Men’s Mental Health (Part 2)

Part two of Men's Mental Health, the duo speak very candidly about the state of men’s mental health, they look at the innovations and concerted effort to get men talking, but discuss some of the old structures of thinking that stop men from being able to open up about what’s really going on inside them. Shean really probes and questions his father regarding his time in ministry and working with young men, as to the signs of pending danger, and many of the causes that push men into toxic and sometimes fatal spirals of no return. They touch upon spiritual anchoring and the residual effect of a strong and loving support system. In this episode you get to listen to a candid conversation from two people eager listen, willing to learn and determined to help.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Was there ever a time in your life where you felt like you had to hide what you were truly feeling?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yes, I think there are many times you have to do that. Um, I think because you are heavily influenced by your culture. Right. And within our culture in particular. Strength is a massive thing. Yeah, it's a massive thing. Or there are things perceived to be strength. Strength, yes. And so um we grew up from young with the notion that you don't show weaknesses, you don't show failure. In fact, I can't even remember many people, apart from the few you see on the street, have any such thing as mental issues.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

It doesn't matter, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Or even our understanding of it would be akin to a person whose life has spiraled so far behind that now that this is the yeah, they could they get to that extreme.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So it is the normal expectation that as a young man, as a man, especially the man actor, you must be strong and don't show too much sense of weakness in any way, shape, or form. That's why you'll it's rare to see, for example, um Jamaican, it's rather because that's where I'm from. So crying.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

It's funny you say that because in my nearly four decades of life, never seen you cry. Indeed, so and it also bothers me the amount of people that say to me, I've never seen you cry. And my first because my first question is, why'd you need to see my brother? You little we know. Like, what's that got to do with you? And anything else. And and the reason why I say that, Daddy, is it even like obviously um we are dealing with the passing of um my uncle, my mum's baby brother, and her, you know, her siblings' baby brother. Um and dad, I I watched a lot of grief. Indeed. And to an extent, I I felt and watched a whole city grieve for a person, anybody that managed to come to his homegoing service. Firstly, 10 minutes before we started, we were looking for more chairs to put out, and then when we couldn't find any more chairs to put out, dad, people were backed up out into the car park. I've seen people retrospectively who told me, Oh yeah, I was at the funeral. And I was like, Where? And they're like, Oh well, we couldn't get into the church. So we were, and Dad, I saw a lot of people who many people that are local to our area wouldn't expect those people to be crying or shedding tears. Um, but it was very interesting to me the amount of people who seem to be slightly concerned by my lack to them not showing that external emotion, and obviously, a lot of how I are how I am is modelled off of you because I think you've given me great reflections to model off and to build. Um and nobody's perfect, so there's things that obviously you amend and so forth, but one of the things I always admired about you was that it's not that you wouldn't feel, but we would never, you were never into that public grieving thing where you're all laid out on the floor and snotting on yourself and rolling around. No, no, that because I know some people like that, like yeah, yeah, and and I'm all I'm like you. I no, I'd I'd rather take myself away. And then if I have to be broken for a couple of days, then me and God, we're gonna hang out and I'm gonna be broken. I might phone you because we're yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

And it's it's never really days, it's hours. Yeah, uh, I think you know, we don't ever get quickly, yes. You you quickly got to recompose and spin around. Yes, and and sort of because that's just your nature. Um, and yeah, so that is one of the things. So you have to be very close to someone to for them to pour out um their their hurt. Do you think a lot of men lack that in their lifetime? Yes, they do. Isolation isolation brings out a lot of mental problem and trauma. Say that one more time, that's a man. Isolation brings out a lot of mental pressure and because that is one of the things. When you don't have, when you don't publicly, you're not encouraged to publicly display your emotion, then it has to take on, you got to uh have an outlet, but in a different environment that doesn't double stress you. Because for us, if you have a private place to go and and uh be emotional, great. But imagine if you do it in public, yeah, when you then see everybody thinking, oh my goodness, it must be bad for it for him to be showing his emotion in public that way. So isolation is one of the things that really um affects um men. Um the other thing I believe that affects them is aging. Yeah. Um lot of men worries about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

What are some of the things that become prevalent in the mind of a man that knows he's moving through the seasons then?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

If he hasn't got resources, it's a major, major, major stress factor. And um he will either turn to to think that sort of numb his or consciousness of his situation.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

So that's where you'll see people that maybe will start to excessively drink or they will excessively lean into negative habits, and then you see kind of alcohol and drug abuse and other bits of that. Absolutely. So and also maybe may mental abuse, the expression of mental, like you you all of a sudden your environment becomes something that you're in conflict with.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

And when you don't have anyone to share that with, then it can have traumatic um uh impact on most men. And I think it's what is happening to a lot of men in this particular, in this environment, uh what I call the European environment, because most people grew up being literally, well, not taught, but it is accepted that you keep to yourself and don't disturb your neighbor, don't do that. And so as they get older and they find certain things they're not able to meet certain demands, then it really impacts on them in a big way. Because sometimes you walk along the street and you will see people and you can discern, you know, that they are in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

And you want to go up to them and say, you know, something to them, but it's almost you know, in a culture where it's not done. You don't do that, you know. So unless you create an atmosphere where you can break that uh perception. And uh one of my ways of doing that is I would say something that they are not expecting. Yes. For example, the some of the two builders, uh carpenters rather, came to my office. And these guys have never seen them before, they have never seen me before. And as they as they open the door, I just you know, with a frown face, you two doesn't look happy to see me. And you know, it breaks the eyes, the shock of me. You know, they just burst out laughing, you know, as if they were coming. And immediately, you know, if it was a situation where I wanted now to engage them by whatever I'm deserving, the doors open, then the door is open, you know, they see that friendliness about it. And I find that with you uh people, you know, where yes, where when we go out, people just I don't know, they just look at you and they just um feel this element of attraction.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Um I always think they want to get to you, and I'm like, it's like any restaurant. You're not just gonna go to your table, there'll be a host guy that you'll be like, okay, cool, I need to be kind of cool with him because he has the ability to make my night or break my night.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

He could put me right next to the toilet or he could put me honestly, sometimes, and I don't mind because like I don't mind being your wing, man.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

It's cool. And I get a lot of people reflecting it to me in there. I'm not reflecting to you. Let me tell you why. Because you're not with me when I'm getting stopped every two seconds, people like that podcast with your dad, oh my god. And then they're like, oh, your dad, it just looks so huggable. And then I can just listen to your dad for how blah blah blah blah. So you sit here, and the one and two times where you we might be together and something like, oh sure. Listen, those one and two times compared to the compared to the one million, two million times, I just want to hug it, I just want to have a map. And I'm like, you realize that's weird, right? I'm not gonna come up to you and go, I just want to have my mum. You'd be like, What do you want to have my mum for? So it's your fault, basically. Okay, um, Dad, I wanted to ask you um this question, based off of what you said. Um, if historically and traditionally men have had constructs that have allowed them to be open in how they feel and haven't, what emotions do you feel were safe for you to express and weren't safe for you to express either growing up in like the opening stages of your manhood or even as you kind of were in your what I call your solidified self?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Uh uh one of the things, one of the solutions to mental health is community.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

You know, to be part of a community. You perhaps that's why so many men go to football and other tennis, exactly, you know, because it's just it's just the dynamics, it's just the whole synergy of being in an environment like that, it is distressing them. And if they meet friends or people they drink with and can talk, etc., etc., it works. So for me at the age of 19, when I came into fellowship with God, when I came into church, it was one of the greatest things I felt at that age that uh I would call it it's a transition. Yes. Because you're moving now from your teenage into, as were your adult age. And to be in an environment with people of all ages was the greatest, one of the greatest security you could feel as a young man. Because if you want advice beyond your years, they were there. If you want to interact with others coming up, they were there. So it was it was really good. And I feel that the more that the people vilified the church, yeah, is more destruction it's causing to the likes of men and spent.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

That there's something that you just said in that, uh, in terms of like you saying your spiritual relationship with God that then led to the structures you put in your weekly life and your everyday life, right? Now, because of that, that one act knocks out one of the most critical things you said that causes men's mental health, isolation. Indeed. Through community, firstly, you have other people around you that think as you do, but not only that will challenge how you think. Yeah, it also creates, like you said, connection. And through that, you're developing a better personal nature because you you're you're growing to something that's bigger than yourself, than how you feel, and also I think which is a lot of men are finding this, dad, is that the weight of the lives responsibility and the commitments they're carrying, dad, they do not have the strength to carry themselves yet alone to carry it or wife, kids, career, emotion. Yeah, and so without obviously being preachy, it's and it's just you actually delivering perfect factual information, yeah, that your spiritual relationship with God almost created another road for you to escape into, indeed, get the solution, come back into the problem, and be like, you're actually under my authority.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah, simple. And that is really, really good. And it is if I had the option to say to the government, more time and money, resources should be put into church circles because you have such safety on different level, you know, it gives it gives guidance to the young ones that are coming up, especially who may be single parents or you know, don't have the preferable father figure or you know, mother in their lives. You're in that community which offers all of that. And so you grow up with a certain level of confidence. And I'm sure that people look at you performing, and they would be mesmerized by it, but they're thinking, okay, how is it that he's able to do it with such confidence? But then they don't know that from you were seven, you were standing before a congregation of thousands, you know, performing.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

You know, that can add a little caveat into what you said. I think what you said is completely right, and I agree with you completely. I would say the only difference is this you can see me perform on the O to Arena stage, and you can find me on a Sunday or even on a weekday with one student, their parent downstairs, and pouring into that person the same way I would to 27,000 people, and that I know what it is to look and see 27,000 people around me. I know what it is to look into a child. Yes. And the same verve and vigour that I perform to the 27,000, I perform to the one, and the only thing that sometimes I find is that there not you personally, because I think the area of ministry you've gone into, which is an evangelical one of what of the apostolic nature, which means that you go to different places in the world and you set up churches, not in rich affluent areas you have done, but primarily that's not where you are. You're going into areas where there is lack, um, where there's need, and if the church was going to do it on the basis that it was really going to serve the community as Christ wouldn't expect us to do that, which isn't then going, okay, we'll deal with the sicknesses that we want to deal with, and we'll deal with the problems that we want to deal with. If it was really of what I call the hospital manifesto, I do think you're right. I think we'd see a lot of societal change. Yeah. Because when I grew up, it was normal for you to not be on the street on a Sunday morning because nothing was open and you were meant to be with your family in the house, having that time. So what I want to say was I agree with you. I also wanted to ask you, Dad, like, so just in terms of certain emotions that we are familiar with today, what ones do you think weren't readily acceptable for you to express and show? Do you think you could have been vulnerable?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

No, I think um one of the things I felt perhaps even to do with our culture, yeah, it was that lack of expression of what was genuinely affecting you. You know, because it was it was like something were like taboos. You know, you just don't be that, you just don't talk that, you just don't act that way. Um so when people find themselves caught into that kind of spiral, then it's very difficult for them to express it to perhaps those who are closest to them. And it is for me a big challenge. And that's one of the reasons why I would like to feel that I set myself in a way by which at any time, starting with my children, they could come to me about anything and I would accommodate the conversation, and they don't feel that they are crossing boundaries or you know, overstepping the mark, as it were. And it is what I believe that if most men were able to have people in their lives where they could go to and express themselves freely without having a sense of judgmental uh you know reaction to them, that would be a great way to relieve a lot of the pressure that they that they uh engaged in. Because a lot of it could be just need proper direction. For example, a lot of men are stressed, are going through this mental problem because of what they fear, what they call anxiety. They're afraid of what they think is gonna happen. And they suddenly can't sleep, they don't eat right, they don't rest, and so these are would be guiding principles to say, okay, you got to start somewhere to address that mental problem. Yeah, these are where you need to go. So if something personally, if a person were to ask me, what difference would you do now than you did then, would be to take those things and make them mandatory. I would put it as a rule. You rest, you get your eight hours rest, and don't allow anything or anyone to interrupt that. Your diet. You know what I mean? Because because that really impacts. Can I say something to you?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Two months ago, I was here talking to you, and I gave you some information that you weren't privy to beforehand about things I've been setting in place for you that you weren't aware of. Um to everybody listening, I haven't been on top of you being like, I think you should be doing this. Actually, rest, yes. Diet activity and other bits and pieces. And I've watched you. It's not I don't see you coming in here trimmer every week.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

I'm being serious, and I'm I'm hard on you sometimes. Now, if I did answer, then you're gonna say, Oh well, oh, he's he's coming with his professional. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Because I could tell at first you weren't expecting me to say that. So that's a mention you wanted to get ahead of what I was gonna say. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

You don't like you're good at compliments, but you don't you don't like them. But I want to sit there and say, I love it because what it lets me know is that dad, it's okay the world valuing you, but if you don't see the value in you, and it's why I feel like these conversations in this podcast, like I believe God gave it to us because men need to understand their value, dad. They do, they do, and it's my job to bring that good news to them, yeah. Because if if they can get them level, all of a sudden the world around them finds balance and and now the horizon has is full of potential and excitement and hope, and now everything's possible. Why? Because they believe it's to transact that intrinsic belief system, Daddy. Um and I wanted to ask you as my final question, because I need to get you out of here because I know you've got a long day. Um what do you what would you hope that you can pass on or teach? That will make the next generation of men in our family better.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah. I think every person should find a community that they are comfortable around or in. Every man should understand that without adequate rest, that's why God gave us 12 hours of darkness. Yeah, not to be saying that. Sorry, as you said, God gives us 12 hours. So you remember I said earlier on that if there's some things to change.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

I'm joking up.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, but so these are I would say is crucial. The the third one, as I said, your diet, you know, because we are in danger. We are danger to. No, no, God, God, she's being serious. We're in danger of. Yeah, no, we are danger to ourselves. By the stuff we allow the media to incite us to do and take. A balanced, proper balanced diet is really, really crucial. We do like you, media people. We need you. Of course, of course. So um, so yeah, I should say advertisement, really, not the media, the advertisement. See, advertising. Be safe, it's fine. And um, so yeah, that would be exercise. Okay. Another, really, really, because as his exercise has not only physical benefit, but mental benefit, etc. And it goes on from that. So those are some of the you know, in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

But I must believe, and I'm gonna let you go because I know you've got you're telling me that all you want for your grandkids is that you want them to exercise a bit more, eat a bit better, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

No, no, no. I say that they have to rest. Okay, okay, and they'll rest. Okay, and um they have to make sure they look after their granddad. The sister. You know, very important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Okay, let me, and I I okay. For everything you know about me, okay, I want you to think of three things that you don't think I manage well. Just emotionally. You don't have to say them out loud, right? Okay, and then I want you to see mini me. Okay, and I want you to imagine that I've called you and I'm like, Dad, I've got to go do a sample replay session. Ah, dad, Craig's got a new single coming out, I've got to go do thingy. Can you look after? And you're like, yeah, okay, cool, bring it to me. What are the things that you'd be doing with him that you know his father does that you're like, I'm gonna make sure that I plumb your irrigation that way because his goes that way, and I don't want yours to follow his because I'm saying this so that you can feel the liberty to feel free to to because dad, you are a very deep thinking person, there isn't too much you don't see in the moment, right? And whilst I want everybody to connect to this, I can't ask them to be vulnerable if I'm not first. And and the reason why we go to expert surgeons is because the comfortability in their craft means that I can be I can afford to be vulnerable with you because the risk assessment of mistake is so low. Yeah, does that make sense? And and obviously, I love the fact that you're protecting me and my brothers, and you're like, Yeah, yeah, we're just gonna, but no, no, because you being able to pick that out in me might help another father who needs to tell his son and he can show him this and go, I'm not trying to pick out your faults, I'm just saying that we can make this better and that this ground is fertile enough so that when the next version of you comes, we'll plow this together. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yes, uh, it does. Now, I personally believe that over time you have master situations.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

You know what I mean? And that is one of the most important things in any person's life is the ability to master situations. Now, I take as a typical example your exercise regime. You know what I mean? You've mastered that. Come rain, come shine, snow, whatever. You're at it, you're dedicated to it. Again, your your diet, I've watched over time master that, where you not only just expect to go and just buy ready-made stuff, you're learning how to you're learning how to to cook the right thing, which then give you that balance diet we're talking about. And I would think that a little bit more interactiveness with trusted friends, I think would go a long way. Why I've noticed that you have very specific friends who you hang around with. But to have it too pure is not the most ideal thing. You know, so a bit more of that I think would go a long way. Now, it may be because people draw from you a lot, because they do find your ability to speak into their lives as a very plus side to them. But where you can interact more, whether it is, like I go play golf or other things like that, which is very, very, very needful, to give you that blowout. You know what I mean? And because you're intensive in what you do, whatever you do, you're very intensive. That would help to relax you um uh a lot more. And when little junior comes, yeah. Hopefully before the rapture.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Um that was so unnecessary. That was so unnecessary, but it's all good. You have the floor, please. No, you're fine, you can laugh loud now. We've got new mics, it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So, um, but yes, that is one of the things. I don't think a lot of people see that seriousness of you and they love it. They love that you're creative.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

But Dad, I'm I'm very mischievous. Like in terms of because sometimes I look at people and they're like, you can see that, like, I'm like, you think I'm 24-7 serious.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

But if you know me. Oh no, no, that's right. Dad, I'm more like But it's only the few people, that's what I said, only the few people. So you have to have more in that circle who can see that. Um, see that about you. And um so that when things impact you, yeah, are if those very close ones, you know, you can count on one hand. Move away. Yeah, it's only the one hand. Just that. Yes, move away. You don't feel so isolated, you know. Uh that is one of the things that perhaps worries me the most, is that sense of the because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

So you don't want your grandchild to grow up isolated? No. Even if they're gifted. You want to find a better balance.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

You gotta find a better balance in that because it's necessary. Um, circumstances always coming, situation always changing, and so you gotta be able to adapt for it. So as much as you have the guy who polishes the gold and the silver, you gotta have somebody who sweeps up the yard.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

You know what I mean? Will you do me a favor? Will you end this with just a prayer for every young man that's going to watch this that the seed, the intention through which we've done it, then it just seeps through the airwaves, dad, and it creates transformative change.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Um Father, we thank you for this opportunity to speak into the lives of people everywhere, especially men. We're asking, Lord God, that these words that we have discussed will impact their mental state. I pray that they would have learned from it what are some of the basic necessary steps to take so to bring health back to their mind, to their body, to the environment, and most important, that they can discover their spirit. I pray in Jesus' name that these words will resonate with them wherever they are, wherever they're going, and whatever they're going through. And to let them know that there are people around them that has answers and their support if they will just take the time to look for it. You are the first put a call. Lord Jesus, that if they call on you, you will direct their path to that which brings solution to their problem. Now that we're asking you to bless everyone who's listening. And Lord God, I pray that through revelation you will lead them to that solution that they need in their lives. We ask it now in Jesus' mighty name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

You know, I need a bit of quick prayer, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

That's also clear. That's quick.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

That was quick. Firstly, it was perfect. Thank you for that. Um, guys, thank you for tuning into this episode of Yo Pops. Um, we can't wait to see you next week. Please take this conversation, have it with friends, brothers, cousins, fathers, grandfathers, everybody. You're important, you matter, we love you. From me, bye from my dad.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Blessings, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Bye guys. Welcome to Yo Pop's Afterthought. Firstly, we hope that you enjoyed our latest episode on mental health. Secondly, to all the men, we want you to know you are seen, you're heard, you're valued, and you're loved. Beyond your responsibilities, your commitments, your desires and your dreams, everything you want to do, you matter. Think about these as foundations for building. As men, as people, we all need these three things community, connection, nature. With these at the base of our building, what structure can't we build? What contentment can't we have? What peace can't we live in? So remember, take time for you. That's all you need to do. See you next time.