy. And so we turn that into beef and lamb and wool, and which then can also be turned into our wool dish, sponges and T bomb and soap and just so many useful things that could replace plastic. And then that led me further into if humans wanna be living for thousands of more years, can we really be driving these diesel tractors that only. Maybe, you know, the old ones last for a long time, but I highly doubt any tractors that are built today are gonna be around in 80 years. Oh yeah. No way. We were just talking about that yesterday. Yeah. And now, like, people are making things now to need a replacement as soon as possible. Yeah. And then if you think about generations of humans, like 80 years is such a short time period in the history of the earth. so we're kind of like, okay, well what is really sustainable on a farm? And also we're working too much like in our current, the way our farm is currently set up, right. So we've just, we've been exploring what is really sustainable financially. I hate, I kind of hate the word environment, but like in terms of the earth mm-hmm. And quality of life for people raising food. and that led me to be curious about horses. Yeah. I'm also a lifelong horse girl, so, because they can, reproduce on their own, they can harvest their own food in the summer with their mouths, but they can also harvest their winter food with the machines that they pull. Mm-hmm. And I went to a, a conference in the fall and the way I heard these old timer farmers talking about working with horses was amazing. Like these tough. You know, 70-year-old guys just like, yeah. Once I get out there with the horses, it's like nothing else exists and it's the most special thing in the world. And, that sounds beautiful. Yeah. And these things are the things that make life magical. Mm-hmm. And I think they're really important. And I think that we've lost so much in the name of convenience. Mm-hmm. Like it has robbed us of almost everything special and sacred in our lives. Yeah. So we, over the winter, I just kept having this feeling like horses are coming to our farm this year, and I didn't know how, because a good team of horses is. You know, somewhere between 20 and$30,000. Right. And we're having a baby in, in a few weeks. But I just kept, and I just kept saying it to everyone. I think we're getting horses this year and I don't know how. And then we, I got a message on Facebook and, there's this couple nearby to us who has been logging and sugaring with these horses, for like a decade. And they're in their late sixties and they have grandkids across the country and they're not ready to get rid of the horses, but they wanted to have the summer to visit their grandkids and focus on their health and slow down a little. Wow. And so not only are we borrowing these horses for the summer and just paying for their expenses, he, Bob, the owner, is mentoring us with them. That's amazing. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. So yeah, so this summer the only goal is to basically learn how to work with draft horses. I've been hand driving them around. Wow. Magical. Yeah. But eventually, I really wanna, I just wanna explore, is it possible to work with horses and have a viable farm? Yeah, I'm sure it is. When you say something about how like, convenience has kind of wrecked us and in a lot of ways I look around and I think it's really not super convenient because a lot of the things that we've. Put in place that are quote unquote convenient, are causing like extreme degradation. And I mean, I was just talking with somebody the other day about how expensive their synthetic fertilizers are that they're having to use and thinking, you know, you think you traded something for convenience, but now you're having to do all of this and pay all this extra money. Like,'cause you've broken the natural systems. So how convenient is it really? And you know, we're, we're only in like the first or second generation of these practices. So long term, it's not gonna be convenient even in the slightest. No. And I personally don't, a single person who has ever said, yeah, I just have too much time. You know, like I'm just relaxing so much that I have too much time and convenience has only made our lives more hectic, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think farm life is one of the most amazing places to see beauty. Just having the ability to be outdoors all day, watching just the natural world unfold in front of you is such a, such a blessing in this day and age when a lot of people are sitting indoors all day. I I feel so beyond fortunate that I'm outside every day and I feel for my husband who's inside, and it's such a disconnect to where. He's supposed to be as a human. His circadian rhythm is totally jacked. He, even when he does work out, he has to constantly, we were just talking yesterday, he's having to constantly battle because then he sits in an office chair all day. I feel like it is really the perfect place to see beauty at its peak. And so I'm loving that you are embracing that and doing what you can do with these draft horses to savor all of that. And it's just really cool to see. I'm super excited to watch that journey too. Yeah, I think it's interesting how our society has placed so much value on, taking people away from manual labor jobs and jobs that are outside and putting people in offices and labeled those jobs as important. Mm-hmm. And now. People go to gyms now and they have to escape to go hiking and camping and everything. And it's like we've just built this way of living that doesn't work at all. Mm-hmm. And now there's like a whole nother industry that's trying to make this system work, but it really isn't. Definitely. It's super sad. So. I know a lot of farmers who are listening are going to think that that slow way of life, the draft horses are totally a utopian dream, unrealistic for global food production. And I'm sure there's some fair arguments there, but what would you say to that? I mean, I would say to that, that our current model of food production is killing all life on earth. And, if we wanna be around for the next couple thousand years, we need to explore. How we can live well on this earth going forward. Mm-hmm. And I think that, you know, one farm isn't supposed to produce the food for the whole world. Right. And, I think that small farm, I mean, small farms in most of the world are what feeds the world and Yeah. So yeah, I, I don't know. I don't personally have all of the answers, but I do know that the current paradigm isn't working and I want to explore what, what will work. Definitely. And I also wanna have fun and enjoy my life. Yes. Because I think that's really important. Totally true. It's one of the most heartbreaking things is to hear farmers who just dread their work or it's so routine and, I pretty soon will have a guy on the podcast who was farming in Australia, farming on some of the largest plots of land in the world, and he was just sitting in the tractor feeling so much disconnection, like I'm just viewing it all from this air conditioned vehicle. Yeah. And uh, yeah, so it's certainly I've experienced just the way that it's brought joy to my life and, it's an exhilarating thing to be in rhythm with nature. Absolutely. Yeah. I'll say even on our small scale, I realized that when we switched from small square bales to round bales mm-hmm. And I, you know, we're, we're clipping the pastures once a year after the cows are grazing. I hate being an attractor. And me too, like I, I wasn't finding enjoyment feeding the cows anymore. Like feeding small square bales is such a, it's amazing. It smells good. And yeah, flakes are so satisfying when they break off and like the, the rustle the hay makes when you throw it onto the ground and the way the cows just sort of like stick their nose in it and fluff it out. Um, that's beautiful. Yeah. Like even on that very small level, I felt like I was losing some of the things that made farming really special for me. Yeah. I wanna go back, back and find those things again. Yeah. You were saying that small farms feed the world and that is so true. It's such a narrative in a lot of agricultural spaces that. Farmers have to feed the world. And by that they mean like large scale industrialized farmers. But for the most part, in many, continents like Asia, over 80% of the food comes from small farms. And the question is not really who feeds the world, but like what are they producing for the world? Um,'cause you know, in the US the biggest commodity crops like corn and soy, that's over 90% of that isn't even going to humans, like for human consumption directly. So that's a huge, huge thing. If you define feeding the world by calories, like as in ultra processed food, calories, then yeah, maybe farmers in the US or I know Brazil, they have so much deforestation, so they have huge mono crops now. Like maybe countries like that are feeding, quote unquote feeding the world in calories. But if you define it by nutritional diversity and resilience and whole foods, it's small farms. I sometimes I wonder about like, how long can our systems go on like this? Mm-hmm. You know, with health declining and healthcare costs rising and, in Vermont we're reaching the breaking point. People can't afford their property taxes because of school health insurance and health insurance premiums are rising by double digits every year. And so it's like, well yeah, these farms are creating huge amounts of calories and they're maybe contributing to soon the collapse of the systems that are keeping our country running. So there's so many variables that need to be taken into account, not just like how many of crops is one farm producing. Yeah. Somebody online recommended a book, and this is similar to your, I'm not gonna name the book'cause I don't want anybody to read this book, but I mean, she's a agricultural influencer and promoted this book about how basically bottom line is how. We do need these giant, giant, large scale farms to feed the world. And I read through the whole book because that's what I do. I went to college for political science. I believe in both sides of the story. That's mm-hmm. Just how I am. And, so I, I put myself through a lot of the things and something that I really noticed about this book in particular was that there were like no statistics, no, real factual evidence proofs. It was a lot of opinion about how organic farming isn't sustainable long term and how regenerative farming won't feed the world. And it was like all these big statements, but none of them were really backed up by anything other than kind of like salty opinions. Mm-hmm. And it really kind of broke my heart because I can't imagine how many hundreds, if not thousands of people like, listen to this or, and or bought the book and read it like I did and don't know differently and just. Believe exactly what they read. And I think that these mindsets are what's really keeping us stuck and in these detrimental systems that there's obviously, we couldn't just cut cold Turkey right now, but um Right. But if we're ever gonna explore other opportunities and try to steward the land better and nourish the planet, we're gonna have to ask these questions. And certainly books like that that shut down any question asking aren't gonna work. And that's like, that's the whole point of this podcast is to have people on with different opinions and viewpoints and just really kind of try to find and align on what really will serve the planet Right. In the long run. totally. And I, I feel like maintaining, curiosity is so important. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. A lot of your social media posts really, really catch my eye. The different things that you write about in such a poetic way. Like just the other day you wrote about grass as solar panels. Mm-hmm. Can you give us some examples of ways that the way we're tending to the earth really can benefit the planet and the environment and kind of what you're seeing on your property and, how that journey's been for you. Yeah. yeah, so just recently in the past year or so, even a lot of the things that I was hearing at regenerative agriculture conferences started to feel a little exploitative to me. Mm-hmm. It's just become all about how many pounds of forage you can get off of each acre. And, I have started to think about everything in terms of cycles like everything in nature is a cycle. Yeah. From the moon cycle to the seasons, just like every single thing is a circle that completes. Yes. And, we, yeah, we have a lot of, I guess our, our farm must be an ideal spot for a solar farm because very often we get letters or phone calls from companies asking if we would consider putting solar panels in our fields. And I'll, I'll be honest, it's like, I forget the exact number, but it's like 10 to$15,000 an acre a year for a lease that they're offering. Yeah. So I totally understand how people can't say no to that. Mm-hmm. Our farmers preserved, so we, we can't say yes, but I don't tell them that. I'm just like, our farm is already full of solar panels. Like every single green thing that grows on our farm is a solar panel and it's a self perpetuating system. Yeah. And I really feel like as a, you know, just as a society that we should be asking, how can we create the products that we need to live from these perennial biological systems? Mm-hmm. Because we are the only species on earth that takes things out of circles. Like the way that we create products and then put them in the landfill, like the landfill is a, is a dead end. It heats the surface from being completed. Right. I remember when I was, I, I posted a video of like fertilizing my garden with my skim milk leftover for making butter for my cow. Mm-hmm. And somebody so many people got offended and they were like, that's such a waste. And I feel like that is a symptom of not living in circles in our society. Yeah. Like the, literally the only waste is when the circle doesn't get completed when something ends up in the landfill or can't be turned back into soil. Yes. Um, definitely. So yeah, that is how we have started thinking about our farm, like what can we produce here in a perennial biological system that the earth wants to give us and could keep giving us for thousands of years, like our sheep flock could be around 2000 years from now, if the next however many generations of people decided to keep them here versus solar panels only last 25 years. Yeah. So it's like, that's a hundred or that's about a hundred sets of solar panels that would need to be mined from the earth. Um, yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's crazy that, and I've been watching that whole story unfold with so much farmland being taken over by solar and it's really fascinating because. If they really cared about the environment, they'd be putting them over highways or, places like that over parking garages. And of course there's way more steps that go into that, and they just don't wanna have to deal with city municipality rules and mm-hmm. Contracting so it's just much easier to just come in and pay a farmer and just plop'em down. But that right there just shows me clear as day that the motivation is not, quite what they say it is, you know? Yeah, totally. And I feel like many humans think about things in terms of our own lifetime. So it's like, oh, you know, solar panels last for 25 or 30 years. That might feel like a long time. Mm-hmm. But really, I mean. Just the amount of trash that would be produced in the next 2000 years by continuously replacing 10 acres of solar panels is so much trash. Like our earth cannot produce enough minerals for us to keep consuming energy the way that we are with solar panels. For sure. So I, I'm, yeah, I wanna know where can we produce energy from perennial biological systems? Like we beautiful. We burn be wax candles at night instead of having lights on. Mostly just because it's really nice. Oh yeah. But also, like, there's so many things like our wool sponges, you know, people use enough plastic sponges in the US to fill the Empire State Building every single year. Mm-hmm. Our sponges are, where do they go? Yeah. They're made from grass. And when I always tell people like, don't throw them in the trash when you're done with them. Just put them outside somewhere so that they can return to the earth. Yeah. So many people don't even realize where trash goes. It's just like outta sight, outta mind. And they don't realize that these landfills it's not, it's not a normal environment. Like, so things can't even decompose like they should. Exactly. So those sponges that are made of plastic that theoretically should take like 200 years to. Biodegrade, like in a landfill, in a stagnant environment. They might take way more than 200 years to biodegrade. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. We're just stashing it all together. I don't know if you've seen the documentary, it's called Buy Now, like BUY now. It'll definitely Rock Your Day, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't watch it anytime soon, but like, yeah, it, uh, definitely for listeners, I think it was on Netflix, but it just shows where all the trash is going. Mm. And specifically with technology like that, there's just pits and pits of old iPhones and laptops and everything else, and places all over the world, and it's just getting shipped out of the United States predominantly. It's like all of our over consumption is just being shipped off to other countries and Yeah. Like Beaches and Ghana that have mountains. Wow. They look like sand dunes. They're mountains of clothes. And so, uh, yeah, it's really crazy. And I think of that every time I think about the solar panel problem. Mm-hmm. Big time. Mm-hmm. Totally. Do you have any other insights for us as far as how farming can nourish the planet? just as a society, we're living so far from how we're supposed to be. Mm-hmm. And, we're disconnected from each other and, and from the sacred, like from the things that really make life special. And that is what is causing us to overconsume so much.'cause we're trying to fill a hole in us that isn't, that's like gaping right now. And something that's really important to me is. Connecting people to this way of life. Like we had a young man from Brooklyn come stay with us two years ago in our yurt. And he had taken the train and it rained every single day. And, he had a bike and he didn't realize there was like a 900 foot hill from the train station to our house. Oh, wow. And so he couldn't go anywhere. And so we sort of just like brought him along with us, with our week and he helped our friends build a fence. And he came to one of the magical potlucks with music. Mm-hmm. And, he was at our baby shower this past weekend helping us. Oh wow. And he, he was like, that, that trip completely changed my life and I'm sure it did. Showed me what was possible. So it's like the way that we farm. It heals this land that we're on, the animals that live here are happier, and the energy that goes into the meat is better, and it nourishes people differently. Mm-hmm. I always say, if, if you're washing your dishes with a wool sponge, like you're holding the energy of this place in that sponge. Right. So it's this whole cascade of, of things like, the food is healthier, the land is healthier, people can come visit here, and it changes something deep inside of them. And so I just wanna keep, yeah. Connecting people to this way of life. And because it really is possible. Mm-hmm. To live this way and slow down and be more connected to the earth. And it's sort of like the only way in my opinion. We introduced some people to the horses over the weekend and just being near those, you know, they're huge. They weigh over 1800 pounds each. Wow. Yeah. They're jet and they're gentle and people were just in awe of them. Yeah. And, so it's all about connecting, connecting to everything. Mm-hmm. I think that is how we can heal the planet with farming. I love that. It, reminds me of something else kind of going back to your story coming from a vegan perspective. You wrote a blog years ago about how the vegan diet is actually super detrimental to animals, and like, it cut, it cuts that connection. Um, like what did you believe about meat eaters when you were a vegan? Mm. Like what kind of worldview and stereotypes were you thinking? What part of the conversation are many vegans missing? Yeah. I always say now that veganism is the first step towards a truly ethical diet. And I wish it was a step that everyone's skipped because it's so bad for you. But, um, when I was a vegan, I, and I can. Thinking back to it, I can literally recall the feeling in my body. Like I truly thought that people who ate meat couldn't love animals. Mm-hmm. And I remember just feeling completely, sort of like shocked. Like, how could you not, how could you eat? How can you say you love animals and eat meat? Mm-hmm. That they were sort of like morally missing something like mm-hmm. The way to have a healthy planet and not kill animals. All you have to do is eat different. All you have to do is like, go to the grocery store Yeah. And buy these different foods. It's so easy. and then that really switched for me when I. Started interning at Polyface. There was this one day right after dinner and I was sitting outside overlooking the pastures and I thought, if cows are so bad for the environment, why is it, why is there so much life here? Yeah. And the, the cows created that life. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't a switch that happened easily, it took me probably like four years into running my own farm to really believe that ruminant animals on pasture are the best food system that exists. Yeah. They really are. Yeah. Because even if you think of. Like, I'm thinking of my vegetable garden outside mm-hmm. Which I love and I love my vegetables, but there's like all these pests that mm-hmm. Are that can completely just like, I'm, I'm wondering if it's a system that's really healthy, then why is it so vulnerable to Yeah. Why is it so hard and unnatural feeling Yeah. Versus I take that every day Yeah. As a vegetable grower. versus the cows in the pasture. it's such a healthy system all on its own. Yeah. When it's done right. It is kind of the only thing I've seen that revive soil in life so, so fast. Yeah. And even with vegetable farming, you know, that's, that's what I do. The fields, none of the crops that we have are crops that existed thousands of years ago. They're not native plants usually. Right. So there's just a lot of elements of it that this, this is good. And certainly, I mean, I'm, I have a no spray market, garden style farm like this is, yeah. This is not damaging the planet. This is great. The birds and the bees love it, but, it definitely doesn't compare to the, superpowers that ruminant animals have. Yeah. Um, totally. So, yeah. So going back to like tofu for example. Right. Tofu is made from soy. Soy is a monocrop that cannot be grown without herbicides or pesticides. Even if it's certified organic, they are still spraying stuff on that crop that is meant to kill, to kill plants and to kill animals. Such as bugs. Yeah. Um, and then those things wash into our water and they wash into our oceans. I mean, there's, there are just massive dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico that are created from plant-based foods. And not, like we talked about earlier, not most of those plant-based foods aren't, you know, being grown for things other than human consumption. But, I would say that it's hard in our modern society to accept that all life comes from death and that everything is a circle and that, eating grass fed beef. It does kill less things than eating tofu. And yeah, not only does it kill less things, but it promotes more life. Right. Wow. That's so true. Yeah. Yeah. I always think about the little critters in the field that just get absolutely, like pummeled by heavy machinery and the, not, not even to mention the sprays and everything. That is such a huge piece of the conversation that people, it's cognitive dissonance almost like people just don't wanna think about that. Mm-hmm. Totally. Like they're smaller animals that they don't matter as much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But when pollinators are the backbone of our food system. Yeah. Yeah. We, actually the University of Vermont is doing a pollinator study this year, and our farm is one of the locations. Yeah. That is so exciting. Yeah. And they just came to do a checkup on the little b nest that they placed. And, um, Ben said that the guy was, he was so thrilled when he was here because there are so many species of bees in the nest and also so many different kinds of butterflies. And he couldn't even believe how many kinds of birds he heard while he was here. Wow. And it's like, not only can these farms be farms and produce food, but they are also wildlife sanctuaries and endangered species. Like we have boba links in our fields, and we don't mow those fields during the summer mm-hmm. Because we want them to have their habitat. And so I almost feel like it's going from what's the least amount of harm I can do? In the food that I eat, you can change that to like, what's the most amount of good that I can do. Mm-hmm. Beautifully, beautifully said. Really amazing. We'll start wrapping it up, but, you're gonna be a mom, well, you're already mom, but you're gonna be a mom with a baby on the outside here in a few short weeks. What are your thoughts about all of that and, your mindset on motherhood going into it? Wow. Um, pregnancy has really been a portal. I heard a concept that how we treat the earth, how we treat women is how we treat the earth. Because the earth is our, like, mother Earth is our great mother. So pregnancy has been. So eyeopening and just like how much women aren't respected and nourished and, um, I feel like I've been doing a lot of re reclaiming and learning how I am worthy of tender loving care as a, as a woman and a pregnant woman. I actually never wanted to be a mom before I started farming. We had a few little kids at the baby shower and one of their moms sent me a picture of her son with this whole farm setup that he had done since he got home. And she was like, all, all Carter has been doing is playing Katie and Ben's farm for the last 24 hours. Oh. Um, and I'm really, yeah, I'm just excited to. Hopefully raise a human who finds wonder in the natural world. Mm-hmm. And loves it and wants to protect it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I had a very similar experience. I never wanted to be a mom until right before having a baby, and it is so magical. So I'm super excited for you and, excited to visit in the fall and, um, share more about what you guys are doing on your beautiful piece of land. And you'll get to meet my little guy too. Yeah. It's gonna be really fun. Yeah. Yeah. I'm super excited and very, very grateful. And just so grateful that you took time outta your day today. I know you've been so busy and, I really appreciate it. I know that this is going to really transform people's mindsets about this stuff. I, I think you and I might take it for granted a little bit and certainly we try not to, but this is just the way that we believe and it's our worldview. It's how we see the world. But for so many people, especially trapped in different systems of thinking and different farming systems, some of this stuff is revolutionary. Yeah, totally. And probably sounds so wacky because I'm sure that I would've thought so five years ago, but definitely here I am and once you experience it, it starts to all fit into place, so, yeah. Yeah. I'm just excited to see what people think and, uh, open up this conversation more. Thanks, Anna. That was really fun. Thank you. Bye, Hannah. Well, that's it everybody. Happy Tuesday. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. This is. Probably gonna be one of my favorite episodes of all time. I've prerecorded so many and bumped this one up because Katie is just such a light, and I think that what she said today and what we chatted about will really set the stage for the rest of the podcast episodes to come throughout the years. I hope you all have a wonderful week.