Transformational Leadership in Construction: Leading Change Beyond Transactional Practices

Summary 

In this episode Ryan Ware welcomes Andrea Janzen, founder of Ambition Theory leadership development for construction, to explore transformational leadership & its vital role in leading change in construction & change management for construction businesses. She shares her journey from corporate marketing to becoming a leader in construction coaching techniques, emphasizing how transformational leadership drives construction innovation & fosters inclusive, human-centered change environments in the construction industry. Discover how moving beyond transactional leadership can effectively address pressing construction industry challenges such as labor shortages & mental health, while empowering teams through construction leadership development. Learn practical insights & tools for change management and how adopting a human-centered approach can revolutionize leadership practices in this traditionally transactional field.

Takeaways:

• Transformational leadership focuses on guiding and inspiring teams rather than dictating tasks.
• The construction industry is evolving, with a growing emphasis on transformational leadership.
• Women in construction face unique challenges, but transformational leadership can create more inclusive environments.
• The shift from transactional to transformational leadership requires a change in mindset and openness to new ideas.

Chapters 

3:58 Andrea's Journey and Ambition Theory

15:42 Transactional vs. Transformational Leadership

21:22 Transformational Leadership in Practice

26:22 Future of Leadership and Industry

56:03 Conclusion and Call to Action

Guest 

Andrea, Ambition Theory Founder and CEO is a Certified Executive Coach with an MBA, the host of the Ambition Theory Podcast, a Forbes contributor and a top-rated speaker. She is passionate about coaching women in construction to develop themselves, set leadership goals and get results. Since 2018, Andrea has coached and trained over 1,000 construction professionals. Before becoming a coach, Andrea was a marketing leader that worked on some of the world's
best-known brands.

https://ambitiontheory.com/

Podcast:
https://ambitiontheory.com/the-ambition-theory-podcast/

Leadership Academy
https://nawic.org/women-leading-in-construction-leadership-training-in-construction

Connective Consulting Group
Helping construction leaders simplify change, strengthen trust, and move forward with clarity.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Andrea : 0:00

The difference is transactional is like that top-down. The leader knows everything and actually shares it downward with the team, the industry today. That's the dominant leadership style. Men are naturally more transactional. There's just more men in the industry today. So there's just more of that leadership. That's what's taught, what's reinforced, what's rewarded. The other side is transformational leadership. So instead of knowing all the answers, the leader's job is to guide, inspire, pull out the answers from the team, recognizing that sometimes people on your team know more than you do, and that's okay. Actually, have exponentially more resources available because you're leveraging the experience of all of those people versus you having to have all the answers.

Ryan: 1:29

Our own personal lives, to our business, our team. And uh it's going to be a great conversation. Um, I've had an opportunity to know this guest for a few years and get a chance to allow some of my former employees to work along with her, and I've had a chance to build my relationship with her. So the guest today is Andrea Jansen of Ambition Theory. Andrea, how are you?

Andrea : 1:56

Oh, I'm amazing. Thank you so much for having me.

Ryan: 1:59

Well, you're always such a positive attitude, and I love that. You're gonna bring a lot of energy. So um, before we dive into the show, I'd love for you to just tell a little bit about yourself.

Andrea : 2:10

Oh, that's a big question. So I am the founder of Ambition Theory. I'm also a mom, a wife, and Ambition Theory is it's my business. It started out as a leadership coaching business and has evolved into what it is today, which is a leadership development company that focuses on the construction industry, the built environment, and the engineering types of industries. And our main area of expertise is teaching people in a transactional environment transformational leadership skills. So teaching people how to inspire others instead of using that kind of top-down approach to motivate people, it's helping people invite their team in to contribute, rise to the challenge, show up with that positive energy, that contribution energy because we know it is contagious. So we basically teach people in these very technical transactional environments how to do that. And it started with kind of us becoming the experts in how to advance women in these industries.

Ryan: 3:13

Well, that is such an important thing for the industry to really focus on. First off, so glad that you're, you know, willing to be a part of the podcast, but to kind of share more with some audience members who maybe have never, or listeners who have never heard of your uh business and sort of this ambition that you've had. So my first question would really be around something must have triggered in your past, like, hey, there is something deeper here, and I'm seeing it. It it might be repetitive that you've noticed it. So what was it that you noticed and you said, hey, this is a problem worth solving and addressing, and I want to give my energy to it.

Andrea : 3:58

Okay, that is so we're going back to 2017 for this one. It was a very pivotal moment in time. And so at the time I was living in Canada, and there's this women's magazine called Chatelaine. So it's like a, you know, it has recipes, tips to organize your house, like fashion tips. It's not like a high thought leadership magazine. Um, and you know how sometimes like this is a print magazine. So this is back in the day when print was like still popular. Um, but they what they one of their marketing strategies was to like buy a list and send people like free copies of the magazines, I guess with the hopes that they'll like it, become a subscriber. So I get one of these in the mail. I had three young children at the time. The youngest was probably like three, four months old. I had kind of started this coaching business. It was really not going well. I was overwhelmed. I had my kids, I get this magazine, I bring it to the park, like they're playing in the park. I'm like opening it up to read. And they had done this study in Canada around women. They'd asked women about what their ambition was at work. And there was a stat in there that said two-thirds of women would not take their boss's job, even if it was offered to them. And yeah, so this was around the time when people started talking about like pay equity at work, like women in the workplace, the lean-in women in the workplace because like was like coming out. People were talking about this. And I was like, oh my goodness, how are we supposed to do to do something about this if two-thirds of women don't want to take a leadership role? Even if it's offered to them. I was like, wow, this is this is a problem. And that kind of sparked me. I love, I'm curious, right? I'm like, what is going on here? I'm motivated by that stat. I'm literally, it's looking at the mirror, right? I was a super motivated person. And I always believe kind of what was taught to me growing up is like if you work hard, you can have whatever you want. You could rise to any leadership role level in any industry. That's what I was taught. And kind of like the older I got, the real the realization when I looked around, I'm like, that is actually that's not the case for me. And that doesn't seem to be the case for everybody else. And then seeing that research was like, okay, what am I gonna do? So I got more curious. So I did more research. And what I kind of discovered was it wasn't that women didn't want to lead. It was like the picture of leadership at the time, which was 2017, wasn't appealing to them. It wasn't that women weren't ambitious. It was that the thing, the big shiny object, the thing that you could strive for wasn't in alignment with what they wanted. And so that is really where this concept of ambition theory came from. Um, because I also am like, what does the word ambition even mean? Right. So I looked it up in the dictionary, and it's the desire to achieve something, typically requiring determination and hard work. And so the picture of leadership, that something wasn't appealing to women. So the hard work wasn't worth it. So you're like, okay, I don't want to take that job. I don't want to work more hours, I don't want more stress. And so that's really the foundation of the work that we do at Ambition Theory is really figuring out what drives you, what's important to you, what is a worthy goal that you want to strive for that's gonna get you excited, energized, because achieving anything is gonna be hard, right? There's gonna be setbacks, roadblocks, you're gonna have to get through it. And if you don't have that bigger vision that's aligned to like what you care about as a person, you're not gonna make it. And so that is kind of that was the moment where it all kind of started.

Ryan: 7:41

I I mean, the stat is fascinating at two-thirds alone, just standing alone, right? Like two-thirds of women don't want that leadership piece, but it's that two-thirds, it's not appealing. So it's high energy for low, you know, outcome for them, low reward from what they were seeing it as, like that isn't that isn't driving me. That isn't in my ambition, as you said. So that's incredible that two-thirds would I mean 2017 may feel like a century ago. It's it's not even 10 years. So with that, you know, I'm thinking like, hey, you're you're sitting there, you're a coach, like you said, you've focused on the mindset, you've gone through the training and this this thing sparks of like we have an an entire half of our population, not you know, North America, that is not feeling energized about their opportunity. So I since we really focus on on the construction industry, and you know, for for you as well as myself, and I take that as architecture all the way through engineers and and contractors. But like what was it where you were going, yeah, I'm gonna dive into construction because it's such one, it's a different type of industry, and we we know it. I mean, not nobody's really great at change, but here's this industry over here that's been building, you know, the same way for hundreds of years. As you said before, it's very transactional, and I'm sure you'll get into this, but like the numbers of women that actually are in the construction side, now A and E is different, but construction itself is such a low percentage. So, what drove you and said construction? That's that's the focus.

Andrea : 9:44

That's such a great question because I did not grow up dreaming about this industry. Like, like most women that work in this industry, I kind of like to think the industry chose me. I did not choose them because I wasn't really exposed to it as a possibility. So I used to work in corporate marketing for consumer products before. So nothing to do with any of this. And so I started my journey, and people always told me, like, I so I created this workshop. It was called What Drives Your Ambition. And at the time, the company wasn't even called Ambition Theory. It was just Andrea Jansen coaching. Um, and someone had told me in like a small business networking group, oh, you should speak. You should speak at conferences to get the word off the ground about your business. So I think I had done one free workshop at the local chamber of commerce in my city. And my husband actually works in construction, and his company was sending women to the groundbreaking women in construction conference that Engineering News Record puts on every year. And so he knew I had this women's workshop. I was trying to get it off the ground. So he sends me this email. He's like, Oh, look how amazing my company is. They're supporting women, they're sending them to this conference. Here you go, Andrea. And so I was, I was again curious. I'm like, what is this conference? Like, what are they talking about? Who are the speakers? I'm like, this is I'm just curious to learn. So I go to the website, I look at the speakers, and I see on one of the afternoons there was a TBD slot in the schedule. And I called the conference and I asked them if they wanted a women's leadership speaker. And they said yes. And and so I went to the conference, and this was like I was on the East Coast. I had to fly, it was in San Francisco, I had to fly all the way across. It was in Canada at the time. So it was a long journey for me to get there. I had to pay for myself to be there. And they gave me this little tiny breakout room. And actually, that was my introduction to construction. I actually didn't really know anything before I presented at this conference. And there was this moment where I got there early. I was so nervous. Like I printed off worksheets for everybody. They told me, you know, 50 people will be there and 50 worksheets. I it was such, I was so prepared. And I got there and the room's already full. I was there 15 minutes early. And I was like, oh, these must be from the presentation before me. They're gonna leave. Then I'll, you know, put my hands on the chair. My people will come, the flow will go. And nobody left. And then more people just kept coming to the point where like they were sitting on the floor, they were standing in the hall. Then the organizers like just propped the door open and put chairs in the hallway. And even before the presentation started, I was like, I think I'm on to something here. And so I did the presentation. I had to throw out the handouts. We didn't do the handouts. There wasn't enough. Um, there wasn't even anywhere for people to write. Um, threw out the handouts, did the presentation, and really it went super well, engaged with the audience. They, it really landed with them this concept of like figuring out what drives you. And I got clients from it. So some of them signed up for my program, but I was still working with, you know, healthcare, banking, all these industries at the beginning, just trying to get it off the ground. And then I was just looking at like who are the clients, and about 60% of them were from the construction industry. And so I was taking again a small business marketing course, and they gave us a challenge. They're like, look at your clients, pick one segment, focus on that segment for 90 days and see what happens. So that was how it started. How it started. Yeah.

Ryan: 13:22

So finding that niche from a business, right? It's a go-to-market strategy. The niche is really this construction because 60%, again, we're back into that percentage. That's a that's a high number, again, of people who are like, hey, I see an opportunity for me to work with a coach, which in the construction industry it's not looked at very highly. Like, I don't need help. We talk about mentorship, and I know we can get into this, but like on different terminology, but like coaching is a different, it's a different thing. Like in the construction industry, a lot of men will be like, I don't need help. I know how to deal with this, I know how to handle it. And we, you know, I had Angelo um Suntrees on here, and we talked about that. It was supposed to be rough and tough and extraction. Well, asking for, you know, help from a coach, a partner from a coach, and working with a coach is not a sign of weakness. It's actually strength. And to see 60% of your the group you're you're talking about uh coming to you are like, hey, I know I can do more. And this goes back to ambition. I'm driven by it, they're personally driven by it, and you're for you, it's I'm coaching the person, I'm coaching the human, right? To find that. So it's helpful to kind of understand because like you said, you didn't you didn't have the ambition to go towards an industry, it was to go towards solving a a larger problem that the industry had. So there must be, you know, since we're talking about mindset and an industry that again is struggling with change, there must be some some obstacles and barriers that you've seen or things that are brought up routinely where someone's looking for that, you know, support and partnership that someone else hasn't seen. Someone else, they're not getting the support, they're not getting the buy-in to do this. Yeah, what so what are those obstacles and barriers that are, you know, you just see on a on a daily basis?

Andrea : 15:34

So I'll go back to something you said, right? In the construction industry, we're like, we know everything, right? Like I've been here for 20 years, like I don't need help. And I think the leadership model that we teach is like transactional versus transformational leadership. And so the difference is transactional is like that top down, right? The leader knows everything and actually shares it downward with the team. And it's really like they tell the team what to do based on their experience, their knowledge, they're seen as the expert. So that is, if you look at the industry today, that's the dominant leadership style. And what's interesting, research shows men are naturally more transactional. So there's there's just more men in the industry today. So there's just more of that style of leadership. That is what taught, that's what's taught, that's what's reinforced, that's what's rewarded, right? So the people that get promoted into those leadership roles are the ones with lots of experience, the degree, um, like that the ability to tell people what to do, right? Like those are the skills that are rewarded, and those are the people that are usually promoted into leadership roles. So on the other side of the spectrum is transformational leadership. So instead of knowing all the answers, the leader's job is to guide, inspire, and actually pull out the answers from the team, recognizing that actually sometimes people on your team know more than you do, and that's okay. That's actually wonderful because you can actually activate that knowledge. And what happens is you actually have exponentially more resources available to you because you're leveraging the experience of all of those people versus you having to have all the answers. So that's the transformational approach. Women, research shows women are naturally more transformational. Doesn't mean men can't be transformational, women can't be transitional. We teach it as a spectrum, right? And actually the industry, you need both, right? Sometimes you need to tell someone this needs to be done today, and that's it. Other times it's about that collaboration, that inspiring, that sharing the vision. So I think the biggest barrier is that the standard today is transactional. And the barrier to like actually opening up that potential is that I have to have all the answers. I do have all the answers. That's how I got here. And saying I actually want some help in my growth, it it's it's hard to come there. And it's not this kind of like acceptable thing because people haven't seen the model. People haven't been exposed to it. And it's not that I I honestly don't think people really do this on purpose. It's like you don't know what you don't know, right? Like you don't know these opportunities exist. You don't know this could be a different way. You don't know there's another way that you could lead if you've never been exposed to it. I think that's the biggest barrier is the exposure.

Ryan: 18:17

Yeah. You know, when I think about the industry, in a lot of ways, people will grow through the trades and then get into the office. Or, you know, when you when you look at it from I've been in the trades and my whole life has been about output. How much output am I getting out of myself? I'm I'm, you know, putting metal studs up, drywall, whatever it is, they take that and bring it internally because they're now monitoring that, because their whole life is about this transaction of procurement of materials to the output that's happening and how quickly they go into that schedule. Doesn't mean it needs to transfer to that leadership piece, as you're saying. And I can see another part of construction that's very difficult is most companies that's kind of starting construction don't make it five years. And the in in you know the states, it's and I know you're from Canada, which you know, we could talk about the World Series. I was hoping I was pulling for your hand.

Andrea : 19:24

I do I have lived in the US for the last like almost four years. So I do understand the market here.

Ryan: 19:31

Wanted to see Toronto, but backing up, the the transactional piece is how do we make money? How do we, you know, they have cash flow challenges, they have all these challenges, whether they're GCs or uh subtrades. So even when they look at their business, they lead transactionally, even though the business is transaction. And I'm wondering, it's like getting their mindset around leaders. From a transformational piece actually strengthens that transactional piece where the output without burnout, right? Output doesn't have to equal burnout by anybody, can increase by a transformational leader. So, like you said, it's that that barrier, and I'm I just wanted to kind of frame it in this way of like, I think our and men are probably far more transactional. The the inspiring piece, the willingness to say, hey, I don't know it, and I'm okay being wrong in this idea of mistakes in an industry that's very risk adverse and lawsuit after lawsuit or cash flow problems and all of those, that the transformational sort of becomes this huge opportunity to address a lot of those things. Is that something that you've seen success when people break down those barriers and are willing to be that and take on the transformational that now their business is actually improving?

Andrea : 21:05

Everything you just said. And what's interesting, I think a lot of times people, when I explain transformational leadership, they're like, oh, Andrea, it just sounds like sunshines and rainbows. Like, but like we are building something. There is deadlines, like you said, there's cash flow, there's all of these things. It's not like throw out the transactional, right? It's almost like I look at it like, could we sprinkle some transformational leadership into those procedures? Right. It's not that the procedures are bad. You actually do need the procedures. But when I think what happens is people lean on the procedure as a leadership tool. So, example like overtime. I'll give you an example of overtime, right? Okay, we're behind, we need overtime. Okay, the transactional approach is we're behind mandatory overtime this weekend. Everybody, here's the hours, here we go, right? And then what happens on Saturday? Is everyone pumped, ready to go, giving it their all like maybe, maybe not, right? Whereas the other the transformational piece is like, yeah, that's a real thing. We got to get this done. There is a deadline. We got we got to work over the weekend. Okay, hey, inviting people in, what are you building? What's the big picture? What's the long-term opportunity with the owner or the general contractor or whoever your client is in this situation? Inviting people into that, helping them see that bigger picture, helping them feel like they're contributing to something bigger than themselves. And if you know what drives your people, if you know what excites them, sprinkle that into it as well. Like let them know. Like give them a task that's gonna inspire them, that's gonna motivate them, that's gonna make them feel like it's aligned with what they care about. And then instead of people begrudgingly showing up on Saturday, they're rising to the challenge. Let's get it done. They're probably getting it done in less hours. So that's an example of how you can fix that. The other one is a change order, right? A change order is a procedure. And a lot of times what I've seen, the default is okay, there's a change. We fill out the form and we email the form. And like sometimes you don't hear back, or sometimes there's just like 20 emails back and forth of like, you did the, no, you're wrong, I'm wrong. Playing that blame game, um, where we have seen a lot of success is like we're not throwing out the train change order. It's not a bad procedure. It's a great procedure, but it's not a leadership or a tool to influence. So part of that is like, hey, can I give you a call or ask a question? Or even if you if you're some people are not comfortable making phone calls, that is a real thing.

Ryan: 23:39

Right.

Andrea : 23:40

Send anyone with a question, hey, we've got a challenge. Here's the challenge. How can we work together to fix this? So inviting them into the challenge, hashing it out together, either on the phone or like on a Teams call, a Zoom call in person, however you want to communicate that. And then once you've made that agreement, you fill out the change order and that has saved, can save days, weeks, um, lots of money, lots of emotion. And so part of it is like recognizing the procedure and being like, okay, that's the procedure. That's not a tool to influence. And recognizing that transformational leadership is a there's tools that you can use to influence, work with people, collaborate towards that common solution, and then you end up at the end of the day saving money.

Ryan: 24:25

Right. I I mean it's so confrontational as an industry, but what you just described is like starting to bring the human piece back into it. I as you're describing, I could only think of how cold sometimes the medical industry can be. And doctors, and it's like, yes, there are tasks that have to be done every day in a business or in a procedure in healthcare. For us as humans, like we need something more. Like, there has to be something more there in backing up to your area of like, why are we even in this industry? Like, what is the purpose that we're trying to achieve? And I know I've had this conversation with with others in the industry, is like there we have huge issues in the construction industry, but you know, all around architects, engineers, contractors. The world depends on us to build infrastructure that might be schools, might be bridges, might be things underground that no one sees, but depends on every day. That's purposeful. Like the world depends on us. And that may feel transactional, but coming back towards this go-to, you know, but the problem that you're aiming to solve. Like, we know we have a labor force in the future that is smaller than today. And you've talked about getting women into construction and having them feel more supported and transformational leaders. Like, people are walking away from this industry every single day. We're not coming into it. It's not even appealing or not even an option that they want to take on. So beyond that, like what makes this like even more critical of a problem to really be focused on and solving for the industry as a whole?

Andrea : 26:22

So that's kind of like, you know, when you do something you like when we're deep in this industry, so we've been deep in this industry since probably like 2020, like learning everything we can about construction. And really, like through the lens that I've learned it is through like getting people promoted. So that's how that's the lens where I see the world. So we have worked with all types architects, engineers, tradeswomen, um, project managers, HR people. I kind of we have worked with like the whole everybody, any type of person that works with in this industry over the years. So that's the lens that I know that I see the industry. We've also done a lot of research. What brings us to where we are today is this interesting moment where earlier this year, I had this moment of like, what are we really doing? Like, like, why does ambition theory exist? And what are we trying to achieve? And really, like as a leadership development company, what are we teaching people? And it really started being about advancing women. But this year, it kind of brought to the surface that this concept of transformational leadership, it's it's actually not about women at all. It's about leadership and a different leadership model that can actually help the industry solve all of the problems. Like, like you talked about, there's labor shortage, mental health, like workforce, people are retiring. There's all of these things. And what we've seen in the industry is there's kind of like an initiative for everything. And if you think about it, if you're a site leader, you gotta like actually manage that site, manage the people, be responsible for the budget, the cash flow, all the things. And you have to work on the recruitment initiative, you got to work on the mental health initiative, you got to work on the retention initiative. It's like the weight on these leaders' shoulders is like it's almost like unbearable. And if you think about it, there's all these issues. But if we look at it through the lens of leadership, look at it through a bigger picture. If we could teach these leaders transformational leadership skills, how to communicate better with your team, how to inspire them so that they want to go to work, how to create an environment where people can get stuff done without feeling burnt out. Not to say it's all the problems are gonna go away, but all of those problems, they're gonna be less hard. And the burden on that leader is gonna be less because they're just showing up what's the best way that I can lead today versus trying to juggle all the separate initiatives that they're required to do. So that was kind of a big aha moment for us this year is that it's actually not about women, it's about transformational leadership. And what's fascinating is again, I always get curious. I go down the rabbit hole of research. And what we learned through that is Gen Z does not respond to transactional leadership. So they do not want to go into an environment where they're they're kind of told what to do. There's this very prescriptive thing. They don't really, they're just kind of like seeing the immediate task at hand and they're waiting for their manager to give them the next task. They want to feel a sense of purpose. They want to feel like that they're contributing something, and they are actually aware of what drives their ambition. So these Gen Z knows, they know intrinsically what drives me, what excites me. They have that self-awareness and they come into a place that's extremely transactional and it is not fueling their ambition. Right. And what's interesting is they, I think in older generations, it was like, well, this is part of it. You got to put in your dues before, like Gen Z doesn't have that belief. So if they're they're not gonna come and thrive in a transactional environment. And so that is, I think, the bigger opportunity. If we want young people in this industry, the leadership really needs to change. And it's a huge opportunity to activate these people, get them excited. And talking about the World Series, um, I was talking to someone from like this is a big multinational company. And at some point, they had acquired St. Mary's Cement, which is a cement company in southwestern Ontario. And it's they've been around for a really long time. And they kind of like talk about this story of like, we built Toronto, like our cement is in the foundation of these, all of these old buildings. And I was talking to someone, they're in the US, they work for this company. We were talking about the World Series and like the I think it's called the Rogers Center. It used to be called the Sky Dome when I was growing up. But I'm like, I bet your products are in that building because it was built like in the 90s, right? And it was renovated just a couple of years ago, or maybe it's even still being renovated. I'm like, I bet your products are in that building. And it was just this smile on their face, this like, wow, like I am a part of that. And that's, I think, the opportunity to invite people to contribute to something like that, building the place where the Blue Jays almost won the World Series. Like, it's such a powerful vision. It's so exciting that it rallies people. And I think that's the opportunity that transformational leadership brings.

Ryan: 31:29

I mean, it's such a great way to kind of frame it, ending it with, hey, you get to physically see something, right? I've always thought architecturing instruction was, you know, I wasn't a writer, but by designing and seeing that built for a client and the occupants in it, it meant something to all of them. You know, is going to leave some sort of memory for the rest of their lives. Um I want to back up because you said there's a lot that you were able to cover there. I go back and think about those leaders who, yes, they're there, you will always have a lot on your plate. And a lot of times we're not great at getting people, like we talked earlier, they're coming from the field and coming to office. That development period that it takes from managing tasks to leading humans. And that's that piece you're talking about. It's like getting them to recognize that you are now there to lead other humans who aren't always going to know or get it right, and same for you. That you can't predict the future. And they have all of those tasks, plus a labor force that is much smaller, they're more hours, everything's behind, they're seeing the income sheet, so all of those pressures exist. And trying to frame it for them to understand like those problems exist because we're not solving this human connection piece. Generational, you got into that, everything was very much like check the box, do your work, move on. Technology has changed that. Your all work's always surrounding you. Um thinking about these leaders and trying to get them for themselves on board to the transactions are always going to happen. We want them to be healthier and more purposeful by helping you see that human, that human on your team, that yes, you may recognize as going through you mentioned mental health, and was able to listen to a panel about suicide prevention in this industry being so critical. Well, if we don't coach and lead, help uh the current leaders see these things, then it's only going to get worse as the bucket empties, right? As we get less and less people into it. So we're going to have even a bigger problem in the next five years if we don't see that it's actually an opportunity, the opportunity to make what we do more purposeful and to make our daily lives even easier by reframing our mindset around what a leader means and how to manage the task. The transition, the transactional piece is actually a management piece, not a leadership piece. So it just seems like we're going to have more and more problems if this isn't addressed.

Andrea : 34:54

Yeah. So that's a that is a lot. Okay. A couple of thoughts on that one. So it's interesting. I am, like you said, you have great positive energy. That is like something like we in our program, we do like a we we call it a leadership brand assessment where it's like we help people figure out like, what is that thing that makes you stand up? That's different than the technical skills that you bring to the table. And so mine is positive energy. So I love that you know that. You have not, I know you haven't seen my leadership brand assessment, but um, that's something that I look. So I always look at it from a I'm a glass half full person. So I see a ton of transformational leaders doing this. And it's it's incredible, it's wonderful. Their jobs are usually more profitable. Um, like, so it is happening. It's happening all it's happening all over the place. Um, so I'm very hopeful there. And I think what's interesting is uh people they get stuck in this, like, I can't, like, I can't invest in my leadership because I'm too busy.

Ryan: 35:55

Right.

Andrea : 35:56

When I'm done, when this practice is over, or when this kind of thing milestone is reached, then I will invest in my leadership. And I think there's a really helpful refrain I'd love to share is like when you're overwhelmed, when you feel like you can't breathe, when it's like you have zero time to take a leadership course or invest in coaching, that's actually the best time. Um, and I will tell you, we had some, this literally happened yesterday. We had someone in our eight-week program. Yesterday was the last day, and they said, they admitted, oh, the first four weeks, I didn't actually do anything. I was so behind. I was so overwhelmed. I was like, let me like, I probably shouldn't have signed up for this thing, right? So that's what they said in the last day. But then what they said now, they're like, my capacity, like, okay, when once we got to week four, I started showing up. I started showing up. I finally was like, you know what, it's gotten to this point, like, like the course is gonna be over and I'm gonna have missed the whole thing. I'm gonna start showing up. And what's interesting is their capacity to do the, they found the capacity to do the course, right? And which, which is not a lot of time. It's like one and a half hours a week, maybe two hours a week. So they they were from week four to eight, they found the capacity to do that. But in doing that and investing in that self-reflection, investing in that curiosity about what's going on in my team, that kind of downward leadership, but also what's going on in my company, that upward leadership, that future forward ability. It opened up their capacity to do that. And so now they have exponentially more time. And literally they said, they're like, I now I used to be like running around all the time. Now I literally can have two hours a day where I can sit and do my deep work. And that's where that strategic thinking comes. That was like, how are we gonna solve these really hard problems? Who do I need to engage to do that? That's where that opened up. And I think it came from this place of lack. Like, I literally don't have time. I missed half the course to, you know what, I gotta suck it up and do it. And sometimes that first step is you have to suck it up and take an hour and do the thing, make that investment, whatever that looks like for you, whether it's a course, whether it's looking for coaching from someone that you work with or coaching an employee. But when you start and it doesn't need to be big, it could be 15 minutes. It just opens up that strategic thinking, that capacity, because leadership capacity, um, like it can grow. Another example is we had someone that we worked with, and I just connected with them. We worked with them a couple of years ago, and they're like, oh, now I've double the amount of direct reports. And I'm like, well, you are you working longer hours? Are you more stressed out? It's like, no, because they've grown their leadership capacity so they can actually manage more team members than they could when they weren't kind of like really at their full leadership potential. So I think that's part of it is recognizing that this is this is a thing. And a tool, uh, can I share a tool from our that we teach people how to do this? Because it's it's really powerful. So we look at kind of like the what you're describing is reactionary, right? Like you're waiting for the task to come and you're reacting. And so that's reactionary, and it's really hard to get out of that, right? Because there's so much coming at you. And you're like, I kind of got 80% done today. I'll finish the next that 20% I didn't do yesterday, and more's coming. Like it doesn't stop, right? Um, so that's a way to work, and that's where it's burnout, right? Because you're just like, you're on this hamster wheel, you got your head down, you can't even see like the progress that you're making. So getting that feedback that's going to drive you to motivate you to keep showing up, it's not gonna happen if you're just waiting for that reaction to come. And so what I challenge people to do is we This tool called the boulders and the pebbles. It's very simple. So pebbles are those reactionary things, the to-do list, right? And if you think about it, we always like to think of people to help people think of the big picture first. So you can use this for yourself, for your own career. Like, where are you going in your career? What's your bigger picture goal? And what is that thing? If I focused my energy on it, that I could do in the next year, that's going to get me there faster. So that's your boulder. And then you take that boulder and every day you're like, okay, what can I do today that's working towards that goal? And most people are like, I'm too busy for that. It's like, no, no, 15 minutes a day. That's it. 15 minutes in the morning, literally do something to work towards that bigger goal. Um, if you're on a project, it's like, where are we going with the project? And looking at things like not just the end of this project, who owns this project? What else is in their pipeline? What are we trying to do with them? Like, are we trying to get more work with this company and thinking about it from a bigger picture beyond like the day-to-day and that kind of like project plan? And then you think, okay, if that's where we're going, if we, if like my company wants to grow and we have this exciting project that we're working on now, I can be curious about what else they're building and build relationships there because that's gonna help the company with that bigger goal and be like, okay, what can I do? What's the boulder? Right. I can always sit, they're gonna tell me stuff that needs to get done and I can continue to be reactionary, or I can get curious, look up, think about where we're going. And the boulder is that thing. And it takes longer, right? It's like pebbles. You can just like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pump out 15 emails. Like I had this client once that they're like, I'm like, I'm known as the person that like doesn't let an email sit in their inbox for longer than a minute. I'm like, that is gonna keep you in this reactionary mode. Yeah, you can't even take a vacation because your your reputation as the person that's always on is at risk, right? And if that's your identity, it you're going down kind of like the wrong path. So the boulders and the pebbles for people, it's like think about that. What's that bigger picture thing beyond today, beyond next month, beyond the next six months that you're trying to achieve, you, your team, your company, you can look at it through whatever lens. And then think about what's the thing in the next, you know, month or two that's gonna move that goal closer. It's gonna be harder. You might need people to help you move that boulder. But if you can figure out what that is in 15 minutes a day, work on it. And it could be as simple as if we could, you know, you know, build a relationship, build a better relationship with the owner of this project. And you're like, I don't even know where to start. It's like your 15 minutes is like, I'm gonna go to their website, look at who works there and send them a LinkedIn connection. That could be your one thing that you do on one day. The second day, it's like, huh, we got some shared connections. Maybe we could go to lunch with them. Or, and it's just like building on that little by little. And it's incredible what can happen when you put just a tiny bit of energy towards that big picture, how quickly it just goes. The impact grows, it gets bigger.

Ryan: 43:16

Yeah, it's so helpful, like you know, going into coaching mode, like breaking down our mindsets because we're complex. Humans are very complex, and we we want instant gratification. And then when there is a goal that's out there that we want can seem so far away, like you said, it's it feels enormous, and you're like, I don't I don't even know where to begin. And that's where breaking it down into the pebbles is these daily actions to weekly to monthly that allow them to get to that, and backing up to what you you where you kind of started, like a business model is never going to work if you're waiting to change something within yourself, your team, your business when that project ends. Because it doesn't, like you said, it's just going to keep coming. So one I like to always tell everybody is like change starts with choice. That is your first step. And if you are looking at it from a perspective of, hey, I have all of these things to do, I have all of the stuff I've got to complete, I don't have time for this. Who's making the choice? Like, who's made that choice for you? Like, are you making the choice or are you in a default and a victim of the time that you don't have? And we like to think construction industry and those of us that are in it, like we're t very time poor. Well, we're time poor because we're not addressing the issue that you're talking about. This new look at leadership and understanding the business might look transactional, and what we do on a daily basis might look transactional, but to fix a lot of those things, or even you know, fix what we're facing now, plus all of the other innovations that are thrown at you, it's going to take this new mindset.

Andrea : 45:22

And what's interesting, innovation's being thrown at you, and people always talk about the construction industry not being innovative, and innovation is being thrown at all of us like very quickly. But part of it is like transformational leadership, having trust, having open communication, having people that are nest, maybe not in a formal leadership role, understand the bigger picture. That is an environment to create innovation. So instead of like waiting for the innovation to be thrown at us, it's like, can we create innovation within our companies? Um, and transformational leadership creates the space for that because there's trust. There's actually this opportunity to manage up. And those conversations are welcomed, right? It's like in a traditionally like transactional environment, if you think there's a better way of doing things, but you're kind of the lowest in the org chart, it's actually not appropriate for you to bring that up. But in a transformational model, it's like actually that feedback is welcome. And that is what leads to innovation because people have different perspectives and they bring different experiences to the table, and they might have an idea that you never thought of as the leader. And the wonderful thing about this is you can jump on that bandwig and and you look like the amazing. Like it's not like giving the credit away. It's like actually you do it together and you all look amazing. You all get to bring that idea forward, which is exciting.

Ryan: 46:47

Yeah. Again, thinking of it in that way, it's it's just so important for us to realize like we don't have to know those answers. And we don't need to hold on to past beliefs or past systems or ways we've done it our whole lives because we were trained that once and we thought it would never change. Like I always say, we've got to build stronger relationships with change in the industry by first recognizing it. And to be transformational, like you've got to recognize how you feel, and you've got to have empathy for how change impacts others around you. And like you're saying, it's like you when you got to give it space and you got to give it time, and you can't rush through change. And that's what's, I think, the transactional side is I bought this system, I paid for this, I want it immediately to take effect, and it doesn't stick. And transformational is this is going to take time. That boulder is out there, and the effort that we're putting in to get these pebbles kind of out of the way is far more beneficial. And it's in that time that I'm allowing, the space that I'm giving, this empathy towards how others think about change is worth the return on investment.

Andrea : 48:11

It's funny that you brought that up because we are in, we we just bought a new software system. And it is not going as smoothly as the sales call and demo people said it would. Sure. And my mindset went, oh, we we bought the wrong one. We should have gone with that other demo because we wouldn't be in this situation. And it's like we're all human, right? So we go to that, right? We regret, we're like, let's cancel, like blame them. I naturally went there. But then I realized I had to go back and be like, what was the strategy behind this? Like we had a strategy, we had a problem, we saw an opportunity, we kind of researched all these things, we picked a partner, and you know what? Like, sometimes there's some onboarding, right? That you need to, you need to wait it out. It's not all like performance on day one. And I think that actually stems to this other issue is the like recruitment versus retention. I think there's this mindset of like, we just need people and anybody can come in. If they don't work out, it's okay, we'll get another one in the door tomorrow. And so you miss out on that growth onboarding period, which is so important. And so I think there's this cost of like people coming, like a revolving door of people that is very costly. That yeah, when you kind of look at it from that transactional, and that's where you can see the literally the numbers behind it. Like how much does it cost for you to recruit someone? Right. And literally just the recruitment cost, but also the the training, the onboarding, that knowledge transfer. And if you think of that leader that's got to train new people all the time, that's exhausting. Like you pour into people, you you train them, and then they leave right away. That's that's another weight on that leader's shoulder. So if they could have some new tools to kind of invite them and inspire them, like show them the bigger picture, show them the path to a career, they're more likely to stay. They're gonna want to learn, they're gonna be curious, they're gonna rise to the challenge. And I think that at that can actually save a significantly like a significant amount of money pr pretty quickly.

Ryan: 50:23

Right. Yeah, I mean, I just I hear people say, like, hey, if if they're breathing, if they can fog a mirror, we want them on the job. And it's like, well, you're looking at them, you know, like they're a piece of equipment. Um and you know, I think about it all the time for construction companies or manufacturers or whomever, like if something's broken in a in a piece of machinery or a computer or whatever, like you invest and you fix it. But when you're sitting there and looking at an employee, well, they're just supposed to be doing their their job, do their tasks. Like you need to be investing in them. You know, interesting.

Andrea : 51:02

It's like the maintenance schedule, right? Like the equipment, the heavy equipment is on a maintenance schedule. There's maintenance contracts, like that's a thing. Whereas it's almost like, what are we doing on the employees to keep them in like top condition?

Ryan: 51:16

Right, right. And it's not shoving them into a conference room where another manufacturer's giving a non-sales pitch, and I think about architecture and I talk about all the time, you don't learn from a CEU. You can barely remember what they even talked about. And you you're getting that credit because the state tells you you need to to keep your license. But so when you when I talk about like this transformational piece, or like, hey, if we're gonna address new innovations and figure out how to change the industry for the future labor force and draw new people in, like you've got to find that time. Like, what is it going to take for you to find that time for you to work on something that fills you more, is by that ambition, like you're talking about, like why you got into this industry, you know, the purpose of it behind everything that you're driven towards. First, over here of like, yeah, these are things I have to do to achieve that.

Andrea : 52:17

Yeah, to be purposely. Okay, I do want to bring up the continuing education credits because it's really interesting. So we've gotten our programs like certified by a couple of those organizations. And the measure is hours consuming content. Like, literally, like that's how you get the credits is like how many hours are you sitting there listening to someone speak at you? That is the measure of successful, like continuing education, professional development. And what's interesting, and this is what makes our programs really different. We actually, from an hour's consuming content, it's actually very low. So it's not actually appealing to people who are just here for the credit. Right. Because our focus is transformation, is actually if you're teaching these transformational leadership skills, it's actually the work happens in the job. Like you learn the thing, then you try it that day or the next day in your job. And so the learning is happening on the job versus in the classroom. So there's a whole mindset shift of like how long it actually takes to invest in this, because it's actually not a lot, because it's really looking at what are people's strikes, what drives their ambition, what's a new tool they can try based on the situation they are facing in their job right now, and helping people see what which tool in the toolbox they want to try. So they are getting results relatively quickly without having to sit a lot of in a lot of time in a classroom. I think that's a mindset shift that does need to happen is that hours consuming equals like leadership development, because that is really not the case.

Ryan: 53:54

No, and and change isn't an event, you know, like it is it is an ongoing thing. And in the world, it's not static. It situations are always going to change. So leadership, you know, hey, I got I gotta go sit in this one hour credit and now I know it all. Well, that's not the case. You're talking about application, you know, like what you're learning is now applying, and and it's on, we'll take an old term, on the job learning.

Andrea : 54:21

Yeah.

Ryan: 54:21

But you're applying those things. And I know that can even relate back towards like we weren't all good carpenters when you start. Like I was didn't know how to build everything. I had to go out there and I had to explore. I had to be in constant learning mode for that situation, for that client. So transformational leadership is an investment in s in yourself, it's an investment in your business, it's an investment in the industry. And and uh it's about leaving a legacy beyond a business that that you that gets acquired or you sell. You're doing far more for everybody that's sort of involved. And I think more people get a lot more purpose out of it. And I love that it's ambition and that it's from that standpoint because we do forget that. We just f we forget it why we're doing it, and we go to that snap back into well, I just gotta get the I just gotta get the job done. I just gotta do what's in front of me. So we could go on forever. Um, because this is such a great conversation that this industry, you know, I want to absorb it. I want them to take it and start applying it and and be, you know, watching everything that you're putting out. And I know there's a lot of us who want to see that transformational piece happen so that the next generation, like you talked about, is coming in to an industry that can help us solve some really big problems. So, one of the last questions I always like to ask is like, what is success for solving this problem look like?

Andrea : 56:03

So I think success looks like when you go to a project and you can feel it. You can see it, you can see people like having each other's backs, you can see people collaborating, you can see innovation come out of the project. I think that's what success looks like is when you're at the project site. And the interesting thing about construction is that it's not a one-person job, it's not even a one company job. It's not even a one industry job, right? You need insurance, you need financing. There's so many different companies that are working on this. And I think success looks like they're all working, they're all excited. They are getting stuff done on time, they're getting stuff done from a profitable perspective. They're building those long-term relationships and you can see it. You go and you're like, this is inspiring. I'm inspired. Look at what we're doing. Look at the people, look at their contribution. People are excited to go to work. That's what I think success looks like for me.

Ryan: 57:06

Yeah. Well, I love it because again, it is all about the humans and how we feel fulfilled and purposeful. So it's the end of the year. That's a great little nudge of like everyone gets to hit a little reset. So, as we're heading into this year, what would you say some first steps that those maybe listening can can look at for themselves or things that you have out there that might be helpful for them?

Andrea : 57:38

Um, okay. I think one thing is just to do that self-reflection to really figure out what drives your ambition. This is such a great opportunity. So many people do not know this. So a way to do it is like I love pen and paper. Um, think about one day, literally, you can do this either like at the end of the day. Think of all the things you did. What things energized me and which things drained me. And that will give you clues as to what drives your ambition. And then the other way of doing it is look at your calendar. If you're like a, you know, have tasks scheduled in your calendar. Go through your calendar for the week and be like, what was energizing? What was not? And the things that are energizing, just notice, okay, when I'm doing that, how do I feel? Um, so that's the first part is the awareness. And then for 2026, it's about that intention. How can I be intentional about finding more of those things? So, example, people will find, okay, my ambition is I love like the finish line. I love seeing the end of the project, you know, the cut the ribbon, the grand openings. That is like, I love that. I love seeing the big picture, right? So look at place it, look for tell your manager. I like to work on projects that I can be involved for the whole time and I can see it from start to finish because that's going to drive you. Whereas other people are like, oh, I love being like an expert in the process, solving problems. This maybe like, okay, maybe I'm not on one project. I get to be on multiple projects and I'm coming in to help them when there's this type of problem. I get to do that. Cause then you get to fuel that. So having those conversations, knowing what it is for yourself. And then when you can have a conversation with your manager, but this is what I learned about myself. This is what's going to make me thrive. What opportunities are available in 2026 that it could align with this? It's a different, it's proactive versus reactive. What are they going to put me on? Like I have, it's December 28th. I don't know what I'm doing on January 2nd when I go back, right? That's the reactive and this idea that you can actually like let people know that this is what you need to thrive. And those opportunities are probably available. It's just about connecting the dots. Um, so just being a little bit intentional around that. And then if you have that awareness yourself, you can actually do this for your team. Ask your team to do this exercise and ask them to tell you what they find out about themselves. And then as a leader, you can align what they care about with what opportunities are available in the company. And you just you get that little tiny bit more of motivation from yourself and from them. So I think that would be a challenge for people to at the to do at the end of the year.

Ryan: 1:00:10

I mean, it's great. It's taking that self-check-in, right? Everyone wants to do it. They want to set something they'll want to stick with. They want to commit to. And everything that you've been talking about is a commitment to themselves. It's a commitment to their team, commitment to their industry and their business. And I know I mentioned it before, but for all the listeners, you have first choice here. You don't have to allow the feeling of I don't have time, go any further. Take a moment, as Andrea has said, go through your self-assessment and make that choice for yourself. And make it for, you know, aligning yourself again with why you got into this industry, what what drives your ambition, what is your purpose, and keep reflecting on that. It is those things, as Andrea said, it's like you're checking your calendar, you're doing these things because it's really important that you are aligned with self. And um that's going to help you become not only more freer into the things that are happening for you and with you, um, but also just aligned with benefiting the industry as a whole. So, Andrea, I love the conversation. I feel like this won't we'll probably have a part two at some point because it's so important. And I'm so glad that you sat on a bench as a mother, reading a magazine and saw something that sparked your curiosity to dive in and help, you know, an entire industry, you know, and I know you mentioned before women in construction, and it's so important. That work is so important. We need women in construction, we need them to feel um heard, seen, sponsored throughout their career. So I just appreciate everything that you're doing and everything you've done, and I know all the work that you will continue to do. So thanks for being on the show.

Andrea : 1:02:13

Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.

Ryan: 1:02:15

Yeah, well, so great. I appreciate it. And and hopefully Toronto will pull it off next year.

Andrea : 1:02:20

Yeah, that would be amazing. And also, can I share? We do have a podcast if people want to learn more about our approach to leadership. Um, it's called Rethinking Leadership in Construction. It's Ambition Theory, Rethinking Leadership in Construction. And we also do quantitative research. So if you're curious, like I am, about what the data says, um, we have two reports called Building Better. Um we did one in 2023 and we did one in 2025 with the National Center for Construction Education and Research. So you can grab those on our website. It's ambitiontheory.com.

Ryan: 1:02:50

Okay, great. Thanks. Sorry, I should have mentioned that. I will add that into the show notes. I will put links in there so that everybody can grab that information. And I know on the podcast you were able to share some of that uh information as well. And it is it is um very important work that you are doing. So again, thanks, Andrea, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Andrea : 1:03:12

Awesome. Thank you.

Ryan: 1:03:13

All right, thanks. So that is the episode with Andrea Jansen from Ambition Theory. And I think what's so intriguing is that there's an individual who is out uh reading a magazine and spots something and it says, This has caught my attention. I'm seeing uh a problem here, and I want to dive in to solve it. Um, and for her to get connected to the construction industry is so critical because four percent of our um employees within the construction industry are women in the United States, somewhere around four percent. But in the United States, more than 51% of our population are women. And I know that the industry may have looked one way in the past, but we cannot solve our problems, be it from a future labor force and the demand on what it is that we need to go build with our infrastructure to housing. We know that the labor force that we have today isn't getting the work done. And it is not their fault. Now, what we have to look at as leaders, and we talked about the transformational piece in a very, very transactional industry. We have to figure out how do we find time to focus on these things for ourselves, for our teams, and for our businesses. We cannot keep allowing the I'm too busy, I'll wait till this project is over to define that area of time for us to focus on our leadership and to focus on how we're going to address our businesses moving forward. If the next generation is looking for transformational leaders, and that is our recruitment area, then we need to go towards that human side. It doesn't mean we're weak. It doesn't mean that we are giving in to what we've always known and making that irrelevant. That's a foundational piece that has gotten us here, but we need to release some of it because the transactions are going to happen. But the transformational piece is this area of freedom, of release to see the person sitting next to you in a different way, to see problems in a new way and to address them in a new way. Because the situations have changed, and the tools that we're using now are no longer addressing the issue. It isn't about an instant gratification. It is not going to be easy. But that work that you're putting in for yourself and everyone else is worth it. It is worth it to everyone around, and it is worth it to the industry because the transactional piece is what's holding us back from addressing a lot of the largest challenges we have. I know that we can always feel overwhelmed, and we will always, as humans, put those barriers up. We will always think the obstacles are bigger than they are. So as we discussed, take a moment, go through some self-reflection, check in with yourself, look for that self-awareness, not only just because it's the end of the year, but because you deserve it. Because your team deserves it, and because the industry deserves it. With that, this is our uh final guest episode of 2025. It is an extra guest episode with the goal heading into 2026 that we are going to shift our schedule a little bit with the podcast to where we will have two guests each month. They will drop on the second and fourth Tuesday of the month, with bonus episodes dropping on the third Thursday of the month. So expanding the opportunity to hear from other people within the industry as well as continuing with the bonus episodes. So until next time, I hope that you stay well. I hope that you're able to find those self-reflection moments, and I hope that you're able to continue to activate curiosity within yourself, but also within others in the industry. Until next time, keep leaning with curiosity.