Trailblazing Mass Timber Adoption: Leading Sustainable Construction Innovation

Summary

Mass timber is rapidly emerging as a leading solution for sustainable construction, but adopting new building systems in the AEC industry requires more than advanced materials. It demands new mindsets, stronger collaboration, and leaders willing to challenge traditional industry norms.

In this episode of Activating Curiosity, Ryan Ware sits down with Kristen Slavin, founder of Conifer Advising and a leader in mass timber development, prefab manufacturing, and construction advisory. Kristen shares her journey from sustainable design in Portland to product development in mass timber manufacturing and now advising project teams across the architecture, engineering, and construction ecosystem.

Together, they explore how mass timber is reshaping project delivery, influencing design decisions, financing, insurance considerations, and collaboration across the construction value chain. The conversation highlights key barriers to adoption—including insurance premiums, fragmented delivery models, supply chain misconceptions, and complex building codes—and why managing change across teams is critical to progress.

Listeners will learn how early adopters are accelerating innovation through hands-on training, integrated project teams, and long-term thinking that reduces risk while advancing sustainable building practices.

Whether you're an architect, engineer, contractor, or construction leader, this episode offers practical insights for navigating industry change and leading innovation in sustainable construction.

If you're curious about building stronger leadership around change and helping drive the future of construction, this conversation is a must-listen.

Chapters

• 1:31 - Introduction to Mass Timber
• 11:00 - Kristen's Journey and Early Innovations
• 21:00 - Challenges in Supply Chain and Insurance
• 31:00 - Launching Conifer Advising and Industry Engagement
• 41:00 - Overcoming Industry Resistance
• 51:00 - Future of Mass Timber and Closing Thoughts

Guest 

Conifer Advising helps accelerate the adoption of mass timber across real estate, design, and construction. Led by Kristin Slavin, who brings over a decade of experience across development, architecture, construction, and prefabrication, the firm works with developers, institutions, manufacturers, and public agencies to reduce barriers and risk. Through strategic design guidance, industry connections, and market insight, Conifer helps teams deliver innovative, low-carbon buildings more efficiently. 

https://www.coniferadvising.com/resources

Connective Consulting Group
Helping construction leaders simplify change, strengthen trust, and move forward with clarity.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Kristin 0:00

They are definitely taking a long-term view on, okay, this is pre-fab, it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be new, it's we've never done this before. So everyone knew it would be less financially attractive than hopefully it would get to in the future, and less probably from like a design schedule point of view, like more headaches. But they also understand that their goal is to create a portfolio of projects that use that system. And so they're doing that learning on the first project and are already seeing like now we've done this, we want to like turn this into lessons learned. So the next one it goes a little better and a little better. So it's really like efficient and hopefully it's sort of big leaps at the beginning and then iterative improvement, you know, down the road.

Ryan 1:12

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Activating Curiosity. I am Ryan Ware. And today's conversation is one that I know a lot of listeners out there in the architectural industry, engineering, construction have been talking about for a long time. And there's been a lot of changes around things uh relating to this topic. And what we're going to discuss today is really around mass timber and a lot of the ways that we're looking at at designing that into building systems, um, as well as getting some code changes and policies. So, no better guess than I think we can we can find today because it's someone who's been designing with mass timber and working with a lot of different portions of our industry to help bring this to to more of us through an easier way to implement and to think about it. And today I have with me Kristen Slaven, and she is with Conifer Advising. Hey Kristen, how are you?

Kristin 2:10

Hey, I'm good. How are you, Ryan?

Ryan 2:11

I am doing well, and I know you had some opportunity to spend time in the Pacific Northwest, and now you're enjoying um Brooklyn. I am looking forward to this conversation. Like I said, I think your knowledge, your experience is going to bring a lot of um a lot of new ways to think about mass timber as it relates to design and construction. So before we dive into the episode, why don't you just tell a little bit about yourself, your past, and and kind of how you got to where you are today?

Kristin 2:42

Sure. Um, well, I mean, going back to the beginning, I actually grew up in Texas, um, went to undergrad there, and decided that I wanted to try something really different. So I went to the University of Oregon for grad school, which really kicked off um my interest and uh career in sort of sustainable building, um, and you know, not knowing quite what that meant back in 2008, 2010 at the time, but went to go work um in Portland right after um from Eugene up to Portland, which is you know pretty normal going to the city to go find a job. Um and there I eventually got to work for a firm called Kaiserpah. Uh and we were doing a really small firm doing developed design and construction in-house with like seven people. So it was really hands-on, um, very sink or swim, uh a little bit cowboy. And that suits my personality and my working style. Um and Ben Kaiser, who's the owner of that, um, was really he really was enabling for people who had um, you know, a lot of initiative and wanted to go try something new. So that's where we got started with Mass Timber. Um, part of it was because the firm was growing out of sort of a townhouse uh scale of development and into more of a mid-rise scale of development. So they're familiar with wood and they had carpenters that they worked with and you know had sort of that history. Um, but at the scale that we were going into, it was a lot less common to be working with wood, but it also coincided with when mass timber was starting to come around North America, um, mostly in Canada, but you know, starting to make its way down into the Pacific Northwest. So that's where I got started. Um lead carbon 12, uh, which was an eight-story um condo building in Portland, um, all mass timber, you know, other than the seismic core. Um, we rolled straight into the canyons right after that. Um, and yeah, we really loved what we were doing. We did some studies through USDA grants and things like that to really kind of push the industry forward. Uh the buildings we didn't set code precedents. And now Carbon 12 kind of acted as the code precedent for the type 4C building code. Um, you know, it's since been adopt adapted from there. But uh yeah, we were a small team making an outsized impact, I would say, on you know what we're doing. And a lot of that was just because we were small, nimble, adventurous. Um, and we were lucky enough to have investors who were willing to come along for the ride and the bank that trusted us and insurers that trusted us. And um, yeah, we were able to make it work kind of under the radar um at the time. So that was really fun. Um, but also, you know, when you do one project every few years, because you're doing everything from land acquisition through to potentially property management, it's very limited in terms of the number of projects you actually get to touch. Um, so while I think we were doing amazing work and it was really fun and the team was great, I wanted to see, you know, a couple things. One, what does it look like to live outside of Portland? I've been there for 10 years and was ready to try something new. Um, but two, you know, how do I scale this impact that we started into something that's a lot bigger than just, you know, me and and our small team and our small projects in Portland? Um, so I went into prefab manufacturing. Um, natural next step for an architect. Step into manufacturing. Um I went to go work for Sybalk Labs uh for a couple of years, um, first based out of New York, and then after a year and a half there, um, our team refocused out to the back to the Pacific Northwest, the Seattle area. Um, so it was in the Seattle Banbridge Island area for a year and a half, working on starting our first factory. Um eventually that shut down. You know, it's startup, it was uh backed by Google. Um and um yeah, thank startups sometimes fail, you know. But I think we were doing really great work and pushing good ideas. So straight after that, I went up to Vancouver, BC. Um went to go work for Intelligent City, was there for a couple of years, um, and was leading all the product development at Intelligent City, which is also a prefabricated master manufacturing company. Um that company is further along in terms of both the investment as well as you know, fabrication. Um, there's a shop outside of Vancouver, they're building projects. So it was fun to sort of step into the next phase, you know, um, of what prefab manufacturing looks like. And it's definitely got its challenges, but I think it's really um a lot, there's a lot of value add there beyond just the master package. Um, although I think mass timber on itself is great. So um yeah, and at the beginning of last year, I I spun out and um started conifer advising. And now I'm helping teams across that entire value chain, all the way from architecture design, development, um owner's rep work through to the manufacturing side of things, helping um in some cases general contractors with pre-construction, sort of settling out like where is the scope split, how do we price this, you know, who are the players, how do we get in touch with them? Um, and getting into the weeds um on projects and on products. Um so yeah, I've I've sort of plug in where I'm needed, but because of the experience across that value chain, it's um I have a unique perspective, but I'm hoping to bring those different perspectives together so that various teams or projects or manufacturers can start to see the other side of the equation. Um because what I found is that, you know, in architecture, you're not really used to knowing where your trees are coming from or your concrete, where is it mined, where's the sand mined? You know, we don't know that stuff. Um, but with wood, it's definitely more uh, you know, we're more connected to it. It's natural, we feel connected to it. So we want to know more about it. Um and it's newer in terms of the industry. So there's a big supply chain that's developing, but you kind of need to know more in order to mitigate some risk for the developers in order to, you know, sort of know, okay, is this gonna work? Is the manufacturer gonna be around? What we need them, you know, what does their supply chain look like? How much risk is there, and try to mitigate that as much as possible. So yeah, trying to bring those point of views together to reduce risk for projects, reduce risk for developers, and get NASTIM built.

Ryan 8:59

Yeah. Well, I love that you said it's a natural path for an architect to go into prefab manufacturing. That it's so true. I mean, it's that's where my path led, um, which I think kind of drew me to to your profile, is that you you have such a unique path of studying architecture, going through, practicing, um, and then getting a chance to be a developer through a process. You're looking at it through multiple different lenses of how this methodology of construction and this, you know, the way you would have to think about it from day one all the way through to the factory and then going into factory. So I think that's such a unique um kind of uh portfolio career that you've developed to this point. And then, you know, starting Conifer advising what's it, this this thing that you were like, hey, I've noticed this, that that you know, people are are resistant sometimes because factories do, startups do fail, and you're seeing some of these struggles of, hey, if mass timber is going to be able to succeed and take off, and I'm seeing this passion from architects wanting to know it, that someone needs to help bridge this gap. Was that sort of the the signal that went off and the problem that you said, hey, I I want to dive in and solve this and help people solve it?

Kristin 10:23

That's definitely part of it. I mean, having been part of a couple of startups, I know how difficult they are. You know, it's just um relentless. You know, you have to be relentless to get them to work. So I think um, which is, you know, fun if you've got the drive for it and you've got the the sort of energy, right? Um, but not everyone does in that process, in the process of building a building. So I do think that's definitely part of it is trying to translate that drive and passion and energy and relentlessness of like what the prefab manufacturers need to do in order to make their business work into well, how does this actually reduce risk for the developer? Because for them, they don't want to see their project at more risk because they think it's cool, right? They just can't underwrite that. Um, and so I do think that's definitely part of it. Um, but the other part of it, to be totally frank, was you know, I was ready to try to bring a lot of this experience together in some way and talk to a bunch of different types of companies about how I might do that. Um, you know, was it looking at working for a GC and trying to bring that experience together for them and, you know, trying to unblock some of that general contractor concern? Or was it working for a development company and, you know, trying to like walk them through it and be sort of a, you know, a developer, um, which I think is also a great path. But um, in the end, I started it because no one company was willing to commit a hundred percent of my time to a mass timber. If it didn't work for them, I would have to go work on something else. And that's just not something that I was really willing to do when I knew that I have a big network, a skill set that's very niche and very unique. Um, but I think that you know it's valuable and can be valuable to people, and maybe they just don't need it full-time. Um, and so yeah, I'm I decided that I would try to do this on my own and make my own full-time job, basically, um, doing the work that I wanted to do, but spread it across multiple companies, which I think is also, you know, again, going back to that impact piece of it is a greater impact than I could have had necessarily at one company.

Ryan 12:25

Um Right. Right. Well, that's powerful. I mean, you're you're you're like looking at it from my purpose, what I want to do. I want to be able to dedicate 100% of my energy because it's not draining to me in some of my areas, that I'm I'm going to dive in. And I I do, you know, as you describe it, it's thinking like, hey, not every company is going to need this, but from a fractional standpoint or or temporary uh project-based sort of uh experience and knowledge bringing that in into this area. So it's helpful to kind of frame it in that way that you're starting this business, you like you mentioned, what, a year and a half?

Kristin 13:07

Um yeah, a little over a year ago.

Ryan 13:09

Year ago, but your expertise is, you know, far greater than that.

Kristin 13:14

Yeah. Um over a decade of mass timber only, right?

Ryan 13:17

Yeah. And you mentioned something, you know, and then I think this is where, you know, we talked about risk. You mentioned it. It's it's the whole industry sees it. And whether it's mass timber or any other type of prefabrication, whether it's designers to developers and the risk that needs to be taken on to how insurance companies are going to look at it, to to funding, um, those are all pieces and parts of it, which tends to be obstacles or potential resistance for people as well as even designers, because it's a new sort of territory for them. They've never they're not quite sure what to do. And I'm sure now that you're about a year and a half into it and you've seen some of this, you don't have that resistance, right? You that you dove into this, but probably had to from the manufacturer's perspective, try to help other people get through some of those. But if you're thinking through it, what are the most common sort of from a mindset standpoint, those resistance and obstacles that you tend to hear that are real feelings, but things that you're helping people sort of navigate through?

Kristin 14:28

I think a big one is the misconception that the supply chain is um, you know, frail or undeveloped or something like that. Um, or that it's overcapacity. Um, I think that's a big one. People think that there's, you know, just simply not enough. There's not very many manufacturers, you know, in in North America and in the US specifically, they're very few. But um, that doesn't mean they don't have capacity for your project. And so that's a big one. Um, people think, oh, we're just gonna be at the back of the line, it's gonna take two years or whatever. That's simply not true. If you look at the Pacific Northwest market study that uh me and uh a group of uh cohorts just put out earlier this uh earlier or late last year, you can see that they're actually under capacity, like they would love more projects, you know. So um they they're they have big plants, they can make a lot of stuff. Um, right now they're under capacity, they can add shifts so that they can build out even more capacity. Um and they need that. Um, and so I think that that is one misconception that I'm able to dispel fairly quickly. Another challenge is insurance and financing. Um, insurance in particular is difficult and it's expensive. There's a premium if you're doing a mass chamber project, typically for the builder's risk insurance and then potentially for the you know permanent um building insurance as well. Um it's wildly variable at premium. So it's important to know which companies to go to, who's doing the research. Um, you know, Zurich has Zurich North America is an insurer that has a mass timber specific program, um, and they've done a lot of research and they're advocating for it. So, you know, there are insurers that you can go to that understand, you know, the nuance of Mass Timber. Um, but there's it's still not a commonplace thing. So you can't just go to the same, necessarily the same broker you've always used as a developer. Um, and at the same time, they're also, you know, uh often uh, you know, potentially requiring additional consultancy. So in the case of um a recent project I was just involved in, the insurer said, yeah, we can, you know, insure the mass number project, we can do the bills risk. Um there's a small premium, but definitely nothing near where they were getting quotes from other insurers. But one requirement was that they had to have experience on the team. And this was in a jurisdiction that does not have very many mass timber projects. So there's not a lot of experience in, you know, the region to draw from.

Ryan 16:58

Right.

Kristin 16:58

And so that's where I stepped, you know, come in. I can basically come in as on the owner side as sort of a mass timber owner's rep, you know, kind of specifically, so that I could help them fulfill that requirement and also reduce their risk. Um, on the design side, you know, in that case, it was um working with the developer. And then once uh sort of pre-construction got more serious, then transitioning over into the GC sort of pre-con side of things to help walk them through it as well. But yeah, so that's um insurance is a big one. I don't know, it sort of depends on where you are and who you're talking to, but everyone's got slightly different concerns. Um, but I do think that there are paths around those right now that you know you they're nuanced, you have to find them, but um, there's there's way to build ways to build with mass timber now, and it's not as prohibitive necessarily as you think it is. I do think that there are some places where there are real issues. Like I sit in New York City. Our building code right now is extremely prohibitive for Mass Timber. They allow it up to you know eight stories, but there are a number of code provisions that make it really difficult from a practical standpoint to actually build with. Um, and the way that they're interpreting the code is very different than the way that the rest of the country has been interpreting mass timber codes. So, you know, it does come down to sometimes just very practical conversations that you may or may not get through um with the jurisdiction. And um, yeah, and I I'm, you know, I would encourage people to sort of do that early. Um, you know, I think there's another mistake people make, which is conceive of the project, get through, you know, SD or something, and then try to then engage with the jurisdiction, the fire department, whoever it is, and it's too late. You know, you need to have that conversation way before you commit to a decision like making mass timber. Um, if you're in a jurisdiction that hasn't adopted code that allows it or or is, you know, particularly difficult um to work with when it comes to mass timber.

Ryan 18:55

Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes we can think those are outside of our control, but but as you just said, it's like starting those conversations, going going to the jurisdiction, because building code is, you know, there were some there's been some changes as you mentioned, your project was able to kind of work through and kind of set the precedence for a lot of those changes. But because jurisdictions are all going to be different, yep. I could see New York to when you, you know, from that side of the country to the difference of Portland or Seattle or San Francisco, right? And so, yes, building codes are are always a big part. The one thing that you said that really caught my attention was this insurance premium. And I start to think about the sustainability side of mass timber. And I think about how insurance companies are currently raising prices due to climate change and all of these other things that we're talking about. And we're like, oh, we're gonna build a building out of mass timber. Well, there's a premium on that. Yeah. And that's it's almost mind-boggling to me. Um, when I'm thinking about it's like it should be the opposite. Like there should be premiums on things that that are maybe causing more insurance premiums to rise because we're not addressing that. So that that caught my got my attention for sure.

Kristin 20:13

Yeah, I've definitely thought about that too. Like, okay, this building has um, you know, maybe it's increased risk to water damage in the case of a fire because the sprinklers go off and then it's wood and it stains or whatever, you know. Um, but what other risk are you reducing? And how does that play into it? You know, it's um, yeah, I think that's a conversation that's not being had at that level and should be. Um and you know, the whole idea of insurance is that we're all pooling our money together so that when one building has an issue, there's money to cover it. So if you know, if it's it's interesting that the buildings are insured on the individual building level, but in reality it functions as sort of this collective pot of money that we're drawing from. Um the collective pot is built out of a bunch of stuff that makes makes the problems worse. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan 21:06

Well yeah. I mean the water thing, I'm I'm sure they'd probably hit on that, but I'm like, yeah, but you're gonna shove a bunch of drywall in there. Uh what are we talking what are we talking about? Um and the other thing is the supply chain. I think that's a powerful conversation as well. Is it's always been, you know, anything that is innovative, so dr, you know, design for fabrication, when we get into that sort of discussion of prefab, which mass timber is is part of the the factories and and this is where it's always been a challenge with people, is like not knowing, you know, when you first start working for somebody, like we need to bid it. We have to put it out to bid and just you know get the lowest number. And that's a different uh it's a different way of thinking about getting these factories involved in a design assistance process earlier into it. doing qualification-based selection. Now they're they're way ahead of of a bid to know, like you said, what their capacity is and how they can plan and deliver around these things. So they become this, you're engaging these, these outside sort of groups that now are bringing expertise in, like you mentioned. So yeah, it's good to know that they have that capacity. It's also one of those fears that people have, like you mentioned about startups and and younger companies. It's like, we've seen this with major uh groups like Katara and others where, you know, the money's gone because the capacity is not there. So we're almost sometimes in the industry we use things as an obstacle to barrier to not try something without realizing like, oh, we're actually creating a problem with some of these factories because of the way we're engaging with them. So um can you share a little bit then based off of what you're doing and and looking at these, you know, the premiums and things, those are things that you you can't necessarily adjust. We can do things and have conversations. But between the supply and the building code or the jurisdictions, um these obstacles like you're trying to help solve these areas where the gaps need filled by an expert and expertise to to sort of like you said stitch a lot of these things together. And that seems you know like a critical component to getting mass timber adoption higher. So can you talk a little bit more about how you're engaging, how you're working with all of those different groups?

Kristin 23:45

Yeah, um so when I sit on the owner side of things is um you know sometimes it's just a straight owner's rep kind of role um and then I'm able to sort of give direction to you know the design team or the contractor um to you know look at things a certain way or you know um give the resources whatever it is um but primarily with the eye of like helping the developer get through this process with you know hopefully less headache than I've done in the past. You know, we want everyone to learn from mistakes of people who have done it. And you know our first project was great but it was not without hiccups for sure. You know and we were leaning on the experience of our manufacturer who's coming from Canada in order to teach us about how to do stuff. So I think it's a little bit of like passing that on um because it was really important and you know they came down and worked with our framers to talk about how to install stuff and you know what does this look like how many people do you need on site things like that. So yeah and then if I'm working with the GC it is andor the architects to be frank it's often a question of soap. Where do things start and stop? Who's doing what um how do you deal with like very particular pieces of code like you know for example in the Mass Timber in the IBC for Mass Timber if you have a column and a beam coming together that connection needs to be fire rated um in a specific way like the joint itself needs to be uh considered and so that's created a at first it was like well how do you do that? This is not something like you know if you have a steel to steel connection like that joint itself is not necessarily considered it's just like the whole thing is fire rated.

Ryan 25:32

Right.

Kristin 25:32

But they you know they put certain provisions in the code that said like or like a slab to a beam right that needs to be sealed in some way to prevent air movement um in the prevent of the fire. So there's like stuff in there that's really really nitpicky that people don't necessarily they kind of skim over it. It's in a different part of the code than you know the height and area limitations, things like that. And so it's finding those little things and working through it with the design team to come up with a cost effective solution that the contractor can actually execute or that potentially the mass timber fabricator can help implement in their package to reduce some of the questions about well, you know that's a that's a fire stop issue, but it's in the middle of a structural joint. Who takes responsibility? Who does it? When does it happen? Like how many people do you have to have on site at that given moment when those two pieces come together and kind of reducing hopefully you know some of the on-site issues with the sequencing and and management of people on site.

Ryan 26:33

Yeah. And that's something very critical that you just said is like you're you're pulling these conversations up during the design and the planning, which means the room is filled with different group of people who are also you know coming from offices, factories and fields to come together to collaborate through that. So um that's where I think the design assist piece that you're talking about in a lot of the services that that you're providing through this you know defining of the scope and and nailing those things down it's it's it's interesting because as you're describing it, it's like anything new that we've not seen we throw things at it and see what sticks. Yeah. And like you said it's like we don't think about it with a lot of the things and the ways ways we've been building but I'm like man we've been building with mass timber for a long time you know globally but yet it is new. You know it's sort of this new thing that that we're getting back into because I remember when I first started designing and practicing even doing wood studs was like all right we got to get out of these um we got to get into metal studs right so I've I lived through that transition. So you you mentioned something too and I think this is this is I'd be interested in your thoughts on this like factories can come down and they can teach and they can educate while the project's going on and like you said you're jumping in and that's you're bringing all these perspectives to it as as an outside expert and kind of consulting through you know I'm sure you're you're out doing training as well there's that on the job training while you're in a project and the key is while you're doing that you're trying to make sure the flow of the field is going in a way that yeah it may not go perfect. There's going to be challenges because it's new but we're trying to eliminate some of those so you can carry it forward to that next project. But like from an industry standpoint I know there's the Mass Timber conference and all of these things but we as an industry like we want to get our check the box credit to learn something. And in this case this is more designing with something that like is beautiful when you're when you're done right and never structure can be but it's you know it is different than other structural systems, right? So when you think about like how to educate before you're even thinking about starting on a project where it isn't going in and teaching it from a standpoint of a CEU or other forms like how are how's the mass timber industry in the way you're thinking about it too is like how do we get more people to to look at it differently than than a typical training seminar so that they are ready to to kind of dive into that first discussion before they get too far down the path.

Kristin 29:23

Yeah I mean I do have to clarify I don't think the manufacturers would choose to train every project team you know that's not their business model. They don't necessarily want to have to employ um a bunch of people to go around training people to do the job you know that they're not even that the manufacturer's not even responsible for. So um yeah I do think that some of what I'm doing is hopefully also to alleviate some of the issues with you know where the manufacturers are having to provide services they never anticipated having to provide. They don't that's not their expertise um and it eats into their bottom line and it frankly increases the cost of the product because they have to employ people that they wouldn't otherwise employed. And um so I do think that part of what I'm doing is hopefully helping alleviate some of that service side of uh what the manufacturers are doing. Often the manufacturers are coming up out of the forestry industry out of you know mills or logging or whatever, you know, somewhere in that sort of um mill supply chain. And that's they're not used to engaging in projects in the way that you know these projects require at this time. So every project is unique. Every design team's slightly different unless you're really really got it honed um and that sort of custom project level service is a lot for these manufacturers who are used to producing commodity products. And so yeah it's a bit of a it's a bit of a shift in it's a massive shift in the way that they work um and it's a shift in the way that architects work because they also don't usually work directly with manufacturers on things.

Ryan 31:03

Right.

Kristin 31:04

It's a shift in the way the contractors work because you know a lot of the stuff that is getting designed into projects they're responsible for but might not even be buildable. So I do think that one way that we could go about this a little bit differently is to do more hands-on training. Like there is nothing that will teach you something faster and more thoroughly than being on a job site doing it, you know, doing the thing you're trying to do. And so if you know we were able to sort of host um we being the industry, you know, um sort of host more hands-on training and getting people out of their own shoes and into some work boots and into someone else's shoes and trying to figure out how things work on site, the design side, but also teaching you know the framers or whoever about you know why certain design decisions are being made from a code side or from you know whatever the upstream requirements are. I think that would lead to a lot better understanding across the supply chain and then you know maybe better collaboration on alternative solutions. And that goes all the way back to the building departments because sometimes they they approach the building code from the position of you know here's a here's a concern we're trying to mitigate. And so they put a sometimes it's a solution that they put into the code. But sometimes that solution is not the only solution like it's rarely ever the only solution to mitigate that issue. And so you know just sort of creating more collaboration in an industry that has been fragmented in a very hands-on practical way on a job site or on a you know maybe there's like pilot builds that happen near factories so you can come and like do a multi-day hands-on workshop of like how things get made and get go come together see it so that you're learning through that hands-on experience but not on the back of a project you know ideally when it's too late um yeah I I think just sort of uh you know we're in a time where it's not just mass timber. I think every project type is gonna have to expand you're gonna have to expand your understanding expand what you are potentially even responsible for and what your risk is you know there's all in construction there's all this risk shifting um and that and that comes from contracts and league legalities and insurance and like how can we create project structures through the teams that enable this collaboration to happen I think that's a big question.

Ryan 33:35

Yeah it's it's a big shift I think all around yeah it's and how we think about it from a business standpoint as architects, engineers, contractors like there's this convergence, right? So industrialized construction is that convergence mass timber is playing a part in that as well and like you said and that's why I wanted to ask the question because a lot of times I think everybody shoves it back onto these factories. Yeah and it is a huge lift for them and at the same time I think of it this is me as a as a designer and someone who's worked in construction and and fabrication is like how can I help people understand like hey deliver model needs to be looked at different your role the way you've thought about it in the past is not the same as it has been throughout your entire career. So different delivery models need to be investigated to your engagement and role in something I always talk about is your understanding what means and methods are is different than what it used to be in the past. Because an architect's now engaging with mass timber in a way that potentially they they wouldn't with port in place or precast or steel or whatever, right? Like they may they they may look at their structural engineer and think hey they're going to take care of it. I that's not really in my wheelhouse and that's not true from what I understand think about with mass timber. And then as I move through it it's like training people like yes how do you think about it from the design standpoint but then there's the budgeting piece and and the estimate piece because I've been on panels for mass timber and you kind of get the same question you get out of any sort of multi-trade solution which is well how's it cost different than than this solution and it's like well it's a multi-trade solution or it's not a one for one. So you can't just get that from the factory and hand it to an estimator. So I I I I think what you're saying is so powerful of like hey we need to be more curious before we're into those projects and creating these experiences that people can go through where yes they need to learn on the job and we should probably be willing to pay more for people to try things sometimes even though we have low profitability in our industry but how how we're given what you were given early in your career that that laboratory feel of testing and trying and learning and growing without any kind of fear. So the whole industry has a responsibility to not push and lean on the fabricators it has to be all of us to say hey how do we create experiences so if it you know an individual wants to go to an off site and kind of see this work being done or explore it and it's yeah it's not a you know a pizza lunch with a CEU somebody's teaching you about it right and and creating that as as an opportunity to to learn and accelerate sort of our knowledge base as it relates to this. And like you said, I think it's so true that prefab from any direction is is that we have to be taking that different approach to it. Which makes me start to think is like we yes contracts have to evolve to these new solutions. Yes codes do. And we as humans like we're in kind of control of all that we can take agency and and and work we made them in the first place. Yeah we made them we can right we should be able to figure that out um so I just think you know what's happened with a lot of other prefab and I you know modular and everyone else it's gotten into this this area that everyone has gone fragmented it has gone siloed we we rely on everyone else to kind of just do their thing and I don't need to know that because that's not in my job and not not part of my role and it's really just because a contract and and lawyers have made it so that we are siloed to some extent in insurance companies to kind of pull back and go like okay if I was starting from scratch like how would I change this industry in order to be like as an architect and an engineer thinking about this, pulling in those fabricators and talking about how you know things are going to change from a process and design integration to to the role of you mentioned the how does it go together in the field in those flows. So I it's just one where I feel like if we don't this is me personally and let you kind of answer it too is like there there is a cost we're already paying by not involving ourselves, you know, as individuals to solve some of these problems. And the cost can be both in that we never get to design the mass timber project or all the way through huge insurance premiums to climate change issues or name it, can't get things built. So what other cost or what cost do you see to the industry if the work you're doing right um wasn't there? What like what might the industry feel but what might also occupants and and the future generations feel if we don't start to solve some of these?

Kristin 39:18

Well I think we're already seeing it. I mean housing prices are huge like skyrocketed have skyrocketed especially relative to wages right that's why we are in this situation with this housing crisis across really the world but you know I'll speak to North America because that's what I know. So I think that some of that you know pushing risk around and fragmentation has created a situation where we're building even concrete traditional you know buildings inefficiently in a way that costs so much money. And you're right like no one's making a ton of money on these things. I mean there are developers that make a lot of money but a lot of developers are also on really thin margins. So if something goes wrong in a project they're losing money. You know it's it's it's a quick turn um and things always go wrong because we're human and that's how it'll go. But um I think we've just created this really sort of wildly inefficient system through this fragmentation that um isn't sustainable even economically. So I don't know I think looking at you know where where I started which was at a small company doing everything it really and and we did it successfully and it was there was definitely fear. We definitely had moments of like oh God what are we doing? But you know you just work through it.

Ryan 40:37

Right.

Kristin 40:37

You have to deal with that uncertainty and kind of keep going or justify it. You know, if you can't justify it make a different decision. But you know actually work to try to figure out what you're doing and why and then make it happen. So I think that that speaks to incentive alignment. You know, we were all under the same roof you know it was run by the same person. It was you know so the architect the developer and the contractor were all aligned to make this thing successful, make it work, make it happen, make it happen on schedule, you know, figure out how to make it happen on budget. And because of that incentive alignment we were able to get it done. And in a time where there was no building code that would have allowed it. So it was you know completely a shot in the dark and um luckily we were in Oregon and they have forestry industry so they were also aligned incentive wise with the project. But I think that that sort of like that might be a a model to look at or at least a a framework to look at for how we move forward and start to take away some of those fragment that fragmentation in the industry. How do we align incentives across that sort of you know value chain of a building and and spread that risk around so that people can take on roles that they're not used to but they know that they're aligned with you know the architect might take on maybe additional roles that they're not used to taking on but they're aligned with both the GC and the and the developer because they're in some sort of JD or whatever that looks like, you know um so they're participating in the upside as well as you know the downside risk. And I think that there's something to be said about that that could be looked at more for sort of again any project type it doesn't need to be mass timber it could be anything.

Ryan 42:26

But sort of aligning those incentives and not having just sort of a constant like pushing around of you know that's not my role or my decision or if I do that I'm gonna get sued, you know yeah so well and that's the human piece of it is that that fear that it's just easy it feels easier to just run away from it. But I I think what you're describing in your own experience is like yeah sure we had it but who else was going to do it? It was a laboratory it was an opportunity we we assessed the risk we understood it and I think sometimes in life maybe we look at it like what would I do if I knew I couldn't fail versus what would I do if I know I can fail? Like how far will I go to drive change knowing that I'm not gonna be good at it you know the first few times and because it takes a lot of humans to go design and build a project. And as you described it with this small firm that you were part of where you played all roles that kind of leads me to like yeah that's an integrated sort of project delivery um you know the IPD model kind of design build and that collaborative. And I think I think you said it so well too is like we had to step back as designers, architects and engineers and contractors and everybody involved. And just because situations were one way when we started in our career or currently where we're at, like we can't solve future problems if we're not looking at the situation Changing, like it's changing around us and the need for us to take a step back for a moment, say, like, I can unlearn. I it doesn't devalue how I got here or how I'm going to work through this, but I'm willing to look at it from a different perspective. And that, you know, the challenge for our industry, I think, is that it does take a lot of people from all of the trades that are on the project site to the superintendents, to um everybody in those factories, everybody in the firms, everybody in the engineering and the developers, like everybody involved, like it isn't just a project anymore. It's the whole project has to become this culture of learning. And if you're into that incentive-based alignment or IPD, right? Like it is supposed to be about the people, the culture. Like, how do you create that culture that allows it to be accepted, to allow people to, as you said before, go learn, you know, go try things that that you've never done.

Kristin 45:12

And I think there's also like, I mean, I architects that I talk to, which is a lot, and I and I've talked to a lot of different types of architects. They're all interested, right? They're all interested in the learning, they're all interested in mass timber, but they're all also a little bit scared of the ramifications legally, a little bit scared of the ramifications from a fee perspective, or you know, is this gonna be inefficient? Like, am I not gonna be able to make money on this or you know, whatever it is. So they're interested in the learning side of it, and I think they're interested in that collaboration, but not quite sure how to get there without, you know, failing too badly. Like I think you can fail. There's like different levels of failure, right? There's like failing a little bit, and then you're like, oops, that that kind of hurt, or there's like, oh, I just killed my firm, you know. Um, and so I think there's sort of like people should remember that it's you know, it's okay to fail sometimes as long as it's not like gonna kill you.

Ryan 46:06

So it's yeah. Well, and I think you know, coaching, you know, doing coaching now and kind of working with everyone, it's like, hey, you gotta have enough empathy to to work through those things. And yes, there are levels of failure and how you kind of define that, but like a lot of you know, a lot of times in our in our worlds, right, a lot of the major failures, not just in construction, but in anything, have happened because there was no psychological safety for people to to feel like they could speak up and talk about things when they felt like something was amiss or something could be possibly going wrong. So I think that's a culture change within firms. And and like you said, it's it's there's always that curiosity. Part of me, you know, I work a lot with modul, you know, modular groups or other prefeb. And I'll I see these arguments of like, what should we call it? Like, what should the name be? How you know, all of these things. I'm like, when are we just gonna learn as an industry, like as architects and everyone else? You know, take all of your own, you know, experiences, life experiences, and believe in your own ability to learn and navigate through this. Like you're talented, you're trained, yeah, like you're experts. And our whole journey through design and building is to be facing things that we've never seen before and being able to work through those and kind of adjust to them. And I think sometimes we, like you said, those fears we don't name them enough. We don't pull back and try to understand them better to to look at it like, hey, what's our process now? Because you're you're already designing and building buildings, right? Yeah. So you're already doing all of this.

Kristin 47:56

Yeah. 90% of the way there, right?

Ryan 47:59

Yeah. So now it's just a belief in you know what you're capable of doing. And I know that means you're you're getting engaged in things you've never seen, like you said, you're handing things off that you thought had a lot of value that now maybe aren't working anymore. But I think that those are obstacles that are easily passable by understanding, like you, you don't know how you don't know what you don't know yet, right? Yeah. But if you can see a few good action steps in front of you by partnering with someone like yourself or having those factories there and everyone else, like, yeah, you're talking about it a lot earlier. And it is a lot cheaper to talk through it in the office than it is when it's starting construction, to start engaging those conversations.

Kristin 48:48

I would argue it's it's, you know, maybe cheaper is the wrong word, but um it's better, less like the there's an there's an opportunity to talking about it in the office versus the alternative, the other alternative, which is to not talk about it at all.

Ryan 49:03

Yeah.

Kristin 49:03

You know, which is, you know, you could do it on job site, which is expensive, or you could just not do it at all, which is right. You're losing out on an opportunity to do things more efficiently, um, create a building product that is better, that is, you know, people are happier in, that um is renewable as a resource that improves sustainability for yourself, but also you know, for the occupants, but also for you know the neighbors and whoever else is around you, not creating all this crazy dust in the air from concrete and you know, all this other stuff. So there's an opportunity cost to it that's also not really discussed as much. Um, it's usually a dollar.

Ryan 49:43

Yeah. No, that's a valid point. It is. It's we we think, oh, it's more expensive because it's mass timber, but we're we don't think about the things we're already paying for. And you know, I'll I always use this line. I think we're paying way too much for conventional construction um because of how we're doing it, and we think other like other things cost to, you know, how much more does this cost? And it's like, all right, you're already overpaying for what you're getting right now. Um, but until we, as a as an industry, look at these delivery models, look at these methods of construction, to begin to think about processy changes in our own mindset, those costs would eventually, you know, more than likely come down because there are premiums thrown onto it, you know. Anytime it's new, everyone increases their prices because of the risk. And instead of uh of an investment into their business and their company to go out and try those things, right? So it's all covering up whatever whatever they can to protect. And I I get it. You're running a business that's all fair. Um, but we've we we all have the ability to go and learn from one another and provide those spaces, like you said, like it's costly to not talk about it.

Kristin 51:09

Um and that I mean there are you know early adopters, I guess I'd still call them, but you know, are doing that, taking that long-term view. Um one of the projects I was involved in is um called Hull Sets up in Toronto, and that was with Intelligent City um and windmill development and meterlane are the two developers that's joint ventures on that project. And they are definitely taking a long-term view on, you know, okay, this is pre-fab, it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be, you know, new. It's we've never done this before. And um, it was the first full system building that Intelligent City built with like all of their components, you know, not just a pieces of the components. And um so everyone knew it would be, you know, less uh financially attractive um than you know, hopefully it would get to in the future, and less probably, you know, from a schedule point of view, like a design schedule point of view, like more headaches, right? But they also understand that their goal is to create a portfolio of these buildings, a portfolio of projects that use that system. And so they're doing that learning on the first project and are already seeing like, okay, we want to now we've done this, we want to like turn this into lessons learned. So the next one it goes a little better and a little better and a little better until you know it's really like efficient. Um and hopefully it's you know, sort of big leaps at the beginning and then iterative improvements, you know, down the road. But um they are you know, there are companies that are seeing that. Um they are incentivized again. Comes down to like some sometimes like how things are funded in a different way. They're using the One Planet Living framework, which um allows them to access funding that is, you know, aligned with sustainability goals and actually requires meeting sustainability goals. And so, you know, it it's the money, the the money they're getting is sort of pushing them in this direction anyway. Um, but they're seeing that as, you know, a way to improve efficiency over time um for themselves as well.

Ryan 53:15

Yeah. I mean, they're giving themselves the platform and the time to learn, right? It's like, hey, what we don't want to just do one project. We think we think about everything as like one project, well, I'm on to the next, and I'm kind of you want to stack those life experiences, and they're saying, hey, we're we're seeing this opportunity to think about our process holistically as it relates to mass timber. And that I think that's true of any prefab. So if you're a firm that that is looking at mass timber, like it isn't a one-on-like your mindset's gonna shift with mass timber, the same it's gonna shift for any sort of you know, kit of parts all the way through modular, like yeah, it's gonna it's going to be some new process and opportunity to begin to be a little different player than you were on the project before when it was traditional or conventional construction. And I and I also think like we know there is a labor force kind of change that's happening drastically in the construction industry, and it has been my entire career. Um, we've been talking about it for almost 50 years plus. Um, and we have not done anything about it. And I think architects, since we're both coming from that background, like we used to think we didn't have any control over any of that. And I'm like, but we do like designers have such power to understand how the trades kind of work within the the GC framework and subcontracting to these factories of who is nearer sites and things like that that provide huge opportunity to make decisions earlier towards those those areas of fabrication or other solution types that will bring the best building to the client, to the community, and and probably require less demand on the labor force that allows that labor force to go also build something else. Yeah. Um, and take on additional revenue that way. But I think by not recognizing our new role with each part of the industry, um, that tends to slow it down. That tends to not see, like you said, the cost that we're paying now.

Kristin 55:39

Yeah. I think architects need to remember that they were not just trained to design buildings, they were trained in design thinking, and that is so flexible. Like you can think about how to design a team structure or how to design a business structure or how to design so many other things that are required to make these things happen. Um, and so think using your design thinking to bring that collaboration to the table or encourage it, um, I think is is a skill that we have. And we just need to think about our training, you know, a little bit differently. Um, you know, we in school, like it's brutal, you know, you get a lot of criticism, it's fine. Um, but maybe we can just take that thinking somewhere else, right? Into a different sort of um piece of the pie. Um, so I I think about like the extremely productive conversations I've had with GC and the sub sitting around a table with me, either in the architect's seat or in the, you know, especially in the pre-fab manufacturer seat, um, where the whole conversation starts with, hey, this is what we want to do. And it's like very much like, no, that's not possible. You know, and then you're like, okay, cool, what's possible? Like, how would you do this? This is the goal. How would you do this? Here's the here's the concept, right? Think about a building. Here's the concept for the building, here's the concept for this piece or this process or like whatever it is that we're trying to achieve with the right people at the table. Like, how would you want to do this? And then it sort of gets them talking a little bit more about you know their preferred way. And then you chime in and say, Well, we have this other code requirement. Like, what do you think about that? And it's just, I think there's just a different way to interact with folks like that, but also they're not used to it. You know, the I remember like talking to the plumbing subcontractor on on a project, and you know, we were trying to coordinate every penetration in the prefab system, like every single penetration. Right. And I was like, I need you to tell me how big these penetrations are and where they need to go because you're gonna run your pipes, like where you know, you you know where you want to run them. And they're like, Well, we'll just do that on site. I'm like, no, no, no. Like we're cutting this in the factory. You're not gonna be like cutting apart these panels in on site, like it's gonna be chaos. So can you like uh can you tell me some rule of thumb? Like, how can I go about like getting this down? And they were like, all right, well, you know, well, maybe we'll give you a first drawing and then you can take it from there. I'm like, cool. So they gave me a drawing, and then I took that and was like, great, what are the fire code requirements? What is our fire stopping detail that's approved look like? How does this you know hole need to look in order to meet their requirements? And then sent it back to them and said, like, hey, what do you think? And then there were like minor tweaks, you know, but they were like, okay, great. Like we've never done this before. And I'm like, I just like I just need to understand your logic a little bit so that I can build that logic into the thing that I'm doing, rather than making me making a ton of assumptions and you being like, what the hell was she thinking?

Ryan 58:34

Yeah. I mean, it's a it's a great story because it's I mentioned before where my kind of past came from. And that's what I used to tell everybody is like, look, you're we're gonna shift. People in factories are suddenly acting, they're thinking the way an electrician, a carpenter, and plumber, as you just said, because we're pulling these things forward to put it into a factory, which means they have they're no longer conceptual. They're not schematic, right? And I think the engineering world and a lot of other areas, it was like decisions would be made in the field by individuals who were capable of reading drawings, but weren't in the room, like weren't weren't there with you as an architect, weren't thinking about certain design features. I used to tell everybody is like, hey, if I walked in a room and I saw what I call waterfall of devices, it drove me insane. Like, what is happening? Well, it's commandic drawing. So everything's at a different height, it's on a different stud, and it's just all over the place. So the level of detail and control back to designers to also work along with those from the field to and those in the factory to get back levels in control of design. Um it's the same you if you're doing pre-cast, poster pre-tention slabs, it's you know, you're coordinating all of that um before it gets fabricated. But that's you know, a lot of times in a shop drawing phase. But as you're talking before, it's like, hey, it's bringing uh huge opportunity uh forward to make it start to I love how you said it, go back to our design thinking and the way that we're actually processing that information and opportunity um besides just designing things. Yeah. So it is a it is a new mindset, it is a new kind of way to think about our, as we mentioned before a couple of times, our roles and kind of responsibility to uh to work through these these challenges of integration with any kind of solution like Mass Timber. So you've been in this portfolio career that we mentioned before. You've been a designer, you've worked with a developer, you've seen projects from going out to find property all the way through, you've been in factories. Now you are focused on helping other people through this. So for from your point of view, what what does success look like not only for yourself and this business, but for the industry moving forward as it relates to mass timber?

Kristin 1:01:11

I think success looks like for the industry, um, specifically, like continuing the growth that we've had that we've seen of mass timber adoption, it's not a lot from a percentage of construction standpoint right now, but the growth is massive um year over year. It's it's really growing as a typology that people are picking up. Um so I think that continuing that trajectory, even in a flat line where it is, it's still quite a high growth curve.

Ryan 1:01:39

Right.

Kristin 1:01:39

Um would be would be great. Um, I don't I would love to not see it slow down just because of, you know, basically trying to step from the early adopter mode that we're we have been in into the mainstream. Like that I feel like there can be some fumbling that happens um across that that I'd like to see avoided by people sharing experiences, people being open to collaboration and um and not feeling like they need to, you know, control all of their own knowledge in order to sort of have some sort of competitive advantage, right? I don't think that's the way it has been operating um in Mass Timor because it's just too small and people, you know, they've been super open and and lovely to work with across the industry, even if you're sort of quote unquote competitor. So I think that's been really nice. And I think that's sort of um critical to getting it pushed into this sort of mainstream position that I think it should be in. Um for me, like I for me and my company, I you know, I don't really see I again I started this company because I wanted to do the work that I have been doing and I wanted to pull people together and make projects happen. So success for me is like that just keeps happening, you know, and and I help bring that um, you know, what I think is critical for the industry success to, you know, to the table um for folks. And yeah, get to go work on cool projects with good people and get some buildings built. Um and uh yeah, get onto a job site with some wood again, you know.

Ryan 1:03:16

Well, I'm I'm glad you took you you took the leap and from uh from an individual standpoint, like a lot of people they they hesitate, right? They're some they're passionate about something and they hesitate because they worry they could, you know, fail. And that definition is broad. But for you, you said, hey, I there there is an opportunity here. And also you young in your career, you're a part of a project that's changing how we think about building code. So you just never know, you know, when you get to take those those opportunities. So, in order to kind of wrap up here, if someone is curious, is there any sort of next steps or action items that you think they should take or could take to kind of activate that curiosity for them?

Kristin 1:04:02

I mean, I think that attending conferences or other things is a good first step because you'll be around a bunch of people doing the work, um, especially, you know, the Mass Timber conference I go to every year. I think this is like the 10th year, and I've been every year. And it's like going to a reunion because it's like all the same people that I've been working, you know, with or next to in this industry the whole time I've been doing this. And it's really fun to catch up and see what they're working on and how they're evolving, you know. And um, so I think that sort of getting into like conferences are great for the education, but they're way better for the networking. You know, it's like go to meet people who are doing the thing that you want to be doing and see how they're doing it and talk to them about how they got into it and you know, see if there's a path that you could sort of emulate or craft for yourself. Um everyone's super open, uh, really open to meeting, open to helping. Um, I do think that if you're you know starting a project and you're really seriously considering a project in Mass Timber, reaching out to somebody like me or other consultants in the space who have experience on projects and can help you avoid some of the pitfalls that we've seen across the industry. That is a great first start at first stuff. And, you know, yeah, you're gonna have to pay a consultant. It's that's part of the business model. But if it saves you a bunch of time and headache and rework, it's also gonna save you that money, that rework fee that you're not gonna get if you didn't, you know, do it right the first time. So I think that there's um a lot of opportunity for collaboration and on the project level. Um, but yeah, if you're just now starting to think about Mass Timber or Prefab or whatever it is, um, I would say like go talk to a lot of people who've done it. And um yeah, we're out there, you know.

Ryan 1:05:54

Yeah. Well, I'll definitely we'll share your information in in the show notes or website. And some other links. You mentioned the cohort. I know that there was a document that you shared that can also have part of the link so people can access that.

Kristin 1:06:09

Yeah, that's on my website. It's free to download. So it's yeah, open to the public. Anyone can read it. It is like 300 pages, so it's uh dense, but good.

Ryan 1:06:20

Yeah, that's a good weekend read. Um so well, I appreciate like all of the work that you're doing. I think there has to be individuals like yourself that are out there who have taken, you know, your passion, put it into an opportunity to help other people um, you know, work through some of these challenges because like you said, the adoption might be low, it's growing every year. I think the prefab world is sort of sort of the same as mass timber. That there is just a group of people who are all looking at this differently. And it's not things aren't sales pitches and most of those things. It's literally just trying to rate, you know, help all ships rise um and and accelerate the adoption of these solutions. So um I'm again very grateful for your time and and appreciative that you were willing to come on to the podcast and kind of share your experience and and wishing you the best. I I can't wait to keep seeing all of the uh information that you're putting out and the work you're doing. And uh thanks for being a part of Activating Curiosity.

Kristin 1:07:28

Thanks so much for having me.

Ryan 1:07:29

Yeah, thanks. Have a great day.

Kristin 1:07:31

Thanks, you too.

Ryan 1:07:32

So that was the episode with Kristen Slavin with Conifer advising. And I I really do care a lot about this conversation. I think if there's one project type that I wish I would have had a chance to design and build in my career, it would have been a mass timber um high rise and other kind types of projects using mass timber. I I just think that throughout my career we've changed um materials and our ideas behind it and seeing mass timber really take off while I got to spend some time on the West Coast, seeing a lot of the work that was being done by by project teams and contractors on the West Coast. Um, it just was so exciting to see something different than the way we had always been designing buildings. And I think as we continue as an industry to gain more information, but also do more exploration, as Kristen said, and finding ways to get out to factories or get to project sites and kind of getting out of the conference rooms to learn, I think it's going to help us kind of increase our abilities and knowledge around how we should be thinking about mass timber, um, as well as any sort of new delivery model to any new method of construction. So I hope that you know, you as the listeners and and and those on project teams that you're starting to have these conversations internally about how you're thinking about your role designing with a lot of these systems like mass timber, of what has to change in your own mindset to how your firm and your practices looking at it, to how you're thinking about it as a contractor, and and beginning to build relationships with um the factories and those that are actually producing a lot of the these uh solutions so that you get a better understanding of how to engage with them. But also understanding like it is important to have this expertise like Kristen um playing a part in it, um, because that will help elevate a lot of your own team members inside firms and inside businesses that will just help you scale quicker with these solutions. So again, I hope you enjoyed the episode. Um, I hope it gave you enough insight and enough uh sort of excitement to go out and and do some more, do some more exploration. So until next time, I hope you continue to find ways to solve some of the problems that you're seeing throughout your career and without throughout the industry, but also hope that you're able to continue to activate your own curiosity as well as curiosity within others. The Activating Curiosity podcast is brought to you by Connected Consulting Group, Connected Curry, the Curiosity Building Curriculum. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. You'll never miss a comment. Share the podcast with the network and help us bring more curiosity into the interested in becoming asked for visit us at activatecuriosity.com for more details. Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.