Beyond Saint Podcast
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Beyond Saint Podcast
Inside the Vatican: Delia Gallagher's Journey Covering Popes & Faith
Join Delia Gallagher, veteran Vatican correspondent and author, as she shares her unique journey from an Irish-American Catholic upbringing to becoming a leading journalist covering three popes, including John Paul II and Pope Francis. Delia offers deep insights into reporting on the Catholic Church's most challenging moments, including the sex abuse crisis, balancing faith with journalistic integrity. Hear touching stories about Pope John Paul II's charisma, the impact of the sex abuse scandal on the Church, and personal reflections on faith and prayer, including a remarkable story of a pregnancy aligned with a saint’s feast day. This episode reveals the human side of the Vatican and the resilience of faith during times of trial.
We're here in Rome, beyond Saint, with Delia Gallagher, Vaticanologist, author, journalist, correspondent to the Pope, John Paul II. Tell me how
SPEAKER_00:an American girl ends up being a Vatican correspondent. Well, I think, you know, it's like anything in life. I think if you follow what you really love, then you somehow, it ends up working out. working out in terms of a job if you're lucky. I was just always interested in it. I grew up Catholic. My parents are from Ireland, so Irish Catholic. And so I followed that, even not knowing at the time, you know, what are you going to do with it? And there wasn't really a position, at least for the English-speaking press, of a Vatican journalist. The Italians have always had journalists specifically covering the Vatican. In January 2002, Pope John Paul II called over all of the American cardinals for the sex abuse crisis. So actual my career I was already at the Vatican I was working for a small magazine but my career in television journalism with CNN began at that time because obviously everybody in the US was very interested in what was going on over here and and from that time on we more or less kind of continued to have a relationship covering specifically the Vatican but I have to say like anything it's I think providential that you Determine what you really love in life even though you don't know where that's going to take you. And I've been fortunate that it's brought me to Rome and I've loved every minute of it really. I'm on three popes now. This is my third pope with Pope Francis.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I want to get all into the popes,
SPEAKER_00:especially my favorite one. Who's your favorite one?
SPEAKER_01:John Paul II. Oh, yeah. But you said that you were originally called to cover the sex abuse cases.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. How did you balance your journalistic integrity with your faith to make sure it was like... Well, it's not difficult because, of course, as a Catholic, you feel it even more, the scandal of it, I would say. So there was absolutely no question but that... I perhaps was even harder on the church because these are people that I know, these are people that are good and holy men that have failed massively in the worst case, worst way possible. So I think as a Catholic, you don't have that problem because you actually feel it much more personally and you're, if possible, even more outraged than people who are outside of church and I think that that goes for most Catholics I can't speak for everybody but certainly at that time all of us covering those cases you're part of it you know and so in a way it's it's a disaster for everybody of course mostly for the victims and for their families but I can't say that I think everybody was touched by the cases of sexual abuse.
SPEAKER_01:I interviewed a priest, Father Daniel Rehill, and I told him, one of the biggest criticisms I get about our faith is these sexual scandals that have happened.
SPEAKER_00:And he was a victim of inappropriate behavior by a priest, and he ended up becoming a priest himself. I said, how did you not let that affect your whole life, your faith? He
SPEAKER_01:said, I abandoned the faith, I healed, I came back, but he said, Yes, it's a huge deal. It's inexcusable. It's horrible. We have to find ways to deal with it. However, like in other
SPEAKER_00:institutions where sexual abuse occurs, like the public school system,
SPEAKER_01:like
SPEAKER_00:the public school system does not get attacked. It's like the individual, but for some reason it gets, for us, it gets generalized to the whole church. And it's like really less than, I don't know, very single digits.
SPEAKER_01:That kind of helped me put it in perspective. He's like, people still send their kids to public school. You know, there's not a stigma around the public
SPEAKER_00:school system. Yes, although of course part of the severe delusion of people with regard to the Catholic Church and sex abuse is precisely that. Catholic priests should be held to a higher moral standard. It's true. They should be. And so it is something almost worse if we want to put it in those kind of qualitative ways than other types of sexual abuse because they are authority figures and they are religious authority figures. They're supposed to be bringing people to God. So I think understandably there was more outrage. Then of course you can talk about the general biases and things like that when it when it comes to Catholic things in general, and certainly the sex abuse cases were of interest to the media also because of that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so you traveled and
SPEAKER_00:covered John Paul II, my favorite pope. Can you tell me what the day-to-day of that looked like? So I came into his pontificate when he was in the last, let's say, five years. He died in 2005. And I was in Rome since 1998, covering it for a magazine inside the Vatican magazine, which is a wonderful publication. And I learned a lot, you know, kind of just going every day, trying, knocking on doors. We didn't have, you know, internet or email at that time. So it was really a different time. And it was one of those pontificates, I have to say now we have comparisons, right? And really John Paul II, even in those last years, had a star quality. There's no, even up close, especially up close. Really? What you saw on television, he had up close. I mean, I really haven't come across anybody who had that kind of magnetism and that kind of charisma, I have to say. I understand why he's your favorite pope. And as I say, he was already ill when, you know, the last five years we saw the decline with his Parkinson's and his slurred speech and so on. And the problem was that people are always afraid he was going to die. You know, it was like, oh, he's getting worse, he's getting worse. I feel like sometimes... This kind of, you know, right, when you get towards the end of a punter and everybody gets nervous and every kind of cough and everything. And I remember about a year before he died, he was out here in St. Peter's Square. holding his regular audience, and masses of people came. I mean, he was such a figure. You can't even compare it even to Francis. People just came to the Vatican and busloads, and he always had huge crowds. And he's giving a talk, so he has his papers, and he's outside, and the crowds are there, and everybody's clapping. But his speech was already very slurred. I don't know if you remember, and his head was kind of tilted, and he had only one good eye. Of course. And it was hard to understand him sometimes. And we used to watch on the monitor from the Vatican press office, because that was the way to kind of see him up close. And you could go outside and see the crowds, but then you'd go back inside and kind of watch him up close. And so he's talking, and he also had belabored breathing, so he paused at a certain point. And the pause got longer. And the bus got longer, and his head is kind of down like this. And so the crowd starts, you know, John Paul II, we love you, and singing and clapping, you know. And he doesn't pick up his speech. And so I remember the moment in the press office, and we all ran up to the monitor. We're just glued. Everybody's, you know, just glued to this. Pick up the speech, you know. And what's happened? Like, has he had a stroke? Has he, you know. So I'm telling you, it seemed an attorney. I don't know how many minutes it was. And you see his hand kind of go like this. And the crowd is chanting. The crowd gets louder, and they start singing. And John Paul II, we love you. And he still doesn't pick up the speech. And so from behind, you see his private secretary, who is Stanislaw Dziwicz, come up to the pope. And he taps his papers like that. And then he goes back. And then you hear the Pope say, They're telling me to get on with it. That's so funny. Did he fall asleep? No, he was enjoying the crowd. He had taken a breath. He'd taken a breath. The crowd started chanting and singing. And he's going like this with his hand. Oh, like louder and louder. Because he loved it. Oh, I love it. He was that kind of a thing. You know, you have to be a bit extroverted. We saw with Benedict, for example, who's an introvert. You've got to be extroverted to be... Francis? Francis is an extrovert. He gets the energy from the crowds, especially from meeting regular people, let's say. He really enjoys those interactions more than with the diplomats and things like that. Francis is definitely a people's poet. But John Paul II loved everybody. And he took the time with you. And he, you know, so that was his moment, even when we thought, oh gosh, it's all over. And he was totally there. And he was enjoying the moment. He was just enjoying the moment. I love it. You told me a story about the pregnancy with JP, too. Do you feel comfortable saying? Yeah, that's fine. It's a personal story, so I don't want you. No, that's fine. So I got married late. I was 41. And so, you know... in the course of trying to get pregnant, a year went by and I'd had three miscarriages very early on. And I thought, oh, well, you know, my doctor said, well, you know, you're older and, you know, you maybe have to think about doing some other kind of ways of getting pregnant. But again, going back to the Providence thing, I just thought, you know, I'm the kind of person that says it's either going to be this way or it's not for me and I'll accept that. So the doctor said, you know, come back after the summer and if nothing's happened, we'll talk about other possibilities. And I really kind of knew I didn't want to do that. So I said, well, I'd better, you know, say a novena. And the novena is of course the great Catholic prayer for a special intention, right? And you do sort of nine days of a prayer to a saint for an intercession from a saint. So you have your saint business. And the idea of the saints is that they, through them, they can pray and help you on behalf of God. So you ask for their help, basically. So I was thinking to myself, okay, so what saint can I pray to? And I had a rosary that John Paul II had given to me personally, and I thought, well, I'll pray to him, but he wasn't a saint yet. And so, you know, my professional deformation is like, well, no, you have to pray to a saint, otherwise it's not going to work. And I thought, well, who would he pray to? And I thought of Our Lady of Fatima, because Our Lady of Fatima, her feast day is May 13th, and on May 13th, 1981, he had the assassination attempt, and he believes that she She saved his life because it happened on her feast day. And in fact subsequently he went back to give thanks to her in Fatima and put the bullet into her crown in Fatima. It was a beautiful event. So he was very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. So I said, okay, he's not a saint yet but I'm going to use his rosary and I'm going to pray to Our Lady of Fatima for this pregnancy. And keep in mind, I was able to get pregnant. I just wasn't carrying the pregnancies. So I did my Novena. So often it happens with prayer that you do it in a very fervent state and then you kind of forget. You forget about it. So I went, I did get pregnant at the end of August and I went back to the doctor in September. Nice German doctor here in Rome. And the first thing, you'll know this when you go to your doctor and you're pregnant is he has to calculate the expected date of birth so they can see the progression of the pregnancy. So I give him my information, and he does his little calculations, and he says to me, okay, so according to this, the expected date of birth is May 13th. Chills. Chills. I love that story. I just love it. I know. Because I had forgotten about it, and when he said May 13th, I said, the novena. And I knew that that would be the one that's stuck, you know? And that's my daughter, Charlotte, actually. I love it. That's like a miracle. Yeah. I consider it a miracle for myself. I do, too.
SPEAKER_01:That's why I
SPEAKER_00:wanted you to tell everyone that story. Yeah. I love that story. But, you know, the problem is, of course, that for many people, pray... for pregnancies and don't have that, right? So that's why I think it's always important to come back to the idea of what is meant for you in your life, what is providential. I had a wonderful tutor in Oxford, I went to Blackfriars with the Dominicans in Oxford, Herbert McCabe, and he said, talking about prayer, he said, you know, when we pray, God doesn't need our prayers, but God prays through us.
SPEAKER_01:I like
SPEAKER_00:that. So I think the idea there is that Catholics believe that God is creative thought, that God created the world by thinking it. And that you participate in God's thought. we with our minds, you know, we are made in the image and likeness of God. So our minds also participate. That's why the kind of idea of rationality and reason is so important in the Catholic Church. And so by participating in this, if it's in God's thought for me to be pregnant, then that will occur if I'm praying for it and the things are sort of aligned as it were. But that might not be the providence or the thought of God for somebody else. So, you know, I think that it's important to say that. It's not just, well, you pray for things and then they happen. They happen if they're meant for you. Of
SPEAKER_01:course. Then things that you don't expect happen too.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, bad things you mean.
SPEAKER_01:No, bad things and good things. Like I never, I had two biological children of my own and I thought, okay, like this is it. I didn't, you know, they were probably 14 or 15 when I met this young little boy. Something in me said, okay, take him in. Like, I never expected that in my life. And, you know, you probably expect it to have children or other people. And like, maybe there's a different path for those people. You know,
SPEAKER_00:there's always a different path. And then I took this child in and he's been such a blessing. How did you get that idea? Something was in my heart. But you hadn't been thinking about it beforehand, like maybe I would adopt somebody? I had thought about it very casually, but like 10
SPEAKER_01:years prior.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe as I was having my second child. And now like fast forward like 14 years and I'm like, you know what? You can't just keep taking from the universe. You got to give back. And I thought to myself,
SPEAKER_00:like, let me just
SPEAKER_01:do this and... make a difference in the world, you know? So
SPEAKER_00:life has its... But yeah, but see, there's something beautiful there because it's also about the connections with other people. I mean, we don't live on our own. And so the whole idea of community and what is in my... providential stream kind of comes forth with other peoples. And I think that's really at the heart of it, right, is this relational aspect of all of us. And again, that's a big thing also in the Catholic Church. That's why they say God is a trinity, because God is also relational. And so we are also relational. Yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, thank you. But I want to ask you, any other personal stories about the other popes?
SPEAKER_00:I had a great time with Benedict XVI because he was here as Cardinal under John Paul II. He was here for 26 years. Everybody knew him. I forgot that. Yes. I mean, Cardinal Ratzinger is one of the major theologians for the Catholic Church in the 20th century. There's just no two ways about it. And if you are interested in any way in the Catholic Church, his writings are the thing to go to because he really has a wonderful way of explaining things and And thinking and not shying away from difficult questions. So any kind of question that you have about, you know, well, why is there evil? Or did Jesus really resurrect? And all of those questions, he just answers them straight on in a beautiful and easy to understand way. You know, it takes time to get into it and think about it. Where
SPEAKER_01:can people find that?
SPEAKER_00:He's written loads of things, but I would start with a book called Introduction to Christianity, which he wrote actually as a professor in the 60s. And it's all in there. It's all in there. Cardinal Ratzinger and then Pope Benedict. So I would definitely look to him as somebody who can kind of explain things in a great way. And the interesting thing I find with Francis is where Benedict brings out this kind of intellectual side of the Catholic Church. And Francis obviously is really the heart. I feel like he's the heart. Yeah, he's the heart. And he's the one that's kind of always reminding us, and especially for this year, which is the Jubilee. year, you know, to remember to reach out to other people, to do good acts and works of mercy for other people. And I would say that's really the cornerstone of his message is kind of bringing down the Gospels and all of the teaching of the Catholic Church, which I think is beautifully explicated by Pope Benedict. And then you have Pope Francis, who gets to the kind of nitty gritty practical stuff like go and visit the sick. Prisoners, he loves to go and visit prisons. He did that for the opening of this Jubilee in December. He thinks it's very important, obviously, to not forget those who are marginalized, including migrants and so on. So all of those things that we all know about Pope Francis really stem from that idea of the Catholic idea of being there for your neighbor, the relational idea again.
SPEAKER_01:That's one thing I really like about Pope Francis. He's really progressed progressive, which people could love or hate, but I will say whether
SPEAKER_00:you like him or not like him, he really walks the walk. Yeah, and he knows what regular people do and think. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. And so, for example, for this Jubilee year, one of the things that he has suggested, so the Jubilee year is a year in the church that happens basically every 25 years, right? There can be other years called by post, but the traditional one is every 25 years. And it's basically an invitation to, to deepen your spiritual life. And one of the ways you do that is going on pilgrimage. So you can come to Rome, you can go through the holy doors at St. Peter's and at some of the other basilicas, and you deepen your prayer life. Let's talk about the holy doors. I thought there was only one holy door, but there are several. Talk about the holy doors a little bit. Well, I mean, a holy door obviously is a great symbol. The main ones are at St. Peter's. They're beautiful. They have these different panels on them. Those are like the image that you see everywhere exactly the jubilee and they're only opened during jubilee years so if you go inside the basilica on a during a regular year you'll see there's a big concrete wall behind the holy door that has to be yeah behind ins from the inside of the basilica it's shut off and it has to be it's it's concrete so it has to be knocked down for the opening and then you see the pope will push it from the outside and then it goes and opens which he did at the end of december So the idea is obviously very symbolic, right? It's about the threshold. It's about going from the outside to the inside, going into a different way of life, a different space. And ultimately, of course, it's about the ultimate threshold, which is death and the hope that there is death. another life, which is the main Christian belief. So it's a hugely symbolic thing. And there are holy doors at the four basilicas here that you can go and visit.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know
SPEAKER_00:all four
SPEAKER_01:of
SPEAKER_00:them? Yes. Okay. The names of them, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So there's St. Peter's, there's St. Paul outside the walls where St. Paul is buried, St. Mary Major, and St. John Lateran. Those are called the four basilicas of Rome. Okay. So those are the four main places for pilgrimage for this year, and you can walk through this special set of doors there. But you don't have to come to Rome to do a pilgrimage. You can still do a pilgrimage during a whole even if you don't come to Rome. You can go to your own cathedral, you can go to a shrine, you can go to a lot of places. And they all have the doors? They do not all have the doors. Okay. So the doors have to be specified by the pope. So, for example, the pope in 2015 had a special jubilee year for mercy. And that year we went to the Central African Republic, which is a country which at the time had literally no government. It was in war. There was no real authority there. And the Pope decided that was going to be the place he wanted to go. And he, in the capital there, Bangui, he instituted holy doors. And so he can decide in different places where he wants to put the holy doors. doors but the point is not really about the doors it's it's a wonderful symbolic gesture for people who can make the pilgrimage to Rome but it doesn't need to be about that it's about your interior disposition to make a pilgrimage to deepen your journey to do something which will show that you are dedicated to your spiritual life. And there are a couple of things that go along with the pilgrimage, which is confession. I was just going to ask, I think you have a week after you walk through. Yeah, it's Catholic. You can be kind of, you know, you can extend it. You should do it within a certain time frame. I think even 20 days, they say. Oh, really? It's kind
SPEAKER_01:of
SPEAKER_00:like taking a communion. 30 minutes, hour before you eat. Not to eat, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of like a little bit soft. Well, exactly. I mean, look, these are the kind of norms and then you do your best to work within them. But obviously the point is to, it's for your soul. right right so it's a purification of your soul and therefore confession is necessary communion is necessary and praying for the intentions of the holy father so whether you're not you actually walk through the doors if you do those three things and you have the intention of
SPEAKER_01:name them again the three things
SPEAKER_00:so confession Holy Communion and praying for the intentions of the Holy Father. And those are what you need to do to participate in this pilgrimage. That's really important, I think, that you gave those three intentions. Yeah. Because I think it helps people process it better. Yeah. And I think, again, it's something, it's year-long, so you can kind of decide in parishes if people are Catholic and go to a parish, they will have already something set up in terms of either a pilgrimage abroad here to Rome or something maybe within your parish, or you can do it in your own home. You don't actually have to move. If people are housebound or something, it's about your intention to participate in this. So then Francis, getting back to the practical guy, says, well, you can also do some acts of charity and mercy. So you can go and visit the sick. You can go and visit prisoners. You can donate money. You can abstain from futile distractions. Like social media. Like social media. You don't have to do it the whole time, but maybe one day a week, you know? So you're offering up something because, of course... It's a way of fasting. Sacrifice has to be involved in some way. Otherwise, there's not a whole point. If you think about purifying your body, like how often do we do all those kind of things to purify our bodies? Well, there's some sacrifice involved in that, right? Sure. And it's... It's the same kind of idea that you want to purify your soul because, of course, you're going to eventually walk through the ultimate threshold, the ultimate door, which is your death.
SPEAKER_01:That
SPEAKER_00:was amazing. Thank you. Delia,
SPEAKER_01:what are some pressing
SPEAKER_00:issues
SPEAKER_01:do you think that's facing the Catholic Church?
SPEAKER_00:The idea of holiness, and it sounds kind of strange to say that because it's not about all of the practical issues that we often talk about, like the bureaucracy or sex abuse, which continues, unfortunately, to pop up several cases here and there and need to be quickly and efficiently dealt with. And still, sometimes that doesn't happen. There are lots of practical things about about the Catholic Church that as an institution will always be there and will need to be, you know, sorted out as it were. I mean, there are people about questions of women being in positions of authority, things like that that are what I would call practical issues. But actually, I think the larger point is the question of spirituality and holiness and allowing people a space and a ritual and some kind of reason for their hope and to bring them into that world, as it were. I feel like that's what is really needed. And the Catholic Church would call that evangelization, so letting people know What is it that Catholics do? What is it all about? Why do we do it? And so on. And I think that's really the most important thing. And then I think the other kind of bureaucratic things or organizational things are kind of common to a lot of organizations and, yes, are important. But, again, it's more about your... offering, which the Catholic Church has a lot to offer in terms of your prayer life and questions about God and things like that. Now I'm going to ask you just a couple of like fun questions. How do you split your time? Those were fun questions too, by the way.
SPEAKER_01:How do you split your time? Do you live mostly in Rome? Do you ever go back? I mean, I
SPEAKER_00:know you go back. I was just back in Los Angeles. Can you believe it? Horrible. My brother lives in Brentwood. I know. His house was spared, but we were just there. I had to evacuate. You did.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I was very, very lucky. My house did not burn down,
SPEAKER_00:but you're mostly here. Mostly here. I'm married to an Italian. I have two children that go to Italian schools. They're little Romans. And so, yeah, my life is here. I mean, we're really fortunate. We have a house in the country, and so we can go away on the weekends. But, you know, the work situation with the Pope and the Vatican is kind of all-consuming, right? Right. So really, it's just—and I love it. I love it here. So I don't—I get back to California, you know, once a year, maybe Thanksgiving or Christmas. depending. But otherwise, yeah, I'm very Italy based, unless the Pope travels.
SPEAKER_01:What's the best part of living in Rome?
SPEAKER_00:You know, the best part is the rhythm of life. It's the rhythm of life, which is There's a great Italian phrase. It's like, appasso dell'uomo. It goes along with how we are as humans, which is we don't need to be rushing all the time. It's kind of a joke where if you tell an Italian the appointment is at 11. Oh, yeah. I learned that the hard way. It's kind of elastic. But the point is that, and this happens all the time with my husband because I'm still American. If you tell me 11, I'm there at 5 to 11 and I ring at 11. There's nothing like American
SPEAKER_01:customer service. I will
SPEAKER_00:say that. Well, that goes along with it. We're efficient people. And so the idea of wasting time or wasting someone else's time, but Italians don't consider it wasting. It's not wasted because if on my way here, I run into somebody, I don't say, oh, sorry, I got to go. I'm late. You know, it's like they stop. You might even have a coffee with them, you know, because the other, it's okay. I mean, so it's living the moment. I can't adjust to that still. I know. I've been here 25 years. I still kind of, you know. I have a funny story. It was a coin and I'm like, I'd like to try on these boots, please. They're like, okay. I'm like, okay, five minutes. I was returning emails, calls. I'm like, It's been 20 minutes. Can I try these boots on, please? I'm like, I had to go get the manager, and they're like, okay, calm down, you crazy American. I know. That's what it is. But I'm like, I'm getting used to it, you know? I know. I have so many funny stories about time and Italians. Is there anything that you miss from the United States? I miss that energy, that positive energy of people doing a lot of wonderful things. Or people being very excited about what you're doing and interested in that. So, you know, Rome in particular, because of course Italy is slightly different from north to south. I know, it's all different countries here. Milan has a different kind of work. Rome is much easier paced. It's like the south. Yeah, so I think on balance I love that as much as it tends to sometimes get a little swampy because then it's kind of hard to get your stuff done because it can all wait. I compare Milan to New York and Rome to L.A., In a way, if you can. Well, I'm a San Francisco girl, so L.A., I don't really know, but I think the vibe in L.A. is pretty much let's get it done. It's more laid back than New York. It's more laid back, but it's still compared to Rome. 100%. It's still like, yeah. It's about getting the meetings done and what are you doing next. The funny thing is, Italians don't really ask you, what are you doing? What projects are you working on? It's just like, how are you? I know. What are you doing? But not your work. That's not the first thing. I
SPEAKER_01:know, it's
SPEAKER_00:weird. But that's great. But we could learn from that as Americans, right? 100%. That's where
SPEAKER_01:the term La Dolce Vita
SPEAKER_00:or whatever. Yeah, that's what it is. La Dolce Parnente or all those sayings come from. And it's true. very important what you're eating. Obviously. Meals have to be decided. By the way, I do that in LA. That's why I think I fit in so well here. I think about the food I'm eating. I will say, this is so funny, but the best Chinese food I had was in Rome. Really? You have to tell me where. It's delicious. It's between Piazza di Spagna and Piazza del Popolo. But the food in Italy, I mean, anywhere I travel, I'll say... They'll be like, did you like Greece? I was like, yeah, it was amazing. But it's not Italy. You love Italy. I love Italy. Who doesn't? Yeah. I love it. But OK, so who's your favorite saint and why? Oh, my goodness. Let's see. I kind of have a lot. I don't want to say a favorite. Three, top three. Should I say Catherine of Siena? She's a patron saint of journalists and I think a wonderful woman. And Italy, one of the patron saints of Italy, I think. Yeah. I like the strong women saints because I think when people say, you know, women in the Catholic Church, we are thinking of kind of modern times and who's working at the Vatican, but really women in the history of the Catholic Church have been amazing women. And I've been fortunate also to have been taught by wonderful nuns and women. So I appreciate women saints a lot. I love Padre Pio. Another Italian saint. I think he's... He's somebody also that you like, and he's a big saint here in Italy. I'm going to
SPEAKER_01:go visit his shrine
SPEAKER_00:next week. Yeah, you know, he's just such an interesting kind of life. So I would say that. And then, of course, I'll have to say, you know, St. John Paul II. You've got to give your boys some props here. St. Mother Teresa? St. Mother Teresa? Yeah, she's been a really important figure, I think, also because of her... many, many years of doubt and darkness that came out when she was going to be beatified. It came out that she had suffered so many years of real doubt and real torment. I didn't know that. Yes, I know. People don't realize that. She was this smiling nun and this go-getter. But actually, for several decades with her spiritual director and in her writings, it was all kept secret until she was beatified, she suffered great, great doubts. And I love that because it's so human. It's so human. And it's also something which connects us to people who don't believe because it's like, well, you probably doubt sometimes too, whether it's good to believe or it's right to believe or there's something to believe. So I love that there's that connection. that human, that humanness of, you know, sometimes you say, hmm. Yeah. Thank you, Delia, so
SPEAKER_01:much. I was, like, so intimidated interviewing you. I was like, God, what am I doing this lady for? Oh, thanks
SPEAKER_00:for having me. Because you're such a wealth of knowledge and you're such a pro. She's probably thinking, why is this stooge interviewing me? No, I love it. I love what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you. Good for you. I mean, honestly, it's such a blessing to have people like you that bring this kind of new light and life to the Catholic Church. I think that's wonderful. You do a great job.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
UNKNOWN:you