Bonus: How Stomping Ground Made Craft Beer Welcoming For Everyone

What does it take to turn a passion for craft beer into a thriving, scalable hospitality brand? In this episode, Justin Joiner and Guy Greenstone, the visionary founders of Stomping Ground Brewing Co., sit down to discuss the "economically irrational" decisions that defined their success. From building a legendary indoor cubby house to launching a high-risk airport pop-up, Justin and Guy share how they use hospitality as a competitive weapon. They dive deep into the essential role of early people-and-culture hires, the discipline required to maintain a functioning board, and the difference between 'professionalising' and 'corporatising' a startup. This conversation offers a masterclass in leading with purpose and protecting your brand’s DNA while you scale.

For more information on PAX, pax.melbourne 

Follow @pax.melbourne on social media.

PAX acknowledges the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people as the traditional custodians of the land on which we operate. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to all First Nations People.

Transcript

Why Stomping Ground Exists

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Justin and Guy, welcome to the Pax Hospitality Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

It's so good to have you guys here. I should actually introduce you guys properly. It's obviously Justin and Guy from Stomping Ground. Everyone knows you guys well enough, so I'm just gonna use first names. Do you want me to use surnames? No. That'll do.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

We're informal around here.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Yeah, awesome. So I've got to start by saying I'm so stoked to be doing this. I've wanted to get you guys on a podcast for so long. Like, seriously, so long. And it's funny, I was actually really pissed about it because when I first started doing the Principal of Hospitality podcast, before they asked me to be a host, they asked me for a hit list of good people to interview. And I you guys were on that list, so they interviewed you. And then when I started interviewing, I was like, oh, now they're on there already.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I've got an interview. Yeah, I did that one with Sean. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, so now I get my turn. And it's really funny because I thought why I was really interested to do it is because I just thought every time we've known each other for a while, right? I've hung out heaps, and every time we hang out, it's like the best chat. It's so funny because I feel like, you know, you know, for me and you, Justin, we've sit down and talk about things as simple as like footy, and and we're always talking about business. And I feel like you and me, guy, have talked about all sorts of conspiracy theories and economics and evolution and science.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

That's right, collective imagination, what people are doing in their spare time and how to decompress from work and all those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, it's epic, it's it's really cool. Like every time I see you guys at an event or something, I'm just like beeling straight for you out, and it just makes it worthwhile. And so I just thought it's A, we haven't actually caught up in a while. So I guess we're just doing a normal catch-up, but with microphones in front of our mouths. Um, but what's interesting, just before we jump into it, I thought it was really funny because when I was thinking about how to put this together, I kind of went down like a real rabbit hole. Because originally I was like, all right, I really want to do this, you know, like let's I don't know, maybe I'd just been like anticipating it for so long. So I tried to just like come up with like concepts and things and stuff, and I wrote it all down on a mural board, and then I went and saw Jazzy and I was like, what do you think of all this? And even just as I was saying it out loud to him, I was like, none of this even feels right. And then I went home that night and I was like, you know what? Just if I was interviewing you guys for like, I don't know, like a business school case study or something, like what would I ask you? And I wrote all those questions down, and then I just sent them through, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is great. But funnily enough, I've never done a podcast like this before.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

There you go. As in you usually just free uh free stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Jump in. Usually I just jump in. I'll kind of be like, hey, here's kind of the stuff we want to talk about. All the stuff I want to talk about is always gonna be like mission-based, you know, business side of things, pretty philosophical. Not I'm never just gonna be like, so what advice have you got for someone who wants to open a brewery? Like, you know, I'm always gonna try and shy away from that, but usually just come up with some topics and and just kind of run with it. But with this, I was like, this is cool. I'll ramble a little bit less today. We'll see how we go. Um, did you guys did you guys read them? Did you get them? Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

All right, sweet. So just off air, we were we were saying that uh I just got back from a hike in Kangu Island. So I have to confess that I haven't had a chance to because I've been back two days. Oh wow, and um and I've just jumped straight. So, but I'm open to any question, nothing's too easy, I mean, nothing's too hard. Um, and um happy to uh you know go deep.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Cool. All right, so uh I've got a lot of questions here. Let's just see what we get through. I've split them up into like business questions and then stuff that's a little bit more philosophical, and I reckon rather let's just jump around. Sure. Yeah, and if you haven't read them any read them, then you won't know any different.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

So excellent. Well, I look forward to I look forward to being caught off guard and surprised. Great. I just hope I can actually come up with an answer.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Mate, you've never ever struggled with that as long as I've known you. So all right, my first question for you is when you started stomping around, what problem were you actually solving? And was it the same problems was it the same problem your customers thought you were solving?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Good question. So, do you want to go first, JJ? Do you want me to go first?

Making Craft Beer Accessible

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Well, I think one of the things um that we were trying to do, or the opportunity that we saw, was to bring our hospitality background to a brewing setting. Okay. And I think making beer accessible is probably um the underlying theme in terms of the problem that we're trying to solve. I think early days craft beer um was pretty pointy end, a bit nerdy, a bit hard to get into if it was kind of if you know you know kind of vibes, and you might feel um a bit out of your depth in a bottle shop or even in a in a venue. And we wanted to sort of flip that on its head a little bit. Um, and a um arm our team with information and ability to talk about the beers specifically, but also make the offer broad enough that everyone was welcome, not just the beer nerds that were that were coming in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Yeah, I mean that's bang on. The other thing I would add to that is um I'm gonna go way back when we first started the local tap house. Um, the problem we were trying to solve then is um that's when the brewing industry was really sort of fledgling and it was really kind of new.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

And people used to go into venues and ask for beer by brand. So they'd say, have you got a VB, you've got a Carlton Draft, have you got a Guinness? And we thought, well, wine has done such a great job in educating the consumer about varietals, you know, have you got a cab sav, have you got a Shiraz? I really like a you know, a Merlot, whatever whatever it happened to be. Um, we thought, wouldn't it be cool if we could make people consider that with beer as well? So coming into the venue and saying, have you got a an IPA? Have you got a sour beer? What about a Belgian strong ale? And we thought that would be for us, that would just elevate you know what beer was all about and educate the consumer that there's so much to beer, and it's not just about you know the biggest brand budget for marketing.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Sure. So so the second part to that question was like, was it was it the same problem that your customers thought you were solving? Which is a really um, now that I read it out loud, a really weird question.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

You start judging. Um I don't know if if I don't know what they thought they needed solving, but it was Did they get it? They did, yeah, and it was kind of of its time in the in that everything was new in craft beer at the time. There was new things popping up everywhere, and so our um kind of offer was the first big sort of warehouse beer hall type vibe in Melbourne, and um so there was there was some excitement about it being new, and people's eyes were open, I think, to what we were trying to offer.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Got it. So you know, it's a super anecdotal. I what what year was this? 2016. 2016. So my experience with craft beer was like before that, and it was at the Great Northern in North Carleton. Yeah, and it was quite funny. Institution. Yeah, institution. So we so we started drinking there just after um Ali had bought it. Yeah, and so it was super, super fresh. And and at that stage we were all just Carlton draft drinkers, that's just what we drank, right? We'd always just go there for the footy and we'd watch that. And then how I actually got introduced to craft beer was the um oh my god, I'm blanking on their name, uh, Stone and Wood. Stone uh Pacific Ale. And the only reason we drank it is because one of my mates went to get around and he was um trying to get in with the bar chick, and she poured him that I don't know how, and he just felt too shy to say he didn't like us more. So he just brought it back to the table, and we were all just like, oh, this is actually pretty good. And I was also giving a few beers as well, because I'd come back from London and they had the hand pump, and I was like, and I love that, right? Love the hand pump, but they they hated me for loving it because it was such a pain in the ass to do it, too. But I'm curious, so so but for you guys, like there was a few people at that time sort of doing stuff, but you guys were the first ones to bring it into that setting, right? Where it was like truly accessible. Like, how did you sort of like differentiate yourselves or take it up a notch from what people were currently doing?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

We probably weren't the first to do it in that kind of setting. There was little creatures over in Frio. Oh, yeah. There were also other breweries around who had an element of hospitality, the goat guys down in Richmond. Oh, sure, yeah, of course. But unfortunately, they were restricted in the hours that they could open, and otherwise that would have been probably a similar thing. There were a few others around at the time. Um, but I forgot what the question was.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Well, no, I I think um picking up from where you left off, JJ. I think what was really important to us is we we did a big research trip around the States.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Okay, cool.

Hospitality As A Competitive Edge

SPEAKER_02 8:47

And we went to all of the best breweries that we could find, and all these incredible names like Ballast Point and Stone, and um uh and we went up into um Portland and and went to Deschutes and um and Bend um and and all of these places, and and it was phenomenal. Like we were absolutely blown away by how great the beer was, but almost without with all without exception, except for maybe Stone and Deschutes, the hospitality offer was pretty poor. It was like an afterthought. It was like it was like an industrial estate with a few basic taps, and you know, it was it was it felt real and real community kind of based, but it we felt that it was really missing a beat, uh missing a trick, and we wanted to present um the uh beer side of things and really have an amazing beer experience, but we wanted to couple that with a fantastic hospitality experience as well, where there was great service and there was great food, and importantly, as Justin said before, um really brought people in and was um inclusive and therefore brought more people into the category, yeah, pardon me, and more people into um into beer rather than only the pointy end and making this a like a mecca for the uh pointy end. We wanted to say everyone's welcome, and even if you don't drink beer right now and you prefer wine or spirits or whatever, we can cater for you, but hopefully we're gonna significantly get you over the line with beer down the track. So the hospitality part, we wanted to make it beautiful, accessible, and we want it to be the way that our beer was best showcased in in that environment where we could control the experience, the the lighting, the ambiance, the you know, the decor, the the vibe, and um and you know the whole experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Um and yeah, so that I think that's what what was the decision then? Because you you reach a few forks in the road, right, when you come in with a bit of a North Star like that, and you made some really like bold decisions early. So, I mean, even right down to the name, right? I'm guessing the name is symbolic of this ethos. But uh the to me, the the the ballsiest move that I just loved was the fact that you know you kind of come in and you don't know whether you're gonna be heaving or not, but you've got to plan for the fact that you might be, and you fucking were, but instead you you just take this massive area of of the floor, which could be people sitting down eating, and you turned it into a playground. A cubby house.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Cubby house, loved it. It was so good. It's I mean, it's interesting because um I was aside from the cubby house, just in general, every time we've opened up you know a large format venue like the beer hall in Collingwood and the beer hall in Morabin, there's always a nervous period of time where you go, We think it's gonna work. We really think it's gonna work, but you know, fuck, I hope people show up, you know. Pardon my friend, I you know, I hope that you know that we can actually feel the joint because otherwise we're gonna look pretty silly. But um, yeah, so there's always that nervousness. But then the cubby house, did you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah, well, I mean it was it was almost an afterthought, really. Right. Um it came very late in the in the um process of of build when we kind of turned around. I reckon it might have only been three or four months before we opened, and we turned around and looked at um the our uh various tribes, and we probably had about four kids under six between us at the time, and thought we're gonna need something for this. So um I can't remember. It might have been Steve's, I think.

The Cubby House Bet

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Uh yeah, I can't remember. But we wanted to make, I mean, it's sort of central to the ethos, really. Yeah, yeah. Um, in terms of being accessible, getting people, you know, bringing people in and went wanting to be um you know family friendly and uh and and be for for all walks and really kind of be able to appeal to a broad, you know, broad base.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

So it was probably the most talked about 30 square meters in the building from day one. Like the Insta moms got hold of it and shared it and whatever else. And it was um, we were pleasantly surprised by the impact that it had. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Funny story though, um, when we went to open, um the building surveyor looked at it and couldn't get his head around whether it was you know BCA compliant. And it's like, where are the certificates? And we were like, it's a buddy playground. He's like, but the rail isn't at the right height and the right and we and he said, I can't sign off on this. And we said, we said, are you kidding? And so we said, I'll tell you what, come back tomorrow and um you know, and it won't be there. And he said, Okay, cool. And then so we put a big sheet of ply, like a wall of ply that covered the whole thing, to like this false wall. Love it. So he signed off on it, and then we took it down. And since then, um, you know, the compliance piece has been solved because more people have done it, and um and now they can uh you know building surveyors can get their heads around it, but but back then we just and he, you know, he obviously knew what we'd done, but he was going, Well, there's nothing to see here, so I'm happy to sign off on that.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I love that. I mean, I just thought like that was such a genius move because it was like timing was impeccable, right? Like you said, you you guys did it experientially, where it's like, hey, between us we got a few kids, but that area was also going through that massive change, right? Where it was all young families. I was one of them, you know, and that's how I I became such a regular was like that was my nightly routine was go home, grab Nevi, who's our first first son, and just give Ali a bit of a break. I just grab him and bring him straight to Stomping Ground. He'd just jump in the cubby and I'd have a beer, and it was just bloody brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah, in fact, at first we had a gate um on there, and people parents used to just leave their kids and and then forget about them. So we actually took the gate off because then we thought, well, now you can't actually just sit and forget.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

There was also a whole heap of other knickknacks attached to it. There was a phone and a all these kinds of things that um it got like almost destroyed in the first few weeks. Like the we it I used to describe it like being uh you know, something being a cockroach being eaten from the inside out, like it was crawling with kids, and um we eventually just had to pull anything out. There was a few things that were kind of got thrown or whatever, and um and you had to make it as safe as we could.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Has there ever been any issues?

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Um we had a it's always a stack or you know, you know, a crying you know situation where someone's fallen over or whatever, but not nothing that you've ever been like held liable for.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

No, we had a we had a Vice magazine party there once, and um very early days, we'd only been open for about um I don't know, maybe three or four months, and they said they were bringing 200 people and 600 kids to turn up for this party, like like early 20-year-olds, and they had this hip-hop group, and they were standing on the sort of the balcony of the cubby and jumping in time with the music, and the cubby was sort of going like this. We had to tell them to get down because I thought the thing was gonna come down, it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Man, so you so you I think that was a really good answer to the problem you're trying to solve. Is is it the same problem you're still trying to solve today? How's it changed?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I think elements of it, yes. I mean, the so forgetting about the tap house ones because that's a problem I feel has been solved. People know what style of beer that they like now.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, well and truly.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

So I think that that's changed completely. Um, but in terms of making beer accessible and celebrating beer with as many people as we possibly can, um I still think that that's a you know the a problem that we need to continue to solve. A lot of people, even today, say, Oh, I don't like that craft beer stuff because it's too flowery or it's too this or too that. And and so there's still an education piece around, hey, do you know that you know we make a great pale lager that's really tasty and isn't floral at all, and it just like tastes like a beer. Because a lot of people say, I just want a beer that tastes like a beer. This tastes like a beer, and it's made with you know great you know ingredients, and it's made by an independent Australian-owned brewer, and uh, you know, and and here's here are the humans behind it. So in some ways, uh, we're still uh educating and we're still also trying to bring people into the fold and doing it in a way that um is not shoving it down people's throats, but making it accessible and um you know and and great to be a part of.

Inclusivity Through Beer Styles

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, I've got a bit of a selfish specific question to ask you. Um I stopped drinking beer just before the non-alk beer thing started to happen. So so that was six years ago when I stopped drinking. And before that, I was obviously drinking lots and most of it and your venue. And what something that I just actually thought of was the fact that I start I was smashing the Littlefoot, is that what it was called? Yeah, the the mid-strength beer.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Yeah, it was it was actually a light, it was two and a half percent. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I think little foot was three and a half. Oh, wasn't it? Three and a half, yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah, yeah. And I but I just remember like no one else was doing that, and and I started drinking it because I would always have meetings, you know, on site there. And so I'd sometimes, like, in a normal standard day, before I'd even left work, I would have had two or three pints. And so then when you had that, I was like, oh, this is gold, because it just I wasn't I didn't feel like I was losing anything in terms of flavour or experience, but I wasn't I wasn't like going home legless either. And I thought this is what but as far as I can remember, no one was doing that back then. Was that to you did you guys like what was your thought process for developing that beer? Was it in line with the thing about making it accessible and and building like a bit of a bridge? Or I don't know, you talked me through it.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah, very much so. I mean, it wasn't common, but it was we weren't but we were by far, we were far from the first people to do a um like a mid-strength type of um IPA or a session IPA or something like that. So and and also you know, mid-strengths have come a long way in terms of flavour and body, etc., and and also just um demand from from consumers. But so back then the demand wasn't that good, but we wanted to do exactly that have a beer full of flavor, and so you can still have a lighter alcohol beer that doesn't put you on your ear that you can have a fair few of without compromising on flavour or body. And so it again, it was about being inclusive and bringing people in. Um, but it was it was as much for our own sake as well. We're drinking all the time because we're part of the, you know, we're part of the industry, and it is a bit of an occupational hazard. Um so you know, it was nice to be able to sit on those a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, no, awesome. Okay, next question. What's the most economically irrational thing you've done that somehow worked?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

I think without a doubt, the pop-up we did at the airport. If you look at if you look at how much that cost and how much it didn't make um over two summers, and some of Well, hang on, hang on.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

The the pop-up out the front, yeah, T3 or something.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

T three and a half, T3 and a half, that's it.

Mid-Strengths And Non-Alc Bridges

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Um and some of the mentalness that had to happen to make that happen, like um the food trucks could only sort of move in and out at 3 a.m. because or 4 a.m. because of the sky bus bus stop that was there and all those sorts of things. And we that it lost money hand over fist both summers that we did, but it's led to um two venues in the actual airport terminals now, yeah um and a and a bunch of other stuff through our relationship with um with Delaware North, who's been which has been great.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Okay, but did did you you didn't know when you did it it was gonna be economically irrational? No, we were kind of hoping it would break even at least. Okay, okay. Oh, so you weren't you weren't anticipating that it would be. No, it was a brand player, it was always a brand player.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

It was never it was never like a financial kind of let's make lots of money out of this, but it was like, hey, Melbourne Airport is the gateway, uh the airport is the gateway to Melbourne. Melbourne is is what we're all about. You know, that's our home, that's where that's what we um what we want to celebrate. We want to celebrate Melbourne's culture. So the airport was a great gateway, uh place where we could showcase our brand, yeah, get in front of heaps of consumers, yeah, get them trialling the beer. Yeah and nothing's changed. That's still why we're in the airport because of that brand awareness and trial piece. And uh so it was always a brand play.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

But it was irrational in the sense that um we invested a lot in it, and it was it was over the top for what it was, but which was part of what made it good. Like we built a bar that could have, you know, been a permanent outdoor bar for 20 years, probably, rather than something that needed to last 10 weeks. Um, and and then we reinvented it um the second year, and we had a buddy a big screen there that was worth about 40 grand, and like it was just it was looking back, like we wouldn't we wouldn't spend that much money on an activation now, I don't think, but it was but it was worth it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Like indirectly, not necessarily from the PL, but the flow on benefit massive. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Um but you know, this is a bit of a common theme though, um, because what's happened with us often is if we knew then what we know now, we wouldn't have done it. Right. But but because we did it, it worked. Like, I mean, gabs was exactly the same. Like, I don't would not have done like half the things we did really if if we kind of had the the insight that we we've kind of got from. What's an example of Gabs? Like Gabs, we we bought two shipping containers, um you know, reefers, and we converted them into bars, and we spent um bucket loads on doing that conversion and on buying the reefers, and then we also bought. Trestle tables and benches from um uh overseas that you know that was just hundreds and hundreds of them because we realized it was actually half the price to rent them, but double the price to buy them. And we thought, well, we're gonna do this for the next 10 years. But like it was such a commitment, and then all of a sudden we had to store them afterwards, but as a result, it paved the way for years two and three and four, and even to today we've still got some. Yeah, right. Um, and you know, and it was like we would like if you if you knew that you would never bite that much off, sure if you if you but then we were just naive and just full, you know, um big picture stars in our eyes, and we thought, well, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

But it's also that's the thing, like once you bite it off, you've got to chew it, right? So it's like you you you just gotta go for it. It holds you accountable and it pushes you to do it.

Irrational Moves That Worked

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah, 100%. And and and and I think that's kind of the what happens when you're kind of young and inexperienced and full of um energy, you just go for it. And uh, and and and luckily enough, it sometimes works.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So young and you know, full of energy is for sure a part of it, but like something I've always struggled with with this, I don't struggle with it, I feel strongly about it, right? Is that yeah, it's you've got the youth on your side and you've got all that working for you where you can just naivety, a bit of like, you know, displaced optimism, maybe. But I do also think that it's not just that, right? It's like there's this underlying passion and there's this underlying mission and purpose that you're serving that actually overrides the logic. Because you could say this about any business, right? Like you look at anyone's business, you most likely it's rare that someone launches a business and it's and they're economically better off than what they could have earned from just getting a job. It's pretty rare, yeah, right? Statistically, yeah. So, but we do it. And it's against all the better logic and advice, right? Like your accountant, your lawyer, your parents, your mates, everyone's gonna tell you, I don't I don't know if you should do this. You know, I don't know, it's not that sound, right? The bank, everyone's gonna tell you not to do it. We all still fucking do it. You take the leap, you've got to take the leap.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Take the leap. And that, I mean, it's funny because it's not probably isolated to business either. It's like, you know, do I want to be a singer and hardly hardly any singers make it? Do I want to be an actor, hardly any actors make it? Do I want to be a tennis pro? You know, it's it's very rare that you make it, but if you're passionate about it and you love it, you're kind of willing to take that risk. Now, most people don't make it, right? Totally. Um, but some do. And uh, and the upside is there if you're if you if you're good enough.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

I think the thing they've all got in common is none of them regret doing it. Do you know what I mean? Like having a crack. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

I don't think you ever sort of sit around going, I wish I never had a crack. Yeah, exactly. You might sit around going, Fuck, I wish I had a crack. You know what I mean? Yeah, like I'm now I'm in my 50s, I'm probably too late to have a you know, I should have had a crack, but like at least you like don't don't want to die wondering, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, there's a um my um eldest son has started reading all the Thursday um Thursday Murder Club books. Have you seen that? No, oh it's so funny. You uh you'd love it, it's pretty but it they're they're they're quite they're completely irrelevant to this conversation. But here they are. There's just this one passage in one of the books where it's talking about this guy who's lived this ultra conservative life, you know, and he's 84 and he's never taken any risks, and you know, he just says this line in the book when he's you know, it's it's in like the first person, this section, and he says how you know you did everything right, but you idiot, you forgot to live, you know, and then and the thing that prompted this thought is there was a sign in this bookshop, it's like a local bookshop, and it's basically says like use it or lose it, and in the sense of like support your local bookshop or I won't read it. And then that's like this metaphor for his life where he was living too conservatively. And two things happened for me. One was I was like, oh, thank fuck I never did that. Like, I'm so glad that I, you know, had yeah, made lots of stupid mistakes. But the second part of me was like, what is the difference between those two groups of people? Right? Like the groups of people like like like us that will just go out there and and do these crazy things that are economically irrational, all right? But like there has to be that sense of purpose that's driving us. I'm curious for you guys, what was it? Is it is it articulatable? What did you talk about it a lot? Is it?

SPEAKER_02 26:18

I mean, it definitely is for me, but I don't know. Maybe do you want to go first, Jack? Yeah, you go first. Well, I mean, it's it's it's a weird thing. Like, I had a bit of a so I I I read a book. You know, you know, you and I both love our books, right? We love all the funny, it's like cocktails and dreams. There's always a book under the counter, you know, some sort of self-help book. And I love all that shit, right? And I I just lap it up.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

And when I was really young, uh like when I say young, I was like, I think I was in my uh early 20s, I read a book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, by Robert Giersaki, which I know is like a seminal piece of work, and a lot of people, and he kind of there was a bit of an awakening where he talked about you know the the working for the man versus the the leverage of um you know of business and you know, talked about the quadrants of um the question, you know, whether you're a self-employed, whether you're an employee, self-employed, a business owner or an investor. And it really kind of resonated with me and it kind of was a bit of an aha moment. And so I think from that moment on, I always believed and felt that um, and I came from a like a a family that was probably a bit more conservative, as in my my dad. I'm not gonna say conservative from a um you know ideas point of view, but like from an economic point of view. My dad, my dad's a dentist. He um, you know, he he so he always sort of worked, it was always work hard and you know do what you need to do. And um, but he really encouraged me as well to go out and do other things. He said, Don't become a dentist, whatever you need.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

What a legend. Um so any other entrepreneurs in the family? No, no, no, okay, well, absolutely no one. And what's your sibling situation?

Purpose Over Pure Profit

SPEAKER_02 27:55

I got I got one sister, um, and she's older, a couple of years older. Um and uh and and she lives in Melbourne now as well. Yeah, and um, and yeah, we get on like a house on fire. But so I think that was it. For me, it was all like I've I I had a mission, I needed to uh there was this concept of financial independence, and I'm no closer to financial independence now. I'm far from it, right? But it was I I had this dream that I was I wanted to become financially independent, you know, where I didn't have to work. Now I'm you know, now I'm 50 something and I'm still not financially independent.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I give you another great quote from a great book. Um did you ever read Thick Face Black Heart? No, it's really this is a classic book, but it's basically there's a line in it that says the entrepreneur is a person who, in order to avoid working eight hours a day, they work 16.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yes, well, that's probably I think that's the entrepreneur's uh, you know, um it's the it's the luxury trap. I mean, it's that it's the it's the entrepreneurial trap.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

So I've got to ask you real quick as well. Did you play the game, Cashflow 202?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

No, I I never played the game.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Oh man. Was it good? Yes. I've got to find it. It's it it's heaps, it's really expensive, and I left the copy I had somewhere, but it's so much fun. Yeah, right. Yeah, like let's I'll I'll organise a night here why not we can nerd out on it. Sure. What was it for you, Juzzy?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Um, I think I think I've always been in hospitality and pubs and restaurants and whatever, and I think every almost every venue manager has a dream for it to be sort of their place at some point, rather than just working for the man and having that kind of independence, not necessarily financial independence, but just independence of thought and input into um how things run and influence on um the team and the people that that you're bringing through and all those sorts of things. And I think that's was from very early days of working in the industry that's what I wanted. I didn't just want to be another cog in someone else's um sort of machine.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Um, and so when the opportunity sort of came up, then it was it was on from then.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

So can I pull on this thread a little bit? Because like I got a core bulldust here. All right. So let me just let me just play devil's avocado. Sure. I'm gonna use it. Great one. So if you say that the motivation was the financial freedom thing, and that inspired you to, you know, go off and do these crazy things, like couldn't I argue that if financial freedom was the motivation, that was a bad way to achieve that. Yes, yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Look, I don't think it was the only motivation, um, but I definitely think it was um a part of of the motivation. Um and you know, I obviously doing being in business is something I it's really hard, but it's something I absolutely love because it brings together so many different every single day is different, whether it's dealing with people, whether it's dealing with the bank, whether it's dealing with suppliers, whether it's dealing with um, you know, uh developers, you name it. And it's it's really varied and it's really interesting, and I love it. And brings together a lot of my my personal love, which is, I mean, you you might you probably will understand this, but not many people will. I love a I love a spreadsheet. I love a spreadsheet. I'd say uh, you know, I like that side of things, so I like the the the numbers side of things, but I also I love the people side of things. I like um getting inspired by people that work with us. Um I like inspiring people to work with us, like helping develop people, giving people a sense of purpose. That really motivates me. Yeah, um, but then also creating experiences for people is something that I absolutely love. Cool. Um, and so the hospitality side of things, which I think we all share in common, is um is you know, to create an experience for someone, whether it's their birthday or whether it's you know some sort of celebration, to be able to create an experience for someone that's memorable for me really gets me out of bed. And that translates onto the beer side as well, because even I geek out on beer. I love beer, I love beer flavor, I love everything that goes into it. I love what you know, the science behind it. I'm a chemical engineer, you probably know that. Um, and and so the the science behind um you know the the beer process, I'm not a brewer, um, I really geek out at, but that's also the experience tasting and experiencing the beer that you may never have experienced before. And I still get a kick out of today today when I share a uh paddle of beer with someone and and they taste a beer that they've never tasted before, and watching what happens to them and they're, I didn't know beer could be like this. Can you know can you taste the coffee? Can you taste the bubble gum? Can you taste you know, whatever the case may be? And and and when they experience that, it's uh I still get a kick out of it.

Culture You Build, Not Receive

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Okay, so that that to me is getting way closer to the the sweet spot, right? Because when you put it that way, it's like what what is the underriding passion for you? It's creating these memorable experiences for people, and then you do that with your peers and your staff and your partners and your family and your mates and the community and and developers, supplier, like that's just you, right? That's just what you do. So now when you say that's what's made me do crazy shit, like buy a bunch of expensive shipping containers for a festival we might not know if we're gonna do ever again, or you know, put a$40,000 screen in the airport, like that stacks up now. Yeah, like that that perfectly makes sense that that was a compass that made you make those decisions that seemed economically irrational, but from a purpose perspective, yes, no-brainer.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

100%. I mean, I look, I'd go one step further to say that purpose is something that we speak about a lot. And when um whenever we're interviewing people for positions um in the brewery, and whenever we're talking about what it is that we're about, purpose comes into it a lot. And so we have a strong sense of purpose, and uh the people that work with us and choose to work with us um and and that you know that we work that we choose to have with us, they need to connect to that purpose. And and and and when there is a strong sense of purpose, I think um magic happens.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah, absolutely. When you've got a clear purpose that other people can connect to, it creates a level of cohesion that you just cannot manufacture any other way.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

100%. Yeah, yeah, I think it just because it clearly sort of articulates and illustrates what you're about, and people know within themselves whether they want to be a part of that or not. Totally. And so it can be super powerful in in including people um and and resonating with people and and um you know giving them something to really buy into.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

So Josie, is your like where Guys was um you know create creating memorable experiences for people, would you use those same words for you? I'm guessing your guys, you that you're really linked by that, by some, by whatever this is, and whatever the way about is would you use the exact same words or does it change for you or is it a different hemisphere?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah, I mean we talk about that a lot, and I think um we definitely share that. I think um the other aspect of it that I really love, we we probably both love, but one that um I think about a lot is just the um the work environment that we're creating and or that we create and the the you know culture for for one of a sort of cliche term that gets bandied around a little bit. But that's something that we work on a lot and we make um decisions about what like big strategic decisions about what we do. We we're really considerate of the cultural implications of what we're doing as well. Um, and that is something I really enjoy as well. I think um even from like uh you just want to be, I think, a business that um that people want to be a part of and that that um if they leave they go with you know um the credibility of sort of being part of something really great. Even like back to you know early days of employing uh 18-year-old hospitality staff, if they came from McDonald's, you'd hire them in a heartbeat because they were well trained. That kind of concept, but you know, to have um I'd I'd love for us to be to have a reputation that if people leave our business, someone will hire them because they know they've they've been part of a good culture. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

There's no greater compliment than people thinking that our staff are sought after because if they worked with us, then that then they must be good. And um, and I think like I don't you know I I I think that that is the case. I think we we managed to attract some amazing people, and as a result, I think when they go out into the workforce uh for the next role, um, I think they're well they're sought after, and I and I which I think I'm enormously proud of that because they are um they're amazing people.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, so so what I hear in that is that it it comes back to this ideal of creating memorable experiences for people because that stretches beyond just customers, it stretches to all stakeholders, internal and instant and external. And that's effectively what you're doing for your internal stakeholders, right? You're creating those memorable experiences for them through their working conditions, um, opportunities for development, you know, training, just support, care, all those things. And you end up with that result where you end up with employees that are probably really well sought after.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah, absolutely. And the only thing I think I'd say to that is when we like Justin and I still sit in on a lot of interviews because hiring is so important. And one of the things that I think we say, along with you know, our um people in culture, head of people in culture, Shawnee, as well as our um recruit recruitment person, Romy, um, we we talk about culture not necessarily being something that is handed to someone and say, there you go, here's a good culture. It's like you're joining the team and you're responsible for the culture too. Yeah, you know, and you you can't just accept here's a culture, you've got to you've got to roll the sleeves up and be part of the culture. And if you see something that needs to change, yeah, get involved.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Love that change it. How how did you um stumble upon that realization? Was it did you learn that the hard way, or were you just innately doing that from the start? And what I mean by that is that that specific thing around you're not being given this culture, you're a part of managing it with me.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah, I think that's probably evolved over time a little bit. Um, because you can't do that uh initially because you haven't created anything. There's like you're trying to build it. And one of the things that we've found with um one of the things that are most interesting in opening a new venue, even with um when some of the people at the new venue have come from other parts of the business or what have you, is it takes a while to create or implant or or transfer that culture to that new venue because no one knows who's who in the zoo. You hire 30 or 40 people, no one knows who the cool kids are and who who's gonna get along well with others and whatever. And it takes a little while for that to kind of settle. And I think that's the same with the whole the whole kind of um development of the culture as as we've gone along, and it's and it's never done either. Like it's something that we talk about all the time. It's I think one of the things we're hardest on it on each other and ourselves when we don't get it right, which happens. Um, and it's something that we kind of don't want to ever take for granted or assume that everything's all right, because the moment you do that, there's issues all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

100%. It's a continuous evolution and it never stops because you're never there, you never arrive, you never go, oh, here we are, nothing needs to be fixed.

Hiring Early For People And Culture

SPEAKER_01 39:39

And it's not linear either, because it dips, it takes turns for the worst or the better or whatever. But you've got to keep your eye, you can't take your eye off it.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

But but I have to acknowledge it's a very, very profound position to take as a founder or an owner or even in any type of executive leader to be able to admit that the culture isn't a direct result of solely their doing, and not only that, but then on top of that, that I'm gonna give every person in here the keys and the license to impact it. Dude, that's not normal, right? Like, I mean, if I think about all the consulting I do, then like 80% of it is just convincing founders to do that before they get into the word. So, how how did it happen for you? Just even you said it was an evolution. Was there any specific moment that came to mind that kind of prompted it?

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Like, no, no, but you know what? I think it's like JJ and I um and and Steve um along the way, as well as a couple of other you know key people within the organization, from time to time have gone through um some of that fun stuff that I really love, but it sounds like corporate wankery, where you did like the psychometric evaluation and your you know your your styles and your sort of um behavioral styles and all you know, behavioral style inventory, all that sort of stuff. And it's quite interesting because some people are like this is the goal, and this is the goal at any um at any um uh at any cost, and as long as we get there, everything else is gonna be fine. And and that's one type of behavioral style, and then there's another type of behavioural style, which is if we get the right people on board and everybody's kind of connected, then we'll get to the goal no matter what. And it doesn't even matter what the goal is because we'll get there. And and I think that um it takes it takes um you know uh a few different behavioural styles. Like it's it's a little bit like a team. You can't have you know a team full of uh full forwards and you can't have a team full of fullbacks. Exactly, exactly. You need to have different position players, so you need to have different behavioural styles, you need to have different skill sets and um and different ways of so I think um I think it's been somewhat organic, but I I also think that um you know we we we recognize the the need, also just in terms of the evolution, there was a time where our team was quite small, sure, and we knew every single person, and we knew them you know well enough to know their name, know enough about them, and then as we kind of grew, there there comes a time where that's almost impossible to happen. And so you go, well, we don't want to take for granted that we've got this great culture, so we need to some put some processes in place in order to protect that and not just protect it but make sure that it continues like that. And and like like JJ said, we haven't always got it right, and there's been times where we've uh you know gone too far in one direction or the other.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

But but um having that as a as a focus, we invested probably early in a people and culture person.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, got it.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Did you ever meet Roxy?

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Uh I think we did in the beer hall just here and there, but not I didn't have a lot to no, I didn't meet them properly.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

She she was amazing and um worked with us for a long time, and um, and you know, and anyway, so that was that was ahead of the curve. Do you want to talk about a little bit about Roxy and how that sort of Yeah, I mean she it was a kind of planets aligning sort of situation.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

We'd known Roxy for probably 15 years through the beer industry because she'd run um she'd worked in hospitality and run beer um venues predominantly.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um, and then she was at a stage where she was finishing up some studies, she'd finished a psychology degree, she had an interest in HR. Okay, and she it was very early days, first year of stomping ground, and so she was just doing some bar work with us. Yeah, and we were sort of um talking about wanting to get better at our people processes. We'd had a few cracks at performance reviews, not very well.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

We never got them right. Kind of fell by the wayside, too much admin, couldn't do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Um and we we knew we wanted to do it, we didn't know how to do it. Uh well we had a bit of an idea of how to do it, but we needed someone to to own it. Got it. And Rox was in right there in the right frame of mind with the right ideas. Can I check something with you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

What was your headcount at that point?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

It would have been 75, 80, I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Yeah, it was under 100.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Under 100.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

And and was that, and didn't Roxy 60. 60. Was she full-time? She was not to begin with, probably four three or four days to start with, but came became full-time pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, we realized that we really needed it. But it was funny because you know, we were talking about developing people and all that. Um, she said, you know, she was at the bar. I was always a massive fan of hers. And um, she said, I don't know what I'm doing next. I want to really want to do something. I said, Well, if you want to have a chat about it, let's have a chat. Um, and I was more thinking, you know, maybe I can help her decide what she wants to do next, right? Because I really, I really loved it. And and anyway, so there we so we sat down, had a chat, and um she was going and she was saying, These are my interests, this is what I like doing. And I said, you know what? So we've always wanted to do this people process stuff, and we've never had anyone to own it. You would be ideal for it. And she said, I'm I'm up for it. So we basically created this role for her. Amazing. And she, but to her credit, she just took it and ran. We set her up with a mentor. Oh, right. So there was um, there was a um one of our um investors had a um his his partner was the head of HR for a big a big company. Oh wow, so she was a really great mentor. Oh, huge, what a opportunity, but it also takes someone who to actually take advantage of that. So there's lots of mentors willing to give their time, but you need you need to manage up with 100%. So but Roxy was brilliant at that. So she would just catch up and catch up and catch up with Megan and then and she self-educated, yeah, right, like I've never seen anyone do before. She was amazing, and so she's a legend. She just took the bull, um, the the bull by the horns and just created this uh role on this department and just cared so much about the people, and she managed to surf that line, which is a very hard thing that HR people, people and cultural people need to do. They need to be, you know, very aware of what the company needs are, but also very aware of um employee needs.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Totally.

Retention, Compliance, And Trust

SPEAKER_02 45:56

And but it was funny, as soon as we did it, it was almost like so many of our employees just felt like they could offload stuff, and and she became part counselor, part you know, help her. And it really was a step change. And and then she created this department, and then she went and had kids a couple of times and had a maternity leave each time. And the people that she found to replace herself during maternity leave were brilliant. Amazing, brilliant, wow, and so we and and and Shawnee, who's now um uh in that role, was originally a contract role while um Roxy was in uh on maternity leave, and then Roxy came back, and then when Roxy left, we we said, Shawnee, are you still votable and Shani came back? So it is so anyway, so she created this department. Shani's been you know um taken it over since and is fantastic as well. So we the the whole point is that we recognized the need for it early, and we recognize that we didn't necessarily have the skills to do it ourselves, even though we placed importance on it. Yep. So I think we invested ahead of the curve.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

And apart from just the cultural part of that, I think the compliance side of it, we was a fortunate kind of side effect of that that we got ahead of as well. And through that period with all the high-profile kind of um issues with wage theft and and those sorts of things, that some of which were kind of just um uh what's the word? Careless, careless rather than malicious. Um, you could see how that could have happened easily had we not got our shit together a bit earlier, and Roxy was a huge part of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

You were less exposed if it if exposed at all to it because you had someone gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Yeah, being really compliant, and sometimes it annoys us, like you know, it's like why do we have to always do everything one bloody book?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

You know, but then you go, Thank thank goodness we do. Yeah, we can't. Can I ask as well, was that what was the leadership team like? Was that the first real leadership role that did you already have a head of marketing and a CFO and whatnot before Roxy?

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Definitely not a CFO. I think we might have had no, we didn't have anyone, did we?

SPEAKER_02 47:54

No, she helped us actually then find some heads of amazing because she was the first head of position. Yes, yeah, amazing. I mean, other than venue managers who are heads of their venue.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

No, but I I mean more in terms of like um like head office, the C-suite kind of right, like head office. She was the first. See, that is cool. So that that's very, very unique, right? Because most businesses don't scale that way. Um, one business that scaled that way is Nike, right? Where the first, when they were sort of went into global retail, the first position they hired was the head of culture, right? Who uh and there's there's a whole story there, but it's rare to find other people that have done that. I can give you a list of a thousand people off the top of my head that have made that role the last role they invest in. And even just um this week on the podcast, we released an episode with Kate Hamathi from Zest People, and I was asking her my experience is that every business I sort of go look at or consult for, there's always an under-resourcing of that department or the function within the business that is meant to be looking after that, right? So even if you're outsourcing it, it's super, super under-resourced, right? And and when I told her, she was like, Oh my god, there's probably HR people driving in their cars right now, going like, hallelujah. You guys went the complete opposite way.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Yeah, and but you we did, um it's interesting that you say that because the it is often a um there's a lot of things that they do that go unnoticed that is why they end up under resourced, I reckon. Yeah, for sure. The little phone calls and text messages late at night, that's where they support people, the the just the um sheer labour that goes into recruitment, which is huge and the time-consuming nature of that. The compliance piece, the compliance as well. And so I think you look at it and it does like from the outside looking in, may not look like a lot of work, and therefore you don't throw out a lot of resources at it. But if you actually sit down and think about everything that they're doing, um it is an area that needs resources.

Scaling Without Losing The Soul

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Man, it and it moves the need. I mean, you know, I could easily show you in the majority of audits that I do, right? I can easily pinpoint to the people I'm doing it for how you know, here is say 68 points of attention that you need to look at. And of those 68, 67 of them would have been negated if you had a resource to that department adequately.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

I think the other thing is we know the importance of retention of great people. Yes, and there's no question that without um Roxy and then um people in that role subsequently, we would have lost great people that we would have rather kept because we wouldn't have had the finger on the pulse to the you know, the the temperature check of every team that um that our people and culture team has always had. They'll come to us very quickly with just a few comments from a certain team. Culture's a bit off.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

There's there's something not quite right here because you know, people aren't quite happy about this or that. We need to pay some attention there. Wow and then you think that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

And then you start having those conversations, then you talk directly to the people involved in a casual kind of way before the you know the molehill becomes a mountain or whatever, whatever it is. And I I'm certain I know for a fact that some some great people would have left disgruntled um had we not been able to solve some problems and and actually retain them.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Okay, so uh the question I want to ask you, I feel like you just answered it, but I'm curious to know if you want to add any extra layers, right? People always freak out about scale and the damage it's gonna do to the DNA of the company, right? Like in so many of the meetings I have, I I always I laugh sometimes just in my own head, right? About when people say to me, Oh, but we don't want to be too corporate. And and I kind of think about that, I kind of go, man, that's like me saying, I really want to like get better at cooking, but I don't I don't really want to be getting Michelin stars and shit.

SPEAKER_04 51:49

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 51:50

It's like, bro, how about just focus on doing it well before you worry about it becoming corporate, right? Yeah, and I mean there's there's businesses out there that are amazing at what they do that are actively trying to be more corporate and not achieving it. And you know, you're sitting there and you don't even have job descriptions, right? So it's like so there's this there's this misnomer out there that like scale equals you know, a a downsizing corporation, but also a dilution of the DNA. And you've clearly been able to avoid that happening. And I think you just stated very clearly how, like what I heard from it was that you invested early, right? And way ahead of those checkpoints, like to the milestones what I was asking you is because usually they say you should have one person for every 80 to 120 employees, and then that's a quota, right? So so you guys did it at like 60, and then you kind of built from there. But outside of just investing in it early, what else could you point at that's enabled you, or is it just that? Is it just that you got that house in order so early that you never had to worry about scaling, diluting the DNA?

SPEAKER_01 52:53

No, I don't think it's just that. I reckon it's um I reckon we we consider it, we consider that whole sort of piece culture when we make big decisions all the time. Okay, and so it's we don't just even and when it might be a simple thing like we're opening a new venue, we need a critical mass of our DNA from other venues in there without ripping the culture out of the other venues. Um so we hit the ground running with some of that culture already there. That's one example. I think I can think of other examples where we were contemplating at one point going 24 hours in the brewery because um we were you know out of capacity and the only way to kind of meet the volume was to do that, and we and we didn't for the reason that it was we thought that was going to hurt people culturally, and you know, it was and we'd spoke to a few other people that had done it.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

And it's hard, it's hard on people doing night night shifts.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Totally and on a spreadsheet, it just makes sense because you've got another eight hours in the day, why don't you use it? And but the the cultural implications of that or the and and the impact that it would have on people, um we just weren't willing to to do. And I so they're just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Could I argue though that you you were so well poised to make those decisions so uh easily or emphatically as you did, because that standard of culture was so ingrained.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Well, it was definitely a contributing factor because I mean we sometimes get frustrated or get accused of being a little bit uh decision by committee. Okay. Um and but we do really give a shit about what the you know the key people in our in our organizations think. Yeah, sure. So sometimes before making big decisions, we definitely tend to get some opinions, and um sometimes to our detriment because sometimes you just need to make a decision because this is what's happening. Sorry. Yeah, but um, but we do tend to get a lot of uh opinions, and um, and so I think often what happens is we get to we get to a point where we think you know we've considered those opinions and we're not making a decision without having thought it through. Um and you know, maybe some yeah, but but so that's so that's that's a positive. But the the thing I'd say is that we're not necessarily we I don't see us as having scaled. Well yeah, that was one of the things when I was thinking about it. I don't think we've scaled yet. Yeah, what's our headcount now? Well about 160 years, 160, 170, something maybe.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Um I think I thought exactly the same thing when you mentioned scale. I don't think we've scaled yet. It's all relative. We've tripled it. Yeah, it is, it's relative, but uh like when I think of scale, I think of like much bigger.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

But and the other thing I'd say about uh corporatization, or you know, I think it's interesting because I I had a um I I hope he doesn't mind me talking about it, but I I caught up with the um uh the general manager of the Trader House group recently. Oh yeah um Chris. We we had a mutual contact and so we caught up and um and I met him and he's a really impressive guy. Yeah and um I love their operation, like it's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Totally.

Professionalising, Not Corporatising

SPEAKER_02 55:51

And they've all you know, obviously got some pretty iconic um uh restaurants and and and uh operations, and then the trader house group, which is not a yeah, they are which is got the you know, the trader house group, which is um um it's not a brand, it's just what the corporate parent company and and they are super super professional. I wouldn't necessarily say corporate, but super professional in everything that they do. Um but that's not visible to the consumer, the customer who's just going into you know builders' arms or going into gimlet or whatever. Yeah, um, they're just um you know they just see gimlet and they just see you know um and and I think uh from our point of view, um we like that concept of being professional and and and getting as much process driven as we can in the back of house, but it's not necessarily about what the the consumer sees. Um so it's about professionalizing rather than corporatizing.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

And I think we probably um bring people along for the ride a fair bit as well and involve them in decision making. And I I don't think we're erratic and things don't sort of come out of nowhere, so people are kind of largely on board with most things that are going on most of the time because they're being.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

We don't have an ERP, like we're still using zero, okay. We're still we've got like every um, we've got like a whole bunch of what we like to think of as best in class cloud-based um uh sort of systems. Sure. Um, some of them integrate with one another, some of them don't, but it does create some uh challenges in terms of processes, and we're always trying to find ways of doing things better, and we're far from at the best place we could possibly be. There's so much opportunity for improvement.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

You you could you could, you know, you just mentioned Trader House, and we both said they're elite, they would say the same thing. Possibly no one's ever done the start. Hey, so this run sheet went out the window about 40 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

It was always going, yeah, it was always funny.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

But I've got I reckon I've only got time for one more question, and I'm a bit devo about it because I feel like well, maybe it's a good thing, otherwise we'd be here till seven o'clock tonight. But I so the question I'll ask you is a bit of a continuation on from this idea of like culture, scale, and and even corporatization to a degree, right? And it's about governance, okay, which is a super corporate word. Okay, but I haven't yet found a better one, you know, as corporate as it is and intimidating as it is. And when you think about governance and you think about the subsequent strategy that culminates from governance, good governance or bad, um, I believe it's uh it's often the most overlooked stakeholder group in the organization. Okay, and at least in Hospo, anyway, and and probably in a bunch of AFL clubs. Um but I'm curious to know how do you guys approach the management of the governance of your organization? And for context, when I say governance, let's just look at it as simply as like is the ownership group adopting all the basic operating principles that a board would yes.

Governance That Actually Helps

SPEAKER_02 59:07

So I mean, so it's a great question, and I couldn't agree with you more, often overlooked, super important. And we are very lucky that when we set up Stomping Ground in 2016, we brought an outside investor uh outside investors in. Cool. And one of the outside investors um had a lot of experience in this exact area and has been the chairman of our board ever since. Still, and he's still well, he took a break for a while, but he's back as the chairman now. Amazing. Um, and as a result, um we operate like a proper board. So we meet once a month. Okay. We have our now, sometimes our reports are a little bit late, but they're they always get done. Yeah. Um and they all so we you know, we produce a PL and a balance sheet every single month. We have um uh, you know, we we we produce a board report every single month. We meet, we have minutes, we we do all those sorts of things, we make decisions um as as a board. Right. Um and that who's in the meeting? Um, well, now there's only three board members, Justin, myself, and Mike, the um our our um chairman. Yeah, um Leslie, he's um he's uh C O O C O O. Um she always gets employee of the month because she's she's his only employee. Oh sorry, she's all um, although um Chat GPT is starting to make a company apparently, but um no, but she um she's awesome because she's like a um she's got a um a um what's it MBA and uh is you know is is a very very switched on person as well. So she's a great resource as well, not in the business, but a really great resource. So I lean on her a lot for a lot of financial stuff and checking numbers and checking my spreadsheets and all that sort of stuff. Um, and you know, getting some really good advice from her. Like Mike will give us some really great high-level insights, and then when it comes to the detail, Leslie and I will work on it a lot more. Um, but uh and yeah, so Justin and I and uh Mike are on the board now. Um Steve used to be on the board as well. Of course. Um he resigned from the board um about uh six months ago, maybe a bit more. Um and um yeah, because he yeah, because he's he's um sort of pursuing other other interests, but um, yeah, so it's it's a it's a short, sharp um you know, board, but yeah, it it we still operate like a proper board.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

I love that. So I've got to ask you the question then. I know I said that was gonna be my last one. So no one else does this, okay? Legit. No one does this, right? And I'm talking about you know, companies that are like in the 30, 40, 50 mil, right? I and uh you don't have to disclose what you guys are at, but whatever you are at, right? No one's doing it. And so you're doing it, and I would have to say, as unromantic as it might sound, I would bet my bottom dollar on it that a very, very significant part of your success is has been enabled because of this discipline, right? And what I would love you to speak to if you can, is for all the other people that are running similar businesses to you or not, right, that are not doing this, how would you encourage them to do it? What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

Well the first thing I'd say is that they're the only time you ever really need it is when the shit hits the fan. And when the shit hits the fan, um, and if it ever shoots hit shit ever hits the fan, whether it's uh you know, that that's when you want to be able to go, look, we've done everything right from a compliance point of view, we've ticked all the boxes, we we've got we've got it miniature, we've got it all sort of um, and that way a disgruntled shareholder might, you know, there's just no, there's just it's all done by the book. Um, same with the bank, same with uh, you know, the ATO, same with all this sort of stuff. When everything is done by the book, you know, I think a lot of business people might be listening to this and going, yeah, but you know, you can get away with so much, and you can, you can, but we do absolutely everything like it's almost embarrassing. We do everything by the book, and we probably shoot ourselves in the foot for doing it. It's probably against our nature, to be honest. But yeah, like in my other like non-business life, I break the rules all the time. But for this, for whatever reason, we do absolutely everything by the book, and it makes um it helps you sleep at night. And so, in answer to your question, um, you know, how do they go about it or why should they go about it? It's it's to protect yourself um as you know, as a as a director specifically, um, from any kind of liability from not doing the right thing. Totally. Um, and and then um and how do you do it? You if if you've done nothing, or you just gotta you just gotta start. Totally right. You just gotta start just have a crack. Take one one step at a time and just and to the point where you've got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Yeah. I mean, I've seen I've seen a lot of people that have embarked on the journey and made the fatal mistake of not electing a solid chair. And most of the time they do that. Like you guys are really lucky that you had someone in the group who's like, I'll do that. Most people suck at chairing boards, it's really hard. Like, it's I don't know why. Everyone just thinks it's like, oh, I'll just do that when I retire, and it's a good it's so hard, and you just need a different skin to do it. And then often what happens is they'll go, Yeah, yeah, all right, I I should we should run our business like this. So they'll start to do it, but then no one's chairing it and it just falls apart. Um, and so it's yeah, it's interesting that like I think even despite that, it's like if you if you have a crack, it you're gonna find out if that's a gap for you or not. And if it is, the the easiest thing in the world to do is just get someone to come in and do that one role. So then you can just be on the board as an advisor, right? And this is what you're gonna do. So you just put one post on LinkedIn and you'll have like 17 people putting their hand up, and they'll probably be more suited to it. So it's great. So can you can you give me something? Um so what I heard in what you said is that it's a great risk mitigator. Yeah, what about something operational?

Board Cadence, Clarity, And Development

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Well, uh, what I was gonna say, two things. First of all, our board um hasn't always been as uh as as functional as it is right now. Yeah, okay. There's been times where it's been a little bit sort of chaotic and a little bit sort of um getting down into the weeds a little bit too much. Um and a proper board should really operate as as you know, really setting strategy. Yeah. And then the next level down um should be very much more operational. So the C suite should be all execution and the board should all be strategy. Yeah. Um and we're kind of uh when we've got when we've got a small board and we're not a big company, um, what often happens and And we are the executive and on the board. We're both yeah, we wear both hats. We both wear the director hat and the executive hat. Um as a result, um, we do our board meetings tend to be a bit more hybrid than pure strategy and pure operations. We kind of um uh straddle both. Yep. And um and that's okay because we're not. Um we're not a massive corporate, you know. So we kind of uh that that's just the way it goes, but we cover but we do cover both, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

So that's I mean that can be a good thing, like as long as you're covering the basics, then yeah, have a bit of crossover, it can be fine. But I've also got a good solve for you on that, but I'll save it for another time. Okay. Well, what about for you, Jesse? If you got a is there something that you can point to that's like, hey, is there has there been a moment along the journey where you're like, I'm so outside of a risk mitigation thing, we've just been like, I'm so glad that we do operate that way at a board level?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Um, yeah, I think well, I think it sort of is um is a discipline that probably um without which maybe some of the next level down wouldn't have the same discipline, if you know what I mean. So because we've got that monthly cadence and because we've got those reports that we've got to produce, and because we know we're gonna have to answer questions at the end of the month, it informs you know how you approach day-to-day, week to week sort of stuff. And I think if you didn't have that, it's and it that's not to suggest that it's hanging over you like this, like this grim reaper that you've got to um worry about. It's more it's a discipline, then and then that pattern infiltrates the rest of the way you operate. Yeah, very good, very good point. And the other thing I would say is that it you I think some of it is a perception thing as well. And we're we've been really fortunate with Mike in that we keep him really close to the business, as close as he wants to be, or as far away as he wants to be, depending on what else he's got going on. He's got a lot going on in other business interests and what have you. But I think some people might perceive it to be um sort of a governance um uh tool that is trying to tell them what to do. And I think if you set it up right and it's you have the right partners and the right people involved, it's an addition to the business that's helpful as opposed to something, someone or something criticizing how you're running the business.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

Because experientially for me, I've seen it all at that level, right? So I've as an executive reporting to boards, I've been an executive where that structure's not there, been an executive where the structure is there. But I've also been on the board, right? Where the where this where it's a good structure and a bad structure. So seen a lot of different dimensions of how this stuff can work. And on the executive side, right? So someone as someone reporting to a board, it actually doesn't matter for me if I'm when I think back at it, okay, okay, all the times I've reported to a board and had my ass handed to me or gotten a really good pat on the back, I walk away on both of those instances, feeling a sense of safety and security and support. And that in itself, for a person in an executive position, is worth its weight in gold, right? Because within the first seven minutes of your day, every day, you're gonna have to be dealing with decision fatigue, right? And it is and it's constant, right? And sometimes you just need that time out, even if it is just once a month, it's informal, but you're sitting down with someone who is not directly in the business, right? They've got that perspective, and you can go, that's what I fucking think. And they can either just validate it or challenge it. You walk away from that with better perspective, right? You walk away from that with a better ability to make those more optimized granular decisions day to day, which then has that flow on that you're talking about.

Wrap Up And Part Two Tease

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

Yeah, and I think I think also and it sort of uh following on from that, it's a great development opportunity for people in the team as well. And we use it, but we're using it better now than we have done probably in the past, for someone like a marketing manager to come and present to the board. This is what I've been up to for the last three months, six months, this is what's coming up, and it keeps the board really well informed, but it gets um that person in that role an opportunity to present to another audience. So it it's a huge development opportunity for them. And we're trying to get our key people in one person at a time into each board meeting to do something like that and present and really kind of um yeah, show what they're made of, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

To actually that was something that we we had a CEO um who had an experienced CEO, we had him for a couple of years, yeah. Um, and he added a lot of value in the two years that he was with us. Um, and he um he actually helped us elevate the whole executive board cool uh function. Yeah, um and and also brought in that he called it a spotlight um thing where we brought in some people to present to um give them the development opportunity and also to um you know show the board what's happening down on the ground from not just from the the usual suspects, yeah, yeah. Um and that was really valuable and and something that we've adopted and and hung on to since he's um since he's moved on.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

Amazing. Man, I hate to have to wrap this up, but I've got to go from Brunswick to Eltham to Morty Alleg for my son's skate class.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

Well, that's part two next week. Do you want to do a part two? 100%. We're still gonna talk about brands.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

We're still gonna talk about uh and man, I'm just looking at all these questions I didn't ask you. So we'll do a part two. Yeah, awesome legends. Thanks for today. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Cheers. Awesome, mate, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

No, anytime.