REAL Wild Rice! The Importance of Manoomin

https://www.apg-wi.com/ashland_daily_press/paywall/wisconsin-residents-have-until-dec-7-to-weigh-in-on-future-of-9-500-square/article_1b08fb12-5178-401e-90eb-50e9d59f2e89.html - Manoomin isn't mentioned anywhere!

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:01

Welcome back to another episode of the Global Stewardship Podcast, where each week we share inspirational stories, usually with a guest land stewards, people who are harvesting food for the most part, or working in the food system, who are doing things with the environment in mind. And today we have an exciting guest. This is Joe Grene. He is a member of the Lac Dbo. Band of Lake Superior Chippewa in the Wisconsin area. He actually serves as the wild Rice Cultural Enhancement program manager. so much of his work centers on the culturally significant plant that is known as Menno. You may know it as wild rice, particularly. He focuses on their harvesting traditions, restoration, and they monitor what's happening to Menno and trying to preserve the tribal knowledge of the harvesting processes for these foods. Mahnomen is not just a food crop. It is deeply tied to identity, culture, language and land water relations. Wild rice is not only significant culturally, but also scientifically. It is an important plant for stewardship, ecology, and food systems growing in shallow lakes and wetlands. It helps stabilize sediments, reduce shoreline erosion, and improves water clarity. They provide habitat, shelter, and food for fish, ducks, muskrats otters, countless aquatic insects. A single acre of wild rice can support thousands of migratory waterfowl, as Joe's gonna share about today. It's an indicator species. It means, since it only grows in clean oxygen, rich, slightly acidic water, its health actually reflects the health of an entire watershed. So when wild rise declines, it's often an early warning that an ecosystem in its entirety is in trouble. For the people who care for Nomen, it is a sacred responsibility please join me in welcoming Joe Ravine to the podcast. Can you start out by sharing with us how wild Rice fits into the larger ecosystem? Yeah. The wild rice, um, mahnomen, for us it's a indicator species. So it kind of ties into the, your water and the health of the whole ecosystem. different plants, animals, and it all plays a pretty important part. Fisheries, for us here one of the things that, um, that we see, since we're in a pretty big watershed. Everything drains into one of our rivers. We got 10 lakes that are connected, so a lot of monitoring stuff going on. On those 10 lakes. And so, so everything, you know, flows into this river. So we're, kind of checking that. And what happens a lot of times is, through hydrological flows. We find a lot of like, chloride, you know, some of the numbers are, are kind of high, and a lot of sediment that gets piled up in one area of, of our rice bed there. So one of the things that we're finding with, the present times, you know, with our water quality and stuff is, is that we're finding that the lakes are creating their own sediment. So basically what that is, is, so we talk about sediment. Some people might think, well, yeah, that's like a lot of sand, mineral, you know, silica type stuff, but it's not, it's all plant, mature algae, you know, things like that, plants. Oh. So that's what we're seeing. And so, yeah, we got, uh, 260 some lakes. We count everything here down to the nearest pothole, maybe only five acres. We count them all. We got 71 miles of, uh, streams and rivers and about 24,000 acres a wetland. so the water quality is, um, Important, you know, not pretty important. It is important to us, you know, especially with, you know, that amount of wetland within our boundaries of the reservation. So we try to capture all of that can you remind me how many of these rice beds that are in that area? so there's, right now, two, two areas. Where there's Harvard School Rice and one of them areas, didn't have any rice for, huh? Right. Probably 20 some years, maybe a little more, but in the last few years it's, it's come back. Oh, wow. Yeah. But that manno and wild rice, it's not like your average, uh, crop, you know, like corn or soybeans where you go up and plant it every year. It's just a natural wild rice, um, stands. So if the conditions ain't right, sometimes you won't get nothing. It might get a few strands and other times it's perfect. You know, you get, five, 10 acres, you know, depending on how big your wild rice stand is. Right. Yeah. I was just going through some whole historical documents, this morning, kind of refreshing my mind and trying to get my mind into this conversation. You, So, talking about history, for those who are unfamiliar, can you describe what Mahnomen means to your community? Well, the Menno is not only our community, but it means, uh, it a lot to, um, who we are as Anishinaabe people or Ojibwe people. As part of who we are, it's, part of our way of life. Our prophecies that were, we're told a long time ago, and it was part of the whole creation when we talk about, how life was created. So that moment, and played a pretty important part in, in that. A character that we call ou, he was part of that. So that's, it's, really, um, so we're spiritually in that. And that way that's kinda, how we're connected and what it means to us, and, not only that, but, um, it's just, uh, a friend of mine, we, we were talking one time and what he was saying was like, that manno, it's so important that it's in our lives from, the time we're born until we, until we die. And that menos no matter what we're doing. You know, we could have it at a dinner meal, you could have, uh, lunch, you know, ceremonies, you know, different things at Wild Rice it's always there, you know? Right. And so. And I got to thinking about that and Yeah, it's true. Even when, even when our moms are carrying, carrying the babies, they eat wild rice. So even goes a little bit further, you know, that way. So, so even before life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's, that's how important it is. And that's how we're connected. Are there some more examples you can give of ways that Mahnomen is intertwined with Daily, daily life? Yeah, just, I'll give you a good example. So like, over the weekend, a couple young ladies, they came and seen me here, and, uh, they asked me to help him out with something so it was kind of a long process. But, uh, anyways, we kind of, I helped'em out. And then, they gifted me, some stuff and, a package of Wild Rice was, um, that was one of the gifts that they gave me, so Oh, cool. But that's one way, you know. A lot of times somebody might help us out, you know, and not an appreciation of that help we'll give them a pound of rice, or, maybe we have some visitors, we'll cook'em up some rice or, make some rice soup or, you know, maybe for lunch or something. You know, or so, like my uncle, he gives me a lot of canned venison or, and so I'll just like kind in, in return all here. I got some rice, you know, I might have enough rice to give away. Uh, yeah, it's just, just a lot of different things, you might have a special occasion and somebody's looking for a wild rice, and so we try to help out that way, uh, myself and, my boss, it used to be my boss, he retired well actually our, our tribal chairman, we, we, we sat around one time and thought, well, you know, let's, you know, maybe you can do some community potlucks, like this time of the year, through the winter months, and get together and tell the stories. Give some updates on, what the wild Rice program is up to, and, you know, different things like that. So there you'd have like a, you'd have that meal, just have like a little community potluck, you know, wild rice, fish, meat, berries, pies, you know? Mm-hmm. Different kinds of soups and stuff. And so that's kind of been, one of them things, you know, somebody's always looking for wild rice when you got something going on. How, how, and I know for listeners, so many people may be thinking of the wild rice from the grocery store across the us. Can you give some more background about how the mahnomen, you're talking about is very different from what people think of from the grocery store? Yeah. Yeah. So the, the rice that you see in a, in a grocery store is, uh, it's Patty Wild Rice. And it compared to, um, wild, wild rice, it, uh, has a whole different flavor. It takes longer to cook. And, so does Pad while race, what, um, what has happened is, uh, I, I don't know, quite a few years ago, what I probably wanna say, maybe, maybe the fifties and sixties, uh, university of Minnesota started working on, modifying, studying the genetics of wild rice. Mm-hmm. And, eventually they, they figured it out. So this Patty Rice is just like, just like any other crop that you grow year after year, and it all ripens at the same time. And then their whole processing part of that is different from, from the processing, that we do. But I read an article out of Orion magazine oh, quite a few years ago, and now they processed that Patty rice, so they harvest it, right. And then, uh, so then they were loaded, loaded up on trucks, and then they would dump it on kind like a big parking lot, and they just kind of let it ferment. Hmm. And that, I guess that was part of their raping and process. I guess they're trying to mimic how we do it. And so Yeah. On a large scale Yeah, but on a larger scale. so when I got to that stage, they had put it in this big roasting thrashing machine. And a lot of times what happens is, those husks and stuff, while it was ripening or, you know, kind of like fermenting or whatever, it'd get moldy. Right. And so that's kinda how that rice tastes. They how mold smells. Yeah. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And so anyways, getting back to, the genetics and the modification what they call shattering, so they're all riping at the same time. That's what they called it. but the natural wild rice, is a lot different. So there might be parts, of a bed, natural stand while race. Or riping, um, first, and so it kinda ripens in stages, right. And so back in the day they managed it pretty good, race chiefs and they knew when to go and, how much to pick and times has changed, but, Yeah. And then like our process and our, when we process well, right? So we'd harvest it and bring it back home and lay it out on tarps, if they had enough time, and kind of start that drying process. Mm-hmm. But like in our family, what we would do is, we'd bring it back and then especially if there's a lot of like rice worms. Then we'd, what we call burning of bugs out, the worms. They'd have spiders and, in that process, it would stop that ripening and then we'd just lay it out the next day. And, that's how we'd get green rice. So you mentioned that naturally the rice would ripen at different times. Yeah. Are there also different types of minno, like different flavors depending on where you're harvesting from? Uh, I know about flavors. Like what they call lake rice, sometimes the rice is a little bit longer compared to a rice that's on the river, but, I guess you can kind of make an argument dependent. I mean, I've seen River Rice that it was probably the same size as some Lake Rice, right. And, it really, it varies.'cause, sometimes when a rice gets above the water, it gets outta that frozen leaf stage nowadays, you know, we're having a lot of with, swans and geese eating the stalks. And sometimes they'll eat them stocks when they're just above the water and then they'll move on. Otherwise they'll just, sometimes they just hang around. But in some areas, they'll move on. That rice will grow. And, and it might be a week or two behind from the original if you went someplace else where Swans didn't eat'em. So. So they might get a chance to produce, some rice, some seed, you know, um, and it could be smaller, it just depends on, you know, the chemistry of everything. Water sediment, you know, everything like that. So it, varies, I guess, in my, my opinion. That's just what I've seen in my own observation. Yeah. So could you dive more into your personal story with wild rice? Like when you learned to harvest, I know you, you said this has been part of your life since before you were born, but maybe just go in more depth into your personal journey with this. Yeah. You know, I've always been around rice throughout my life even when I was younger, but, it wasn't until in my later teens that actually actually went open. Harvested and been part of the process. And when you're kids, you know, you gotta do all the grunt work. You know, you, you gotta go around, fold the tarps with the rice, get it ready for dry and, you know, get your, get your pitch wood and, dance the rice or, do all that run and get grandma or ma or dad some water to drink. And, you're kind of the gopher kind of kind of person. That's amazing. But yeah, so you get, it's kinda like you had to earn that right. To go out and harvest, you know? It wasn't you just gonna jump in a coon and go, with somebody back in the day. Nowadays it's d that's different too, but yeah, it was, uh, it's not like, jumping in a John Deere and going out there, you know, and harvesting your corn or anything like that. But, you know, it's a lot of, lot lot of work,, lot of hot days, might tip over, different things like that. And just being out there, out there in water, in the rice, rice bed, and it's just like, um, I guess, you know, one time few years ago I was racing with, uh, my nephew. Nice with him, him and I, and got in a nice, really nice ice bed. And, uh, and it's like this here and that here, the race fall in the canoe, you know? Empty canoe. Just hearing that, you know, there's, it, it just, this like, was like music, you know, it's just, especially when you got a rhythm going and you're knocking rice and it's just, uh, you don't hear anything like that. That's the only place you hear that kinda that kind of sound and beautiful. you share what harvesting looks like now? because I know there's people listening that you even said dancing on the rice. I'm sure they have no idea, you know?'cause all they know is grocery store wild rice. Yeah. Can you share more about like, the beauty of this system? Yeah. So that's that dancing on the rice is, is part of the process when you process after you harvest it and, and we call parts and rice, you perching the rice to dry out the husks on the rice. And then when you dance the rice, sometimes you can dig a hole, then you can put the canvas in there, and then you get one of your 80, 90, a hundred pound relatives. And, and so of them got special moins that they put on, it probably goes to just below your knee. And then, uh, they then, if there's a certain way that you dance that race, it's not like doing, uh, not like doing the jig or doing the cha cha cha I thing, you know, not nothing like that, you know? And it's kind of like more, uh, I dunno how to even describe that emotion. Almost like how a washing machine, washing, how the, how that kind of moves. Like that kind of has a twist to it. And then, in our family we had a homemade, uh, cedar barrel and then on the bottom that there were kind of like, uh, little ridges in it that was just from dancing. The rice it created them little ridges in there. I guess it was probably like those, the grain. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that was good. That was, that was a good little system we had there. That's how long that Cedar Barrel has been around. Wow. So that's what that dance in the race is. and then you have a win-win, what they call win-win. And after you dance the race, you put it in there and then, uh, to describe it, it's kinda, kinda like a, an Norco pan, a little bit water and it kind of, it's not as deep though. It's more the front of, it's kind curled out. Like those old water pictures, those old water pictures that spout kind of something like that, and then, uh, there even a certain way that you had to, you flip that win-win basket. And then that wind would, blow out the, all the husks, all the fine stuff. So it was kind, kinda have to have a little breeze to do that. Nowadays we, we got electric fans and different things like that, you know, to help, right. To help that, process. So, yeah. Well, that was one of my questions was how harvesting and processing looks different now than when you were growing up even. Well, nowadays, at least in our community, there might be a few of us that kind of do the old method, so we might, do some of that and exhibits or teaching the kids, you know, may educational type tough, personally, a lot of us, we got these machines know Yeah. I know for me, I, um, when I, I talk about ping, ping rice, rice, I use some of the old method, I find these old pitch dumps, the ones that are Burt from forest fires. Mm. I use, I use that. I split'em up and I use that and. It helps, um, burns a little hotter and a little longer. And, it just adds flavor, to the rice, and some people use different types of wood, oak, maple. But nowadays, you get these real elaborate roasting machines and thrashing machines and So everything, you know, is, pretty much modernized, I guess. back in the day, I guess they didn't have to worry too much about time, and everything. Yeah, exactly. Everything's kind of geared around that clock nowadays, you know, oh, this starting to go down better, put things away, you know, time to have dinner. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I'm sure that there is an element of it that, it's kind of sad to see things changing, but at the same time it's keeping it accessible for people so that. Traditions can continue too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's just like, uh, I guess, when you learn to ride a bike, right? Yeah. So it's kinda like, uh, it's kind like that, you never, once you, live part of your life doing that, it's never gonna go away, you know, it's just, yeah. It's just a time thing right now. And, and it's just, there's people in our community that still know that process and that kind of, like I was saying, we teach the kids at the school and try to get them out to harvest rice and, we try to, trying to keep it alive and pass it on it's just, um, nowadays we got a lot of competition that is out competing us to some degree, you know? Like what? Oh, we got, uh, Xbox, PS fives, PS four cell phones. You got Roblox. Uh, you got all kinds of, got all kinds of things. I'm talking from experience. I mean, I'm a, about a year or so, I bought a PS five, right. you know what I did just to get it for myself. But, you know, I got grandkids and stuff and, you know, my, my kids, all got PS five. so anyways, I, I didn't bother with it for, for about a year, and not until a couple months ago I got on there and I tell you what, it's just like, it's like any other, you know, type of addiction. You know? Yeah. But yeah, so those, those type of things, the technology, internet, you know, hey, internet is good, but at the same time it's not, you know? Mm-hmm. for sure. I know there's a lot of barriers, keeping people from people, continuing on traditions just getting outside even, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, that's just, you know, that's part of the, part of that whole part of the thing. You know, there was, I had this book, it's called, uh, uh, lash Child in the Woods. It was pretty, it talks about all, all her stuff I was talking was pretty interesting. I borrowed it out to my cousin and I never got it back. She's a teacher. It must've been a good book. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it was a good book. It talks about how kids nowadays ain't getting outside. They don't know their trees and they talk about these gated communities and different, just a lot of things, with the struggle of getting outside, I remember you had told me that, in many ways you guys are now having to travel further mileage to collect minomen. Yeah. So I guess, on an annual, survey study as far as like in the Great Lakes region, so there's like a 6% decline in wild rice. And then, um, so one of our, university partners, one, one of the student was working on some stuff for us, and through her research she found out from this year, or maybe last year and the year before there was 18% decline this, in that year. But on an annual it's like six to seven, 7%, so with those declines, um, so we're traveling quite a ways, um, hour and a half, 45 minutes and Wow. So, yeah, so that kind of put the strain on a lot of other resources, you know, as, as a family or as an individual, especially with the price of gas and, different things like that. Maybe you gotta stop at, Culvers or something, you know, and buy lunch and, either that or a lot of times we don't even make lunch. We just make sure we got a jug of water and we go, you know? Right. So are you traveling? First of all, how far did you used to have to travel? Oh, we just school traveled mile, mile, half a mile. Oh, wow. That's a huge jump. Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, so one lake's just north of us usually when, that particular lake has always produced for us, even on a bad year. I mean, that's how big and that's off reservation, but that's always produced for us, you know? Right. You know, so a couple bad years there, but, you know, a lot of times we had ghost rice and sometimes there might have been some good rice there, but a lot of worms, So does everybody now use the same equipment, the same boats? To do the actual harvesting. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The canoe. I mean, I have had this canoe for a while now. I use it for duck hunting. I use it for racing and you know, different things like that. But yeah, rice or knocking sticks or racing stick. I got a couple pair, I got 10 pairs of rice sticks, you know? Yeah. That's awesome. I had mine for about five years now, so, yeah. Do you think that younger people, younger generations, with all the distractions and all the changes, do you think that they're still really valuing these traditions? Um hmm. I guess, uh, to some degree, I think to some degree, I guess that question would have to be specific, to a specific practice. Like, let's say, let's say like language, right? Say our language, language. There's a resurgence I guess you would say. Um, interesting. And, and then let's say, um, let's say racing there, there's, I know when, when I started working for the Wild Rice program, uh, there were quite a few people, but now. Like today, this past year there were there's a lot of harvesters just within our reservation here, and but this past year, I would say half of them harvesters didn't go out because'cause of, of a bad year, you know? Interesting. Yeah. So I guess I said, it all depends, you know, what you're talking about. You could say, uh, you know, what about, uh, is that they value, that whole practice on making bir bar canoes or, or maybe, uh, dancing at POWs, you know that no, there's different areas in our way of life, culture and stuff that it's, there's, I could say yeah, there's a resurgence in in all areas. It just, some numbers are, that percentage is higher in, you know, higher, lower, you know, um. Right. You know, it just depends. So for you, when you were a teenager and you got to participate in Go Rising for the first time, do you remember how that felt going from being like you had said, just kind of helping out with the little tasks here and there to actually getting to participate. Do you remember kind of getting to do that for the first time? Yeah, it was like, uh, I was really excited, you know, we had to paddle across the lake and, just being out on water and then actually getting into the race bed and. Actually, I was what they call the polar, my uncle. He was the one that was knocking away. So it was like learning about how to do that and, I mean, it was a lot of fun, you know, hot. It wasn't used to that, you know, and it were the worms and the spider, like, yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, it was like to see, seeing all that hard work, and then, gathering or harvesting that race, coming back with, half a boat full of race, or canoes and then down the road, you know, come Thanksgiving time or Christmas or, you know, whatever, having that as a meal. Yeah. Know, I, I harvested that, it tastes good, you know? Wow. That's really special. Yeah. I'm sure it really brought, brought it to life for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's like, you know, if I'd have to work, if I didn't have to have a job and just to survive, you know, if I could just survive as doing odds and ends and not have to worry about all this other stuff going on in the world, I'd be that, that that would be my, my happy place. I enjoy, I enjoy doing that, I don't have a lot of much time, I don't have much time to do a lot of that, because I gotta fit this role, I guess, you know? You know, so to speak, when you say that it would be your happy place, I know you shared about the sounds and it being unlike any other sound, but like, what, what are you hearing? What are you seeing? What, what is that experience like? Well, uh, that's a tough question, I guess the best way that, that I can say it, it's like, my uncle he told me one time, he goes, you know, nephew, he goes, she might be having a hard day, you know, or you might be going through something, you know, or something going on in your life, that disturbing you. And, and sometimes you'll, you'll see something, maybe the sun setting, you know, when you're traveling down a road, maybe you're on the lake fishing or something. And just that setting, the sun setting go. And maybe there's a eagle out there flying around catching a fish or, so I'm going down swooping. He goes, he goes, you're the only one that's, you're the only one that that see, that's seen that. Hmm. You know, so, creator gave you that picture. Or that sound, you can hear Eagles listening, whatever, you know, and that's kinda way that is out there too, out in that, that race bit, it's a different special place, and anybody that hasn't harvested wild rice, they, they, you know, they're trying to paint, paint a picture that, you know, that they can imagine hearing that race hit the bottom of the cane for the first time. But the ones that I, that might be listening and, and harvest wild rice, they know exactly what I'm talking about. That's beautifully said. I love that. Yeah. I think that will definitely help people picture it. Yeah. When we chatted before, we talked about the ways that science and colleges are working to intersect with your traditional knowledge of Mahnomen. Could you highlight some of those efforts that people are taking? To protect wild rice so that listeners kind of understand what's happening in the world of protecting the rice. Yeah. When I started working here, we partnered up in, uh, with the University of Minnesota, uh, back in, uh, 2018. And, uh, so that whole project, um, is, traveling driven. So what I mean by traveling driven, so a lot of their, the work that they were doing, a lot of the research that they're doing was, those research questions came from the tribal partners. And, and it just really, um, really kind of driven, looking at a big picture, you know, doing like a sediment cores, lake cores, water quality, water levels, groundwater, and then just kind of looking at, all these different aspects, you know, with wild rice. So like, what we were talking about. Okay. Yeah. You know, winter's play an important, is an important part of, wild rice health, right. And so, one of the things that, that, we noticed for a fact, you know, that back in the day, winters played were a lot colder. Hmm. We had a lot more snow and we had a lot more rice. Right. So those, all those snow depths and, and, cold temperatures, you know, back in the day, I, I remember it'd be almost, I remember one year, probably like in the seventies, I, it was like, oh, month it would below zero. Definitely. And, and, and, I remember snow banks being hired in the stop signs. You don't see that anymore. You definitely don't see that anymore. So those types of things and looking at, uh, what they call climate change and, just the whole, that whole, hydrological flows, you know, studying, upwell in groundwater, levels and, different things like that, sediment decks and, you know, looking at old chemistry of that Even looking at forestry practices, right? When you clear cut 120 acres, what's there? There ain't nothing there. So a lot of times when they do things like that, a lot of times what, what happens is, you get a lot more, aspir and pop what they call, so that. You know, they grow really fast and then it's just, you think 120 acres, you know, all you got is the aspen there, so it's just, it's sucking up a lot of water. Right. Oh, interesting. You get a lot of more conifers, conifer trees compared to, you know, your deciduous. So, okay, so what does that have to do with, you know, with when omen? Well, deciduous trees, right? So when you got a lot of snow, so it creates a shade compared to your conifers where, you know, they start coming out in the spring leaves, right? Oh, wow. And then, then in the fall time, and in the fall time, they fall off. So the cirus trees, they slow the melt down and they slow down the, the transportation, distribution of that water going into the ground and getting groundwater and things like that compared to, um, your conifers. Mm-hmm. And so that all played all plays and just looking at different temperatures, you know, so you might have a cold wet year, summer or a winter, or you might have a cold, uh, dry, maybe just have cold and a lot of snow or, cold or warm and no snow. You know, you kind of, kind of looking at it and tying that into not only, um, forestry, but also looking at, our native aquatic plants that, so there's a connection between those winters. Forestry, and a lot of other things too. You know, I'm not just picking on forestry people, but, yeah. Well, no, there's, there's so many factors at play, whether it's the herbicides or pesticides. I know, all the surrounding states are really heavy industrial agriculture states. We had talked about mosquito sprayers. yeah, you, you can drive around just about anywhere you go. Uh, you can see the mosquito bandit or mosquito, um, mosquito sheriff. You got these little signs, you know, mosquitoes and they don't realize, you know, how much harm they're doing when they, when they do that, you know? Um,'cause it affects not only plants, you know, it affects your pollinators. And we're definitely seeing that, at, at least here, you know, we're seeing that and we're, we're trying to get a hold on that and trying to address those issues. And, it's like going into battle almost, you know? It's just, uh, but you know, we struggle with that because, the resources, resources available for us is, and we're limited, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, now if we had to budget, like the state DNR or you know, some other organization, we'd probably be sitting pretty good. You know, last time we chatted, I asked what would be the dream? What would your tribe like to see? In the future in terms of stewardship and care for the Mahnomen beds, if you weren't limited by finances or strength in numbers, what would the dream be? Well, what would our dream be, I guess? One of my dreams is to have the dam removed here on our reservation that, that's kind of having a hindrance, to, to a lot of things. And then, I think, at least for, for us, in talking with many of the rice chiefs in the northern Wisconsin, um, is to, um. You know, have a more role, in managing we can manage our rice beds, you know, on, on the reservation, but, off reservation in the seated territory, you know, um, being able to, um, go in and manage, manage'em, the way that I believe needs to happen, you know? But that, that will, I, I don't know if that will all happen, but, we're gonna make an attempt at it, you know, pretty, pretty soon. You see a long time ago, back in the, you know, late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, we used to, the Indians used to bundle rice. And, when the treaties were signed, uh, 54 treaties, that all went away. Hmm. It's illegal. It's illegal to bundle race off reservation. And it used to be bundled just to bring back from further distances back home. No. What, uh, so when I talk about bundle and rice, so you go to any particular rice bed, right? And it grows and it gets co it starts getting, you know, starts getting to be close to harvest season, right? Mm-hmm. So what they, what the Indian would do, they'd go, they'd bundle a race and the, the stocks. And it would help. With the rice, um, keeping it, from birds eating it. Um, and it help, help the process. The riping in it would help, um, the swans and the geeks from eating them stocks. And, so there were many purposes for doing that, and so there's even like certain rice beds, you know, like say within the res reservation, I mean there they would have, um, there was a method. Certain families would, would rice this particular right part of the rice bed, and this family would do that. And when they bundled them, they had like different type of ways identifying who, who, who, who bundled which ones. Yeah. Yeah. So they might have, uh, they might have five or 10 acres, of rice that my family had. And then, uh, let's see, uh, Hannah Bog, you know, had had the other 10 on the other side and there were ways, um, on bundles that identified that. Gotcha. I'm sure it seems much more haphazard to not have that system anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, definitely challenge. Yeah. I guess when we talk about it, we've had folks look at us kind of funny, and it's just, it's kind of like, whatcha talking about, or, you know, just kind of like shrugged your shoulders. Yeah. Wow. Pretty crazy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's. We know what we're talking about when it comes to rice, you know? Yeah. It's, it's in our blood, you know, it's just, just, it's in, it's in giveaways blood.'cause that's who we are. You know? We, we know. I mean, do you think there could ever be a way of being allowed to bundle again? Well, I guess there, I guess there is a way, I guess, you know, it, uh, I see, I guess if we have, uh, 80 acres of rice on the reservation here, we can go out and bundle it, maybe on educational, you know, teaching kids how to do it, bringing that back, you know. Yeah. That's probably about the only way that we could keep that alive for sure. But even then too, we're in a time right now where, where it's like, even amongst ourselves, you know, this is like, that's rice to be harvest, you know? That's my, that's our rice too, you know, kind of mentality type thing, I guess. But, uh, yeah, it's just changed a lot. Yeah, we're, you know, we're just living in different times, you know? Well, the wild rice decline is definitely something I think listeners will be concerned about. There's a lot of natural minded people who listen to this show. Do you have any ideas for how people can partner with you guys in a respectful way? Yeah. Yeah. I guess we're always looking for volunteers, I guess. Um, our biggest thing, so like our Wild Rice program right now is, um. This is, is tribally funded. Um, we do, um, we do get, uh, some funding from our university partners, that we, we help write grants for. So like the sub-awards, those are more, um, they're more project focused. Mm-hmm. Focused. And so I know, I know like for us, I think one of the things that we've been talking about right, is, um, so I talked about, um, uh, vegetation, or aquatic plants, um, al Caped on our rice. And then, and then, the sediment, right? So like one rice bed, we got 16 feet of muck. Oh wow. That's all plant dec, declared, um, plant material. So we found rice 16 feet down on these core samples, gravity cores. We got, so we found rice with the hustle on them yet at the, at 16 feet. Wow. And so, and so, that's how, so we need, we've been looking at, uh, these wheat harvesters and, you know, different things like that. But we, we don't, you know, we, we don't, we can't find the funding for that, you know? Mm. So I Miami, and I know, early on, uh, when I started there, we were looking at one of these smaller wheat harvesters just to go and just send it out, you know, like, just like a garden, you know, just go and thin it out and, not remove'em completely, but just to send'em out and, give the rice some, you know, some, some oxygen and, give'em a chance to, to, um. Know rice plants to, to grow, you know? For sure. Yeah. And, and, and, and there's some, you know, some people are against it and, you know, some people have different thoughts about it, but it's just like, well, we either gonna be part of the prom or we're gonna be part of the solution. And, and so part of the solution is, is that we gotta, we gotta change our management of wild rice. And it's not, it's not happening. You know, it's, uh, I mean, it, it's starting to, you're starting to look at it. We've had discussions, you know, on different methods and, managing them while rice, and that's through that. But I think, if there's, uh, people you know that are listening, they got, you know, nonprofit, funding sources, like things, you know, man, they can help us out, you know. Yeah, exactly. If there's way know people that might be able to, you know, help us out, you know, maybe through application, grant application or something like that, that's our biggest hurdle right now, you know? Mm-hmm. It's just, yeah. Finding ways that we can manage, and, you know what, um, because back in the day when, when our ancestors, our old timers, ones that gone on before us, they, when they were harvesting and, and they would, uh, take their breaks, you know, maybe sit around and have lunch, out there in the race bed. They would pick them plants, like them arrowheads and picker weeds or, you know, different things. They would pick them. That's how they managed, managed them like that, you know? And nowadays like I was talking about, warmer winters and stuff like that, ice thickness, those other aquatic plants, they, you get a jumpstart on, on the rice. So, yeah, that, that, yeah, that's, you know, I really appreciate Hannah, I really appreciate you, reaching out and I think right off the get go, you know, you talked about, our conversation and this podcast and, share the edits and stuff with me and, if we wanted to edit things, you know, I really appreciate that because, I mean, I've had experiences in the past where, uh, I wasn't given that opportunity to, to review. We've had a hard time and all we've, you know, well, you know, history can only speak for itself, you know, and, and what we endured, you know, and, um, so there's a kind of a lot of mistrust and, you know, um, so we always get a chance to, to tell our story. Somebody always wants to hear our story, right? Mm-hmm. But yeah, for you to tell it how you wanna tell it. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so when we tell a story and then you actually see it in a magazine, or you see it in an article someplace, it's, it's not, it's not the same story. Yeah. It's kind of, yeah. It's not really not the same story, you know? Mm-hmm. So I appreciate that. And I guess, yeah, thank you. That's, um, you know, don't, um, you know, I always say, you know, just be respectable and, you know, be so sincere, you know,'cause, um. 90% of the time I can, I can usually tell when, when somebody's, you know, really not being honest. And so, so I really appreciate that and that was kinda like one of the things, you know, um, I was trying to get to, um, before when you asked about the universities, right. That was kinda one of those things when we, had these conversations with the universities was, is that, um, we were kind of skeptical and the people that we were working with from the universities, the professors and the, and the PIs of this project, you know, they understood, they understood where we were coming from and yeah. Um, so we got this thing called, it's a white paper, it's called Responsible, um, or responsible respectable, uh, research protocol. And that's all, it's all based on tribal sovereignty, tribal sovereignty, being respectable, things like that, you know? And then, uh, we have a lot of those roles and plays. Um, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I try to be aware of that and yeah, that's the whole goal of the podcast is to let people have that opportunity to uplift their own voices, you know? Yeah. It's definitely getting its attention, that's for sure. You know? And, um, mm-hmm. And it's just, um, you know, that old I, I, I probably shouldn't say it on this podcast, but you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat, you know, this kind of thing. Yeah. I think that's fair game to say, you know what I mean? There's, it just, uh, there, I think when there's, uh, when there's a common ground. When we talk about, um, stewardship, you know, different things like that, it's just, yeah, it's like I could talk forever, but, but I, I wanted to say one thing. You know, I was reading this article this morning that, uh, Wisconsin DNR has this forest recreational management on all state lands. And so one of the things that they, they were talking about how to best use, um, these areas, recreation, hiking, biking, different stuff like this. And so I was kind of reading through it, right? And, there wasn't anything about wild racing there, but they had things about, you know, uh, creating a trout, trout stream, uh, reserve, whatever, nothing. There's nothing in there about wild, not anything. Well, why couldn't they have a wild rice, you know, type of thing, you know, plan, you know. Interesting. Yeah. So I guess they, they segregate these things, you know, to put them in this category or that category is it don't work that way, you know? Yeah. It's all the land. It's all of it, you know, so why not? So they have this, um, if there's people listening, you can look it up, you know, and you could, uh, provide your comments on to it so you know how to best use those state forest areas, you know, recreation areas and Yeah, absolutely. If you could send me that link, that would be awesome. Yeah, so this, uh, yeah, so could send it, you can get it out there and to the public, whatever, and, they can, um, maybe some of them people be motivated to, make some comments. And, you know, I guess the more people we have are wasting concerns about wild race, but I think maybe the state will listen to us, you know? Absolutely. Because there isn't no protections. They say there is, but you know, people can do whatever, pretty much. Could you share some of the ways that everyday consumers are damaging or hurting wild rice? You know, that's, that's a really good question. You know,'cause. Because maybe, uh people that are listening to this podcast, maybe some of'em they already know what those problems are, but the ones, they know what wild rice is, and there's maybe people on this podcast don't know what it is. So what happens a lot of times is, like lake Rice, right. Rice beds, usually there's a lot of development around. And so you got these multimillion dollar homes, and there's could be a standard wild race out in there. They'll, they'll go and remove it. Hmm. That is definitely heartbreaking. Yeah. They go and remove it. So there's no, there's no protections. The DNR allows them to create a path to remove wild rice for the boats to get it out to their piers. But I mean, there is, there's peoples, they, and they might have 200 feet of beach frontage there, you know, lake frontage and there's maybe, maybe 10 acres of rice out in front of'em. They'll, remove 200 feet of that race just so they can have a nice place to water ski you know, right. Things like that. There might be some people listening out the podcast, you know, a lot of times, you got the wake boats, Is a big, big, big, a big concern. Not only, not only just for wild rice, but just for the lake health itself, you know, shore erosion. You know, it creates a lot of that. we grew up as a wake boating family, and I definitely had that conviction after I started learning about environmental stewardship for sure. Yeah. And I know some of them wake boats, they got these, uh, where you gotta fill the ballast. Yes. And then, uh, some of them, they had the inboard motor, the jet propulsion. Just to help, you know, make bigger waves. Well, I hope I didn't, I hope I ain't a friend. You being the, being wakeful family. No, I think, I think it's all really, I mean, it's really insightful. Yeah. Could you just, could you just leave us with a story, um, maybe there was something I wanted to share, we talk about wild rice. This is a, coming from a historical document. And this document I have is the annual report of the Secretary of War. And this was,, a year of--1880. And so they were looking for places to build these dams and create these reservoirs, right? And so this one surveyor, um, he talks about, this place, it's on a, on a river called the Tomahawk River in Lake. So it's, here's what he wrote, goes, there is a small Indian settlement between Lake Kawasan and Tomahawk where a few acres are devoted to raising corn and potatoes. A narrow margin of these planted would be flooded by the proposed dam, which would also drown out some quite extensive fields of wild rice covering several hundred acres. These exceptions I know of no injury that would be done to any private interests. Yeah. This is a pretty, um, so yeah. Wow. So those, those types of projects, you know, have been, they have been, uh, historical and we're seeing those, effects today. Yes. And seems to be still continuing in some aspects in regards today. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's pretty powerful. I definitely, I would encourage readers to rewind and listen to that again. That's crazy. Yeah. And that's pretty much the mentality today, you know? Yes. And I think that people who are harvesting mahnomen, that's just a separate community, a separate way of life. And so many people miss the understanding that this is all an intertwined, interconnected ecosystem. Yeah. Everything affects the other thing and vice versa. Yeah. So it really, it does inadvertently affect you no matter where you live. Yeah. No matter what you do. Yeah. You know, the majority are it's all about me, you know? It's not, uh, you know, it's what happened to the community. You know what, you know, back in the day, there was community, you know, there was, there was a, I, I guess, I don't know if you wanna say a togetherness, I mean, even me growing up, I remember family sharing, you know, different, you know, getting family get togethers hardly ever. You, you don't see that. You don't see hardly too much, you know, any anymore. It's all about what, what can I get and how much. Definitely. Well, I really, again, I really appreciate your insights and I'm very excited for people to hear your story and hopefully take home some inspiration to steward the land better, even if they're. You know, in a totally different region of the world. Thank you. Yep. Thank you, Hannah.

51:54

I know I say this every week, but thank you for listening to another episode of the Global Stewardship Podcast. I am very honored that Joe Grene came on the episode today to share with us about his life and about wild rice, real wild rice, and I have pasted the link that he was chatting about in the podcast description. If you want to go leave some comments encouraging his state to talk more about wild rice and protecting wild rice. And if you liked this show, please remember to leave a review. Those are always really helpful. or just send me some podcast guest recommendations. If you're a farmer or a food producer or a land steward, if you're out on the ocean fishing, you know someone who is. I would love to hear from you and keep this conversation going. I hope you guys have a fantastic week.