Why is every pub maroon?

In this fourth episode of the Pinnicast, Michael shares the surprising ease of his technical setup, including a modern switchboard that avoids common startup nightmares. The conversation dives deep into the psychology of pub branding - explaining why maroon remains the industry’s most trusted colour - and the financial burden of bank guarantees for small business owners. Leon raises the concept of "temptation bundling," proposing a "Productive Pints" initiative to encourage community planning at the pub. Additionally, the duo discuss the removal of the live music stage to prioritise a high-quality dining experience, as well as focusing on the meticulous details that cater to the most discerning 2% of patrons.

6 days to go until the Pinnacle opens!

Join us on this journey from idea to opening the doors to The Pinnacle.

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For more information on The Pinnacle, visit thepinnacle.melbourneFor more information on PAX, pax.melbourne 
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Podcast produced by Posterboy Media.

PAX acknowledges the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people as the traditional custodians of the land on which we operate. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to all First Nations People.

Chapters

• 6:15 The reality of bank guarantees
• 12:22 Why maroon dominates pub branding
• 18:53 Deciding to remove live music
• 27:01 Balancing ingredient quality and pricing
• 40:15 Introducing the "Productive Pints" concept

Transcript

0:00 Leon: Hey everyone, Leon here again, and this is episode four. That’s right, only six days to go and six more episodes. Today’s show is all about branding mostly. We do talk about some fun stuff like bank guarantees too and somehow I find a way to weave in the concept of temptation bundling for productivity. If you are enjoying this series, please let us know by emailing us at hello@paxs.melbourne. If you could share the show with your peoples, that would be very rad of you too. Okay, here we go with episode four. Hope you enjoyed it.
0:44 Leon: Am I... I didn’t even... is this on?
0:46 Michael: I think... I think I’m... you just said "let’s hit record," so I pressed the button panicking, so I think we are.
0:52 Leon: Alright, anyway, let’s start an episode. Ready to rock? I think this week’s episode’s going to be pretty dry and pretty chill, but I’m actually pretty happy about it because I was just... it’s funny, we hadn’t listened back to any of the previous episodes until this week. I only did it yesterday.
1:09 Michael: Me too.
1:10 Leon: And the thing that I thought was really ironic was as I was listening back to it, like, I’m like, "Oh man, we are not achieving our purpose because what we wanted to achieve is that we’re giving people a really live view as to all the things that happen when you’re trying to open a business." And nothing’s gone wrong so far.
1:25 Michael: No.
1:26 Leon: This has been not that. There’s been no... it’s just been like every time I catch up with you, it’s like, "Oh yeah, we got all our money now. Oh yeah, you know, the chef’s involved, we got the VM, the..." Like, it’s just... this is not how businesses open.
1:41 Michael: No. It’s... I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s unfair advantage through experience, but I said to you the other day, "It’s all too good, and I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop."
1:52 Leon: It’ll happen. Something’s going to come. Day one, COVID comes back. Oh, fuck, don’t start that.
1:59 Michael: I’ve got my... I’m going to have my mate look at the... the beer lines in the next week or so. And maybe it’ll be that. I don’t know. But there shouldn’t be, because all the units are... all the cooling units are less than two years old.
2:12 Leon: Okay, when you rang me yesterday and you were like, "Oh yeah, I just had the meeting with the sparky." And I was like, "Oh, how’d it go?" And you were like, "No, we’ve actually got heaps of room. Like, we could have four more ovens if we wanted." Who the fuck gets that when they... it’s a new switchboard!
2:28 Michael: It’s a new switchboard. And I remember John, the current owner, said to me in now one of our handover meetings, he... when we did the bit of a data dump, he’s like, "Yeah, the switchboard got updated five years ago."
2:41 Leon: What the hell, dude?
2:42 Michael: Because I had one... the one before that was the old school like copper... you know those black box things? And it’s already been done and there’s heaps of room in it.
2:52 Leon: Oh my god.
2:53 Michael: And the oven's isolated separately. It’ll be the toilets.
2:57 Leon: The toilets are cooked. Yeah, they are.
3:03 Michael: Maybe it'll be... I don't know. But to my point, this is not normal.
3:09 Leon: No.
3:10 Michael: Businesses don't open like this.
3:12 Leon: So...
3:13 Michael: So this will be the final episode of the... You know what I think a big part of it is? This is the first time that I've opened a venue where I've actually had time.
3:22 Leon: Ah.
3:23 Michael: And I mean time in the sense of from here until opening or when we... when we viewed it, to when we're actually going to open it is a decent amount of time.
3:32 Leon: Right.
3:33 Michael: I mean, some people would argue that three months isn't, but to me it is. But also I've just been afforded the ability to do it because of the way we've set up Paxs.
3:43 Leon: Sure.
3:44 Michael: And it’s like we’ve got clients and we’re running around and we’re working with lots of people but, I mean, with the support...
3:50 Leon: Balance is great.
3:51 Michael: Yeah, with the support of you and the rest of the Paxs team just means that I’m able to section off good chunks of time to do it. And unfortunately... like, I know that’s a privilege. Definitely. Because it means, you know, I could do this if our workload was double on the client side, we’d be fine.
4:10 Leon: Sure.
4:11 Michael: But I’d have way less time to do the pub stuff. And it’s just been the ability to shut, you know, shut my mind off to other things for three hours and do a planning session. And that sort of stuff. Whereas previously when I’ve owned venues before, I’ve been just in the fire so much that it’s like you quickly do something and then you’re back in it. And then you just jump out, do something and you’re back in.
4:33 Leon: But there’s so many little funny parts of it, right? Like even if you look at like the two big things that have happened in the last couple weeks where it’s like cool, Scott’s on board and, you know, we’ve raised all the money.
4:44 Michael: Yeah.
4:45 Leon: But it’s like those are things that... like I feel like at the start of this it would have been like, "Alright, how are we going to divvy this up? It’ll be like, well I’ll go raise all the money and you’ll find the chef." But I got the chef and you raised all the money. And it’s like this is so... so I guess like, yeah, look, it’s all going swimmingly, but we know there’s going to be some fucking major drama just around the corner. But in the meantime, I think it’s a good opportunity for this to just be a bit of a more boring episode about just what... like you opened a bank account.
5:16 Michael: I mean, the bank account's a good one, it sounds real boring.
5:21 Leon: No, give us the latest.
5:23 Michael: Which I know Daniel Goodman from NAB will be listening. Who’s great. But it is a bit fucking boring opening a bank account. But the initial meeting with him was to talk about the... a bank guarantee.
5:40 Leon: Yeah.
5:41 Michael: As well as opening a bank account. And the bank guarantee for people that haven’t opened their own venue before is essentially security for the landlord that should you go bust or something, you know, you do something really bad in the building.
5:56 Leon: Yeah.
5:57 Michael: Or you just have to exit. They've got time to... they'll release it and they'll hold... they'll hold that bank guarantee.
6:03 Leon: Or you have to exit.
6:04 Michael: Some bank guarantees for like bigger leases are crazy. Like, it’ll be, you know, six months plus rent sort of stuff.
6:14 Leon: How big's ours for the Pinny?
6:15 Michael: Ours is 55 grand. Against our lease, it's actually quite reasonable.
6:21 Leon: Okay.
6:22 Michael: Because that's not six months.
6:23 Leon: No, it’s like three.
6:24 Michael: Exactly, which is unusual. So this will be released after we fully sign everything. I feel like after COVID all of those standards dropped big time.
6:32 Leon: I feel like after COVID all of those standards dropped big time.
6:34 Michael: Well, one of the other standards that dropped was personal guarantees.
6:37 Leon: Right.
6:38 Michael: I haven’t signed a personal guarantee in over five years.
6:41 Leon: Yeah, true.
6:42 Michael: Whereas before they’re like, "You’re going to personal guarantee this as a director and I’m going to take a bank... bank guarantee." Or like previous to COVID it was you could argue not doing a personal guarantee, but then they would force you to do a higher bank guarantee.
7:01 Leon: Yeah, right.
7:02 Michael: So then you’re kind of cooked anyway.
7:04 Leon: Obstructive.
7:05 Michael: So then they force you to sign it. Whereas now landlords are pretty... they’re like, "Okay, no problem."
7:11 Leon: Okay.
7:12 Michael: So on this occasion it was like you went to speak to Daniel to try to work out how we structure it and in typical big bank fashion, they talked a big game but then helped you not at all.
7:25 Leon: Yeah, thanks Dan. Nah, I love you mate.
7:29 Michael: No, the... I think the biggest problem is, you know, 55 grand, whilst it’s not bad, it’s a quarter of our budget, a fifth of our budget.
7:41 Leon: Yeah.
7:42 Michael: That’s just going to be sucked up by a bank guarantee. And it just sits there. And sits there. And sits there. Making bugger all interest. You know, in 10 years when you exit, maybe if you exit the building, which you probably won’t.
7:57 Leon: Yeah.
7:58 Michael: You just never see it again essentially. Your circumstances where you’ll see it again is if you sell the business and the bank guarantee gets transferred, blah blah blah. But, I don’t know, I just feel like someone needs to solve this problem. Like, 55 grand to most business owners is a shitload of money. And for it to be tied up just, you know, "just in case" something happens is crazy.
8:24 Leon: Yeah.
8:25 Michael: So there needs to be a way to be able to secure it through a lender that means that your upfront budget isn’t being cooked by putting it in.
8:36 Leon: Yeah.
8:37 Michael: Like that’s the dream, right? In this case, ain’t going to happen.
8:41 Leon: I mean old school like it was always just one of the directors puts their house up.
8:45 Michael: Yeah, exactly.
8:46 Leon: And it was like that’s still an option.
8:49 Michael: I mean it’s an option but my wife won't allow it.
8:55 Leon: My wife.
8:56 Michael: Just like she won't let you get a motorbike.
8:58 Leon: Exactly, that too. Yeah. But like I also wouldn't want to. Like it’s too much... although I am supremely, not supremely, that’s a bad word, but like I’m very confident that this will go well. At the same time, it’s my house. And you know if I was single and didn't have three kids, I'd be putting that house up.
9:19 Michael: House would be too big for you Michael.
9:21 Leon: Yeah, house would be too big, number one. But just... whoa whoa whoa, before you completely rule it out. This guy’s going to try to convince me that it needs to be my house, not his. I’m not sure why, I reckon... Can we go halves? Is that a...
9:37 Michael: No.
9:38 Leon: No, okay.
9:39 Michael: The value of our houses is pretty much the same as well, so there’s no upside here for anyone.
9:45 Leon: Oh fuck. Okay.
9:46 Michael: But look, I think outside of that though, there... you’re right. Like surely someone’s... like Judo or someone should come to the party here. We just got to reach out and speak to people. I’ve actually hit up a few people just on LinkedIn to be like, "Has anyone solved this yet?"
10:05 Leon: Yeah.
10:06 Michael: You know, and let’s just see what comes back. Anyway, in the meantime we’re getting our bank account set up. Got to set up very quickly actually.
10:14 Leon: Oh yeah?
10:15 Michael: I didn't have to go into a branch.
10:17 Leon: Wow.
10:18 Michael: Kudos, NAB. Well done. And that’s set up and good to go.
10:23 Leon: And the you know great little byproduct is now that getting Kate across all that, now she’s also a signatory or whatever it’s called on our Paxs account. Oh, you're stoked.
10:37 Michael: No change to me, FYI. Because I don't touch that shit anyway.
10:41 Leon: Alright, so what else then? Like what are the other... what's go through the list of like stuff.
10:47 Michael: We’ve had brand. A lot of brand stuff done in the past couple of weeks.
10:52 Leon: Timmy can talk about brand, I reckon.
10:54 Michael: Tell us about brand.
10:56 Leon: Yeah, so we... Rob Oesch. Is that how you say his last name?
11:01 Michael: I was looking it up on the deck yesterday and I was like, "I'm not going to even try."
11:06 Leon: That’s how I want to say it.
11:07 Michael: That’s how I want to say it. And I’ve known him a long time. Well, we’ve known him a long time.
11:11 Leon: William. O-E-S-C-H-E-L-E-R. Yeah, he’s been in our family for a while, done a lot of stuff on previous brands for us and has worked really quickly.
11:22 Michael: It’s wild. It’s from a brand output perspective, it’s the fastest I’ve ever seen someone work at the level that he’s working at.
11:32 Leon: Really?
11:33 Michael: It’s wild. He’s been working at a really big agency in the States that’s, you know, unbelievable pressure. I don’t know how much we can say, but he’s actually going to be back in town soon. But he’s doing this sort of on the side for us, but wow, really great results. We’ve had like 2.5 reviews and refreshes of what we wanted to do. We recently just had to do a little refresh on the color of the brand.
12:05 Leon: Oh? So Leon, this is not your wheelhouse, but what are the sort of most popular colors used in pub brands? In new wave pub brands?
12:16 Michael: I’m going to say maroon.
12:18 Leon: You're right on the money.
12:20 Michael: Don't cheat.
12:21 Leon: You saw it?
12:22 Michael: I reckon across 30 pubs that I did a bit of research on, at least 20 of them had some sort of maroon burgundy. As the primary or secondary color was maroon.
12:35 Leon: Interesting. Any reasoning behind that?
12:38 Michael: Rob's explanation was it just seems right.
12:43 Leon: Feels right.
12:44 Michael: It does though. It does. That’s why on our brand application for that color was the strongest. And we’re like, "Oh, this feels perfect. Of course it does because you’ve seen it 30 fucking times in Melbourne." It’s just something about Melbourne pubs, like Melbourne Bitter.
13:02 Leon: Oh, that’s probably the reference?
13:05 Michael: I reckon, and it fits, it's Melbourne, it's beer, blah blah blah. The rest follows. But, yeah, the updated ones are awesome and very individual.
13:17 Leon: Hang on, can you just give me an example? I’m just thinking about all the pubs. Who the... I can’t think of any colors for any pub.
13:24 Michael: Tim’s got it on his computer. What are the colors for the pub?
13:28 Leon: It is wild. In their brand.
13:31 Michael: Like in their design or their website, posters.
13:36 Leon: I don't think about this sort of shit. You guys think about this stuff a lot, so... Like, okay, the standard.
13:42 Michael: Is this sort of shit we think about.
13:45 Leon: The... who was it? Was it HBO that I sent you? HBO, you know HBO, the TV broadcaster. That’s what you call them? Broadcaster. Yeah. Recently in the news. Their logo has like a 0.1 centimeter gap next to one letter versus the next.
14:06 Michael: Okay.
14:07 Leon: And it’s like this billion dollar company can’t even get their fucking logo right. Sent it to Tim, I was like, "Bro." I mean, you really have to zoom in.
14:15 Michael: You really have to zoom in, but it’s enough... it upsets me a lot. It is funny.
14:19 Leon: Okay, let me just list off the...
14:21 Michael: Unless it’s intentional.
14:22 Leon: The burgundy maroon worlds: it’s the Albion, the Sporting Club, Mount Erica, Albert Park Hotel, the Beehive, Post Office Club Hotel, Royal Oak.
14:38 Michael: Alright, I’m just looking at this though.
14:41 Leon: I know this is great podcast material.
14:44 Michael: But I'm looking at this document in front of me right now.
14:48 Leon: And as you rattle off all of those names and I look at the colors behind those names, I don’t have any association between those two things. Like when you go Post Office Club with that color pattern behind it, I fuck, I don’t... you could have a completely different set of colors. It could be rainbow. And I wouldn't...
15:08 Michael: Oh, that's what they are?
15:10 Leon: See? It’s subconscious.
15:13 Michael: 100% when brand is this thing... this wild thing that like when you feel comfortable with a brand or you look at it and you’re like, "Oh, that’s nice," it’s because you’re subconsciously referencing something else. And that’s why maroon feels really nice and comfortable for a pub because you have seen it, even if you’re not thinking about it.
15:35 Leon: Yeah, true. I think all the designers out there right now are just listening to this being like, "That guy’s a fucking idiot." Like, "Shut up Leon."
15:43 Michael: Me or you?
15:44 Leon: Me. Me.
15:45 Michael: I'm the guy, that annoying consumer.
15:48 Leon: That why do you... okay, here’s a good one for you, really in your fucking world: why do you choose black for your motorbike?
15:58 Michael: Ah... there is a functionality to it.
16:01 Leon: Oh, of course there is.
16:02 Michael: It’s faster.
16:04 Leon: It’s the color that fades the least, and you’re always riding in sun.
16:11 Michael: So annoying you came up with a really practical answer for that. I was trying to go like full Devil Wears Prada on you like... this is the color that fades the most, so never buy a red car.
16:26 Leon: True. Anyway, sorry.
16:29 Michael: Okay, so cool, so colors... so we locked in the colors.
16:33 Leon: Having said all of that, we haven’t actually moved that far away from burgundy to be honest. We’re kind of brownish at this stage.
16:42 Michael: We’re brownish.
16:43 Leon: But yeah, it still feels right, the way we're going.
16:47 Michael: And it is a small portion of people who will really pick up on that.
16:53 Leon: But strong, like I really like how strong it is. Strong, familiar, confident. But I think this stuff, the way that I’ve always thought about this stuff, is it’s actually like spelling and grammar. And it’s like there is 98% of the people out there don’t give a shit about if you send an email and it’s got poor grammar.
17:15 Michael: Your... Sure.
17:16 Leon: But the 2% that care really fucking care.
17:19 Michael: Yeah.
17:20 Leon: So, and I’m in that 2%.
17:22 Michael: And I'm in that 2% in grammar and Tim's the 2% in brand.
17:26 Leon: Exactly.
17:27 Michael: I'm grammar as well though. You use the grammar Nazi, far out.
17:31 Leon: So that's what I mean, so you gotta cater for that 2%, right? You can totally be forgiven sometimes, business owners, founders that are just kind of like, "Is anyone really going to care about this shit?"
17:42 Michael: Yeah, there's going to be some people that do.
17:44 Leon: Man, there’s an argument that in every part of opening a venue, whether it’s brand, grammar, design of the venue, the food menu, the beverage menu... literally every part that there is part of us that is catering to the 2%.
18:04 Michael: Yeah.
18:05 Leon: In terms of level of execution.
18:08 Michael: Sure.
18:09 Leon: And then the 98% don’t really realize they appreciate it, but they do. I tell you who really understands this problem is Rob and the boys from Caretakers.
18:23 Leon: Absolutely.
18:24 Michael: That episode we did with him, like that was just the perfect...
18:28 Leon: True.
18:29 Michael: True. ...really good result.
18:31 Leon: Alright, what else you got?
18:34 Michael: What else I got? I mean you mentioned the sparky before. And it’s, you know, obviously going into a pub, it’s an old building. And we’re removing the stage.
18:45 Leon: Which is a big one. Like, did we...
18:47 Michael: Oh yeah, we... this is a big topic actually is the things that we’re keeping and removing.
18:52 Leon: Oh yeah.
18:53 Michael: I mean, the classic new owners in a pub taking out live music.
18:58 Leon: We actually haven’t talked about this.
19:00 Michael: Yeah, I mean you said this was going to be a boring episode, maybe not.
19:05 Leon: And it’s been a big one for me because when I first looked at it actually with Mark, I was like, "Oh, maybe there’s a world where we keep a pretty big element of it and we try and blend the two worlds of our hospitality dining..."
19:21 Michael: With live music.
19:22 Leon: "...with live music." But it can be done, of course it can be.
19:26 Michael: Really? Like cabaret?
19:29 Leon: Oh, not cabaret. Not fucking cabaret.
19:32 Michael: No, um... schnitz and tits.
19:34 Leon: Back in the day, back in St Kilda.
19:37 Michael: I don't know what you're talking about, Tim. But can you... can you point to one live music venue that is crushing it?
19:47 Leon: Do you want me to reel them off?
19:49 Michael: Go for it.
19:50 Leon: A little place called Music Room in the city.
19:54 Michael: Oh no, I mean I'm talking...
19:55 Leon: Dining.
19:56 Michael: No, no, I’m actually talking... so like, actually, Music Room pretty much rolls my whole point of, yeah, okay.
20:03 Leon: Move on.
20:04 Michael: Yeah, Music Room. Hubert in Sydney, also from the same guys, Caretakers. Corner...
20:12 Leon: Okay, so if you look at...
20:14 Michael: ...the Corner.
20:15 Leon: ...yeah, the Corner and you look at like... yeah, the Corner and you look at like all those places are bringing in acts that you’re paying 70 bucks a ticket to see.
20:25 Michael: Well the Corner, yeah, but um... Music Room do do ticketed sometimes, but not... not normally.
20:31 Leon: Yeah, okay, gotcha.
20:32 Michael: And same with those... those references in Sydney aren’t either. But their billing is highly, highly curated, right? They’re bringing in... like that’s where Dom Dolla did his fucking secret show. So I’m talking like, okay, think about the... the Pinny and as and what it’s represented as a live music venue. No one’s doing their fucking secret show there.
21:00 Michael: They've whatever they've got they've had live music, there's probably what, 30 people in the audience.
21:06 Leon: Well I think the big thing about the Pinny, I think, is that it has its one main room. With a stage that’s front and center. And when there’s a band on, there’s a band on.
21:19 Michael: You're not eating food at that point.
21:21 Leon: No.
21:22 Michael: You've drawn a line in the sand. And often with these to make it worthwhile, there's a door charge of 15, 20, 25 bucks, which is next to nothing.
21:34 Leon: Yeah.
21:35 Michael: So I think that there’s probably a case for people going "don’t want to pay the cover charge, they typically have bands on a Saturday, let’s not go for dinner." Or they’re going for dinner and literally the band setting up. And then they clear out and the ticketed people come in.
21:54 Leon: It's like going to... going to dinner at Hope Street Radio. Can't hear a fucking thing because it's so loud.
22:01 Michael: Come on, B.
22:02 Leon: You better be listening.
22:03 Michael: Old man.
22:04 Leon: Maybe it’ll be... I don’t know. I just... this but to my point, this is not normal.
22:11 Michael: No.
22:12 Leon: Businesses don’t open like this. So... so this will be the final episode of the... You know what I think a big part of it is? This is the first time that I’ve opened a venue where I’ve actually had time. And I mean time in the sense of from here until opening or when we... when we viewed it, to when we’re actually going to open it is a decent amount of time. I mean, some people would argue that three months isn’t, but to me it is. But also I’ve just been afforded the ability to do it because of the way we’ve set up Paxs.
22:45 Leon: Where were we at? So we’re saying we... so live music’s out, obviously.
22:50 Michael: Yeah. I still think we should do some stuff in the backyard... in the... in the beer garden on that tiny stage.
23:01 Leon: Oh yeah?
23:02 Michael: Like Sunday avo stuff, but... big bands, it’s out. It’s just...
23:07 Leon: And I also on top of that, I also want to note, like when I was thinking about maybe there’s an element we can keep at the front, I’ve just had the realization like, I’m not a music guy.
23:18 Michael: No.
23:19 Leon: And why am I going to try and be? Like, to get this right. I mean you’ve had heaps of experience with that space, Leon. You’ve had experience with that space too, Tim, and we probably if we really wanted to pull it off, try.
23:32 Michael: But it’s just not in my DNA.
23:34 Leon: And I’m going to always be at tension or at odds with how we bring that into the whole... project. And how we can make it work.
23:45 Michael: And respectfully, it hasn’t really worked in the last few years for them.
23:51 Leon: No.
23:52 Michael: Unfortunately. It hasn't. You could almost argue that it's worked against them.
23:58 Leon: Potentially.
23:59 Michael: And I’ve spoken to a lot of people that are local to the area. Like I was at my... I had an osteo appointment this this week, ah sorry yesterday... sorry this morning, that was... the osteo is like 100 meters up from the Pinny.
24:14 Leon: Oh yeah, sure.
24:15 Michael: And he’s been there forever.
24:16 Leon: Yeah, sure.
24:17 Michael: And I was like, "Oh, we’re taking over the Pinny." He’s like, "Oh my god, like I’ve been going to the Pinnacle for 20 years since it opened." And we just spoke through all the... the changes it’s had in that... in that time. And he’s one thing now, he’s like, he’s got a young family and he’s like, "Yeah, I don’t go there because it’s just changed so much, it’s not really for us anymore." And he’s like, "Man, the... the neighborhood’s crying out for exactly what you guys are... are pitching for."
24:49 Leon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
24:52 Michael: Today’s community advert is brought to you by Industry Kitchens. Hey Varni. Yes. Best cafe in Fitzroy North? Oh, got to be Standing Room. They are great, love Thomas, they've been around for a long time and what I absolutely adore about them is their sense of community. If you go there any day during the week, particularly on the weekends, there's a whole throng of people hanging out the front, catching up. It’s a lovely space. Awesome man, thank you. Pleasure.
25:27 Leon: Alright, next. What's up?
25:29 Michael: What's up? Um... spoke about brand, went through bank stuff.
25:35 Leon: Like food.
25:36 Michael: Food. I mean we met with Scott again.
25:39 Leon: Ah yeah, that was a great catch-up.
25:41 Michael: ...which was a really good catch-up. We met for an hour and a half. And an hour and 15 minutes we didn't talk about the pub. We talked about other shit. Which is essentially a symptom of having meetings with you and now Scott. Also our synergy as humans.
25:58 Leon: It’s true. It’s synergy.
25:59 Michael: It’s huge. It’s true. ...but yeah, he’s going to get going in Jan on R&D for the food. We spoke about menu pricing. It’s a big one because we were at another Melbourne pub, in a North pub looking at pricing and I was like, "Man, this is restaurant pricing." And Scott was like, "Bro, this is just pricing." It’s like, if you buy a... what was his reference? If you buy a family size kettle packet of kettle chips from the supermarket it’s $9 now. Like, how can a... how can a main meal be under $40?
26:42 Leon: Like, it’s hard. It’s pretty good. We really should be eating at a pub once a week, every... every week until... going nearly that.
26:54 Michael: You're just not invited.
26:56 Leon: Nah, we went all together. Two weeks ago? True.
27:01 Michael: But yeah, pricing's a big one. And I think straddling the line between wanting to use high quality ingredients as much as possible, obviously, but then being able to deliver that in the kitchen program, food program, to make it delicious without charging $50 a main plate.
27:21 Leon: Yeah.
27:22 Michael: Like, it’s hard. But at the same time I want to hit a number for the menu that makes it feel like you can go there every week. Like it’s really important. Otherwise we’re just going to be another restaurant that people go to once a month.
27:41 Leon: Yeah, exactly.
27:42 Michael: Maybe.
27:43 Leon: Well you got to find a way. There’s ways, it’s just no one’s found them yet. Most likely, it’ll be you and Scott.
27:51 Michael: We’ll find a way. Just make it happen. And there’ll be stuff on there that’s like a bit more special and a bit more expensive, that’ll be the way it is, but there’ll be stuff on there that’s like okay, we’re nailing this price point. I mean the best pub reference I can come up with and people will roll their eyes when I say it but... is Tom McHugo's in... in Tassie, in Hobart.
28:15 Leon: It's my favorite pub ever.
28:17 Michael: It's closed now. And they... they did really, really well. But their menu was kind of this perfect intersection of really interesting wild food and then schnitty.
28:34 Leon: Ah yeah.
28:35 Michael: And the prices reflected it. It was like the schnitty was 25 bucks. It was quite cheap. And then you could also go there for like a wild game pie or like they had deep-fry... they had haggis spring rolls or I’m going to get it right, haggis dumplings or something crazy. It was delicious.
28:56 Leon: It was so good.
28:57 Michael: It was so good. And they had all this crazy stuff and then... it just meant they got people that are really interested in food and booze coming, but then they also catered to locals.
29:08 Leon: Hey, something sorry, this is not on topic at all, but something we got to add to the research list, kind of on topic. We know a few people in our network that have opened pubs, almost some of them quite recently, like Shan and her partner went out to Beechworth and opened a pub.
29:26 Michael: Oh yeah. What's it... what's it called?
29:28 Leon: I... I... I can’t remember. I follow it on socials but I can’t remember. I know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah, exactly.
29:35 Michael: We should go out and be like, "Hey, let’s... can we come see you? Yeah, what’s the thing? What are the biggest things you learned in your first six months?"
29:43 Leon: Well that's my biggest thing at the moment and yes, things going well and this feels somewhat easy to do because nothing bad’s happened yet.
29:54 Michael: But I’ve had this moment of like, "Hang on, I’ve never opened a pub before. What am I missing here?"
30:00 Leon: Like, even when I'm opening restaurants I feel that sometimes but... for a pub in particular, it's just like this very particular skill set.
30:09 Michael: And some people in restaurant land, I think, feel like they could just easily open a pub because it’s quote-unquote "easier" and it’s, you know, it’s the lower form of hospitality as what some people would say.
30:23 Leon: Yeah, totally.
30:24 Michael: Whereas for me that’s not the case. But at the same time I’m coming from that... that world and then trying to apply the same thinking into pub, into a pub.
30:35 Leon: And of course I second guess myself. I’m like, "Am I making the right decisions here? Is the brand as good as I think... as we think it is? Is the menu format we’re thinking actually right? Is the beer list I’ve written actually right? Aka Carlton on there."
30:52 Michael: Like all these things. And um... yeah, it’s just like, you know, crossing the confidence.
31:00 Leon: I think the best way to mitigate it though is to just like not leave any stone unturned and do the hard yards now, which is what you’re doing.
31:09 Michael: And I know what you mean.
31:10 Leon: When I was in the cafe world, we used to experience that all the time, right? Restaurant people would come to the cafe being like, "Oh, I just want to cruise your job." They wouldn’t say that, but that’s what they were thinking.
31:22 Michael: And then they would go down in service, like go down hard. I’m talking chef, restaurant chefs, restaurant... yeah, it’s a different game.
31:29 Leon: And I used to always say it’s like just because you can play guitar doesn’t mean you can play bass. You know?
31:34 Michael: And it’s like a bit of that. And I think, you know, there is a bit of a risk of, you know, someone like you going into a pub with that.
31:42 Leon: But I think, you know, it’s on us and also you are inherently, like, product-minded in everything you do to just try to mitigate it.
31:52 Michael: Anyway, I think going to speak into some crew that have opened pubs and asking them those details will help with that. Yeah, definitely.
31:59 Leon: I think at the end of the day, like it gets as it gets closer to crunch time of takeover, those feelings dissipate because then you’re just... like the level of pressure goes up a few notches and then you’re just on to do the flip and open.
32:15 Michael: And then you’re just in complete fucking action mode of just like, "Okay, today we need to do this to get this place open and go forth from there."
32:24 Leon: So, yeah. What else is on your list?
32:29 Michael: Ah, that's it. Like, it's been a pretty... a pretty good week.
32:33 Leon: Now we’re... I mean we’re starting to talk to lawyers to draft shareholders agreement.
32:38 Michael: So all the investors are in.
32:39 Leon: Yeah, so start to really put detail around that.
32:44 Michael: Yeah, I've done a bunch of them before, so it's a little bit easier.
32:48 Leon: But at the same time doing it now is really important. Like so many people don’t do one and just start the business and then six months in there’s a problem and you’ve got nothing to refer to.
33:02 Michael: Is what did we agree on? Unless you used the Texas shootout.
33:07 Leon: The Texas shootout. That’s for another... that’s a whole other episode.
33:11 Michael: But I mean just in terms of that decision-making and who’s actually a director and all that sort of stuff is being built out now.
33:20 Leon: So we'll have that done in the next week and the shareholders agreement will be done in the New Year.
33:28 Michael: Yeah.
33:29 Leon: Okay.
33:30 Michael: Yeah.
33:31 Leon: So that's a lot of activity yet again. Nothing really stressing you out.
33:36 Michael: I think you gave us a pretty good sneak peek into what to expect.
33:41 Leon: Yeah.
33:42 Michael: So as in... is there anything specific on the menu... I mean you’re going to wait a bit to on the drinks menu or food?
33:50 Leon: I mean drinks menu like nothing... like it’s all stuff that people are going to love and drink. Like it’s pretty straightforward. We’re definitely going to have a wine on tap, which is cool.
34:03 Michael: We are going to have a non-alc beer on tap.
34:07 Leon: Cool. Good call.
34:08 Michael: Yeah, I was talking to B about this actually with Lauren and she actually said before she went on mat leave, she’s like, "Fuck, like why isn’t someone doing tap beer... like non-alc tap beer? And it’s like they are, but no one will give up the real estate to do it because everyone’s like, 'Oh you know I need that real estate for the other beers.'"
34:30 Leon: Right.
34:31 Michael: Which is correct, like in terms of volume.
34:33 Leon: Like a big pub company is looking at volume per tap and they dial into it, like it.
34:41 Michael: But you're telling me that in this day and age non-alc is not out-selling some of those.
34:47 Leon: Well this is the point. A lot of pubs that are have that are contracted to the hilt with CUB or Lion, you look at their tap range and there’s five beers that taste the same or somewhat in the same ballpark.
35:01 Michael: But then they won't put a non-alc beer on in to replace one of them because they're contracted so much.
35:08 Leon: I think that's probably a big problem. The bigger problem. But yeah, talking to... the guys at the Pinny now like they sell quite a lot of cans of non-alc beer and they've got a couple to choose from.
35:22 Michael: So it’s like, do you know which one you’re going to put on?
35:25 Leon: Well there's no... well this is the other problem.
35:27 Michael: No one puts them in kegs.
35:29 Leon: Ah.
35:30 Michael: Because no one will put it on tap.
35:32 Leon: So this is the problem.
35:33 Michael: So Heaps Normal do have it in keg now?
35:36 Leon: Surely Stomping Ground does.
35:38 Michael: Bridge Road do?
35:39 Leon: Well they have it on tap at their brewery, yeah.
35:42 Michael: That’s a maybe.
35:43 Leon: But do they have it in distribution?
35:45 Michael: So like there’ll definitely be a few, I’m not saying there’s none, but there... there hasn’t been a lot.
35:50 Leon: The other problem is and I don't know if this is a problem yet is will the beer freeze in the line?
35:56 Michael: Because there’s no booze.
35:58 Leon: Ah fuck.
35:59 Michael: Because the ABV level. And it’s like, yeah, but beer’s already quite low.
36:04 Leon: Well hang on, there's people doing it now though so...
36:08 Michael: Yeah, exactly. So shouldn’t be an issue. Oh god. I mean the... you run a different line but anyway, that’s getting into detail.
36:16 Leon: But we’re definitely going to have it for day one, which is awesome. And I know, you know, two out of three of us barely drink now, well you definitely don’t drink Leon.
36:28 Michael: I swear to god every time I go out to a pub with people, one person is having a non-alc.
36:34 Leon: Without fail. Every time, right?
36:36 Michael: Every time. Yeah.
36:37 Leon: Alright, I’ve got an idea for you.
36:40 Michael: Oh yes, the weekly idea.
36:42 Leon: Forgot about the weekly idea. I didn’t have one when we hit record but when you started talking about branding I just tuned out. Tuned out and went to another world to come up with my own idea.
36:56 Michael: So I’ve got this idea.
36:57 Leon: I was actually just thinking about it when you were talking about the beer lines.
37:02 Michael: Oh no.
37:03 Leon: Okay, are you familiar with the concept... Here we go. ...of temptation bundling?
37:11 Michael: Have you heard of this concept before? You surely have. I surely have.
37:15 Leon: Yeah. You have, right? So I’ll... I’ll just to explain what it is. On the menu?
37:21 Michael: Here you go.
37:22 Leon: It’s actually a... so temptation bundling is actually a productivity strategy. And and how it works is it says that you you take a task that you hate doing or that you have to do but you don’t want to do and you pair it with a task that you love doing.
37:41 Michael: Yeah.
37:42 Leon: And you get it done more.
37:44 Michael: Right.
37:45 Leon: So a good example you might... this real like James Clear shit of like, what’s his book called?
37:51 Michael: I don't know. Oh, the Atomic Habits guy.
37:54 Leon: I didn’t read it. So so if you think about it, it’s like um... folding laundry. Right? Someone might hate folding laundry but they love drinking whiskey. And it’s like cool, pour yourself a double, fold laundry and you would do it all the time without question.
38:12 Michael: You wake up the next day it's just all thrown in. Thrown in your... thrown clothes. Until you put the tunes on and start trashing the room.
38:21 Leon: So no, so it’s... so temptation bundling, it’s a thing, right? And it’s actually I don’t... look, you know, I don’t want to like discuss the merits of it. I just think it’s a nice idea.
38:32 Michael: Okay, but what is it? Put it through.
38:34 Leon: Okay, well, so where I’m going with this is if you think about the things that I hold true, okay? The the tasks that I think are really important that you should do every week. Alright? The things that I do diligently and never abstain from.
38:53 Michael: Meditation.
38:54 Leon: Well no. Budgeting.
38:56 Michael: No.
38:57 Leon: I wish... I wish I budgeted every week. Riding a motorbike?
39:01 Michael: No.
39:02 Leon: It’s no, it’s productivity, it’s it’s planning your week out.
39:06 Michael: Right.
39:07 Leon: On a Sunday spending the time on your fucking laptop or with a piece of paper work out your to do's like I’ve got my four-step system all that shit right and you do it and you get it done and then you have a really, really productive week.
39:21 Michael: And a good sleep on Sunday night I have to add.
39:24 Leon: Exactly, because you get it all out of your head.
39:26 Michael: ...because I do it as well and I’m like, if I don’t do that because we’re out or doing whatever and I wake up... I have a shit sleep and I wake up Monday morning stressed.
39:35 Leon: Well I I remember showing you this method when you left Attica. Yeah.
39:41 Michael: And if there’s one person in my network that that people would say is busier than me, it’s you.
39:48 Leon: Yeah, sure.
39:49 Michael: And so it’s like that system fucking works, right? And I’m constantly touting it in almost every conversation that I can, right? And I think that if more people spent time on a Sunday afternoon at the pub because we give them a free pint, you know, doing that work, we would have a more productive community.
40:15 Michael: So how about we say to all the locals in the area if you come in and plan your week out on a Sunday avo we’ll give you a free pint? Productive pints.
40:26 Leon: Ooh, I like... that’s a good name.
40:29 Michael: Just because it’s a good name doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, guys.
40:33 Leon: Come on, this is a good idea.
40:35 Michael: This is like the pool table.
40:37 Leon: Why?
40:38 Michael: Right? If we have the space, we do productive pints. But if people are eating and drinking and having a merry time, I don’t want a bunch of bros on laptops.
40:51 Leon: Without me for like a couple of hours on a Sunday?
40:55 Michael: That’ll be like a couple of hours on a Sunday.
40:57 Leon: ...wait a minute, so you’re saying that if what if I didn’t want to do the productive pint I just wanted to come in on my own and have a beer, there wouldn't be a place for me?
41:07 Michael: Oh you could do that.
41:08 Leon: So then what are you talking about?
41:09 Michael: No, because we’ve got to literally say "hey come use us as an office."
41:13 Leon: It’s not using it as an office.
41:15 Michael: I know, I know. I know.
41:16 Leon: Like that... but it’ll feel like that. Imagine if you walk in and there’s like five people just on laptops.
41:22 Michael: Do you have to submit what you're going to what you plan for the week is as you...
41:26 Leon: It’s an honesty system, right?
41:28 Michael: Okay.
41:29 Leon: It’s just like "hey I’m going to plan my week out, can I have a pint?" "Sure."
41:34 Michael: I okay. I love your brain, Leon. I really do.
41:39 Leon: It’s wild.
41:40 Michael: It’s just great. Alright, tell you what, even if you don’t get behind this idea, I’m just going to do it anyway.
41:47 Leon: I actually think although it wouldn’t fit the Sunday afternoon week planning, I think doing something in that vein... Yeah, sure. ...like on a Monday or Tuesday night that you actually do.
42:01 Michael: Well it’s Run Club. That’s... that’s Run Club.
42:04 Leon: It’s the Run Club.
42:05 Michael: ...is the version of... See I can do the Run Club.
42:08 Leon: Yeah, sure.
42:09 Michael: ...and you like right now I’m cooked, but um... yeah, we can do that.
42:12 Leon: Love that.
42:13 Michael: We could do like Excel workshops and Leon Kennedy, freak in the sheets. Also like encouraging people to warm up their cars before they...
42:27 Leon: For fuck's sake. Alright we’re at 40 minutes.
42:31 Michael: Nice one.
42:32 Leon: Thanks guys.
42:33 Michael: See you next week. Cheers.
42:34 Leon: Thank you so much for listening to the Pinnicast. We’re super stoked to be bringing this series to you so we hope you found it informative. We would love to hear from you. We’d love some feedback, any thoughts you have around how we’re going about it would be really, really welcomed. So hit us up at hello@paxs.melbourne and we will definitely be all ears and we’ll respond. Lastly, just want to say a massive thanks again to Industry Kitchens, to Poster Boy Media. Without them, none of this would be possible. So, yeah, massive, massive shout-out. We’re really looking forward to bringing you more. Cheers.