Grief

In this episode the pair discuss the universally felt emotion that is guilt. They explore it within its different contexts (emotional, physical, spiritual). Shean’s Dad leans into the point that we are often the biggest cultivators of our own grief and we have the power to shape the intensity of the feeling based on certain actions we sincerely invest in. They look at practical solutions, tools and habits that can be applied and adapted to help manage within these fragile transitions. They discuss and set some foundations of inner wealth to help insulate and build bridges to better. Looking at the power of community, connection and creation (nature).

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Hello everybody and welcome to Yo Pops Podcast with me, Sean Williams and my father.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Good morning. Blessings.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

We are really happy to have you all with us again here today. Let's get through the formalities very quickly. Please like, subscribe, and share. You will see the links here, here, and here. Follow my dad on his socials at Bishop LA Williams. That's right. And mine is at Sean Williams World. Also, don't forget to follow at Yo PopsPody. Oh, sorry, I was getting attacked by a little insect there. And we can't wait to obviously interact with you. We have some wonderful things coming up. So we kind of want to keep you inundated. And if you are on the socials, then you'll be able to kind of get that information firsthand. Dad, how are you today? I am fine. Are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I am indeed.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Did you rest well last night?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I rested well.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yes. You're looking very kind of you are looking quite rested this morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

You too.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Thank you. Yeah. I got up quite early actually this morning. Okay. Got into the gym, felt good.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Is it because you went to sleep very early?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Not massively early.

unknown 1:34

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Not massively early, but I slept within a good enough amount of time to feel like I'm into today. But I woke up with a lot of motivation today.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Did you?

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, just kind of what I'd say that felt a little bit um what's the word? Insincere. What is? What you just said that did you? Didn't feel very kind of warm or welcoming. It felt a bit suspicious.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

No, no, I it doesn't. It's simply saying that you uh motivated.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Watch this back, you'll hear it and you'll be like, oh, I see what you meant.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yes, I'm thinking um motivated, yeah, sleeping and demotivated. Fascinating stuff. Because most people get motivated during the day when things are happening. You get motivated at night when you're sleeping.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Let me let me put this to you. In a creative mindset, when do they create most? Um when they are awake. Well, no, the quiet hours. The quiet hours. Yeah, when they're awake. Dad. If you are taking in, even though I know you're being facetious, but you are. Of course you are. But it's okay. I'm gonna leave you to do that by yourself.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Um, I want to speak to you today on a very sensitive topic. Okay. Um, something that a lot of well, we all will go through in different formats and um seasons of our life. That's a sensitive topic. This sensitive topic. Okay. Um grief.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

So now it landed, right? Yes. And you can see that I'm not trying to lead you down on our joke, but I'm trying to be quite serious. Um, it is something that affects people in lots of different ways, um, and people lean into many different ways of managing it, right? Some positive, some negative. Um, but everybody finds a different way, I think, to tackle it. It's quite scary. Yeah. Um, so I I wanted to open up the discussion today on grief. Um, and I have some questions that I think are quite pertinent. Um, because obviously everybody is individual, which means that their experience with something will draw different questions. So I tried to kind of during my research um not to generalize it, but to lean into the questions that I feel most people ask in these kinds of moments. Um, and obviously, with your work in ministry and dealing with people and having officiated hundreds of funerals, and you're often a person that those that are transitioning into eternity like to speak to before they leave this finite world. Um, I thought you'd be a fantastic soundboard because I I think you'll be able to understand the emotionality of it. Um, you obviously have spiritual understanding concerning it, and because of your job as a minister of the gospel, you have incredible amounts of empathy, which allows you to know how to deliver bad news to good people, right? Um, and also to teach people in moments of something that is quite scary. Um, and I think when something scares you, you're more concerned with surviving than learning. Right. Right? Um, so it's quite a deep topic, yeah. Um, but we're gonna obviously through our conversation, you know, have moments. Um so dad, the first question that I think a lot of people ask when they're grieving is why is this happening?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Okay, um, why is it happening? I think first and foremost one has to consider what is grief. Okay. Now, this is a grief is a deep sense of loss, and in most cases, loss of someone who you love in the case of death, or in you lost a relationship, or something that is very pertinent to you, yeah, and so that then bring one's into this state of grief. Um I always like to to consider it a bit like being at the beach, yeah. Where um if you can't swim, then you tend to stay at the shallow end, which is just you know really for anchor, anchor deep water. Indeed. But if you can swim very well, yeah, then you're not afraid to go out into the deep blue. And um it's uh I see it's a bit like that. So when we look at grief, I think the question is why is this happening? Why is it happening?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

You can remember the question. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

As I said, having explained what it is, uh then um It evaded you for a moment, of course. And then um, so yeah, so so this why is it happening? Because as I just said, it causes a great sense of loss, a personal feeling that great sense of loss. Um and as a result, they get into this state which affects them both emotionally, psychologically, and um in some cases mentally. Yes. Yeah, it affects people. Um but you remember I gave the example of the shallow and the deep. Yeah, um, fear oftentimes stops a lot of people from going into the deep because they feel they want to be in control of what is happening to them. Yeah, even though in most cases people don't know that it's perhaps a lot easier to swim in the deep than it is in the shallow. Yeah. So when a person finds themselves um with this in this state um of grief, there are a number of factors that is missing from the equation. And one of those is that it doesn't happen by itself. Grief doesn't happen by itself. You see, and this is what I think a lot of people missed it.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

This is a major key that you're about to lean us into. Because I when you first said that, my brain just went, huh? And then my brain went, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. Because you're right, grief, in terms of an agricultural sense, it is the leaf or the fruit. So no tree produces first with fruit, though.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

That is it. So it has to be cultivated.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Wow, wow. I've never ever looked at it that way. Of course it does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Let's see. And it largely depends on how you feel the thing, the person or the um relationship impacts you as to how deep you allow yourself to cultivate uh the grief. You see, I mean, you see.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

No, being serious, because I know you came in this morning a little bit jovial and a bit playful, and I was just like, oh, great, okay, cool. Let's we'll not. Yeah, you're in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

So uh so so it is what it is the the the basic the silent no-go area um in dealing with grief for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

It's the silent no-go area.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

What is um talking or getting to the real cause of grief?

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Got you, got you. Because most people are so scared of how sensitive the person is, you don't want to ask the wrong question, which then generally leads you into not asking any question of real relevance. Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

And as you had pointed out at the beginning of your introduction, that I having to deal with different people at different levels.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

And I had to quickly ascertain where people are at, both emotionally, intellectually, and um psychologically. I had to quickly determine.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Just break that down. When you are when you are calculating where a person's at, and just to paraphrase, when you're talking about where a person's at, you're talking about their maturity and their development, either emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

To deal with what you're about to say to them. Right. Let me give an example. I know this young man who lost his mother, and he clearly from the um emotional side, very upset, and um to the point of what I would say grieving, the grieving process is about to set in.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Okay. So he hasn't even started.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

It hasn't started, he just is upset. Because that's where it started first from. You're upset that this person who you love, or this thing that you love, or this, you know, a relationship that you adore, um, is gone. Yeah. So it first begins with upset. You know, that's how it begins. You're upset about it. Okay, then it transcends, it changes, it transforms itself into now grief because it has time for the seed to germinate. If you look at it from the agricultural point of view, it has time for it to do to germinate. And it is when it begins to grow, then grief it resembles. A grief is like that. So I realize that it is what you're feeding yourself, feeding your emotion, feeding your mind, um, that will either deepen the grief or lessen the grief. This is good, Dad.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

This is very good. No, because it's it's such uh it's such a mirage of a powerful force that no one would ever sit and think that they are the life force. Precisely the point to to this thing that they're looking at, and it's like, and most of us want to run the other direction now, right? Because it's almost like a tsunami.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah, but they're running with it. That is the thing about it. I love when he gets it. I I mean, I love his reaction, it is amazing. You know, you you couldn't pay for it. Okay. Okay, let's let's go back to it.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

I stop. Good. I'm not gonna take that away.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Exactly. Good.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Let's not do it in front of the world. I'm trying to say so.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

As I as you begin to observe how much they are now feeding this thing, yeah. The question that I had to ask this young man ask, what is it that you miss about your mother? Because she has been living a long time, and your time of interaction with her has been very limited to the point where you perhaps see her once or twice per year, if you really, really, she's really blessed. And um the latter part of her life, she has been going through incredibly suffering, incredible suffering. Yeah, but that did not make much difference to your lifestyle and your relationship with her because of your own personal responsibility, your job, your home, etc. etc. So I said, now that she has been relieved from the suffering and the indignity and the pain and all of the stuff that she was going through, what exactly is it that you miss? And suddenly I could see that he stopped in his track. In other words, whatever he was telling you. Absolutely straight away. So I said, by virtue of our belief, because of course, grief affects people in many ways, um, impacted by virtual cultural influences, spiritual influences, and other things like that. I said, by virtue of our culture, of our belief, I said, we know that when a person like her leaves, she's gone to a better place. So would you now want her to leave that better place and to come back to what she has left from?

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

I said, is that what you what you want? He said, no, no, no, that's not what I want. So I said, okay. So really and truly, it's not really her that is impacting you, it's really you impacting you.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Because you're using projection over perception. Absolutely. And you're allowing your emotional mind to magnify something that is it's meant to happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Indeed. So you're now telling yourself you're going to miss her, you're not telling yourself you don't have a mother, you're now telling yourself that you're gonna don't have a body to run to, even though reality is a far cry from really what you're thinking. So really and truly, it's not her that's causing the grief. You are, it's you because you're feeding the narrative, they're feeding the negative um aspect of the situation, which is all about you. Because she's no, she's not feeling any more pain, she don't even, she, in fact, as much as she loves you, she's not missing you because, as I says, her time here is done, and she's out of here, so to speak, out of all the problems, the issues, and all of that. So it's really you. So the moment that you understand that number one, she's in a better place, number one, things are better for her, number one, everything good is happening to her now, you need to stop feeding yourself with that with that with that negative.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

How do you take away the bowl and spoon of negative self-commentary, dad, in those moments?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

It's to look at the positive side of the situation. Like in the case of the mother, I said she's no more suffering pain. You have to be happy for that. No more suffering the indignity of being sick and all the stuff that goes with that. Surely you got to be happy for that. And I begin to outline all the things. So he then begins to re-rationalize it.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, he he's providing balance to a very to a situation that has none.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Because of how he's been thinking and how he's been allowing his thinking to process through his emotional power.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Precisely. And so the quicker you can look at the positivity for this situation. Um, because if one is going to be brutally honest, you know, you've got an old person sitting there. You know what I mean? They have lost all interest. Oh, I'm sorry, old older person, yes. Um, sitting there. And uh he loves that. He he he he enjoyed. Only because you said it to me yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

I was on the phone with my dad yesterday, he goes, I'm an old man, I said you're an older man. And he didn't like it.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, but yeah, he said it.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Invisible one that you want to be certain days he wants to be an old man, and certain days he wants to be a young man.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

So uh so in the face of that, then um the person when you begin to look at all the positives, you begin to remove the negative.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

See what I'm saying? And you're looking at saying earlier on that, you look at the older person, you know, and they begin to lose interest in life around them. If they have a beautiful car, they begin to lose interest in it. They've got money in the bank, they begin to lose interest in it. They've got a lovely home, they begin to lose interest in it. And the list goes on. And then physically a lot of them become impaired. And so they want to get out of that world. Yeah. And finally they do. The person now who is grieving what exactly are they telling themselves except it's about themselves?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you wouldn't lean into the yeah, you wouldn't lean into the the the alternative negative and to dive so deeply into it because the person that you're missing would never wish for you to do that. No, in fact, they'd implore you not to go anywhere near the.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Anywhere near the near the kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

It's a self-generating thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

It is, it is self-affliction.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

It is, yeah. Yeah, it's like peeling in your own bath water and talking about how tangy it is. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I think I need to put it to some therapy yourself. I mean, what possess you to say something like that?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

No, but it's it was the most please everybody forgive them. Forgive me. Because in in when you think of it, that what I just that example is disgusting, very disgusting. You have to be some kind of.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

But like in in your mind.

unknown 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

It's it's because I wanted to pick something that was so far removed.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah, it dawned, it dawns in you the really what's what is going on in the minds of people. Yes. That's really what it is. And because people have learned into this kind of stuff, immediately, you know, they don't go far apart from I said at the shallow end of the of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

You know, because it it suits some, it appeals to others, it justifies others. You know, there are a lot of the stuff that helps bring people into this into this state.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

This leads me quite neatly on to my next question. I think there are some elements that you've already answered in the previous question. Does that then necessitate why people feel that they feel stuck in grief? Or it is that overarching feeling of not feeling like you can move on past?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, they're paralyzed. And it is again self-paralysis because you're now telling yourself that rather than in spite of, you can't go on. And you know, other person know that everyone, so to speak, is going to be sympathetic and empathetic to them.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

So do you feel that some people lean into the currency of sympathy and they go deep into the overdraft that like they get facilities?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Because, you know, it can lead to other things that they would feel beneficial. I mean, there are people who allow themselves to be so deep into it that, as I said, they breathe about a certain level of paralysis mentally, emotionally, and physically. Which then, of course, lead on to the fact that if you are not, let's say for instance, in your work, if you are not able to work because you're suffering some kind of a mental or emotional trauma, then that is a reason for you to be put off work as well as for the government to facilitate. And as much as doctors are wonderful people, psychologists are great people, who's gonna tell you when that ought to stop?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

You can't. You can't, can you? Yeah. What is something that I hear very often in in the process of grief or grieving? Um, is the question, will I ever feel normal again? Firstly, first thing I wanted to ask is A, firstly, what is normal and then two, what is it in terms of either action or a series of processes that brings a person, and this is me kind of trying to perceive what they say when they say normal. I I always look at it as a person going, will I ever feel back in balance again? Will I ever feel equal or even again? Um, where does that come from? And how is it?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Well, it it again comes from the narratives that people are constantly telling themselves. Yeah. So the moment, as long as they continue it, then they're gonna feel imbalance.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

You see, the sooner you start feeding that, yeah, is the quicker you're gonna get back to reality. And to what whatever person will consider to be normal. What were they doing before the grief, whatever causes the grief, happened? That is the question.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Very quickly. Do you often think that and just as you were talking, it hit me this kind of little thought or concept. I often think that a lot of the time people's grief is guilt in fancy dress. And the reason I say that is because I find it very hard. We lost my uncle very tragically that I found it hard to feel as low as what I was seeing. Now let me give that context. I didn't potentially share what I call overly vulnerable moments with my uncle where he I would see him um emotionally broken or or in such ways. I saw seasons in his life where he was going through and it wasn't great, but there was never, there was never moments where I didn't feel like I could either relate to him or speak into him. So for me, the last time that I saw him was on the steps at church, and it was an amazing conversation. Wallace had just come home and he was with his partner, and and we just exchanged very quickly, and dad, that was the last time I saw him. Right. And even when I found out about his passing, I found it very hard to descend to the depths of grief that those around me were and now expected grief, expectation. How do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Because I mean people would expect you to sink to different levels of grief depending on the relationship that you have, you see. Now, as I said, sorry, the speed and the depth which you go in grief depends on how heavy you put the weight on. You see. And that is what you are not doing. Now, one of the amazing things about the funeral service, which is normally the the the the pinnacle of most people's grief. When this funeral, when you knowing that, okay, from now on I'm not gonna see the the remains of the person and everyone combine their grief and it triggers other other emotions in people. So you have that. If you know if you had to if you remember because they were playing all the positive side of his life, his music, his dancing, the messages that was coming through the music, it stemmed people sinking to that incredible um well, it cut the weights. It did, it did.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Dad, the other thing I wanted to lean into a lot when I was saying, talking about even just my own experience with it, was when I was talking about the guilt thing, when I could, I did. Absolutely, and when I couldn't, I explained to him why I could not. Does that make sense? Yeah. So there was never that I didn't when I heard when I heard of his passing, the loss felt less because what I was supposed to in the time I was given, I was able to. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Of course. And you were you were reminding yourself that you had fulfilled expectation.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Your own expectation.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Now, if you were not able to do that, then you're gonna be flipping that coin and it's going to be more and more negative. And there are so many aspects of things that you can lean into that can bring you, bring you down. And that is why, you know, when you look at someone who's grieving, any person listening to this would say, you know what? It is true because of what I'm telling myself.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Because the person can't speak to you. Then, you know, instead of you know, the situation can't speak to you because it's not there anymore. So you may feel a sense of guilt because you're telling yourself that there were moments you could have done things differently, there are issues you could have dealt with differently, and the list goes on. But it's you feeding that to you.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And naturally you're going to react to it.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Dad, probably the most pertinent question. The well, then these next two questions are probably the most pertinent questions that a lot of people would want to know. Um, firstly, how long does it last? How long?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Again, it lasts as long as you I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say that.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I knew you were gonna sit there and go, it lasts as long as you allow it to last.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Yeah, yeah, you know, because until you stop, you know, uh feeding. This is deep.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Do you know how deep what you're saying? And the reason why it's brilliant medicine, Dad, is because grief isn't something to, it's not something to be scared of. No. It is a part of the kaleidoscope and the conglomerate of who we are, why we are. And it's like that, it sometimes it feels like there are things that we that we run away from because we've lent ourselves into what I call the the candy floss diet. If it's not sweet and doesn't feel good, then we don't want it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Now imagine, for example, yeah, if a person was to be um was to go through some kind of therapy before the grief happened, a dissolution that causes grief to happen. And they are told, this is going to happen, this person is gonna die, this relationship is gonna break up, what it is, and therefore, how are you going to deal with it? What are you gonna tell yourself? You see me now that grief can either start there, yeah, because you're gonna, oh my god, I'm gonna I'm gonna miss this, I'm gonna do this, or you're either gonna wait until it really happens.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

It's almost like a person that runs a marathon. You've got the person that trains six months before, and the person a weekend before goes, Yeah, I'm gonna go run the marathon next week, and uh, I'm gonna go out on Wednesday and do a half an hour run, and um, and then they get there and they're like two minutes in. I'm dizzy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

So this is so this is where so grief needs preparation, and of course, I mean as much as you can. And that is where when you're prepared and you're not telling yourself the wrong thing, then grief is not something that is, you know, is gonna bring paralysis, but rather it it falls into its proper, its proper perspective. In other words, you know you're going to miss somebody, you know you're gonna miss something that you had that was good, you know that, okay, what you um felt was important, you enjoy it while it lasted. But like everything else, it goes through transitions. You see, so there's nothing wrong with having emotional bout where you miss somebody because you used to talk together, you used to relate in different ways together, and there's nothing wrong with feeling that sense of loss. You know what I mean? Now that is the shallow end of the of the of the beach as it were. Um, but when you're not gonna take it further and begin to pump into you um things that really either was not true, because so many times people have the chance to have spent quality time with somebody and they don't. That's the right. And you see, they have the chance to do so many good things to somebody and they don't. And oftentimes it's a mixture of guilt, yeah, you see what I mean, and the anger and the frustration that's with themselves, and even that is with themselves. I didn't do when I should, I didn't go when I ought to, I've not reacted when I should. So that is what so that's what you have. So when you come to that realization, yeah, and you accept that psychologically in your mind that now it's not trying to recapture something that you're not going to be able to, but it's to project your your vision forward to other things and other people that are important and not making the same mistake again.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

I see that. Um now this next question is going to be slightly slightly contentious for some because it's going to challenge a lot of the narrative that they tell themselves. It's also going to challenge what they truly understand about the reality of who they really are outside of their visual self, and it is going to put the responsibility upon them to understand the version of life they're living. A question that a lot of people I think want to know, Dad, because it's obviously I was I was yes, I was I was at a funeral last week and I watched as um those grieving and mourning went to have one last look at the person and the anguish because that was the last time that where they were going to be able to visually see the person and so on and so forth, which then leads into a lot of people's like, okay, where do they go? Where have they gone? Okay, red.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Within our of course, within our culture, like many other cultures, it is a thread that runs through most nations culture, that when you leave from here, you've gone to somewhere better. Um for us, we see it as heaven, we see it as the the place where God is, and the fact that we believe that He made us, it is natural that what we have within us that cannot decay, cannot perish, goes back to Him who gave it in the first place, and that is our spirit. So when that spirit leaves the body, because in reality, what's left there is just commonly called the remains.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

It's the shell.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

The shell, that is it. Everything is still there, the brain is still there, the lungs is still there, the heart is still there, the kidneys there, everything is still there. But the animal the power that animates is what we call the spirit, it's gone. Back to the maker, the giver of that spirit. And so where he goes, we believe it is back to him, back to a place of comfort, a place of paradise, a place that is wonderful. So therefore, knowing that, that is why one looks at what some people go through as grief, as conflicting, because if this person has escaped all of the downside to their physical world, to a better place with a view to an even better situation happening later, like eternity and immortality, etc., then why would you be distraught on that kind of level? So it's clearly not for the person that you're distraught for. Because who would want to take you away from honey? Who would want to take you away from the milk? Who don't want to take you from all the good things that is now going to happen? And furthermore, your freedom, your freedom from being bound to this natural world, you know, it's all glorious. And there is a quote in the Bible that said, to live is Christ and to die is gain. So therefore, the people that are going through this, what is considered to be motion and motion drawing, is because there is no real balance in their thinking. You see what I mean? Because they're just thinking about them. And you don't want to use strong word like selfish.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Um, but that's pretty close to hitting the bullseye. Honestly, Dad. Because that's what it really is. And for those people that are in either in moments of grief or they're around people grieving, that if you're of sober mind, it is one of the most fascinating times to watch.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Of course, it is.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Dad, it is, I have learned more about people through grief. Than I have in the motion of when their life is lovely, and because you get to see the reality of that.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Of course. And and the mistakes that people are feeling guilty over. Yeah. You know, you have somebody who for half the year, the whole year, you don't see them. And then now that they have this seat, you're now crying your eyes out over them, they can't hear you. Yeah. You know, and that is where, you know, you have to bring people back to that reality. Yeah. And that's where I think a lot of people have never been given the chance to be brought back to the reality of their situation and said, okay, put it in perspective. Right? Yes, cry if you want to. Because it's expected that you want to show your emotion.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

And um, you know, and all of that. And as I often remind you of this lady who wanted to be buried with her husband. Uh, yes, there's this story.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Uh grief.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

So this lady, she went to this, to the funeral of her husband, and she was really crying and you know, and want to be buried, want to want to get into the into the thing. So now the pastor, who normally is very, in cases like this, very sympathetic, told the people that's holding her back to let her go. So she can go and join and join her. Of course, the shock. Of course. And the pastor didn't do that. You know, she's never, you know, she's clearly love. Let everybody got to obey the pastor. Let her go. And here she has a clear path to the to the thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

She doesn't walk anymore. Imagine, please.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

So therefore, then you ask yourself, what was that all about? Is it what was because the reality is that you don't want to go uh and and and it looks good on the part of those around you. The mourners is too much to say that you're in a deep sense of grief. But the grief didn't last things really needed to come to the side. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

It wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah, you you also have those who one minute will be crying, doing all sorts. And the next minute they're in the in the in the club saying that they are drinking one to the person that never understood their ones that so you know celebrating their life, you know, dancing, laughing.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

So question: How do you manage the time and can you redeem the time?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Right. When you say manage the time, what's it?

SPEAKER_02 44:33

So if you have time left, is there a way to manage that time with that person and to get things not in order, but to to um interact and have moments that will build memories? Yes. And if it's past, can you redeem the time that will obviously give you peace in your own heart and mind?

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah. I think what what one of the key things is um is to recognize that there are some things you can't retrieve. And um, but if you are in a position where you can um fix future relationship um in any sense of the word, then it's for you to do so and do not engage in procrastination. Because that's what impacts a lot of people in the process of grief is procrastination. What they should have done, they take for granted that they have time to do it, and tomorrow is always gonna be coming. So therefore, maybe no, is what you do now, is what you create now, is what you engage in now, is how you value the now rather than constantly telling yourself, I'm gonna wait until everything is in perfect order before I engage in certain things, then that's when things happen and people begin to feel the impact of that guilt, that they had not utilized time and resources and opportunities as they should.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Procrastination is the poison of productivity, though. That I can't thank you enough for this conversation, honestly. Just brilliant. Um I hope that today's conversation has been enlightening, um, comforting, um, and grounding. Um, grieving and grief is something that we all go through. Um, but you don't have to go through it alone. It won't last forever. And you have power to decide when that tap goes on and when it goes off. Um, thank you for making the time to hang out with us. If you like what we do and you want to support what we're doing, please feel free to um subscribe and donate paypal.me at your pop'spody. The link will be there, you can see it. Um, we also have our Patreon links. Feel free to go to that also on Spotify, Apple, Amazon. You can stream it, the audio version, and you can also see the visual version on YouTube along with our social media clips on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook at YoPopsPody. Um, my dad's personal URL at Bishop LA Williams and mine at Sean Williamsworld. We can't thank you enough for coming on this journey with us. Um, and until next time, guys, from me, goodbye to my dad.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Stay blessed.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Stay blessed.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

That's what you've done so far.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

None of us are the exception to the rule of grief, and it's something that we all must pass through. However, I think the thing that goes undetected a lot of the time is the power that we hold within the process. The power of your decision to either invest or to withdraw from something. Sometimes it is the overwhelming feeling of sorrow and loss that shapes and influences the season or how we see it in the moment that we're experiencing. But as we heard in our conversation today, there are things that we can plant in the ground of our soil that will help us to grow fruits to help us overcome these moments. It's in the memories, it's through the practical application of the experiences that you experience with that person that provides the petrol for living. And within that, we have the three pillars community, connection, creation, your ability to be around people that love, care, and support you and are willing to hold you up in a moment where you don't have the energy or the strength to do it yourself. Connection on the basis that we were not made or built to live alone, but it is within the community of being together and the support and loving of one another that provides a connection within that allows us to have a firm foundation upon which to stand. And it is within creation. The four seasons that we go through each year the birth of spring, the bloom of summer, the preparing of sleep of autumn, and the descent of death in winter. Not because it's the end, but because it's the beginning. If we live through the long night in the morning, it'll all be new. Grief is something we all have to go through, but it's not something you have to stay in. You have more power than you think. Connect to what you know to be true, and allow yourself to not become paralyzed by something that was meant to pass, but allow the hope of tomorrow to be born in you anew. Take care of yourselves and each other.