Michael Jackson

This week's episode, dives into the conversation about Michael Jackson biopic and the legacy of one of music’s greatest entertainers, Michael Jackson. With the talk leading to generational trauma's, abuse, and the Music industry. 

In this episode, Shean reflects on a powerful full-circle moment that brought back memories of performing for the 10th Annual Michael Jackson Day at the legendary Eventim Apollo, where he had the honour of singing to and for Michael Jackson himself. As Shean Performed for the Craig David Born to do it album 25th Anniversary show, in the very same venue. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello everybody and welcome to Yo Pops, the podcast with me, Sean Williams. I'm like, dad. These are getting better and better and better. Your entries into the the body are fantastic. Wonderful. Today now we've got the peace and the blessings.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Keep the blessings coming. Blessings coming. Very important. And especially in a time of war, it's good to have peace.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, I think the more peace we can have, the better it is, right? Absolutely. Tell me, Dad, how are you? I am fine. Oh. Yes. There was a bit of a hesitation before the statement. Yeah, wait, there was a hesitation before the affirmation.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Indeed. So are you fine? I was just sort of checking to make sure that everything was intact. So that's the slight hesitation you heard. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

And is everything intact? Finally it's all intact. How was your weekend? Because obviously.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

My weekend was busy. Okay. I must say I had three sermon on Sunday. Yeah. Which was kind of the four o'clock, 4 a.m. And then the 10 30. And then of course the 4 30 in London.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

It's quite heavy going.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

It is it's quite very much. Very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Some people might ask how do you balance the schedule? Because obviously to you don't wake up at 4 30. The sermon starts at 4 30. Which means that potentially you're up at maybe 3 or half past 30. Definitely 3. And then to do another sermon at 9 or 10. 10. That's quite a heavy heavy schedule, even for someone that maybe had a little bit more time than you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yes, I think um the thing is when you enjoy something and it's your gift, then it isn't as challenging as it would be for someone who's trying to fit into something that they're not naturally gifted to do. Yeah. I mean, so for me, teaching and preaching is something that been my life enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

And it comes it's a bit like someone singing. You know, if they can sing, it just comes natural.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

But would you maybe agree with or maybe disagree with that even in a gifted place, even gifts need balance.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Absolutely, balance is necessary. Yeah. And um, and so that's why you weight up what you do in one on one day against what you do on other days. So for example, on a Sunday, I know I'm busy, so on a Monday I tends to take it a lot easier um to bring that balance into play.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Do you find you are able to do that within the balance of each day? And let me give that kind of context. Because of the nature of your job, and this is actually leading into what I want to talk about on the potty, so don't think that I've just been like, I'm gonna pull that thread and have a go. Um do you think that the nature of your job is it's a bit like the medical profession? A doctor can have a scheduled day off, but if the phone goes, that goes up in smoke. Yep. Does that make sense? So with the best intention, you can plan to be like, okay, I'm gonna have that time, but even in maybe let's say a moment like now where in terms of your attention having to be in different spaces, and when I say different spaces, I mean like even on continents, right? Which means that calls are coming in at different times because that's when that group of people they're awake to the world, right? And sometimes, even within the nature of emergency services, nobody really cares if like when you're coming into let's say the emergency room, the last thing you're asking yourself, I wonder if my doctor had a good nap at lunchtime. I wonder if he does that make sense the only thing that that person is concerned with, or those attached to them, yes, is are they qualified and are they the best person in the building? Yeah, does that make sense? Very much. So, in terms of like I said, you'll take a Monday um or another day, if you lose that day or you lose that time, do you find it hard to recalibrate the balance, or do you find that you have to make like a concerted decision and effort to be like, okay, cool, I missed that pocket of rest. I need to get it that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, I make um I make uh I would say a concerted effort to make up for whatever time I've lost in in other upper in other activities. So I tend to do that. And regarding to say, regarding the phone, um, if I belie if I think that it's becoming excessive and disturbing, then I would switch to either silent mode or to switch it off so that um you know I can get a proper rest rather than because if it's on say for example vibrate, and once it's going, your mind is ticking, saying, okay, wonder who that is, what that is, etc. So I would now I now sort of bring it to a place where it is silent or as it says switched off, and um catch up on whoever and whatever is calling. You're funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Shall I tell you why you're funny? Why? Because you just told on yourself by accident. What? You just told on yourself by accident. In what sense? On the sense that I only refer to the phone on the basis of a doctor being on call, right? So it it it wasn't necessarily about okay, are you on your phone too much? It was more so the basis of when you work in a certain space, right? Irrespective of what you've planned. Right. If you get a call to be like, yeah, we know you're at home, get into the hospital. But I it it makes me I'm happy in another sense because it means that it's at the the the forefrontal part of your mental cortex that you're conscious of your phone output. Well done. Because obviously you had another mysterious caller on Sunday morning, didn't you? Yeah. Um mysterious. Well, we can't see who it is calling. You can see because you've got the five phones facing you. So you to the rest of us, we don't know who's calling, and you and it's not like you stop and go, sorry, everybody. So and so in India. It's just does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yes, that's why it's mysterious. It's just a India. They were particularly um, I'm not sure exactly whether they were intentional and not because now everyone knows they should know that the it's around that time.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

I am um but if a person picks up the phone 95 times out of ten, then they may just call whenever they want to.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, no, no, I don't think it's 95. I think it might just be I'm being, I'm being I'm being. I can be into I can see you got that twinkle look in my eye right. No, not twinkle.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

It's a twinkle. It's a twinkle, trust me. Under these lights, of course it's a twinkle. Let me jump into today's potty. Um, I went, I don't know if you've heard about the Michael Jackson movie. Correct, yeah. So it's um it's out and it's done very well. I heard that. I was very interested to see how it was going to be accepted and or received, right? Because obviously there are certain allegations attached to the legacy of Michael Jackson. Now I have my own views about how these allegations became attached, um, and my own exposure within the music industry and understanding how the business of the machine works, yeah, right? And I will say this that not a lot of talent, and especially when you think of the era that Michael Jackson came up, there were other than I would say Motown, there wasn't any other what I would call progressive black music moguls and executives. And when you look at the deal that he did with Sony in the 80s, um, or it might have even been 95, I'm not sure. It was either 85 or 95, I think it might have been 90, either either or when the creation of Sony ATV came about, it made him one of the most powerful, not just like entertainment figures in terms of an artist, but business figures, yeah. Because anybody that kind of knows music, the real money in music is in publishing and owning the rights. So the deal he did with Sony dad, basically, let me oh, let me put you up on a little bit of game. The deal he did with Sony, he basically ended up owning 50% of the catalogue with them. Owning it. Owning it. So what they wanted to do is he'd he'd done a very smart business move where he went and acquired the Beatles publishing. Right, right, all of the Beatles publishing. Sony was so annoyed and so kind of put out by it that they offered basically half of their music publishing to own half of the Beatles' rights. Okay, which then gave Michael Jackson access to the publishing rights for all of these, and we're talking about artists like Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen of modern day era, Eminem, Taylor Swift, like huge stars, dad. Yeah, and the guys that generally work at that level of the music industry, you don't see them dad. They're a name, they're not really a face. Do you understand what I'm saying? So it was very interesting to me to um to obviously see it and explore it in that way and see kind of obviously how people would take to the movie. Um, it's it's done record-breaking figures at the box office, it's done really, really well. Um one of the things that really got to me though was the story within it because they've left out a lot of stuff, indeed, right? So obviously, with a life like Michael Jackson's dad, there's gonna be there's so much to talk about. You can pick so many different parts, and they're also gonna do a part two. Okay, but in the first part, it stops at 1988, so we get a lot of the initial early years with his brother's family, and then him breaking out into those kinds of big albums, and obviously, one of the things that it majored on was the relationship between his father and himself and also how he ran the band. Yes, so it we all have our moral idea of what we think is right and wrong, and I think I'm gonna surprise a lot of people in terms of I I watched it far more objectively than I did subjectively, Dad, if that makes sense. And I was able to use my objectivity to then become subjective in areas that I think allowed me to make sense of what was going on, right? Now, the first thing I want to say is that I think there are there are certain ways of parenting that are ascribed to certain times and periods of of history, if you want to say, okay, and that's just the way it is. With time, you you come up with new methods, or sometimes you don't remake the wheel, Dad, you just find a new way to decorate the wheel. That's right. Do you understand what I'm saying? Um, and also I will say within black family culture, disciplining in terms of it leaning into sometimes um what there is a word that I'm looking for. You might get spanked. That's a really nice word for it, okay? Or you might be spanked a little bit more intensely, and obviously, Michael felt in terms of what we're shown as well, he it was excessive. Okay, okay. However, there was a part of me that looked at the situation and I sat and I thought to myself, whilst I don't agree with the action, the intention behind the action is triggered through what I called two very distinct lines of I call it love and trauma. I don't believe that I don't believe that Joe Jackson didn't love his family or his kids. Yet at the same time, I think he understood that there was a doorway for him to potentially change the idea of what life could mean and could be. Right, Dad? And it's almost like you then make a decision that you you're either going to now develop this amazing transformative thing through the lens of love, or you're gonna you're gonna develop it through the lens of control that really is triggered by an instinct to survive. Right. Because there was this one point in the movie where they refer he referred to the fact that they were from Gary, Indiana. And so it was almost a thing of being like, we're not meant to make it out of here, and we have a chance to really make it out of here. Now I'm not making uh what's the word? I'm not trying to defend what what what happened or what his father did, but I'm I want to maybe try and understand the other side of the balance that sometimes those that look for a very like black and white lens dad, right? Um and obviously you and mum allowed me to do a lot of you allowed me to do a lot of things that lent me into the career I'm into now very early on, right? Now my experiences are markedly different from what Michael Jackson experienced, right? So the first question that I really wanted to ask was What's the first thing that goes through your mind when you you sometimes you may you may look at your children and go, okay, so-and-so has something, and there are people that are alerting me to the fact that so-and-so has something, that my child has something. What's the first kind of thought as a parent in terms of how you either nurture it or you put in the boundaries to to kind of control the surface area around it? What are the first things that kind of go to the thing?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I think the first thing that comes to my mind is interests. Okay. Um, whose interests am I pushing? My interests are the child's interests. That's right. So that's what that's what the the first two things I think about. And um and if as assessing the Joe Jackson uh situation, yeah. As much as he loved his children as children, he loved himself more. And he was driving everything on the basis that he's going to be well looked after. And from his achievement or acquisition, he can then uh help to facilitate his children. And that was why for me you would then lean into any form of abuse rather than saying that if you genuinely love someone, then you're going to uh work with them for them to achieve what is in their interests. And if they are slow at it, then you exercise patience and consideration, etc. And that is what so for me, it has always been not so much about my interests, but about their interests, what is going to be good for them and how what they do and what I'm helping them to do is going to make them progressive. Um that's what that's my initial thoughts in dealing with any of my children.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Do you think that he made um a critical mistake in agreeing to manage the to manage his kids in that musical kind of way and in that in that space? And the reason why I say that is because it's it appears to be common knowledge that he then told his children to call him Joe and not dad, which to me would just be like, Dad, there is no world right where firstly I'm ever telling my children, oh yeah, just call me Sean. Dad, never ever, ever, ever. And if they ever did call me Sean, I'd explain to them, obviously, in love, like this is the first and only warning you're gonna get why you'll never use my government name ever. In this right. And I think with him call telling them to call him Joe, that that kind of leans into almost what you were saying as well. Because it takes away the parental element.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Well, see, this is it. And that was again one of the you know the clear evidence that that give me one second, because I'm looking at your colour and I just want to fix it and then you just flapping up, and we know that these people online see it and they'll have something to say. Of course, they'd wonder why you didn't see. You know, you're trying to embarrass you. Yeah, you know what I mean. But I'm glad you have rectified it. Swiftly. So you're forgiven. Wow, I didn't even realize I don't think wrong. But no, as you say, sorry. Yeah, so so yeah, so I think that again lean into the fact that he sees himself and would virtually, you know, you you have two different era. Let's say that you got his era and you got his children, yeah, different generation. And in his generation, opportunity perhaps were not there, yeah. That he he now find his children have. And doing it himself was to secure him and making sure that he's not outplayed, outdone by anybody else. But that between you and I, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

If you're my child, or like you're my parent, right? Either way, how can there is no part of me that that sits there and thinks, like me in the scenario is it's not important because m all of my energy is focused in making sure you're okay, right? Right. You as the parent or the child, right? That you're okay, that you feel good about what you're doing, that you feel safe in what you're doing, and when you want to leave that world and that space, because it can become all-encompassing. Yeah, that when you come out of that space and you come home, you're coming into a family dynamic where you can just be you can just be Michael.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

You don't have to be the does that make sense then? You see, but you see, this is where you are different in that you would bring balance to that environment or that situation.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Now he clearly was in that balance.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

You get what I mean? And that is one of the reasons why things went to the extreme that it has done, not only on stage or in the public domain, but in private. You know, you know, they were clearly driven um to to be more than the best that they could be, because that's what he felt would guarantee his success in them. Yeah. And that's where I think it led to this extremity. Can I ask you a question, Dad?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

What do you think would have been the impacts on his life, Michael Jackson's life, had he had a more well a more positive and more interactive relationship with his father?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Um, if it was more positive, I believe that a lot of the dysfunctionality that he experienced and he goes through would not be there. Yes, I mean, because what would have been cultured um or cultivated in him would have been not only balance, but genuine love, genuine appreciation for where everyone is, you know, both himself, his siblings, and of course his parents. But because that was not there, everything was out of s out of balance really, then it would have impacted him in a very, very deep way. And it is that um youthful traumas that you would have had to live with, and perhaps couldn't say anything to anybody because of the consequences that would follow him complaining about it. Because if to perform the regime was of such, then one can't begin to imagine what would have been if he if the father felt he was dissing him while he's while he's pursuing his goal.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah. It would have been incredibly intense. That kind of that I want to ask a question. What causes people to lean into abusive control when they feel that influence is slipping? Because it always seems to it always seems to lean into that space. Like you never you very rarely hear that a person, you know, is just so angry, they're like, I'm never gonna see you again, I'm gonna walk off and I'm gonna run away. It always seems to turn into this very like intense, dark, abusive, coercive, controlling kind of behavior. Like, what is it that that sends people into that space? Because I'd even take say you and I, right? I kind of feel like we're the kind of people the minute we realise our presence isn't wanted in a space or a place, we can't get out of there quick enough. You don't want me there, but I'll tell you what, perfect. I'll tell you what, oh see me out. You don't even have to worry about it. But then, and and I know you'll get this in ministry because you you know you've counseled people on so many different levels, but Dad, you see some people, and instead of you know letting go, they're like no, and they're digging the claws in, and they're like, I'm I'm hanging on to this by hook or by crook, and whoever I've got to take down with me.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Where does that come from, Dad? But I think what it what is fine, it's people are victims of in their environment, and you know, that is one of the major, major problems that people go through and they don't realize until it is too late. Now, if grandparents are victim, it's gonna be passed on to parents to parents. And in most cases, from parents, it passes on to the children. And so it's a vicious um cycle, really, that's going on. And um, and because that's what they learn, then it feels right for them to be in that state, uh, that mental and physical state where they think, um, you know, I need to control the narrative, control the environment, control the person because it gives them almost that feel-good, that in-charge thing, and they would have seen it in those who have been victims of their environment. That's what daddy did to to mommy, or that's what mommy did to daddy, or that's what daddy did to the children, uh to whoever they felt were within their scope. So, so that is the is the is the first thing. And that is one of the reasons why when I counsel people, I let them understand that the place where they lay blame is oftentimes not really, you know, because it's usually to the visual, isn't it? Absolutely, and have not taken into account that that person themselves have been victims of their own environment. Yeah. And so you're uh it's almost accusing somebody of something, and they're uh and they're asking you what, you know, it's like, what are you talking about? What you know, I don't know quite what you're talking about. Yeah. You know, uh me abusing you? No, because it feels normal, yeah, because that's what they've grown up with, that's what they have experienced.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, and that is where they became victims. It's a question that, and this will be obviously if there was a million dollar or a million pound question, this would be it. How do you million pound? Okay, we can do a million pounds.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yes, yes, uh prefer the pound. Over the dollar? Yes. That seems a bit prejudicial. And no, the the the dollar is sort of in in in a coma.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Which in a coma, is it?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

You're you're you you you've got um you you understand resurrection, you can want to go and lay hands on I can tell you it it it would take more than a miracle a while to to wake up this dollar. Well, you can see the impact of it um around the world, isn't it? Don't worry, we're gonna get onto that dollar. Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Um, Antonia. So we settle for a pound, huh? We'll settle for the pound. A million-pound question. How do you break such cycles of trauma?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Because that's that's the that's the main thing. Because the other here's sorry, Dan, let me give you a little bit of context behind that. The reason why I say that is because uh after the movie, I I went back and I wanted to watch some old concerts and and shows and stuff, and and dad obviously like I work in the music industry, and I've been blessed enough to see it at like the sharpest point that I'm watching this guy perform, and we're nearly getting on to a couple of decades since he's not been here, right? Dad, I'm telling you, there is nobody that is even remotely close. Like when when you think of all encompassing 360, and and you look at what was produced from a very toxic situation, and I'm watching it, Dad, and I'm looking at it, and I'm like, okay, firstly, it's phenomenal, and there's this one award show, dad, where he basically says, and I'm saying this word for word, he basically says, Um, I love all my brothers, and he names them, and then he says, including Jermaine, which I was a bit like, and dad, he did this at the Motown 25, like anniversary 25th anniversary, so it's not like you've done this in some you know abstract show somewhere, which made me go, it pricked my ears up. Then I'm sitting and I'm thinking to myself, okay, we haven't heard too much from Janet Jackson, his sister. So I would that would suggest to me that you know maybe all's not kind of well because especially when you know the last tributes and stuff were done, she she's after her brother, she's the next most successful dad, easily, and she's not really kind of attached to it like that. And then the guy that was cast to play Michael Jackson was actually Jermaine's son. And I'm almost kind of you know, I'm watching this new iteration of almost Jackson popularity, right? Right, and I'm looking at the brother that potentially he may have had a small issue with. Small.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Well, it could have been I'm just obviously you know, when something like that is so apparent in your in your mind, in your spirit, there's nothing small about it.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

So then, Dad, even like after the grave, right? You've got this, yeah, which is why I was just like, how do you break it, Dad? Because before you know it, it's does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Something that you think has kind of passed is now the thing is that uh a lot of people, in my view, um, saw what he was going through. But because of his wealth, popularity, yeah, and perhaps seclusion, they only few people would have been able to get close to him, and they would be more pondering to his favor than Tel Lutrius' own personal well-being, you know, health, and and and and and all of that. So really and truly, when you find someone in such situation, the the the the way that it has to be broken is not by external force. It has to be internal. And it's uh it's about realization as to who you are. Now, most of us are made up of what people think we are, yeah, and we either like what they are doing in showing who they think we are, yeah, and we would play to that, um, cooperate with it. Or we find the resolution within ourselves. And it is that internal force that I think a lot of people who go through process of victimization don't quite understand. They have been taken away from the power and control that is within themselves. And that is the only way you would have to get it. Hence the reason why when I did a teaching on the transitions, um, that when I have to deal with somebody who has a traumatic past, yeah, you know what I mean, is most people, people's consciousness is back as far as their birth is concerned. Okay. You see. And they judge themselves, they see themselves from that visual that has been shown to them by those who are responsible for their upbringing or for those around them. That is how they see. So if those people in their environment is not astute and if they are in themselves, you know, wicked, um, they're gonna sow those seeds in people. And not only sow it from their perspective, but to condition those people to believe that's what they really are, until their thought becomes his thought. And he's now fighting with the very same question, how did I become like this? You get what I mean? And because he can't find the answer, they accept it and oftentimes, you know, escalate it into some of the things that we see and hear.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

And you think that at that point then you kind of you dive deeper into the projection of the thing? Absolutely. Because you don't even see any way of kind of drawing yourself back out. Yeah. Dad, you said something really interesting that I want to ask you about. How do you how would you then advise a person to reconnect to the I think you call it the controlling power within themselves?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah. They have to recognize, and just as how the Bible gives us this great insight into what to think, yeah, and how not to allow mental conditioning, you know, to get the better of you. To imprison by following these strategies. In the same way, the Bible gives us something fundamental, telling us that we are more than just tangible existence, but we are in essence spiritual expiritual people, and our spirituality did not start when we were born. So it is only when a person can now get beyond the impact of their environment into what was genuinely, sincerely intended for them by God. It's only then they're gonna say, okay, hang on here. I am not looking at myself through your eyes, I'm looking at it through the Creator's eyes. You get what I mean? And the creator's eyes are perfect. Everybody else's eyes are imperfect in one way or the other because it is influenced by their particular circumstances, our environment. You see, so is when you can now say to yourself, before I was born in this horrible, treacherous environment and be exposed to this controlling um person's or environment. What am I? Who am I? And what was my divine purpose? These are questions that so many people are now coming to terms with, you know, who am I? Why am I like this? Who created the environment for it? Was it the schools? Was it the governments? Was it the socials, the society, or was it families who did it? You see, and uh these are the real questions. And most people either are afraid to ask it because they don't really want to hear the truth of it, because people who you see as being very helpful, supportive, friendly, name it, you'd realise that they have been perhaps the culprits.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah. That you know what? I um I had a very interesting like insight as I was watching like towards the end of the movie, and I just couldn't stop hearing this phrase in my head that we become the thing that we lacked. We become the thing that we lack that we lack that we don't have, right? Like so much of so much of Michael Jackson's his legacy and what he tried to do after he'd reached what I call the pinnacle was excuse me, he had such a a desire to spread love, right? And in terms of a lot of the charities that he supported, um, if I'm not wrong, I think he might even be in the Guinness Book of Records for as an artist, the amount of charities that he supported as an artist, um and the types of things that obviously sometimes we'd hear in the press that we'd laugh about, and you'd and you'd see him and how people would sometimes mimic his his persona or how he would be. And I sat and I thought to myself, okay, if he's trying to give the thing that he maybe didn't feel like he always had or didn't have sincerely, because from a young age he's now become a very, very um valuable commodity because from the age of like seven, eight, nine, ten, the minute he opens his mouth, somebody's getting paid, dad. Right? Um, and so I wanted to ask, since you said that everybody asks those, like ask those questions, and I believe they do. I think everybody asks those searching questions in terms of you know the whys of of what they may have gone through or where they want to get to or what they don't understand, how would you then advise them to subscribe to what you were speaking about, the creator's lens of who they are within it? Because it's one thing to ask a question, it's another thing to accept the answer that you receive, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah, well I think that if you genuinely want the answer, yeah, then number one, you're gonna go to where you can genuinely get the answers. And it is a strange phenomenon when if your heart is seeking truth and when you hear truth, yeah, it sits perfectly with you. Because truth is like oil and oil. Yeah, yeah. So it's gonna be gonna go together. And and that is where I think a lot of people don't genuinely, I think, want to accept the fact that if I accept the truth of what I am and where I am, it means changes. It means being different, it means looking at people through a perfect lens, which you're gonna see their imperfection. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's what most people cannot cope with. You see. Now, you take something you make mentioned earlier on about why so many of these super stars seems, and I use the word, scenes, to give support charities. You see, there is a side to that that very few people, except the elites, understand. You know, for a lot of people, it's a great way of money laundering. I wanted to percent that is the first thing. Because having traveled the world and look at what are the values of things, a fraction, I mean, just a fraction of what people um give, had it been channeled to the deserving, we'd have a different world.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

So do you think it was actually it wasn't from the benevolence of wanting to help the world that he gave, you think that they were trying to? Business, it's all business. So you thought so you don't think that he kind of supported those charities, just business? It's all business, I can assure you.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Because apart from you go and join a little orphanage in Timbuktu or in South Africa or in you know Zimbabwe, I mean you're talking about distributing millions. Now millions would mean almost half of most people's you know what they get, what they have to spend for the economy. But can I ask you a question?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

If from the age of 10 or 12 You don't really, I mean you'll you'll carry around money, I guess, at points, but really dad, you'll point at stuff and just go, I think I want that. So the reason why I'm saying this is that because I think what you're saying, I I completely get it. Um I will say it feels very cynical and I'll tell you why it feels cynical. It feels cynical because if I well in fact, actually, actually all right, let me follow the Fred What I'm gonna say and I'm gonna let you know where I just kind of trip my own self out. My first thing was to be like, okay, you're dealing with a person that's had a very sheltered life whilst having a very exposed life, which is that in itself that is enough to send the natural mind a bit woo-woo, right? Um, then you're looking at a person, in my opinion, that's maybe not emotionally developed to a certain space, even though they're business savvy within their industry. So the industry he understands, he may not understand the world, but he understands how this world works, right? His business world. So to me, if I'm sitting there and I'm like, I've now come in and I'm handling the business of Michael Jackson, and I know he loves everything. Now I know the fact that okay, I'm gonna take a good half of what we paid the taxman and I'm gonna take a fraction of that, put it into these charitable causes, say I'm giving this, but I'm gonna make sure that I keep this. Now I can do that and him not necessarily know because you're dealing with a person that owns a publishing company that is worth billions of grand, right? So what I'm asking is I guess I'm asking, are you saying that everybody involved is is is basically plugged into the cynicism of just like no no no, we're just gonna use as a cover, or is it those that have been employed to protect his financial?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

It is it is the the business element who are working it. You know, the There are a couple of people every person need in their lives. Especially if you're potentially a success. One, a lawyer. You need a lawyer. And two, an accountant. An accounter.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

But you're missing the most third and important part. God. Well, I mean. I mean, absolutely. They're the three. They're the three. The one can maybe take out the other two. But you're gonna need them in space if you plan to.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

But in most cases, it's very rare when God is working with those two. Yeah. That's very true. Very true. So there you have you have that situation. Now, their job, part of their job, is to, in principle, save you from the external demands that the world would put on somebody like those who, you know, millions. That's why people have shell companies, offshore companies, and all of that, because they are advised to engage in things in things like that. And the government never gonna get to the point where they check everything, unless you have things like whistleblowers who specifically point to a certain operation or misdemeanor going on within the business. So you're told, because accountants, lawyers and stuff are your top advisors. You know what I mean? True. So so you're told, okay, this is what you need to do if you're going to save whatever you need, you need you need to save. Now, Michael or anybody else like him would not have the time to be sitting counting, you know, you know, so so in a dance studio somewhere, the moon walking up and down the place. And indeed, you know, because whatever he can think or acts. It's done, you know what I mean? So that's so that's where it is. So it then leads back to where does he find his life? Yeah, you know what I mean, and this is where I think a lot of people miss it, right? Why is he so good? You know what I mean? Why every performance is as good as the one before and the one that's to come? Because music, dancing, etc., is where he's that's his escape. When he's on that on that um stage, his father can't get to him. No one can get to him now. Brothers can't get to him, nobody can get to him.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

He's in his element. So the better he is, the longer he gets to stay there and he doesn't have to. Absolutely the point. I get it. I get it. That's really deep. Do you know what? Before we before we move on, and also that was a really masterful answer, Dad. That was brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

I know.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

I love that. Well done. You should not. You should. Um Dad, I had a really and actually this is the first time I'm talking about it. So remember I did um Craig had his 25th anniversary show in April. And congratulations. 25 years of anything is amazing. To see the way people responded to it, Dad, it was it was just brilliant. Um and the venue that we performed at was a place called the Apollo Hammersmith. Dad. I missed so many cues on the first night. Like, so there's things that Laura and I will do, along with the other band members, to to kind of to keep we keep the stage dynamic, right? So it the it's always revolving, whether depending on what song we're doing, whether it's a single stands piece and we're to the side, or you've got the flow of everybody. For the first night that I miss so many of my natural cues to go to the other side. Let me explain why. The last time I was in that building, I was performing two and four Michael Jackson. You're performing two and four Michael Jackson. Okay. I think I remember actually 2001 was the last time I was in that building. Yeah. And that there was a couple of moments right before, like, there was one right before we started, and I don't know if I'll have to ask him, actually, maybe I won't, because that'll be weird. Our sound engineer is a guy called Ash Wilkinson, lovely guy. And I kept looking at him. And the reason I was looking at him, because where he was stood was they they built this canopy for Michael to sit in in the wings dad. And I remember like we got instructions, right? Because at that point, he well, he's he's who he is, and it was just like, right, guys, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this, you can't do that. And I was just like, I remember thinking to myself, I was just like, the only moment that I'm gonna be able to look and see him will be I get 10 seconds where it's dark, and I have to find my spot on the spade on the stage, and then the lights don't come up until the song starts, and the song that I that they asked me to sing was Um Who's Loving You. And it was an amazing performance that like when I say like in terms of the show, like at the time there was some really amazing British I said Show Hama did it, uh Damage did it, and there was I think LCGC, they they had they sung and did it as well, and they I got they got in contact with me because I'd done Stars in Their Eyes. So it was through Adrian Grant and Kerras, his wife at the time. And Dad, I'm I'm standing there, and obviously, with Who's Loving You, it starts with like the Rhodes organ uh keyboard being like blah blah blah blah blah blah and I sat there and in my head I remember they're walking me down and you could hear when he arrived because like he'd gone out to just wave to everybody when he got there, and but he wasn't gonna sat in the audience, they built him a canopy to the side of the stage, right? So he's sitting in this sofa and they've got a big screen TV for him to see what's going on in the stage. And I said to myself, I was like, right, the only point I'm gonna get to really like be like, oh my gosh, that's Michael Jackson, is I've got 10 seconds when I walk to the stage and before the lights come up and they like the truck the song start because the lights can't come up, and I'm like, hey, like, and and the other thing is uh even though I was quite young, I had a very like I could I could execute what you told me to do or what I needed to do, like I could execute it.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Yeah, and you have a determined mind too to go and find Michael Jackson to shake his hand.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

No, no, no, no, no. I mean no no no, I know you so what I did, so what I did was I remember just looking up, and dad, for the whole of that ten seconds, it it almost felt like time stood still. I just remember just staring at him. Exactly. I just remember just staring at him. There you go. And then when the music started, I kicked it and I was able to perform and stuff, but when we did the show for Craig, Dad, there was about four or five times where like I almost stopped and I kept looking over at Ash. And and I'd catch myself and then smile and do something to kind of smooth it out. Otherwise, you'd be like, what's wrong with Sean? Like I know he's kind of playful, but you like what's this is yeah, this is Dad. I um I kept, it's almost like I was I could see that moment. Do you understand what I'm saying? And it was um, I don't know, it was it was quite it was quite strange. The second night I was fine. I I I kind of, you know, you get you get through it and you just kind of go, okay, cool, that was that, and that was cool, but it um yeah, it it hit me a little bit, and then when I went and saw the show, in terms of the whole time period of that, you know, doing those performances and then going to the show and stuff and then everything else coming out, it just yeah, it kind of so did it remind you of your youth a little bit, a little bit. I had a moment where I sat and I thought the last time I was here was 25 years ago, and I'm here celebrating and performing for Craig in a 25 year span. Right, right, right. It almost felt a little bit sliding doors kind of thing, dad. And I'm you I I can see stuff and you know go with it and ignore it, but I was aware that I was feeling something about the moment, if that makes sense. Indeed. Um and and and yeah, I I was like that might the last time I was here, I was I was like 13, 14, that six no, well 2000, was it 2000? Uh yeah, like 16. Yeah, you were in your teens.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Yeah, I was like 15, 16, and yeah, it was sometimes it takes some things to just bring you to a certain reality. And I think that's probably one of them where you're sort of thinking, okay, my goodness, I mean, this is how much years under my belt doing what I do, and with some of the greatest, you know what I mean, from royalties to, as I said, top um uh artists, and you you you you sort of wake up to that thing that okay, where do I go from here?

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Well, the funny thing is, obviously two weeks before that I've completed my counselling course. Do you understand what I'm saying? So it appreciates it. Congratulations. Thank you, Dad. So it it it was really just you kind of have that you know, it it's almost it collides all at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

I think your success is knocking at your door and how fast you opened it.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

You know, I think that's what you're beginning to feel. You the whole inner vibration is pointing you to the fact that it is time. Yeah, you know, you know, it's it's a bit like a a woman being pregnant and she just know slightly weird.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

What is because you just asked me to conceptualize you're conceptualizing something you're giving to me about a woman being pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

I'm like, slightly weird.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

No, no, no, no. You you may not be able to, but I can.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

I'm sure you can, but I'm just trying to say from my end. I've been I've been in that environment. No, no, I know. So I can definitely do that, and um, so yeah, and she just know, you know, mentally, physiologically, she just knows that the time is now, and I think that you are you know feeling that kind of uh birth pain to like I said, yeah, yeah, guys.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me and my dad. You know what? Great episode. You were brilliant, honestly. You were brilliant. Um, please like, subscribe, and share. Um, send to your friends. Also, um, if you want to support in any way, we have our Patreon links that are all down here, so feel free. Um, and also we want to hear about your questions as well. My dad loves it, he loves it, and he's really enjoying your comments and the stuff that you guys are saying. Um, have a great rest of your week, and we will see you next time, so from me, bye bye, and from my dad, Steve Les. As he said, Steve Bless.