Leading Change in Construction: Why Culture Matters, Not Just Technology

The future of construction isn’t just about technology—it’s about how leaders respond to change.

In this episode of Activating Curiosity™, Ryan Ware sits down with Brian Turmail, Vice President of Public Affairs and Strategic Initiatives at the Associated General Contractors of America (AGC), to explore what construction leadership and change management in the AEC industry will require moving into 2026 and beyond.

This conversation reframes a common challenge: many change initiatives fail not because of strategy, but because of how they’re led. Instead, Brian highlights the growing importance of empathy, communication, and human-centered leadership in navigating workforce shortages, technology adoption, and economic uncertainty.

Together, they unpack how industry-wide challenges—from labor gaps to innovation adoption—are interconnected, and why collaboration across the AEC ecosystem is critical to progress.

From culture and workforce development to trust and communication, this episode explores how leaders can reduce change fatigue and guide teams through uncertainty with clarity and confidence.

This isn’t just about the future of construction—it’s about how leaders prepare for it.

What you’ll learn:

•  Why change initiatives fail—and how leadership influences outcomes 
•  The role of empathy and communication in effective change management 
•  How workforce shortages and technology adoption are reshaping the industry 
•  Why collaboration across the AEC ecosystem is critical to progress 
•  How leaders can reduce change fatigue and build trust across teams 

Who this is for:
Construction leaders, executives, and AEC professionals focused on leadership development, workforce challenges, and navigating industry change.

Chapters

05:00 - Challenges in the Construction Industry
15:00 - The Role of Technology and Innovation
25:00 - Cultural Shifts and Workforce Development
35:00 - Importance of Human Connection and Empathy
45:00 - Future Outlook and Call to Action

Guest

Brian Turmail is Vice President of Public Affairs and Strategic Initiatives at the Associated General Contractors of America (AGC), where he leads communications, workforce initiatives, and industry advocacy for over 27,000 member firms.

He focuses on workforce development, industry insights, and advancing construction through policy, education, and collaboration.

https://www.agc.org/industry-priorities/project-innovation-delivery

https://buildculture.org/

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Transcript

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Brian 0:58

I actually think by and large, people care about each other in this industry, right? Like they're they're I mean, yeah, they're there are schmoes in any sector of the economy. But by and large, that because it's such a collaborative, such a teamwork environment, you do actually care, even for selfish reasons. You care about the next person because their success is crucial to your success. The challenge is how do we show that care? How do we how do we open up and in a tough work environment where we do tough things? How do we say things like, Are you okay? Do you need help? Right. It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you less skilled as a craft worker or construction professional, um, but it just makes you more human yet.

Ryan 2:09

I am Ryan Ware, and it is the first episode of 2026. So I'm hopeful that all of you enjoyed your new year and got some time off to hit reset and replenish that energy level and ready to take on on the new year. Um, and that's one of the reasons I want to have the conversation that I'm going to have today, um, because I think it's so important for our industry. And I've had a chance to meet this gentleman uh a few times and know a lot of the work that he is doing as well as his association is so important for the construction industry. So today I have with me Brian Termail. He is the vice president, industry and association image for the AGC. So, Brian, how are you doing today?

Brian 2:55

Oh, I'm great. Thanks for a first of all, I'm like shocked and appalled it's already 2026. Where did 2025 go? But uh no, thanks for having me. I'm I'm I'm glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Ryan 3:06

Yeah, and we are teleporting into that region right now because we know we're recording this a little bit ahead for the listeners, but it's still shocking. It's still shocking to say, I'm grateful for you um spending some time with me. Um, I've enjoyed all of the conversations that we've gotten to have uh recently and the chance to get to know you a little more in the work. I'm obviously aware of the AGC and the involvement that they've had with the industry for so long now to be such an important player in helping the development. So before we get into the uh the full episode, why don't you tell a little bit about yourself, kind of your past, how you got in um to working with the AGC?

Brian 3:47

Uh probably best to start because, in some sense, that I I've gone full circle professionally uh right out of college. I actually ended up in Washington, D.C., where we're we're headquartered here at the Associated General Contractors, uh, teaching public school. I taught second grade for two years. I was, I was gonna, Brian, I was gonna save the world before I sold out. I was in this, I was in this program called Teach for America, uh, and I got assigned to teach uh in inner city, D.C. Uh and and really learned that I was not a great seventh grade teacher, but it was a heck of a two-year experience. Uh, and then then from there uh spent some time at a public relations firm. And then after 9-11, September 11th, uh uh ended up uh working in the federal government. It's it's funny, like the whole time I was in DC, I always felt like I lived in D.C. and there was a separate Washington, and then inevitably I kind of got sucked into Washington. Uh and and actually I, my first federal job after 9-11, I worked for the then brand new Transportation Security Administration, uh, which professionally was a little bit like uh a year at TSA was like dog year, right? It was like seven years of actual professional experience, just because at the time it was kind of the new story, and we did lots of things to make our lives miserable, like hiring an axe murderer to be a TSA screener or making a mother drink bone breast milk or all kinds of just nightmare stories that for a PR guy makes life very interesting. Uh, and then spent a number of years af after TSA working in the Secretary's office at the Department of Transportation as kind of the spokesperson for the department. And then I have been with uh the Associated General Contractors ever since the very end of 2008, which is actually 17 years ago, right? And and the role has kind of evolved, but and and the title uh uh is a relatively new one. We're going through a bit of a reorganization at AGC. But uh I would say the best way to describe my job at AGC is that it's it's my job to make sure that the story of our association and the story of our industry, including career opportunities in our industry, is one that's well known. It's not just well known to our members, but well known to the media, well known to uh elected and appointed officials who kind of hold some of the fate of the construction industry in their hands. And then really to any other audiences that are important. So one of those obviously audiences, future workers, right? We spend a lot of time talking about the the many wonderful career opportunities and pathways that exist to work in construction as we deal with what our members tell us is their number one challenge, which are construction workforce shortages. But in addition to dealing with a lot on workforce, just to finish answering your question, uh I do spend a lot of time with our marketing team. So where we're making sure that people know how they can engage with our association and are signing up for things like in-person conferences or webinars. Uh, spend a lot of time with our multimedia team on all of the kind of social media and video storytelling that we do and audio storytelling. I'm I'm the spokesperson for the association, so I spent a lot of time talking about AGC and the industry to the media and many other audiences that will listen and many more that probably aren't listening to me. Uh, and then also spend time, uh, you know, we have like many other trade associations, we have a PAC and we have an advocacy fund and we have a charitable organization. So I spent a lot of time supporting those groups and and kind of overseeing the fundraising opportunities. So if anyone is interested in supporting our construction advocacy fund or our charitable group, uh I'd be happy to have that conversation. But for right now, I'll avoid making the money pitch. I promise.

Ryan 7:38

Well, it's you know, it's such an important thing. The image, those out there who who are, you know, they're all familiar. Let's just be honest. They're they're watching construction come up, but they that their image is the orange cones. It's the construction fences, it's thinking projects may never get done. Um, their image is one thing, and that that perception becomes reality, like you said, for that future works force of like why would I want to go into that if if maybe the world has some some image of, you know, from a negative standpoint. So I think that's such an important role. And I know you've been able to kind of play that with multiple different agencies and and getting, you know, getting the information out, especially today. Like we're hit with so much information and it go into that that algorithm. So there's a lot of ways I think the conversation that we'll have today can go. Um, and that image being kind of one of them. You mentioned the future workforce and a lot of those challenges, obviously, your members are facing. So um you you got into this role in 2008. From your perspective, you know, being that image, you know, driving the image out to the rest of the the country and those that get impacted by what we do on a daily basis. What do you believe are the the biggest problems? And maybe we put it in a viewpoint of 2026, but also maybe long term, the biggest problem that the AGC is really targeting, the key initiatives that they're targeting for the year. Sure.

Brian 9:13

You know, as I mentioned, obviously the thing that keeps our members up most at night are our workforce shortages. And and to some extent, that's a policy issue, and to a large extent it's also an image issue. You're absolutely right. Everyone is aware of construction. It's not like, you know, if I were to say, you know, like, hey, I'm a I'm a quant at a brokerage house, no one knows what the heck that means and how your day looks. But everyone has a general notion of construction because everything that we do as industry is incredibly visible. It happens out literally in the open most times. So everyone's seeing someone in their PPE working on a road, working on a building, and has a a general perception of what that career is. But at the same time, like never has there been an industry where everyone has one perception and the reality in many cases is so very different, right? Like they see someone standing around, they see someone operating a piece of equipment, they see someone doing manual labor, all of which happens, right? Like that's part of construction. We literally build everything that that everyone uses uh in in our economy. Uh, yet what they don't see is all of that pre-construction work, the planning work, the coordination. They don't see the great lengths people go to ensure the safety of the workers. They don't see necessarily, now look, I'm paid to go and spend an hour or two filming at a construction site. So I see a lot more things the average person, they don't see the technology that's being used. Right. They don't see the evolution, how frankly, if you were to visit a job site in 2008, the the three job sites that were in business in 2008, because remember there was, you know, essentially a construction depression. Uh if you were to visit a job site in 2008 versus the a job site today, just the amount of changes that have taken place. I I think most people in construction actually would be astounded by how much this industry has changed. So so the perception challenge comes into the workforce issue in the sense that there are a lot of mamas and dads and aunts and uncles out there that don't want their babies to grow up to work in construction because they think it's dirty work or they think it's dangerous work or they think it's not dignified work, for lack of a better word. And and you know, the and and they don't appreciate that it's actually well compensated work either. They think it's like a beginner job, or yeah, you know, and and so we we we spend a lot of time as an association and the industry spends a lot of time trying to better shape those perceptions. The good news is this it's not like the accounting industry. No offense to accountants out there, but like if I were to spend a day filming a bunch of accountants at work, that would be boring. It would it would be like why it'd be like watching me work. Like I'm in front of a computer typing away and on the phone, or you know, that's not very exciting. The work that our industry does, our members do, is awesome. It's impressive. They are building things that you could never conceive of. They're making things happen every day. The physical environment where they work because of their labors is changing. So we have this like incredibly visually storytelling-friendly industry. And everyone is interested. There isn't a person that walks by a job site that doesn't stop and look a whole at a hole in like this, you know, the fencing to see what the heck is, what are they doing in there? Like we have this innate curiosity about things getting built. And that's that's an incredible advantage. We just need to make sure that we are showing, if we think of like the storytelling as looking through that peephole in the construction wall, that we are showing the full story and the career opportunities that exist, the technology that's being used, how this industry's evolved, how there are so many pathways into the industry that it don't require people to accumulate a bunch of college debt, that that that the the the pay levels, the the the the sense of camaraderie on a job site, the sense that you're on a team, the sense of accomplishment. Uh we have to show that, right? You know, another story I like to tell and is that I have I'm a PR guy. Like I'm a shameless PR guy at heart.

Ryan 13:29

That's all right.

Brian 13:30

I have never, nor would I ever attempt to have taken my children into my office, printed out a couple press releases that I've written, or even like coverage that I've covered, I've seen received, and made them read it. They would look at me like, you are a crazy man. You, this is the most boring thing I could possibly look at. But every person in our industry, whether you're a laborer, whether you're the CEO of a company, whether you're an estimator, whatever the role, has taken someone they care about in their truck over to a project they worked on and said, That's my building, that's my airport, that's my bridge. And and and we have to kind of bottle that sense of pride that comes with working in this industry and selling. So, yes, to answer your question, workforce, huge issue. But I also think that we're in the midst of other challenges, is we're in the midst of an ongoing technologically driven change in in the process of construction and the actual practice of construction. And and I think a lot of our, actually, I know a lot of our members, particularly small and medium-sized ones, see that as more of a threat than an opportunity. That, oh my gosh, the big guys in the world are going to be able to outspend me in technology and I'm gonna get left behind. And one of the things that we spend a lot of time as an association trying to uh show and have our members teach each other is it's actually an incredible leveler. All of a sudden, the Davids of the world can take on Goliath because they don't have to spend all their time doing back office functions. They can be just as productive, they can be just as efficient because technology all of a sudden frees them up to be able to ramp up and scale and do things, uh, you know, whether it's process, whether it's pull phone, RFP, whatever might be far more efficiently than even just a few years ago. And and then more, I think more long term, but it's still happening. We're seeing this transformation in the tools and equipment and process of how things are built. And that also, again, maybe is a challenge, but it's also tremendous opportunity. You know, for years we have heard over and over again about the fact that the construction industry has been a laggard in improving productivity, right? That we're just not as productive as others. And and I I I've I think we've long felt like it's a bit wrong that there is an enormous amount of productivity and productivity improvements in every project site. It's just construction's like think of an NFL team that every week plays with a different collection of players, right? Every project in construction, you get a different collection of players. And and it's almost like every productivity improvement we make, we then we have to go back and we have to make up again with the next project because it's a new team of people. So but I I I do think, and I think we think that technology might actually make those productivity gains from project to project stick and and kind of snowball. So so yeah, so to technology, AI, challenge, threat. And then, you know, I think the third thing that we're spending a lot of time on right this year, and hopefully this will change, is just economic uncertainty, right? Right. You know, we're in the uh by the time you'll be listening to this conversation, uh, we'll have released our annual outlook, you know, our survey of members that that that predicts where the market's going. Uh and it's the most pessimistic outlook we've seen from our members since the pandemic. There are, they are, I hate, I don't want to depress people in the new year, right? You know, like you're on your diet, you're you're trying to work off, you know, all the make and marry from December. Uh you know, I will say beyond data centers and power construction, our members do not expect the market for any other segment of construction to grow. And and many of them they expect to shrink compared to last year. Now, whether or not they're right in their predictions, I think that's a good snapshot into the mindset of the construction community, which is wow, we're we're chasing data centers, and I don't know if I'm ever going to build another office again. Right? Right. Hopefully they're I love our members. I generally think that they're incredibly brilliant. I hope they're wrong this time and that that 2026 ends up being like kind of a breakout year economically, but there's a lot of worry. And so we we we as an association, we as people who care about the industry need to think about okay, if we've got that mindset, what are the things that we could do that'll help our members understand how to be more efficient, how to be more effective, how to chase the work that is out there, uh, how to, how to, how to, or maybe how to use a quieter time to invest in some training and development so that when the economy turns around, when demand picks back up, they're ready to rock and roll, as opposed to 2008, 2009, 2010, when everyone laid everyone off, the economy turned around, and all of a sudden they're like, oh my gosh, we got no one to build this stuff.

Ryan 18:28

Right. Yeah. People left.

Brian 18:30

So that was a long answer, forgive me. But uh, I think, I mean, we we could we could probably spend all day talking about the things that we worry about, but I would say workforce, technology, economic conditions are probably three good kind of representative examples of the kind of things we spend our time worrying about and and trying to figure out how do we help our members be successful.

Ryan 18:49

Yeah. Well, and I think those are three things that are interconnected in a lot of ways. And I'll I'll try to do the weave here to stitch that together. But I think as you were talking through it, you know, one, I'm gonna I want to talk a little bit about that image piece because, like you said, everybody, and that sense of pride of what we were building as an industry from the you know, from the labor force standpoint, I think you and I talked before, like my entire life, we've been talking about the shortage that we had and was coming. And, you know, my generation, we were all there was glamorous jobs that we could go out and get trained through university to do. And like you said, there was this maybe layer put over top of what could be accomplished by being in the trades. And we made some mistakes back then. And now that's where we've got to look at this, like you're like you're saying, of this convergence with industrialized construction of like delivery models to methodologies of construction to to all of the tech, what you know, be it uh software internally, to what's possible with additive manufacturing and robotic side and direct digital manufacturing, things like that, that aren't, you know, like you said, the mindset, because we're human, the first thing we think is like, well, that's a threat, so therefore I must protect, and I must protect what I believe I own and can control. Yeah. So this industry has, you know, gotten a bad rap for being in the we are slow to adopt, we are slow to change, so therefore, like you said, our productivity level goes down. Well, now I think we've got a bunch of limiting beliefs. Where it's, you know, I posted something today. It was all about the title, like how how we call something something in the industry. And it is like, you know, is it modular, is it prefab? Is it off site? You know, it's all about industrial. Construction. I was like, when are humans going to realize in their own abilities to learn how to build with these methods? Right. It's just the method of construction. And as you're saying, like this is a huge opportunity for, and I know I focus a lot personally with small businesses to medium, and they're not the big general contractors who have bigger net profitability or more revenue to invest in RD and things like that. Like there is some gaps in there, what technology costs to be able to be able to implement it. But one thing I did notice, and you talked about this, it is a mindset for a lot of us in the industry. And it's a change, you know, it's a change about how we think about what is a threat versus that opportunity. Yeah. And how we, you know, how we navigate change to be able to implement that when there are so many diverse ideas of what clarity means, or what does control mean, or all of those things. And you said about going to the gym, like how much commitment will I have to stick with that routine or to get this implemented? And I the thing that I commend you, you know, as a group on as well, is this idea behind the innovation, I think you you call it the project innovation and delivery uh of technology committee that are focusing on helping small to medium-sized companies look at change management as it relates to implementing these solutions. And I think about that image of the the next workforce, right, that wants to come in, like they want to see that. They want to see, you know, yes, there has to be skilled trade labor on the job, but they're they've they're Gen I, right? They've had technology their whole life. So to go into an office or onto a field where there isn't technology along with some skilled labor, they're not gonna, they're not gonna want to enter. So that's part of that image of we have a huge opportunity to figure that out for ourselves. Like, what does this change mean to me individually? What does it mean to my team, my company, but the investment into that, you know, future workforce to gain productivity as you're describing, by can we generate more revenue with the same amount of headcount by inserting technology because we're able to do far more projects and deliver on far more. And something else that you said that I think is, you know, the outlook for 2026, and not to go dark on it, I think you can look at the ABI report, the architectural billing index, and that I mean, that's been rough for three years, I would say, since 2022. Um, just sort of showing flat at the inquiries and the billings and everything. But this is where it's like our opportunity. This is me personally, I feel that our opportunity, you know, with all of those in the industry to start to, as you said, invest into trainings and development and change management to start to solve an enormous problems that our country has in infrastructure and housing and other areas, because we we we work through this together to say, we're going to implement some of these things. We're going to think about new strategies, we're going to look at the methods in a different way that we can supplement the lay for the future labor force, which will be smaller than today, to build, to build things. So I know I'm saying a lot there, but you gave me a lot of a lot of things that I was thinking about of the opportunity of the problem we're aiming to solve, can have just as much pride in being part of that legacy of changing how we're looking at it. The same way we do look at pride when we design a building, build a bridge, build a building that we want to showcase to everybody. Because, you know, it does take a lot of humans to put a building together or to build anything. And there aren't a lot of industries that that can say that. That it takes, it takes all of us to do this. Like accountants have a business, but like, as you said, like it's not the same.

Brian 25:41

And even if it did, they're all working individually at a cube or office, crunching numbers. They're not I mean, the the level of interdependency required in construction. Maybe there are others. I mean, maybe if like you're you know, nuclear physicists, you have the same challenge or if you're the military, but everything one individual does drives and impacts what another individual does in this industry, right? And and and so I mean, literally, this is the ultimate team sport when that's out there. And and I do think that's an it's a you know both an opportunity and mostly an opportunity, a little bit of a challenge, but an opportunity. You know, how do we and and which means that one of the kind of recipes for success is how do we keep those individuals focused on productivity as opposed to process? And and we we were talking the other day, there is, I mean, it w it's not a panacea, it's not gonna serve all of our solve all of our problems, but I do think a lot of the technology, a lot of these sort of particularly artificial intelligence tools, which don't require a massive investment because other firms are technology companies are spending billions a day to perfect this technology. But if we can use some of these tools to free up a lot of the process work that comes with modern construction, the paperwork, the the you know, uh all the things that are needed before you can actually even start moving dirt. Still do them, still make sure they're right, but maybe it takes hours instead of days or weeks to get it done. It's almost like we can get back to that kind of that, whether it actually existed or not, but this perception of this heyday of, you know, a time where contractors would shake hands and go out and build magnificent things, right? Right. We'll shake those hands, we'll have all the contracting and all the sort of documents you need. We'll just spend less time doing those, and we'll spend more time building you know, the next Chesapeake Bay Bridge, or building the next Hoover Dam, or building the next um, you know, Dulles Airport. Well, maybe Dulles is a bad one to pick on because everyone seems to be hating on Dulles Airport these days. But you know, the but the next magnificent structure that that where people are inspired by the things that we build, right? And and I do think that that again, like, yeah, change is is is challenging and you have to manage it right, but it but but the changes that are coming have the opportunity to kind of make it easier, even with fewer people. We know demographics that we're gonna have a smaller working-age population relative to the total population in the United States. Uh, and and certainly we're also currently in the midst of shrinking the pool of the lawfully authorized workforce in the United States. We're since January of 2025 and today, whatever your politics are, it's math. We have fewer people legally allowed to work in this country than we did at the beginning of the year, right? Between U.S. citizens and foreign-born individuals who were legitimately authorized to work in January and aren't anymore. So we have a smaller pool of labor. Technology allows us to get a lot of things done. And then, shameless plug for an association like AGC. One of the reasons people join an association like AGC is that instead of spending your time reinventing every deal, you are all of a sudden part of a network of people who have dealt with the same challenges you have dealt with every day and figured it out. And you have a forum where you can come together and have conversations about, okay, I'm struggling with this challenge. I can't figure out how to make this work. And all of a sudden, you're sometimes literally and sometimes virtually in a room with 100 people from around the country. You're saying, Yeah, you know what? It's funny. I had that same problem on this project two years ago. Here's how we solved it. And we have that same opportunity. You know, one of the fears on technology is I'm a small firm, I don't have the resources to go test 10 pieces of technology. No, you don't. But you have an association where we can bring you together and say, here's 10 firms, each one testing a piece of different a different piece of the sort of technology. Let's hear from them how it went. And you inform yourself. Like we it we just like we can be collaborative on the job site among people who we pay to be on the same team. This industry is really good actually at being collaborative, right? Right. You know, I was talking to a contract the other day who says, you know, I I will I will compete with someone tooth and nail every day of the week, and then we'll go have drinks and we'll swap stories and help each other out. Right? Maybe other industries are like that, but our I mean, I hear that enough from enough members that like I'm sold that that actually happens.

Ryan 31:40

So I do I do believe that it does happen. I mean, architects to contractors, that stuff happens as well, right? Yeah. I mean, again, the whole industry is full of humans, and humans want connection, they want growth path, they want, you know, they want insights from others. So we're we're looking for mentoring, we're looking for coaching and those types of things to help raise everybody up because no general contractor can survive if subcontractors are struggling, right? That's absolutely right.

Brian 32:13

You're only as good as your slowest sub, right? Or whatever you risk of picking on them.

Ryan 32:18

But yeah. And it's, you know, they don't always have the funds to do, like you said, some of those things. But being able to, you know, identify the problem that they believe they have, having somebody to help them go through that uh identification area and then ideation and work through your NPR. If you want a team to change, there's internal PR that has to happen to get that buy-in. And I think a lot of things that, you know, I was talking with somebody else, but there's a huge amount of change fatigue in the industry. There is a, you know, almost what I call a time poorness to the industry, meaning we hear a lot. I don't have time to learn anything new, especially, you know, pick on the architects because that's my background. Yeah. Like there, there are so many manufacturers, there's so many solutions, there's so many things. On the one hand, they're like, I like choice. And on the other hand, they're like, why do I have so many? And it's just like you're saying with the contractor, they don't have time to go through that, let alone the resources. They'll say, Well, we'll just wait till the next project's over to do it or to look at it. And I'm always like, Well, that you that's not how you you never want the next project to be the last one that gives you plenty of time to solve all of your problems. Yeah. Um, that's not that's not good business. So I think everything that you're saying is such an opportunity for, and I know you've got 27,000 members, but providing providing that insight, providing some of those tolls, providing, you know, that community. And that's where the human piece again comes into. We all want community. We can all have different views of things. We can, you know, we can have our opinions of it, but we know that each day that we go work, we're part of creating data. We're part of creating something that in the future someone's going to look at and say, productivity level or this or this business, you know, isn't isn't as impactful as as we thought it was going to be. So what we have at our disposal is our own agency to be involved in those changes, look at the innovation from a different perspective than we have in the past, and see, you know, whether you're you're on the site, you're in the office, or whatever part of the business, like all of those things that you can put into place. It might be an ERP system that that just to see the whip in the right way and to see the numbers as a small contractor is enormous to keep cash flow. Or it could be, you know, something to do with that process, like you're saying, like being able to funnel through a lot of the data or whatever part of the process that speeds up information to allow you to be doing what is a you know higher impact on the business, on the revenue, on the business, on the net profitability, because you're focused in those areas. So I think there is huge, again, I'm gonna I keep repeating it because it's it's my belief. There's a lot of opportunity for this current generation that and you know, workforce that is in the industry, and I know it's happening with a lot, a lot of the larger ones, but to start you know, lifting up the small to medium-sized construction firms, helping them through a lot of these changes and acceptance and adoption of innovation. But the other side I would say too is that we've got to be careful of a lot of these innovations and things, we all want data. Like we, well, how did this work in the past? And how was it successful? And how many times have you done it? And as you alluded to, Brian, it takes a lot of humans to do one project, and then when you go do the next one, it's a whole nother team. Yes. So we are almost self-inflicted wounds sometime looking for data that is data that you have no idea who those humans were. You don't know in enough information about how the project was ran. So if we looked at some of this stuff from a viewpoint of like the data is really good, but let me create my own data. Let me show my skill sets and my abilities as well as my team, as well as what I believe we can lead as a project team through this to go create our own data set uh that someone else can look at.

Brian 37:08

And and uh it ties also into the sort of the big challenge of workforce shortages, right? Like you're not gonna retain people if they are spending 80% of their time doing kind of repetitive menial paperwork or some kind of process that could easily be automated. And they know it's automated. You know, like they're probably getting home at the end of the night and calling their friend and saying, you wouldn't believe this stupid stuff I have to do at work, right? You know, oh my God, I just spent eight hours that I could out there, you know, making stuff happen, filling out X or Y form, you know, and and and you don't retain people that way. You retain people, people don't go into construction because they want to fill out paper. They go into construction because they want to, they want to build things, right? They they they they want to see things get get accomplished. And the technology, whether you're small, whether you're medium, whether you're a large firm, the technology allows you to have your people spend more time doing what they're passionate about as opposed to what they are not passionate about. And and that will inevitably lower your turnover rate, right? And it'll keep and it will and it will help you also identify probably some rock stars that you would have never known were rock stars, because all they do is filling out pro, you know, you know, doing process. Like no one became like a process rock star unless they figured out a way to make it faster. Uh, but you know, so I I I again it's not a panacea. There are for every and and I think the other problem is just to kind of pop around for a second verbally, is that you you mentioned change fatigue. There are so many firms that have gone out there and thought they had the solution and invested in it and trained in it and used it. And then they woke up one day and said, holy cow, that wasn't the solution. That's just another problem, or we're just as stuck in process. So we get it. Like we understand that like people feel burnt, but the solution isn't to like the proverbially put your head in the sand and just kind of hope that like you can keep using the same software for 30 years. The solution is okay, let's get together with our colleagues who are thrilled to share information, right? Because that's the nature of this industry, and because everyone in it is really kind of passionate about it. Um you know, one of the advantages of the fact that so few people are kind of recruited in the industry is that people who are coming to this industry do it because they are excited about it. They didn't like see like a go army ad and thought, oh, I could do that. You don't have a job. Most people came into construction because they love it. They love the idea of it, they love what they could accomplish. And so they're passionate and they want to share their solutions. We can, as a community, learn from each other. And and that's not bad. I mean, like, no, we can't have conversations about what you pay everyone. That's an antitrust violation. But there's nothing in the antitrust laws that says you can't learn from each other. You can't share ideas and solutions. And ultimately, to your point, yeah, you know, you could be a GC on a project today and then a sub on another project tomorrow, right? It's in your interest to have people who are sometimes your competitors be just as efficient as you. Uh, A, because maybe they'll free up more people for you to hire. B, because you might be a JV with them, you might be on a project with them where you're sub, but they're your sub, and you want them to be able to rock and roll at your speed. So go ahead. I was just gonna say it's an exciting. I mean, I I do think it's it's there's always there's never really a dull moment in construction. Like it's always exciting, but but it is it's a changing time, and and I guess we see one of our jobs is helping firms avoid that change fatigue and and instead find the solution that that's not gonna be a waste of their time, but actually will make a difference, and hopefully that they can measure, but at a minimum, you you know, at a gut level, you're gonna say, wow, the people in this trailer are actually doing things instead of hunched over a computer all day long.

Ryan 41:08

Right. Well, and I, you know, the the change fatigue is not just a construction industry you know, issue, right? It's a it one, it's a human issue around the technology, but 70%, I mean, the the stat is 70% of change initiatives fail to meet their objectives throughout every industry. It's like the restaurant industry. So anyway, yeah. So yeah. So it's it's you have people implement things. Well, it always, you know, when you're going through a change management, that first stage, like slowing down enough to to drill in to find that core root problem, yes, opposed to just taking on the next shiny thing. And like you said, you know, the silver bullet or magic bullet or panacea, right? Like that's what we all want. And the reality is it's like, well, you're playing just as much of a part in this as the tech. And as leaders go and want to implement. A lot of times, you know, they go into change management and they they say, here's the vision, and they throw it out like everybody grabbed it, you know, magically and is running behind them, taking it on. Well, technology is the same way. Like, yeah, like we we boomerang back all the time, and half the team's using it, the other half's not. Like they're all like, I don't know what we're even doing or implementing this for. That's not the problem I have. So slowing down enough, like you said, to be able to have a community where you're not being sold something. You're actually looking at it like, hey, here's here are our problems, right? Yeah. The issues that we believe we can solve. And there might be a solution that solves multiple ones, but all of them probably not, or it might start to introduce um opportunities in other areas or process shift. But I wanted to talk about the change management piece because empathy-wise, we we as leaders in the businesses to if you are somebody who is driving the change or passionate about the change, there are others who aren't. So you have to be empathetic. You have to understand what that person is going through, how do they feel? And you don't know, like, they're why are they resisting? Well, yeah, you got to discover that. You got to figure it out because the technology probably didn't fail in most of those cases. It probably would have done what it was supposed to have, was supposed to do. It's the humans not all on the same page. It's not the system, the technology, it's not all aligned. Not everyone's bought in. So those are the reasons, you know, the most common that they they struggle.

Brian 43:52

You know, in this industry, we love to pick on the proverbial crusty superintendent who's the object, who's like the obstruction to change, right? Oh, we always done it this way. And I was talking to um uh one of our members who does HR for a firm, and they they've recently essentially tripled in size. And and we've talked about how do you deal with the crusty superintendent? He said, Well, you know, you you just have to talk to them and understand what the concern is, right? She said, sometimes it's as simple as we want them to use this technology tool, and they're out in you know, the middle of nowhere, and they don't have the internet bandwidth to actually use it. It's a time suck for them because they're on essentially like the 2025 equivalent of like AOL dial-up trying to like get a modem signal, and it's it's maybe they need the Starlink for their trailer or whatever it might be, right? Or they, you know, just understanding what their concerns are. We talk about technology, but ultimately it's people who make technology work, right? It's not technology that makes technology work, it's people understanding their needs, understanding their concerns, understanding their their downsides are you know what's gonna challenge them, or maybe it's that they're a kick butt superintendent. I'll try and keep it family friendly, they're kick butt superintendent, but maybe they're not the best reader, right? So maybe we need to give them some other tool for understanding how to use this technology than a 50-page manual, all right? Like we need to, we need to so we do have to meet people because again, I I I mean, I just keep saying it, and I think everyone gets it, like that you could have the best technology out there, but if the people don't use it or want to use it or understand how to use it or know how to use it or are able to use it, yeah. Doesn't matter how much you've spent on the technology, it doesn't matter how great the coders were who coded it, it's how you're able to use it. So, so this is still very much a people thing. Um but but even that crusty, there isn't a crusty superintendent out there who wants to spend more time on the job doing medial stuff. Not one. There isn't a crusty or uncrusty, you know. So, but just figuring out how we get them to that uh greater level of productivity and and being flexible with them, I think goes a long way. And maybe one of the reasons why so many of these change projects, the 70%, which is a shocking number, fail. Yeah, it's maybe it's not that we bought the wrong tool or we bought the wrong software. It's we we we we didn't we we didn't figure out how our people could use it the right way. Or or the other thing is we didn't properly identify there is a lot of value in what is actually the problem, right? Some a lot of things that we think are problems are symptoms of problems. Yep. And how do we actually drill down? Just don't take long, but how do we drill down? Ask a few questions and get to the problem. And when we know the problem, then the solution is that much more likely to be successful. But it does take some, you got to be like an in-house investigator, right? Be the irk cool paro. Ask the questions to get to the core of the matter. So you know, sort of, yeah.

Ryan 47:11

No, it's forensics, right? And you know, if anybody wants to read a good book, there's a it's called Upstream by Dan Heath. Okay. But before the book starts, he tells the story of two guys standing next to a stream um having lunch, and the the children are floating down the stream, drowning, and they jump in to save them. And the one guy gets out of the water, and the other guy goes, Where are you going? He goes, I'm going upstream to knock the guy out and he's throwing the kids in the water. Yeah. Um, so the problem wasn't that the kids were drowning, they had to get upstream, right? So that's the point of the book and the story is that forensic, the time spent on the forensic side. And that's discovery. That's the information gathering, that is the conversations, like you said, with the with the superintendent. And and I'll say this there isn't one job that's that's ever going to go well without having a top-notch superintendent, right? Like they are carrying so much. So the HR person is absolutely right. And this goes for anybody. Go to the person. Change is personal, it is human, and we sometimes hold on, we overvalue what we have versus the future, our current state. You know, we look at it like it's painful, but it's current state. So I don't really want to go through the pain of the change. And I'll say this you're a PR guy. Like, we have done, you know, the innovation in this industry, those who are driving it and leading it, uh, we have messed up the marketing. Oh, for sure. Like, like our disruption, uh, disruptive solution. And I'm like, look, you want to scare people, call it disruptive. Um, that's that superintendent is gonna be like, do not disrupt my site. I can barely get the people here. If I got to take them off the site, they're not coming back, right? All the problems are coming down. So the word disruption is not helpful. No. Um, that's just that's Ryan's pitch for marketing monopoly.

Brian 49:09

We got to get away from disruption. We got to talk about we're making your life easier, right? And and and show them, not just, you know, not to sell. I I remember this was years ago. Um, I won't name the firm, but we had a firm that that loved to talk about how they had they were they had gone all into you know, innovator pro you know, IPD, right? You know, they were IPD and it was bottom up, bottom up for them. And then I went out, I was spending a day filming, and I hop in the truck with one of their like top-tier superintendents. We get five minutes down the road, and he's like, those guys up at the front office love to talk about IPD. I don't know what the hell they're talking about, right? You know, like they're pushing down on us. And then we went out and spent the day in the job site. This guy was one of the most innovative people I've ever seen, right? He had refigured, you know, so something got lost in translation, and no one had gone to him and talked to him about it, right? So it wasn't that he wasn't capable. My day spent with him taught me that this guy could do anything that you asked and could embrace new technology, find new ways to do things. He just hadn't been brought into the table in a way that people thought.

Ryan 50:13

So yeah, you're not connecting the human to the change, right? So, like, here's I've described this a little bit earlier, and you you said it exactly right. It's lost in translation. It is leaders who want to rush through the change because they need it immediately to happen. Leaders who believe, like I just say it once and everybody's grasp the vision and the mission, and we're running down the road. Well, that's not how it works. It doesn't work that way for anyone because it takes, you know, seven to ten times to hear something to actually resonate and recognize it as a human. And they're going to, you know, as humans, we go back to the easiest thing in our head. So it's the thing that we know that we've already perfected that is made us fast. And when we are asked to slow down and introduce new things, like, you know, that is not comfortable. Feel like I'm over here churning because I don't know what I'm doing and it's new. And we also have this other area where we try it once and it doesn't go the way we thought it was going to go. So we put, you know, like you said with the software, you put it aside. Yeah. Well, what did you ever do the first time where you nailed it? It was like your best effort. You know, that's not how we work as humans. So we're, I always try to get everybody to understand is like we are where we are at being as good as we are because we didn't give up the first time. Like we we kept learning from it. And I think the industry, you know, one, if we look at the innovation that is happening and it stops becoming, we're selling something into um, we're gonna teach you how this can help you. We're gonna teach you how this method of construction works, when you need to integrate it to this technology. If we take different approaches, there might be a more willingness to accept, but it isn't gonna work if we don't go to the humans, if we don't engage them in the conversation. And that sounds like a huge lift for small companies, let alone large ones. But if you're gonna spend all the money on the change and it has that high potential of failure, like why wouldn't you invest the money in the human piece of understanding how they recognize change, how they thought the last one went. Like, are they in change fatigue? Like getting into their mindset to understand how they're going to engage during that process. So we've we've gone through a lot of obstacles um here.

Brian 53:49

We've solved all the industry's problems with one conversation. No, excuse me.

Ryan 53:54

No, I I think, well, one, you want to bring it to the to the top because we all know it, we all say it, but we have to recognize our personal opportunity to be a part of it. Yeah. And I I talk to people all the time on big problems, right? Big problems. We sit as a human and we'll say, like, well, what role do I actually have to play in this? That site superintendent looks at, like, what role? I have a project that's what I'm focused on. Yeah. Well, you have an amazing role to play in it. Because if there's eight to ten million of us that are out here doing this, and we all start to shift just ever so slightly into acceptance and trying things and testing them, we're taking a lot of steps into new territory. Um, and that's the other thing is like I talk about new territory. Like, you're not going to know a lot about it when you first start. You are going to gain clarity as you take steps through it. Um, the that site superintendent you're talking about can go solve a lot of those problems because they've probably never seen it or maybe seen something similar, but is willing to take an action step, is willing to step into trying to solve it. And I that's what makes me so proud about being in the industry or having spent my career in it. But like the human still plays a tremendous part to have the technology act like a toll to get, like you said, integrated project delivery. Well, that's a delivery model. So everyone has to be bought in. It still requires the human. The process isn't what solves it, the human solves it.

Brian 55:37

I mean, I I'm a big believer in there, are bad ideas, right? You know, like rebranding cracker barrel. It turned out that was a bad idea. You know, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure Tang maybe was a bad idea. I don't want to like trigger people who are like Coke Zero, yeah, or yeah. Well, actually, I like Coke, classic Coke. I'm a fan of Coke Zero, but it's a whole other conversation. But but I do think that there are relatively few bad ideas, but there are a lot more poorly implemented ideas. Yes. Right? You know, like, and and then we're too quick to say that didn't work, but it's to your point, right? Like I this I think it's every generation. We just assume that we're gonna try something and we have like zero tolerance for it not being successful. But like, think about your personal life. If you want to take up a new hobby, you want to take up, I don't know, kite surfing or whatever it is, it do you actually think you're gonna get out there the first day and like be on like the YouTube video for the nation's best kite server? No, you're gonna be able to do that. You might be on a YouTube video, but yeah, YouTube video for like, you know, I'd be on a YouTube video for how quickly the guy got bloody trying to do something. But like, you know, you'll spend weeks at it, you know. If you want to be the best, if you want to take up fly fishing, do you really think you're gonna cast the perfect fly on the first try? No. Yep. So think about that when we when we're implementing new ideas at work. It's the same thing as in your personal life. It's gonna take time. You're gonna make some mistakes, but just because you make a mistake the first, second, or third time, is it a bad idea? Is it a bad implementation, or is it just we got to figure this out, right? Let's just give it a little bit of time, and then we might get the handle of this. And then once we get the handle of it and actually know if we're doing it right, and we can decide, oh, wait, that actually was a good idea, or that wasn't a bad idea. But, but, but, but, but we need to have, I think, the same self-awareness that we're not gonna be perfect at something new on the first get-go.

Ryan 57:33

Yeah. I'll drop another author that people can listen to. It's Amy Edmondson. Okay. I I talk about her a lot. It's like she's from Harvard, but she wrote the right kind of wrong. Um, and did a did an analysis of how we think about things like you were just describing. And when I read it, I was like, all right, this is fascinating. This is how we should be thinking about it as well in construction. Um, think about a scientist in a laboratory, right? Like they may go in, they go in every day, chemist, whatever, whatever you're part of, like trying to solve a lot of problems within the laboratory. Well, just because you got the wrong answer doesn't mean that you're wrong. It just puts you one step closer to what the right answer is, or one step closer to finding that solution. So when you're working on a project and you're putting something in for the first time, like you've got to be more curious to ask a lot of questions. You have to spend more time to go through that discovery to figure it out. So I just wanted to bring that up because you you made an excellent point of like, you're not going to get it right the first time. Doesn't mean you're wrong. Treat it like a lab, like a project. I know, and I say this all the time, I know that it's very low profitability as an industry. Yes. When you think about net profit and you think about all the risks and you think about all those things that aren't happening. But I also see the opportunity in we need more housing, we need more healthcare, we need to get into the infrastructure side because it's crumbling. And as a nation, you know, within the US and or North America, like if we're not taking care of our infrastructure, like that is a problem for security, national security, and everything else that we have to do.

Brian 59:29

Economic security, whatever.

Ryan 59:31

Whatever it is, yeah. Yeah, whatever it is. So we can play an enormous part by finding out how we can take a couple of steps, one step by ourselves to take on a bigger something that seems enormous, we can play a part in by just realizing like I don't have to know it all. I can make mistakes. And if you're a leader, you have to have empathy, even though the transaction may not go exactly how you want it to go. Like from a transformational side leader, like that person's learning, that person's developing.

Brian 1:00:07

And have some institutional patience, right? You know, like and practice something. By the way, I can't wait to join the book club. You've you like you obviously you spent a lot more time reading than I or I could quote you like bad science fiction or like that, you know, I'm reading in like an eggnog murder mystery right now because it's the Christmas season when we're recording this. Right. But I should be reading much better books. The the uh I should be on the Ryan Book Club.

Ryan 1:00:31

So uh yeah, I'm I'm actually that you know, I'll post this out because I'm trying to get what I want to call the curiosity bookshelf and get some real authors on here that I think would be, you know, helpful for a lot of the listeners who who maybe don't have time to pick up the book. But I I just think there's so many people doing good work out there from what they're writing to get us to think about things differently. So yeah, that's a that's a passion project. There you go. Um I think we're already feeling like today, we're feeling decisions that were made 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, right? Like we are impacted by choices that were made to how the the country kind of looked at and treated construction, you know, over my lifetime, which is almost 50 years now. Like I you and I talked about this. That labor force was shrinking since the AGC, what, 1973 talked about what was coming. So we're feeling a lot of decisions that were made over those decades. Okay. So we're sitting here, and then it's 2026 now, and we are making decisions that other future generations to 10 years to 50 years out are going to feel based off of how we we look at some of the problems we've been talking about. And in reality, I think it all comes back towards we have a shrinking labor force, we have uh difficulty recruiting, we have difficulty retaining, and uh we have uh this acceptance of technology which could benefit businesses, could benefit the individuals in the in the industry now as well as the future generation that wants to come into it. But if we're sitting here today and we know how we feel today, Brian, what do you think success can look like, you know, in that 10-year future if we start taking the right steps?

Brian 1:02:37

That you know, that's a good question. Maybe we'll take it by challenge. I I think on workforce, and I actually think maybe I'm naively optimistic, Ryan, but I think that pendulum is beginning to swing a little bit. But but as an industry, we need to make decisions now to tell a better story of the careers that we offer, right? And it's not hard. We have, you don't need to go higher at, you know, like A madmen style advertising firm to tell that story. Every one of your employees has the tool you need to tell that story connected to the place where you can tell that story. Because the next generation and the current generations, even Gen Xers like me are spending time scrolling on social media, right? So, you know, finding ways to encourage or empower the people that you work with to tell their story will go a huge way. I already, you know, if you I'm not on TikTok, but I'm aware of the existence of TikTok. There are there are electricians, there are plumbers on TikTok who spend who post nothing but them solving problems, plumbing problems, electrical problems. And they've got a fan viewing that would make you know some aspiring stars blush. Uh you know, so we have an opportunity to tell that story. So telling that story, and then at the same time, we need to have serious conversations with policymakers about putting a priority back, better aligning our workforce development priorities as a country with our workforce needs. 38%, I've said this before, forgive me. 38% of Americans are gonna get a four-year college degree. We know that. That's a hard number. Yet the federal government spends 80% of its money encouraging people for workforce development, encouraging people to get a four-year college degree. And only 20% of our federal workforce dollars go to helping the 62% of Americans who are never gonna get a four-year college degree to figure out their career path. So and I do think that policy in this country and a lot of other countries, but I get to worry about the US, policy drives culture. And you know, we're not making the LA laws of construction, right? Or we're not making the um top gun for construction as a movie, in part because we have signaled at the federal level that construction is not a career of choice with our dollars. We're not investing it. Now that's changing. You know, we saw in the one big beautiful bill act that passed earlier this year, you know, they've changed the requirements for how you can use Pelt grant funding, it's a federal grant program for higher education. You can now use it for short-term credentialing programs. That that's not a huge change in and of itself as a policy, but it is a huge change in the sense that the federal government has finally acknowledged it's got a problem that it needs to fix. And we can do more things like boosting funding for workforce training and education, which but but but but they but those elected officials need to hear from the industry, right? They need the CEOs and they need the crusty superintendents to call up their elected officials and say, This is nuts, you know, stop telling everyone to go to college and actually provide some training and opportunity to expose people to careers of construction. And and then we, you know, we we we can we can not only get more people in this industry, but more broadly, we can fix kind of our career mismatch where we've got a lot of highly educated, underpaid baristas, and we've got a lot of highly paid, underemployed positions like careers and construction, right? We could kind of better align what kind of workers produ we're producing as a country with what kind of workers we need. So, so doing that now will pay dividends. This is the workforce development is the ultimate long game, right? Because if you made every, if you got every dollar that we are seeking for workforce development today, that's not gonna produce a new worker for this industry for years to come because that money goes for an eighth grader. That's gonna be at least five years before they're in the workforce. But if we don't spend it today, we're not gonna have that eighth grader in five years. So we got to do that. That's the ultimate long game. So that's one. Technology, we've talked about it, I think, a lot, but just we need to we need to understand the people who will implement technology as much as or more than the technology you're trying to implement, right? So making those changes today, making that mindset today, and we need to do a better job identifying the problems we're solving. And then, you know, things that we can do in the economy, again, you know, the construction industry does not control the market, right? I don't know what controls the free market, but it's not the construction industry. We have a role and we we contribute to the broader economy, but we don't drive demand for office buildings. We don't set interest rates, we don't set tariff policy. But look at wherever 2026 ends up being, whether it's a really a strong year or whether it's a so-so year or whether it's a year where demand is slack in many categories. How do we take advantage of those market conditions, good, bad, or ugly, to make sure that we are still investing in the people where we need to be successful? Someone said the other day, like, invest in that person and delay the new carpet for your office for another couple of years, right? Because the person's gonna make you successful, the carpet's not. So I I think changing that mindset now will pay those kind of long-term dividends. So anyway, long wind, maybe that's a long-winded answer. Maybe I haven't answered your question right, but but if you're if the if the question is, what can you as a contractor do today to kind of make a change? I hopefully we've given you a couple ideas there.

Ryan 1:08:28

Yeah. No, I think it you did answer the question, and actually you you stitch it very well back to that last thing that we were talking about, which is that our impact on the future starts today, and what we feel today, that stuff's already happened, right? Like we know that as humans, but we we sometimes forget it, and it's good to be reminded, like delaying any action, delaying you know, taking that step because who am I to be involved in this? Like you said, like calling on the policy side or spending time with someone that you work with and having real human connection and conversation, right? Which gives, which, which makes things feel more like they're attached to you. Like we need that as humans. Like we we can't just go in and you know, run a process, answer RFI, sit behind a computer and just walk out without any any sort of human connection. And construction does offer an enormous opportunity to build that team um approach to things that I know inside architecture firms, to being in the office on the construction side, like you get to you get a chance to really watch people grow and become the leaders that they needed. So yeah, you answered the question. And I think all of those steps are, you know, they're so they're so important because I think we're we're we are facing a lot of challenges with the economics, like you said, that are coming. And we can sit and we can't change those policies that are driving some of that, but we can begin to work within the construction industry, the full AEC industry. I want to kind of start bringing all that together because there are ways to work as developers and architects and engineers and contractors to begin to look at our communities and those things that we need and start to find solutions and how to approach them, even in economic downturn. That's right. Um, because again, the building is not going to happen. Like if you don't have the project now, it's not happening in 2026, it's a 27, 28. And for healthcare, it's even further. Yeah. But but we do have opportunities by starting to rethink how we're looking at the industry.

Brian 1:10:57

I mean, I get it. Like so much of construction is about that immediate deadline. Where you're like, you know, what's next? What's the next phase? How do I do it? So, in some sense, there's a lot of short-term requirements that you've got to meet. There's always the next next. But the the the members, the industry, the people, the leaders, the the the folks in the industry that are successful are also spending time while they deal with the short, thinking about the long. And you know, they're playing that long. You constantly have to play the long game and the short game at the same time. And it's it's easier said than done. Like, I don't know if I'm always spending the you know enough time on the long game versus the crisis of the inbox as an office worker. So how how do we do that? Not easy, but it's I I do think it's part of the solution.

Ryan 1:11:45

Yeah. Well, and I yeah, that you from a change side or the way we think about it, like you have to have a long plan, but you you build the smaller incremental steps and action steps to check in on towards that long plan. So that when the fires happen, they they may come in, you may have to take care of them. But the other smaller things, the things that you put into you know, smaller digestible um chunks of that greater goal, like you still are taking action steps towards it. You're celebrating those things, you're you're seeing the improvement, you know, day by day. You don't, it can't be immediate. It can't, you know, this a change and a massive overhaul is not an immediate thing. But that doesn't mean you ignore. And that's what I think we're seeing a lot of times. Like you said, you just kind of roll, roll back because the technology didn't work and just kind of ignore it and hope it goes away. Well, that's wishful thinking.

Brian 1:12:42

Yeah, no, that's right.

Ryan 1:12:43

Well, Brian, I know we've gotten the chance to talk a lot. Um, I really appreciate the conversation. It I get excited about it when someone who, you know, you did not come from this industry, you and I have talked about that, but you have taken your skill sets and you've come in and you've seen a problem and and gotten into a large uh association and that is being very supportive of its members and to everyone else. And there are a ton of resources out on the AGC's website. And I, you know, one of the things that I absolutely love that you're doing kind of beyond the project innovation and kind of delivery uh of technology committee and that in the document that you can download with that, but also just love the the culture of care program, which I know is something that that you're involved in as well, which we didn't even get into it, but this industry has a culture issue too. And that's part of, I'm sure, something you think about it every day is like we can talk about an image, but if we're not actually doing it, like it doesn't matter because it's all fluff.

Brian 1:13:51

Well, think about, I mean, think about everything we've talked about in the in the last what 70 minutes ultimately is a culture thing, right? And and and and and because it's about people and collection of people equals culture. And so what we're trying to do with culture care, it started as kind of a workforce tool. How do we make job sites more welcoming, more inclusive, right? How do we get away from you're new on a job site, you make a mistake, and you get balled out. But but we're well, but but it really is a broader tool about how is it that we can, what are the resources and the tools we can provide as a as a trade association for this industry that will help contractors change their culture, initially in the workplace or in the job site, you know, as a recruiting and retention tool, but ultimately also so that you can think about it as, you know, how can you change the culture so that you're you are addressing the mental health needs of this industry? How can you change the culture so that you are creating it safer from physical injury? How can you create the culture so it is easier to actually successfully adopt new technology or new techniques of doing doing construction? It really has become kind of an umbrella for for how we are dealing with kind of the soft skills required to change this industry and to or to make this industry safer or to help address our workforce problems. But but it's it's like the foundational challenge. Like if we can't fix our culture, we can't really fix anything else.

Ryan 1:15:25

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you you brought it up that it's all all connected to all the conversation that we have. I know the culture of care program is out there on the website as well. Um, and I just, you know, it we we forget about it, but it's we have a mental health issue within the industry. And, you know, you mentioned kind of those soft skills. I like to call them like it's being human. Yes, and right if if we can all just start to be a little more human, and actually instead of seeing it as a weakness, like, oh, I'm human, I'm having a feeling today, it's actually a power to recognize that self-awareness, like you were talking earlier, like I am a human, and the rest of us are humans, and we will go through stuff. We don't, we're gonna bring our whole self to work, like everything that's going on in our lives, like it's it's inside of our head. It's in, and we could try to bury it, we could try to push it down, but we we need to care for one another. We need to build cultures that that are inclusive, as you said, to the human.

Brian 1:16:33

And and all the humans involved. And I think we're halfway, I actually think by and large, people care about each other in this industry, right? Like they're they're right. I mean, yeah, they're there are schmoes in any sector of the economy. But by and large, that you know, because it's such a collaborative, it's such a teamwork environment, you do actually care, even for selfish reasons, you care about the next person because their success is crucial to your success. The challenge is how do we show that care? How do we how do we open up and you know, in a in a in a tough work environment where we do tough things, how do we say things like, Are you okay? Do you need help? Right. Right. It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you less skilled as a craft worker or construction professional, um, but it just makes you more human, to your point, right? And and and we're getting there, right? I mean, I think that just in the last five years, uh, I think this industry has really come to appreciate that like we got to get past that macho, everyone's fine, everyone no ain't no problems here, culture, right? Into an environment where, you know, you got to pull someone aside and say, I see you're hurting. How what can we do to help you? Or I think you need to get help. And and, you know, we got a lot of work to do, but we've made a lot of progress.

Ryan 1:17:53

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, each of those steps is progress, like you're saying. And it actually opens up a lot of other opportunities once as we're working towards that to start to take on all these other areas that we sort of focused on. So, so Brian, I, you know, you're the PR guy, right? For the AGC. We've talked about the website, all the resources that are out there, the culture of care. There's there's a lot of other things, you know, all the initiatives that you have going on. What what did I miss? What what do you want to leave the listeners with that that last action step that they could take at their own?

Brian 1:18:26

No, I mean, obviously, you know, visit visit AGC.org if you want to sort of see the breadth of what we do. We have a dedicated website for culture care, buildculture.org. The only other thing is we've got an enormous amount of resources on workforce issues, right? We're including an annual catalog of what this industry is doing right when it comes to workforce development and workforce recruiting, workforce retention. And you can find all that on workforce.agc.org. And then we haven't talked about it, and I don't, it's it's it's a long conversation. We've asked a lot of listeners already, but for those of you in the industry who are worried about immigration and customs enforcement, who are worried about, you know, your workforce, we do have an enormous number of resources available at a site we create. We love to create different little sites, but workforcedonewright.org, workforce doneright.org, uh, where you can find out what to do when I shows up at your job site. Where there are resources to help your people figure out their legal status and see if they can earn that legal status so they don't have it, or earn that citizenship if they want to become citizens. Everything you need when it comes to the kind of the immigration question, which is a we could probably spend hours talking about that. And I don't want to open up that candle words right now, but just a shameless plug for if you're worried about those things, workforce donewright.org.

Ryan 1:19:48

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. I will put all of those links into the show notes for listeners and as we put out on the social media because I think all the work that the AGC has done over the decades, which you're doing now. And Brian, every time I have a conversation with you, like you just said, I think we could have a whole other conversation. It's a great industry areas. Yeah, it's such a great industry. I know Ace, you know, is out there. I'm part of that, getting to mentor young people, tell people to get involved in ACE and go excite the next generation into like why you're passionate about what you're doing. So, Brian, I appreciate the opportunity to get a chance to have the conversation and thanks for uh being a part of Activating Curiosity.

Brian 1:20:33

Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to chat, Ryan.

Ryan 1:20:36

Yeah, thank you. So that is the episode with Brian Turnmail with the AGC. And I know we covered a lot, so there's not a lot to kind of sum up, and there's so much good work that the AGC is doing that if you just check out their website, if you're not a member, and even if you're in, you know, the architectural side or engineering side, like I suggest you check it out. I'm sure a lot of you are aware of the association. You've seen them, you've gone to the events because we're so intertwined on that human connection piece as we're out networking or just getting to know one another. That the industry is really shifting into that convergence area where a lot of you probably work in a design build company. You work with contractors in your office if you're on the design side and vice versa. So there's huge opportunity to collaborate with one another, but to just understand like, hey, you're in the AE side, what can you do to help those within the construction side? Like, how can you do things uh to support them? Because we need them, you know, from the design side. And the same goes for those in the construction side, like understanding what's going on in the architectural world, what's going on in the engineering world, and how can we connect as humans to better understand ourselves and culture as an entire industry? Because Brian's role to go do PR isn't fluff. Like he said, it's got to be real. The gentleman who was telling him five minutes into the car ride, like, I don't even know what we're talking about with integrated project delivery. But at the same time, recognizing that this gentleman knows what he's doing on a project site, but is very innovative. And we miss those things when we don't have the human connection, we don't think of culture being one of the most important things that allow us to be innovative, to lead technology initiatives in our offices or process changes. But the other area that culture side that we talked about is the, you know, being inclusive and the the work that they're doing for women in construction. And there's been a lot of stories that none of us want to hear in Alaska. Couple months as it relates to women on the project sites. So we gotta do better as an industry to be inclusive of women as well as uh minorities. Um, he mentioned that as well with the immigration policy. But it is going to take every one of us to understand ourselves and each other to take steps forward and to lead the change of our own image that the rest of the world sees or the rest of the communities that we're in about what it is the industry is all about. Because you're doing amazing work. You are designing spaces, you are designing infrastructure that impact everybody within your community, everybody within the country, and they are enjoying their lives by those experiences. So I just want to say thanks again to Brian and thanks again to the AGC and thanks to all of you as listeners. Um I know it was a long conversation, hopefully worth every minute of your time. Um so until next time, I hope that you stay well. I hope that you see a challenge and a problem that you really want to participate in and begin to lead that change. Uh, I hope that you're able to continue to activate your curiosity as well as the curiosity within others. The Activating Curiosity Podcast is brought to you by Connective Consulting Group and Connective Curtain part of the Curiosity Company Creative. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. More details. Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.