Beyond Saint Podcast

How the Vatican Handles the Death of a Pope and the Conclave Process

Ira DeWitt Season 2 Episode 6

Discover the intricate and solemn procedures that unfold when a pope dies, from the announcement by the dean of cardinals to the mourning bells of Rome. Italian Vatican analyst Andrea Gagliarducci explains the sede vacante period, the sealing of the pope’s apartments, and the role of the Camerlengo in managing church affairs. Learn how the body of the pope is honored through ancient rites at multiple stations, culminating in a funeral led by the dean. We also explore the criteria for becoming pope, the significance of the Fisherman’s Ring, and the detailed preparations for electing the new pontiff by the College of Cardinals. This episode offers a unique, inside look at the Vatican’s time-honored traditions from death to the election of the next pope.

SPEAKER_01:

Why could an American not be the Pope? It's never in the running.

SPEAKER_00:

In this moment, because... I saw

SPEAKER_01:

the face you made, you went, in this moment?

SPEAKER_00:

To be... A pope, you need a series of characters. You need to be very widely known at international level. You need to know the Roman Curia very well, or at least to be able to handle with that. You need to be well known. So Americans, easily they don't speak other languages. That's not true. Easily. I have

SPEAKER_01:

lots of American priest friends here that speak multiple languages.

SPEAKER_00:

But how many cardinals? That's the point.

SPEAKER_01:

Does Dolan speak Italian?

SPEAKER_00:

Dolan speaks some Italian.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Some Italian. Not perfect, but some Italian. But I

SPEAKER_01:

feel like there's something more behind an American now becoming a pope. We're here today in Rome with Beyond Saint. And we have Andrea Gagliarducci. Did I say that right? Yeah. Okay, journalist. Italian journalist. Italian journalist. And... What would you call your specialty, I guess? Do we have a name we

SPEAKER_00:

would call it? In Italy, we call it Vaticanista, which is a very specific name for people who cover all the Vatican and Vatican reporting. In English, I do say Vatican analyst. That is quite similar, although not perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

Or Vaticanologist.

SPEAKER_00:

Vaticanologist is similar, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I think with everything going on, people want to understand What happens when a pope dies? Walk me through the step of when a pope dies to when we get to the conclave, and then we can explain the conclave after that.

SPEAKER_00:

So when the pope dies, there are a series of procedures that start the so-called sede vacante, the vacant seat. You know, when the pope dies, there is no seat because the pope is not there. Let me

SPEAKER_01:

ask you. Sede vacante means vacant

SPEAKER_00:

seat. Vacant seat, yes. It means that the pope is no longer there. There is no... there is not a Vice Pope in the Catholic Church. Which means- That's interesting. There is not. So if there is not a Pope, it's impossible that somebody takes the comment. So the comment is taken by the College of Cardinals, all the Cardinals together. And that's why they meet together in so-called congregations, since the beginning. since the beginning. So the first thing is the Annunciation of the Death of the Pope, which has to be done in a very specific way. There must be the dean of cardinals. The dean of the College of Cardinals is the sort of primus, the first among the others of the cardinals, is elected by cardinals. And this cardinal is the dean. He delivers the communication to all the foreign countries because the Pope is ahead of state.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, got it. So the dean of the cardinals kind of takes on the role of the announcements of the Vatican.

SPEAKER_00:

Of the Vatican, yes. While the vicar for the Diocese of Rome, because the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, he takes the role of informing all the Roman parishes. And then the bell of St. Peter starts mourning, sound mourning, and all the bells in Rome should sound mourning and say that the Pope is dead.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, the bells are mourning.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Got it.

SPEAKER_00:

Then, after that, after the announcement, there is the recognition of the death. How is the recognition of the death?

SPEAKER_01:

Recognition of the death.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So the Pope is called in his baptismal name. No longer.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so Borgoglio.

SPEAKER_00:

Borgoglio.

SPEAKER_01:

Jorge.

SPEAKER_00:

Jorge. Why? Because the Pope is no longer there.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, interesting. So when he dies, we don't call him Papa Francesco. We call it

SPEAKER_00:

Jorge. The Rite calls him Jorge. The ancient Rite used to say, Jorge, do you sleep? Three times. And after three times, there was a small hammer. And they used to hammer the Pope to check if he was having a reaction.

SPEAKER_01:

That's

SPEAKER_00:

interesting. And in that case, they said, Very Papa Mortu says, the Pope is really dead. And in that moment, there was the annunciation of the vacancy. When the vacancy is announced, is proselymed, because the Pope is dead, you do a series of things. First of all, you seal all the apartments of the Pope. Because nobody can enter the Pope's apartment until the next Pope comes. Really? In this case, since Pope Francis used to live in Santa Marta, not just in the Apostolic Palace, they also sealed the suite in Santa Marta where he used to live. Because nobody can enter. Then you know that when there is the installation mass of the Pope, they give him the so-called fisherman ring. It's a ring with... They

SPEAKER_01:

give who the fisherman ring?

SPEAKER_00:

The Pope. The Pope is given a fisherman ring. The fisherman ring is the ring through which the Pope actually stamps the balls of the documents. All the documents are stamped with that. So when the Pope dies, the fisherman ring is annulled. So they do a sort of, you know, a cross or something that nobody can use it anymore because there is no pope. So no papal document can be issued. And so there will be a new fisherman ring with a new icon. Every pope chooses one. Mostly it's the fisherman, but in different

SPEAKER_01:

forms,

SPEAKER_00:

designs. And there will be a new one, but that one will no longer be used because the pope is dead. The pope is dead.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And since the very beginning, as I said, since there is not a vice-pope, there are general congregations, which means all the cardinals that are in that moment in Rome, they meet together and they start making the decisions. The decisions cannot be game-changing decisions. They just can be ordinary decisions. Just getting through this time.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The Camerlengo, there is one cardinal that is called the Camerlengo, the Camerlengo presides the vacancy, the sede vacante, but mostly is in charge with the so-called temporal goods, which means that he approves the preventive, he approves the balance sheets, because obviously all of this thing has a cost. It's very pragmatic. But the Camerlengo is just in charge of the administration.

SPEAKER_01:

While

SPEAKER_00:

the cardinals all together, they make the decisions. So they meet all together. And in the meantime, cardinals get to come to Rome from all over the world.

SPEAKER_01:

How many cardinals are here from

SPEAKER_00:

Rome? Now there are 220. It's

SPEAKER_01:

a lot.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a lot. Just 135 are eligible to vote in a conclave because you can vote in a conclave until you're 80. When you pass the 80, you cannot vote anymore. In this case, there will be 133 cardinals because two are the ones that can actually vote. have to drop the possibility because of health reasons. They cannot travel, they cannot come through. Got it.

SPEAKER_01:

So only 135 are eligible to vote for this?

SPEAKER_00:

For this conclave, and only 133 will actually vote.

SPEAKER_01:

Got it.

SPEAKER_00:

So they start coming, and as long as they come, they join the general congregations. In the first general congregations, that are the meetings, they set the date for the funeral.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So they used to have a date between three and five days after the death of You need time for cardinals from all over the world to come. For example, the cardinal that resides in Budapest can get to Rome very easily. But the cardinal that resides in Tunga gets a little longer journey. So between three and five days, it depends on how many cardinals are there, how many cardinals, they announce they're coming, so everybody knows the schedule when they're coming. So they make a decision that can be fit for everyone. And then there is the funeral of the Pope. Before the funeral of the Pope, there are other three passages. The body of the Pope is brought in three so-called stations, three places.

SPEAKER_01:

The body of the Pope is in three stations.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it goes in three stations. First step is when he's displayed as a body, in the coffin in this case, because Pope Francis was in the coffin, but before he used to be in a deathbed. Sure. Before in the chapel, where he used to live. In this case, Santa Marta Chapel, in the other case was the Chapel of the Apostolic Palace. so that everybody from inside the Vatican could go and pay the homage. Then there is the passage in the Apostolic Palace, which took place this time, but very quickly. And then there is the third station that is the exposition of the body in St. Peter's Basilica.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_00:

the body is exposed to veneration of the faithful. It's a very ancient rite, and it has two main reasons. The first reason is that you need to ascertain that the Pope is dead. Everybody has to know that the seed is peccant.

SPEAKER_01:

After the hammer?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, nobody knows the hammer because... Yeah, they haven't seen it for themselves. Everybody needs to know. And second, because the death of the Pope is always being considered a sort of a catechetical moment for the people of God. Sure. Which means that you have to show the Christian death. You have to show how the Pope has died, that the Pope is just a transitional task. So that's why it's exposed, and that's why people go, it's not paying a veneration, it's not a homage to a head of state. It's something different. Anciently, there was a first exposition where people could also kiss the feet of the dead

SPEAKER_02:

Pope.

SPEAKER_00:

Now these things have changed, but I'm just giving you the general background. After these three days of exposition, there is the funeral. The funeral is in St. Peter's Square. And it's the Dean of the College of Cardinals that always presides over the funeral. And after the funeral, the Pope's body is brought to the tomb. in this case, St. Mary the Major with Pope Francis. But generally it's in the Vatican grottoes. But it depends because Pope Francis is not the first pope to be buried there. We have also 30 popes that have not been buried. Borghese. Borghese. Well, there are, you know, in St. Mary the Major we have five. In St. John the Lateran we have nine popes. So there are 30 of them are not even in Rome. Some of them are buried around.

SPEAKER_01:

And he wanted to be married at Santa Maria Maggiore because that was his favorite church?

SPEAKER_00:

Many reasons. He's a Gentile. Jesuit, and Saint Mary Maggiore is the church where Saint Ignatius of Loyola celebrated his first Mass. So there is the Jesuitical reason of that. Then, secondly, it was very devoted to the icon of Maria Salus Populi Romani, that according to the legend was actually sketched by Saint Luke. So very ancient. Although not as ancient as it should be. you should think, but still, you know, it was very out of that, and that's why I used to go there very often as a Jesuit, Pope, and that's why I wanted to be buried there. The funeral of the Pope starts the so-called time period of the Novenials. Novenials, what are Novenials? Novenials are nine days of mourning. Which means-

SPEAKER_01:

Like a Novena.

SPEAKER_00:

Like a Novena, but it's nine days, like from the day of the funeral, there are nine masses of mourning. So the funeral, then first day, third day, fourth day, and so on. Every of these masses is for a specific portion of the people of God and the specific task of the Pope. So there are two masses that are for the so-called Pontifical Chapel, which means all the people who actually celebrates with the Pope, the mass. When the pope is there, there is the so-called papal chapel. All the cardinals that live here, the monsignors, the members of the chapters. But there is also one for the Vatican City State Administration, because the pope is the king of Vatican City State Administration. There is one for the Eastern churches, because the pope is the primate of the Eastern churches. There is one for the religious people, because the pope is the primate of religious people. So it's very symbolic. All the schedule of these nine masses is very symbolic, and it tells all the nuances of the pope's figure. In the meantime, cardinals keep meeting, and they start making decisions, and they also start a general discussion about the future of the church. In the general congregations, all the cardinals meet, all of them. Those one eligible to vote in the conclave, and the ones that were not eligible to vote in the conclave. Then, after the Novengels, during these meetings, they set a date for the beginning of the conclave, which should be between 10 and 15 days after the death.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_00:

very quick in the end, if you think about that. So the Saturday 8th, in this case it's May the 7th. And then in May the 7th, in the morning, they have the so-called Mass Proligendo Romani Pontifici for the election of the Roman pontiff. So all the cardinals gather there. And then in the afternoon, they go up to the Apostolic Palace. There is a chapel, it's called Cappella Paulina. They gather over there. This chapel is very ancient. It's at the end of the stairs going up to the Sistine Chapel. So they gather there. And then they start, the Polychapel is here. The Sistine Chapel is here. So it's just like three minutes walk. Like that. From one

SPEAKER_01:

chapel to the Sistine

SPEAKER_00:

Chapel. Yeah, not very much. So all together, they gather in procession.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And they go singing the Veni Creator toward the Sistine Chapel.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

And then all together in the Sistine Chapel, one by one, they go as wearing as members of the Conclave. So there is a public swearing in.

SPEAKER_01:

Public swearing in.

SPEAKER_00:

Any of

SPEAKER_01:

this televised?

SPEAKER_00:

This is televised. This will be televised. Then after the swearing in, there is the extra omnes. Everybody out. So the master of papal ceremony say extra omnes. So everybody who's not entitled to be at the conclave will get out. And then... No reporters, no

SPEAKER_01:

judges, nothing.

SPEAKER_00:

Nobody. Not even the cardinals who are not eligible to vote. All of them out.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Just one cardinal stays, and it's the cardinal who's giving them the meditation. Got it. There will be a meditation before the first vote, the first poll. So everybody's out. They close the door, and then we see nothing else. That's over. Then, you know, they start the procedure for the votes inside. So after the meditation... Also, the cardinal who delivered the meditation, that is generally an ancient cardinal, so not eligible to vote, in this case Cardinal Cantalamessa, he will be out as well. And then let's start the first poll. The polls are very interesting. So, the cardinals are in three lines. The Sistine Chapel is actually up-leveled, so you will not get the floor. You don't get to touch the floor. You

SPEAKER_01:

don't get to touch the floor

SPEAKER_00:

where you're sitting? No, because there is a wooden thing, and they put scaffolding so that people, that cardinals can sit. And they're

SPEAKER_01:

floating, kind of?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, something like that. Not floating, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, not floating, but their feet are above the floor. Are

SPEAKER_00:

above the floor. It's just like when you put a parquet, you have the actual floor.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, got

SPEAKER_00:

it. Okay? So they have this desk, and all of them, they sit. And then they have this paper, it's a white paper, where there is just a line that say, Illigo in Sumum Pontificiam, I elect as Roman pontiff. And they can put any name they want. And then they, you know, everybody's called. They put the name, they fold it. Then they have to put it like this, just to show that nobody touched it. And then they have to walk. toward the central desk where there is the dean of the conclave, which is not the same dean as the College of Cardinals because the dean is more than 80, so he's not gonna enter in the conclave. So he goes in the desk and there are three cardinals that oversee every day the operations of vote. And so, is we're seeing that whatever he did is done under the Holy Spirit. And that he's writing the name that he considers fit in his heart and his views. And then he gets back. This happens for every cardinal. So for every single vote, there is a procession. From one cardinal and then back, processional. Because- It's very

SPEAKER_01:

ritualistic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because it has to keep, the uh the prayer you know the conclave is not an election the conclave is a right

SPEAKER_01:

oh

SPEAKER_00:

that ends with an election but it's right

SPEAKER_01:

it's a right

SPEAKER_00:

that's the first thing you have to remember and i didn't

SPEAKER_01:

realize that it's something i learned and i i learned today

SPEAKER_00:

that's very interesting because that's why you have so much prayer that's why you swear so many times because that helps the cardinals to feel the responsibility if if they start thinking without praying they can start thinking as an election. So they can start having also agreements. I just learned

SPEAKER_01:

that today. The conclave is a right, not an election.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it has, you know, it's ritual. So you have four polls per day. The first day is one poll because it's in the evening. Then you have four polls per day. So one in mid-morning, one at midday, one in mid-afternoon, and one at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And... Every morning, when they go into the Sistine Chapel, since they're staying in Santa Marta, they are brought by bus, special transport. And then they go there, and then they vote, and then all the votes are read, and then they're put in a sort of line or something like that, and then they're barred. They burn them. Yeah. After they read the votes, if they don't get to an election, or even if they get to an election, they burn them. In case the election is reached, you have the white smoke from the chimneys. In case not, you have the black smoke. You have just two smokes per day. Only in case the Pope is elected in the mid-morning or mid-afternoon, you can have another smoke. Smoke in the midday. Generally, it's two smokes. So that's pretty much that. After the election, when the Pope is elected, the dean of the College of Cardinals has to go to the Pope elected. The elected Pope has to accept.

SPEAKER_01:

I was just going to ask, has anyone declined?

SPEAKER_00:

We don't know. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

that's okay. That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

He has to accept. Do you

SPEAKER_01:

know? Have you ever heard of anybody declining?

SPEAKER_00:

Not recently. So I don't know. Okay. Not recently.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

He has to accept and he pronounces his name. as Pope. So he says, I choose this name as a Pope.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you change your name?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Every time. Then after that, they brought to a so-called room of the drops. Let

SPEAKER_01:

me ask you a question. A lot of priests already come in changing their name, right? Because Papa Francesco was not Papa Francesco. He was Jorge.

SPEAKER_00:

Mario Bergoglio, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Mario Bergoglio. So then you change your name again?

SPEAKER_00:

If they change their name as religious, then they change. Jorge Mario Bergoglio was his name. It was his birth name. His birth name. But a

SPEAKER_01:

lot of like, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, they changed the name again.

SPEAKER_01:

Again, twice. Yeah. Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it's not their name as religious, it's the name as Pope. So you enter a new condition.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, got it. Okay, I'm just asking, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the point. You know, it's not another, when you become a bishop, you're ordained bishop. So it's like a second ordination after priest.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I have a friend, he was not born Philip Neri, but he's a Dominican, his name is Philip Neri. I'm sure he changed it to Philip Neri. And now, let's say he became pope, he changed it again.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a lot of names to remember. A

SPEAKER_00:

lot, yeah, if he wants to. Otherwise, he can remember just the important ones. And then after that, he's sent to the room of the drops, you know. Well, drops because it was said that the pope selected tried in front of their responsibility, you know. And there are three cassocks already prepared. A small one, medium one, large one. So he wears for the first time the purple robes. And then he goes, and then the cardinal protocol goes out of the balcony and announces to the people of God that the Pope has been elected. And then after that, the Pope comes out dressed with white. It's

SPEAKER_01:

like a big celebration here in Rome. It's like people go

SPEAKER_00:

crazy. Yeah, yeah. They go crazy because, you know, Rome has always been very much connected with the Popes. Sure. If you check on YouTube, and that's a very fun exercise you can do, there is footage about all the announcements to the Pope since 1939. So you can see Pius XII to be announced. And you can see the crowd. The crowd before the Second World War was three times what we have now. Because at that time, there were not even the corridors, the emergency corridors. Now we have a series of emergency corridors and security issues that actually shrink the square somehow. But before there were not. So people just gathered in the square and it was like that. It was huge. It was huge. And I mean, this Pope, Pope Francis somehow broke is connection with the city of Rome. Because he didn't live in the Apostolic Palace. And not living in the Apostolic Palace for Roman citizen is a huge breach. Why? Because people from Rome liked to go in the square, just wandering, and check if the Pope was awakened.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

So because the light was up. And you could see the light. And you could see when the Pope was sleeping or if the Pope was there. What do you

SPEAKER_01:

think about that? That he chose to not be in the Well,

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't like it for starters, but I didn't like it because it's something that connects you very much with the people.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

This

SPEAKER_01:

pope was a contrarian. He definitely was kind of like St. Francis. He wanted to live a life of poverty, so he didn't want to be at the papal palace and he wanted to be...

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, with the exception that the papal palace is not for rich. It's an apartment. It's good. It's very dignified. But the issue is that he didn't want to live in a place where he felt alone. And in a hotel, he never felt alone because there were people around all the time. He doesn't have a family. That's the point. Generally, there is a pontifical family that lives with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

For example, Benedict XVI had four consecrated women that lived with him and his secretary. So he had a sort of family. And the same John Paul II. John Paul II had his secretary, Cardinal Givish, and then the other secretary. And then John Paul II liked to host people for dinners and meals. He never ate alone, never in life. So he always had some people for lunch or for dinner. So he didn't feel alone. But Pope Francis never had this kind of thing. I wonder

SPEAKER_01:

why.

SPEAKER_00:

It's his choice. I don't know here. He's a loner. He's a loner, yeah. So he decided to do that. And since he's not, not even, he's Argentinian, not even European, he doesn't get this kind of connection because in Argentina it's different. This kind of connection is something you very much perceive in Rome because Rome has always been pepally. But you very much perceive in, when you are European because in Europe you have this thing that, you know, the, bishops were also princes somehow, so they had this connection with the people. So in this case, we lost the connection. So even when he died, we didn't have the huge procession of people that went to accompany John Paul II's agony in the square, but they were in the square because they knew that John Paul II was in that window. So there was this connection that we lost with this papacy.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you want, Andrea, to go back to the tradition? Yeah. Okay, you do. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I would love that, yeah. Well, I think the Apostolic Palace is more pragmatic for many reasons. First, secondly, it's nice for people to see the Pope. Third, it's not a lack of privacy. Fourth, it's not luxury. And it's very pragmatic for the Pope because he lives here and all his activities are here. Sure, yes. So I would love that,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. I was told that he appointed, Pope Francis appointed... cardinals that were very like-minded like him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How do you think that will affect the next election?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think it will affect the election that much, and I will tell you why. Generally, you know, all the popes create cardinals that are like-minded, you know, it's normal. You appoint people you like and you feel fit with. But the issue is that when the pope dies, the pope is dead.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_00:

you have 133 old people that are secluded in a place and they're discussing about the challenges they're expecting and whatsoever. The point is that as long as they talk, they can change their mind very quickly. Things can happen very, very easily. You know, you do a bad joke at lunch and you lose 40 votes. I wouldn't last a minute. Yeah, well, that's the point. So I don't think it's going to affect that because it affects very much... It affects very much the discussions before. But once you get in, everything changes. It's a different environment. You know, cardinals are totally forbidden from having any kind of connection with the external world. During this time. During the conclave.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So the windows are shut down. The windows are sealed in their rooms. They cannot even look out of the window.

SPEAKER_01:

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

They have to give all the laptops, all the phones. Phones! Everything. No connection. And the Vatican City State is shielded. Because no interference.

SPEAKER_01:

By the Swiss guards?

SPEAKER_00:

No, by the police, by the Vatican police. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

So no interference. It's impossible. So when you're at security, you just have time to think, read, and talk.

SPEAKER_01:

Talk with the other cardinals.

SPEAKER_00:

You have nothing else. And often you don't talk because you're tired and because you spend a lot of time there. So sometimes you just need to pray. I do remember a cardinal after the 2013 conclave. I met him after, and I asked him, what did you do after the conclave? I said, listen, after the Pope Francis inaugural mass, I went back home. It was Italian, so there was not a long journey. So I went back home right away. I didn't want to stay in Rome one more day. It was too much. And then first thing, I went to my hometown and I bought a slice of pizza. I was not hungry, but I needed to get in touch with reality. I needed something concrete. So that gives you very much the idea of how they are there. So that's why I don't think it's going to be affected by like-minded people because what you feel there is different.

SPEAKER_01:

So building on that a little bit, there's a lot of talk about the church being divided right now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you think that like-minded or not like-minded, all the cardinals will want someone that can unify the church? And how do you think that will work?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the role of the Pope is actually the role of bringing unity to the Church. The Pope is a guarantor of unity, first of all. We lost a little this idea because, especially the last Popes, they were very much evangelizers, they went to world peripheries, not only Pope Francis, but also John Paul II with all the trips. And we like this idea, it's very charismatic and very good for media and it's wonderful. But the first role of the Pope is being the guarantor of the unity of faith. So I must assume that cardinals look for somebody like that. You know, we're human. We divide in many stupid things, we divide on many big things. So they will look for a pacifier somehow, I would say, I would think, but I don't know if they will succeed. For example, Pope Francis was in some ways a sort of bridge between two worlds. So they were looking for a bridge. but Pope Francis has his way of governing, and the way of governing always creates divisions.

SPEAKER_01:

He was very different.

SPEAKER_00:

He was very different. But, I mean, even Benedict XVI, that made of all his pontificate a huge attempt to bring unity, actually created divisions because there are always people that disagree with you. So bringing unity is the first task, but it's not that easy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, agree. Let's talk about some of the candidates. What do you think the top five candidates are?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, in this very moment, it's kind of hard because things have changed very quickly in the last few days. Obviously, Cardinal Parolin is considered a big... From

SPEAKER_01:

where? Tell all of their nationalities.

SPEAKER_00:

He's Italian and he's been the Secretary of State of Pope Francis. He's kind

SPEAKER_01:

of like the favorite one everyone's talking about.

SPEAKER_00:

Everybody's talking about him because since the College of Cardinals is very scattered and they've never met together, he's one of the few that everybody knows because he's been traveling, he's been representing Pope Francis in many situations, and he has a very mild personality. persona is very, very good in handling dialogue. So everybody likes him for that.

SPEAKER_01:

He's already a

SPEAKER_00:

shoe-in. Yeah. So everybody knows him. Then, obviously, you have other names. There is Cardinal Erdo from Hungary. Cardinal Erdo has been a cardinal since 2002, which means that he was created cardinal by John Paul II. He's one of the five cardinals that entered the conclave and that already did two conclaves before. Some of them never entered one, but he has the experience of two. This is his third.

SPEAKER_02:

Good point.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's moderate, he's conservative, he's a canon lawyer, which means that he's very much able to bring... He's a canon lawyer. Yeah. He brings order, very much. Not charismatic, but not even Parolin is very much charismatic, you know, but still. Then, well, I like to mention Cardinal Cristóbal López, that is Spanish, but is actually Archbishop of Rabat in Morocco. Cristóbal López is Salesian, and he's a very... like spectacular person. He is a trained journalist, becomes a legion, missionary in South America and then in Africa, and now Cardinal Rabat. He's very charismatic. When you listen to him, you think that everything he's saying is good, even if it's not. It's very good in that. It's great. We

SPEAKER_01:

call that the gift of Gab.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he has that. He has that, yeah. And I think his name is going to be pitched. Then, well, we have Cardinal Pizzaballa, that is Italian, but is patriarch of Jerusalem. His name is being very much in the row now, but I think he's...

SPEAKER_01:

He's my favorite.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I like him, but I think, you know, things are changing for him so far, so I don't think he's gaining so many votes.

SPEAKER_01:

I like him and Hungary.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, I like them both, too, and I can say I'm in good relations with both. And then there is this name that is coming out that is Cardinal Aveline from France, Archbishop of

SPEAKER_01:

Marseille. That's one I have not heard.

SPEAKER_00:

Somebody pitched this name. Aveline has a huge problem that he doesn't speak Italian. And that's... That's a problem. Yeah, he learned, but in the meantime, that will trick him very much here. So it can be a problem. It can be a problem. But these are the five names that are being pitched now in general. But I really think that things will change very quickly. We have still three days off to the Conclave.

SPEAKER_01:

Who's your favorite out of those five?

SPEAKER_00:

Cristóbal López. I always thought that Cristóbal López could make it. Since I met him first time and he was Archbishop, because I saw the charisma. And the thing is this, that since they don't know each other, they will easily remember the most the people who talk better.

SPEAKER_01:

The charismatic one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I have a question for you. Why can an American not be the Pope? It's never in the running.

SPEAKER_00:

In this moment, because... I saw

SPEAKER_01:

the face you made. You went, ooh, in this moment?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, in this moment, you don't have so much people's stuff among American cardinals. You know, to be... A pope, you need a series of characters. You need to be very widely known at international level. You need to know the Roman Curia very well, or at least to be able to handle with that. You need to be well known, and you need to get along with people. So Americans, easily they don't speak other languages. That's not true. Easily. I have

SPEAKER_01:

lots of American priest friends here that speak multiple languages.

SPEAKER_00:

But how many cardinals? That's the point.

SPEAKER_01:

Does Dolan speak Italian?

SPEAKER_00:

Dolan speaks some Italian.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Some Italian. Not perfect, but some Italian. Cupich doesn't speak any, for example. Tobin speaks Italian because he's been in the Curia. Tobin could be the most eligible one, I would say. But I

SPEAKER_01:

feel like there's something more behind an American not becoming a pope. It's sort of,

SPEAKER_00:

you know, you need some institutionality to get there, and still they're not in Iran. But I would say this is... just the generational, because if you went back to generational, there was Cardinal Spellman in the 40s and 50s, the Archbishop of New York. Cardinal Spellman could very much be papal material, but in that time they were electing just Italians. So it depends. You know, history has its way sometimes. Things happen in a way that you... There's

SPEAKER_01:

never been an American pope.

SPEAKER_00:

No. No, there has never been, because when the American hierarchy was set up, it was 18th century. Mostly, you know, Philadelphia Archdiocese was 17-something, so not long ago. And then American cardinals came a little later when the diocese became bigger, so it took some time. So you need some generation to get there. But if you think about that, we had a lot of African popes, although we don't think about that, because North African popes, like St. Augustine was North African, for example, not pope, but you had a North African pope. And you have Asian popes, because if you think there were popes from the Middle East, 13 from St. Peter. Sure,

SPEAKER_01:

of

SPEAKER_00:

course. So it's not just a European thing, but it became a European thing and mostly a Roman thing. In Rome, we had the Enlightenment, and with the Enlightenment, there was this... like a rebellion against the church. So the nation state were founded and the church was marginalized. So that's why the church got back to have Italians because they were mostly in their state. The church had a state. And so they mostly had Italians. And in that moment, the church had Every state in Europe is an enemy. So things change step by step, but it takes time. History is a strange animal. It takes time to get arrested somehow.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Andrea, for coming and talking with us here in Rome. Italian journalist, Vaticanologist. No, that's not the right name. It works well. Vaticanologist. Wow, what a wealth of information. Thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me.