The PAX Hospitality Podcast
A podcast meant to be shared. For the hospitality industry, created by the team at PAX.
The PAX Hospitality Podcast
Hospitality's Social Media Conversion Kit
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On this episode, Loren Daniels (Head of Sales & Marketing at PAX) and Yolanda from Kiss the Cook Creative join the PAX table to dissect the biggest headache in hospitality marketing: social media. Stop obsessing over vanity metrics and start focusing on the core strategy - Awareness, Behaviour, and Conversion (ABC). This episode provides a practical, no-fluff guide on how to make social media work for your venue, not against it. Learn why your profile's 'architecture' is more important than virality, why an iPhone photo outperforms a professional shoot, and the sweet spot for posting frequency. Yolanda shares her on-the-ground tips for creating authentic, low-lift content, and Lauren reveals how your social setup impacts discoverability on platforms like ChatGPT. Tune in for the mechanical, working truth behind turning scrolling into seating.
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Welcome, Sponsors & Mailbag Invite
SPEAKER_02Season two of the PAX Hospitality Podcast is brought to you by Open Table. Welcome, PAX listeners, to today's episode. Today we're going to be talking about social media content. Before I actually lay down some context for today's episode, just want to start by saying thanks to everybody who is reaching out to us and sending us emails. We absolutely love hearing from you guys. And you can email us about anything, right? Like if you've got feedback on the show, if you want to fight us on stuff, come at us, right? It's hello at packs.melbourne. Thankfully, most of the emails we're getting aren't people trying to fight us. It's people that are actually giving us great feedback or they've just got something going on in their business that they want some advice for. And that's literally why we're here. So uh keep the emails coming. We love hearing from you guys. Um, today's episode is a big one. It's about social media content. And the first thing I I I need to say about this is that we are not experts at social media content. And the reason for that is because no one is, right? It's really, really hard to find anyone who can say I'm a well-accolated, certified social media expert. Now, there probably are people out there that say that, but the truth is the goalposts are just shifting all the time, right? It's really hard to stay across the technology, the algorithm, what's working, what's not. It's really, really formative, right? So all we wanted to do today was to just have a conversation. I wanted to basically talk a bit about our experiences with it, what we've found to be useful, how people should approach it. So I think for all of you out there, there's probably two real cohorts of people that are going to be listening to this. There's the people that are already doing social media, right? And they're probably doing it reasonably well. And for you guys, there's heaps of really cool practical tips that are going to help you do it better. And then there's probably some people that aren't thinking about this stuff or that haven't figured out a good approach to the best way to manage this stuff. And for you guys, there's heaps of tips that are going to help you make it less daunting so you can kind of go and get amongst it. So hope you enjoy the episode today. Lauren, Yolando, welcome to the show. Hi. Um, it's great to have you guys here. Uh, before we get stuck into it, I thought I'll just basically uh introduce you guys, give you guys a little bit of advice. So, Lauren, you obviously uh one of our amazing partners at PAX, focusing on everything marketing related. So thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_03Good to be here.
SPEAKER_02Um Yoel, uh, tell us a little bit about your business and why you're here.
SPEAKER_01My background's also in marketing, digital marketing. But I guess the last year is I've been working more specifically in content and the creative side and in hospitality specifically, which I love because it's super fun and super dynamic.
SPEAKER_02Plug your business.
Why Social Content Exists: ABC Framework
SPEAKER_01Plug my business. It feels so unnatural, you know. Um, it's just me. I am from Kiss the Cook Creative. Um, and that's exactly what it is. No kissing chefs, but um just some alliteration. But yeah, I just um I work with hospitality businesses um from end to ends, marketing touch points, so strategy, web, uh, EDMs, all of that, all kind of content, um, including social media, which is what we're gonna be talking about today.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. First question, it's a big one, and it's really hard to explain. So we're just putting it straight off the top. What is social media content actually for?
SPEAKER_01I think that it has relevancy for the whole customer journey, right? So it's like used for discovery, it's used for building curiosity, people discovering who you are. And then it's also um driving behaviors. So bookings, getting people through the door, getting people to your website, traffic, all of that. And then it's also fostering loyalty, it's building community. So I think it's really got a very wide range of uses.
SPEAKER_02Okay, there's so much in that. First thing I heard was awareness. It's it's a tool to um increase awareness. Uh, then I heard it's behavioral, right? Can you talk more about that? How's it behavioral? Like what's an example of how, you know, if I start viewing an account on social media that I really like, how do I go from, oh, now I'm aware of that brand to now they've actually conditioned my behavior? And I know that's a really deep question.
SPEAKER_03You'd be sharing it with your friends. You'd be Ah, that's what you mean. Yeah. Well, I think so. You'd be like amplifying this thing that you're really curious about and sharing that with friends that you want to have that experience with. You'd be thinking about making a booking.
SPEAKER_02You'd be I guess spending money.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's the behavior of it. Yeah. Got you.
SPEAKER_03Ultimately, like there's two like it's a conversion platform. It can be, but it's also like an aspirational front door window to your, to your, to what you're selling.
SPEAKER_02Okay. This is really good because um you just hit an an awesome acronym there, right? Awareness, behavior, conversion, A, B, C.
SPEAKER_03A, B, C.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So that alone is not a bad way for people that don't really do what you guys do to think about how to approach this part of their business. Yeah. Right. Because we're not talking about, you know, how do I become a fitness influencer? We're talking about if you've got a cafe, if you've got a bar, or if you've got a restaurant, how do I use social media to my advantage at the end of the day? And I feel like when I say that, it sounds really commercial, but that is a big part of it. But the storing to storytelling piece is also an equally big part of it. Like maybe your ROI isn't financial, maybe your ROI is mission-driven or impact-driven, and that awareness in itself is the conversion. But if we come back to that, I think there's a lot to unpack there, right? Awareness, behavior, conversion. I love that you say conversion because correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I feel about it is that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses, right? Like w I wish we could do this, but we can't. But if we just randomly picked, like, you know, five social media accounts and we and we audited them, you know, on this podcast, like I I would almost put money on it that that would be the piece that's missing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and not to mention the other two are pretty, you know, significantly compromised because that piece is missing. Yeah. Can you talk a bit about that? Like, what do you guys would did I get that right? Am I missing anything there?
SPEAKER_03There's a lot of um personal attachment to social media too. So when something is posted, it's and you'll probably echo this, having worked in hospitality for years, so many people just care about the likes or care about how many followers I've got. Maybe how many comments, right? I mean, they're all good, but how do they then convert to coming to experience what's in your venue? Um, and we'll talk about kind of authenticity posts and stuff in in a little bit. But yeah, so many operators are so concerned with what the content actually looks looks like far more than the the reason why we're doing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I'd love I've got two questions here. Like one for you is like, why do you think business owners do that? But before I ask you that, I'd love to know from you, Yo, like when you're working with a new client, let's just say, how prevalent are those factors and and and what do you do about it? Like, how do you try to overcome them?
Vanity Metrics Vs Real Conversion
SPEAKER_01I think it's like what you were saying before about how some content is mission driven and then some is, you know, wanting to get people through the door. Like what your your strategy, depending on what you want from your social media, looks very different. And I think a lot of people think that like virality and something, you know, going viral or getting a lot of engagement performing well, which we'd call vanity metrics, is a measure of success. And like it is a measure of success if what you're looking for is things like, you know, building community, um, you know, establishing brand identity, um, even credibility. Like if you go to an account and you see people have a lot of engagement and a lot of views and things like that, like there is an element of that. Um, but if it's more to do with wanting conversions, wanting bookings, wanting um, you know, money essentially at the end of the day, profit, then the strategy is different. And I think that it's talking to people and saying, well, like what is your priority here? Are you trying to be like this is who we are, or are you trying to get more bookings on a Thursday lunchtime slot?
SPEAKER_00You know?
SPEAKER_01And if it's the latter, then it's about, well, how do we optimize the actual content to tell that story? And often it's less about things looking really exciting and being really fun. Well, there's an element of that, but it's more to do with making sure that things are optimized. There's call to actions. When people land on your profile, the booking journey is easy. Um, you know, people can easily find through the bio link in your bio how to book a table.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, the stuff that might be a little bit less exciting, but it's still really important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's more mechanical, but it fucking works. I mean, I'd love to know more about the fact that like, you know, you talk about vanity metrics, right? And it's and it's really important to understand what that means. Because something that you said then, um, what I heard in it is that like, you know, virality isn't necessarily correlated with an increase in revenue. Sometimes it that does happen, but maybe the the bit that I think people don't talk about enough is that you might have a post that just goes berserk, but is that still attracting the right segment of the market for you? You know, so I'll give you an example of that, right? Like um, I had someone reach out to me once ages ago, and they were showing me this example of this um what was it? It was like a you know, like one of those like nighttime eateries, but they're just kind of open all day, and usually you see them on like South Bank and shit. It was like one of those, right? And their whole um social media presence was all really like TikTok trend based. And man, fair play, they were rocking it, right? Like they're in so much exposure, and you know, speaking to the the dude that owned it, they were like cranking at the same time, like super busy. And I was fortunate enough that he showed me like actual numbers, right? And I could see it, and it was like, you know, that's what we were doing in revenue, that's when we put someone on social media. It wasn't um a like it wasn't like an an expert like you guys are, someone who was like in the who was working on the roster who like was like, oh, I could maybe do it. Um and then they just started, you know, loading up on the trends. And what they basically did was um just my belief, my opinion of it, right, was that what they did was they built up this really, really strong customer base that was actually quite fickle. And none of those customers were coming in for the brand, none of them were coming in for you know the reason that this dude got into hospitality in the first place. They were all coming in for the bottomless brunch, you know, and it was like, okay, you know what? How do you reconcile that in your mind? Because on one hand, you could say, well, fuck the mission. If I'm busy now and I'm making money and they're and I'm and the transaction is a bottomless brunch, like fine. But then the trade-off is that you know they're not actually getting people to come in and build loyalty. How do you break that stuff down?
SPEAKER_03It's a lot in that land.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Think of word of mouth, right? Traditional word of mouth, in that that is something that can never really be measured. And I think a lot of the impact of social media is something that we can never measure because it is um it is a bit of window shopping. So whilst the conversion of that customer who, who, who is all about the bottomless branch and is coming in and they're spending the money, like we want, we want that. But how many people looked at that post and did nothing with it that will still come in for the bottomless brunch, right?
SPEAKER_02Is there a trade-off between, you know, going for virality, even if the outcome is a is a cost to loyalty? Is that a strategy that you would endorse?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think if we look at it uh at restaurants, it's a different game in comparison to maybe a takeaway coffee shop that's going to jump on a matcha trend.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03So it it would kind of be venue specific. Viral trends can be like if it makes sense within your brand to do a tricked up matcha, hell yeah, do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But if it doesn't make sense and you're doing it just for the point of virality, it then yeah, you're kind of compromising.
SPEAKER_01I think to have virality, you need to have a few elements, and like one of them is novelty, and then one of them is entertainment value, you know. So like if you're willing to put someone in front of a camera and they can be super engaging and silly and do all these like skits, and you have the resources and that fits within your brand, then maybe that's a strategy that could work for you. And same as Lauren said, like if you have a product that's really novel that is going to get a lot of attention and make a stir. But if it's just, you know, your typical restaurant who wants is values more quality and consistency and custom, you know, customers who are loyal and repeating, then I think that social media is more of a slow burn, you know.
Setting Strategy: Mission Or Bookings
SPEAKER_02Right. So can you tell me, like, if we if we say right, like we'll stick to that, those foundations around like, you know, awareness, behavior, and conversion are some pretty good foundations to build a social media strategy on. But just pretend like I've never seen social media before, I've never thought about how to use it in my business. Where do I start? How would you explain this to me in a way where I can um appreciate it and and buy into the plan?
SPEAKER_01I think the first thing I would do would be to optimize your profile. So if you have a few posts, maybe have things, you know, from five years ago and like very sporadic posting. I'd go in and I'd clean up what you have existing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um What does that mean? As in like delete the stuff that's not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like have a look at it and be first work out like, well, how do I want to come across? Like when people, you know, interact with me and land on my page, what do I want them to think and what do I want them to see?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Go back, get rid of the stuff that's no longer relevant, um, that isn't a strong storytelling piece or is outdated visually. And then make sure that little things like your bio, like, is it clear to people know straight away who you are from that? Things like location can be really beneficial, or if you're, you know, a sandwich shop, even just having like sandwich shop opening hours, things that are very clear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then your links, so your profile. So really you want your profile to drive traffic back to things like your website, bookings, if you have events. So making sure that that pathway is clear.
SPEAKER_03So before you're even looking at the the content, it's like the architecture is the first thing going, are we set up here to be optimized?
SPEAKER_02Okay, that's really valid. I mean, could I argue then that if that's step one is step zero, building your brand book? And actually, because I might go, yeah, all right, I need to make sure that my bio or whatever like says who I am, but what if I don't know who I am?
SPEAKER_03Like, absolutely. And that's everything that we care about in terms of what we do in in Paxland is your your your purpose statements, your your visions, who are you, what what do you sell, what are you doing? Yeah, hell yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Typically, a lot of restaurants haven't had the luxury or time to do that. So if Yolanda's getting pulled in as somebody to help on social media, often you're not handed a brand book, would that would that be correct? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But people, people, if you ask someone like who they want to be seen as or who they think they are, they have an answer that you can very easily transcribe into you know an Instagram bio. Yeah, um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02So so you so you would sit down with someone who hasn't got a brand book and just ask those questions first and foremost.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like you know, who are you? What do you want people to know for what's your mission essentially? Because I think, I mean, you're not gonna put that in the bio, but I think that is a big part of tailoring the tone of content, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yep. I mean, it's it's it's interesting because it's like, you know, it might not be a brand book, but you're just gonna map out some parameters and then figure out how to curate. So then you would go into like look at the feed, curate it to make sure it's um aligned with those parameters or a brand book if they got it, then go into the architecture stuff, which is um to recap, it was like make sure the bio just says what you do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Don't be weird and quirky, right?
SPEAKER_01I mean, like if that's part of your brand identity is to be a bit weird and quirky, like maybe throw in a couple of emojis or, you know, a one-liner that kind of shows that. But I think the most important thing is clarity. Like when you're setting everything up, you just want everything to be really clear. You just want to make it as easy for people as possible to know who you are and how to visit you and how to make a booking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So what are the bits on that? Like if we're just talking about Instagram specifically, I've got the bio to play with. There's a link I can put in. What should that link be to my website or to the booking, like it should like the booking button, or what what what do we what do you find works the best?
SPEAKER_03You've got the capability in Instagram to put several links in.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Without paying for a third party. So hit your website, hit your hit the menu page of your website directly. Sure. Sell gift vouchers, make a booking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like the stuff that um is is a really clear call to action, and you just don't want people having to navigate through your website to find it, like just take them straight there.
SPEAKER_02Okay. What are the most common barriers that you next hit? Like, say you've done that, say you're working with a business owner that's super into this and they're really accommodating and they're not uh delusional, right, about like it has to feel this way, but give you this really abstract direction, you know, abstract direction. Um so how do you then what happens next? Is it just like, okay, cool, architecture looks good, parameters are all pretty set. Now it's a matter of like, let's go put some content out there.
SPEAKER_01Essentially, I think that people overthink content a little bit too much. I think that's definitely a barrier to entry.
SPEAKER_02And what do you what do you mean by that? How do they overthink it?
SPEAKER_01I think people think that it needs to be much more polished than it does. I think people are like trying to brand things and putting all their fonts on it or trying to like talk in a certain type of language or um trying to make it look like Chef's table. Yeah, pretty much.
Start Here: Brand, Profile, Links
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and I I get that. Like there's a lot of personality in the product in in the restaurant space, and uh the people that are preparing that product are very proud of what they're putting forward. And it can be a big learning for them to go, okay, the content that's going out isn't as shiny as what I may have been used to if I'm using just professional photography. And for your role, it's about educating them on well, the the benefit of putting out something that looks a little bit more real time is a higher conversion. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So that's what it comes down to, right? So that's so the so then let's just assume they're cool with that and it's like now let's start putting some content out. Where do you run into like like what are some of the logistical barriers that you then encounter?
SPEAKER_01Hospitality is its own beast in that way because people are busy, you know? Like people are busy and they have a lot to do and you know, service is so tight. And even before service, like there's things to do, you know. So I think one barrier is definitely just time and resources. Like if it's just if you're in house, if you're just an owner, operator, or a staff member trying to take content, it can be difficult purely from a time and resourcing perspective, not wanting to step on the kitchen's toes, things like that, you know. I think you have to be very agile and be able to work around people in my role. That's a big part of it, is like being knowing when to step out of the way and when to jump over someone's shoulder, you know?
SPEAKER_00Got it.
SPEAKER_01And then I think people just don't really know where to start. They don't know what they should be making content of, you know? And I think that if you had to just do it, do one thing and just go really like back to basics, it would be like, why should people come this week?
SPEAKER_00Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01So, like, is there a special that you're doing this week? Is there a cocktail that everyone's been loving, you know, over the last couple of weeks? Like, what is something current that's happening that you could tell a story about? And then just finding, I guess, where to where works in the venue to take those, that imagery. Like, find a couple of corners where's the like natural light is always a good thing to look for, nice surfaces. I think finding those little pockets where you know you can reliably just like throw a plate down and take a good dish will save you so much time because people don't care about it's like what Lauren was saying before about the professional photography. People don't care about that anymore. We don't need to see like different stylized shoots and you see time and time. That stuff doesn't perform. Like if you put up an iPhone photo next to a professional photo, the iPhone photo like 99% of the time will outperform like 100%.
SPEAKER_00That much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's definitely a place of professional photography, but I there's and and both on the feed too, you know. Like I think they both have um have their time and place, but yeah, it'll save you time to just work out a a um a routine that works for you.
SPEAKER_02So something that I heard in what you said that really has like triggered something is um like I remember ages and ages and ages ago when I used to work in London, right, as a waiter. And this is when I would have been like 19 or something. And I didn't it I just hated the concept of upselling. Like hated it, right? And I remember um the thing that changed my life on this was this guy that I was working with would just say, like, you know, there'd always be like the chef would be like, Here's what you gotta sell tonight, guys, like go and do it. And there would always be a tally, and whoever got the most sales would get like, you know, a shot of tequila or whatever. And I would just I just didn't engage with it. And this one guy I was working with and be like, Why don't you do that? And I was like, I don't know, I just feel weird about just selling people shit that you know that they might not need or want. I feel like it's a special time for them. Like, why am I just gonna get in their face and upsell them on something? It's just it's annoying. And he said, Man, you got it all wrong, right? Like, you're not selling anyone anything, okay, but you work in the service industry. So if you have information that they don't have, you're obligated to share it. Okay, so you're not going over to someone and being like, hey, today we've got this special from Johnny. It's a pasta recipe and it's this is like you're not doing that. You actually, the bit of information is that Johnny's put his grandma's pasta recipe on as a lunch special today. How would they know that if you don't tell them? That's all you gotta say. And often when you explain it in that way, more they're more than likely to go, all right, I'll try that. So it changed everything for me. So I found like even things like you know, putting down On a cocktail list, it sort of being like, Can I interest you guys with a couple of cocktails like that? But what I would often say is like, hey, if you guys are thinking about a cocktail before dinner, those two there are like the best aperatives. And half the time before I walk away, they'll be like, Yeah, two of those thanks. And so this idea around not selling, but just sharing information, you put it as storytelling. Like, is that a good differentiator that people can use when they're trying to figure out what sort of content to do? 100%.
SPEAKER_01I think that people forget that there are things that they know that other people don't know. You know, like every time I'm asking someone, like, oh, what dish should we highlight? And they're like, Oh, I don't know, like, oh, and then they always end up being one that they were like, Oh, well, I was meeting with the producer the other week and he told me this great story about this. Like, there's all of this context and interesting detail that goes into a cocktail menu, a menu that people just take for granted, I think. But yeah, they are that's a great way to shape because people, it's all down to the human element of everything, you know. That's why professional photography doesn't perform as well anymore because people want to feel that it's authentic. They want to feel that they're there with you and they are a part of something, you know, it's almost like a third space. So the more information you can give someone about that, yeah, that's definitely a great pillar to help shape content.
SPEAKER_02So I feel like, you know, it's massive and it it it differentiates for me really clearly, like, you know, the difference between that post that says, hey, you know, this is a drink that we've got on and this is why we love it, as opposed to a photo of the bar saying we're open.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? Like like that shit is just filler, but it's everywhere, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so the the next question I've got for you on that is whet what is the right balance between quality and quantity in that regard? Like, is just good frequency and posting five times a week that aren't all hits better than posting twice a week that are really well optimized posts?
SPEAKER_01No, I think that I love it that you asked that question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So talk me through it. Why, why?
Ditch Perfection: Authentic Beats Polished
SPEAKER_01I think consistency is more important than um quantity. And I think that if you can be consistent with only one post a fortnight, but it's a good post, I think that's more important than just like throwing stuff out there. Gotcha. Because you're not building trust when you're doing that. Like if people, if every, you know, you're only seeing one good piece of content for every five pieces, like you're gonna lose trust. People aren't gonna, you're not telling that story powerfully, you know. Um, so yeah, I think consistency is much more important. Obviously, there are some boring things like the we're opens that need to happen, you know. I think that people sleep on stories as a way to tell some of those things because stories, as opposed to a feed post, usually actually get more eyes on them.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01So if you're trying to do something that's less about people engaging with it and it's less of a storytelling post and it's more just operational, we're closed this public holiday. Stories can actually be a great way to do that.
SPEAKER_02So, what about the fear that if I'm not posting every day, I won't get, I'll get, I'll pretty much get dissed by the algorithm.
SPEAKER_01I think at the moment the sweet spot's more like two to three posts on the feed a week. Two to three feed posts that are quite dynamic, like a real or a carousel is probably better. The algorithm's gonna favor that because it, you know, just spamming content out all the time does not get uh like recognized anymore.
SPEAKER_02Got it. So if you're just constantly putting posts out, but they're low engagement, yeah, totally get shunned by the algorithm harder.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, essentially. So any, I would say spam the stories if you're gonna spam anything. You kind of can't go too hard on the stories. So yeah, focus on that.
SPEAKER_03Just on this, I think like where Yo's because she's just on on the ground doing this stuff, is like, well, what are what are the rules or what other like guiding things can we talk to in terms of takeaways? Like, should everyone be on TikTok or should we not? Cool. Like, should we? Should we is Facebook dead? Is it not? Like, I I feel like these are the questions that some of our restaurants have.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I have those questions. What is the answer?
SPEAKER_01I think Instagram, TikTok is super exciting, but I think Instagram is still king, particularly in this industry because they're different beasts. And TikTok, I mean, I like to think about like TikTok is for discovery, and then Instagram is more for kind of conversions. Instagram is more for that's where you're gonna see more people driving to make bookings and things like that. And Instagram is still the key decision-making platform. Like people might be going on Instagram when they're going on holidays. There might be quite a tourist element of like discovery on TikTok, but Instagram in general is still where people are making decisions when it comes to where they're going out for dinner and things like that.
SPEAKER_02So I would say is that anecdotal or is that like is there someone done a report on this?
SPEAKER_01They have, I have couldn't quote one right now, but like yeah, 100%. Yeah, the data shows that Instagram is still, particularly for people who are like 25 to 45, you know, like in that demographic. People are on TikTok, but they're using it more as like a passive scrolling entertainment kind of platform, whereas Instagram is more where they're searching, they're going to websites, them like getting off platform essentially.
SPEAKER_03I've used it when I've been overseas, I think it was on holiday in Thailand, and I wanted to find the right kind of like I'm eating fish on barbecue fish on the on the right on the sand. And so I used the map function within Instagram to zoom in and to look at the photos that other people had shared. Oh nice all around there. And it was like, okay, there's three kind of interesting photos of that fish at that place. I'm now gonna figure out what that place is and how I can engage with it. Gotcha. Like you would never do that on TikTok. TikTok is like like you say, it's an entertainment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay, so then um, like what about the the case for I want to be active in both, but I just want to use the one set of content? Like, what are the trials and tribulations I'm gonna experience if I just, you know, use the same posts on both platforms?
SPEAKER_01They favor different types of content. There's definitely some crossover. If you've got a reel that performs well on Instagram and it's short and it's snappy, you can probably just put that on TikTok. I guess there's no real harm in like in having a go and seeing what, yeah, because TikTok's quite unpredictable, you know, like you never know what's gonna perform and what's not. But in general, I would focus on Instagram and TikTok if you have someone who's comfortable being in front of the camera, if you have a staff member who like loves it, you know, a 19-year-old server who's like up with all the trends and has all these like great fun ideas and has a natural banter with the kitchen, like that can be a good way to utilize that person to kind of get on there and do some stuff.
SPEAKER_02Hey, but there are some um like epic TikTok accounts that aren't just doing the the mindless fun entertainment, they're doing the educational entertainment. Like, um, I can't think of any right now, but like someone was showing me one, and it's kind of weird because it it almost um like crosses over into YouTube territory.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But there are some chefs out there that are just doing like Michelin star psychos doing some crazy techniques and whatnot and putting it on TikTok and it's just getting mad play.
What To Post This Week
SPEAKER_03Think about the post editing, think about the resources required to do that. Yeah, I think when uh considering your platform choices too, it's like, what do we have time for? Yeah. And we're imagining that a lot of uh operators probably don't have somebody in-house doing social media. So can I really do Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram and do it all well? Probably not. So how do what should we be consolidating on? And from what you say, it's like if Instagram's king, let's just focus on the colour.
SPEAKER_01It's much better to do one thing well than to do multiple things poorly, you know. And Instagram, I still think, like, particularly for restaurants, like I think Instagram, yeah, Instagram is more than enough. And if you're killing it on Instagram and you've got some reels that are going crazy and they're really fun and engaging, like put them on TikTok.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, check them out.
SPEAKER_01But the other element of TikTok is that it's more to do with other people creating content around you, you know, people are less engaging with restaurants posting about themselves and more about, you know, food content creators who are going to restaurants and sharing like my five top, you know, places for a sandwich in Melbourne. So I think the best TikTok strategy is to make sure that your offer is good and that when people come to you, they're having a good experience and they have something to talk about.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Awesome. In hospitality, you plan for a full house, but no shows still happen. Regulars walk in and go unrecognized. You're running blind on who's actually coming through that door. Open Table gives you the visibility you're missing. Guest profiles, so your team knows it's Sarah's third visit this month. Real-time insights so your staffing's smart, not guessing. Automated confirmations that help reduce no shows. The result? Help to fill more seats. Service that feels personal and a team focused on what they do best. Learn more today at opentable.com.au slash restaurant dash solutions. Where do you want to go next? Like, I feel like, yeah, we've inadvertently covered a lot of ground there.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Do you want to pull on some of those strings or is there something new you want to introduce to this conversation?
SPEAKER_03I will go geeky. Okay. And you'll love it.
SPEAKER_02Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03Yolanda might have a yawn, but uh I've been listening to this restaurant AI podcast and I love it. It's so dry.
SPEAKER_02But but wait, when you say restaurant AI, yeah, it's a it's a podcast about A.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm not just listening to Chat GPT in the car. One of the episodes recently covered just search, so and how and the and the play of social media in um things like Chat GPT, right? Like I'm going on holidays, so many people are using um ChatGPT to generate itineraries now. And what it's scraping and and building those itineraries is is websites and listings and a little bit of social, but the social side of it was only like 15% in comparison to the information on your website, listings, so like in my broadsheets, in my timeouts, that kind of thing. And I find that wildly interesting when thinking about conversion. So the architecture setup of having my profile right, all of my links, the website goes to the right spot, that in some ways is so much more important for conversion when it when thinking about this space.
SPEAKER_02Sure. As in that architecture is more important than the quality of your content.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's not scraping the content when it's spitting out. Should Taco restaurant here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Does it say I'm a taco restaurant on my profile? Then then I might get kind of spat out or scraped in in the search.
SPEAKER_02There's like a whole new algorithm. Yeah, it's so fascinating.
SPEAKER_03The world of like search now.
SPEAKER_02So your advice is that there's a huge trend of like people discovering and making purchasing decisions using a platform that's not even Instagram.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And but you can set up your Instagram in a way that gets you exposure on that platform. Yeah, exactly. Architecture is the way to do it.
SPEAKER_03Architecture is the way to do it, and and consistency in your message across all of your platforms. So your website, your Instagram, and I've spoken about this a lot on some of our other podcasts, but consistency is key.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, in that. Anyway, that's quite boring, but I found it fascinating.
SPEAKER_02I think it's really good because it's like, you know, it's another big strong argument for don't get ahead of yourself and get, you know, romantically caught up in what your Chef's table-esque Instagram can look like. It's like come back to reality and just get conversion sorted. Yeah. And then if you've got conversion sorted and you're hitting your revenue targets week in, week out, go for it. Do the chef's table thing, knock yourself out. But don't see that as the thing that's gonna save your revenue gap.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Frequency, Stories, And The Algorithm
SPEAKER_02Like it doesn't work that way around. Or does it? I mean, uh is there some people listening to this right now being like, yes, it does, you dickheads.
SPEAKER_03Like, I do this all the time. Probably. And that well, the thing about social media in general is that what we say today doesn't mean it's it's what it is tomorrow. Like it's just such a beast. So we talk about it from the perspective of like being so specific in restaurants, what we say about it could be completely irrelevant to you managing your sunscape boarding account.
SPEAKER_02Like sure.
SPEAKER_03It's yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like what you were saying before, like great content might get people in the door once for something. But in order for that to be consistent, I think that optimization is more important. And it's not just about the profile, it's like the touch points on your post as well. So, like geo tagging, like, you know, Lauren's like searching for things, using that. Like that's free advertising, you know? So if you've got great content, but you're not geo tagging it, you're not using a couple relevant searchable hashtags, you're just kind of missing out on um that searchability aspect of it.
SPEAKER_02It's a really selfish question. The thing about hashtags, like, why are they so like I've I've never used hashtags to search for anything, but is that just I'm just the only one and they're really important?
SPEAKER_01Or well, it's less so that people will like search a hashtag and more like if you've got hashtag like Mexican restaurant or something, and people's algorithm is trying to send them Mexican restaurants, it's more likely to come up like on your explore page, things like that. But I think some people do search with them, from what I understand.
SPEAKER_03So would you say they're still relevant? Is is there a rule from your perspective on I'm doing a post?
SPEAKER_01Do I have to put a hashtag on every uh not every post, but I think like, for example, things that you are really trying to amplify. So if you have like a steak night or something, for instance, yeah, um, that's a good time to use hashtags. Best I mean, it probably will change tomorrow again, but best practice right now I think is like three to four. And I usually put them in the first comment if I'm gonna use them because um it's good to kind of tuck them away. You know, they do look a bit ad-like. So um at the end of the comment, sorry, the end the in the first comment at the end of the caption, somewhere like that, and something, yeah, steak night, Wednesdays, you know, suburbs, things like that, locations. Um, but not every post. If it's just a pretty picture or it's something that's more based on entertainment value, then yeah, don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_02A question I've got for you is, you know, let's just assume I've got a restaurant, um, my revenue's down, right? And I'm on board with everything you're saying. Right. I'm I'm literally gonna be like, here's the fucking keys, sort it out. Okay, so you come in, you'd figure out those parameters, or bet if I don't have a brand book, you you'd figure out those parameters around who I am and what I'm trying to achieve. Um I'm assuming within those parameters you'd figure out where's the low-hanging fruit in terms of conversion, and we're gonna focus on those. Uh, get the architecture right, okay, and then it is all about the actual content. And the thing that I think we've talked about today that I find really fascinating is how do you incorporate the storytelling, the mission, the sharing of information that a customer couldn't foreseeably obtain on their own? Like, how do you incorporate all those things into the content? So if I'm sitting there listening to this and I don't have someone like you to engage to help me, um, and I'm just gonna try and work through it myself, right? So I'll do all those things. When I get to that bit, got any tips? Like what how how should I cause because I feel like this could be really overwhelming when you get to that stage, right? Yeah. Everything else is really mechanical and tangible and like you said, a little bit boring, but I can do that, right? Like that's just chip away at it, get it all done. But then if it's like, okay, now create the content, motherfucker. Like, what am I gonna do now? Like, how am I gonna go and sit down with the chef and try and capture those things? What what what advice would you have for me to try and make that less daunting?
Instagram Vs TikTok For Restaurants
SPEAKER_01One of the easiest ways is just to get people to speak, like from a probably practical, like, storytelling perspective, the easiest way is just for p someone to say words, you know, which is kind of um contingent on people feeling comfortable on camera. So, I mean, if I had a restaurant and I was like trying to start social media, the first thing I would do would be to pull all of the team together and to have a talk to my team and be like, hey guys, like I think we need to be, I want you guys to be involved in this, like kind of trying to, and this is what I see like places that have great social media often have great culture because people are on board and people want to see it succeed and people want to be an ambassador for where they work. So I think the first thing would be to have a conversation with everyone and be like, hey guys, let's do this together, let's make it fun, like you know, let's be silly, it doesn't need to be perfect. Trying to build that kind of culture is really important. Then from a format perspective, I think hearing people talk is a very straightforward way to do that. So if you've got a cocktail special on, it's the bartender being like, this is out, blah, blah, blah. I'm loving this right now because it's got this and that. You know, is it an Australian spirit? Talk about the producer. Carousels are performing really well right now, like mixed media carousels, which I think are a great way to kind of tell that story in a bit more of a dynamic way. You can have a video of the chef, you know, plating something and talking about it as he's plating it. You can have just like a top-down with people's hands and things, and even like showing that is storytelling, you know? Even showing someone like eating the steak in a way is storytelling, as opposed to just like a really stylized image of it. So I think it's just about trying things, being creative, and like we were saying before, not being too hung up on it being perfect.
SPEAKER_02Could I throw something in there? And this is purely experiential, right? But like like using my son's skating Instagram as an example, right, which I completely curate, a good week for me is when I'm going into Monday and the three or four posts I want to do are just already in draft. And so I wake up in the morning, bang, hit the button, and it's just and it's great, right? And some weeks I don't do that, right? Like maybe it was raining, we didn't get to skate or something like that. And in those instances, I'm scrambling because I'm like, fuck, I still want to get some posts out, but I don't really have the the usual parameters that I work within. I'm curious to know, like what I've have found to be the difference for me is getting used to a shitload of editing. So I didn't realize this like when I took this on, I didn't realize like just how much time I would be spending on my phone watching clips of him landing tricks and then trying to piece things and finding amazing stories in those sessions that I didn't think were there when we were in the session, but it comes at it. So I just think that could be something that I think a lot of people underestimate is that yeah, one part of it is gonna be capturing clips, but also be prepared. If you're spending two hours in one session trying to capture content, you probably need to spend at least that in then the refinement and the editing of it. Have I got that right or am I just missing something?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I think that's it depends on the format. Like if you're doing reels, I think reels take so much more time than people think they will.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01Um, that's why I love carousels right now, though, particularly for hospitality, because like, you know, a couple, three static photos that you took on your phone, and then like three videos that are like five to 10 seconds long, you know, even if it's just a drink going into frame or someone just saying like one sentence or even just like a candid video of staff laughing behind the bar, it can be really, it's like low-hanging fruit. It's really simple to grab, it doesn't need much editing. Um, and it's more the curation of those clips that come together that makes a full post as opposed to needing that more structured editing process, which is still has, you know, definitely a place. But if you're time poor, yeah, polished reels are probably not the way to go.
SPEAKER_02Okay, got you. And and that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you can back it up in other ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um, I would I've got a list of stuff which I thought it would be cool to just rattle it off, and then you tell me, you know, why this is good and how I should use it. So hashtags we did. Anything you want to add to hashtags though?
SPEAKER_01Just sparingly and direct.
SPEAKER_02Just sparingly and direct. Okay. Geo tagging?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Always. I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And sorry, just correct, just uh this is a bit naive of me, but you're talking about the location on the post.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what location should I put?
SPEAKER_01Um, either your restaurant, the name of the venue, uh, or the suburb. Like a the the more local, the better.
SPEAKER_02So is is suburb better than name of the restaurant? Because if no one knows my restaurant.
SPEAKER_01I think the way that geo tagging, I could be wrong, but I think the way that it works is like it still will show up in that area, like the way that it's groups, like it will still be part of that that area. So I'm not too sure if it if it which is better, but I think either would is good. Either is better than none.
SPEAKER_02Then none. Okay, got you. Resharing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that you know, influence marketing was once a thing, but influence marketing is pre-dead now, particularly in hospitality, like e-commerce and stuff is a bit of a different kind of thing. But I think for hospitality, like UGC is in lieu of influencer content now, and it's a really powerful thing that you can use. So I think, yeah, like reshare, but not blindly. I think only reshare things that actually tell the story the way you want it to be told, that reflect well on you. I think just if it exists within the parameters that you have set up at the beginning there, then go for it. But just spamming out stuff that's not necessarily aligned with you or the way you want to come across is not um a great strategy. And another thing I really notice in Hospo is people will throw up collaborator reels that they haven't discussed with you before. Someone's just come in, they're trying to build their profile, so they'll tag you as a collaborator. And I'd be really hesitant to accept those unless it's a partnership that you've already kind of discussed and yeah, has some strategy behind it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a really good one. I mean, I recently or a while ago, um, I saw an example of like this very north side. This is a bit of a controversial Melbourne thing to say, but like a very north side restaurant um did this event for a very south side company and then re shared it on their profile. Like that, you know, they obviously did all their reels and shit, and then they put some on their Their Instagram account, and it was so grating. It was just so like I was like, oh, something's not computing in my brain here right now. So you're saying like avoid that. Don't just reshare for the sake of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02Which is back to the quality over quantity thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Reels kind of talked about that a little bit as well. But what would you add to that?
Search, AI, And Conversion Architecture
SPEAKER_01I think reels are kind of king of reach right now. Um, if you're trying to get lots of eyes, reels are a good way to go. Try it depends. Hospital is actually kind of unique in that I find longer reels perform better than they do in other industries, which I think talks to how people want that storytelling aspect. You know, people want to know the story is in their favorite restaurant. So sometimes long reels are good, but I'd say try and keep it between like 10 and 15, 20 seconds.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, captions also are pretty important on reels now, um, like the closed captions because people are often watching things in silence. Like people are just scrolling now all the time, like on the train, like things like that. So, particularly if there's a lot of speaking in the reel, having like simple text, um, don't go crazy on the text, but if it's a steak night, you know, like steak Wednesdays at the beginning, something like that, captions on the reel, that can really boost um your engagement and your reach.
SPEAKER_02Do you have any intel for me on the reel itself? Like you said, 15 to 20 seconds is the sweet spot, um, which I'm cooking bad because all the ones I do on my son's skate insta are like 40 plus.
SPEAKER_01But it depends again, like sometimes a really long reel will perform really well. I think it really is dependent on the content. Okay, if people are interested and they're watching it, then that's a great sign.
SPEAKER_02Is there any things like in the first three seconds there has to be something dramatic to get them to watch the remaining 12 seconds?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, like a visual hook is is definitely beneficial. I think that um when I'm working with a client, I always try and get them. If it's someone talking about something, I always try to get them to kind of lead with the value or lead with a joke or lead something, particularly like if it's a person doing something with their personality.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What I I mean, it's harder because I, you know, I'm an external person. It's much trickier if you're trying to do it yourself. But like usually when I take a heap of content, I end up with just a couple of funny sound bites or little bits. And they're usually just candid moments of people saying something silly or laughing. And I love to just grab one of those and chuck it at the front because it straight away just like grabs people's attention, makes it seem really fun and engaging. Um, so yeah, ideally, in an ideal world, a hook would be great.
SPEAKER_02So I'm talking way more about social media in my personal life than I thought I would in this, but what what it's just an example that I'd love to run past you, right? So on my personal Instagram, I'm really bad at it. Like so bad at it. And what I've noticed is when I if I post anything about business or my kids, it'll get like heaps of likes and heaps of engagement. Um, if I post anything about my motorbike, it's fucking crickets, right? But something I noticed lately is this isn't me just trying to learn how to get it. That's your followers to border. So, but what I find is that like um the the other weekend I went for this massive ride, right? And so I took heaps of photos and I was like, I don't care if no one cares about this content, it's authentic to me. So I'm gonna post it, right? And so what was different though on this occasion, I didn't even mean to do this. I chucked the photos into the reel. Um, but instead of just being a solid image, it was actually like there was a bit of movement in it, whatever they call that, like the live bit. Yeah, yeah. And it actually got like way more likes. I'm talking like instead of like six, I got ten.
SPEAKER_03That that's your we're open post. Motorbike is the hay with uh a restaurant post.
SPEAKER_02Tell me that. But how do I okay, but then maybe this is a good hypothetical because if that is so on mission for me, yeah. Isn't that an example of like I should be posting about it? Maybe okay, but you're right, I'm not posting the right stuff. You're not, and you're not, yeah. I should be talking about the meditative aspect of it or storytelling element behind the lookout, anyone who follows me. Sick new, I don't know, oil tank or whatever you know but that's not gonna that'll be like we're open because it's more just shit that people don't care about. But if it's like this is a really spiritual thing to do that will help with your mental health, yeah. All right, I'm gonna start a new Instagram just about motorbikes. Um, all right, so you covered reels, text over images, how often to post. I think you talked about what's a CTA?
SPEAKER_01Call to action.
SPEAKER_02Ah, cool.
SPEAKER_01So I think that's uh one simple thing that people do miss out on a lot is a call to action. You're probably not gonna convert if people don't know the purpose of the post and how they can do what you're asking them to do. So, like a simple call to action would be book via the link in bio. You know, if you use DMs, you could DM to book a table.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, something that has is clear, has some type of urgency sometimes, you know, like if spots are limited, timeliness is always like a good way to, you know, encourage people to act.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, clear CTAs in a caption.
SPEAKER_00Cool.
SPEAKER_01Um, sometimes on on the post if it's if it's necessary, but yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02I've got a couple more um that I'm really interested about is replying to comments. That's obvious, right? Like if someone fucking says something to you, acknowledge it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, is there anything more I need to do than that other than can I just someone says something and I just give them an emoji back, or I should make it a bit more well thought out, or yeah, I think like social media is social.
Tactics: Geotags, Hashtags, UGC, Collabs
SPEAKER_01And I think more than ever before, people are people care about the community aspect. And um, social media is a great way to for you to show up and build relationships and build community, and that's how you build loyalty and how you build trust and how people want to come back is when they feel like they're part of your family. So, and it's like root uh reviews on Google reviews, you know, like you wouldn't mean a Google review just completely ignored, hopefully, ideally in the ideal world. So, yeah, I think always reply to comments, reply to DMs if you can, you know. A lot of the time people now use social media for everything. You'd be surprised how many people will not open DMs and then you'll go in there. And people are trying to book tables, people are trying to change reservations, but people aren't calling anymore. So I would definitely be prioritizing checking DMs, or you'd be missing some important info. And then if you have the resources to, I think engaging with other people and other accounts and other restaurants and being seen showing up in their comments, congratulating people, resharing your community's things. I think that's another really important piece.
SPEAKER_02Okay, then what about if I am liking other people's posts and commenting on their posts, is that going to get me more followers?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's hard to say yes or no. I think that there would be no way to track that. You know, I don't think I would use that as a strategy to try and boost your own engagement. I think it's more part of that slow burn piece of the puzzle where the more people see you engaging, the more people will engage with you, and the more that over time will build those engagement metrics, but also trust, loyalty, and community.
SPEAKER_02What about mining, like going through and just like following heaps of people, hoping that they'll follow me back?
SPEAKER_03That was like a strategy. I just 10 years ago of like, yeah, I remember starting, I felt like at the beginning of time when social media was happening. That's what we did. That's what you do.
SPEAKER_01You go back and unfollow everyone because you always wanted your follower count to be higher than who you have about it.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, I've got one more for you. Paid posts. What do I need to know about this?
SPEAKER_01I think it's hard again because you know, like resource depends on the resources, depends on the knowledge of the people that you're working with. Um, I think, yeah, paid posts are good, but I think nail organic first. It's most it's also important because it will let you know what will perform well if you do paid posts. Um, I think paid posts are good only when they are specific and they have a purpose. So you have an event, a steak night, you're trying to spill, you know, fill a um specific hole in your bookings throughout the week. There has to be a clear purpose. Um, and I think boost what already works well. So if you have organic content that's already performing well about something, that's a good sign to be like, okay, we know this is good, people want to see this, uh, amplify that. You have kind of two options, whether you want to boost things through Instagram or if you want to go um through like meta ads and to build it out like that. I think that if you if it's just you and you're just starting out, like just stick with boosting things on Instagram. It's much more protected, you know. Like if you don't know what you're doing in meta, I mean, meta is crazy and always changing and just so confusing. So it's really easy to kind of stuff up. Um, so I would say start with just boosting through Instagram. You don't need a big budget.$10 or$20 a day is probably enough. I'd probably run an ad for like seven to ten days before what the um your event. So if you have a steak night on the next Wednesday, seven to ten days out, ten to twenty dollars a day, boost something that works well organically and make sure it's really locally targeted. There's no point targeting people who like steak, you know, in Queensland. So make sure that you bring that targeting in really tight.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. All right, I'm gonna like we're really close to time, so I'm gonna bring this home. Um, I feel like that was a very, very good overview. Like there was lots to go into there. Um, I think just the the bits that I would just say to recap, um, I'll probably say two things, right? Number one, that idea around awareness, behavior, conversion is if there's only three words you take from this, just take those and have a crack. Um, but those ideas around, you know, don't be too romantic about what you want this to do. Just see it as a tool and leverage it using those three terms, and then take all the tips you can, the practical advice from everything that you've put in here. Um, I just think social media is just such a massive topic, you know, and like you said, right, it's changing all the time. So I feel like we need to probably put, you know, a bookmark in every season to sort of revisit this stuff. So yeah, hopefully uh you've enjoyed being interviewed and you'll come back again.
SPEAKER_03There's so much more to talk about. And I think the more that the uh operators in in restaurants understand behind how how much effort goes into creating this this stuff, the better. I think it it can often be seen as like let's give it to a waiter who's disinterested and make it their job to do with the expectation that we're gonna come out with something really beautiful and shiny. It's like I think the more we can chat about it, um the better. And the more like little tips we can give to operators who don't have the resources budget. Um, you know, that's something I'd love to keep thinking about.
Reels, Hooks, Captions, Carousels
SPEAKER_02Yeah, couldn't agree more. Well, hey, appreciate you guys. Thanks for spending the time today. Thanks. Awesome. Thanks for tuning in, guys. That was really, really fun. It was a great conversation. Uh, we're gonna keep this up. So at the end of the day, like I said, there's always gonna be stuff to talk about when it comes to social media and content. It's a really hot topic. There's always gonna be layers. So we're gonna earmark a segment of each season to be able to talk about this stuff. Um, we're probably gonna have a bunch of different guests on, a bunch of different people that can share their own insights as well. So, once again, we want to hear from you on this. If you've got any tips, if you've got anything that you think could work really well and you think people need to know about it, get in touch with us. It's hello at packs.melbourne. Hope to hear from you soon, and we'll see you on the next episode. Bye.