Go Pluck Yourself: The Actor’s Pursuit
Go Pluck Yourself! Because the Hollywood cavalry is not on its way to pluck you from obscurity like the proverbial claws of a claw machine. Only you are responsible for your little dent in this industry. No one is coming to pluck you out of the crowd — You have to pluck yourself.
Join actor Chris Gun as he chats to his creative pals about life as an actor navigating this wonderful industry.
These are the conversations that actors and filmmakers have between takes, between shoot dates, whilst waiting for their next gig. An insight into what life is really like for a creative on their way “up”.
This is Go Pluck Yourself - The Actor’s Pursuit
Presented by Chris Gun
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Go Pluck Yourself: The Actor’s Pursuit
Ep 4: Claiming Your Creative Identity with Poppy Mee
🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
▶️ Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@gopluckyourselfpod
❤️ Support the show: patreon.com/gopluckyourselfpod
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My IMDb: https://m.imdb.com/name/nm8690472/
Follow Poppy Mee on Instagram: @poppy_mee_
Check out her IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm11005770/
This week on the show, I chat with the wonderful Poppy Mee! Actor, theatre maker, writer and clown.
Fresh off the Adelaide Cabaret Festival, Poppy talks about how cabaret strips away the rules and gives performers space to actually bloom. It’s raw, messy, and all about real connection with an audience, the kind of honesty actors are usually told to hide.
We dive into her solo show Psychopomp, born from an existential spiral and turned into something funny, profound, and beautifully interactive. It’s about death, legacy, and asking yourself: what story will you tell the boatman?
At the core of our chat is a moment every actor will relate to. Realising “if I don’t call myself an actor, no one else will.” We talk about that shift from waiting to be picked to finally owning your identity as an artist.
You’re gonna get a lot out of this one.
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🎵 Theme music by Nick Gun: soundcloud.com/nickgun
My name's Poppy Mee and you should go pluck yourself.
Speaker 2:We did it, guys. I made it to the shoot with somewhat of a voice. It was touch and go for a minute there, but I did the shoot. It was awesome. Welcome to Go. Pluck Yourself the Actor's Pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn.
Speaker 2:Before we get into today's episode with the wonderful Poppy Mee, I'm going to ask you all to do one thing today to really help the show. If you're watching on YouTube or listening on whatever podcast platform you prefer, please do us a favor and hit that follow button. I am so grateful for the response that this show has had so early in its life and I know that I bark a million things at you each episode. You know subscribe, share, sign up to the patreon, blah, blah, blah. But at this early stage of the podcast, hitting that subscribe button really gives the algorithm a lovely little boost and helps to find its audience. So please hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening or watching.
Speaker 2:So I have just come back from shooting the most beautiful scene in the most amazing film that I'm so grateful to have been a part of, and I can't say what it is because of NDAs and all that. But the director is a really old friend of mine and now they're a massive superstar and I'm so impressed and unsurprised by their success because they are endlessly talented and they absolutely deserve every bit of success that comes their way. I'm buzzing, and I'm always buzzing after a shoot. I'm reminded why I love this so much. Nothing brings me more joy than to do this work and to play and to be creative with old friends and now heroes of mine. I'm grateful, man, I'm really grateful. But, holy heck, man, it nearly didn't happen. So since recording my podcast last week so that was on Tuesday the next day, I completely lost my voice, like it was gone. I could not make a squeak. So I lost my voice on Wednesday and I was meant to be shooting on Friday and by the time Friday came around, I literally had no voice. But by the grace of the film gods, they moved the shoot to Tuesday this week, which is today. So I ran to the doctor and I said, hey, man, I need to get my voice back, and he gave me this steroid anti-inflammatory and still, by Saturday, I still did not have a voice and I was freaking out. I messaged my agent and I was like dude, I don't know if I can do this film. I think I'm gonna have to pull the pin and luckily on Sunday morning I could talk. I could just talk and by Monday I was like I can actually carry a conversation now and my voice might be husky and I and I might have pneumonia, but I can speak and I did the scene and it worked and it was great and I could do the movie and I'm so grateful and I'm really excited to share this episode today with you guys.
Speaker 2:My guest today is a very good friend of mine, poppy Mee. Poppy is an actor, she's a theater maker, she's a writer, she is a clown I mean, she does it all. She's professionally trained and she is oh so talented. I met Poppy at an acting workshop and I don't know if you guys are seeing a pattern here, but most of my friends on this show so far I've met at acting workshops. So if you need one more reason to sign up to a reputable workshop, go and do it. Go spend a weekend with other actors, analyzing scripts, watching each other's work. I guarantee you're going to find your community. You're going to make friends.
Speaker 2:Poppy recently completed a run of her own solo show that she wrote Psycho Pomp, which we talk about in this episode. I saw it twice at the Adelaide Fringe. It was fantastic. She also brings up something really interesting in this conversation the idea of asking for permission, like permission to act or to call yourself an actor, which sparked some really interesting views from both of us. She actually asked a lot of questions. I know that I'm the host of this podcast, but she seemed to come in with a bunch of questions, which is really sweet. What else would we do?
Speaker 2:Oh, we don't talk about this in the chat, but Poppy and I recently recorded a nice little scene, just for the hell of it. You know, she needed something for a show reel and she found a script, she found a crew, she found a director and she just made it happen and it looks great. But yeah, it's just sort of a great lesson in showing initiative if you need footage, stop waiting for people to come to you. Just go out, find a crew, find someone to help help shoot something and go shoot a scene. So, yes, that's enough preamble. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please subscribe, please follow, share this episode, do all the things. Poppy is a wonderful actor. Please check her out on socials. I'll put all the relevant links to her like IMDB and all that stuff in the show notes. Please check it out Now. Please enjoy my most excellent chat with the most excellent Poppy Mee.
Speaker 1:I had so many good questions and then I asked them all in the kitchen.
Speaker 2:But I haven't answered them. Oh yeah, you don't have to ask the questions.
Speaker 1:Oh, I need information. This has got to be worth my while.
Speaker 2:We'll get there. Okay, just trust it, trust me. So how's Poppy's day been?
Speaker 1:Well, the day started at midnight last night, which was about when closing night of Cabaret Festival was wrapping up. It was very beautiful Virginia Gay passing the torch to Reuben Kaye as the new artistic director, which is amazing, Nice, but yeah. So there was this big party, beautiful showcase of the season, and then dancing and drinking and partying and got home at about six. So that was my day.
Speaker 2:That's a big night. Yeah, sounds fun, though, oh my.
Speaker 1:God, it was beautiful.
Speaker 2:Where was it all held?
Speaker 1:It was all at the Festival Centre. Beauty and the Beast was on in the main theatre, which is very strange, did they mind? Could they hear you in there? No, but I tell you what I did do? I fucked up on opening night. I fucked up on opening night. I went there thinking the gala was at the festival center and then I rocked up and there's a bunch of kids and I was like, oh no, oh no, me and my like cabaret outfit with like zhuzhed up hair, red lips, like titties, all out everywhere.
Speaker 1:it's cabaret, you have to yeah and then I had to hightail it to the majesty's yeah but yeah, it was so cool.
Speaker 1:The Cabaret Festival is developing a really strong voice as one of Adelaide's major arts festivals. A lot of oxygen is taken up with Fringe and Adelaide Festival but Cabaret Festival is great because it's such an incubator for artists and it's such an opportunity to network, network and, you know, even doing like a five-minute spot in someone's show can really like boost someone's career, can get you noticed, can get you in rooms with people that you wouldn't normally get in rooms with.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Virginia said something so gorgeous. She said at the gala that cabaret is a place where you find an artist's unique quality like their little kernel, what makes them special, and cabaret is the most effective art form in bringing that to the fore and I was that's interesting. Why do you think that is? It's a very vulnerable art form and it's incredibly present and it's incredibly. It's a lot similar to clowning in that way, in that it relies so heavily on the audience and the performer's connection with the audience.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It can only be live.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And because of that, like it can be messy and kind of seem off the rails and be very raw at times and go wrong. But I was there with some people that I went to drama school with and it was like huh interesting that in all of our training the conversation was always about stripping back, taking away things, shedding things, and I think it's kind of the same process that happens, because eventually you get to that sort of kernel of someone's sort of their essential artistry. But it seemed like such a more positive take on that process of, rather than shedding, it's like growing and blooming and blossoming.
Speaker 1:And then you know, things that you don't need fall away anyway, but you don't have to. There was so much emphasis on losing what doesn't serve you, rather than digging deep and finding, like a well of truth.
Speaker 2:What makes you you right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really nice and Cabaret does that yeah.
Speaker 1:Very beautifully and I think it's because it's very immediate.
Speaker 2:It's very in the room and there's so much of the real you that's present in the performance or the character Can't hide.
Speaker 1:A lot of times you're not playing a character. Well, that's it. That's what I was going to say it is just you.
Speaker 2:I don't know much about how Cabaret works in terms of like. A lot of it its show tunes yeah yeah, but it's you performing and you telling the telling stories through throughout the music, right, yeah, yeah, which is such a different angle to like character acting, yeah scripted theater yeah where you are things like that you are relying so heavily on the truth of who you are and you.
Speaker 1:It forces you to stand on that and to trust that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's how you build the connection with the audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah because they can smell it too. You can smell when someone's being genuine with you, just like you can smell when someone is, when it's coming from a place of vanity rather than connection. Yeah, yeah, and everyone was really hot and sexy, so that's great. That's great. Some stunning voices.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Some stunning local talent. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool to look at it from the perspective of, like a theatre maker.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a very different kind of category of performance but there's a lot to be said for like feeding in elements of that cabaret quality of being present with an audience and reactive, but the show that you've just done, yep.
Speaker 2:Psycho Pomp.
Speaker 1:Psycho Pomp.
Speaker 2:That's going to sound great. It was a different experience because the audience was so important in that performance Yep, at least when I was there. It's so interactive and as soon as you walk in the room before the show's even started. We're participating.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And we don't know what's coming, because you're giving us a prop. What do you call them? Offerings, offerings, and we don't know what that means yet you know. So as soon as you walk in and you sit down, you're already like thinking what am I going to be doing with this?
Speaker 1:What did you have? You had an apple.
Speaker 2:I think I had an apple.
Speaker 1:Yeah for a brave soul.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well, you know your show well I did it.
Speaker 1:The apple was always for a brave soul. No, you shouldn't give it away, or the cucumber was always for a brave soul, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:An extra brave soul. I'm not that, but yeah, it felt very clowny. And again, this is not my. I mean, I grew up clowning, but it's not my forte. I don't really, I don't understand what it all is, you know, it's really a different like what we would consider clowning with children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's quite different from the sort of performance style of clowning. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how to juggle.
Speaker 2:See, that was my thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We were juggling in, unicycling, oh man, and doing magic.
Speaker 1:I really wish I did circuits. Did you do circuits?
Speaker 2:I did it for a little bit. My dad taught me everything Right, Because he this sums up my dad.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think he's shown me photos of him at like Sterling Pageant, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:He still does the pageant. Amazing, he's the best. There's a video of me, at two years old, sitting on the bed with dad and he's teaching me to juggle and I'm just like holding the juggling bowls, just doing this and yeah, that's. I guess that's where it all started. You know the performance stuff.
Speaker 1:But there's like, even without juggling if you took that away and there was still that, because what he's doing, what I would imagine he was doing with you, was like talking to you about it and like getting excited when you were getting excited and being curious about what you're curious about. That is very much like I am a very baby clown. I'm not like. I know people who you know spent two years at Goliad and stuff like that. I only went for five weeks, so I'm not like an expert by any means. But what I love about it and what I found very liberating after going through like quite a strict sort of style of training, was just following impulses and following those impulses with an audience yeah and that thing of like.
Speaker 1:You're allowed to go off script if you do something and the audience laughs like notice it yeah, and do it again yeah like. That's exactly what you do with a baby right, yeah, yeah. Like, how many times can you play peek-a-boo, because the child's never going to get sick of it. You only stop doing the thing that is making them laugh when they stop laughing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you find something else to make them laugh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so interesting, so you wrote Psycho Pomp yes.
Speaker 1:And like where, like where did the genesis of all this begin? Depression, okay, living in Melbourne, spending a winter in Coburg, yeah, post-covid, there was this like burst of sort of activity that hadn't really happened since I'd finished drama school, yeah, and I'd just come back from London and I sort of had whiplash from COVID, sort of turning my life upside down.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What I really wanted to do was go back to London but, I, couldn't. So instead I moved to Melbourne Right, ostensibly to start a Masters of Screenwriting because I had, throughout 2021, written my first solo show Slight Exaggeration which was kind of about my experiences in London. You know how everyone's first solo show is like a shitty autobiographical, like confessional. Here's my trauma. Yeah, yeah, it was so bad but it was fun. No, you've got to. You have to do the first one You've got to do them you have to do.
Speaker 1:You have to like what we did at the start Get it out of your system when we just talked shit for 10 minutes. Yeah, Get it out of your system when we just talk shit for 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to do that. Yeah, I haven't done mine yet I haven't written anything. But, that being said, I'm like I should write a film about alcoholism and then that'll be done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You'll do it, and then you'll be like okay.
Speaker 2:I've done that. Now. Yeah, I the geographical thing, anyway.
Speaker 1:So I had written a bunch in that year, yeah, and I was like I want to move into screen stuff I don't know how, there's not really a whole bunch of it in Adelaide. So I applied and got into the Masters of Screenwriting at VCA Nice and I hated it. Oh, I hated it. I left after a semester and then I was just in Melbourne. Yeah, I hated it. I left after a semester and then I was just in Melbourne and I was working shitty retail jobs and not pursuing acting.
Speaker 1:Covid had really sort of thrown me and I really had to build myself back into what I thought my life was going to, what path I thought I was on, got super depressed and got super existential. I was about to turn it was like late 20s, I was about to turn 30 and I had this like time is running out. Yeah, what the fuck am I doing? But I'm stuck here and I'm, you know, working a crap job to pay rent in my crap share house, not pursuing what I love. Because the reason I got into acting was to because I found it like a place where I could connect with other people. Yeah, youth theatre.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm seeing a common thread from my guests Really, and me the connection with like communities, yes.
Speaker 1:Especially if you didn't you know, really fuck with school or you maybe were in the wrong school.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I went to a very academic school and they didn't give a fuck about drama or even writing to a certain extent.
Speaker 3:But like anything creative, no, I'm not really kidding.
Speaker 1:It was like, okay, you're going to get into Adelaide Uni and go and do engineering Great Back to Melbourne. Yeah, melbourne Got depressed. Yeah, got Adelaide Uni and go and do engineering Great Back to Melbourne. Yeah, melbourne Got depressed. Yeah, got really depressed. Didn't know what to do. What year was this? That was 2023 by that stage. Okay, and I had made, I had done like this little show that was like a devised Melbourne fringe fun little project and that was like all that was keeping me afloat. Yeah, and someone had suggested a friend had just got back from Goliad, right, and they had gotten a lot out of it and I was like I need to find out if I still love acting.
Speaker 1:I haven't really done it for a good long while and Goliad I wasn't good at, but the experience just going, just for anyone that's listening that doesn't know what, oh sure, uh, Ecole Philippe Goulier is a very famous, very prestigious uh specialty clowning performance school, um, in a little town called Etampes, which is an hour south of Paris, and it taught. It's named after Philippe Goulier, who is now. He doesn't teach anymore, he's very old, but your classic French like stereotypical, where the beret has red round glasses and a beard and crazy wild like wiry hair and he sits with his drum and if he does not love you he bangs the drum and he tells you to get the fuck off the stage.
Speaker 1:Wow, it's great terrible french accent, but he, like his thing is. Uh, he makes up very creative insults yeah or like threatens you cool, violence, cool.
Speaker 1:It's hilarious because, like for me, his thing was my name. It was like where are you from Australia? Yeah, what is your name? Poppy, ridiculous name. This is the name you would give to a dog. Oh, that's amazing. Like someone would be up there trying their best on some sort of improv thing. He would bang his drum and go do we love her or do we think she should never have children?
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:And there's like a whole, because he'd been teaching for decades and decades and decades. So there's like Facebook groups of people's like best Goliath insults.
Speaker 2:I see, I see Okay.
Speaker 1:And people go at various points in their lives and careers for various different reasons. Some people who are there aren't even actors.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They just want this experience, they just want to be insulted. Yeah, and what it does do is you go. You know, he tells you that your shit, get off the stage and then get back on the stage. Yeah, okay, because what he's trying to get you to do essentially is to, in the nicest possible way, like kind of tell him to go fuck himself and be like no, this is my stage right I see, this is my room, this is my audience yeah they love me yeah I love them.
Speaker 1:Uh, and if you can do that with like an old french man screaming at you, then you no audience is going to be harder than that yeah so if you can do that and you love it and you want to get back on stage when he tells you to fuck off, it's a very I mean, it's not for everyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like it might be illegal somewhere.
Speaker 1:If you've got anything, you know it's very intense. And if you've got, like if you're working through some mental health stuff or something like that, I wouldn't recommend it. Yeah, like if you're working through some mental health stuff or something like that, I wouldn't recommend it. Yeah, but for me it was sort of a big shot in the arm of like, do you give a fuck about this or not? And that was when I came up with the idea for Psycho Pump. I'd heard the word. I write a lot of my shows based on the title.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a great, it's such a good word, it's such a Psycho Pump.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you want? Etymology, do you want?
Speaker 2:word origins.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So psychopomp comes from ancient Greek Psyche soul, pompos conductor or to conduct, as in like pomp and ceremony, or pomp and circumstance.
Speaker 1:So yeah a soul conductor, conductor of souls and psychopomps exist in all mythologies, all religions, all folklore. They are the being, whether it be like a demigod or some sort of like weird creature, or like Charon the boatman, the person who, like ferries people over the River Styx. Classic example I was talking to someone at Goliad who was Chinese and they said, ah, ours is Meng Po. Meng Po is an old woman who you cross over a bridge with. There's always some sort of threshold when you're crossing from life to death or through death into whatever. Whatever. Meng Po gives you like a tea to drink or something, and it's the tea of forgetting. I think it's tea. It might be soup, right, some sort of liquid.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that you can move on into your next life. So you forget your old life can move on into your next life. So you forget your old life, you move on into your next life and I was fascinated with this, and I was fascinated with like, what that figure represents if you were to come at it from the perception of like. Okay, so that's a human invention, because we need someone there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We need someone there to sort of witness our crossing. What's that character? Yeah, okay, and what would they think of humans? And what would they think of what they discover about humans at this incredibly crucial point. And I was really existential and like thinking about death and shit.
Speaker 2:What I love about your show is it makes you reflect very heavily on your legacy. You know, because the question is and this is a spoiler, but the question is, what are you going to tell?
Speaker 1:the boatman. What's your story going to be? What's?
Speaker 2:your story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I left that show feeling like holy shit, yeah, it's that existential, like what am I doing? What is my story going to be?
Speaker 3:Yeah it was great and what's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's important.
Speaker 1:Because that was something that I reflected on of like we're in an industry that's very like there are very clear markers of success.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How much value are you setting on those of like getting roles, getting work, winning awards?
Speaker 3:stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Versus the experience of doing what you're doing. Yeah, the experience of being in a room with other people telling stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's for us. Yeah, you know that's something that we can relate to because that's the industry we're in.
Speaker 1:But I hope people that saw that show whatever they're Most people came out of it pretty like, sort of like, with some motivation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's what I felt.
Speaker 1:I got to you know chase experiences that are going to be a good story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it kind of motivates you to fill your life with something beautiful, beautiful things, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's what art's meant to do, right, that's. The thing is that that's what I needed. Yeah, that's what art's meant to do, right, that's the thing is that that's what I needed. Yeah, and I wanted to investigate it in terms of clowning, because I tell you what I hate TED Talk theatre. I want to see the art. Yeah, okay, I understand that you've got this thing that you want to talk about Like for me, death, existential, dread time, time passing, opportunities lost. You can't get up on stage and say that.
Speaker 2:No, you can't say guys, make sure you fill your life with beauty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like why is it theatre then?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Make it into art. Yeah, be nice to your audience. Yeah, make it into art. Yeah, be nice to your audience. Yeah, it's entertainment. Yeah, let them.
Speaker 2:Take out of it what they need. To take out of it, they'll get there. Yeah, that's what Phoebe.
Speaker 1:Waller-Bridge said something about that is like you reel them in and then, when they realise what you're talking about, it's like a sucker punch, which is great.
Speaker 3:It's very satisfying for an audience to be like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But if you go in being like this is about how much I'm scared of dying, at least make it funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you did it beautifully. Thank you, and you got a. I saw a five-star review.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my God, that was wild, I mean, I would have given it a five stars if I had that platform, you didn't have a media pass, did you?
Speaker 2:I didn't, I'm no one. Where did you just take it?
Speaker 1:So I took it over to Pride Fest at Qtopia Sydney. Qtopia is a really cool. It used to be the old Darlinghurst police station and the first Pride march that happened in Sydney. The people that got arrested were taken to the Darlinghurst police station and now it is like a museum slash art gallery of like the queer history of Sydney, and at the front of it is an old electricity substation that they've made into a theatre. Amazing, yeah, and yeah, I had no audiences. I don't know anyone in Sydney oh, so it was quiet.
Speaker 2:Oh oh, that's rough. Yeah, it was bad. Like how many people?
Speaker 1:uh, so I had booked three shows. We consolidated into two shows okay um and like moved some people's tickets around, but the first night was seven people. The second night was about 10, a good portion of which were the volunteers from the venue. But someone in those 17 people was an answer reviewer and they gave me five stars.
Speaker 2:Well, jokes on everyone that didn't go.
Speaker 1:Jokes on everyone that didn't go Apparently everyone that didn't go. Yeah, apparently sydney is very sydney. Audiences are very weather-based because they have such nice weather. Yeah, if it's not nice weather they're like well, why would I go out?
Speaker 2:I'm not going to sit in a yeah indoor theater if it's raining yeah, melbourne people, on the other hand, melbourne they're used to it are like nothing.
Speaker 1:Stop me, not like the devil himself.
Speaker 2:So writing your own material is it's a choice. It's very brave.
Speaker 1:It was out of necessity, man.
Speaker 2:That's a good reason to do it. That is a good reason you actually you had something to get out, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but also, I wasn't getting any acting work. I was like.
Speaker 3:So what did you do about it?
Speaker 2:You made something.
Speaker 1:That was kind of how I was. A lot of my formative training was in like devising theatre. Okay.
Speaker 2:So how was that feeling of like putting something so personal out there in the world and hoping people will rock up and understand it and get the right message from it? Oh, good question. And the fear I mean even the experience of performing it in Sydney for two nights to a small audience, I think I what is that for you Like? What does that feel like for you?
Speaker 1:I think over the course of the shows that I've done so. I've done two solo shows now and I did. I've done three seasons of Psychopomp now. I think especially this last go round I really wanted to push myself to not spoon feed the audience because the temptation is you want to control their reactions because, you want your message to be clear, yeah, but to be able to trust that I can do less, I can use less words. I don't need to explain myself, basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:People will understand, which was like a test of, like putting faith in your own work. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah, I think like it. For me, at least, it was a marker of how I've developed as a writer.
Speaker 2:How do you deal with people like have a tendency to critique?
Speaker 1:Critics often do yeah, yeah, but like non-critics are critical too, you know yeah. I mean that Usually not to your face, which is fine, which is?
Speaker 2:good, that's fine, they can keep it to themselves. But, like, the thing I find difficult is when people give me feedback and I'm like I didn't, it was what it was, I made it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can see the flaws in it myself. I could probably. I can learn from my own mistakes, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, retrospectively. You see it from inside it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there are certain people that I trust for feedback directors, other actors that I trust as feedback directors, other actors that I trust as like friends or peers. Am I off?
Speaker 1:track here.
Speaker 2:But when people give you feedback and you're like cool man, I didn't ask for that and it was what it was for you. I mean, the risk of putting something out there that you've made is so high in terms of damage to yourself. You know, and you're writing your own stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very brave.
Speaker 1:Especially from like something from a personal experience. My experience has usually been people being like I can't fucking do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even if what I've made was shit making something, no one can really do that. Yeah, Even if what I've made was shit making something no one can really touch. That that's how I feel about it. I'm not. I'll hear, like you know, sometimes someone will comment something mean and I'll be like fuck you. But if the person who's offering you critique or criticism is speaking the same language as you are, artistically, creatively, If they're in the world and they understand what you're trying to get to, yeah, they actually are trying to be constructive.
Speaker 2:I love notes, I love notes, I love notes. But also those people tend to have a tact in that they gauge with you whether you're open for notes. Some people come at you and go you should have done this and you're like fucking thanks, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't give a fuck what anyone says who's not like my.
Speaker 2:Do you want to go there, or what is it?
Speaker 1:My dad.
Speaker 2:Okay, we don't have to keep this in Will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, well, you know maybe, but like you know how there's always that thing of like you're your own worst critic.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My dad's approval really means a lot to me because he is so and he will not spare feelings. And when I first did Psycho Pump, I remember him. He drove me home. He picked me up from the theatre and drove me home, having seen the show, yeah, and he was looking at me like you really did something that's, you know, really impressive and stuff, and I was like what, I didn't know how to take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because usually he'll be like okay, ah, okay, like he will.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It will often be some sort of slightly scathing critique that will make me cry, and he's not, you know, in the arts. He's just my dad and we're cursed with wanting our parents' approval. I guess, yeah, but I mean when my family come to a?
Speaker 2:show. Yeah, those are the people. I'm like guys was it good? They'll always say, yeah, man, yeah, we're so proud of you.
Speaker 1:And I'm like I don't even want you to tell me if it wasn't good I just I think my dad I think the point I'm trying to make is my dad is the one person who has no, is not yeah a writer is not a. He's like a well-read dude but, he's not in the creative industry but will still give me like the dressing down of my life, and I had some formative directors who would say things like just act better Helpful.
Speaker 2:That's helpful, that's so helpful.
Speaker 1:Really constructive.
Speaker 2:If only you'd known to act better before I was like oh yeah, no, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you're, you know 16, 17,.
Speaker 2:You're like okay, I do need to act better. I should have thought of that before.
Speaker 3:Do you know how I can act better? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had some early directors, like at youth theatre and stuff, who did not mince their words. Yeah, you learn to know when to take things with a grain of salt.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You learn when someone's communication style is just dog shit. Yeah yeah, but they are actually trying to help you, even if they're bad at trying to help you. But it does also mean when you find someone who you can connect with in a professional context, who you trust and who you want to critique your work, and who you want to because they're, because you know that they're, they see what you're trying to do and they want to help you, try to get there yeah even if it's things that maybe are hard to hear yeah but important to hear but it's.
Speaker 2:It's about building trust with someone that you actually respect, and they respect you back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's a relationship.
Speaker 2:And you're both trying to, you both have the same goal.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember I was listening to Emma Freeman, who's like my favourite Australian. She directed Stateless, or the episode of Stateless that I was on, and she directed the Newsreader oh nice, it's a fantastic series. And she did like a Zoom in conversation thing and she was saying how she would say to Anna Torv, who's like a fucking incredible actor, basically like well, we can't put that on the telly, can we? And I was like oh, Wow. I love you so much.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's brave.
Speaker 1:Because, like, it's what the actor needs to hear.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's a way of going like well, we're in this together, we're both trying to do our best jobs for ourselves and each other, and like it's also fun at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, finding a director.
Speaker 2:But also, that's what trust is. Yes, yeah, because you know that that director's going to be honest with you and tell you if it's dog shit. Yeah, and I would want to know if it's dog shit Exactly, you know.
Speaker 1:What if your dog shit? No one tells you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Have you ever had that experience where you just need that validation at the start? Yes, because I did a film a couple of years ago, with or Without you, and it was the first big film I'd done in a while and like quite a bold character, and the director hadn't seen my version of that character before. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:For the audience at home.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you want to describe your casting process?
Speaker 2:I didn't even audition for it, I was just casting it and that's like this where auditions can also be important because it gives the actor an opportunity to get the note, to know the character yeah, and and to run it by the director and be like, okay, is this the angle, is this the guy? Yeah, and so the director hadn't seen that. And she was great though, because I she came into the trailer and like had a chat to me before. And she was great though, because I she came into the trailer and like had a chat to me before and she's just like I trust what you're going to do and I'm like, all right, well, we'll see it on the day, I guess. And we had a chat about the character and like made sure we were. You know we're on the same page, but you know, physically she hadn't seen any of it.
Speaker 2:And I went onto that set. Physically she hadn't seen any of it. And I went onto that set, no one had seen Benny except me and my sister-in-law who read lines with me. But I came onto that set and I've got 50 crew there and the director who hasn't seen my version yet, and I was like, well, fucking, here we go, like I did a couple of takes and Melina, who was acting opposite me she's so sweet, she could tell that I was looking around looking for Kelly and being like I just need to know is this?
Speaker 3:it yeah.
Speaker 2:Then I'm good, yeah. And Melina, just she whispers to me, she's like do you need validation?
Speaker 3:I was like yeah, I do I need I, just just once. Yeah.
Speaker 2:She's like it's really good.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then Kelly. I think Kelly clocked on and she came up to me. She's like that's Benny.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, thank you, and then we were free and it doesn't need to be like blowing smoke up your arse.
Speaker 1:No, you just need to know whether or not you're on the right track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We had a thing in drama school, but also like when I was younger, that like, well, no notes is good notes. So, if you don't get any notes, then whatever you're doing is like on the right track.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think at a certain point you need to develop your sort of um spidey sense yeah before you can actually know what you're doing consciously yeah, yeah even as something as simple as like the, the physicality that you're working with is yeah is working well. I wouldn't even call it validation. That's direction. Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah sure. I mean yeah, that's what direction is.
Speaker 2:Am.
Speaker 1:I on the right track, yes or no?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yeah, and what about this is working. Yeah, yeah, it's not the blowing smoke up your ass. I don't need to be told I'm good. Yeah, but I need to be.
Speaker 1:That this is working yeah.
Speaker 2:If it's working or am I fucking way off? Yes, yeah, but then get that conversation going. So I know that we trust each other and that we are actually communicating and you would tell me if I was off. Yes, and the fact that you're not saying anything is good news. But that was a big learning moment for me, because up until that point, I hadn't experienced really professional directors, because I'd done a lot of amateur theatre or student films or a day play a role on a bigger film, but it wasn't about me at all, you know.
Speaker 1:So I didn't have the time to have that one-on-one. Yeah, you don't really get the opportunity to work with the director.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but the fact that Kelly left us alone and trusted us and I took that as like, why isn't she telling me what to do? But you know, obviously, for me what I got out of that film was they don't need to hold my hand, you know, and they trust me and they know because I'm a professional actor. I've done all the work and whatever I bring to it they are happy with and they would tell me if we need to shift. Yeah, you know, and they trust your capacity to shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, if need be. Yeah yeah, I wanted to talk to you about this, something that I'm only starting to sort of unpick for myself is. I have always felt that I needed permission to do anything Right. Okay, to pursue acting in the first place. Yeah, to perform the kind of work that I wanted to perform, to present the way I want to present. I always felt that I needed someone to give me permission to do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And drama school was, was a thing for me. This isn't the case for everyone that goes through like a you know, three year tertiary training, but it was for me. I needed I needed to go through drama school so that I could call myself an actor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause, even though I'd been even though I'd been doing it since I was 16 years old and I knew that it was the thing that I loved. The thing that I loved, I didn't feel like I deserved to call myself an actor until second year drama school. Okay, Second year.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not even when I got in. Yeah, so Shabana is a really good example of this. From the moment I met Shabana and you, I really had this notion that you didn't have that feeling of I needed someone else to give me permission before I was allowed to let myself do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:And I don't know what it's like in your head. Did you have that or do you continue to have that? Do you have a thing of like? Someone needs to give me permission to do this.
Speaker 2:No, because it's not tangible. What you call yourself. You don't need necessarily to have a qualification in this thing to be it. When I was younger, I had acted in things and I did drama in high school and out of high school, extracurricular things and in my head once I had done something professionally as in to me, getting paid for something, and someone had trusted me to do it and I felt I had done well and I was starting to understand what it is, I thought, okay, at some point I'm going to be able to say to myself you're an actor now and no one's going to decide that for me. I just I defined it myself because I wasn't going to train, I didn't have time, I kind of I was doing other things during my 20s. I wasn't even acting for a lot of my 20s.
Speaker 1:So when did that happen, that you got your first paid gig?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean I had done paid gigs when I was early 20s. I'd done extra stuff when I was a teenager. Early 20s I done extra stuff when I was a teenager. But my first big job was a commercial Crazy K where I played this rapper that loses his license. But it was a big campaign. It was like three days work and it paid for my van.
Speaker 1:Is that one of the like retro, like no?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it was a lose your license, you're screwed campaign. But it was so much fun, man, like it was three days of me improvising. I love that. Oh, I love it, I loved it so much. The director Robin I just worked with him again like two weeks ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, was that the Melbourne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Melbourne one, the best guy. And so was like yeah, man, you know him. And he would be like, oh, because it was all improv. He would be like talk about this, just talk about it. However it comes out, just make sure you mention this.
Speaker 3:And I would be like oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Rosie hasn't talked to me in like three weeks. Man, Like I don't care though, because I've got a lineup of chicks and that. But you know, and we improv the whole thing and he cut the whole thing together in this really lovely little mockumentary about this poor kid that loses his licence and is completely tone deaf, you know, Doesn't realise how bad he is at rapping, Like it's really good.
Speaker 1:Is this on YouTube? Yeah, yeah, do you have it?
Speaker 2:It's great. Yeah, I'll show you. It's fun. It's my proudest work. Honestly, it still is Like I love it so much. But so that was like in my I was 21 when I did that and then I played music for years and then I worked in a warehouse for three years and a bank, Like I did everything but acting for a long time. But I wanted to pursue music, Like I was busking. For like three years I was playing gigs in pubs full time for like three years. That was I wanted to do that.
Speaker 1:That was like scratching the itch kind of thing. Well, that was what I wanted to be.
Speaker 2:I was like I studied film in 2010. I started busking in 2012. And then I was like this is great, I love. I mean I still play, I just don't perform I. And then I was like this is great, I mean, I still play, I just don't perform. I've got like I had some vocal issues. I'm sure it's fixable, but it's been a long time now.
Speaker 2:But when I stopped playing music, I was like what's my creative outlet? It took me years to realize that I wasn't pursuing something creative and I really needed to. But I had a bank manager like my supervisor at the bank. He was like the nicest dude. He took me into a private room in the office and he's like look, you're really good at this and you could be promoted and be on 200K a year in a few years if you wanted to. But you'd be a banker and you want to be an actor. And I was like I do want to be an actor. He's like what are you doing here? I was like I don't fucking know, man, and I quit. And he was like you can stay, we, We'll promote you, but you are creative.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You don't want to be in these walls, and I was like, yeah, dude, so I quit. I stayed another week and did nothing. It was awesome, and I took the bank's money. Yes, yeah, but anyway, what's your fucking question?
Speaker 1:Oh my God, the sense of permission. Oh okay, so then?
Speaker 2:around that time I did a play with Red Phoenix, laramie Project, with Jazz and a lot of other really great actors in Adelaide and that was a big lightbulb moment for me. I was like, oh, this is what it is, I get it and I loved it. And from then on I was like I'm doing this, I'm pursuing this and I think around. Then I was like if I don't call myself an actor, no one's going to take me seriously as an actor. And I always say that casting and producers are not looking for someone who's kind of an actor. They're looking for someone that actually has the confidence in themselves to call them an actor so that they can be a professional yeah, yeah, yeah and so it was.
Speaker 2:That's the job that you're applying for.
Speaker 2:It's kind of a fake it till you make it kind of thing, but only for me yeah only because, like if I let the imposter syndrome take over, I'd be like but you didn't study or you didn't do you, you haven't done a film in Sydney or something. It's like no, no, no, I know I can do it, I know I've made good stuff before and I know I've got more to learn and I'll never stop learning. But if I wait for some threshold where I'm like now I'm an actor, no, fuck man, I'm an actor now and I'm just going to get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm only going to get the opportunities.
Speaker 1:Nothing wrong with being a bad actor.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:As long as you're, you know, trying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've done a lot of bad acting since calling myself an actor and I'll do more bad acting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hopefully, yeah, inevitably yeah.
Speaker 2:It will happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I find that enviable I find that really enviable and I wish, at some stage in my earlier life I would love to work out the root of it. But I've had like several times in my life when I've had that sort of crisis of like, am I doing this or not? And I've gone like, well, if I don't do it, this is the fork in the road. Yeah, like a bank manager. That's happened like a couple of times because shit gets hard, covid, yeah. But yeah, I think that's really salient and I think it shows in your work. Thanks, man, I really do um and I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm saying this like as someone who's like learning to that, like the only person who needs to give permission is myself, but this is something that, like, I have to practice that yeah and like there's an element of not wanting to piss people off, for me, I think. But you learn pretty quickly that, like no one's going to get pissed off at you for that, no, they want that from you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I do. I think it shows in your work and it shows in your work ethic and your capacity to this is. This is going to sound silly, but I'm. When I say your capacity to act, what I mean is to take action. I see?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um yeah, well, and that's what the title of this podcast is.
Speaker 1:That's why you got all of this fucking gear everywhere.
Speaker 2:But I like to play with shit too. Yeah, you know this is like I've been collecting this stuff since the music days. You know that makes sense, so that's why I have a lot of it. Yeah, I mean, most of it is just music shit. It really is what you grow up with.
Speaker 1:hey, because my studio at home is like whiteboards, like all of the stationary title cards to like, write scenes up and put them up and then like, and then the self-test stuff as well. Yeah, this is why I want to work with someone else's script.
Speaker 2:Ah so you've only worked with your own scripts mainly.
Speaker 1:For the last nearly two years Psychopom has been a big undertaking, so that's taken up a lot of my time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but not regrettably.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Really amazing, you know. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Hopefully it gets me another job where someone else who's an amazing writer writes something amazing and I can say their words, because I love script analysis. Yeah, that is like I do that for fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And like researching, like playwrights and screenwriters and, yeah, analysing texts.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Big nerd.
Speaker 2:So what's stopping you from finding an opportunity to work with someone else's words? Poppy wants to make something with someone else's writing. Yeah, I do.
Speaker 1:I want to make something with someone else and like other people in the fucking room, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so lonely doing a solo show, One-person shows yeah.
Speaker 1:Even though I had for this last season. I had, like a director, a dramaturg, my friend who just came in and like chatted to, and a sound designer. But at the end of the day you're on stage. And that's where the audience is so important in this show because I don't have a scene partner. My scene partner is myself but like, yeah, that's the thing that drew me to acting and I think just by kind of necessity. Um, it became a solid pursuit.
Speaker 2:also, funding you can't afford to pay that many actors yeah especially if you're an independent artist yourself but when you do someone else's work, don't expect to get paid. No, because of that, that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but being in the room with people. It's so you get so much more done so quickly through collaboration. I think this is the thing. I talk about it too much. I need to just go and do it. Permission.
Speaker 2:Go and do it.
Speaker 1:Chris, write me a play.
Speaker 2:My first play is going to be a sub-story about alcoholism. That's my solo play.
Speaker 1:I think you should do it cabaret. I think you should incorporate the story of the busker. I think you should have like a piano and a guitar on stage. Would you do covers or would you write original songs?
Speaker 2:I could never write originals.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're doing covers.
Speaker 2:All I ever did was talk about how I wanted to write originals. I never did it.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting, this is a through line.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but this is why acting works for me. Yeah, I don't write. I mean, I write things, but I write content, man, but only because I write it. See, I write what I need to write.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, acting works for me because I get to someone gives me something, I go.
Speaker 1:I know how to bring this to life you like suffuse yourself into that and that's fun and enlightening and spiritual and all those good things.
Speaker 2:But you know, just on like covers, songs, that's so synonymous with acting and doing someone else's work. Okay, in terms of like spontaneity and understanding a backstory, but not necessarily showing everything in a performance that's going on or that has gone on for the character. Showing everything in a performance that's going on or that has gone on for the character.
Speaker 2:But I think about, I think what's made acting feel so normal to me is I sang other people's songs for so many years and they became my songs because there's meaning in it for me. Like if I sing a song that I really love and I've sung it a hundred times and I've listened to it 4,000 times, it's my song now and so when I perform it, you're getting my story, you're getting my interpretation of that song, and every time I perform the song, it's going to be different and I'm going to feel something different at different moments of the song and there's going to be different intonations and different dynamics with every time I sing that song. And I think that is what we strive for with performing. Yes, because every single time I perform a scene in someone else's work, it becomes mine, it's my scene, it's my character, it's me yeah and I'm, and every you see it, I'm going to feel something different at any given moment.
Speaker 2:I think that, to me, is such a bloody. That's the answer.
Speaker 1:There you go. Do you know what I mean? Well, yeah, it makes total sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It makes total sense. I want it noted for the record that we did start this conversation talking about the Cabaret Festival, and that's exactly what that's the spirit of cabaret come full circle. That's the spirit of cabaret. Yeah, it is of like these. You know some of the songs that people were singing last night over 100 years old yeah hearing it anew yeah, and it's theirs it's theirs.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yes, and I love that you said uh, what you were saying about, like, it's my scene now they're my words now. Again, this is a mindset thing and I'm starting to wonder if some of the training that I've experienced is, I think, voided that a little bit for me, in that it is not yours, these words do not belong to you, you are.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so interesting man.
Speaker 1:Like Dude. It was sort of like you are in service of the work you are not the work Okay. And I really think there's something to be said in 2025 for actors to have more agency in that capacity and I think it's changing. But I also think it's a very like.
Speaker 1:You are an empty vessel, you are a blank canvas, and some of our favourite actors are fully idiosyncratic. They are not classically trained and I don't mean any of this to say that I did not value my training. I valued it immensely, but you have to kind of be like it's mine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am the artist. Yeah, this isn't alive if I'm not here. You remember when when we met? We met at Eric Thompson's workshop last year and I was sort of amazed at how sort of frankly he encouraged people to like take up space and take up time. You're there for a reason.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it does not happen without you, yeah. And it does not happen without you Not to you know, not to like big yourself up, but to just go like take what you need to do, the job that you need to do. Yeah, and I was like whoa, that blows my mind, it's very interesting man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because I didn't train and I don't have anything.
Speaker 1:You didn't go to a training institution. Oh yeah, yeah, no, I've definitely found ways to train.
Speaker 2:Like I definitely. I actively seek out workshops and I trained doing amateur theatre and short films.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a whole thing about like full-time three years.
Speaker 2:I didn't do that and a lot of my favourite actors didn't do that. They're doing fine and they're very interesting as actors, I think, and they bring so much of themselves to the work. But one thing that I've observed and it's one singular thing out of all the positives that I have also observed from people that have trained that there are things that I certainly have missed out on right, but I think I'm I'm okay with collecting those things Now I'm, I'm I'm having these conversations being like what don't I know? You know, and that's very like a lot of practical things, a lot of industry things, a lot of crafty kind of things you know technique-y stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, All that sort of stuff I'm still most beneficial to me.
Speaker 2:I'm still a sponge. I'm still like all right, man, I will take what I can from you because you know you're experienced in your own ways. But one singular thing is this idea of like stripping your individuality from yourself and mistaking that for, like, the need to strip your ego. Yes, right, and yes, okay, definitely, you can't bring your ego onto a set. I don't know. Ego is kind of important in a sense, because it's self-confidence and it's the Also, that's human, we're humans and we're representing humans.
Speaker 1:Ego is crucial.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's the negative connotations of the word ego.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ego is important, yeah, but I think what I've observed this is where I was going with that. What I've observed is, I feel and I might be wrong some people have had their individuality beaten out of them in drama school or something. Do you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean. I do know what you mean.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't think it's true, for like everyone who's ever been through an institution.
Speaker 3:Certainly not.
Speaker 1:And, to be clear, like I had some fucking phenomenal teachers in drama school, it wasn't all positive experiences but on the whole really glad I went.
Speaker 3:Loved it.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't trade it fantastic. I think viola davis was on a thing talking about juilliard and um, the the interviewer was like, basically, did they train you to be a great actress or did they train you to be like a perfect white classical actress?
Speaker 1:and she was like well, obviously, obviously the latter. Like there was no room for someone who looked like me, who sounded like me, who presented like I do? Yeah, and how can you be surprised when you're trying to force yourself into a box that wasn't designed for you and it doesn't fit, yeah, for you and it doesn't fit, yeah, for me? I relied a lot on being told what makes me good, rather than doing the work which I think I've done since, and doing things like Psychopomp, finding what makes me good and letting everything else float away, letting my you know, whatever adornments I put on performances, letting them fall away rather than forcing myself to shed them. Because I found, like some core of truth and some core of understanding of the work and of my part in that Acting relies so much on that essence of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't want to lose that yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to get cast in the same role as I don't know, tilly Cobham-Hurvey, and that's really good, because there needs to be people who look like her and people and characters that she portrays fantastically yeah they need to be visible. Characters that look like me and that I portray fantastically also need to be visible yeah diversity is only going to be our friend, and there can be no true diversity without honoring the strength of the individual. And you can't do that if you're just trying to be perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that was what I was trying to be for so long. I just wanted someone to give me an A and a gold star and tell me that I was just as pretty as the other girls and, like you know, could say words good and look nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Does anyone have any idea who Poppy is Not through that?
Speaker 2:lens yeah, but audiences know who Poppy is because there are other Poppies out there that need to see Poppy. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, but it took me unlearning that I didn't, and I shouldn't try to be like. I shouldn't base what I value in myself upon how similar it is to other characteristics that I see in people who have the success that I want. So you define your own goals and you define your own definition of success.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I think you have to, because no one's going to do it for you.
Speaker 1:Hey, someone should do a podcast about that. That was really loud. I heard that in your drum kit. Oh, yes, I should do a podcast about that. That was really loud. I heard that in your drum kit.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, I should put a blanket over that or something, but see why I called it this.
Speaker 1:I do, I really do, and I don't know about you, but like being in my 30s, I think I feel a sense of like fortitude that I don't think I had in my 20s.
Speaker 2:Your 20s was waiting for someone to find you, find you, see you. Yeah, and the frustration. We were all so depressed because we're like, why, why don't they see me? Yeah, and 30s is like no man, I'm going to go get it now. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not that you don't need other people to see you, no but it's that you understand that you are worth being seen without someone else telling you, and also not everyone's going to give a shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there are so many people in the world that might resonate. So just make shit, yeah, just go be part of shit and throw the spaghetti on the wall and one piece might stick, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah and great. That's all you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think we figured it out a lot.
Speaker 1:I think we've really done a lot of good, solid work.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We've had important conversations. Yeah, we've made some very good points. I. We've had important conversations. Yeah, we've made some very good points. I think we've had a few laughs along the way.
Speaker 2:Any other burning topics. We want to, because I should. We should wrap up because I'm going to go to dinner six minutes ago. Okay, good, but it's okay. Great, but if there's anything else, we should discuss it. Otherwise you are always welcome to come back. So okay, Great, but if there's anything else, we should discuss it Otherwise you are always welcome to come back, so okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, you're interviewing me, chris Gunn. One thing I enjoy about your self-tapes is that you seem to be having so much fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, doing it yeah.
Speaker 1:Making them, the process of making them.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Doesn't seem like a chore the process of making them? Yes, doesn't seem like a chore. Seems like you are finding, like the joy in doing the work which I think is something that we neglect about self-tapes.
Speaker 2:You used to. I mean, yeah, I think you were saying out there that, like people seem to.
Speaker 1:Find them sort of burdensome.
Speaker 2:What were you saying about, like, when we started doing self-tapes, when they first became a thing, what was the attitude?
Speaker 1:it was sort of well. There was a kind of an energy of like um, this is a very new thing that we're being asked to do and we don't fully understand it yet, and how do we make it good and have? It was essentially like trying to emulate the experience of having an audition in the room. Yeah, in a tape, and I think we've moved on from that. Yeah, and great example is like the creativity and like just ridiculous joy that you have in your tapes, coming up with things like where it was like it's a battle scene like a war scene Like a war scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you were on the beach, but instead of like a gun, you had a tennis racket and you were hitting off tennis balls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that was all written Like the tennis balls was all. It's like a sports betting app, mean, uh, ad, right, so that was all in the scene, right, the tennis balls and stuff. It's a, it's an ad, it's out there. I didn't, I didn't get it. I was. I think they were casting four people when I was the fifth. Oh no, I was on hold for a while for that, but but yeah, like. So that brief was like they wanted you to.
Speaker 3:They wanted you to do all these things in front of a grey wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like swimming Swimming in the ocean was one of the things. So like she was swimming in the ocean and dodging tennis balls with a tennis racket and diving into a trench and looking over the trench and you know I was like yeah, you're like asked to make a short film and looking over the trench and you know I was like, yeah, you're like asked to make a short film.
Speaker 2:I could do this in the studio and go. But like whatever man, look, I live 10 minutes from the beach. I called my mate. I'm like, can you hold my iPhone? And we're going to make a little film. And we did that. And maybe it's a bit cheeky doing that, but I'm like you're going to get my performance out of that.
Speaker 1:And it's going to be a more pleasurable experience for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fine line, because I don't want to just put it out there like you should break rules and I said this with Nick as well like you shouldn't. Don't be arrogant about it. You know, if you have a brief and they specifically want you to do this in front of the wall, do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, sometimes they do and sometimes they just want to see yeah, just gauge. Sometimes they just want to see your eyes, yeah exactly, Exactly Don't.
Speaker 2:It's not about showing off, but I kind of felt like if I can make it look as close to the real thing as possible, the less imagining they have to do, the better.
Speaker 1:Especially for something like ads.
Speaker 2:Especially for something so like high action. You know, yeah, might as well, and I definitely don't do that shit every single time and I don't have the energy to do that every single time. That's ridiculous. But usually I'm in here and but I always like to have fun with it because I'm making little films. Yeah, I fucking love it.
Speaker 1:I've been given a script and I'm like it's a fun thing to do rather than like it's a task that I have been set against my will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I get an email. I'm like, thank God I got an email, yeah, like I get to audition for something and I have full autonomy over how this looks. And I've done auditions, I've done. You know, back in the day when we were auditioning in the room, I wasn't very good at that. Sometimes I was Like I had some success doing that, but like I was still figuring out how to act then. And I remember I did an audition with the Heesons for a war film. I can't remember what it was, but I had to cry over my horse who was about to be killed and I just could not remove myself from those four walls in that tiny little room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't, I don't know, I just wasn't it from those four walls in that tiny little room. Yeah, I can't, I don't know, I just wasn't. It was a long time ago now. I don't know how I would go about it now. But yeah, on a set you're not in the well, sometimes you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Sometimes you're not asked to imagine so much yeah you're not asked to imagine so much, but also you're given a lot more time and a lot more space to get there and they're going to give you as much as they can to help you and I mean, obviously the Heesums do that With the 10 minutes you get with them. They give so much to you. But yeah, self-taping is a blessing for me, like it changed my career, because I was like fuck it, man, I'm going to play and also I have these things that I've learned about filmmaking. I studied that and I'm like well, I'll use that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't think that's like it's not necessary to go to film school to learn how to do a self-tape. But having some like even educating yourself. I learnt YouTube tutorials, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I learnt how to use a camera after film school because I focus on editing and producing and I wanted to direct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how else are you going to practise learning how to use a camera?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an opportunity to make something Like have fun there, you go, yeah To make something Like have fun.
Speaker 3:There you go yeah.
Speaker 1:Emily Joy. She talks about, like find the most pleasurable way to go about this process. Yeah, for you. Yeah, man, that's it. She talks about like don't think of it as a necessary, it's a mindset thing. Don't think of it as a necessary evil, it's not a necessary evil, that is an opportunity. Yeah, yeah. And again, something I had to learn, something I had to reframe for myself consciously.
Speaker 2:Well, they don't want someone that wants it, they want someone that wants to do it. Does that make sense? Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't want the job. I want to do this thing right now. I want to do this thing right now. I want to do this audition? Yeah, this is me playing.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But I'm also thinking beyond the audition.
Speaker 1:But even if it stops at the audition.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, but I'm showing them the professionalism that I would bring to a set and the playfulness that I would bring to a set and the malleability. Is that a word? Yeah, yeah, thanks. Poppy me the thesaurus.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we should wrap up.
Speaker 1:I think we should too, we're just saying exactly to each other over and over again Exactly Two drunk girls in the bathroom.
Speaker 2:Exactly, dude. Thank you so much for being here. This was awesome. My pleasure. Guys, thank you so much for listening. That was a good one, right? Please check out Poppy on Instagram. Poppy underscore M-double-E underscore Poppy me. She's awesome, she's great, she's so creative. She knows what she's talking about. Please check out her stuff.
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