Did we just buy a pub?

Welcome to the Pinnicast, a raw, under the hood look at the reality of opening a venue, warts and all. Leon, Tim and Michael from the PAX sit down to document Michael's high-stakes acquisition of The Pinnacle, a legendary pub in North Fitzroy. Michael brings a decade of hospitality expertise, having been involved with acclaimed venues like Bar Liberty, Capitano, and Falco, as well as his current role with PAX. But... this is his first foray into pub ownership.

In this episode, Michael reveals the lightning-fast 24-hour turnaround from viewing the property to signing the deal, driven by his long-held desire for pub stewardship. They provide insights into the financial parameters of the deal, the importance of timing, and the pressure of maintaining a community landmark while modernising its operations for a diverse new audience.

Join us on this journey from idea to opening the doors to The Pinnacle.

Check out Michael's Pinnacle deck here. 

For more information on The Pinnacle, visit thepinnacle.melbourneFor more information on PAX, pax.melbourne 
Follow @pax.melbourne on social media.

Podcast produced by Posterboy Media.

PAX acknowledges the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people as the traditional custodians of the land on which we operate. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to all First Nations People.

Chapters

• 4:47 The two-year pub search
• 10:25 Why timing is everything
• 13:10 History of The Pinnacle
• 21:08 The Investor Deck
• 35:54 Confirming the food partner
• 37:15 Hiring the management team

Transcript

00:00 Leon: Welcome to the Pinnicast! Is that what we're calling it?

00:03 Michael: I believe so.

00:05 Leon: A podcast series about the Pinnacle. I think it's important to note that for a lot of our Packs Hospitality podcast listeners, this is going to be the first time they're hearing from us this year.

00:15 Michael: Yeah, and we've already had a few people hit us up saying, "where the hell are you guys? Are you going season two?"

00:20 Leon: So I'll start by saying massive shoutout to all of the legends that have been listening along since season one. Thanks for being on the journey thus far. Sorry it's been a bit long between drinks. Um, I wanted to do a summer series, but you and Varni wanted to go on holiday.

00:36 Michael: Yeah, god forbid.

00:38 Leon: But here we are. So welcome to the Pinnicast. This is a podcast that is brought to you by Industry Kitchens. Uh, we couldn't have done it without the guys at Posterboy Media as always. And this is a podcast series that's going to be powered by the Packs Hospitality podcast, but it's about a very specific project. So this is a podcast about the Pinnacle, an iconic pub in North Fitzroy. So what do you want to get out of this podcast, Michael? Why—what does it mean to you?

01:12 Michael: I wanted to—originally when we started talking about it—was to just lift the hood on opening a venue and all those things that it entailed. So everything from uh, getting the site to the planning, to the budget, to investment, to operational, to product, media—like all the bits. Um, and we started recording the episodes—when was it, November? Must have been November—to basically take everyone on that journey with us. Felt pretty smooth for most of it.

01:43 Leon: Yeah, I was going to say, how did we do? Right, we're 80% of the way there. Most of the episodes banked, still a couple to record, but based on when we originally said we're going to do this to now, did we nail the brief?

01:58 Michael: In terms of nailing the brief, the podcast?

02:00 Leon: For the podcast.

02:01 Michael: Yeah, yeah, I think we have. Um, I mean, we kind of talk about everything. Like there's no—it's pretty raw. It's very raw. So there'll be some stuff in there that people listen to like, "wow, I can't believe they're talking about that".

02:15 Leon: Yeah, I'm—I'm actually waiting. I was thinking about it on the way here and I was like, do we say something about that person or that thing that's going to be a bit of backlash?

02:24 Michael: Yeah, I'm kind of waiting.

02:25 Leon: It'll be the thing that we just thought was nothing.

02:26 Michael: I know, oh god.

02:28 Leon: But look, I did a pretty good—like I listened to all the episodes and have tried to, you know, edit and cut the bits that we are like, "no, no, we gotta—we can't have that," or we didn't have that person's permission, so we gotta take that out. But I hope I got it all. I mean, it's like listening to us crap on for hours on end, it's not the most like engaging thing for me after I've done it all day. So you know, I didn't do it while being distracted, but you know, might have had a few momentary lapses in concentration.

02:57 Michael: I think it was, yeah, for the project's been mostly smooth sailing. There's been—and then kind of just leading up to settlement was probably where the rough patch comes in. So enjoy that listening in my uh, slight panic attacks. I'm sure there might be a few more of those, we'll see.

03:13 Leon: Yeah, well, still a bit to go. We've got another week and a half. Plenty that could go wrong.

03:20 Michael: Okay, so back to some functionality. I think this show is going to be a really good resource for a lot of people because you're right, you know, we just went for it. It was like jump into each episode and just talk about whatever was on our minds at the time. It's full on, you know, behind the curtain, under the hood, whatever you want to call it. Minimal censorship to anything, so it's lots of sensitive information out there. And look, that was a risk we were willing to take because we wanted it to be as informative as possible. And I think from the context of we wanted this—we want anyone who's looking to open a business, you know, anyone who's looking to actually do this, we want this to be a really good reference point. And I think we envisaged a lot more going wrong that would help people understand just how difficult it is to open a business and how many spanners get thrown, and I don't think we did a good job of that because it's been a very smooth project.

04:17 Michael: Yeah.

04:18 Leon: There's definitely been a few things here and there, there's been some volatility, you know, there was investors that came in that then pulled out, you know, then new investors that came in. There's all these bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that I would say a normal, you know, experience would be reflective of.

04:36 Michael: No.

04:37 Leon: So—but that said though, I don't think that's a big deal. I think it is a good reference point, right? It's like, hey, when you open a business and things go really well and everything's pretty smooth, like this is what it looks like. Now other people out there might not be able to emulate that, but at least when they're going through their shit they know where the reference point is and what they should be going for and what, you know, good might look like or what smooth might look like.

05:04 Michael: Yeah.

05:05 Leon: So anyway, I think that's what it is. We're going to get stuck into it pretty hard. So thanks for coming along for the ride. Please reach out to us, hit us up. We really want to hear from you guys. Hello@packs.melbourne—no .com or .au or anything like that, just hello@packs.melbourne. It's been amazing hearing from everyone over the summer, so please keep reaching out, like we're doing this for all of you guys, so when we hear from you it's really validating. Um, but really hope you enjoy this podcast series. We're going to be dropping one episode a day for 10 days that will coincide with the opening of the doors, hopefully.

05:41 Michael: Hopefully.

05:43 Leon: But if you end up listening to every episode and coming along for the journey, um, we'd love to see you here on the 18th of Feb when we finally open the doors to the public. Thanks for listening.

05:58 Leon: All right, now we going?

06:00 Michael: Yeah.

06:01 Leon: Okay, sick. So I'm—I'm not even going to intro this. I'm just going to start like drilling you.

06:06 Michael: Okay, I'm here.

06:08 Leon: All right, what's the—where are we? What's the date? What day is it today?

06:14 Michael: Ah, that's a good question. It's the 17th of November 2025.

06:21 Leon: Yeah. Can't believe you had to think about the 2025.

06:24 Michael: Don't you every year? I never remember.

06:28 Leon: All right, but we're basically here to interview Michael because he just bought a pub!

06:33 Michael: What?

06:34 Leon: And he's going to open it in Feb, and I want—I want it to take this chance to meet up every week and hit record and pick his brain and go, great, let's do this live, motherfucker, like talk me through it. Otherwise we're always doing these retrospectives, right? We're always doing these like, "here's this great thing I built," and then we're like, "oh, take us back to the start," and then you give us the rose-tinted glasses. We're not doing that.

07:01 Michael: Yeah, what are the glasses tinted with at the moment, Michael?

07:05 Michael: Ah, beer.

07:06 Leon: Beer goggles. No, there's no glasses. We're just going raw. It's like, bro, tell us what's in your head right now and let's get—let's get behind, you know, the facade and understand what—what does it actually take to open a pub? And let's hear from you because I think then we'll also piss ourselves laughing in a year when we listen back to this to see how much you got right.

07:31 Michael: Well I think like you straight away you said what—what does it take to open a pub? It's like the—the answer for me is I don't know yet.

07:40 Leon: Okay.

07:41 Michael: Because I've never done one. I've done other venues, obviously, but this is my first pub.

07:47 Leon: Slightly concerning, hope there's no investors listening to this. What—should we go through the headlines of what it is, where it is?

07:58 Michael: Um, yes.

07:59 Leon: Do you want the details? Or—or maybe a better way to do it is, I think let's—so we're going to do this every week. So starting next week we'll be pretty much like in the block of the last seven days. But this is not just a seven-day thing. This is what, maybe 10 days? How long's it been?

08:18 Michael: This is—yeah, it's been 10 days.

08:19 Leon: 14?

08:20 Michael: It's been 10 days, 14 days maybe.

08:23 Leon: Call it two weeks, right? So let's—just bring us up to speed and how I would love you to explain it is just like, where did it come from?

08:33 Michael: Explain yourself, yeah!

08:34 Leon: Explain yourself. And then I'm going to ask you much harder questions, right? Like taking on the stewardship of a pub is an insane responsibility. Like why the fuck you putting your hand up? Why do you think it should be you? But before we get there, just tell us how we got here.

08:52 Michael: How we got here. So number one, I've been looking for a pub for two years.

08:58 Leon: Okay.

08:59 Michael: Kind of simple. Um, they're really hard to come by, the good ones. And I never actually thought I'd be in a position in terms of two things, like a time position and a financial position to even think about it.

09:12 Leon: When you say timing, it's just like—

09:14 Michael: Everything's timing at the end of the day. It's like, what do I currently have on my plate? What structure—what's my actual job? Like all these things.

09:23 Leon: Obviously.

09:24 Michael: Commitments, yeah. Um, and uh, yeah, so been looking for two years. This pub came up literally via email to another business partner.

09:37 Leon: Wait, do—do you have like email notifications that inform you when things go on the market? How did you find it?

09:44 Michael: Well, this is the strange thing. It's the first venue that I've got near or taken over that has come via an agent.

09:51 Leon: Someone just cold-emailed you?

09:53 Michael: Cold-emailed, yeah. Which usually I would just like go straight to spam.

09:57 Leon: Was it advertised? And he sent you the ad?

10:00 Michael: It was advertised, it was advertised for a minute.

10:03 Leon: Yeah, okay. I was going to say, because you snapped it up quick.

10:06 Michael: We got it—we got it on a—I think a Tuesday or something, looked at it on the Wednesday, and put the offer in that night.

10:14 Leon: When you say "we," that was you and Hannell?

10:17 Michael: Yeah, yeah, at Reed.

10:19 Leon: So he hit you up because of Reed.

10:21 Michael: Yeah, exactly.

10:22 Leon: Cool. Or did he know you as the Bar Liberty guy who did all that other stuff? Or was it just like—

10:27 Michael: No, because of Reed.

10:28 Leon: Right, okay, gotcha.

10:29 Michael: So yeah, we had a look at it and literally I knew just by—obviously there was a lot of people coming through that day, and literally people leaving the pub before us and walking in the second we left to look at it. It was on a closed day so they weren't patrons. And um, I just knew the nature of the deal and the location and thought we've just got to put an offer in and grab it. Um, you know, it's going—people would be like, "well, that's wild, it's half a day to think about it," but knowing—

11:03 Leon: But you've had two years.

11:04 Michael: Yeah, exactly, what I know in terms of like what I was looking for and the other deals I've done or been involved with or seen via my own venues and friends' venues and that sort of stuff. I just kind of know the parameters loosely of like, okay, I'm willing to spend this much based off this, and all those things. Do a pretty quick, you know, analysis of numbers and then make the call.

11:32 Leon: So but—but correct me if I'm wrong. You were effectively going to the viewing not really expecting to have any revelations. You were just going to make sure it wasn't a structural nightmare.

11:42 Michael: Yeah, I was like, do we need to do any work?

11:45 Leon: Yeah, there wasn't any obvious reasons to not do it.

11:47 Michael: Instead of, you know, a few hundred grand of investment, is it going to be half a mil? A mil? Totally different kettle of fish.

11:58 Leon: Gotcha. What number would it have—would it have ruled it out for you? Total?

12:03 Michael: Yeah, 400k.

12:04 Leon: Over—anything over 400 you would have been like, "no, see you later".

12:07 Michael: No, see you later.

12:10 Leon: But is that—is that specific to this location? Or—

12:13 Michael: Uh, it's definitely got to do with the location, but probably in general, just in terms of where my appetite's at, where I know the industry's at, what capital is out there—all those factors come into play. And for me it's like, yeah, we could have had a crack at probably the pub next door, which we'll get into location—we haven't even said that yet—which is not operational right now because it's run down and it's much bigger. But the capital investment would have been way more, the risk goes right up with the personnel and, you know, all the way down the line.

12:51 Leon: So this is—the risk-to-reward ratio goes up.

12:53 Michael: Exactly, exactly. And to me, like I said at the start, being my first pub, probably a good idea not to go for the thousand-patron venue.

13:04 Leon: Nice, nice, okay. I like it. So you and Hannell went and checked it out. Hannell second-guessed it, right? As he—as he likes to do. I can say that because I like giving him shit. But what—why did you decide to still keep going even though he was like, "no, I'm not feeling it"? Or whatever he said, sorry, whatever he said.

13:28 Michael: Well, I think for me, I've wanted one for two years anyway and longer than that, but seriously, I've wanted one for longer, but been looking for two years. Um, and for Mark and Beck it's like, Reed House is only a year old.

13:42 Leon: Sure.

13:43 Michael: So it comes back again to timing. Timing's not quite right. Do I think they're probably still the perfect people to do it? Probably.

13:52 Leon: Of course.

13:53 Michael: But you definitely say that about them doing anything.

13:56 Leon: Exactly.

13:56 Michael: But it's like, timing's not right and that's totally fine. There'll be other venues and sites and pubs and that sort of stuff. So um, yeah, for me I look at it like, well, it's the right venue for me in terms of timing, size, investment, and I know that I can work it within those parameters to have an outcome in a certain period to open the thing we want to open.

14:22 Leon: Yeah, okay. And—and also key was the commitments. You're at a point right now where you can do this properly.

14:30 Michael: Exactly. Um, you know, with having Packs as a—a business that I'm, you know, full-time employee now, which is amazing to say with you. Um, to have that operational for the last, let's say six months been going on, but the last 14, 15 weeks has been our like full-time job. And knowing that I've got the support of the Packs team now. Yeah, that for me—and this is not an advertisement for Packs, even though it's the Packs podcast.

15:01 Leon: And you own it.

15:02 Michael: And I own that as well. Small disclosure.

15:04 Leon: But can I just say though, just to be super clear, like this is not a Packs project. No, Packs isn't—Packs isn't doing this. This is you—you doing this, and Packs will obviously, you know, support as a client if you need—if you want us.

15:20 Leon: Oh, I'm going to have to really see a proposal first and work out if it's—if it's within my budget.

15:26 Michael: It's definitely within your budget. We've got—we've already got three pubs on our client list at the moment, sorry. Um, okay, so then, all right, great. I think that brings us pretty well up to speed.

15:38 Leon: Except one thing I'd love to touch on a bit more is, you know, what I think is cool how you clinched it, right? That was pretty sick because you had a lot of interest, it was advertised for a minute, you go check it out, there's already lines of people that want to check it out, right? It's like a freaking rental property in the inner city, right? And from what I understood—I might have just completely fabricated this—but the—for the agent it was like there was people that were interested that probably fit the bill a little bit better than you, but when it was like, "hey, this is what I need to see," they were all like, "yeah, we could get you that in two weeks," whereas you were just like that night, bang, there's a deck.

16:20 Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I think they looked at the—timing's obviously big for agents, but also the requirements around a plan for it and—I was able to give that to them seriously quickly. Um, which is great. And then over the due diligence period, which has been less than two weeks now, we've been able to provide everything that they've required, right? And I think just having that ability and, again, time to put into it and headspace um, has been the difference between us actually moving ahead, you know, really moving ahead with it or not, or them going to a different buyer.

16:59 Leon: Yeah. Okay, awesome. Where is it? Tell us all about it.

17:04 Michael: It's the Pinnacle—yeah, the Pinny—so Fitzroy Pinnacle um, in North Fitzroy. Or Fitzroy North, whoof, say that. I just said North Fitzroy. Um, yeah, Fitzroy North. Now everyone's opened this joint with a target on your back. Um, I think interestingly for the building, it has only been a pub for 25 years. Yeah, which is crazy. I never thought. I mean I was like nostalgically like love the Pinny, right? Went there, probably spent so much time and money there, never that blew my mind when you told me that.

17:39 Michael: Well I thought the same. Yeah. I would have said 100 years.

17:43 Leon: Yeah. I was like yeah definitely at least 80. Fuck. I mean how the fuck did they get that toilet cleared past council after the year 2000?

17:54 Michael: I shan't be showing them that again when we reopen. Um, yeah and you know before that it was interesting reading the history seeing it wasn't a pub for that long. Like any other venue, if you were to say that restaurant has been a restaurant for 25 years you'd be like, "ah that's ages".

18:12 Leon: Yeah true.

18:13 Michael: But because it's a pub you're like, "oh it's quite young," which I find really funny because they've got such longevity generally in those buildings, such a beautiful old building. But yeah it was a post office um before and then um—

18:29 Leon: Was it an antique shop before?

18:31 Michael: It was an antique shop before that. Oh wow.

18:32 Michael: It was post office and then a land office.

18:35 Michael: Yeah the land office is interesting so people used to go up to the the tower up the very top, the third level, and point out what plot of land they wanted in the area.

18:46 Leon: Epic.

18:46 Michael: Right? So this is late 1800s when it was built. So it would have been fucking bush there.

18:51 Leon: Yeah awesome.

18:53 Michael: 1886. It's a long time. So beautiful old building, it's such an iconic little corner.

19:01 Leon: That Peter Montes guy was a smart one, he probably just went, "oh that one right in front of me," nailed it.

19:07 Michael: Yeah.

19:08 Michael: Mate we didn't have to go up to the tower to point it out.

19:10 Michael: The Italians straight off the boat: "ah no I know what I want mate, don't worry about it, I don't need the fucking tower".

19:16 Leon: Yeah.

19:16 Michael: "Ugh see where the two main roads are? That's mine".

19:20 Leon: 80 years later I'm going to build apartments. Loved it.

19:24 Michael: Um, yeah nailed it. So yeah that corner, it gets such high traffic and everyone, so many people that um drive through Melbourne and head north drive past it and such a great opportunity to get to—you touched on before—take custodianship of of such a cool site.

19:42 Leon: So before I drill you on why you think, you know, that's a responsibility that you are fit to take on, I'd love to also just point out with the Pinny, it's one of those really interesting pubs because if you're in that age bracket—like our age bracket—I don't know, are you in an age bracket?

19:59 Michael: Your age bracket?

19:59 Leon: You just—how old are you now?

20:03 Michael: 35.

20:04 Leon: Okay, so you just sneak in. Fuck. Just. In some ways you're way over that age bracket so—

20:11 Michael: Okay.

20:11 Leon: But I think like, you know, for anyone who's in that maybe late 30s, you know, mid-40s sort of range and maybe even beyond, everyone's got a good memory of the Pinny. Yeah. Like everyone who's had a good—either like shitloads of memories or at least one good memory of just having a good session either in the beer garden or on a winter's day in the front bar, you know, eating some good food, you know, just nice cozy kind of vibes. And it's just—it has just been great at that. Like everyone's got a good memory of it. So with that said, right? Like we said, one of the most important things with a pub given its history is taking on that role of, "man, I'm going to be the custodian for this". You know? How do you—how are you going to tackle that? Because you want people to be able to walk in and go, "ah yeah, this is the Pinny I remember," but also the floor's not sticky anymore.

21:10 Michael: Is that—is that possible?

21:13 Leon: Well—walking in—yeah well let's ask.

21:16 Michael: It's not about replication. Replicating, is that a word? Yeah replicating. I don't want to replicate what has been other than the idea of a place that anyone go to.

21:29 Leon: Sure.

21:29 Michael: Which what a pub should be in my eyes.

21:33 Leon: So you don't want to go in with a concept of like, "hey we're going to do you know, Bar Capito but in a pub".

21:40 Michael: No, well yeah that's a good example of where I wouldn't go. But I think the biggest thing is like take things that were have been great about that venue for so long and all the things you just said, take the stickiness out because we know that's what it needs to be done. Um and for me create a space that whether you're 35 or in your late 40s like you guys um or you have families or you want to take your parents somewhere or some mates to watch the footy that's the place you go. And you feel comfortable with that and it's not the idea of we're just going to tick some boxes to make ourselves think that we're ticking those boxes for those people. It's like you actually do it. So it's about creating a space that isn't full of surprises, still great, delicious, really high benchmark food and bev but in a setting that's totally usable by a far—like a wide-reaching audience.

22:42 Michael: It's a public house.

22:43 Michael: Exactly. It's a public house, that's where the the name came from rather than the idea of—when we do restaurants is that we—sometimes we say these sort of things, really hard to execute it when you're conceptually coming up with you know, "I'm opening a wine bar and it's for everyone". It's like yeah it's for everyone within a certain demographic versus a public house where it actually should be for everyone. There's a kid—there's a kids' menu, there's a cheap pot at a certain time, there's steak night, there's all these these things that can attract a really wide range and group of people and when when they're there they actually feel welcome. I'm not just doing the things on paper through advertising and steak nights and whatever else to bring people in, when they're there they're like, "holy shit".

23:33 Leon: Is that your memory of the Pinny though Leon? It was for everyone?

23:38 Leon: Yeah 100%. For sure.

23:41 Michael: Yeah cool.

23:42 Michael: Because I've never—I'd never been until maybe three years ago was my first time.

23:48 Leon: Ah okay. Different chapter. I don't know if I remember there being like kids there because I just don't think the—

23:59 Michael: The music didn't—

24:00 Leon: Well there was no live music back then either.

24:03 Michael: True.

24:03 Leon: Yeah it was just more that I just don't think the—I think the demographic in the area was not what it is now.

24:11 Michael: True.

24:12 Leon: So I just don't remember a lot of kids being anywhere apart from like East Brunswick and shit like that. So anyway, yeah I think it makes sense what you're saying and I think you know if anyone's got the nous and the ability to be able to pull that off it's—I'm putting my money on you. But I think that's the rest of the series to talk about the concept of the pub and what it's going to be. I think what I'd like to spend more time on is in this particular increment on the timeline. Let's go through some of your stresses and some of your highlights.

24:46 Michael: Sure.

24:47 Leon: (Sponsor Message)

25:52 Leon: Let's go through some of your stresses and some of your highlights.

25:56 Michael: Sure.

25:57 Leon: So since the moment you put that deposit down and said I'm doing this, tell me two things that you've been pleasantly surprised by.

26:07 Michael: Ah pleasantly surprised. I mean it was pleasant but maybe not so much of a surprise but um, I think the general consensus from the inner circle of people I've spoken to has just been like, "fuck yeah".

26:22 Leon: Yeah totally.

26:22 Michael: Instead of every other time I've said I'm going to open a venue people are like, "uh okay mate, yeah, here we go again".

26:30 Michael: I mean we got it yelled out of a car from Campbell Burton who happened to spot us standing at the front. "You should take it! You guys should take the pub!" And we were like fucking sprung. I mean if you stand in front of the Pinny on a you know busy day Monday afternoon chances are a bunch of people you know are going to drive past. And it just happened to be the guy with the loudest voice Campbell. It was pretty hilarious.

27:00 Leon: So anyway peer validation.

27:01 Michael: Peer validation just because you know we're not the only ones looking at the industry right now and going what's working what's not what feels right and this feels right and with with where I've you look at the venues I've been part of or owned over the last 10 years the progression is pretty obvious. It's like generally it's going in a progression of more accessibility. You think about Bar Liberty to Capitano to Falco.

27:39 Leon: Well Capitano was a pub.

27:41 Michael: Exactly you know for a second we were going to—like Casey actually really wanted to turn it back into a pub.

27:47 Leon: No way.

27:48 Michael: Probably should have done it. However Capitano is successful so we won't complain about that.

27:54 Leon: Yeah so obviously in that trajectory it's always been about more accessibility not less.

28:00 Leon: Got it.

28:01 Michael: And then obviously I'm involved with Reed House less so than the other venues I've been in but even then we think about accessibility a lot for Reed.

28:10 Leon: More accessible yeah.

28:11 Michael: And it's very accessible for the city as well. Um so then thinking about that next step being pub it's like yeah it's heading in that direction. And I think that's just life like for me personally looking at where I'm at got three kids. The places that I tend to frequent if I go out ever it's going to be a probably a pub-like setting.

28:34 Leon: Well will your next one be like a Pizza Hut or bring that back?

28:38 Michael: Well my this is—I don't want to get sidetracked—however my eldest daughter Maya we talk about frequently opening a kids' restaurant together.

28:48 Leon: Ooh.

28:48 Michael: And she really wants to open this idea of like—because you know how they've got those you know Pizza Planet and Toy Story. Well basically that. But think about where where kids have parties now—like Bounce and all these crazy places—the food fucking sucks, the parents don't want to be there, you can't get a good coffee. So imagine like an awesome place where has like really good food and bev.

29:14 Leon: It would crush.

29:15 Michael: Just just make it like skateboard focused and we're good. Anyway digressing.

29:21 Michael: We got a note—I've written down that we need to talk about the kids' menu at some point because I think that is crucial because there's basically the three dishes that you would always go to.

29:32 Leon: It's always fish and chips, small burger and pasta. That's usually the three.

29:38 Michael: But anyway pleasantly surprised everyone validated it. Right I guess that probably answers both of those two pleasantly surprised things.

29:48 Leon: What was the second one? No you said two—two things that surprised you.

29:52 Michael: Yeah but which were they?

29:53 Leon: One was the peer validation.

29:55 Michael: One was the peer validation but I mean a second one would be I guess for me the ease in which it was to pull this together.

29:55 Michael: Yeah that's a good point. Just from my brain and people around me brain to be like it was just like dot to dot. I was like doo doo doo doo doo it's been 14—less—bit less than 14 days and we've been able to pull together an offer, acceptance, due diligence, a brand deck, values, investor talks are already underway like really quick. And obviously that's like a privilege to our—you know—my experience and the people around me experience and I have to obviously state that not everyone has that at their fingertips. But I've also been through this a few times and this is by far being the "quote unquote" easiest because it's just felt very natural. Not because it will be easy to operate or it will be easy to make money there or any of those things but it just feels the most natural.

31:00 Leon: It is it is testament to your ability to to do things and not get—not stumble—when things are like hard or difficult or or an opportunity to say no or to be swayed easily by the problem that's that's in front of you and that's—

31:16 Michael: Yeah I think for me I once I make a decision about something a lot of the time it's because I've done the background work in my own head as to what will stop me to—like you've already said Leon like "what dollar number would that be for you to say no"—like already done had that thought process. So if I've ticked all those things a bump in the road is just a small bump in the road to actually opening or a success. Rather than being like, "ugh, I have to reconsider this".

31:47 Leon: Yeah, but that's debilitating for some people though, isn't it?

31:51 Michael: I know. Yeah. I'm also just a good idiot.

31:55 Leon: All right so switching over then—that's a good segue—tell me about the stresses because it's kind of weird, right? Like I—to one point I'd say—you know—in—fair—mate—take nothing away from you, it's been exceptional to watch you put this together. But you also haven't had any big curveballs yet.

32:10 Michael: No.

32:10 Leon: So it's like, okay cool like that's great you're on track right you're on pace. Um but then what have been some of the stresses of the first you know 10 days and and also maybe sorry I'll shut up and leave you with a question in a second but you've basically I would say what you've achieved in the 10-day period is probably what a standard critical path would contain on a timeline of maybe six weeks. Yeah sure. So it's all come together super quick. Um but there's gotta be—what's keeping you up at night so far at this juncture?

32:44 Michael: Um apart from my three children.

32:47 Leon: One dad. Great.

32:49 Michael: Not a great deal to be honest. Um for us now the key things we're bringing together are a food partner. Which we've started those conversations and I'm con—

32:59 Leon: Can you talk about that?

33:01 Michael: Um we're talking to a few people. And I won't say any names—

33:04 Leon: Episode 2!

33:05 Michael: —just in case they don't go ahead and then we have to backtrack once I say a name because I've called out Hannell.

33:12 Michael: Yeah fuck it Hannell will be all right about that. Um ah I mean we're talking to a few people and they're all like of different experience levels and um the thought processes are different for each person like it's not just a cookie cutter "this is what we want and need". All those things.

33:34 Leon: How—how close are you to landing on someone?

33:37 Michael: I reckon we're pretty close.

33:39 Leon: Oh good.

33:39 Michael: Yeah pretty close. But that's not a stress that's just like it just will happen it just timing.

33:46 Leon: Maybe I'll use a different framing for this because it's not—it's not keeping you up at night in the grand scheme of things, right? Like on a scale of all the shit you've dealt with in your life like nothing is even close.

33:57 Michael: Ah okay I know. Sorry. I know for me the the timing has been amazing. That's why we've been able to progress so quick which has helped. However the time of year is hard. So the way I'm thinking like I'm getting shit ready before Christmas even though we won't be opening until mid Feb because even though we're not doing a big fit-out there's some key things that are going to change in the pub like gonna put some bench seats in a booth gonna redo the bar top. Like there's simple things but because if we don't get them cut and ready by the end of the year builders go on holiday and don't come back until mid Jan. Right? So if we wait until then suddenly it's only a few weeks until opening and takeover we're way behind the eight-ball.

34:40 Leon: And they come with—they come back with a backlog.

34:43 Michael: Exactly. Glassware getting printed before the end of the year brand being complete by the end of the year. Um like all these key things that help you move quickly when you take over the space can be done now but because of the time of year that's probably my only stress is like—

35:01 Leon: Got it.

35:01 Michael: —but I—it's a known stress so I'm just like right lining these things up. So week before Christmas we're done and we're kind of waiting now until we hit Jan and takeover end of Jan start of Feb and we'll have all the shit ready.

35:17 Leon: What—okay what about capital?

35:20 Michael: Um capital like we're raising—

35:22 Leon: What's it going to cost you to do this?

35:24 Michael: Total in including everything is about 350 grand including some working capital out the other side of opening.

35:32 Leon: Yeah so 350.

35:34 Leon: So 350 and where are you going to get it?

35:36 Michael: Um external investors. Um so we're already talking to let's say four or five people bit more. And again like it sounds crazy I think a lot of people stress about this but just because of the the people we're talking to and our experience—like my experience—and who I'm talking to like I—the confidence is there. So I'm not like freaking out.

35:58 Leon: Well it's also the numbers just really stack up. Like the numbers—yeah exactly. You talk about making it easy like you putting—putting—being able to put all that work into it so quickly has felt right because it is right. Rather than being like, "whoa we have to spend 700 grand to get this open but we want to retain 50% of this business". No that doesn't—it doesn't stack up.

36:20 Michael: I think everyone would build that deck.

36:22 Michael: Yeah.

36:23 Michael: You know how many—you know how many decks I've seen that are that and you're like, "bro like don't even bother don't even send this out to anyone".

36:31 Leon: I mean what I think's cool though is that you know for someone who wants to be investing in a pub this is like the way to do it because—

36:39 Michael: Oh should we release this now? Instead of next year when we need—

36:43 Leon: No.

36:44 Michael: —the money.

36:45 Michael: By the time this comes out we would have got all the money already Leon.

36:49 Leon: No no no but that's the thing you—getting the money is going to be not hard. Right? If anything you've—you've already got more people than you can—you're going to have to choose right?

36:58 Michael: Totally.

36:58 Michael: So which is a nice place to be.

37:00 Leon: Yeah it's a great—it's a great place to be because you—you effectively you—will so of that 350 you basically looking to bring in three different investors—

37:10 Michael: Yeah.

37:11 Leon: —I'm just going off the deck that you showed me—you know you looking to bring in three investors at 120 each.

37:18 Michael: Yeah.

37:19 Leon: Yeah. And they get like 13 point something percent each. And if—and if someone came along and said, "hey man I'll put in you know double and give me a bigger stake," you'd be open to that?

37:29 Michael: Yeah 100%.

37:31 Leon: Okay but but ideally it would be just—because I just like the idea of like okay it's 120 in and I get 13%. That that works for me. I think if it's like "hey I'll put in 240 and I want 26 point something" I don't know it—that risk-to-reward ratio changes a little bit.

37:48 Michael: Yeah the numbers—the numbers all go up. Not that—not that it has—it has a material impact in any way on the deal itself right. Like the the the due diligence you've done doesn't get impacted by whether one person's risk appetite is you know 1 or 1.8. But basically what I'm getting at is that like you've got three that you want in. The only thing I think is not super compelling—yeah—is that in your forecasts—

38:15 Michael: Uh-huh.

38:16 Leon: —which look—again—amazing—which I think—I don't know did you do that all or did Kate have something to do with it?

38:23 Michael: Hey! I did all—I did all the forecasting, thank you. Kate did the—Kate did the costs and verified and my prediction was 1% in the outgoings.

38:36 Michael: Different—

38:37 Leon: Okay you you're a freak with that stuff.

38:40 Leon: (Sponsor Message)

39:46 Leon: Okay so with that though like you know you sort of have aim—it it looks like it's probably going to do very conservatively speaking it's probably going to do about 240 a year in net profit which is pretty attractive. Yeah. But for an investor who's like "hey I'm putting in 120"—

40:02 Michael: Yeah.

40:03 Michael: —take a few years to pay down.

40:05 Leon: It's going to take what four years to pay that back?

40:07 Michael: Uh if we're divvying out equally across everyone, yes.

40:11 Leon: Yeah so so you've—so you've also included a device within that that says "hey we'll go um extra cut of divvies for the investors so they can reduce that payback liability".

40:24 Michael: Yeah absolutely.

40:25 Leon: Yeah okay. So it's tidy. It's super tidy. Right? So you're not going to have really any issues getting the money. And it's also you talk about the forecast like I've—like dive into that—I've gone really conservative. Yeah yeah exactly. Like I've based it off some pretty low days and nights. I've based it off less covers than we can actually do. Like I always do that because it's like okay you lose the whole courtyard for a whole winter.

40:48 Michael: Yeah true.

40:49 Michael: Even though you don't. Because people still sit out there—

40:51 Leon: Yeah.

40:51 Michael: —drink beers and stuff. So pretend you do. Can you make it work based on two-thirds of your capacity? Can you make it work on 2% higher wage costs than you think you you can achieve? Like can you can you can you? You put all those things in there off a bad day can you still make this business work? Rather than on a sunny day is the only way we can make it work. Because then the the adjustment suddenly happens and you're like, "oh my god we are so far off making this happen". And like someone told me a long time—I think it was you actually—was um, you should always look at a venue on a rainy day. Was it you?

41:25 Michael: Probably I don't know I say a lot of shit.

41:28 Michael: Rather than like how it's a sunny day how great the light is. All this sort of stuff.

41:33 Michael: Yeah.

41:34 Michael: And I kind of—I think about that physically of going to a venue. Also think about that in building a forecast. Yeah fair enough. A rainy shit day—um we're in Melbourne after all—how bad can it get? Can you make it work?

41:46 Leon: Yeah I like that. Okay. Like that just because I said it.

41:51 Michael: Yeah.

41:51 Michael: I won't take that away from you.

41:53 Michael: We're at 30 minutes.

41:55 Leon: Bang. Um oh no I just don't feel like you answered that question properly as a—

42:01 Michael: Go on one more.

42:02 Leon: —stress. No no no that was good. Did that. And and to cover that like I'm—let's just keep this theme going right. So next week we'll have two highlights and what's keeping you up at night. And I'm really looking forward to the stressful ones just escalating.

42:18 Michael: Yeah.

42:19 Michael: It's Christmas! We have no money and investors!

42:25 Leon: No I—I just coming back to that whole thing about you know taking on the responsibility of being the steward and custodian of a pub. It's like being a captain of Australia right. Like what's your—what's your stewardship? Like why—why are you the guy to put your hand up and do that?

24:43 Michael: Right. And this is where I started to answer the question wasn't it was around accessibility that was one point that I was I kind of getting to with my previous venues about opening the door literally to more people in the community that that have the ability to come into your venue. Number one. Like that's my my MO now. And then number two like over the last 10 years everything I've done has been about community. Whether it's been specific to hospitality or through Worksmith and Crow Assembly and all that sort of stuff.

43:24 Leon: Scarf.

43:24 Michael: Scarf. Yeah. Like I'm on the board of Scarf um community and that's been a big part of my life and will continue to be. And for me a pub really encapsulates all those things. And even the venues I had previously has been so much about the immediate community around them. But it—I for me they've never been quite enough. For me maybe Falco probably landed it in terms of like accessibility but also usability like each week people coming through each sometimes daily people coming. That's awesome. And having that—take those two ideas together around that immediate community around the physical venue and the idea of what community means to people in their lives. Like that's where I want to sit. And with my experience over the last 10 years in those spaces I feel like a pub is right for me. And it's the it's the right sensible next step to fulfill what it is for me—you know—to fulfill my vision of what I want to do in hospitality and the community.

44:38 Leon: Pretty sick answer I have to say. I was hoping there'd be some holes I could pick there but—ba-ba-bow—no I mean obviously if I was on the board of of Fitzroy North and we were talking about you know revitalising the Pinny to be a community player I'd be like, "yeah that's the guy".

44:56 Michael: Thank you.

44:57 Leon: No no stress. Um all right wrap it up.

45:01 Michael: That's it!

45:01 Leon: Move moving forward we just—yeah we'll keep this—keep this going.

45:06 Michael: Yeah.

45:06 Leon: I think the only one thing—sorry—just last thing last thing.

45:10 Michael: Last last last last.

45:11 Leon: —is that you're—what you trying to—so 13 days left in November. How many more things do you need to get done to suit your timeline?

45:21 Michael: Uh I need to confirm the food partner. Um—

45:26 Leon: Didn't—didn't you say you want to confirm them in December?

45:29 Michael: Yeah but that's like—

45:31 Michael: But you—

45:31 Leon: You ahead of schedule at the moment?

45:33 Michael: I'm a bit—I'm always ahead. Um December's a long month at the end of the day.

45:39 Michael: Sure.

45:39 Michael: But it's also—gets eaten up real quick. Um so I want the food person essentially done. I want to confirm the build um costs and all those those bits and pieces. They're pretty close already. Um like I've already in a last—on top of all the stuff we've spoken about—in a last 10 days I've already had um my architect come through even though we're not doing drawings just to check it out get help paint colours all that sort of stuff. Um yeah in the next few weeks confirm those trades who will be coming in for when we take over. Um confirming paint colour all those little bits and pieces will happen over the next 13 days.

46:21 Leon: Window frames.

46:22 Michael: Window frames painted yeah. Um but then also starting to look at the front-of-house manager as well.

46:30 Leon: Yep.

46:30 Michael: Um—

46:31 Leon: Do you want to do that this soon? Before November's finished?

46:34 Michael: You think about the timing. Yeah true. You come to the time of year. Most people will have a really busy December for sure lots of people take a couple weeks off in Jan even in hospo. And then and then you're on. And if they're a—if they're of manager position they're going to have to give a few months' notice. Yeah. So um a lot of the time when I've advertised for these higher-level roles it's always been someone I know or someone that knows someone. Great. So I just need to get the note out—

47:04 Leon: Yeah.

47:04 Michael: —out to mates and um socials and that sort of thing and see who comes out of the woodwork. So that's kind of the next couple weeks.

47:11 Leon: Okay. Awesome bro. Looking forward to riding shotgun with you on this.

47:16 Michael: Yee-haw!

47:17 Michael: Thank you. Cheers.

47:19 Leon: Cheers.

47:20 Leon: Thank you so much for listening to the Pinnicast. Um we're super stoked to be bringing this series to you so we hope you found it informative. We would love to hear from you. We'd love some feedback any thoughts you have around how we're going about it would be really really welcome. So hit us up at hello@packs.melbourne and we will definitely be all ears and we'll respond. Lastly just want to say massive thanks again to Industry Kitchens to Posterboy Media. Without them none of this would be possible so yeah massive massive shoutout. I really hope you guys enjoyed the first episode and we're really looking forward to bringing you more. It's going to be one every day for the next nine days. Cheers.