Beyond Saint Podcast

Unlocking Catholic Confession: Insights with Father Daniel O'Mullain

• Ira DeWitt • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Join Father Daniel O'Mullain as he demystifies Catholic confession, sacramental life, and faith traditions. Explore the purpose and evolution of confession, the difference between venial and mortal sins, and the significance of priests' attire. Discover fascinating insights into incorruptible saints and hear candid stories about confession in unexpected places. Whether you're curious about Catholicism basics or seeking spiritual clarity, this enlightening conversation reveals how confession renews baptismal grace and offers a therapeutic path to forgiveness without judgment. Perfect for believers and seekers alike.

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SPEAKER_01:

What is the weirdest place you've done confession in?

SPEAKER_02:

What was the name of that restaurant?

SPEAKER_01:

Why do priests wear black?

SPEAKER_02:

I think because it's very slimming.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. If you weren't a priest, what do you think you'd be doing?

SPEAKER_02:

I would have loved to have played soccer professionally. Like a realistic one. Nothing seems realistic at this point.

SPEAKER_01:

We go to confession, we're not being judged, right? It

SPEAKER_02:

doesn't take very long, serving as a priest, to hear everything.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's so interesting that the saints' bodies don't decompose.

SPEAKER_02:

We're probably the only ones digging up bodies.

SPEAKER_01:

We're here today with Father Daniel O'Mullain. I'm going to ask you all the questions that people wanna know, but were maybe too intimidating a task. We're gonna learn about the basics of Catholicism. What makes Catholics different than other Christians?

SPEAKER_02:

I think for one, being in alignment with the Pope. So acknowledging that the Pope has an office that comes to us from Peter, And through the laying on of hands, so like through subsequent generations and the passing on of the powers of that office, he still occupies a place for us today in perhaps the governance and the teaching authority of the church. Probably the most significant thing, which is shared by some other churches, is the sacramental life of the church. So we have seven sacraments. I've invested a lot of time in that because when you're giving your life away, you want to make sure that you're giving your life away to the right thing. But I think the sacramental life is terribly significant for us because this is how the life of grace is communicated to us.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's so interesting that the saints' bodies don't decompose.

SPEAKER_02:

Some.

SPEAKER_01:

Some?

SPEAKER_02:

Some.

SPEAKER_01:

What do you think that means?

SPEAKER_02:

I love digging into these things, as you know. And there's a time, and I'm not sure if I'm fully out of it right now, but I just used to think we're probably the only ones digging up bodies.

SPEAKER_01:

We're just going around digging up

SPEAKER_02:

bodies

SPEAKER_01:

to see who decomposed and who

SPEAKER_02:

didn't. So yeah, we're just like, so we're just discovering that some bodies decompose. No, some of them are really...

SPEAKER_01:

Are they embalmed? No.

SPEAKER_02:

No, they're not. If they were embalmed, they would not consider them incorruptible, I believe. There's a great book on it. I think it's Joanne Carol Cruz. I think she's written on other miracles as well. But the book is The Incorruptibles. And it's fascinating to see how many saints are considered to be incorruptible. i do think it's a it's a strange phenomenon and a lot of people attribute it to sanctity i i think that it's perhaps a foretaste of the resurrection so the sense is of course that you know as as human beings we're we're bodily we're bodily animals we have to be bodily animals and god wants god not only affirms that in many in many ways including becoming one becoming one of us um but he also affirms that in the resurrection of jesus to say actually The human being as body and spirit is something that he wants to preserve for all ages. And so what we anticipate is, though we may die, anticipating Jesus' return, we will be raised bodily from the dead to live a new bodily life. So I think it points forward in a powerful way to the resurrection.

SPEAKER_01:

Tell me about confession. What is the purpose of confession and how it's evolved over time?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, confession is, we go to confession for the forgiveness of our sins. So, I mean, I want to start with simple, right? Some theologians liken it to a renewal of baptismal grace. So the idea is it's not that you're plunged into God's life again. You don't need to be. That's happened once. You have already a grace operative in your life. But then we do things in our life. We We don't serve God with our whole heart. We give ourselves away to counterfeit gods or on fruitless pursuits. And we need to be regrounded again in the life that God has given us. And so confession, it does renew baptismal grace in us. It renews God's own life at work in us and working through us. We need that in order to live as Christians. And confession is our reacquisition of the same in that sense.

SPEAKER_01:

I find... confession really therapeutic. I think it's like the original psychotherapy. Yeah, yeah. You know, because you kind of feel lighter after you leave. Maybe it's the prayers or maybe you get something off your chest. I always feel lighter after confession.

SPEAKER_02:

There are so many things that go into it. I think there is something liberating also about even just being able to speak truth about ourselves to someone else.

SPEAKER_01:

When we go to confession, we're not being judged, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, I don't think so. The only judgment that's happening is... is a judgment that seeks to put things to rights. So the idea is that judgment actually sorts things out. So we're going to confession because we recognize that we've done something wrong. We've offended against God. And God then, he's judging the thing that we've done wrong. and he's also able to unwind some of the consequences of those actions. So it is judgment, because if we were to go into confession and God were to say, I judge that that thing is not wrong, where are we at that point? So I know I'm making it too complicated. I'm making it too complicated. So when you come in and...

SPEAKER_01:

So you're never behind the veil going... You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, the thing is, you know, it doesn't take very long serving as a priest to hear everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the shock value is gone.

SPEAKER_02:

No, it's, I mean, people perhaps don't like to hear this either, but I find confessions to be pretty boring.

SPEAKER_01:

Good, I kind of like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because, you know, a lot of people don't go in and confess their sins because they feel intimidated.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I get that because actually, because when I go to confession, I'm sometimes intimidated.

SPEAKER_01:

What do priests confess about?

SPEAKER_02:

Everything. All the same things. Really? All the same things. All the same things. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I've got to step down off the pedestal now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But that's okay. We don't need to be on one. We do go to confession. I tell my people all the time, well, a couple things about confession. One is that I go more than I want to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we have to, I think. We have to go more than we want to. And then I say, you know, as a rule of thumb, I think going once a month or going once every six weeks is probably good.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm ahead of the game.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you're...

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't go for like, oh, like maybe 20 years, maybe 30, maybe 30, I don't know. But then now I'm like...

SPEAKER_02:

The

SPEAKER_01:

difference between venial and mortal sins. Can you list them?

SPEAKER_02:

So if we were to try to go case by case, we'd have a very hard time saying these are venial and these are mortal. And part of the reason why is because there are criteria for classification of mortal sins. So do you have a sense of even what those words mean? Because a lot of people don't.

SPEAKER_01:

I think the mortal sins are like... uh missing mass on holy day of obligation and murdering people i know that's a big spread that's a big

SPEAKER_02:

no we just don't we gotta tell people if you're missing mass if that's like murdering somebody you know well that so there so there are criteria for a judgment of say when sins become mortal sins so it has to be about

SPEAKER_01:

i need examples from you

SPEAKER_02:

Let me give you the three conditions. One is grave matter. The second is, say, intellect. So knowing that it's grave matter. And third is that full consent of the will. You know that it's wrong. And that you do it with...

SPEAKER_01:

Intent.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It feels like a criminal court, like actus res mens re. You knew, it's like the difference between first and second degree murder. You knew and you acted on it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and there are a lot, of course, as you can imagine, these things are debated ad nauseum, especially around seminaries and places of formation. And there are some people who take a very extreme position and say, If those are the criteria, then they can't be met. And so nobody's committing mortal sin. I don't think that's the case.

SPEAKER_01:

As

SPEAKER_02:

someone who has committed mortal sin, let me say, I

SPEAKER_01:

know

SPEAKER_02:

that that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01:

So let me paraphrase. So you have to knowingly know it's a sin and act on it, knowing that it was a sin. Willfully act on it. Okay. Why do priests wear black?

SPEAKER_02:

I think because it's very slimming.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Isn't that what they say?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. It listed on everyone.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. We're looking good. I mean, that's what it comes down to. No, I think there's some denial. This is what we say, quotes, denial of the world. But really the idea is not to be caught up in worldly things. So very often in the church, a lot of the things that we have and wear and do They have a history that kind of makes sense. We just kind of grew into it. So the Roman collar comes from what we had before, which was Roman street wear and all that kind of thing. So these things developed over time, and I think the symbols kind of developed over time. But that doesn't mean that they're insignificant.

SPEAKER_01:

So are there times that you don't have to be in your clerical suit? I'm not wearing it

SPEAKER_02:

to bed, right? I hope not. Yeah, and I think for me, precisely because... clerical gear, I think, or clerical outfit or whatever, it's a sign of your availability as a priest.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's what I think anyway. And there are times where you're not available. So there might be times, and of course, I mean, any number of these things can generate a firestorm of discussion because people are super invested in it. But if I'm going to go out with a family, I'm going out to be with them, I'm not going out to be available to the other people that I might run into as a result of going out with them. So if I go out to a restaurant with a family, I might not wear clerics.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I don't really want to be a spectacle. There is a certain amount of ministering that's happening to that family. I'm trying to love them. I think when we're plying the trade, then we ought to be properly attired. And that's probably a better rule of thumb than to say, you know, eat, sleep, and drink, whatever, in the clerical suit.

SPEAKER_01:

Father Thomas told me that one time he was on an international flight and the seat next to him was empty and he told the flight attendants that he was doing confession. And he was kind of joking about it, but then it ended up being a real thing. What is the weirdest place you've done confession in?

SPEAKER_02:

What was the name of that restaurant? Where was that last night?

SPEAKER_01:

Penzanella last night? Was that the weirdest case you ever had? Oh

SPEAKER_02:

my gosh, I'd have to think about it. I've heard confession in an airport before, just like in the middle of an airport. I was at, what was that? It was a, it might have been a political event for a friend of mine, and after a Someone asked me to go to confession

SPEAKER_01:

there. Yeah, I'm glad I could add to your list now. If someone asks you that

SPEAKER_02:

question. Some random restaurant. Sorry, it's not random. It's a very good restaurant, of course. And if they want to sponsor saints, then I'm sure there'll be opportunities

SPEAKER_01:

for that. We have more rapid-fire questions. Rapid-fire questions for Father Daniel O. Lang. What is adoration?

SPEAKER_02:

So adoration usually is the host that you see at Mass, usually the big one that the priest has is going to be put into a monstrance. A monstrance is this ornate, silver-looking thing that sits on the altar, but there's a window. And so you go into the church and you're going to pray with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. So that's adoration. What are

SPEAKER_01:

the benefits?

SPEAKER_02:

The benefits, I think, you know, very often we even talk about the fact that sometimes we don't feel or sense God's presence. But I think when you have Jesus exposed in the Blessed Sacrament in front of you, the whole thing just feels much more dialogical, feels much more relational.

SPEAKER_01:

Intimate, too. Like you're just like one-on-one with Jesus. Yeah, yeah. I read a statistic that said 80% of teenagers or college students abandon, Catholics abandon their faith while they attend college.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What's going on? What are your thoughts on

SPEAKER_02:

that? Yeah, I've heard something like that before. I think there is another response or interpretation of that coming to light these days, which is more like we lost them before that.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, interesting. But

SPEAKER_02:

now they're, say, willing to identify that way. So there are other surveys that show kids will usually lose their faith maybe around the beginning of middle school. And a lot of that also is through... They're dabbling in science.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's oftentimes then also your kid's science teacher. So there are some challenges there.

SPEAKER_01:

I definitely was one of those people. It took me another probably 28 years to come back.

SPEAKER_02:

I hear you. I mean, I think I was similar. I mean, I've kind of grown up somewhat cynical and, you know, very... you know, again, oppositional, right? So it's perhaps anti-authoritarian to say, that kind of stuff is not for me, or I don't believe it, I don't trust it, that kind of thing. And I think science becomes something of a safe harbor where it's like, I can have these intellectual pursuits and whatever. And this is like more dependable than the stuff that people are telling me about the faith. But I think there are a number of challenges there. One is that, in that sense, science can't prove itself. I mean, there's not any way to set up science except with its own self-evident principles which themselves can't be proved by observation and science is just about observing things and measuring things and then predicting outcomes based on past events

SPEAKER_01:

but then people latch on to like you said they want documentation they'll latch on to like crystals or astrology and like I was saying to the other father Daniel this has been studied and Jesus is the most documented person in all of history like who's more documented and written about than Jesus yet they'll be like oh oh, like I believe in the universe and karma and this and that, I'm like, okay, and what's your proof for that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Other than your own anecdotal experience.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, I mean, look, the universe in that sense can't make domains of you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and people have their own rules. I don't believe this. I don't believe that. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, you made up the rules now?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. That's not how life works. That's not how religion works.

SPEAKER_02:

I do think people are trying to find safety, security, like that kind of thing. And I don't think that Christianity is your landing place if you're looking really for safety and security. I think it's your landing place if you're interested in having a relationship with God, a real relationship with God, a real relationship with Jesus. And Jesus can walk into your life and upend a few things. And I'm not sure that people are terribly inclined to have that happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Father, can you tell us a little bit about what made you get into the priesthood? Because I always wonder what makes people abandon the thought of having a family and children and decide to pursue a path in priesthood because it's really like a selfless thing. So tell me a little bit about what made you get into that.

SPEAKER_02:

It can be a selfless thing. I hope that it is for me. Yeah, I think I grew up pretty normal upbringing. From the time I was six or so, I thought I was going to get married, had girlfriends, pretty serious girlfriends along the way there. Maybe at eight years old, it was serious girlfriends. But yeah, I always just thought, I mean, that's the culture that I was growing up in, very family-centric, thank God. Good, solid family. My parents have good, solid marriage. And yeah, that was where my focus was. I never thought that I was going to be a priest. In fact, I didn't want to be a priest. And interestingly enough, I think looking back on it today, I'd have to say I was being called to the priesthood, which is why I can say to you as well, I didn't want to be a priest because I think that God along the way was asking that question of me, but my response was no. So for anybody who knows me, I'm oppositional. I'm very

SPEAKER_01:

oppositional. ODD, oppositional defiant disorder.

SPEAKER_02:

It certainly rises to the level of disorder, I would say that. So it's not surprising, even God would ask me to do something and I would be trying to say no to him. And then, yeah, when I was in my early 20s, it started coming to me that I was going to have to take the time to figure out whether or not I was being called by God to be a priest. So that was toward the end of my time in college. And then the years immediately following those, I was really thinking a lot about it, praying a lot about it, actually still trying to avoid it. And then I went into seminary and spent a couple years in seminary. In seminary, discerning, praying, studying.

SPEAKER_01:

Can I ask you a quick question? Yeah, you got it. While you're in seminary, it's kind of like a meditative process to decide if you want to be a priest or not. Or at this point, are you like, okay, this is what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I think it depends. I think it depends. So for me, do you mean, or for people generally?

SPEAKER_01:

Like generally, if you're in seminary, can you be dating a girl?

SPEAKER_02:

No, although there was a time not too long ago, I mean, probably 40 or 50 years ago or so. Maybe it was more recent than that, where actually in seminary, formators would be encouraging the guys to, to be dating. But it's such bad, it's not, what do you say, like common wisdom? It's like totally out the door at this point. It's not a good thing to be thinking that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, by the time you enter seminary, you should have almost made peace with the priestly lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, at least with the potential sacrifice of family and not dating and the rest. And again, there's... I don't know, I think people usually speak about these things out of their own experience, and they'll say, oh, it was really important for me to have girlfriends growing up or to have been in a serious relationship. And then, of course, you've got a lot of other people who will say, you know, it's not terribly important. I was never in a serious relationship, and it didn't really matter in terms of my own discernment, figuring that out. Yeah, and for me, I think I could probably go both ways. I think there's some sense of being in a serious relationship does foster something of other-centeredness. So I'm not just kind of centered on myself. I'm willing and able to make sacrifices for the other. And I know what compromise in relationship means. But beyond that, I think, again, for me, again, had some baggage from relationships that then... made it a little bit difficult to discern my path forward, certainly as a seminarian, growing to embrace what God was calling me to. So I spent two years in seminary, and then after that I took a 30-day retreat, so a silent retreat. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Silent retreat for 30 days? 30

SPEAKER_02:

days,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. I think I can maybe try one hour, and it's tough for me.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a

SPEAKER_01:

lot.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a lot. And, you know, the retreat is intended for a state-of-life discernment, as well as, say, going deeper into your vocation, into your calling. So... It was good for me. It was a very kind of foundational experience in my own life, my life of prayer and faith. And eventually the fruit of that retreat really allowed me to not be so oppositional with God and to embrace what it was he wanted for me. And that was the priesthood.

SPEAKER_01:

That's very cool. If you weren't a priest, what do you think you'd be doing? Have you ever thought about that?

SPEAKER_02:

There are always things that I think I'd want to be, I would have wanted to have been doing. Like? I would have loved to have played soccer professionally and growing up in England.

SPEAKER_00:

Like a realistic one.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, that's the point,

SPEAKER_00:

right? Nothing

SPEAKER_02:

seems realistic at this point. It's like it's just what God wanted me to do. But when I was coming out of college, I was coming out of college with a dual major in economics and theology. That was my undergraduate. I always thought that economics was... going to be my practical degree. That's where I'm gonna make money. And then theology would just be my passion. And I remember going out actually to, I'm from New Jersey, I'm living in New Jersey, so I went out to a diner, okay? Went out to a diner with a good friend of our family's who was at the time, I think he was working for Fleet Bank or whatever, one of the big banks. And I was going out to eat with him so that I could see whether or not there was an opportunity to work. And he said to me, I do have one regret in life, and that was not really checking out the priesthood.

SPEAKER_01:

Father, when you say you were called to priesthood, like, what does that mean? Is it like a voice or is it like something in your heart or...? How does that look like?

SPEAKER_02:

I think we all experience it a little bit differently. And I've never... I don't think I've ever had the kind of auditory... I'm tempted to say hallucination, actually, but I'll just say I've never had the auditory experience. You know, those clear words. And I know that actually a number of people have had that experience, but that's not my experience. My experience was actually growth in trust. It's perhaps a strange way to say it, but there was... a good and wise Jesuit that I knew who would say, discernment is not about clarity, it's about trust.

SPEAKER_01:

I like that

SPEAKER_02:

quote. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Discernment is not about clarity, it's about trust.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because I think usually we're looking for the answer to our question. Probably, in reality, we have some inclination, right? We have some understanding of what the answer is. and it's ours to perhaps trust it more deeply. So yeah, I mean, by the time I was committing myself to ordination, I was convinced that God had called me to the priesthood and I was making then this reciprocal yes, and as much as I could muster, right? So God is giving me his whole self and I'm pouring myself out to him in that particular expression. So saying, I'm going to say yes, okay, I can follow you, Jesus, into the priesthood.

SPEAKER_01:

It's such an incredibly selfless path to take in life. It's also like eight years of going to school. What's that about? It should be like 18 months.

SPEAKER_00:

You

SPEAKER_01:

know what I mean? It's like, I want to say... but I'm not. I'm committing myself to others and God, and now I have to go to school for eight years on top of that? That's an incredible, that's like medical school.

SPEAKER_02:

That's

SPEAKER_01:

a lot. It's quite an undertaking.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a long process. It's a long process. And I think it's daunting. It's not for the faint of heart. I

SPEAKER_01:

bet it's hard, too. And you have to learn Latin and all sorts of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Thankfully, you can get by without learning too much Latin. But I think it's...

SPEAKER_01:

When you go to give someone their last rites, are there any common themes that you see or you recognize or observe in people that... that was like insightful to you or like it could be insightful to other people?

SPEAKER_02:

Going to see people at that time of their life is, I mean, that's tough. It's tough all around. And it's not pleasant also for priests. You know, it's just not. It's a tough time. And sometimes you have family around, sometimes you don't have family. You never really know what you're walking into. But what I would say is I think that People derive great comfort from prayers. So when I walk in, trying to pray with the people, and if they're conscious at all, and you don't really know, right, because it's very hard to measure, like I'll say the Our Father or something, and you just see their mouth moving and the way that So

SPEAKER_01:

sad.

SPEAKER_02:

They would have to pray that

SPEAKER_01:

prayer. But it's kind of happy a little bit, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, it's great, yeah. It's sad, of course, but it's great to see that they respond. And sometimes you go and see people who have not been responsive really for some time, and you start praying, and they're responsive.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's great. It's enlivening, right? I mean, prayer, we want everybody to pray. And in part, at least in part, because we know that prayer is enlivening. So then it's really good for people. So yeah, it's a challenge, I think, to minister to the sick and dying. And of course, there's no, say, uniform experience of that. So there are people, I have to say, I mean, A lot of people, at least for me, when I walk in and we're going to go through that ritual, I'm encountering people who are relatively at peace. They're happier for having me there and that kind of thing. I do occasionally have people who are not at peace and it's frightening. I mean, I find it frightening. The possibility of regret without repentance. But it seems to me that as soon as you say, help me, that Jesus is on the spot.

SPEAKER_01:

Father, is it wrong that I have this super strong devotion to Mary and I probably say more prayers to her than I do to Jesus?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I don't... I mean... I'm not your spiritual director, of course, but not yet anyway. Yeah, it's not wrong. I mean, there's no easy categories there to say... If

SPEAKER_01:

I get scared, I say the Hail Mary. If I'm happy, I say the Hail Mary. I mean, I do pray to Jesus, but I'm just saying, like, I just... She's kind of on speed dial for me. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I think... Look, I mean, this is what we're talking about with saints as well, right? Is that we have some comfort with them. And they're... say, easy at hand. I

SPEAKER_01:

call them middle management.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I

SPEAKER_01:

think... She's VP.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

SPEAKER_01:

he's the present CEO. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we have middle management, and then you guys are... Father Daniel calls you guys middle management. I think of you guys as the assistants.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. And you're the saints.

SPEAKER_02:

Who knows?

SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about God-made versus man-made roles. Okay. I feel like... priests getting married or not married is a man-made

SPEAKER_02:

rule.

SPEAKER_01:

Because why can't they get married?

SPEAKER_02:

We have a rich tradition of celibate clergy in the Western church. In the Eastern churches, there tends to be more of the married clergy. But we actually do have married priests also in the Western Church.

SPEAKER_01:

So you can't get married once you've been a priest, but if you're married, you can become a priest and keep your wife.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so in very limited situations. So the scope is pretty narrow on that. You would have to have been a married Protestant minister converting to Catholicism. And then... you might have, should the bishop discern that as well, you might have the opportunity to become a Catholic clergyman. So you would then be a Catholic priest with a wife.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's not a God-made rule. It's a man-made tradition rule.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so hard to say that, though, because I think it's difficult to have that kind of distinction to say what is God-made and what is man-made because we want to live into the will of God. So even if there are what you might see as somewhat changeable rules in the church, like I said, this is... Celibacy is a custom of the church or a discipline. There's not a dogmatic point of reference there.

SPEAKER_01:

Like if you kiss somebody, are you still celibate?

SPEAKER_02:

We ought to be careful with our hearts. I think we're not that careful with our hearts, which is why today I think a whole swath of the population believe that sex is a recreational activity.

SPEAKER_01:

100%. And I think less and less people are getting married.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

I think they said the amount of women that are not going to be married in my daughter's generation, I guess Gen Z, is like exponentially more than my generation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's growing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's kind of sad.

SPEAKER_02:

That's the path we're on, I think. I mean, we're radically individualistic. And the sad thing about it is that a lot of people live with regrets for having followed that path.

SPEAKER_01:

I think we're treating each other as commodities. I was going to say commodities, yeah. Yeah, people are treating each other in the dating world as commodities. The

SPEAKER_02:

worst thing is, and this is what happens I think as a result of idolatry, is that we commodify ourselves. So in fact, I'm a commodity when I venture out into the quote-unquote world through social media, right? So I'm presenting myself in a particular way. And that's a self-commodification, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

And the dating apps. Oh, she's got a cute body. Oh, I don't like her hair or whatever. And then... it's not just on the men it's on the women too well if you

SPEAKER_02:

don't like her hair

SPEAKER_01:

you can't be you can't no but what I'm saying it's not just on the men like I know I'm like villainizing the men right now like by swiping right on all these women or she looks good or she doesn't look good or her rear end looks good or whatever but it's on the women too it's on the women too that like put up with the nonsense too like I think we need to as women like go back to a little bit of our core traditional values

SPEAKER_02:

right right well the tough

SPEAKER_01:

thing is it's a big cycle bad cycle going on

SPEAKER_02:

yeah We are interpersonal beings. So I always like to say something like we're creatures with faces. So we're oriented outside of ourselves, right? But the problem with so much of this activity that has kind of masqueraded as social activity is that it's not outward looking. It's inward looking. And so when you start to destroy relationships, I think you have big problems.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, agree.

SPEAKER_02:

And then you say, you know, we don't have... roots the way i mean i'm this way myself as well there's no blame here but um we don't have roots like we used to have and then actually things like marriage are not what they used to be either so you know we're talking about celibacy before right how that and how that fits into the way society is and the way the church is? And those are really big questions. I think marriage is a similar kind of thing, actually. Now, of course, they're both good and God-given, but marriage used to be really the coming together of two families. If you consider the fact that people wouldn't really journey that far, they wouldn't go that far, they wouldn't travel that far away from where they grew up. So then you're talking about a very different, much more complex relationship, not just between people, but between families. And those systems would all support marriage as the norm. But because we've lost a lot of our roots, I think good marriages perhaps are harder to come by today. They're more difficult to maintain.

SPEAKER_01:

Because, I mean, women are working and they're expected to bring an equal income and then do all the traditional mother-wife duties.

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

mean, I sound probably pretty aggressive, pro-woman, but...

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, I think we should be pro-woman. And I think, I mean, where would we be without the feminine genius? And I think that the world still has a way to go to catch up with what women have to offer. I just think we've put ourselves in difficult positions as it relates to things like the economy, which drives everything for us.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, and we all want more. We all want

SPEAKER_02:

more,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. Life is not so simple like when our grandparents' generation.

SPEAKER_02:

I tend to think that it could be. This is my challenge as a romantic, right? I tend to think that it could be simple. We're not going to go for it at this point.

SPEAKER_01:

What is the hardest part of being a priest?

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. I do think sometimes it's loneliness. And I don't think a lot of guys are going to be willing to say that.

SPEAKER_01:

I would think that, but at the same time, I don't even know how you have time for loneliness because I feel like everyone wants a piece of you. Hey, Father, I have this problem. Hey, Father, I have this, you know? But I think that's very cool that you admitted that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, there's something about... Again, I'm not terribly lonely, and I don't think we really lack for companionship, but I think there's something about creating stories together

SPEAKER_01:

that

SPEAKER_02:

can be a challenge for the priest today.

SPEAKER_01:

How about a best friend?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think that's a challenge.

SPEAKER_01:

Is it? Why?

SPEAKER_02:

There are a number of domains, and of course, I don't have to say doctors and surgeons and whatever. People do this. People have lives of real high demand. And they find ways to also accompany people through life and build and write stories together and that kind of thing. So I don't think it's just the demands, but I do think the kind of drop everything and go kind of thing is quite... It's hard to cultivate relationships of significant depth without at the same time prioritizing the relationship of significant depth. But where is it going to land on the priorities? And I think for a priest to do that and do that well, it's going to be a bit of a challenge.

SPEAKER_01:

I guess you guys are like first responders.

SPEAKER_02:

To some extent. I don't think a ton of our life is going to be like that, but I do think that people have really extraordinary access to us. But that might just be, you know, I'm thinking about it that way because I'm an introvert.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's like, ah, someone's ringing the doorbell.

SPEAKER_01:

Wait, do you think that most... What's going on? Do you think that most priests are... If you had to, like... classify, generalize all priests? Are they extroverts or introverts? Because I feel like you have to be an extrovert to be a priest because you're up there doing homilies. You have to establish this intimacy with people. You're a counselor. You're going to do the last rite. You're doing a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So I would say I think there have been some shifts over the generations. And I think where the priesthood has been held in really high esteem and where you've seen, yeah, like the priest is the leader of the community and he's center stage all the time and that kind of thing. And perhaps he's even something more of an activist in what I would consider the political realm, even if it's not like narrowly political. Like he's campaigning for a better world, right? Like right where he is and he's working to do good things in the public eye. I think that you're likely to find people more extroverts in that kind of mode or modality of priesthood. And I think the priesthood is or has been trending away from that a little bit into the realm of interior life. Priests as spiritual directors, they want to cultivate the life of holiness in others. they're committed to a life of prayer themselves, then I think you're much more likely to find introverts.

SPEAKER_01:

The Jesuits are probably introverts.

SPEAKER_02:

They might

SPEAKER_01:

be. Yeah, it's a

SPEAKER_02:

good question.

SPEAKER_01:

They're so intellectual.

SPEAKER_02:

They're all over the place. This is the way the Jesuits are. I mean,

SPEAKER_01:

I'm a Jesuit educated... The Dominicans too, I think. But you know what? You could ask

SPEAKER_02:

them. I mean, that

SPEAKER_01:

would be a great question for them. I'll ask the Dominicans. I have a lot of Dominican friends.

SPEAKER_02:

Communities usually have some mix of introverts and extroverts, right? And I think, again, that's part of the challenge of the way that the diocesan priesthood or like your kind of, we call it the secular priesthood. So it just kind of means like we're on the front lines. Yeah. The way that the secular priesthood is lived out today is, We're in a tough spot because there's more work than we can handle. You have a lot of people, a lot of priests who, they have two parishes, three parishes, four parishes. They're still supposed to have this intimacy with their

SPEAKER_00:

parishioners. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

And if you're darting around from one to the other, it's just really hard to figure out what the needs of the people are. Even for me, in my situation where I have one parish, but I'm the only priest of that parish. I'm also running a school. I'm also trying to meet the needs of people in other ways. There's more work there than I can handle really.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not until this year that I really began to humanize priests. I think maybe that's a part of adding to loneliness because I went to Catholic school my whole life and it was like, be quiet, the priest is coming. It's not until I got into this business that I ended up realizing They're just like us. Totally different personalities, totally different perspectives on things. And it's like something that I just learned into my 50s, you know? Okay, now, you claimed last night that you were going to break the world record for praying the rosary.

SPEAKER_00:

There's no way, but yeah. But wait.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about the rosary. Are Catholics the only religion that prays the rosary? I think we are.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think... I think so.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So tell me about why we pray the rosary and give me a little history about the rosary. Why those particular prayers in that order? Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's largely tradition at this point. I'm not an expert in the rosary. But I do know that what we used to have with the rosary was three sets of five mysteries covering what we'd say the significant... life events in uh in jesus's life one of the reasons why pope john paul ii comes back and gives us the luminous mysteries which is a fourth set of mysteries is because there were any number of things that are scripturally very significant were not represented in in the mysteries in the original set of 15 mysteries if you put all those hail marys together you've got 150 hail marys and in the psalter so in the book of psalms you have 150 psalms So priests, in the prayer that they pray, say with the church, the prayer of the church, we make our way through the Psalms now, once every four weeks, we're gonna pray every Psalm. So the idea of the Rosary, my understanding of it anyway, the origin and tradition of the Rosary, is to have people have better access So like in the sense of priests are going to pray 150 Psalms, the people can pray 150 Hail Marys.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I see. Okay. I read somewhere, I'm not sure if it's right, that Mary created the rosary. She invented the rosary, as I always tell my kids. I invented this, I invented that. Mary invented the rosary and gave it to St. Dominic's to basically teach the rest of the world how to pray the rosary.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Yeah, I mean, that's what we understand to be the origin story of the rosary.

SPEAKER_01:

What's the biggest lie the devil tells us?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's got to be something like, you're not loved. You're not worthy.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's where a lot of wounds come from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think, I mean, we exist because God loves us into existence, right? The very, we talk about the basic building blocks of life and that kind of thing, what to say, like carbon, carbon-based life form and all this kind of stuff, right? But actually the most basic building block of life is the love of God.

SPEAKER_01:

That's beautiful. When I was at Magigori, one of the visionaries asked when they had a vision of the Virgin, said, you are so beautiful. Like, why are you so beautiful? She said, I am full of love. And I guess the youngest visionary turned to one of the girls and said, something like, you don't have that much love in you. Basically dissing or saying you're not as beautiful.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much, Father, for coming on our podcast and answering all the questions we had for you. And I think other people wanted to know some of the answers to these questions we asked.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we're very happy to have been here with you. So thanks for the opportunity.