Overcoming Resistance: Embracing the Human Side of Modular Construction Innovation

Summary 

In this episode, Ryan Ware sits down with Ali Salman of Workspace Modular Structures, a seasoned entrepreneur and modular construction leadership, to explore the transformative potential of prefab and modular construction within the construction industry. They discuss how overcoming resistance to change and adopting a proactive mindset is essential in driving innovation and addressing major infrastructure challenges globally. The conversation highlights the crucial role of change management in the construction industry and how leadership development supports this transition.

Ali emphasizes the importance of productization in construction for scalability and improved market fit, underscoring the need for more disruptive leaders and entrepreneurs in the AEC industry. The episode also delves into how curiosity-driven leadership and continuous learning can empower professionals to navigate the human side of change management effectively. Listeners will gain valuable perspectives on integrating change leadership principles and innovative strategies into their construction business practices.

Whether you're interested in construction leadership development, modular construction innovation, or managing change in leadership, this episode offers practical insights and inspiration for leading change confidently in today’s evolving construction landscape.

Chapters 

00:00 Introduction to Ali Salman and His Journey
03:44 The Transformative Power of Modular Construction
11:49 The Need for Change in Construction Practices
18:57 Opportunities in Prefab and Modular Solutions
23:24 The Role of Technology in Construction
28:40 Future of Modular Construction and Industry Growth
39:40 Challenges and Opportunities in Modular Construction
57:28 Creating Better Communities through Infrastructure

Guest 

Ali Salman is a seasoned investor, entrepreneur, and operator building transformative companies across legaltech, franchising, and industrialized construction. As an active partner in Lawtiq.com, founder of Global Franchise Brokers, and CEO of Workspace Modular, Ali’s work sits at the intersection of innovation, scale, and real-world problem solving.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ali-salman-8a141312/

https://workspacemodular.ca/

Connective Consulting Group
Helping construction leaders simplify change, strengthen trust, and move forward with clarity.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Ali 0:00

I came into the industry as a problem solver, as like an entrepreneur, right? You know, we have a bug to solve problems, right? So uh when I looked at the industry, industry is a status quo right now, right? Doesn't matter where we go, status quo is not easy to change because they're just comfortable. That's that's what they know, right? That's how it's been done, right? But that doesn't mean the new way of doing it, right? You know, uh is that that's not what they should learn, right? So I think that it's about relearning, unlearning, and what we call it, right? Like, you know, that industry really has to look at it, that hey, how are they building it? How they can build it better.

Ryan 1:13

Uh up in the great white north of uh Alberta, Canada. So um Ali, how are you doing?

Ali 1:20

I'm doing amazing, Ryan, and it's great to be joining you uh this morning from uh all the from Ohio, right?

Ryan 1:27

So yeah, well it's snowing here, so I don't know what it's doing in Edmonton, but I have a guess.

Ali 1:31

Uh you got it right. Your guess is pretty close by, and that's why I have this picture behind me. It reminds me that, hey, I have to go somewhere warmer.

Ryan 1:39

So right, right. Yeah, well, you snowbirds, right? You got to get down into the into the States. So, well, I'm looking forward to the conversation because you came across the my LinkedIn feed and started seeing you post about things that were very relatable to some of my passion. And I know you'll get into this. So before we dive into the episode, I know you're involved in a lot of different businesses. So just tell a little bit about yourself and then we'll dive into activating curiosity.

Ali 2:09

So, Ryan, uh, my wife told me once that I'm unemployable. Uh, so uh a kind of a seasoned serial entrepreneur uh came to Canada 20 years ago, uh, dropped out of a university because family comes from a business world, uh, really got into businesses, right? You know, did everything from running restaurants to uh basically like you know running a consulting firm. And then um once uh throughout my experiences as of today, uh I'm involved in private equity, cross-border mergers and acquisitions, uh, and uh foreign direct investment mandates, predominantly in Canada, Dubai, and India. But you know, Ryan, the most thing I'm excited about, uh, which wakes me up, I think that is more good work. But like what really uh excites me is uh my involvement with uh Workspace Modular. Uh I lead that company. It's a modular manufacturing, uh prefab modular manufacturing uh company. And we are based uh right outside of Edmonton and industrial area uh in Alberta and predominantly serve Western Canada. Uh hopefully we serve across Canada, uh, but right now mostly centered on Western Canada, right? You know, and that's what consumes me uh day to day. Uh a husband, dad, right, you know, try to get some workouts, but I don't think so. It's with busy life. It's it's it's it's tough. It's tough, right?

Ryan 3:36

Yeah. Well, you'll you'll find the time. I mean, you know, the dad part. Well, somebody once told me, hey, you the story about someone complaining about their lawn, and they're like, hey, uh, don't worry about your lawn, you're growing kids. Um so you'll find, you'll find the time. And and I appreciate you sharing the story. And I know, you know, the workspace modular is what sort of caught my eye. Um, but so many other fascinating parts of who you are and those things, like you said, that kind of wake you up in the morning and drive, you know, that that intrinsic motivation that you're having of like, hey, uh, I might be unemployable. That does not make me useless, right? Like I have something that I'm passionate about and and you're noticing it. So getting into the episode here a little more, then I always like to start with the first question being around, all right, Ollie, something caught your eye and you said that is a problem we're solving. What was that?

Ali 4:39

So, Ryan, uh, think about when we go back in history, there has been times in history fundamentally it changed the pace of progression and growth as humans, right? You know, that made a big impact. First time agriculture became industrialized, right? People using hands and their tractors came in, right? First time computer went from like, you know, being in five rooms to like this small chip, right? You know, because chips got so some discoveries are basically transformational for uh humans, right, across the world, irrespective of country, uh region, right? And if we really look at the practice and the construction method of prefab and modular, right? Let that be modular being like you know, cement slabs, let that be mass timber, let that be volumetric. Just the concept of doing construction in a prefab in a modular way, I believe is transformative to the infrastructure side, right? You know, um, because this approach can be, it's already applied, but it's not just mainstream yet. It has its own struggles, it has its own challenges. But you know, uh uh we we we are sitting in in in our offices and homes, and our homes are heated and hot water flows. It took years and years and years to get there. So I think modular and prefab is basically solving a huge problem in the world, uh, which in which is infrastructure. We don't have enough infrastructure, education, health, um, you say basically bridges and roads and all of that kind of things, right? You know, so um so it it has this very promising uh angle to it, and that's pretty much excites me the most. Uh we we mostly do panelized and volumetric, but you know, if you look at uh a lot of industrial uh commercial, uh like it's going like you know, big prefab, uh like you know, uh cement and like you know, uh so very different kind of building materials are getting used. But just this whole concept of prefab and modular being a huge problem solver that genuinely excites me. Because if we can solve infrastructure problems, we can solve health problems, we can solve education problems, uh, we can solve home less less problems, which is it's a huge in the urban centers across North America, right? You know, right. Uh so um, so yeah, I think that's what uh that's what sparked my curiosity, led me to this rabbit hole of Fab and Modular. And I loved it. Uh and I think um uh there is we're just getting started, right? I genuinely believe this whole movement, it's a very new, new uh uh uh thing for a lot of uh uh folks. Uh and and I think industry has been very traditional. Industry was, let's say, they were like, you know, doing it the old way, but the industry understands it that if they can really change, and like, you know, we talked about robotics, we talked about like you know automation. Uh imagine how one car plant can pump out thousands of cars. Why can't a housing plant cannot pump out hundreds of thousands of houses? And I think that's where we are going. Uh let that be houses, let that be modules for construction, hospitals, uh, schools, right? Mm-hmm.

Ryan 8:09

Yeah, so your your background is not from the industry, and that's I think what made it, you know, made it unique because you saw a problem where it not only impacts the industry, the AEC industry, right? Like infrastructure impacts every single person on the face of the planet somehow, some way. Um, and you talked about like a lot of the challenges I know we have here in the States and also there in Canada, um, with that with the housing. There's just not a supply, you know, line to to fill. If you want to lower and make things more affordable, there you have to increase the supply. It's just basic economics 101. But we haven't been able to achieve that, I think for a lot of reasons over the years, be it people willing to invest into it, a lot of times um it falls into there is not the labor force to do the work, let alone those willing to develop new housing. Um, the thing that really drove post-World War II for a lot of us was, you know, the housing boom. Um, and everyone could afford it. Well, the supply was cranked up. Um, but there was a major change that shifted in that time frame of how we were building as well. Um, we were still doing some stick building and things, but the material was shifting. So you hit on some things that I think are very intriguing is that yes, there is an old way of doing it, but situations have now shifted to where we have to re-evaluate how we're building. So you spotted it as an individual that said, this isn't just one person being impacted, it's it's much larger. Something that has always struck me within our industry is you know, people are always like, oh, the industry's slow to change. You got an outside perspective here. Is there an obstacle and barriers for other people to even recognize these solutions, these methods of construction as a viable option for them as well?

Ali 10:18

So, Ryan, uh I came into the industry as a problem solver, as like an entrepreneur, right? You know, we have a buck to solve problems, right? So uh when I looked at the industry, I think you hit the nail uh right there that industry is a status quo right now, right? Doesn't matter where we go, status quo is not easy to change because they're just comfortable. That's that's what they know, right? That's how it's been done, right? Um but that doesn't mean the new way of doing it, right, you know, uh is that that's not what they should learn, right? So I think that it's about relearning, unlearning, and what we call it, right? Like, you know, that industry really has to look at it that hey, how are they building it? How they can build it better, right? Um, I'll give you a simple example, right? We talk about different demographics across the world get impacted. We have all seen this in famous video of China assembling a hospital intakes. So see, okay, so see, when the necessity hits, we do it. Okay. But then, but then we get comfortable and we go back to status quo, right? You know? So I think that's what my perspective was that no, why are we going to keep going back to status quo and go to traditional methods, right? We need infrastructure. Um recently, like, you know, when we just look at uh a densification of the cities, it's unsustainable for the cities to keep growing like this. Right. I mean, taxes are crazy. So they need density. Now, how are you gonna build in density, right? Uh uh you cannot really go and build sign built. It just doesn't make sense, right? You know, you disrupt the whole neighborhood, right? Um so uh when we talk about aging demographics, every day just in Canada, 1,000 people become seniors. They want to live close to their families, they want to live uh like you know in mother-in-law suite or like you know, in the digital small prefab. So my point is that there is niche market needs which prefab and modular can solve. Um and that's where the opportunities and that's what traditional industry has to really come out of this trailer mindset and say, hey, we can solve big problems here, right? And I think it's more, I I genuinely believe, Ryan, that this industry needs more disruptors and entrepreneurs. Right? Yeah uh who can really come and solve these problems and create solutions around it. Because it's like saying that we have a Lego. We always say we have a Lego in place. So then what can we build with that, right? You know, okay, what kind of problems can we solve with it, right? And I think that's where uh uh it it kind of opened up uh like you know a door for me to really see that this is upside in this whole uh in the in this whole industry. And then I also believe that uh across the world, we have the playbook which already exists, right? Because in Europe, playbook exists, right? You know, so you cannot tell me that Ali this cannot be done, right? That's BS, right? You know, right. We don't want you don't want to do it because you're just too comfortable doing the way you know how to start, right? Uh uh most modular manufacturers today are technically not an assembly line, still, right? Right. Because uh because the way we built it, right, you know, is still again, even industry itself, industry has an excellent solution, but industry itself needs to transform a bit. And that's where we I think we are headed, where uh repeatable uh panelized walls are getting pumped out by robots, right? You know, uh your robots are not calling in sick, uh, they are on time, they are on schedule. Uh there's a whole other debate about how many people will lose their jobs, but I think we also have to talk about how many new jobs will be created, right? Yeah. So the new labor force. 100%. So if we I think train our labor force to really be the future labor force, right, you know, and uh and how we can build sustainable, uh fast, and affordable, which market can definitely compete with the site built, right? You know, then I think uh uh this is where like you know the uh uh the opportunity exists in a marketplace, right? You know, because as we talk about uh different market segments, a lot talk about schools. Right. Every region in the urban center, when it's not sustainable for them to keep building new schools, a lot of them do modular extensions to existing schools because when the neighborhood matures up, they can take out those extensions because uh the kids move out of that neighborhood. And that's what the densification idea is that cities really cannot afford uh uh if they keep building in a traditional way. And then when we talk about rural areas, right? Rural areas, you cannot drive five framers, middle of nowhere, right? Feed them and then say, hey, can you put up this stick and right now with minus 10 or minus 15 weather? So I think across the board, there are solutions. If someone comes into this industry with solutions, either from inside or outside, I think there's a hell of money on the table, and there is a lot of opportunity on the table, uh, because that's where I genuinely believe that's where this industry is standing as a Yeah.

Ryan 15:45

I mean, you brought up a lot of great points. And I want to back up because I want to start with this area of you know that resistance. It's the human the human mind doesn't like new things. Like it's it's built to run from those things. And I love that you said relearn because that's an area, you know, being a coach and change management coach and focusing in that area, like understanding how we think about it as individuals, but also as other humans, to see it like hey, this isn't about making what you're doing irrelevant. We're not saying that you're wrong. We're not saying that it was ever wrong. It's just the situation that we find ourselves in today, the need for greater supply, the need, as you said, for rural areas where people may not want to live and there is no contractor, there is no subcontractor pole, like those humans still need an answer, like need something to address it, and it can't be, you know, an enormous cost to give them what they're you know, what they need from a necessity standpoint. So from an industry side, we have an opportunity to go address a lot of those by reframing how we think about these solutions. And I I would say that you know, prefab is not, it's not a new thing. I'm almost 50, but like we've been talking about it a long time. I worked at a precast plant before going to architecture school, and it was there my whole life. I was watching them ship out beams and panels as I'm growing up. I'm like, this is fascinating. Like they're building this in a plant and shipping it. So it is a mindset shift in from all aspects. I I don't know how you think about this, but the contractors themselves, yes, we need to provide them, you know, a better way to work when they're out working because that will make it more attractive and getting people attracted into the industry. Like they don't want to be freezing, they don't want to have lunch on a curb, they don't want to go to the bathroom in a Portageon from a construction site standpoint, as well as those educational pieces of like, I remember the trailers sitting on on the site at at high school, and some classes were were in those. And it felt it didn't feel right. Well, today's solutions are far more advanced and attractive that doesn't say like, hey, you're second citizen here, it just says we we see the need and we're giving you uh another way to to learn. So I know I know I'm saying a lot there, but it's a mindset, right? Like mindset. There's there's some mindset shift. So with those obstacles, like I you don't come from the industry, so I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Like when those obstacles are sort of being thrown in, how are you staying in that conversation, helping them see the opportunity to relearn, as you just said.

Ali 19:01

I think that's an excellent point, right. You know, I think um uh we really need to understand that our our obstacles are not uh they are not challenges, they are opportunities, actually. This is just a mindset shift there, right? I'll give you one example. When you built it, even in today, when you built it inside a factory, you actually built a better product, period. Right. Uh you're not out there standing on a ladder, like you know, so I think uh there's a lot of weather, a lot of other logistics, right? Um the way industry does QA, right, and how we communicate it to the end user. Uh often people will talk, uh GCs or developers will say, you know, I was trying to call my manufacturer, like, you know, I don't know where which stage my building is at. Is there nothing has been done, or is it like, are you finishing in TD or are you doing flooring, right? Um and we I I see a tremendous opportunity because you know, uh homes today uh are still sold to humans. Humans are we are all emotional buyers, right? You know, okay.

Ryan 20:07

Right.

Ali 20:08

So when we talk, when we go back in how industry thinks, right, you know, still over 90% of the factories have QA in a traditional paper format, right? Right. Uh even they have a four people bloated design teams, they're not using AI, right? It's like, you know, I always think I'm not saying I'm an Elon and I come to X and I take over and I say I'm gonna fire like, you know, half of the factory. I'm not trying to say that, but actually that's what factories are today. That's what the industry is, right? You know, they're not realizing that we have tremendous opportunity to solve these uh challenges, turn it into uh like chat challenges, turn it into opportunities because that's what industry, that's what market wants it, right? So I think when you're building a building a structure or a home for someone in a factory, now imagine that like you know, in in real time, the end user, Sally, she's she has her dreams, that's her nest for life. She has her dreams associated with it, right? You know, you're communicating through a proper tool, proper like, you know, uh uh like you know, project management, where they're when they're basically she can see exactly what's happening with her structure, right? You know, so there's a hell of opportunity inside the industry where because industry does it in a certain way, and you know the answer I always got, hey Ali, we have been doing it for 30 years. It works. Don't come and fix it like this. And and and and I'm like, and I'm like, fine, right? You know, okay, but but if I can tell you you are you are becoming faster, you you're you're basically creating less headache for yourself, right? So I think uh uh project management to communication to like you know how the whole flow runs, right? There's a science and math behind it, right? And technology helps us do that. that. So I think that's where the because the industry inside says, see, the biggest challenge is there is a huge deficit of human capital who guides what experience. So that's the problem. Right. When you go to when you go to operations VP or a manager or someone who's been doing it for last 20, 30 years, they say, hey, this works. That's how we do it. And it has always worked for us. Right. So that's where the challenge comes in, Ryan. And that's where the opportunity comes in the industry. Right. For for for so when I saw it and I said, you know what, why are we not running two ships? Why are we not building the similar product? One car plant doesn't pump out 50 different models. They focus on 10 specific models so they can scale, right? So I think there is a uh that's where the opportunity is when you come in as an outsider, you look at status quo and you say, no, imperatively healthcare is here. You know, like you know other sectors are here, but why prefab is operating at this technology level, right? And I think that's how you start talking to the stakeholders from the guy who is doing craning to the guy who is doing piles of foundation to someone like you know who um who is doing even trusses as a roof component, right? You know, how we can use technology, how we can get better. So when we go and sell our product, I I think I think one of the interesting things is industry says that you know uh uh we are not growing right we are not growing as we should. Right. I personally say you have not given a market enough compelling reason that they come knocking at your door. This is a different difference in approach. We don't have to keep saying the why are we not growing. I think we really have to understand it what are the solutions like you know if you have a better product out there, Ryan, you don't need to sell it. I think industry needs to create a better product. I think a lot of companies are doing it. We are all in different journeys uh there is amazing companies out of US who are working on like you know repeatable scalable models right but but I think we are not like no one has been able to nail it down and that's where the opportunity exists. And that's why we see uh a lot of talent coming in from outside because they see an opportunity in prefab and modular but they're also not thinking from a status quo perspective right and I think that creates the room uh uh to really solve problems in the industry right you know and I think I'm a genuine believer that when I sit across the table uh I have massive respect for people who have been on the ground and doing it for the last 20, 30 years. Right. And but I think at the same time that respect also goes the other way that you know if someone is saying that use technology and use AI on how we can let's optimize our floor time, right? That's where the opportunities exist to improve, right? You know so I think uh uh uh both the status quo and uh the new way of doing it, right, you know, has to be merged to find this middle ground, right? You know, because see if we don't solve it or we don't solve it, we are losing on an opportunity to really grow this industry. I think the industry deserves to be grown at 3 to 4x of what the current Kagger is in North America. I think we can genuinely get to 25 to 30% of the market right there's an opportunity there. But we just have to think like a problem solvers. We don't have to blame outsiders and say hey why they are not buying prefab and modular well we may not have the right product market fit yet as an industry where industry where market can tell you hey I'm gonna build 80% of the houses prefab and modular because it just doesn't make sense for me to build it like you know side build because what you guys have came up you have came up with a tractor when I was using my hands. Right.

Ryan 26:13

Yeah I you know you said a lot of things that kind of again just spark the curiosity in me and and I come from this industry but it's just thinking through again other ways of addressing the other humans who are feeling like hey you're trying to take something away from me um so the status quo you know I think a lot of people in the industry will hear status quo and they think like well you're just saying you know I'm too old or I'm this right that everyone goes through their own iteration of what they heard. And I think you know it's because one we like to control things ourselves. We want to make the choice ourselves and in this situation with these solutions like that status quo means clarity because it's worked every time for 30 years. And there's a problem with all of that in the sense that it can work for 30 years but the one time it doesn't then what? Because situations have changed and that is you know NASA had problems with that to where there were signals that things weren't going to go well but the minute the space shuttle didn't return yeah like it worked for 30 years ahead of that or 10 missions ahead of that and that one time that it didn't it cost um you know lives and a lot of reputation. So status quo I look at it from a standpoint it isn't wrong. Again it's just we have to understand that clarity came because we've done it so many times. And as you said it's like I think what I'm hearing from you and this is how I think too is like there isn't a silver bullet to this. It's not an answer for everything, but it can start to answer enough things that it raises all levels. We're able to start addressing housing shortages and affordability and getting things into rural areas as well as other parts of cities. So like you said it is a critical problem to solve.

Ali 28:30

And you've said hey I'm getting involved into this right it's a i i i I I think status also exists on all levels not just in private like in a private sector public sector as well look at the building codes and look at like you know how many municipalities like provinces states operate in building codes I think there's also a comfort level there that that's how we have done it. This is how the codes work we don't want to change it right you know I think there is also a status on that side as well so private sector also has that challenge right you know uh uh but there is a status quo within private sector as you talked about it so I think on both sides public and private both right you know but until it gets disrupted right and I think you know Ryan what worries me what worries me is that when I look at a factory in China they are moving at 15x the space they can build an electric car cheaper than Tesla. So that tells me that it's not that it's not doable it's doable but we really have to think outside of the box and overcome the status quo here. Right. Right? Because that's where the disruption will happen. Because if if the builders and developers manufacturers this whole ecosystem doesn't realize is it that they're gonna build a local made solution in North America I can see us like you know our whole dollar store is 90% China. I don't I don't mind saying like you know I'm probably gonna see like 90% of the homes are from China, right? You know, okay. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing but we as as an ecosystem will lose its its ability to be a builder and a manufacturer. How uh a lot of manufacturing moved out of North America and you know we talk about like you know um uh digressing in politics and stuff like that but a lot of the a lot of the politics about like you know bringing Mac manufacturing to to to US to Canada Canada is also like you know working majorly to have a local locally done manufacturing right you know let that be building materials let that be like you know prefab more volumetric so I think my my genuine thing is that if you won't gonna solve it someone else will solve it and they're gonna eat the lunch. So get to it work together right if if if the Ford if like GM can be built in North America America right specifically to state I think this presents a tremendous opportunity for us to really build really amazing solutions which are North American made and cater to basically our own like you know uh uh like you know uh population so I think um there's that there is that now last thing I would say that when it comes to changing status quo uh we also have to think that like you know um technology and AI is one of the biggest transformational uh things which has came up in the last 10 10 like 15 15 you said 20 years internet came in changed the world and now AI is on its purge right you know I really think that industry has to look at it how it designs how it optimizes the floor how it communicates with the stakeholders right you know and I think that's where the opportunity for improvement is right because that's where the robotics will lead us right um we talk about a lot of markets don't have the right labor right there's a genuine shortage of labor or um uh if the labor is unsustainable I mean I'll talk about it a Canadian government has recently announced like you know they want to build an Arctic infrastructure right you know they're gonna build a new base uh they'll have multiple like you know uh uh like you know infrastructure like you know they really want to put it out there now imagine you're gonna fly three four five thousand people in middle of nowhere right you know in Antarctic and so that's where I think robotics can come in that's when AI can come in which can converge and we have already started to see factories implementing robotics right you know um and that's where I think genuinely believe that uh the the the the intersection of really we are at solving this problem at a scalable level and it could be the hybrid approach uh right I think uh sometimes to disrupt status quo it's not that you basically like you know uh change like you know flip the whole script right you know I think it's a one degree of change why don't we think like this if builders are building in site build right okay instead of doing everything on site now they're using panelized approach I think that itself if the industry moves from site to panelized that's a huge win right because now uh you kind of got closer to the end you end goal right and then eventually you get to like you know more complete prefab uh like you know I think one of the biggest things is that uh in in in in Canada and most of states as well we don't send the wall uh systems like you know interior finished right you know uh it cracks it has other challenges right you know so those are the opportunities right you know whoever solves those things will genuinely uh right like can bring a uh solution to the market which is scalable right uh so I think um I like like I think using new techniques using AI using technology right you know these are some of the tools which can really which can really help us solve these problems and take a product to the market with market genuinely gets excited about right I think that's what also prefab um uh we have we are I'm a big believer about design right I think you're being an architect background I always say that uh uh don't just keep building trailer like you know I mean we can be so creative with the design why aren't we not telling that story to the public right we can build we can build pretty cool things right you know okay uh not with a crazy cost right you know keeping the cost side low but we can build some some interesting designs out there and I think that's what and design is not just from exterior it's like just a whole inside functionality side right uh how does the flow works right you know and then uh and I think you you said commentary right you know how schools used to be like you know uh kids felt like they're sitting in a trailer it's now today uh if there's a lot of schools which are getting built modular you cannot see the difference if it's modular with side build because they're built with an intention if you're built with the right intention that I don't want to create just like a trailer for someone to crash up there a construction worker. For them that's how prefab and modular was born as well. Right? So I think it also our roots are also a problem because we go back to those roots and say, hey, this is what we are known for. But yes, I mean this is how we got started but the future is so bright we can build uh like you know we talk about when Canada allowed uh in mass timber they recently announced to add more flow so I think um we can genuinely build uh bigger uh better infrastructure with better designs uh and then and we're getting there right you know uh it's just that sometimes I feel the way a little bit slow but I think that's how our that's how entrepreneurs feel as well that you know we want to solve this problem today or tomorrow.

Ryan 36:06

Yeah. Well I mean it is to be fair it is taking us a long time to get the acceptance and keep talking about mindset because it is so important with this but I think you said something important like the reality is I guess I'm not a fan of the word disruption because I think a lot of people hear it as this is going to take more work and energy than I normally have to where you know that status quo and that thing that I've always known you know your brain sits into a couple different systems and that one is the one that moves fast. So you used the other word which was opportunity and it's hey you can if you want control you can make the choice to say that this has gotten me to this point but in order to not be completely upended by someone else's decision I can become an active participant in relearning not not falling into the trap of um the curse of knowledge like the curse of knowledge is like I've always known this so therefore you walk in a room and think everybody knows it or whatever and that's it's just you know it's too valuable to let go into that area of curiosity of saying okay this is this is new I've never delivered in this methodology before um relearning about ourselves and that perception that we've had of what the word modular means versus kit apart all the way through modular as you're saying that like there's so many options with that kit of parts to assemblies to panelize to um other types of solutions. My personal feeling is the answer is every project's different just as it's always been but you need to change how you're asking that question at the beginning of how can I build this and exploring those areas of opportunity to pull prefab in like you're saying to advance some of those um some of those solutions. You've also alluded to and I know this is a challenge I walked into a factory well I think it was like 2019 or whatever and the first thing I noticed was a folder with handwritten notes sitting on the side and I was like well what is that for and that's how we document how it's going through the factory and I was like yeah that doesn't work for me. So there is this gap getting factories up to how much automation should it take, how standardized designs um should it take so how our minds work but also that factory piece because people have the perception of the trailer um past and what they've always seen. And then over here on the other side they have stories of Katara and why why do more factories struggle and you know we we know this too there's a cash flow challenge not only for traditional build but there are cash flow challenges for factories and because it takes a different approach in how that cash is going to move through through the project. You also alluded to technology gives more clarity to those who can't be in the factory to see how things are progressing. So I know there's a lot of those tools that are out there you know I guess that leads me to this question then is and I think you started to address this too of like you see an opportunity. You're looking at it from the outside you're saying I see these barriers I know maybe we're moving slow but um it's too important to not address and you said before hey if we don't address it someone else will so beyond that someone else even addressing it like what is it costing us right now by not having either party really addressing it? Like what do you what do you see as someone from that outside of what it is costing us?

Ali 40:27

What's it costing us right? I think that's a great example we go back to uh Ryan uh uh vacuums existed vacuums have existed for for like you know years right you know decades I would say right but interesting thing has happened right you know when the Dyson came and they looked at vacuums and really changed the design and functionality and created a multi-billion dollar company out of it I think that's how the industry has to think I'm not saying that what's that whatever they're doing it's working but it's working at this level why don't build a product which takes it here so when you talk about like you know uh opportunity and that's what I think the traditional industry we have to think like this that can we build a better product out there for our clients right right uh because generally industry says that why like you know why no one is like you know why we are unable to scale right you know but I think let's reverse that approach and take a product first approach right a lot of technology companies do that right you know let's just build something that people just use they cannot live without right so I think Dyson did that to vacuums that really like you know changed the way vacuums were seen and people paid like three times the price for that vacuum for Dyson. So I think uh so that is that opportunity but okay because often industry thinks that you know what well we're gonna improve the product it's cost prohibitive I get it it's cost prohibitive so why don't we build a better product which industry with market genuinely pays for right you know um now on the flip side of it too like you know when we talk about like you know problem solving as you talk as you like uh technology is the piece uh like you know AI is the piece but I will also go back and I would say that how we address our stakeholders right you know right because I think they are the people who will like if Sally buys a home from modular home and she has an excellent experience she will go and tell 10 people out there right so I think we really have to talk to stakeholders not just B2C B2B side as well like you know B2B uh side oil and gas companies mining companies right you know so I think we really need to address our stakeholders and what you said is that's where the opportunity is that um how we communicate with like how in like industry communicates with the external stakeholders right you know who who are also an important part of solving this big problem and like you know creating this opportunity right you know so right yeah I mean I think you know I think the vacuum discussion is a is an important one because it makes us sort of reframe and I know productization has been a big talk right like with industrialized construction and this convergence that's happening we've you know we've been talking about how can we get the solutions for construction to get through a factory right from design and through factory.

Ryan 43:29

So we talk about direct you know digital manufacturing or design for fabrication design for manufacturing as well so all of these things like like we've been talking about it for a long time and as as an entrepreneur you said like doesn't feel like it's moving very fast. For me it's interesting because you did not come from this industry. Yeah. And for you to dive into it, look at the problem and see it from a different perspective gives us that moment of pause. Where for those of us that are in it that that are comfortable, like what if we did reevaluate it? Like what would have to be different? All of those things start asking different questions. And I know that it is a very low margin business for architects, engineers, for contractors, and those new things, well, they look like risk. So bringing them into a project when, as you said, the stakeholder sitting there, you want to get feedback. Well, I think a lot of the slowness happens because we try it once and it didn't go the way the traditional went the last time. So we have that data point and we go against that. Well, the reality is, is like that's not the variables aren't the same. So you can't look at it from that standpoint. The first time isn't the benchmark that you want your stakeholder to feel. So you're going to find in the first time that you're trying some of these things that you've got to have a stakeholder that understands that and you're communicating it. You're driving clarity through communications, like you said, where they can see what's going on under the factory floor, that communication is happening more directly between all the parties. And because where people are coming into the project is going to be different timing. It's all about clarity. And that clarity is communication, but it's also communication from the start. Like, hey, you have never done this before, so don't expect it to be your best try. So you have an opportunity that each of these individuals that are coming in to work alongside with you or taking on any technology, anything in this convergence of like have the empathy. And I know this again, that it is risky, feels risky, it feels new, it will feel slower than it has before because you are in a different system of your cognitive state of like, oh, I've never seen it, so I'm not sure what the next move is. Well, clarity comes with each step forward. It doesn't come by knowing exactly how it's going to go when you've never done that. So I, you know, when you brought up the stakeholder, I think it's just fair that individuals who are trying it for the first time, like you just, I always say it, you've you've got to be empathetic to it. Um but we are human, so we defend. We go into defensive mode of again, I'm gonna control what I'm gonna control. And by holding on to whatever you're holding on to and control, that is actually taking it off the rails. That's actually causing a lot of the friction that is happening, you know, within the project team or within the project. So there is a coaching mindset, I think, that comes along with a lot of this change that might be happening not only in the factory, but in a construction team and a design team and and for the stakeholders. So I'm appreciative that you're having these types of conversations out there. Um, I'd love to see it go faster, not only for yourself, but I think for the industry, because I think we would be able to address a lot more problems that other humans are facing. And yeah, if we want to control it, we need to get more curious and start having more conversations like you're having, right?

Ali 47:36

I would always say this thing that I think we genuinely have to believe one thing that if we won't gonna improve, right, uh someone will eat your lunch. And I think if that doesn't motivate you, uh um, and that's how the business world works. So I think uh one of the things that I always tell the tell the folks in my industry industry that we don't have to change it in one day. We have to make uh it's like you know, it's one degree change, right? You know, and over a year, if you have improved by 10%, I think Dyson took a product and improved it by 20%. Product improved the design, improved the suction power, improved like, you know, the functionality, and they became a multi-billion dollar uh like you know industry, right? They waste the game. That's how the industry has to think that like, you know, what we are here, we don't have to like completely flip this script, right? You know, but how can we get 5% better? How can we get 10% better? I think this just perspective of getting better and being proactive than being reactive, right? I can tell you how much how many times industry has a lessons learned and they are they talk to the whole team across the company and say, hey, this is how it's got screwed up last time. What did we learn? How can we improve it? Let's document it, let's better track it right, you know. Um, and I think um uh if if the whole ecosystem comes together, right, um, and really uh like de simplify it. So, what do I mean by that? I think as modular uh and prefab industry, I think we have to productize our offerings. We cannot just be everything for everyone. I think that's also a wrong approach. If if let's say if uh hospitals are not getting built to an extent where you can go penetrate that market, then maybe that is a far-fetched uh like an idea versus let's say homes or a simple thing is I would say that like you know, uh additional uh ADUs. ADUs is a product which is should be 100% pre-vab and modular because it just the solution uh fits the market need there, right? So I think we as an industry, we really have to also think about uh productizing ourselves and bringing a solution to the client. Because I believe, Ryan, I I have a little bit of opposite thinker there, that instead of asking customers what do you want, tell them and give them what they need, right? That's where the mindset is right forward. Yeah, yeah. Because they don't know what they want, they are confused, give them five products, like, and that's how the car companies do it, right? You know, they don't say, hey, what do you want to build? Yes, you dream car. They say, hey, I have these four models, BMW X, this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing. What do you need? And then they give them a little bit of insight updates, right? I think that's how we should uh take an approach as a modular uh builder and an ecosystem. Let's productize ourselves and let's decent like simplify our offerings, right? Let's not be everything for everyone, right? And I think this will help us get uh gain market share faster. Meanwhile, we figure out how we want to eat and go after the bigger uh like you know market segment where we are uh everything for everyone. But I think as of today, um if we basically really self-reflect, right? You know, I think self-reflection is that uh uh focus on few products and bring those products to the market uh and really help solve those problems in the marketplace. Um uh I'll give you one example is like when we talk about rural communities or Arctic Canada or even Alaska, right? I think those markets are so ready for disruption because if you give them three models, which just consumes 50% less energy, and the windows and everything has less leakages and everything, it will just sell because the energy bills are crazy. So I think productizing it around certain markets and certain problems, I genuinely that's what we at Workspace are looking at that like productizing ourselves more instead of taking this approach of saying, what do you want to offer? Right, you know. So talking about like you know productization, uh Ryan, that like I personally believe that like instead of taking an approach that what people want and going to a client and say, Whoa, what can I give it to you? I think the approach should be that you take car manufacturers' approach. So you have five models you offer, right? And this, this, this, this, and you offer a little bit of a customization, but you don't flip the whole floor plan on, right? You know, and that's how so productizing your offerings and then taking those products to market, right? You know, I think that should be the approach that modular industry should take instead of being everything for everyone. Uh, I think that's where the opportunity, especially because when we talk about scale, when we talk about cash flow, that's the way to solve cash flow problems. That's what that's the way to solve the scalability problems because your factory cannot just spit out 100 different variations. It just cannot, right? So I think that's also being realistic. Industry has to be realistic, right? You know, that they don't want to go to a feast and famine cycle. Uh, if they want to have a consistent cash flow, then bring consistent offerings, right? You know, and imagine like, you know, car companies doing that, like, you know, they're building a different car for everyone. It it just they cannot build factories that hound it, right? You know, right. So I think that's where uh our way of looking at it uh to solve a scalability problem and to go after a bigger market segment, especially housing, just focusing on the housing side too. Um, every market needs certain, you know, certain R values, certain architectural engineering requirements. So build three, four, five products, and that's how big builders operate today, right? If you go to big builders in any subdivision, they don't tell you, hey, unless it's a custom builder, but most spec builders, they have five models. That's what they keep building it. And I think that's how the modular industry has to really think. Uh, I know they are doing it to an extent, but we often fall into the trap that we because to to duke the cash flow going, right? People like become people become journalists. When you become journalist, you cannot scale because your assembly line cannot spit out the same product after one another.

Ryan 54:08

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's you know, the getting into that productization, like you said. I mean, it's just designers love to have their fingerprint on things, and there is a need for that. There are there are solutions you can still do prefab with a hybrid approach with on-site labor to build, you know, unique designs that are a one-time design. And as you're saying, it's but that's not solving, you know, the housing um shortage. That's not solving, you know, the affordability crisis. That's not solving a lot of these problems that that you've been discussing. There is an opportunity that different factories are going to run slightly different. Some are going to offer their five things, like you said, from a housing. I was thinking about the builders the first time I went and looked at a at a site down in North Carolina outside of Charlotte. And yeah, it was pick a model. You know, I got to choose a few things if I wanted to, um, if I would have had that house built. But if I wanted the you know uniqueness, then it was customer. I needed to go find it in the supply chain. So I do think that, you know, we we tend to, it's all or nothing. And I think a lot of times there's a mis, you know, there's been some mis messaging from prefabrication companies over the years that have cost people, you know, heartburn and struggle and real money and other things that that has stuck with them. So they're hesitant in that area. But by pulling back and being curious, of like, hey, you can use penalized, like you said, there are kid apart solutions. There are modular things that go inside, you know, healthcare systems that the rest of the building is still, you know, not totally 100% prefab. So the idea is hybrid approaches, finding those partners, addressing your delivery model, your process, your thinking around the solutions that are available from a prefab side. But you know, you're you're addressing a lot with the modular side to get into some very critical infrastructure pieces like housing and like you said, the schools and the in the healthcare area. So my last question, Ali, then um before we wrap up is just you're a visionary from your view, you're looking out and you said, hey, if as an industry and as a world and a planet we're successful, what does that look like to you?

Ali 56:45

Excellent, right? And I think uh if we all uh look beyond our own personal interest, we can solve a lot of problems, right? You know, uh I think um uh if we look beyond our own egos and personal interests. So I think uh when we uh my motto is that Ryan, uh whatever uh however we came into this world, just leave it in a better shape form and do whatever in your capacity you can, right? Uh at the same time, I think uh I find a lot of joy in creating opportunities and employment, right? You know, when you have a business which employs 100 people, you are directly and directly contributing to 100 families' income. So I think that's a great motivation. So I think uh create solutions out there uh which provide better infrastructure and better like, you know, opportunities. So I think if we just provide better infrastructure that creates more opportunities for the kids, for the families, uh, for the communities. And I think that's kind of my long-term vision is that like, you know, be a small uh contributor uh to this, like, you know, a big opportunity out there. Because if you can create better communities, uh this will this will uh turn like you know, uh excellent creators, uh like scientists, uh people, engineers out there. Because if the kids get the right environment and the right uh uh infrastructure, uh especially living in uh Canada, Northern Canada has a huge problem with housing, right? A huge problem. Uh indigenous uh uh housing is really in bad shape. Uh that impacts a lot of problems that impacts families, mental health issues, right? You know, yeah. So I think that's what motivates me. And that's I really want to like, you know, uh contribute there and um and create more opportunities in terms of in terms of uh uh money and in terms of employment for other people, right? Uh because I always say that like, you know, what you earn in this world, you leave it here. So might as well earn it and put it to good work and then leave it in a better place, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan 58:53

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. I think again it goes back to the I always say this when somebody says what success looks like, every individual ties it back to impacting other humans' lives. And that is that that keeps me passionate about doing what I'm doing, and I know that does for you. Like, otherwise, what's the purpose, right? Like, what is the purpose if what we are trying to solve isn't making a community safer, us, a community better, giving them more opportunity to be what they want, to do what they want and live with all the basic necessities we want as humans. So I appreciate you spending some time with me. So um, so someone's listening, Ollie. They're out there, you know, they they've gotten their curiosity sparked a little more. You know, what are what are some action steps and things that you think that that individual should be taking on or looking at that might be able to help them um engage a little more on relearning?

Ali 59:53

I think uh I always believe that uh uh there's so much content out there, rhyme-free content out there, YouTube, uh, Netflix, podcasts, right? Podcasts like these, right? You know, uh like like like instead of consuming uh like you know, we doom scrolling and consuming like you know, mindless content, I think if we put 15, 20 minutes into learning and sparking curiosity, it doesn't matter what kind of content you consume, but you learn something every day, uh, I think it can be very impactful in their personal and professional lives. Uh so that's who I would say that because see, in in going back 30 years ago, uh we got newspaper and radio and TV had five channels. Today you have so many choices. So I think uh learning becomes easy. You want to learn something, you're motivated, you are you have an intent. Uh YouTube or podcast or online, uh AI, chat GPT, right? Even like it's a great learning tool, right? So I think uh uh but put taking out some time and dedicating towards your personal development is important, even as leaders as well, right? You know, okay, because if you don't spend time towards your own personal development, read, listen, right? You know, talk to people, be curious, right? You know, uh and I always believe that uh if anything you're curious about, reach out to people in that industry. A lot of people would love to talk to you, right? A lot of people would love to help you. Uh a lot of us don't ask. Asking never hurts, right? And it's okay to be shameless in your ask. It's okay, right? You know, what's worse you're gonna get? No, right? But it doesn't hurt to ask and say, you know what, I'm curious. Can you help me understand this process better, this system better, this industry better? How can I get started in this industry? Uh that's how I got. I I spoke to a lot of people, right? I knew a few people who were in this industry, and I learned, uh, I relearned, I I listened to them, what they were saying. Um, and uh it just it just came all together. And uh that's how workspace came together. So uh workspace modular, they can uh they can check us out there or LinkedIn. Um if they search my name, Adisalman, uh, reach out. I'll be happy to have a conversation and uh whatever domains, I can, I'm sure I can take out 15-20 minutes over a coffee and have a conversation. Uh so um, but I think be curious and always keep spending a little bit of time, even five minutes a day towards your personal development, it compounds and it helps you become a better human being and better family person, uh, and and basically overall across across all professional and personal fronts.

Ryan 1:02:29

Well, that's that's great. I think um, yeah, if you make the first choice to take back some control and and that starts, like you said, five minutes at a time. Just there is a lot of content, and it can feel like there's a tremendous amount of choices and also no choice. So, like as a human, it you know, just go into the exploration area, speak with gentlemen like Ali and others that are out there. Uh, don't look for the silver bullet, but stay curious, stay focused on educating yourself and developing. So, Ali, I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much. I look forward to kind of seeing where things go for you.

Ali 1:03:06

Thank you so much, Ryan. Really enjoyed the conversation and uh thank you to your listeners. Uh, I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Ryan 1:03:13

Yeah, thank you. So that is the episode with Ali Solman, who is the founding partner of Workspace Modular. I wanted to bring him on because I think it's fascinating that he did not come from the AEC industry. And he can look at it from a different perspective where he's saying, like, hey, I don't want to oversell. I don't want to be the answer to all things. I just want to address a lot of these areas of infrastructure that we struggle with in North America. So he sees a lot of the same challenges that we have. There is a there is a labor force that can't meet demand uh to create enough supply in the housing market. There is a labor force that can't meet the demand and the process that it takes to build healthcare and to take care of building facilities for education, which is our future investment. So I think, you know, the way he is approaching it and talking about it has some uniqueness to it and different than a lot of other companies and things that I've seen out into the marketplace who the messaging seems to be more of a it's like a silver bullet. It's the only answer there is. It's it's all of these things that end up creating our in our own minds that this is disruptive. And I don't want to take this on because it's going to cost me more time. It sounds risky. When the reality is, is like you can make the choice to take some time, educate yourself on what all the different layers of prefabrication are available, and all of those areas that you can really start to address your projects differently as a designer, as a builder. And with the future workforce that's going to be coming, they may want to be building differently. So there's huge opportunity for us to relearn, to understand status quo doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means that it was probably better at a certain situation. And now that those have changed, we should be reevaluating it more constantly and not seeing it as something that we did wrong or something that we're going to lose control of. So hope you enjoyed the episode with Ali. And I hope that you're able to continue to focus on those things that you see for yourself that, hey, that is a problem I really would like to get involved in trying to solve. So until next time, continue to Activate your curiosity and activate it and others. The Activating Curiosity Podcast is brought to you by Connective Consulting Group and Connective Coaching, part of the Curiosity Building Experiences. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss a conversation. Share the podcast with your network and help us bring more curiosity to the construction industry. Interested in becoming a guest or a sponsor? Visit us at activatingcuriosity.buzzbrow.com for more details. Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.