Men’s Mental Health (Part 1)

The duo speak very candidly about the state of men’s mental health, they look at the innovations and concerted effort to get men talking, but discuss some of the old structures of thinking that stop men from being able to open up about what’s really going on inside them. Shean really probes and questions his father regarding his time in ministry and working with young men, as to the signs of pending danger, and many of the causes that push men into toxic and sometimes fatal spirals of no return. They touch upon spiritual anchoring and the residual effect of a strong and loving support system. In this episode you get to listen to a candid conversation from two people eager listen, willing to learn and determined to help.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this wonderful episode of Yo Pops Podcast with myself, Sean Williams and my father. Blessings to you. We firstly want to wish all of the men um happy men's health month. We hope that you are advocating and being intentional in creating balance, um, contentment and peace within all atmospheres and dimensions of your life. And we want to have a conversation today and hopefully provide some practical tools, also have some open conversation that will allow you also to be vulnerable and comfortable in listening to process, experience, and also potentially coming up with your own solutions and ways to create an environment that works for you. So, firstly, in the spirit of love and care, Dad, how are you this morning? I am good. You are looking very summery.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

I'm loving it. I think because the sun is shining. It's helping, right? Did you wake up this morning feeling just energized and good?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yes, I felt great. The sun always does that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Have you finished sulking now? Uh over what? Over our conversation a couple of moments ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Oh no, no, no. I mean, it comes with experience and therefore sulking? No. Um, you know, being directed. Uh yeah, let me use that word.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

What word no, what other word would you use? I didn't what I wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Do you know what? Let me be honest with you, and I said this actually um a couple of weeks ago. There are moments where I do feel like I am hard on you, but I also feel like, especially since my um metaphorical Damascus moment, that I'm more in the process of trying to guide you to more efficiency. No, you're allowed to say if you don't agree. That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

No, no, no. I understand from where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

So therefore, um but even though you understand where I'm coming from, it may not be the perspective you hold, which I'm always happy to hear what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

No, I mean the when you're in a certain place and times, yeah, you have to understand that everyone is processing at different stages, different levels.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

And it is understanding that processing that helps you to deal with situations whether it is comfortable or uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Okay. Do you feel like the information I gave you though is invariably going to be helpful? Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. Always helpful. Because I do understand, like, for many people that don't know, my dad actually taught me how to ride a bike and a car, even when I wasn't legally allowed to drive cars. So um, no, no, no, not that he was taking me on the road, but I understood the process, and I maybe have taken myself on the road. Um, so you did. Of course I did, yeah. Um I won't go into that. We could do that for another time, don't worry. Um, but I understand that there would have been moments where you also would have been teaching me process, and there are moments where you would have wanted me to learn absolutely quicker, but also you had the patience to be like, okay, I understand that he's gonna learn by virtue of his processing rate and experience and stuff. So that's why, even in these moments, as I'm learning more about myself and trying to be more self-aware that in my gusto and fervour with youthful experience and everything else, that I don't um assume beyond the place of understanding. Does that make sense? Yeah, and in that way we have more balance because there are things that you give me that help me to navigate the road better, and obviously there are things that sometimes I may give you that help you to see a little wider, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

So I think from a father's perspective, I couldn't help myself. I saw you waiting coming, I was just like, ooh. Uh you never stop teaching. You never stop teaching. No matter how old uh achieve achieving your children is, there's always more for them to learn and to teach. Um, because you're so much more ahead of the game, so to speak. So it is that time when you have to exercise understanding and patience because how people learn when they are 10 is not a whole lot different when they're that's very true.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

That's very true. Do you know what? And just to lean into that, um on a more spiritual side, and I understand why Jesus was so um focused on the nature and mentality of childhood, especially in receiving and accepting and understanding, and also dad, more than anything, letting go. That's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

It was the letting go, and and when you you look at that within children, it's such a it creates what's that thing that it's like nothing's ever too deep, nothing's ever too high, nothing's ever too wide, true, but what it always is is it's meant, yeah, if that makes sense, and that willingness to to to to grow. Yes, I mean, so yeah, yeah. Um, Dad, I was doing a little bit of research, and the first thing I have to say is the conversation that we had about dreams. And I said this to you on the phone, and it was funny because I could hear you kind of you were quite surprised by what I said, and you I could hear you didn't know how to take the compliment. Honestly, because you have what I call your your um your English-speaking PR voice, right? When you don't know how to, when you don't know how you want to react normally to something, right? And I said to you, I was I was just like, Dad, the the poly that you did on Tuesday was masterful, and you went, Oh thank you. And I was just like, honestly, who are you, Stephen? And what have you done with my father? Um, but I I have to reiterate that that you were able. There's a saying that if you can't explain something complicated simply, you haven't understood it well enough yourself. And the way that you navigated through that conversation and you gave not only insightful information but practical tools, yeah. Without um without forcing anybody to be like, well, this is the only way that you can hear it. And if you don't hear it this way, then yeah, it was it was such a beautiful presentation of information that um first I want to say I was really proud of you. Oh, thank you. That was that was it, guys. That is the PR. I couldn't have written that any better myself.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Thank you. That was a setup.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

That was a setup that was when my dad gets nervous or embarrassed or he doesn't want to play.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

That was brilliant. That was a setup.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

That was a bit of a I could have never that was the perfect setup to illustrate his point.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Oh, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

You are brilliant. Um so right, cool. Good job, Dad. Let's get into today's chat.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Um, so it's men's health month, and we know that it's usually most people kind of recognize men's mental health month in November. Right. Um, but when I did some research, I realized that June is also men's health month as well. Um, I think that especially with what I've been seeing, um not only in the world, but in my own personal circles, some of my business circles, I feel like there is an attack on the mental well-being of men. Um I feel like men have never been in such an identity crisis in, and I've always loved history. I had great history teachers, Nick Williams, Nicholas Kinlock, Claire Wright, um, and I've studied the history of the world, Dad. Um and I've never seen men so unstable, and I mean emotionally, spiritually, and naturally. Um and obviously I'm very blessed because um not only myself, but me and my brothers, we're very blessed because we have access to a father that um embodies so much of what we'd like to become. Um, but also we have a relationship where we speak very openly, and it's something that obviously a lot of people speak about when they watch our interaction. Um so, Dad, I wanted to delve a little bit into just some of your process, your development, some of your experience. Um, and and I'll ask on different levels, but also anything that you want to fire back, please do, and yeah, just speak as openly as honestly as you want to. Um, the first question I wanted to ask you, Dad, can you remember the first moment or situation that happened where to use a commonly phrased term that you felt like you had to man up or you had to the adolescent version of yourself was over, and the true adult male version of YouTube. Can you remember that point or moment?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

I think I can remember uh perhaps at about 17 years of age.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

And um there are other instances before that, but they were not as impacting as what it was at about 17 when I had to leave the family I know and migrate to the UK to be part of or to start another to exist within another family. Namely, uh mother and father was in the UK. I grew up with my grandparents, you know, grandmother, grandfather, and other um cousins, etc. So so yes, when I then had to leave, yeah, and that was myself alone going on a plane, and you have these the emotion of leaving what I know and familiar with to be going into this unknown. Yeah, you get what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Um and that's just not naturally as well, because you've got to, you've got used to, and especially from when you spoke in previous um podcasts, like you would speak about leaving and going out and hanging out with your friends, yeah, and sometimes my grandfather needing to open the door so you can come back in. And sometimes when you're in trouble, right? You you knew which cousins would cover you and which ones wouldn't. So your whole like family dynamic, Dad, was different to what you were traveling to. Yes, very, very much. And did you feel a sense of sadness when you were what you do?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

You you it it was it was navigating between the desire to for new experience, yeah, as well as um leaving what you know. You know what I mean? So I felt then it requires me to as you use a phrase to man up. You know, one not to show too much emotions that I am missing uh those around me, and um have the confidence to approach the future which was relatively unknown. So I felt that was a really strategic time in my life as a young man where I had to you know really get to get a grip of my personal emotion and take the bull by the horn, as it were.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Was there anything that you did upon moving to England that helped you to either settle in or would reconnect you with the the home life that you had back in Jamaica? Was there any was there any kind of practices or activities or no, I um because it was so different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I mean, environmentally it was very different, um, culturally, it was extremely different. Um so it was a whole new phase. New world, you know, literally. And you had to then begin to, I would say, have a crash course in tension, they call it now. Yes, intensity. Intensity, of course. Yes, I mean, in the environmental existence, you know, existing in the environment. Um, I mean, at that time uh 17, you know, you young and organized all going for you. And so here you come into an environment where, as I said, you have to pick up a hundred. You're looking at me as if you expect me to you want to hear some gory details of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

There is firstly there is no gory details.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

I see that I'm listening to, but I've got to be honest, it's it's the it is the parallel world of what you experienced compared to what we experienced compared to what your grandchild may experience. Does that make sense? Very much. And if he or she was sitting here and listening to your journey, it would feel so far removed from the world they would know. And so when when I when we speak, there are times when I'm I'm replaying so many moments and and I'm and it's helping me to sew moments together, yeah, and I get a deeper understanding of you. So not from no no no, I'm not trying to search you know, yeah, come at that crystal tears.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, let's okay, let's let's look at Frank just as an example, which I think gonna resonate with most young men at that age, is that everybody wants to find the best girlfriend that they want to that they think they deserve. Now, when I was back in Jamaica, then your approach to that relationship was very different.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

One, you you didn't use resources per se. Um, so in other words, you you know, because you're coming from an environment you can just throw money around. Yeah, exactly. You know, you didn't have that um there. So just be creative. Yes. And I think that's the that's the real real.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Do you think that's why you talk as well as you do? No, because people come to me, I get it all the time, oh you've got the gift of the gap. What is the gift of the gap? Hate me because I've got a wide but public, or I know how to seriously, but I'm getting an idea.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, it's um it was like that. So if you were not able to articulate what is it you really feel and want to say, you know what I mean? Then the chances of you getting a girlfriend was nil. You know, that is it. So it wasn't how much you have in your pocket, it wasn't whether you could go and get a beautiful mango and give it to the seal the girls, but you know, it was the ability to be expressive. And if you listen closely to people who came from my uh background, even now, whenever time they speak, and especially to ladies, they are very expressive, you know, and um I think sometimes people find it very well, they think you are hitting on them, you know. If you say, okay, well, you know, you use certain letters.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Look at all you're doing is being cordial, which kind of tells me where the world is, Daddy. Indeed. I've always said this to a lot of people because they're always like, oh, why, you know, for what you do, if you're in London, you can make so much, and I'm like, but London's not home. Dad, I can walk out of my house. Yeah, Sainsbury's is 150 metres that way. Between saying hello to Mrs. Molton next door, Dolly, who's next door to her, out in that garden doing more than that. I tell Dolly all the time, Dolly, stop. If Derek was here, he'd be telling you no. Yeah. To then going before I get to the roundabout, I might see Lizzie, I might see T T morning, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

I might see Brandon on his way to, and then that's before I even got to Sainsbury's and I'm talking to the baristas. So there is that there's that personableness where you're invested in the world around you because it's your community, right? Yeah. And I've never wanted to lose sight or sense of that, but there is nothing attached to that other than me just wanting to be nice and check in. And I think we live in a time and a space now where people are suspicious of kindness. Yeah. I almost I'd almost say, Dad, and obviously you can lean into this where you want, that we understand the fruit of the spirit to be love, joy, peace, long-suffering, which is patience for endurance, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, self-control. Right. These attributes in the modern day world are fruits of suspicion.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

And imagine that we have turned the things that would make the world better into tools of suspicion, which then makes us suspicious of the person that created them, i.e., yeah. So I can almost understand why the world is the way it is. So when you sit there and you say, well, no, me saying good morning to a person was just very, very natural.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

In fact, within that culture, um, you it would be a crime to pass somebody and not say good morning for them. And if it's somebody who is young and beautiful, then you have to have a bit more than that. It's expected. You have to it that I don't know if it's expected. That is seriously. Okay, it is experienced. And perhaps today with you when you go down there. When I go down where to Jamaica that I've been down there. No, no, no. You you you only visit under very heavy protection of grandparents and everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Dad, firstly, I was I I was I was burying one of my grandparents to don't forget the lovely ladies at American Airlines didn't even want to let me in with my trainers, as far as she was concerned. How can I be going to a funeral with them, the tree and there, and I'm a bug? And thirdly, Dad, when we had like the pre-service gathering, that that thing spilled out of the house.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

And all the way up the hill. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But that was too much uh for you to understand. So you you know, it's like it's like you know, too much to pick, choose, and refuse. So choose and refuse. Picking up different, different guys.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Anyway, that would be the right.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Of course, the brothers were all around you anyhow. So there you go. But in general, yeah, you know, that is what is expected. So you come into England, we know it's the absolute reverse. Yeah. You know, if you see somebody, like in the case of a of a girl that you are, you feel with some level of attraction to, you know, you watch how the young men were born here and they go up to them, okay, can I invite you to the pitches? See, that would never be done like that in my culture. You know what I mean? That would be obnoxious, in fact.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

You know, you just walk up to a girl and just say, Can I invite you to the picture? Can I buy you chips? You know, you know, you know, in a newspaper. That's not done. Okay. You know, so you would have to go through the process of wooing her and with the best lyrics that you can come up with. Uh, you know, and so like you don't have much problem because you can sing. You say you can't really.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Why are you bringing me into your mix-up?

SPEAKER_00 21:22

So, but that was so manning up was it cuts across so many boundaries. And then then you you have the the the fact that because where you grew up, you have space to move around, you know, whether it's going up to the to this to the town center or going to the field, you have it. Coming to England, he didn't have that.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

You have a little patch at the back of your house. And that was the extent of your movement. Unless you're gonna go to the park. And of course, we didn't have park to go to when they're in Jamaica, you know, because you don't have them cats. You got farms. Yeah. And so you know going there and as I said learning learning the um the the culture I remember going to the park when mother when mother let me out a couple of times to go to the park sound like a dog don't you know exactly so I go up to the park and you know walking around all by myself and then I saw this gentleman came and um he said hello and I think oh nice man very courteous I thought I said hello and begin to talk but he is his argument was sort of veering off to some kind of extreme situation so when I went home I said to him I said Mom I met this gentleman at the at the park and you know this was what he was saying and I said you're not going back up there you know why I said that um is is is not what you think consider to be so he's a person that took a like into you that you didn't want to take a like into sing simply I didn't know exactly because you know back where you come from that is and it it's absolutely unheard of I wanted to ask you a question was there ever a time in your life where you felt like you had to hide what you were truly feeling yes I think there are many times you have to do that. One I think because you're heavily influenced by your culture and within our culture in particular. Strength is a massive is a massive or there are things perceived to be strength strength yes and so um we grew up from young with the notion that you don't show weaknesses you don't show failure in fact I can't even remember many people apart from the few you see on the street have any such thing as mental issues.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Right. Yeah it doesn't that you know or even our understanding of it would be akin to a person whose life has swallowed so far that now that this is the yeah they get they get to that extreme.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

So it is the the normal and expectation that as a young man as a man especially as a man a man actor you must be strong and don't show too much sense of weakness in any way shape or form.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

That's why you'll it's rare to see for example um Jamaican it's rather that's where I'm from so crying it's funny you say that because in my nearly four decades of life never seen you cry. Indeed so and it also bothers me the amount of people that say to me I've never seen you cry and my first because my first question is why'd you need to see me cry you little weirdo like what's that got to do with you and anything else and and the reason why I say that is it even like obviously um we are dealing with the passing of um my uncle my mum's baby brother and her you know her siblings baby brother um and dad I I watched a lot of grief indeed and to an extent I I felt and watched a whole city grieve for a person anybody that managed to come to his home going service firstly 10 minutes before we started we were looking for more chairs to put out and then when we couldn't find any more chairs to put out dad people were backed up out into the car park I've seen people retrospectively who told me oh yeah I was at the funeral and I was like where and they're like we couldn't get into the to the church and we were and dad I saw a lot of people who many people that are local to our area wouldn't expect those people to be crying or shedding tears. But it was very interesting to me the amount of people who seem to be slightly concerned by my lack to them not showing that external emotion. And obviously a lot of how I are how I am is modelled off of you because I think you've given me great reflections to model off and to build and nobody's perfect so there's things that obviously you amend and so forth but one of the things I always admired about you was that it's not that you wouldn't feel but we would never you were never into that public grieving thing where you're laid out on the floor and snotting on yourself and rolling around no no dad because I know some people like that. Like yeah yeah and and I'm all I'm like you no I'd I'd rather take myself away and then if I have to be broken for a couple of days then then me and God we're gonna hang out and I'm gonna be broken.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I might phone you because we're yeah yeah and it's it's never really days it's hours yeah I think you know we don't ever get quickly yes you you quickly got to recompose and spin it right yes and and sort of because that's just your nature um and yeah so that is one of the things so you have to be very close to someone to for them to pour out their their hurt. Do you think a lot of men lack that in their lifetime yes they do. Isolation brings out a lot of mental problem and trauma that's a nice isolation brings out a lot of mental pressure and you know because that is one of the things when you don't have when you don't publicly you're not encouraged to publicly display your emotion then it has to take on you got to have an outlet but in a different environment that doesn't double stress you because for us if you have a private place to go and and be emotional great but imagine if you did in public yeah when you then see everybody thinking oh my goodness it must be bad for it for him to be showing his emotion in public that way so isolation is one of the things that really um affects um men um the other thing I believe that affects them um is aging um a lot of men worries about that what are some of the things that become prevalent in the mind of a man that knows he's moving through the seasons that if he hasn't got resources that's a major major major stress factor and um he will either turn to to think that sort of numb his or consciousness of his situation.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

So that's where you'll see people that maybe will start to excessively drink or they will excessively lean into negative habits and then you see kind of alcohol and drug abuse and other bits of and also maybe may mental abuse the expression of mental like you you all of a sudden your environment becomes something that you're in conflict with and when you don't have anyone to share that with then it can have traumatic impact on most men and I think it's what is happening to a lot of men in this particular in this environment or what I call the European environment because most people grew up being literally well not taught but it is accepted that you keep to yourself and don't disturb your neighbor don't do that and so as they get older and they find certain things they're not able to meet certain demands then it really impacts on them in a big way because sometimes you walk along the street and you will see people and you can discern you know that they are in trouble. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

And you want to go up to them and say you know something to them but it's almost you know in a culture where it's not done. You don't do that. You know so unless you create an atmosphere where you can break that perception and one of my ways of doing that is I would say something that they are not expecting. Yes for example the some two builders carpenters rather came to my office and these guys have never seen it before they have never seen me before and as they as they open the door I just you know with with a frown face you two doesn't look happy to see me and you know it breaks the eyes the shock of me of course it did you know they just burst out laughing you know as if they were coming in and immediately no if it was a situation where I wanted now to engage them by whatever I'm discerning. The doors then the door is is is is open you know they see that friendliness about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

And I find that with you uh people you know where yes where when we go out people just I don't know they just look at you and they just um feel this element of attraction um I always think they want to get to you and I'll probably say no no it's like any great restaurant you're not just gonna go to your table there'll be a host guy that you'll be like okay cool I need to be kind of cool with him because he has the ability to make my night or break my night he could put me right next to the toilet or he can put me anything honestly sometimes and and I don't mind because like I don't mind being your wing man. It's cool and I get a lot of people either either firstly reflecting it to me in there. I'm not reflecting to you let me tell you why because you're not with me when I'm getting stopped every two seconds people like that podcast with your dad oh my gosh blah blah blah blah blah and then they're like oh your dad he just looks so huggable and I'm like oh I could just listen to your dad for how blah blah blah blah blah blah so you sit here and the one and two times where you we might be together and something like oh sure listen those one and two times compared to one and two compared to one minute two minute and I'm like you guys that's weird right I don't come up you go you wanna have a mum for you so it's your fault