Building a Community-First Brand with Stomping Ground

In this episode of the PAX Hospitality Podcast, we sit down with Guy and Justin, the visionary founders behind Stomping Ground Brewing Co. and The Local Taphouse. While many businesses stumble during the transition from startup to industry pillar, these legends explain the specific frameworks that kept them grounded.

The conversation unpacks their "reason for being," the early investment in a dedicated People and Culture function, and the surprisingly simple way they use a brand book to filter out noise and prevent decision fatigue. From delivering emergency kegs in a car during a Grand Final to the academic rigor of monthly board meetings, this episode is a masterclass in balancing authenticity with governance and provides a practical roadmap for building a business that people truly love.

For more information on PAX , visit pax.melbourne

Follow @pax.melbourne on social media.

Podcast produced by Posterboy Media.

PAX acknowledges the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people as the traditional custodians of the land on which we operate. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to all First Nations People.

Transcript

PAX - EPISODE 2 

[00:00:00] Speaker: Season two of the Pax Hospitality Podcast is brought to you by OpenTable. [00:00:05]

[00:00:05] Speaker 2: Hello Pax listeners, welcome to another episode. This one's [00:00:10] awesome. It's with the amazing legends at Stomping Ground, but it needs a [00:00:15] little bit of explanation. So for those of you that are paying attention, you probably noticed this week [00:00:20] that we released two episodes.

It's gonna be this one on video and then there's an audio [00:00:25] only version. So the backstory to this is that we were really, really keen to [00:00:30] record an episode with the boys at Stomping Ground. And so we did it right. We did it last year, [00:00:35] but that was before we knew we were gonna be doing all of this, alright?

And we thought, cool, let's just [00:00:40] do the audio. And at the time we decided to do like a part one and a part two. Life kind of [00:00:45] got in the way. It was kind of crazy trying to do it that close to Christmas. And we ended up with this big block in [00:00:50] between when we did the first part and when we wanted to do the second part.

So in that block is where we also [00:00:55] decided to, um, lean on the guys at Poster Boy to do all of this and kind of go next level [00:01:00] with the podcast in general. Um, and so therefore we ended up with a part one that's audio [00:01:05] only and a part two that is video. So we weren't really sure what to do with that. We weren't [00:01:10] sure, um, the best way to deal with it.

So in the end we just said, Hey, let's just release 'em both in the same [00:01:15] week. So if you haven't heard part one, that's totally cool, right? This is pretty self-contained. You [00:01:20] can listen to this episode, um, as it is, and you're going to hear some absolute pearls of [00:01:25] wisdom, some really good truth bombs, and some really, really practical information that's gonna help you [00:01:30] in your business.

But I still, that said, I still do recommend going [00:01:35] back and listening to part one because it was just a straight up cracker, right? [00:01:40] Absolutely amazing conversation. Again, you know, deeper wisdom, deeper [00:01:45] truth bombs, just really good insights into what has helped. These guys become such pillars of the [00:01:50] community.

So go back and listen. Um, hopefully you listen to them both. Um, but yeah, otherwise, really hope you [00:01:55] enjoy, uh, the video episode today. Um, last thing I'll say in the intro is again, [00:02:00] thanks for listening. Um, we are loving the people that are reaching out to us. We're loving [00:02:05] your inputs. So hello at Pax Melbourne.

Drop us a line. We, [00:02:10] we wanna hear from you. If you've got tips, if you've got things you're enjoying about the [00:02:15] show, if you wanna fight us on stuff, bring it right, like hit us up. Um, it's been so [00:02:20] good to connect with people in the community. Really hope you enjoy the episode today. [00:02:25] Welcome again. Thanks, man.

To a new space. This is [00:02:30] a classic way to do things for a bunch of reasons, because we did part one, [00:02:35] which by the way, was awesome. I listened to it two days ago. Oh

[00:02:39] Speaker 3: yeah,

[00:02:39] Speaker 2: yeah, [00:02:40] because I was like, oh, I should probably do that before putting this little run sheet together. Because [00:02:45] before I listened to it, I was like, I cannot remember, right.

[00:02:48] Speaker 3: Anything that we,

[00:02:48] Speaker 2: about, what the hell did we talk [00:02:50] about? You know? But what I did was I actually jotted down what I did remember from it. And that's [00:02:55] what I thought was like the most important bit, just to kind of recap.

[00:02:58] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:58] Speaker 2: Because what actually did [00:03:00] stand out for, even before I listened back to it, right, the things that did stand out for me that I thought we're [00:03:05] very awesome.

And when I say that, I mean I put on like my consultant hat [00:03:10] and, you know, um, with taking away any sensitivity, look at you guys as a, as [00:03:15] another case, right? In all the cases I've read and go, wow, look at what you've done [00:03:20] differently that most other people haven't, because I'm always looking for that.

Mm-hmm. And going, okay, do you do something that's a little [00:03:25] bit unconventional? And then does that equal something tangibly successful? And then is [00:03:30] that repeatable, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's, that's always the, the selfish lens. I'm always trying to apply to these things. And [00:03:35] the things I took away, you know, from the chat with you guys was when we started talking about mission and [00:03:40] purpose, you know?

And that was really cool because. Clearly you guys are so in [00:03:45] touch with it, you know? But it was really awesome to have that discussion from the lens of [00:03:50] like, you know, putting words in your mouth here, but, you know, creating memorable [00:03:55] moments for people

[00:03:55] Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

[00:03:56] Speaker 2: That then bring communities together and [00:04:00] doing that from the sense of like, it's not just for customers and the wider public, it's for staff, it's for [00:04:05] suppliers, it's for all the stakeholders.

And what was really interesting to [00:04:10] me that I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on was, it was so, um, [00:04:15] revealing to me, like, I know you guys so well, right? Mm-hmm. But hearing that, [00:04:20] it just made me go, ah, it all makes sense. Yeah. It's almost like this inner stitching that [00:04:25] on a couple dimensions. One for the business right now, when I look at like all the decisions you've made around the [00:04:30] business and in the last session we talked about the irrational decisions.

Mm-hmm. They all suddenly [00:04:35] become really rational when you look at it through that lens.

[00:04:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm.

[00:04:38] Speaker 2: And but also as individuals, right? [00:04:40] Like you guys are pretty different blokes.

[00:04:41] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Do

[00:04:41] Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like I, I, I don't think if you didn't know each other, I [00:04:45] can't imagine I'd be at a party with you and go, oh, I gotta introduce you to my mate, guy.[00:04:50]

[00:04:51] Speaker 3: We just went Canberra together. I I came off second back. [00:04:55]

[00:04:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. You didn't end up in surgery. That's right. But yeah, but when I think about [00:05:00] that sentence, I'm like, yeah, mate, two peas in a pod. Mm. Like, it really does connect you. So, [00:05:05] I don't know, did you, what, what do you take from that?

[00:05:08] Speaker 3: Uh, as in, as in [00:05:10] the, the fact that we st strong on purpose or the fact that, um, you wouldn't have thought initially that [00:05:15] we, um, uh, would necessarily kind of be, you know,

[00:05:18] Speaker 2: maybe like, [00:05:20] what I'd be really, I mean, I, I'd love to know all, all of those things, but, but maybe specifically like [00:05:25] that purpose stated in those words.

Mm-hmm. You know, does that. Is [00:05:30] that something that, have you got that written down somewhere?

[00:05:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, we do.

[00:05:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:33] Speaker: It's funny how similar that is [00:05:35] to what we do have written down. We might adopt yours 'cause it probably sounds a little bit better than ours. A bit [00:05:40] wordy.

[00:05:40] Speaker 3: Yeah. Our, ours a bit word, but we've been saying the same thing for a very long time.

And, and the [00:05:45] interesting thing is that when we came up with the first statement, we actually [00:05:50] went aside and, um, and kind of challenged ourselves to come up with what we were all [00:05:55] about individually, like not together.

[00:05:57] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:57] Speaker 3: And then bring it back to the table.

[00:05:59] Speaker 2: Oh. That's what

[00:05:59] Speaker 3: we [00:06:00] hear. To discuss it and to say, you know, where's the o And it was remarkably similar.[00:06:05]

[00:06:05] Speaker 2: Wait, when, when you say we,

[00:06:06] Speaker 3: me, Justin, and Steve.

[00:06:07] Speaker 2: Okay. And how did you do the individual [00:06:10] version?

[00:06:10] Speaker 3: Oh, we, we basically went and wrote it down and sort of said, this is, oh, cool. So it wasn't

[00:06:13] Speaker 2: facilitated or

[00:06:14] Speaker 3: anything, [00:06:15] you just No, no, we just did it ourselves and said, okay, what does it, you know, what does it mean?

[00:06:18] Speaker 2: How long did it take? Sorry, I'll

[00:06:19] Speaker 3: gee [00:06:20] on this shit. It was pretty, it was pretty quick. Like we, uh, I. It was so long ago, to be [00:06:25] honest, I can't, I can't even remember the exact circumstances. Yeah. All I remember is that we, we [00:06:30] went away, challenged ourselves to do that and then come back and say, you know [00:06:35] how, you know, what, what's it all about?

And it was exactly a workshop around purpose, around love it. You know, what, what are we reason

[00:06:39] Speaker: [00:06:40] for being?

[00:06:40] Speaker 3: Our reason for being? We, we, we then started calling it our reason for being

[00:06:44] Speaker 2: Awesome. Were you [00:06:45] using any frameworks or toolkits or No shit,

[00:06:48] Speaker 3: nothing. You just went No, but we, but [00:06:50] well, I suppose, I mean, I'm, I'm a bit of a geek like you when it comes to this stuff.

I think I [00:06:55] told you in the last, um, episode that I like all the self-help books and I read 'em all and you know, there's that [00:07:00] classic, uh, Simon is a Sinek. Simon

[00:07:02] Speaker 2: Sinek.

[00:07:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. And he does that whole, whole circle the [00:07:05] y circles, and then you go down to the Y

[00:07:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:07:07] Speaker 3: So that, that, so you using that as a got, so that [00:07:10] was the concept like okay, that that's the what the product, the how and all that sort of stuff.

But the why cool, I [00:07:15] think is the thing. And you know that that's the nugget I got from his piece. And so we always wanted [00:07:20] to kind of. Um, you know, hang onto that why mm-hmm. And, and really have a clear [00:07:25] why. And so our statement was, um, to share our love of great beer [00:07:30] with as many in the community as possible through consistently exceptional experiences.[00:07:35]

Wow. Okay. Got it. And, and that's why, that's why JJ was just saying it was pretty wordy. Yeah. Um, that that was [00:07:40] the version where we collated all three of ours together. Mm-hmm. And we, and each one of them, [00:07:45] uh, had each one of those words, has a whole bunch behind [00:07:50] it. So, um, so share is a, is a word about sort of.[00:07:55]

Bringing people together, taking people along for the ride, being inclusive, that [00:08:00] sharing.

[00:08:00] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:00] Speaker 3: Um, love, it's a word, a passion, you know, everyone gets passionate. We [00:08:05] wanted people to be passionate about what we do.

[00:08:06] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:07] Speaker 3: Um, uh, great beer. We wanted to [00:08:10] sidestep the whole issue of, uh, craft beer or Gotcha.

Or what is, we just want a great beer. Yeah. Let's [00:08:15] just, let's just call it great beer. Love that. We just love great beer and let, we wanna share that love of great beer.

[00:08:19] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:08:19] Speaker 3: [00:08:20] Um, with as many in our community, um, as, as possible was all about. [00:08:25] Um, so community's at the heart of a lot of what we do.

[00:08:27] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Speaker 3: And we always talk about community in [00:08:30] sort of concentric circles.

So immediately immediate circles, your family, your own family. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then the [00:08:35] next one is your working family, and then the next one is your, um, you know, your place in the suburb [00:08:40] mm-hmm. On the town. And the next one is in the city. Mm-hmm. And then it goes all the way out, um, as you zoom [00:08:45] out to global citizen.

Yeah. Right. And how, how do we make a difference? And from a sustainability point [00:08:50] of view, because that's community.

[00:08:51] Speaker 2: Yep.

[00:08:53] Speaker 3: And we wanted to make it a [00:08:55] big community because we wanted just, you know, we just wanted to widen the audience and really kind of go [00:09:00] for, uh, like, but when you look at it in those concentric circles, I think you've got those touch points of [00:09:05] like, um, small community family, but all the way out to, you know, I

[00:09:08] Speaker 2: mean, it's such a deep [00:09:10] concept, but why this is blowing my mind is because, man, you could [00:09:15] engage a strategy consultant and pay 'em 30 grand and they might not tick those boxes [00:09:20] as well as you did.

I'll put it into perspective, right? Imagine if I said to you, I've never brewed [00:09:25] beer before. But I just had a crack, you know, I just, I just went in my backyard and had a crack and I [00:09:30] busted out this lagger and it won best lagger in. And you'd just feel like, how the fuck did you do it? That's [00:09:35] exactly what you've done.

[00:09:35] Speaker 3: Right? Well, maybe, I mean, look, I think it could be more concise. I [00:09:40] think it could, but I mean, the nice thing is, I think we talked about it last time, is when we do [00:09:45] interviews with staff. Mm. Um, and we, we invite people to work with us. We [00:09:50] talk about this reason for being and this sense of purpose, and, uh, and we [00:09:55] can see if it resonates with that person.

Yeah. And we, and we actually ask them, does that resonate with you? Mm. And when they [00:10:00] kind of go, I love that.

[00:10:01] Speaker: Yeah.

[00:10:02] Speaker 3: I think I wanna be a part of that. Yeah. We know that, you know, this is, [00:10:05] they've kind of connected with it. Yes. And um, and. I think just, I like, people [00:10:10] can work, you know, they can work for money. Um, they can work 'cause they need a job.[00:10:15]

Mm. But when they work because they believe in the purpose mm-hmm. That's just next level then. Yeah. [00:10:20] Then you get a lot more.

[00:10:21] Speaker: I think the community part of that reason for being, has [00:10:25] only grown, um, more so than anything else in there, I think as well. And I [00:10:30] think you talk about concentric circles, but they're probably now a Venn diagram [00:10:35] of all these various communities that we are now sort of tapped into that [00:10:40] overlap and where they come together is kind of, you know, where the magic [00:10:45] happens.

[00:10:45] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's wild though. Like, so, you know, when, when you talk about [00:10:50] that, you know, the, the academic piece that I hear in my head says, I can't remember the name of the person, but they coined a term [00:10:55] called, um, discretional energy.

[00:10:57] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] Speaker 2: Compared to this before.

[00:10:58] Speaker 3: No.

[00:10:58] Speaker 2: So all, every [00:11:00] employee on the planet has this thing called discretional energy.

Right. It's it's [00:11:05] energy that they will only use at their discretion. You can't put it in your policy book, you [00:11:10] can't make them use it. Mm. They'll either choose to use that extra bit of energy in their [00:11:15] pursuit of good work, or they won't. Mm. Right. And the, and the thing that, um, it doesn't [00:11:20] solve it completely, but it puts you on the right track to getting the most amount of people using that [00:11:25] discretional energy is resignation with the purpose.

With

[00:11:28] Speaker 3: the purpose.

[00:11:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. A hundred percent. So if you don't even have that [00:11:30] articulated

[00:11:30] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:11:31] Speaker 2: You're just hoping for the best. Right. Yeah. Then once you do have it articulated, the [00:11:35] best place that I've ever used it is exactly what you're talking about in that first interview.

[00:11:39] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:39] Speaker 2: Like, it's not [00:11:40] like, you know, often you look at interview templates and it's all about drilling the person.

Mm-hmm.

[00:11:44] Speaker 3: [00:11:45] You

[00:11:45] Speaker 2: know, but, uh, to me it's like you flip that and you start by going, this is who we are. This is our reason for being, and [00:11:50] then you kind of see what they got.

[00:11:51] Speaker 3: Absolutely.

[00:11:52] Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something we've, we've done for a long [00:11:55] time now.

[00:11:55] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:11:55] Speaker: It's almost, it's, it's, it's a part [00:12:00] sort of sales pitch for us about what we're about and part sussing.

[00:12:05] What this person is gonna be able to add to that. Mm. So rather than them just necessarily [00:12:10] being a good cultural fit, what are they actually gonna bring that's actually gonna even improve the culture even more. [00:12:15]

[00:12:15] Speaker 2: Yep.

Yep.

[00:12:15] Speaker 3: And how and how do we put the onus on them to say, listen, our culture is not something that happened by accident.

Yeah. You're [00:12:20] responsible for it as well, but just on that sales pitch piece, it's quite funny. Have you ever been in an interview [00:12:25] where someone comes along and in the first five minutes you know that they're just not the one? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And then you've gotta go, shit, I've gotta [00:12:30] sit through, gotta get through the rest of this 45 minute time slot.

[00:12:33] Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

[00:12:33] Speaker 3: Um,

[00:12:34] Speaker 2: and that's try [00:12:35] to just have a bit of fun with it.

[00:12:36] Speaker 3: So we, we've got the, the code. I should probably shouldn't say you or you go. [00:12:40] Right. So have you've got any more questions for us? And, and that's, that's when, you know, it's kind of, that's kind of Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:45] But um, but I guess we always see those as opportunity.

'cause you wanna always [00:12:50] treat people with respect.

[00:12:50] Speaker 2: Yes.

[00:12:51] Speaker 3: Even the people that aren't right for whatever reason. Mm. Um, they might be in a different [00:12:55] part of their journey. They might have totally different skillset set and they might not be right for us and vice versa. But they're still [00:13:00] a human being, right?

Mm-hmm. So, um, it's always an opportunity for us, and that's where the, the cell [00:13:05] piece comes in. Mm-hmm. We know they're not gonna work for us. We know, we knew that in the first five minutes. Yeah. But here's an [00:13:10] opportunity for us to make them feel good. Yes. To tell 'em what we're about. Hopefully [00:13:15] that kind of, they understand something about who we are and what we stand for.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe [00:13:20] when they're talking to someone else out in the, out in the wild Mm. You know, they can sort of say, oh, stomping ground's got [00:13:25] this great sense of purpose.

[00:13:26] Speaker 2: Do, do you also ever see it as, um, an [00:13:30] opportunity to maybe sway someone that is like, probably never gonna be swayed? It's like a [00:13:35] free

[00:13:35] Speaker 3: hit, as in to come to us or into beer, you mean?

Or,

[00:13:37] Speaker 2: or No, no. Just to think about, like, say, say for instance you've [00:13:40] got this really clear purpose statement and you, and you start the, the meeting with it. The interview with it and it just [00:13:45] doesn't resonate.

[00:13:46] Speaker 3: Mm.

[00:13:46] Speaker 2: And do you ever kind of see like, okay, I can use this time to try to [00:13:50] get 'em excited about this organically?

They never would.

[00:13:54] Speaker 3: I dunno. I'm [00:13:55] not sure. I think maybe earlier right now I'm going like, I've got things to do. [00:14:00] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:01] Speaker 2: Well it's funny 'cause I had this, um, amazing [00:14:05] privilege many years ago of working with this, um, executive coach. And we did [00:14:10] this similar thing around like the purpose finding stuff. I've done a bunch of them, right?

And, and his one was [00:14:15] pretty good. I really did enjoy it. And one of the sessions was, um, he called it [00:14:20] like this guiding principle, right? So once you identify it, then you go and test write it, you know, and you go [00:14:25] and test it in the wild. And then I'd see him, you know, we were catching up every week and he is like, cool, how have you used it?

And [00:14:30] whatnot. And this really profound thing happened one day where I gave him my examples and he wanted an example of where I'd [00:14:35] used it and where I didn't use it. And so an example where I used it was pretty clear cut, right? I'm like [00:14:40] sitting down with one of my direct reports and we both get along amazingly and blah, blah, [00:14:45] blah.

And it was all really easy. And then there was a time where I didn't use it was when. I was in a meeting with, [00:14:50] um, one of my, my peers, like someone else in the sort of exec suite, and we never got [00:14:55] along. Right. And I just, I did not, you know, enjoy working with this person, and I just didn't bother [00:15:00] trying to, you know, apply this, this principle.

And, and maybe for [00:15:05] context, the, the, the principle I was working with was like, um, building success and [00:15:10] selflessness in equal quantities.

[00:15:11] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:11] Speaker 2: That was like this, this temperature check I'd use in every meeting to make sure I [00:15:15] wasn't just too far on the success mode.

[00:15:17] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:17] Speaker 2: Um, and, but then I gave him this example.

I didn't use [00:15:20] it in that meeting, and he was like, okay, tell me why, you know, why didn't you, I was like, because you know what? Just couldn't be [00:15:25] fucked, mate. You know? And he is like, all right, but let me tell you something. Right. You know, like that, [00:15:30] that opportunity, right when you are talking to say, direct report, that is just like [00:15:35] kicking a goal from 10 meters out straight in front.

You just do it all day.

[00:15:39] Speaker 3: Goalie's [00:15:40] blindfolded.

[00:15:40] Speaker 2: Yeah. He goes, but this one with that other person that's like on the boundary line, [00:15:45] getting tackled out to play, kick it check side like Joe Danaher style. And that's, you know, so [00:15:50] you should be using those opportunities to really see how well you can, like that's the best place to test [00:15:55] your purpose is in a more hostile environment.

And it always really stuck with me. So I, I'm, [00:16:00] I feel your pain, right? When I'm in an interview and I'm just like, okay, this is just not the right person. Sometimes I [00:16:05] have used that time to try to see, see where, how excited could I actually get this person [00:16:10] about the topic? And it never usually works. Now, now I just actually, I am really upfront with 'em.

Go, Hey, listen, I don't think [00:16:15] this is right for you because of these reasons. And then, you know, end it short, but yeah, anyway. Interesting, [00:16:20] interesting, interesting.

[00:16:20] Speaker 3: Very interesting.

[00:16:21] Speaker 2: Um, I also wanted to point out that what's crazy about the way [00:16:25] that you guys put that together and, and you know, like I said, I don't think you could have got someone to [00:16:30] facilitate it better than what you did.

Um, and even just the concept of like the concentric [00:16:35] circles, right? You know, sometimes people use this thing called the the why, the [00:16:40] five whys. Because they say that once you understand your purpose within five whys, it should get you to, [00:16:45] this is how we change the world.

[00:16:46] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:46] Speaker 2: Right? So it's kind of a version of what you did there.

Mm-hmm. But it's actually a lot [00:16:50] deeper than that. Right. So this is a fucking risky tangent. But in you guys meditate [00:16:55]

[00:16:56] Speaker 3: I have done right now. I probably should do more. Should

[00:16:58] Speaker 2: do

[00:16:58] Speaker 3: more. Yeah. I

[00:16:59] Speaker 2: do [00:17:00] enjoy that. I got this great tip. Once when you know, you're talking about specific meditation of like mindfulness, right?

[00:17:05] So you sit down and you close your eyes and you try to do the mindfulness thing. And what instantly happens is your [00:17:10] brain's going into overload, right? And one of the things that this person taught me as a technique was [00:17:15] to do this zoom out. So start by just imagine you're floating [00:17:20] above yourself, looking down on yourself.

In the room.

[00:17:22] Speaker 3: Mm.

[00:17:23] Speaker 2: Then you float a little bit higher and you can see the [00:17:25] whole house.

[00:17:25] Speaker 3: I've done that exercise. It's awesome. Yeah. It's so good. Right. You end up getting like, you know, like, like [00:17:30] Google Earth Galactic. Yeah. And, and yeah. Yeah. Like Google Earth.

[00:17:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:32] Speaker 3: It's

[00:17:33] Speaker 2: very cool. And then you're so detached, right?

Yeah. And [00:17:35] you are just suddenly connected with the universe and it's really fucking cool. But you kind of, to do that in a [00:17:40] strategy session is pretty dope.

[00:17:41] Speaker 3: Yeah. Right?

[00:17:42] Speaker 2: Like I love that you did that. [00:17:45] Um, okay, so the other thing that really stood out to me that was like, okay, you guys have [00:17:50] um, definitely done this differently, is what I would call in [00:17:55] specific topics were culture and governance and very different [00:18:00] functions.

But what they had in common for you guys in terms of the journey thus far is that you built [00:18:05] these disciplines and processes into those functions of the [00:18:10] business where success became a real key driver from those [00:18:15] levers, from what I could tell. And what's different though is that. There is tons [00:18:20] of literature out there that clearly states, right.

If you invest early in those areas, [00:18:25] it's clearly correlated with success. Right. But I don't think you guys read those papers and then when [00:18:30] invented it, right? Like you did, you did do I was,

[00:18:32] Speaker 3: we didn't read it, but I think, I think we had some experience with [00:18:35] it, as in we had it, having been involved in other organizations [00:18:40] and seeing how right, how people, processes were, um, adopted and being used [00:18:45] and the impact that that had on, on culture and therefore success was something that we, [00:18:50] um, had seen firsthand.

Yeah. And said, we'd like to do [00:18:55] something like that because we can see the benefits of it. And, and I, I think that the success is the [00:19:00] outcome. The driver is the investment in that earlier.

[00:19:02] Speaker 2: Yeah. So could you just do a, [00:19:05] just in case there's someone watching this that didn't listen to the part one, just a quick couple of sentences, recap, [00:19:10] like those subjects of governance and culture, like how [00:19:15] you did invest in those early and, and what.

[00:19:18] Speaker: Yeah, well, I think, [00:19:20] um. From a cultural point of view from the beginning, it was a topic of [00:19:25] conversation within, um, at sort of executive level.

[00:19:28] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:19:28] Speaker: And it was something that was [00:19:30] important that we got right. And we, in the early days had a few cracks at it [00:19:35] before, like even sort of local taphouse days before, before stomping ground, [00:19:40] um, had even started.

We'd had cracks at performance reviews and, and these sorts of stuff. And [00:19:45] we never really, the idea was good and some of the execute, the [00:19:50] execution was pretty good, but we never really nailed it. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't until, um, as I think we [00:19:55] spoke about last time in, uh, 2017, about six or eight months [00:20:00] into stomping ground where, um, Roxy came on board and was just the perfect person at the perfect [00:20:05] time

[00:20:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:20:05] Speaker: To then build a people and culture function. And that's really where it all [00:20:10] sort of kicked off and, and got to another level and it's still evolving.

[00:20:14] Speaker 2: [00:20:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:15] Speaker: Um, but it's still a topic of conversation, you know, all the time for [00:20:20] us.

[00:20:20] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:20] Speaker: Um, and something that we're sort of hypersensitive too. And, and, and, [00:20:25] and we need to know when there's issues and when we need, you know, when [00:20:30] things aren't quite right.

We like to sort of feel them nice and ear early and, and deal with 'em as quickly as we [00:20:35] can.

[00:20:35] Speaker 2: Well, can I just ask quickly about that? Yeah, sure. While we're on it, because like, what I'd acknowledge in that [00:20:40] is. Like, it's awesome, right? It was like right place, right time, and right [00:20:45] combination of factors that enabled you to invest in it.

But I could also argue [00:20:50] that there's many organizations that have had those same combination of factors, right? Like [00:20:55] someone like a Roxy Keen and ready to go. But that's a big commitment to go, Hey, let's, [00:21:00] let's invest in you doing this role and see what happens. Not most people don't make that [00:21:05] decision. Mm.

And yeah, go. Go for it.

[00:21:07] Speaker: I think one of the key things for us was. [00:21:10] The belief that we still hold that attracting and [00:21:15] retaining the right people

[00:21:16] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:21:16] Speaker: Is crucial to the whole game. Okay. And if you look at the cost of [00:21:20] investing in a people and culture person, and then you look at the improvement in [00:21:25] retention and the, the fact that you need to do less recruiting and less training and all this sort of [00:21:30] stuff, it starts to make sense really quickly.

[00:21:32] Speaker 2: Yes.

[00:21:33] Speaker 3: That that's exactly, and that was, that [00:21:35] was the brief to Rob. Yeah. Right, right. Um, the whole function existed to attract and [00:21:40] retain the best possible talent. Right. To build a high performance team.

[00:21:43] Speaker 2: Wow, that's so [00:21:45] functional. But it's also like. You know, when you actually zoom out a little bit and you [00:21:50] go back to that purpose statement, the reason for being mm-hmm.

How could you truly and [00:21:55] authentically execute that without this investment in people?

[00:21:59] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Well, [00:22:00] that's right. Pretty obvious as they go, they go so hand in hand.

[00:22:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:22:02] Speaker 3: And, and, and in fact, the other way [00:22:05] around as well, like Roxy was always sharing, uh, like on the top of every performance [00:22:10] review, there was a reminder of what our, um, I

[00:22:11] Speaker 2: love that.

[00:22:12] Speaker 3: Our reason for being was, and, and in fact all [00:22:15] of our, uh, the matrix of performance criteria borrowed their things like, [00:22:20] what are you doing for, um, for, for, for community? What are you doing for culture? What are you doing [00:22:25] for, uh, development? I mean, there was all, all all of these different things, but they all tied back [00:22:30] into our sense of purpose.

[00:22:31] Speaker 2: So Good. That's elite dude. That's amazing. And then what about on the governance [00:22:35] piece? Like quick recap on

[00:22:36] Speaker 3: that. So, I mean, that, that again was, uh, something that [00:22:40] happened. More like right place, right time. We, when we started stomping ground Mm. Uh, [00:22:45] we brought in an external investor for the first time.

[00:22:47] Speaker 2: Yep.

[00:22:47] Speaker 3: And that external investor, uh, is [00:22:50] Mike, he's still our, he's our founding investor, still, still our, um, key investor. And [00:22:55] he came from the big end of town, bigger end of town. He'd been in private equity for a long time.

[00:22:59] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:22:59] Speaker 3: [00:23:00] Um, but came out to Australia and started to do what he was doing at the big end town in New York, but [00:23:05] on a much smaller scale, um, here in Australia for himself.

[00:23:08] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:23:08] Speaker 3: So rather than talking about [00:23:10] billions of dollars with institutional funds Yeah. He was using his own funds and doing it on a sort of [00:23:15] small to medium enterprise sort of level.

[00:23:16] Speaker 2: Right.

[00:23:17] Speaker 3: Um, and um, and he, so he [00:23:20] was used to sort of sitting on boards and he was used to, um, the governance piece. And so [00:23:25] when you've got an external investor, I think getting your back of house, so to speak, the governance [00:23:30] piece Right.

Is important because. You want them to have faith and trust in what [00:23:35] you are doing. Mm. Um, to, you know, kind of pave the way for them to invest more when the time [00:23:40] comes. Mm-hmm. Um, to know that things are, you know, are clean and done by the book and all of those sorts of [00:23:45] things. So he, um, introduced the, the concept of board meetings and we had board [00:23:50] meetings from the get go once, once a month.

[00:23:52] Speaker 2: Amazing.

[00:23:52] Speaker 3: Um, and but also it's [00:23:55] been a journey and like we didn't get it right from the beginning. Like we, our reports have got better, they've [00:24:00] become more refined. Um, they, uh, you know, we're better at sort of calling out [00:24:05] the right things. And, and it's still a work in progress. Of course. We still haven't, we still haven't got there.

Yeah, of course. A hundred percent of, and we're [00:24:10] still always, like, right now, we had a board meeting yesterday just by chance and, um. [00:24:15] One of the things that came out in the board meeting, which is probably 1 0 1, is like, let's [00:24:20] put, um, OHNS and safety at the very top nice ev every time

[00:24:23] Speaker 2: that doesn't

[00:24:24] Speaker 3: get left.[00:24:25]

So it never gets left out. And you know, and it, it's a, as a, as a directorship, as a, as [00:24:30] a duty from a director and the board of directors meeting, that's one of our key duties, making sure that our people are safe. [00:24:35]

[00:24:35] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[00:24:35] Speaker 3: So let's have almost the number one thing like safety, and we talk about that. That's done.

[00:24:40] Love that. And let's move on to the next thing.

[00:24:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, it's, it's never, it's never finished, right? Like a board [00:24:45] and governance is a department in an organization, so it's not an [00:24:50] app that you just plug in and then it just does the same thing over and over. No, it's a department with people [00:24:55] that are serving a purpose.

It's like saying, you know, oh, our kitchen's just sorted now. You know, like we just put the [00:25:00] right menu in and now it's just, it's always needs tweaking. And I think that's sometimes what [00:25:05] people mistake when it comes to a board and when it comes to governance in general. Is that they don't [00:25:10] view it as this.

The way that I would build my kitchen team or the way that I'd build my front of house team or my wholesale [00:25:15] department, that's another department. You've gotta build it and you gotta manage it. And it seemed like the way that [00:25:20] you guys have done it is pretty, you know, intuitively or not, it's pretty fucking [00:25:25] textbook.

And one of the things that we did chat about a little bit, and we kind of got close to it, but I don't think we, [00:25:30] we went explicitly into it, but keen to, to chat about it today, is just the idea [00:25:35] of like decision fatigue.

[00:25:36] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:36] Speaker 2: You know? And when you are an executive, right? [00:25:40] And you are at the forefront of everything, you've gotta make every single decision.

Right? [00:25:45] And just on a day-to-day basis, that can be pretty draining, you know? But when you think about it, [00:25:50] on top of that, you've also gotta make organizational decisions, strategic decisions, compliance decisions, like [00:25:55] all of these things. And you're just on your own man. You're gonna be cooked after six months, [00:26:00] right?

[00:26:00] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:26:00] Speaker 2: Like we're just having that structure in place where it's like, okay, I've gotta take everything I'm [00:26:05] thinking and everything that's happening and I've gotta report it to. A group of people that are at least one degree of [00:26:10] separation outside of the company.

[00:26:11] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:26:12] Speaker 2: You know, it changes that whole,

[00:26:13] Speaker 3: it's, it's interesting 'cause I think the way a [00:26:15] pure board should work is, is very mainly around the strategic decisions.

Mm-hmm. And then [00:26:20] operational decisions. Um, if you've got the, the sort of the manifesto or the, the, um, [00:26:25] you know, the, the license to go and, um, and do Mm. Um, should really be done at the [00:26:30] exec level. Yeah. Um, very much so. Our board kind of as, because it's quite small, um, [00:26:35] and uh, and quite hands-on.

[00:26:36] Speaker: Mm.

[00:26:37] Speaker 3: It kind of is a bit more hybrid.

Yeah. So it gets involved both [00:26:40] on the big strategic decisions, but then also a bit more on the operat, on the bigger ticket item. [00:26:45] Operational.

[00:26:45] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, is there, is there, um, I can imagine there's many benefits to that. For [00:26:50] your specific circumstance, is there any costs to it, do you think?

[00:26:53] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think sometimes we spend too [00:26:55] much time on operational stuff at that level.

Got you. Instead of strategic. Yeah. Um, and, but at [00:27:00] the same time, um, we're not a big corporate, you know, so, um, we [00:27:05] appreciate the input on, on the operational side, and I think, um, you know, Mike [00:27:10] appreciates, uh, the insight into the operational side, um, as opposed to just staying at [00:27:15] the strategic level.

[00:27:16] Speaker 2: Sure.

Yep.

[00:27:16] Speaker 3: Hmm.

[00:27:17] Speaker 2: Yeah. Awesome. Well, yeah, I mean that, those were two [00:27:20] really big standouts for me. It was like that conversation that we had around the purpose stuff was great. [00:27:25] Like I, like I said, I geek out on it, really enjoyed it. But I just, I really liked how we got there because [00:27:30] then if you can remember this or not, but I was asking you, I was asking, I think I [00:27:35] started with you guy.

About on an individual level, like what drove you to make all these irrational decisions [00:27:40] and you quoted Robert Kiyosaki and, and Rich Dad Poor Dad or Cashflow Quadrant, one of the two. Oh yeah. [00:27:45] And you were saying that that was what you wanted to do, you know, you wanted financial independence, but then we were pissing [00:27:50] ourselves going, what a bad way to go about that.

That's right. But then we got, we, we kept [00:27:55] pushing on it and then that sort of really came to the surface. It was, it was pretty awesome. So I [00:28:00] guess like, yeah, like I said, it's, it's, so, um, that was probably my best [00:28:05] attempt at making this part one, part two as, as not disjointed as possible. [00:28:10] We'll see what it's, you're, you're

[00:28:11] Speaker 3: probably gonna have to delete that whole section because it's just a repeat of the last [00:28:15] section.

[00:28:15] Speaker 2: No, I think it'll be good. And, and I think there's also, it's trying to figure it out. 'cause there'll be a bunch of people that probably [00:28:20] don't listen to the both, to the audio one and they just watch the video one. So I think we're, I think we're okay, but. [00:28:25] I think now it's, what's exciting to me is where do we, where does the conversation go from here?

Because [00:28:30] when we were wrapping up last time, I was like, oh, I've still got all these questions and we didn't get through 'em. And you are like, [00:28:35] yeah, it'd be good to talk about brand and a bunch of other things. So let's just crack on with that.

[00:28:38] Speaker 3: Let's do it. So

[00:28:39] Speaker 2: my, my [00:28:40] headlines are like brand, customer experience and strategy.

[00:28:43] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:43] Speaker 2: You know, and then I've got a bunch of like, [00:28:45] questions within that. So do you wanna just, just fire through 'em? Yeah,

[00:28:47] Speaker 3: absolutely.

[00:28:48] Speaker 2: All right. Awesome. And then if you think of [00:28:50] anything you want to add to the list, just shout out and Yeah. Pretty high likelihood we're gonna stray from these [00:28:55] topics a fair bit.

[00:28:55] Speaker 3: No doubt.

[00:28:56] Speaker 2: Yeah. Which is totally cool. Alright, so, so brand, right? Um, [00:29:00] first thing that really like intrigued me is you guys have accrued [00:29:05] some pretty awesome brand equity right. In your brand. And, and I can say that as a [00:29:10] person who is, was a loyal customer, like when I was drinking beer. [00:29:15] I still am loyal, right?

But when I was drinking beer, like I would never shut the fuck up about you guys [00:29:20] and, you know, so you've got all this brand equity. Is, is it something that you actually measure, or, or how [00:29:25] do you manage that internally?

[00:29:28] Speaker 3: Jj? We

[00:29:29] Speaker: measure [00:29:30] brand equity. The answer? No, we don't. We should. Yeah.

[00:29:33] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:29:34] Speaker: Yeah. Have you [00:29:35] got a, how do you measure it?

Um, no, this, yeah. I

[00:29:37] Speaker 2: send you

[00:29:37] Speaker: a book. Yeah. [00:29:40] We, uh. I think from a brand and marketing point of view, we as [00:29:45] like, like the rest of the business, we're still evolving. Mm-hmm. But we are getting better at [00:29:50] measuring things. That's one thing. The other thing is I think we're also getting [00:29:55] better at being, um, at building that brand equity by having, um, far more [00:30:00] cohesive and, um, managed message.

And, uh, we're not, we're, we're now [00:30:05] not doing, you know, it's something different in Collingwood to what we're doing [00:30:10] in Moab at the same time as a beer launch that's got nothing to do with either of them. Right. Right. It's more the, the, it's [00:30:15] a far more cohesive approach. And we're doing things in, uh, in our customer's venues at the [00:30:20] same time as ours are wicked bottle shops and things like that.

Um, HH

[00:30:23] Speaker 2: have

[00:30:23] Speaker: you

[00:30:24] Speaker 2: achieved that [00:30:25] cohesion?

[00:30:25] Speaker 3: It's, it's interesting because now we're like, stomping ground's, been around for 10 years, [00:30:30] right? Mm-hmm. In, in March it'll be 10 year birthday since we started brewing. Wow. And in August, it'll be 10 years since [00:30:35] we opened the doors to the public.

[00:30:36] Speaker 2: Wow.

[00:30:36] Speaker 3: Um, the Tap House opened, um, 18 years [00:30:40] ago.

In February, in two weeks time, it'll be 18 years. Yeah. Um, and Gabs [00:30:45] started in 2011, so, um, okay. So, and, and in [00:30:50] terms of the journey, this is just like, we're kind of always growing up and we're always [00:30:55] kind of, we're probably, I don't know, maybe we're at our, at a adolescence now, but we [00:31:00] last year, um, undertook this process to, um, and it was with [00:31:05] the help of someone external who came on board.

I think we mentioned that we had a CEO for a little while. Yeah. Correct. Um, for a couple of [00:31:10] years. Um, and he, um, one of the biggest pieces of value that he added was that he, [00:31:15] he recognized the fact that everything starts with brand. Um, and brand is so [00:31:20] critical and so important. So we undertook a piece of work that, um, Justin and I [00:31:25] were less involved in, but Abby, our marketing manager, was.

Hugely [00:31:30] involved in Awesome. Um, obvious 'cause we, we knew what our brand was. Yeah. We, we knew it [00:31:35] well. Um, and it was really clear to us it was, and, and we were all on the same page. Mm. Um, we knew exactly what [00:31:40] it was, but we never, A document never existed that really kind of, [00:31:45] um, put it all down Right. And made it really clear what it was.

[00:31:48] Speaker 2: Didn't have the brand book.

[00:31:49] Speaker 3: The brand [00:31:50] book. And so what we wanted to do is start with that brand positioning and really clearly define what it was on [00:31:55] paper.

[00:31:55] Speaker 2: Awesome.

[00:31:55] Speaker 3: Leaves no doubt as to what it is.

[00:31:57] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Speaker 3: And really kind of articulates it well, yeah. [00:32:00] So we, we undertook this process and it was a long process, a challenging process, [00:32:05] but the end result was that it just created this amazing amount of clarity [00:32:10] for us in terms of what, what, you know, uh, and it tied in our sense of purpose and it tied in [00:32:15] our, um, people and culture side of things Yeah.

That we've already spoken about, but it also just [00:32:20] talked about the brand and who, who we, you know, what we are, what we stood for, what our values were, all of love [00:32:25] it, all of those things. And, um, and then. All of the decisions we're making [00:32:30] specifically in the marketing, but more broadly across the whole business.

[00:32:32] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:32:33] Speaker 3: Now relate back to. [00:32:35] That document, they're all anchored and we, and they're all anchored and so we can kind of make [00:32:40] decisions a lot more. You were talking about decision fatigue. Yeah. We can make decisions much more quickly.

[00:32:44] Speaker 2: Yeah. Awesome.

[00:32:44] Speaker 3: [00:32:45] Does it,

[00:32:45] Speaker 2: it's yes

[00:32:45] Speaker 3: or no? Does it fit with that? Yeah. Yes. Let's do it.

[00:32:47] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:32:47] Speaker 3: Love it. Does it not fit with that? No. Love it. We can let, let it [00:32:50] go.

[00:32:50] Speaker 2: Love it.

[00:32:50] Speaker: And even from a product point of view, it clarify it like we, [00:32:55] like just about every other craft brewery ha went through a phase where we're bringing out that many [00:33:00] limited releases.

[00:33:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:33:01] Speaker: That it was ridiculous. And we, and some of them, we didn't even know why we were doing them really.[00:33:05]

It just sort of popped up and then we did them. And this document now gives a [00:33:10] purpose to, or, or requires a purpose for any new NPD you can't got it. Just come up with an [00:33:15] idea and flow, um, flow it through the system. It's gotta be

[00:33:18] Speaker 2: in

[00:33:18] Speaker: that, that format. You, it's gotta fit. [00:33:20] Within the framework.

[00:33:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, love it.

[00:33:21] Speaker: And have a purpose. Yeah. And that purpose might not be making money, it might be just [00:33:25] a, a novelty thing, or it could be, it could be anything.

[00:33:27] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:33:27] Speaker: But, um, it's gotta have a clear purpose. Otherwise, [00:33:30] why are we doing it?

[00:33:30] Speaker 2: It's so good. I mean, what, what you are describing there is this process of, like, in [00:33:35] in the product world, they would call that filtration.

So, you know, in some, [00:33:40] um, I don't know, like, not necessarily limited to like [00:33:45] engineering and, and mechanics and tech, but even when, um, even in, in hospo you can see it, right? Like [00:33:50] everyone's got ideas, right? And one of the most difficult things is you want to, you don't wanna [00:33:55] stifle creativity, but you also wanna, you know, filter out some noise.

[00:34:00] And if you're working in an environment where. Every two meters. You walk across the building and someone's like, oh [00:34:05] mate, just I've got this idea for you. And, and the best [00:34:10] way to have your cake and eat it too, is to go, Hey, listen, I'm all for it. I want all your ideas, but you just have to give it [00:34:15] to me in this format.

It just, you're just gotta gimme, fill out this sentence structure of [00:34:20] like, I believe this product will work well for this customer segment and we'll know that to be true, but you know, [00:34:25] whatever it is, right? And all of a sudden, like, you know, outta the 17 [00:34:30] ideas that normally land on your desk, maybe only two of them do because that person who probably didn't have a great idea [00:34:35] couldn't even fill out the form and it doesn't go so, so something I'm interested about, I remember being in your office once [00:34:40] ages ago and for a limited release, you had this awesome campaign.

It was [00:34:45] this, um, poster on the wall and it was. Totally gonna butcher this, but [00:34:50] it was like a rev, an actual customer review.

[00:34:52] Speaker: Yeah. That was the smash beer. Yes. It was like leaves [00:34:55]

[00:34:55] Speaker 2: the sour tasting mouth,

[00:34:56] Speaker: leaves the sour tasting mouth, one star and then so was so good. And then five [00:35:00] stars.

[00:35:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. It was the same review, but with one star on five stars.

Yes. Right next to it [00:35:05] leaves the sour

[00:35:05] Speaker 2: tasting. So was, was that an example of something that came after the brand book, or was that before? No, that [00:35:10] was, well, well before. So, so then do you, did you find that after the implementation of the brand book, was there any, [00:35:15] um, net negative result to the creativity processes?

Or did it only [00:35:20] enhance

[00:35:20] Speaker 3: it? Well, not really. Uh, you, you go and then I'll go.

[00:35:22] Speaker: Yeah. I definitely think it hasn't, [00:35:25] um, stifled any creativity Cool at all. Because people are still coming and if, if anything, I [00:35:30] think it's just, it's the kind of. Guardrails and guidance that people have been [00:35:35] looking for, that perhaps they didn't even realize.

Like it's kind of, it's simpler now.

[00:35:39] Speaker 2: Yes.

[00:35:39] Speaker: You know, [00:35:40] whereas it gives some

[00:35:40] Speaker 2: parameters.

[00:35:40] Speaker: It, it's, rather than just everyone rocks into a meeting with an idea, they're just like, oh, [00:35:45] well I gotta, like you're saying, fill out the form or whatever. There's a bit more thought that needs to go into it. Yeah. And [00:35:50] therefore it just, it, it, it, I think gives people some comfort more than anything else.

[00:35:54] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:54] Speaker 3: [00:35:55] Yeah. And I, I think also, like, I'm not a marketeer, but I've learned a lot about marketing over [00:36:00] the last however long just by living and breathing it, I guess. Yeah. And we're a consumer brand. Um, one of the [00:36:05] things that, um, I've learned the difference between is, is like the brand and, [00:36:10] um, the creative expression of that brand.

[00:36:11] Speaker: Right?

[00:36:12] Speaker 3: So the brand is the brand, right? Mm-hmm. [00:36:15] And, and we, we, we've defined the brand. We know what the brand is, et cetera. Now. A [00:36:20] certain campaign Mm. Can then come along and have a creative idea that [00:36:25] highlights some attribute of the brand. Yeah. Or kind of connects the brand with [00:36:30] consumers or cuts through some way, shape, or form.

Mm. That's the creative expression of the [00:36:35] brand for advertising or for, um, whatever the case may be.

[00:36:38] Speaker 2: Yep.

[00:36:39] Speaker 3: And so that [00:36:40] creative, um, can really come from anywhere from an agency mm-hmm. From a, you know, from an, an [00:36:45] advertiser, uh, from someone within the team.

[00:36:47] Speaker 2: Yep.

[00:36:47] Speaker 3: Whatever. Um, but having that [00:36:50] clarity of, of um, uh, you know, of what the brand is just means that when the creative [00:36:55] comes along, you can assess it so much more clearly.

Yeah. I love that because that creative Yes. [00:37:00] That's bang on brand. Yeah. Or no, it's not, you know? Love it. So.

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Learn more today@opentable.com au slash restaurant dash [00:37:40] solutions. The next question I'd love to ask you is about, um, [00:37:45] building loyalty in your customer base and what are the things that you've actively done to do [00:37:50] that? But for the sake of the show notes, I'm just going to reference a model that I'll [00:37:55] send you as well, when you talk about measuring brand equity.

Mm-hmm. Um, Kevin Keller is like [00:38:00] the godfather of all, like any, if you go study marketing mm-hmm. Guarantee you whatever textbook you [00:38:05] get, it'll be written by him.

[00:38:06] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:06] Speaker 2: Um, Koler and Keller of the guys. Right. So he had this sick model [00:38:10] called, um, customer Based Brand Equity. And it's a, it's just this really [00:38:15] wicked diagnostic that shows a few, there's a, there's a few vertical and horizontal kind of [00:38:20] dimensions to it.

Mm-hmm. But guarantee go into the next marketing meeting you have and [00:38:25] walk through that model together as a team. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:26] Speaker 3: And

[00:38:27] Speaker 2: you'll just be like, oh, there's our marketing strategy for the next six months. It's [00:38:30] really, really good.

[00:38:30] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:38:30] Speaker 2: Right. So I'll, I'll chuck it in the show notes as well. 'cause I think a lot of people would find it quite useful.

But back to [00:38:35] the loyalty in your customer base, what, what are some things that you could point to that you've actively [00:38:40] done

[00:38:40] Speaker 3: every, every time? It's a hard question. I just go like that.

[00:38:42] Speaker: Yeah, I know. Just while you go there, gather your thoughts. [00:38:45] I've picked that up. Loyalty, I think, I think. [00:38:50] One of the, um, one of the things that we've spoken about from the beginning is, um, [00:38:55] authenticity.

[00:38:55] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:38:56] Speaker: And I think when I, I think people can see [00:39:00] through anything that's fake. Mm-hmm. And foe and whatever. And I think a lot of the loyalty, [00:39:05] um, that we've been able to build with our wholesale [00:39:10] customers and therefore consumers and, and consumers in our venues. I [00:39:15] think it's come from just being genuine and having, and, and building great relationships that [00:39:20] we, you know, continue to sort of maintain and put time and energy into.

[00:39:25] It's not, it's not just a transaction. We're not just, um, flogging beer to whoever.

[00:39:29] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Speaker: And it [00:39:30] began in the, you know, with, with seeding the, the beer in the best places we could possibly get into [00:39:35] in 20 16, 17. Mm-hmm. They were, they were handpicked those places. Not, they weren't just for, [00:39:40] um, you know, it wasn't just anyone who would buy the beard, they could have it.

[00:39:43] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:43] Speaker: And so that, I [00:39:45] think that has just sort of slowly but surely built on itself. [00:39:50] Did, can I just

[00:39:50] Speaker 2: test a rumor here? Yeah. I know. If I could be way off, do you remember [00:39:55] in the, I wanna say 2017 grand final when Richmond won the [00:40:00] first time, like in whatever, you know, that whole story. Did one of you guys.

Put kegs in your [00:40:05] car and drive to Swan Street.

[00:40:06] Speaker: Yeah. To the,

[00:40:06] Speaker 2: to deliver beer to the

[00:40:07] Speaker: union unless

[00:40:08] Speaker 2: you knew they'd run outta beer.

[00:40:09] Speaker: [00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:10] Speaker 2: That's amazing. I mean, that's building some pretty amazing

[00:40:13] Speaker: loyalty and that, and that's [00:40:15] the union, that's the Mark Lawn boys. Yeah, those boys. Um, and who continue to be, um, you [00:40:20] know, one of our best customers.

Yeah. But yeah. Yeah,

[00:40:22] Speaker 3: we love them. And we've had a, like, we kind of, there's a good [00:40:25] story about that as well, actually. Um, our very first rep on the road was Cass [00:40:30] and she, um, before she had her license, her Australian license, she was getting around [00:40:35] in, in the north on a bicycle with a backpack gold. And we weren't packaging beer yet, so we [00:40:40] had it in a thermos.

And, um, and so we bought these thermos and we had a few different beer samples. And of [00:40:45] course the riding around kind of, you know, gets a little, um, you've got fizzy beer in there. [00:40:50] And we had a meeting with the marquee of lawn, and it was Cal who's, um, uh, one of the [00:40:55] owners of the, of the group. And, uh, we ended up being about either [00:41:00] 15 minutes later, half an hour later.

I can't quite remember. Oh shit. And, uh, because for [00:41:05] whatever reason it was me and Cass and we, we showed up there and, uh, we had these thermos, we didn't even have [00:41:10] business cards, so we were writing names on the back of a coaster. And so, you know,

awesome.

[00:41:13] Speaker 3: Um, and, uh, and [00:41:15] so he, he was kind of not very happy that we were late, but he said, okay, you've got 10 minutes.

[00:41:19] Speaker: Wow.

[00:41:19] Speaker 3: And we [00:41:20] sat there and um, we opened it up and it fid everywhere. And we, and he [00:41:25] poured it and he tasted and he went, that's actually really good. Oh wow. He goes, gimme two kegs. And it was like our [00:41:30] first sale of IPA ever. And he goes, I'll have two kegs of that. And Cass and I just looked at it 'cause [00:41:35] we've been doing the rounds and have been quite hard.

And, uh, and he, he just went, yeah, I'll take two kicks. And we [00:41:40] thought that was the quickest sale we've ever made in our life. That is unreal. And, uh, and so, and, and that [00:41:45] relationship actually started from there. So the Union house is owned by that group, and so there's a, um, Mount Erica and [00:41:50] the monkey and all of the, so they, they're, you know, great story.

And we've, we. You were talking about [00:41:55] loyalty.

[00:41:55] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:55] Speaker 3: Um, I was gonna say that, uh, there's a lot of different layers, [00:42:00] um, because we have the people that interact with us are on a lot of different [00:42:05] layers. So we've got consumers, uh, that are they consumer, our beer [00:42:10] from venues or from bottle shops, but also direct to consumer.

Then we've got customers that walk in the door and [00:42:15] buy beer over the bar and buy food. Mm-hmm. Et cetera. Mm-hmm. Um, we've also got, um, customers [00:42:20] who are pubs and, and Yeah. Uh, and you know, and outlets and each one of those [00:42:25] groups of people behave slightly differently.

[00:42:26] Speaker 2: Sure.

[00:42:27] Speaker 3: So, and I think it actually weirdly comes back to tying into [00:42:30] that sense of purpose.

Usually if you kind of know what you are about, how do you build loyalty, you, you, [00:42:35] you live and breathe that sense of purpose.

[00:42:36] Speaker 2: Yep.

[00:42:37] Speaker 3: And that resonates with your customers, your consumers, with [00:42:40] everyone. And that builds that loyalty because that's the authenticity that JJ was talking about.

[00:42:44] Speaker: [00:42:45] Yeah.

[00:42:45] Speaker 3: Um, it's real.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's, uh, shared values. Mm-hmm. And, um. When you [00:42:50] take kegs over to the union, um, in, in Richmond, um, when the grand finals, [00:42:55] um, when Richmond in the grand final, that that builds loyalty. Yes. Because they know that you go above and beyond and you [00:43:00] don't do it to build loyalty, you do it 'cause your customer needs kegs.

Exactly. And it's like, you know, and so [00:43:05] you just do that. And, uh, I love

[00:43:06] Speaker 2: that.

[00:43:06] Speaker 3: And

[00:43:07] Speaker: I think we're still doing stuff like [00:43:10] we haven't, we haven't waned on that front either. Like we still go to the tap house in St. Kilda on the. [00:43:15] The Tuesday of every month and hang out with the Ale Stars, which is the beer appreciation group that we [00:43:20] started 18 years ago and we're still there once a month hanging out with those guys.

And some of them have been Ale stars. [00:43:25] Yeah. And some sounds like

[00:43:25] Speaker 2: an indoor soccer team.

[00:43:27] Speaker: Some of them have been going there. You [00:43:30] talk about loyalty, some of them have been, um, attending Ale Stars for 18 years. Wow. And yeah. Have been [00:43:35] members for that long. And so, and they're,

[00:43:36] Speaker 3: they're awesome. And they, they, they get perks as well.

Like when we, [00:43:40] when we had Gabs and owned Gabs, they'd get free tickets to Gabs. Um, and, uh, they get Yeah. Sick. They've got [00:43:45] their own mug with their number on it, and they've got their own locker at the, at the tap house. Oh, [00:43:50] that is awesome. And that builds loyalty. I and it, look, they're great. They, they're just a great bunch of people and that [00:43:55] really care about our venue and our beer and all that sort of stuff.

[00:43:58] Speaker 2: I mean, I just, the, the, [00:44:00] the of all of that, the thing that I just really heard is like, you know, the thing that builds loyalty [00:44:05] is authenticity to your purpose.

[00:44:06] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:44:07] Speaker 2: Like how can you go wrong? You know, when you just do that. [00:44:10] I've got. A couple of questions here. I've got a, I feel like this question's a bit buzzy.

Do you think [00:44:15] punters buy the beer or do they buy the story? [00:44:20] Come on, jj.

[00:44:20] Speaker: I think it's a bit of both. I, I, I think it has to be a bit of both the, um, [00:44:25] I think the, um, the story can elevate the beer [00:44:30] beyond what it would be otherwise.

[00:44:31] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:31] Speaker: Um, but the beer can't be. [00:44:35] Shit either.

[00:44:36] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:44:36] Speaker: Because they're not, they're not just gonna buy the story.

[00:44:39] Speaker 2: Got it. You can't [00:44:40] be there. There needs to be some type of balance between those two factors.

[00:44:43] Speaker: Yeah. And I mean, and the beer is part of the [00:44:45] story as well, so you can't, I think they're in inextricably linked. Really.

[00:44:47] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:44:48] Speaker: Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:44:49] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, look, [00:44:50] I think I, I, I agree a hundred percent, but you just have to look at it bigger picture for a second and [00:44:55] go, great.

Northern is the biggest selling beer in Australia. Right, right, right. [00:45:00] Are people buying the beer or are they buying the story? Oh, good question. [00:45:05] And I don't want to, you know, uh, say, you know, talk shit about anything, but I'm just thinking, [00:45:10] I don't think people are buying that particular product because it's an incredible [00:45:15] award-winning liquid

[00:45:16] Speaker 2: for the taste.

There might be people that are buying it because it's just a [00:45:20] generic flavor profile, and that's what they choose to drink. Right?

[00:45:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's easy to drink and it's everywhere. And, but I think, I think the [00:45:25] brand plays a big role, like the beer from up here and it's like, you know, imagery that kind of [00:45:30] resonates with people.

Mm-hmm. Plus maybe, you know, the midstream factor. There's, there's a whole bunch of stuff, but I [00:45:35] think it's, I think the beer, it's, if it wasn't, if, if, [00:45:40] yeah, if it wasn't the story, then there'd be a whole, I mean, McDonald's is a perfect example, right? Sure. Yeah, [00:45:45] yeah, yeah. So is it the best burger out there?

[00:45:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. No,

[00:45:47] Speaker 3: but is it the biggest selling burger out there? Yeah, that's, that. Are [00:45:50] people buying, you know. So there's, uh, there's definitely elements of both in our, in [00:45:55] our little neck of the, of the beer industry.

[00:45:57] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:45:57] Speaker 3: I think, um, if the pendulum probably [00:46:00] swings a little bit more towards the product side and um Right.

And, you know, and I [00:46:05] think that's why craft beer has such a massive growth for such [00:46:10] a long time because people were sick of just generic shit. Sure. And they wanted [00:46:15] something with a bit more flavor and a bit more story and, you know, and, and a bit more reality and authenticity [00:46:20] behind it.

[00:46:20] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:46:20] Speaker 3: But I think that, uh, yeah, I, I, so I think product matters more in [00:46:25] our space.

[00:46:25] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:46:25] Speaker 3: Um, in, in the independent space. But I, I do think that it's a combination,

[00:46:29] Speaker 2: but [00:46:30] even in that space, right. Where the product and the technicalities to it plays such an important [00:46:35] part. The story also plays an equally important part, in my view, [00:46:40] to a different segment, which is, you know, the story can make the technical product more accessible.

[00:46:44] Speaker 3: [00:46:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:45] Speaker 2: You know, like if you were to, if we were sit to sit down and you would've shown me a new beer, and you tell me [00:46:50] all about. The hot profile and the brewing temps and all that sort of stuff, I'd, I'd, [00:46:55] you'd lose me. Mm. But if you just said, Hey, this just tastes like boysenberry and then I can [00:47:00] actually taste it and it does, I'm like, oh, cool.

Like, I'm locked in now. Right. Like, I've got it. [00:47:05] Like where my mind goes to is, um, so we used to have this restaurant, right. [00:47:10] And um, I used to work on the floor there, right. Like I was, I was actually running it. And [00:47:15] you know, I need, I'm a really bad waiter and I'm, I know nothing about wine. [00:47:20] You get chatting too much.

Lemme get that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Forget about my section. But I, I also know nothing about [00:47:25] wine, but obviously in a restaurant you gotta be selling a lot of wine, right? Mm-hmm. And the wine that I sold the [00:47:30] most of right, was from BK Wines in South Australia. And the only [00:47:35] reason I used to sell heaps of it was because when I'd give people the wine list, I'd tell them about the story.

Him? Yeah. And [00:47:40] the story I'd say it's like, man, this guy, look at his Instagram profile. He literally just builds skateboard [00:47:45] ramps and makes wine. Mm-hmm. He just skates and makes wine. That's all he does. And everyone's like, I'll grab some.

[00:47:49] Speaker: Yeah, [00:47:50] nice

[00:47:51] Speaker 2: hundred percent. Yeah. It becomes, it's so much about the story and less about the [00:47:55] process.

I don't know, how does that enter your kind of

[00:47:57] Speaker 3: theory? Well, it does. A hundred percent. It does. But what you've just [00:48:00] described is interesting. 'cause the previous question was how do you build loyalty? Right. And, um, [00:48:05] so the guy that skateboards and builds ramps and um, and makes wine, [00:48:10] how do you know about that?

Um, and how did you become, become aware of that story? Mm-hmm And so for [00:48:15] us, the version of that for us is all of the people that are the front line. Yeah. Um, that are [00:48:20] selling our beer, whether it's our own staff. Or, or whether it's people with bottle shops and, and [00:48:25] pubs.

[00:48:25] Speaker: Yeah.

[00:48:25] Speaker 3: How do we get our beer to resonate with them?

Yeah. And how do we get them telling [00:48:30] our story?

[00:48:30] Speaker: Yeah,

[00:48:30] Speaker 3: sure. And sure. So that's how, and then, so it's about bringing them into the venue. Yeah. [00:48:35] Bringing them into the brewery, showing them around, getting them, taste the hops, taste the, um, malt, [00:48:40] uh, telling them the story. Having some pizzas. Having a, you know, a, a beer with them, telling them [00:48:45] about our reason for being mm-hmm.

And our why, seeing how that resonates with them. [00:48:50] And then they become our ambassadors. Um, and then they, when when someone [00:48:55] says, I'm not sure what they have, they say, try this one. It's local. Yeah. You know, and, and they tell our story for us. And that's, [00:49:00] that's a win-win because we are educating people. You say that

[00:49:03] Speaker 2: education piece, do you, do you [00:49:05] then extend that to your wholesale?

Customers

[00:49:08] Speaker 3: a hundred percent that, that's what I'm talking about

[00:49:09] Speaker 2: mainly. Yeah, that's talking. [00:49:10] Okay. Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about the staff

[00:49:11] Speaker 3: internally. No, I'm talking about both. Awesome. But I'm talking about wholesale customers as well. That's,

[00:49:14] Speaker 2: and then does it [00:49:15] translate? A

[00:49:15] Speaker 3: hundred percent?

[00:49:16] Speaker 2: Yeah.

Got it. So you, hundred percent. How do you know, like do you see it from, [00:49:20] someone will come and be like, oh man, I had this at this place and it had nothing to do with one of your [00:49:25] internal breweries, or what, what are your It's

[00:49:26] Speaker 3: a hard one to measure

[00:49:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:49:28] Speaker 3: With any kind of real [00:49:30] data.

[00:49:30] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:49:30] Speaker 3: It's a good one. It's a, it's one that you can pick up anecdotally.

Sure. When people go [00:49:35] in and they say, you know, this person recommended this to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, having people [00:49:40] who are, you know, engaged with what we're doing at the coalface, um, you know, [00:49:45] is, is gold. Yeah. Is the

best.

[00:49:47] Speaker: I, I think we can forget [00:49:50] sometimes the impact that like we, we get. Teams of staff in all the time [00:49:55] from venues that sell our beers in bottle shops and whatever, and they come in for lunch and we do a brewery tour and we [00:50:00] talk them through the beers and they meet, um, meet the brewers and us and whoever.

And [00:50:05] I think, you know, having been in the industry for so long, we're all a bit older and we've been to a million breweries. You, [00:50:10] you can underestimate the impact that those days can have on a 22-year-old bartender or yeah. Hundred percent, [00:50:15] 25-year-old waiter. You know, that, that, that direct, um, contact and the, the [00:50:20] real sort of appreciation for everything that is, that involved in the process and, and, [00:50:25] and the ingredients and everything

[00:50:26] Speaker 3: and the human element

[00:50:27] Speaker: behind it.

It might be the, yeah. And, and in a lot of cases it's the, it is the [00:50:30] first time these guys have been in that environment. Right. And certainly the first, or not certainly, but often [00:50:35] also, um, the first time we've been actually, you know, really engaged in it other than, you know, [00:50:40] doing a brewery tour at, uh, when they're away on holidays or whatever, you know what I mean?

[00:50:43] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Okay. [00:50:45] Hey guys, quick little interruption to the podcast to just talk about something pretty awesome that [00:50:50] stomping ground have going on right now. So Jazzy, you guys have just launched something pretty cool. Do you wanna kind of tell us [00:50:55] about it?

[00:50:55] Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. We are super excited to say that we've just launched a crowdsourced [00:51:00] funding campaign, um, to hopefully fund our next expansion [00:51:05] phase, which we're really excited about.

[00:51:06] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. It's pretty awesome. I mean, it's, this is kind of new [00:51:10] territory for a lot of people. Like I kind of think there's a lot of people think about this stuff and they don't really know much about it, [00:51:15] but there's definitely been some great brands from my experience that have sort of got onto [00:51:20] this and it's created so much value, right?

Because it helps with. Funding. It helps with brand equity, it [00:51:25] helps build a community. So yeah. How are you guys positioning all of that?

[00:51:29] Speaker: Yeah, I [00:51:30] think it comes back to a lot of what we've been talking about in this pod, and that is being authentic and [00:51:35] we want to create a community, um, tapping into people that are already fans, but hopefully [00:51:40] finding a few more.

[00:51:41] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:41] Speaker: Um, and giving them genuine value and reason to want to [00:51:45] buy in. Yeah. And, um, they'll, there'll be perks, there'll be merch, there'll be, um, events [00:51:50] specifically for these guys, um, and girls. And it'll be, like I said, a [00:51:55] community that will, will foster and hopefully grow, um, uh, through the journey.

[00:51:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. I love it.

[00:52:00] I, I hadn't thought much about this idea until you'd sort of [00:52:05] mentioned it and after you did, I was like, yeah, it's really smart and it's super on brand for you guys. So as soon as [00:52:10] we're done here, I'm gonna run to an ATM so I can buy in.

[00:52:12] Speaker: Nice one. Sounds good. Cheers

[00:52:14] Speaker 2: mate. [00:52:15] I've got two more questions for you that both relate to strategy and they're either gonna be [00:52:20] super clear cut or major cans of worms.

[00:52:22] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:23] Speaker 2: The first one is, [00:52:25] have

[00:52:25] Speaker 3: you signed an NDA, by the way,

[00:52:28] Speaker 2: happy to, [00:52:30] um,

[00:52:30] Speaker 3: have your audience.

[00:52:31] Speaker 2: We, yeah. One, um, I was just gonna ask, right, so kids [00:52:35] today seem to be drinking a lot less alcohol and, and or none at all. [00:52:40] And what's your guys like hedging strategy for this?

[00:52:44] Speaker 3: [00:52:45] Okay. Uh, it's a tough question. Yeah. No, look, I've been in and [00:52:50] around the beer industry for the best part of 30 years.

[00:52:53] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:52:53] Speaker 3: And [00:52:55] beer consumption, but also alcohol consumption more broadly has been in long-term [00:53:00] steady decay.

[00:53:00] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:01] Speaker 3: Um, and that's, uh, no different now, maybe it's [00:53:05] accelerating a little bit at the moment. Yeah. Perhaps. Yeah. And I, I wouldn't be surprised if, if it is people, you know, are [00:53:10] health conscious, people are, looks conscious, um, all of these sorts of things.

Um, and [00:53:15] there's, uh, I, I, I don't think there's any doubt that, that that's, you know, the trend. There's a couple of [00:53:20] exceptions around the world. Um, Asia and Africa tend to be bucking the trend, but the rest of really, the rest of the [00:53:25] developed the world tends to be, um, in, um, in decline from a, yeah. A consumption [00:53:30] per capita.

But

[00:53:30] Speaker 2: Asia and Africa, uh, increase in

[00:53:32] Speaker 3: the less mature markets. Wow. And, and so they're still [00:53:35] growing. Um, so, you know, China are becoming bigger consumers obviously, and Indians are [00:53:40] becoming bigger consumers. Yeah. Right. And, um, and also Africans are becoming big consumers. So, interesting.

[00:53:44] Speaker: I was [00:53:45] gonna say that ever-growing middle class in those parts of the world, where previously they wouldn't have had access.[00:53:50]

[00:53:50] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:53:50] Speaker: They now have, and they've got the means to pay for it. And so they're away in racing.

[00:53:54] Speaker 2: [00:53:55] Yeah.

[00:53:55] Speaker 3: And this, this is actually something that I think about a fair bit. Like, do we have a hedge? [00:54:00] I mean, the only tiny bit of hedge we have is the, um, non-alcoholic product, um, that we, that we have [00:54:05]

[00:54:05] Speaker 2: mm-hmm.

[00:54:05] Speaker 3: Products, I should say.

Um, but aside from that, like, do I believe [00:54:10] that there's enough growth left in. Um, the, you know, in the [00:54:15] market for us. And, and my answer is a hundred percent because I think that, [00:54:20] uh, when used responsibly, um, there's always a place for it. Yeah. And I think that, you know, some [00:54:25] people decide not to, some people, you know, that, that's absolutely fine.

We've got non-alcoholic beers as well, [00:54:30] but there's also the, the trend towards, um, uh, towards, uh, they call it no [00:54:35] low no alcohol or low alcohol. Yeah. And that's a growing segment of, of the market. So we wanna be [00:54:40] playing there as well.

[00:54:41] Speaker: Yeah.

[00:54:41] Speaker 3: Uh, and then aside from that, it's also people making choice of, um, [00:54:45] you know, it's, it's quality over quantity.

So the quantity might come down. Yeah. Got, but that's not [00:54:50] necessarily a bad thing for us because. They might choose to not have [00:54:55] five beers. They'll only have two, but they'll make those two better. Yeah. Better beers. Yeah. They wanna make a beer. And that's where we hope [00:55:00] that they choose us instead of anyone else because could you We've got great beer.

[00:55:03] Speaker: Yeah.

[00:55:03] Speaker 3: Okay. And, um, and so [00:55:05] we, and we are, we're still pretty small in the big scheme of things. Mm-hmm. Um, so in Victoria we might [00:55:10] be maybe 1% of the market if we're lucky. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we've got a lot [00:55:15] of market share growth before we start coming up against the macro trend of

[00:55:19] Speaker 2: [00:55:20] Sure.

[00:55:20] Speaker 3: Of decline.

[00:55:20] Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, you, you, you know, you've also do have an, a [00:55:25] pretty intrinsic hedging strategy in the fact that you, uh, a dining venue.[00:55:30]

[00:55:30] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:55:30] Speaker 2: Like, people might not be drinking alcohol, there's no one's gonna stop eating food. [00:55:35] And, and the dining aspect that you do, coming back to the purpose, right, where it's all about the memorable [00:55:40] experiences, you know, the community side of things like. You know, like when I stopped drinking [00:55:45] alcohol, I didn't save any money at all.

I was like, oh, this is gonna be great. One of the only [00:55:50] ones. Yeah. Well I was like, man, I'm spending, I was probably spending a couple hundred a week maybe, at [00:55:55] least on alcohol. And it's

[00:55:56] Speaker 3: like, yeah, it was very good. We like the, the tills haven't been kicking [00:56:00] over nearly as much since you left, mate,

[00:56:02] Speaker 2: but I found that like when I, I'd still go [00:56:05] out and then I was still buying just non elk drinks or food.

I'd be like, I'm not gonna drink. So just Yeah, [00:56:10] grab a pizza, guess

[00:56:10] Speaker 3: drink. But you don't have five of them. You only have one or two of them. Right. Like when I, 'cause I'm, I, I have [00:56:15] breaks, um, fairly regularly because I'm exposed to it. It's all around.

[00:56:18] Speaker 2: Sure.

[00:56:18] Speaker 3: Um, I'm on a break [00:56:20] right now and, and when I do, I find that I'll go out and I'll have one or two non outs, but I won't have like five or [00:56:25] six, which I would have if they were out.

[00:56:27] Speaker 2: I've got a funny theory on this. Yeah. This just be a very [00:56:30] controversial thing to say, but back in the day when I would go out and drink Right. And you're just getting rounds [00:56:35] in, there's a, um, collective, or let's just call it like the. [00:56:40] Aggregate intellectual quot of the group. Yes.

[00:56:44] Speaker 3: I [00:56:45] like where this

[00:56:45] Speaker 2: is going.

It's all kind of diminishing together.[00:56:50]

But when you are drinking the non elks

[00:56:52] Speaker 3: Yes.

[00:56:52] Speaker 2: Then you are not, you're still here. Yeah. And so [00:56:55] you've only got a couple in you before you know what catches later. You

[00:56:58] Speaker 3: guys are going there and I'm [00:57:00] still here. Yeah. So maybe

[00:57:01] Speaker 2: that's a thing. Okay. Second one's really functional. Right. So really functional around [00:57:05] strategy.

I'm just so keen to know how much time do you guys invest in [00:57:10] this with your team? So are you doing like quarterly strategy sessions with [00:57:15] OKRs and stuff like that? Or do you, are you working off like annual budget and managing [00:57:20] back lef, managing backwards from that monthly? What, what is that process for you guys?[00:57:25]

[00:57:25] Speaker 3: So in terms of, um, strategy, [00:57:30] interestingly, it doesn't change that much.

[00:57:33] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:57:34] Speaker 3: Um, [00:57:35] it's been relatively static for us. Um. And then it gets [00:57:40] tweaked. Yep. You know, annually.

[00:57:41] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:57:42] Speaker 3: Um,

[00:57:42] Speaker 2: you're working on an annual cadence

[00:57:44] Speaker 3: y [00:57:45] Yeah. At best. Wow. Um, and then even, like, I don't think our strategy is remarkably [00:57:50] different, um, today than it was 10 years ago.

Wow. From a strategy point of view. Okay. From a [00:57:55] tactical point of view and from an execution point of view and an operation point of that changes all the time. Right. And that [00:58:00] changes how are we gonna do this and how are we gonna execute. Mm-hmm. But in terms of the bigger picture [00:58:05] strategy, we're, we're an integrated business that has hospitality, um, at its heart [00:58:10] as well as a consumer, uh, our, uh, you know, beer brand.

[00:58:13] Speaker: Mm.

[00:58:14] Speaker 3: Those, and, [00:58:15] and how do we, and we create an exceptional experience at our venues that drives the [00:58:20] brand and, um, and makes it resonate with consumers. Mm-hmm. And, and you know, so, [00:58:25] and, and growth is about doing more of that.

[00:58:27] Speaker 2: Right. Eh, got it.

[00:58:28] Speaker 3: So it's not really [00:58:30] that groundbreaking from a strategy point of view.

Sure. I mean, there are always nuances and [00:58:35] there's always, um. Sort of tweaks, but, um,

[00:58:37] Speaker 2: but what I'm hearing there is like the, the template as it [00:58:40] were or the, the one page plan template doesn't really ever change. The components are [00:58:45] fairly fixed, but the content within those components is obviously gonna be really [00:58:50] relative to the environment at hand.

[00:58:52] Speaker 3: Uhhuh. Gotcha. Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:58:53] Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool.

[00:58:54] Speaker 3: And, and [00:58:55] I go as far as to say, like if you look at the last 10 years when we started, I don't think we had ambitions to be [00:59:00] a massive, um, we, like the wholesale was gonna be a massive part of our business. Mm-hmm. We wanted to do a [00:59:05] little bit of beer around, um, our local market.

[00:59:07] Speaker 2: Right.

[00:59:07] Speaker 3: Um, then, you [00:59:10] know, that became quite. You know, we really enjoyed doing that. And so that grew, and at one [00:59:15] point we had ambitions to be a national brand, so we wanted to take our beer Right. You know, to [00:59:20] everywhere in the country.

[00:59:21] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:21] Speaker 3: Um, and then, um, at some point in time our [00:59:25] strategy changed, uh, pivoted to be very Melbourne, Victorian centric.

[00:59:29] Speaker 2: Right.

[00:59:29] Speaker 3: Um, [00:59:30] to be, uh, because it was, we wanted to go really sort of deep instead of wide

[00:59:34] Speaker 2: [00:59:35] Yeah.

[00:59:35] Speaker 3: And thin. Um, so those are the changes that have happened in the 10 years, the main [00:59:40] changes that have happened in the 10 years. But, um, they're not kind. I mean, they're still very much, um, [00:59:45] you know, the main strategies are still the same.

[00:59:47] Speaker 2: So would you, I mean, is it on the cards that you would [00:59:50] take the leadership team on, like a retreat for a couple days and talk about the [00:59:55] year ahead? Did you do anything like that? Or is it just that there's so much happening day to day and you've got a good rhythm [01:00:00] in the way that you're managing that?

[01:00:01] Speaker 3: We'd like to do more of that. Yeah.

[01:00:02] Speaker 2: Okay.

[01:00:03] Speaker 3: But we don't do it. We, we have [01:00:05] a monthly leadership team meeting where we kind of look at what's happened and what's coming forward, and we kind of just want, [01:00:10] it's a, it's a. Opportunity for cross pollination of ideas and, and so [01:00:15] that the left hand knows what the right hand's doing and all that sort of stuff.

[01:00:18] Speaker: But I think the, the, it, [01:00:20] it is essentially an annual cadence in the sense, and then we manage it weekly and monthly. Mm-hmm. But [01:00:25] because in the, we, we'll start working on, um, uh, FY [01:00:30] 26, 27 budgets soon, um, and the [01:00:35] implementation process or the, or the rollout of those budgets, not just the rollout, but the input into [01:00:40] them, and then the execution of them, and then the, the ratifying of them is kind of [01:00:45] the annual strategy, um, sort of period as well with the leaders.

And we map [01:00:50] out what the year's gonna look like and why, and what we think, you know, what major leaders can be [01:00:55] pulled to improve on last year, and what areas are we focusing on. Those sorts of things.

[01:00:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:00:59] Speaker: Annually. And then we [01:01:00] look at it, um, weekly, sort of, um, uh, at one level and [01:01:05] then, and then monthly reporting.

[01:01:06] Speaker 2: Awesome. It's very good. Like that's a very good way to do it. [01:01:10] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:11] Speaker: It works. It works for us. It's hasn't always, I mean, you know, we've [01:01:15] had years where we've been rolling out budgets, you know, two weeks into July and things like that. But we, we [01:01:20] are getting better now. We're

[01:01:21] Speaker 3: getting better.

[01:01:22] Speaker: Yeah.

[01:01:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:01:23] Speaker 3: Slowly but surely we're getting better, [01:01:25]

[01:01:25] Speaker 2: man, I reckon. Um, we did an amazing job of staying on script today.

[01:01:29] Speaker 3: [01:01:30] Hey, well done.

[01:01:31] Speaker 2: Probably the first must be new you, [01:01:35] but I was gonna say as I'm as like, we close this out, like I'm a little bit [01:01:40] conflicted because Oh man. I just, I feel like, you know, without even [01:01:45] realizing it, like you guys are such an unreal like, example [01:01:50] of like business and, and how to bring really, really proven, [01:01:55] well-known academic concepts into practicality.

In, in it's, [01:02:00] it's almost like a seamless way, right? Like from my perspective, it might

[01:02:03] Speaker 3: seem, seems seamless on podcast, [01:02:05]

[01:02:05] Speaker 2: don't get me wrong. I know there's a lot of elbow grease and a lot of trials and tribulations, but the, [01:02:10] but at the end of the day, like that's everything, right? Mm. So it's, it's, the result has to speak for itself [01:02:15] and, you know, I, I mean, you know, without putting too much mayo on it, if you guys were hit [01:02:20] like a 70, 80 mil revenue point, you would probably [01:02:25] be a really good case study in any business school.

On the planet. So [01:02:30] we should work on that. Yeah. Okay.

[01:02:31] Speaker 3: Well, that's our plan. That's where we wanna

[01:02:33] Speaker 2: get to.

Exactly.

[01:02:34] Speaker 2: [01:02:35] So maybe those in the first 10 years, but No, but what, what, what my point is, is that like, I feel [01:02:40] like, you know, we could almost do seven episodes of this and it would just be [01:02:45] so useful for the hospitality community.

So, well,

[01:02:47] Speaker 3: let's check in once a year

[01:02:49] Speaker 2: and see how, I think that'll, how,

[01:02:49] Speaker 3: [01:02:50] if you're

[01:02:50] Speaker 2: not bad, if you're up for it. I'm totally down

[01:02:51] Speaker: Christmas special.

[01:02:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. Christmas New Year Special. New Year Special. Yeah. [01:02:55] Christmas new. Now look, um, hopefully, uh, you know, when we do chat in future, we can talk [01:03:00] about any kind of major changes.

Um, yeah. Because we've got, um, really exciting things coming up. Mm-hmm. And [01:03:05] we, we will have some more things to talk to you about in the new future, but Awesome. Uh, so watch this space. It's gonna be, it's gonna be a big [01:03:10] year for us. Yeah,

[01:03:10] Speaker 2: no, I'll hold you to that. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for doing it, guys. It's been a [01:03:15] pleasure.

[01:03:15] Speaker 3: Awesome. No, thanks having us. Cheers. Yeah. Loved it. Loved chatting about it and loved talking about all this stuff, so thanks.

[01:03:19] Speaker 2: Awesome. [01:03:20] Cheers boys. Cheers,

[01:03:20] Speaker 3: mate.

[01:03:21] Speaker 2: So that was. Wicked. Right? I just [01:03:25] absolutely love that conversation with, uh, Justin and Guy, right? They, you can just get the sense that [01:03:30] super authentic, super humble, and what they've done, you know, for [01:03:35] our industry is so incredible.

And the fact that they're so open book about it is, it's, it's not [01:03:40] surprising, really. So, I loved hearing about the purpose, you know, I really loved hearing [01:03:45] about how they put that all together. Um, and yeah, I think there's just some really [01:03:50] great lessons in there for everyone. So hopefully you guys enjoyed it.

Um, give us your feedback. If you [01:03:55] have any notes on it, if you thought anything resonated in particular, or if there's things that you [01:04:00] heard that they would doing that you wanna do and that you're struggling to do, hit us up at Pax, right? That's why we're [01:04:05] here. So, hello at PAX Melbourne. Reach out anytime.

We'd love to hear from you guys. We'll see you on the [01:04:10] next episode.