Go Pluck Yourself: The Actor’s Pursuit
Go Pluck Yourself! Because the Hollywood cavalry is not on its way to pluck you from obscurity like the proverbial claws of a claw machine. Only you are responsible for your little dent in this industry. No one is coming to pluck you out of the crowd — You have to pluck yourself.
Join actor Chris Gun as he chats to his creative pals about life as an actor navigating this wonderful industry.
These are the conversations that actors and filmmakers have between takes, between shoot dates, whilst waiting for their next gig. An insight into what life is really like for a creative on their way “up”.
This is Go Pluck Yourself - The Actor’s Pursuit
Presented by Chris Gun
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Go Pluck Yourself: The Actor’s Pursuit
Ep 6: An Actor's Guide to Directing Actors with Virginia Blackwell
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▶️ Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@gopluckyourselfpod
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This week, I sit down with Virginia Blackwell. A director, writer, musician, and actor, whose journey shows just how powerful it can be to cross creative boundaries.
Virginia started out as a classical musician, playing piano at three before discovering acting as a teenager at Flinders Drama Centre. Even though she resisted directing at first, those early experiences laid the groundwork for her filmmaking, and ultimately her short film Dragging the Chain, which is now heading to Copenhagen for its international premiere! Holy Smokes!
We talk about why she believes every director should learn to act, how she builds collaboration on set without pulling rank, and the very real fear of “cringe” that stops so many artists from even starting. “Everything is cringe until it works.”
This conversation is packed with insight on embracing multiple passions, making your own opportunities, and remembering to “eat all the figs” before they rot on the tree.
If you’re an actor curious about directing, a filmmaker wanting to connect better with performers, or just a creative person stuck at a crossroads, this one’s for you.
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🎵 Theme music by Nick Gun: soundcloud.com/nickgun
Hi, my name is Virginia Blackwell and you should go pluck yourself.
Speaker 2:Hello, welcome to Go Pluck Yourself, the actor's pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn. I know, I know it's Friday. I'm a whole day late. I'm very sorry, guys. I know you guys were all tossing and turning last night wondering where this week's episode was. But I'm here, I'm alive, I'm sounding better, I can breathe again, yeah.
Speaker 2:But to be honest, guys, I've found it really hard to keep up with the podcast this week. I can't seem to get off my phone and stop watching the news. There's just so much happening in the world right now and it's a bit terrifying. And we live in this very safe bubble over here in Australia and even we're creating such unnecessary problems and divisive problems between our own society. And I know that this is not the only issue that's happening in the world. But today I just want to pay my respects to the people of Nepal who are going through such a heartbreaking and frustrating and stressful time, and I especially wanted to pay my respects to all the people that died so unnecessarily in that protest the other day. My heart goes out to everyone in Nepal right now and everyone that's living abroad in Australia and around the world that can't be back home in Nepal with their families. All my love to all. I'm sorry for what you're all going through right now and the rest of the world. Okay, I'm not going to get into politics. That's for my other Instagram page, where I vent my frustrations with the world.
Speaker 2:But this podcast is about acting and we're going to talk about acting and I'm sorry, virginia, I don't want to dampen your episode with a heartbreaking opening, but the world's hurting man. Yeah, okay, here we go. If you're an actor who really just wants to understand the ins and outs of what goes on inside a director's mind or, conversely, you're a director who wants to better understand the language of actors so that you can communicate and get the best out of your actors, this episode is a true masterclass. My guest this week is the true powerhouse that is Virginia Blackwell. Virginia is a professionally trained actor. She is a director, a writer, a musician. She has already lived a very fulfilling and rich artistic life and she's just at the beginning of her journey and it's so exciting to see, it's such an honor to know her. I can't wait to see what she does with her career.
Speaker 2:I first met Virginia only a few months ago in person. I think we were following each other on Instagram for a while, but I went to one of her shows, the Ugly One, which was put on by Famous Last Words Theatre, and it was fantastic. I was literally cackling in my seat. It was such a good show, directed by James Watson. And, trust me, guys, if you guys ever get a chance to see any production by Famous Last Words Theatre, please go and check them out. Give them a follow. I'll put that right here Now.
Speaker 2:Virginia just doesn't seem to stop Even now, as she's about to start packing her bags to take her first short film, dragging the Chain, to Copenhagen. She is in pre-production and seeking funding for her first feature film, which she didn't want to tell me too much about, understandably, but you definitely need to keep an eye out for her work. Dragging the Chain is not online yet, but it will be on YouTube eventually. So please make sure you give her a follow so you don't miss out on any of her work that she's about to release. You can follow her on Instagram at Ginny. That's spelled G-I-N-N-I, separated by underscores. You'll work it out. I'll put that one in the description as well below. So I'll put that one in the description as well below. So make sure you give her a follow. Don't miss any of her upcoming work.
Speaker 2:I really loved having this conversation with Virginia. It was really interesting. We covered everything from her experience at Flinders Drama School to how she was thrust into the world of directing and some really wonderful insights into how her training as an actor has strengthened her skills as a director in the best way. Now remember guys, this is the internet. Everything you hear on this podcast is purely subjective. If and when you hear something that sounds like advice, please remember that these are just loose conversations between two creatives. We're mainly just spitballing, but that doesn't mean that we don't have some really interesting insights or opinions or ideas. But please don't take anything you hear on this podcast as gospel. If something resonates with you try it out.
Speaker 2:But if not, just please ignore it, but do join the conversation. If you have an opinion on something, or you hear something you really like or you don't like, please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Now one more thing before we get into the chat. Please help out the podcast by hitting that subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening or watching. It really does help get the podcast in front of the right audience. All right, actors, directors, producers, filmmakers, whatever you are, whatever you call yourself, get your notes app ready, fire up your thumbs, get ready to take some notes, and I hope this sparks some inspiration for you as much as it did me. All right, guys, now please enjoy my wonderful chat with the unstoppable Virginia Blackwell. With the unstoppable Virginia Blackwell. So what's going on? How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. I'm good I've been busy, which is nice, not always the case in the arts Busy doing what I feel really lucky. I created this short film called Dragging the and I. I had no real experience when I made it um, but I managed to pull together. The most insane team ever made something we're really proud of, and we just found out that we got into um down under film festival in copenhagen.
Speaker 1:so no way yeah, I know it's kind of crazy how good. Um. So our first our sort of debut of the film is going to be in copenhagen, um in like three weeks that's awesome, yeah yeah, it's gonna be fantastic and you're going I am me and riley scott who shot the film with me uh, we're going over to see it on the big screen. So it's gonna be, really cool. Is it available anywhere here? Not yet it will be.
Speaker 1:Um, we're kind of waiting for the festival run to finish because some of them are a bit funny about, you know, distribution and who gets to see it first, that kind of thing. But yeah, it was such a nice surprise and it's such a beautiful festival Like it's yeah, kind of amazing that we're able to go at all.
Speaker 2:So how long are you going over for?
Speaker 1:Well, we're going over for the festival week and then Riley and I are just taking the rest of the trip. So I think we're going to. Amsterdam together for a few days and then I'm going off to Paris by myself for like eight days. He's going off and doing his own thing, and then we're meeting back in Berlin for like a week. Yeah, and so nice, how lucky.
Speaker 2:I know it's crazy something you made is is taking you overseas.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, I know especially something that you've worked on for so long, and I feel like this is an experience it's not like unique to people behind the camera either. I think it's maybe even worse sometimes for actors, because I think about the guys who were in dragging the chain yeah they shot it in 2023, then they heard nothing yeah, for ages and they have seen it at like a little cast and crew screening yeah but that was beginning of this year, Like so long of being like what's it doing?
Speaker 1:Where are we going? Am.
Speaker 2:I going to you know. That's what happens, though, Like you shoot something and then you're just like okay, I mean, I'm in the dark, I'm in the dark now I guess I mean I might see it. I've got projects that I'm like hey, what happened to that thing we shot like and I just don't. I don't know if I never got finished or that's such a universal experience for actors. I think yeah, like just going well.
Speaker 1:I I hope that I did good and I I don't know if it'll ever materialize into something I can use, but look, if it sucks, don't put it out you know, leave it yeah it's all good I had an experience once when, uh, someone, someone was asking me to edit their film and they knew that it couldn't be saved right
Speaker 2:but they, they wanted me to save it and they, they hired a cinema like three months in advance and they're like, can you have it finished by then? And I was like, why would you show people something you don't know you're happy with? Yeah, do you know what I mean? I don't think that's how art works. No, do you know what I mean? Like you make as much as you can, you make what you can, you put everything you can into everything you make and then you throw the spaghetti on the wall and you see what sticks. Absolutely you don't pick it up off the ground and be like, oh no, this bit.
Speaker 1:But try it, yeah, yeah I mean it's a bit chewy, yeah, yeah, you know yeah, it's tricky, especially when it's something like you're editing and you're not the person in charge of the whole project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you want me to save this thing, and then it's, it's kind of on me yeah, and at what point?
Speaker 1:like, how do you have that conversation?
Speaker 2:it's so hard to go like I said no, yeah, yeah, I'm out, yeah, and sometimes you have to, but but it's so difficult.
Speaker 1:It's so difficult and editing in particular, I feel like it can just make or break a film. Yeah. And it takes so long, so much longer than I ever anticipated. Yeah, like Dragging the Chain. We had Billy Lambert Stockman, who's insane, she's so talented, fantastic, and I had come to her and been like okay, so we finished shooting in like march. I want it done, I want it done by november. She just laughed and was like, all right, like we'll, we'll try is that a?
Speaker 2:short it was for what we were doing.
Speaker 1:We had so much footage, and so, because it was my first film too, I will definitely take ownership of the fact that I did not write or shoot for the edit. I really was like everyone on set was so patient with me because I was like I don't really know what I'm doing with this bit, or like we shot a couple of different scenes that like didn't work when we came to actually cutting the film together. Or like maybe a more experienced director even me, now I'm like, oh, I know what I wouldn't do there, but that's.
Speaker 2:But that's why you made, that's why that's why we go out and just do it, because I mean you can't just wait to be like, oh, when will I be ready to to make a film you just have to be like I'm gonna go make a film and and then I'll learn from that experience.
Speaker 1:The biggest thing that I learnt from that whole experience and I felt like I learnt like a semester's worth of film school every single day of the shoot, I just was constantly soaking in new information, but you don't actually need anyone's permission to start making the things you want to make. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And kind of like what we were talking about with lauren and the sort of teapot analogy is like yeah, yeah you, you don't actually need it to be perfect. The first time and like it's amazing if you can make it into something that you are really proud of. And yeah, especially for my first film I am I'm really proud of what we were able to do yeah, yeah, absolutely but like I didn't need it to be perfect, I kind of went into it and went. I know what I want to say.
Speaker 1:I know what I want it to look like. I know who I want to work with and I just want to try it and if it's terrible, then that sucks, but I'll never show it to anyone.
Speaker 2:I doubt it's terrible Thank, you. But I've seen snippets of it and it looks unreal.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much it looks so good.
Speaker 2:Thank you, kate Owen. She's unbelievable. Oh my goodness, so was she the lead, yeah she is.
Speaker 1:I mean the three actors that we had. We had Kate Owen, tom Healy, who actually taught me and Kate how to act at drama school. Oh really, yeah, he was my teacher through drama school, so it was a really special thing to to have him on and work with him in that way. And then jude turner, who I don't know if you've met him before, but he is so wonderful he's kind of a young guy yeah, yeah, he was in um, I think. Yeah, I've forgotten.
Speaker 2:Follow each other on socials yeah, they've renamed the film. I can't remember what they've renamed it to, but it was called emotion is dead um, yeah, it was the feature that he was in and riley actually suggested to look at him.
Speaker 1:Um, because we'd auditioned so many people for this role and every single person that we had was phenomenal, like all of the actors that went up for it were so talented.
Speaker 1:But I was like, oh, there's just like some quality that I can't quite describe yeah that I can't find in these auditions and like we were trying to narrow it down and there were some really, really beautiful performances from people, but I was like who they are as an individual was just like not quite in alignment with what we were looking for for the character, yeah, and he was like just have a look at this guy. Like I saw him in adelaide film festival. I don't know if he's like the right fit or whatever, but, um, just see, see what you think. And he showed me his instagram.
Speaker 1:I was like that's the guy how good and then we got him to send in a tape just to see, like you know, what he was like on camera. Yeah, and he was phenomenal and literally just smashed it out of the park immediately.
Speaker 1:I was like this is unreal oh yeah sometimes those casting choices come down to a vibe like oh yeah it's so odd and I think it kind of it made me a little bit more confident, actually, weirdly, as an actor, to go through the experience of actually watching all of these tapes and being like, wow, these people are so talented, but there's something that's missing. That yeah that is nothing to do with anything they're doing, yeah, and then have someone pop up who I'd never heard of before and just be like, yep, that's the quality that I'm looking for. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That he just innately has in his personality yeah. It kind of made me go oh, sometimes if I'm missing out on a role, I'm so it's so easy to be like, oh man, I probably To take it to heart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so easy to be like oh man, I probably To take it to heart and blame your performance or your? Acting. Yeah, Sometimes it's. It's literally just the vibe or the chemistry that you give off or or just, yeah, everything that's made you who you are in that moment that just happened. You just need it to fit to this very specific character Sometimes.
Speaker 1:No one that I watched was I like that was bad. Yeah, no one that I watched was I like that was bad and actually I don't think in all of the auditions I've ever watched for projects I've done or other people's projects where they've been like what do you think for casting? Yeah. I've never once watched an actor and been like, oh, that was shit, Like it doesn't happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just think it was comforting for me as an actor.
Speaker 1:As an actor, yeah, to go like, oh, it's actually not even a quality thing, it's like, purely, what kind of energy do I bring to that role? And some of the performances that we had in the tapes for that character was so beautiful but just not the right person for whatever reason.
Speaker 2:For that character. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's also funny and really lovely and comforting from an acting perspective for me to then look at, like all of the conversations that are happening behind closed doors in film world yeah where I'm recommending people for roles, other people are recommending people for roles and that those people that I'm seeing in those auditions or I'm watching in their plays or showcases or whatever that stuff isn't going unnoticed by industry.
Speaker 1:Like actually a lot of people are talked about super highly. I've never had anyone like go oh, I don't like that actor, I don't think they're any good, Like it's. Actually I was shocked at how often people were talking highly of actors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is so much support in this industry, and especially I mean I only really know this Adelaide bubble, but I've never heard people talk badly about anyone in this industry Yep, and I think people just genuinely are just happy to see other people doing things and trying things and working together, and it's. It's just about supporting each other and making things.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and there is this very toxic competitive idea. That kind of creeps into your brain sometimes, and it's not that you feel it about other people, but you sort of project their thoughts onto you and you think, oh, they see me as competition and they're definitely thinking badly about me or talking badly about me, but who am I to impose that idea on them, that that's what they think of me Do?
Speaker 1:you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's crazy how easy it is to convince yourself that you know what other people are thinking yeah or like, what other people are saying it's really rude to assume someone else thinks that way, to assume that someone else is such a horrible person to think that about someone else you know but it's protective right.
Speaker 1:It's a reflex to be like it's projection yeah to go like well, if I think that somebody else is thinking these things that actually I think about myself or I'm insecure about in myself then, that makes it easier to to deal with if I externalize it rather than confronting that like maybe that's actually coming from me and my own insecurity. I think I definitely felt that with, like talking about you know, what career path to go down. Coming from you know, my background was originally in music, classical music. Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started playing piano when I was three Nice. And started classical voice when I was three. Nice and uh started classical voice when I was there's a piano right there. She's gonna play a song at the end of this episode?
Speaker 2:no, I won't what that's in the contract.
Speaker 1:Hey, come on now. Yeah, I like I started out there and I had a really wonderful like semi-professional career as a teenager, which was kind of crazy no way I know yeah and then awesome I like I came to an impasse when I was leaving high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd done like maybe like two years of drama classes. I didn't do it through most of school, but I did the Adelaide Cabaret Festival. They had a program called Class of Cabaret, which I think they still run. Basically, you got in these groups and you wrote like a little improv or like little speech that you were going to do, yeah, and then you'd like launch into playing the piano and singing or playing guitar and singing whatever. Yeah, nice, and I ended up doing a little section that was like a stand-up comedy piece about how much my parents didn't want me to get tattoos and how badly I wanted them. So you wrote that.
Speaker 2:I wrote it. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And did it in front of like 200 people. It was terrifying.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:How old were you? I was in year 11, so like 16.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, vulnerable age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to try and be funny in front of people at that age is like wow, but it was so nice because it actually went over really well. Yeah, and I was like man, maybe, I maybe I can do this.
Speaker 2:I'm hilarious. Maybe I'm actually the funniest person to ever live in the entire world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I might be better than everyone else, exactly, yeah and then I I was so lucky that I had uh, as part of that program I was doing this night school. Yeah, that was like a drama course I don't even know how to describe it was like specifically for acting, which is so amazing. And I had this teacher named Emma, emma Heavenstright. She works in industry.
Speaker 1:Hi, emma, she is so delightful and I really credit her with like giving me the confidence to actually pursue this as a career, because I'd done the show, or I was doing the show at the time and I was like man, I really love this, but like I don't really know. I think when I was like seven or eight, I'd been in a school musical and one of the parents had pulled me aside and been like, oh, you're so good at music, but don't ever act. I was like, oh man, all right, I know it's so weird, but I was like talking to her about it and I know it's crazy how much those things stick I know they do, they get in it's wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she was so great because she she looked at what I was doing and she was like you could absolutely do this as your career. You definitely should consider going to drama school. I will help you find monologues. I'll help you prep for it.
Speaker 1:Like she was so wonderful, how nice is that I know it's so beautiful and I got to like reconnect with her as an adult and yes, he's still in touch yeah, yeah, um, because, like the you know, my normal drama classes were fine, but it was just so interesting to like have that support from a teacher and someone who, yeah, I really looked up to, um, and that kind of set me on the path to do acting, yeah, and I loved it. I absolutely loved drama school like it was so right for me.
Speaker 1:I know it's not right for everyone, um, and I definitely don't think it's necessary for actors to go to drama school, but it was necessary for me yeah, well, I mean like listening back to some of the episodes that we've done so far.
Speaker 2:I've had people on that are that have gone to drama school and and that haven't, and I'm in the latter category and. I really hope I'm not coming across as like damning it, no, no, no, like you don't need to go there, because I'm only talking from my experience, and I hope I'm not coming across as biased. I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Good, that's a disclaimer, but I am so curious. I'm so curious and there's probably something in me that's like what don't I know and what did I miss out on? So I think that's what I love about doing this is learning about what you got out of drama school and what goes on there. But yeah, tell me about drama school. Where did you go? Went to Flinders.
Speaker 1:Drama Centre yeah, so same as Connor. Yeah, and, man, like I think I really needed it because it's changed a little bit now in terms of when they let people in. But when I was going through um, they really waited until most people were quite a bit older to let them in. So most people in my year level had auditioned like at least once before, sometimes twice, or a couple people who were like three times and is that because they want people to have a bit of life experience?
Speaker 3:yes, yeah yeah, I've heard that, I've heard that with like NIDA and stuff.
Speaker 2:they kind of turn people away if they're 18. Yeah, Like, go get some trauma mate.
Speaker 1:I think in some ways, like I'm not saying at all, that there's like one right way to do it but I kind of think in some ways that it is a good rule of thumb because, not so much because I think you need to like have a huge amount of life experience to be an actor, like I think whatever your life is is experience enough. Yeah, but I do think that it helps to clarify for some people whether or not it's actually something they really want to do.
Speaker 2:As a career.
Speaker 1:Yes, If you get knocked back and you go, oh well, I'm just not meant to do it.
Speaker 2:I guess that's it. Yeah, then this is not the career path for you, because as you would well know, like you just get rejected constantly in this job?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and that's like something you have to get quite comfortable with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but also, you know, the people that I really admire are the people who you know maybe had a setback like they didn't get into drum school or they they, for whatever reason, chose not to, and they were building it from the the ground up yeah and that they managed to I hate this term, but like they hustled their way up to where they are, um, and I think that's such a good quality for an actor or any creative really to have probably a good quality for a person to have is like I want something, I'm gonna go make it happen, yeah, but I loved it because I think I wanted intensity. At the start, I wanted to really throw myself into it as someone who had no real experience with acting performance. I did a lot of music performance, but not a lot of experience with text and not a lot of experience, um, you know, working with other people as actors. Yeah, and that's what I think I loved most about it was that it was every day like 8, 30 till 5 so intense man.
Speaker 1:It was so intense and so like no holidays, really like you might. I think you got like no food, two or three, literally like sleep.
Speaker 1:No, it was full on, and like there were moments, of course, that I was like this is so hard, like this is the hardest thing I've ever done, but I think it was so rewarding to have the experience of doing it every day, building a practice and like having those skills to fall back on, which you absolutely can do by, you know, going to classes that aren't as structured as that, but I know that I needed that structure to actually force me to do it.
Speaker 2:The structure is something that it's so hard to find anywhere else yeah I mean, like if you choose to go when you're younger, before, you sort of have those the pressures of the world and you know, bringing in money and keeping a job, and you kind of have this opportunity to just throw everything into acting. And learning to act and structure is something that it's really hard to keep up outside of drama school and I think it took me a very long time to even set up a lifestyle that fits around acting and it's probably part of the reason why I didn't really act through most of my 20s. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I'm like when yeah, I've got to work, I've got to, you know when will I have time or money to go to workshops or do a play or even just meet people and find those experiences. So, yeah, drama school is a great opportunity to just be like, right, this is it, this is my whole life, right now, before I get too late into my 20s, when the pressures of the world are forcing me out of this industry.
Speaker 1:And I do think there's a lot of privilege that comes along with being able to set aside four years that you, that you can devote all of your time and energy and resources into this Very lucky, absolutely, and that's why I think it's not necessary for everyone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The dice that we rolled in this life to have the opportunities to do something like that we're extremely lucky and I don't think it's a loss we all recognise that like yeah, this is. It's such a privileged choice to make as a lifestyle. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:It is a big thing to weigh up to go like it is a full-time job to be at drama school or up to go like it is a full-time job to be at drama school, or at least it was in my experience but what you get out of it is the intensity of having constant work, which just never happens in industry. Um, outside of that, it's also I really loved as someone who didn't feel confident or experienced when I went in yeah that it was a safe place to fail. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, it was a like the structure and the teachers that I had was so wonderful and so rigorous, but also like being within the walls of of the drama school. It was like I can do the worst work of my entire life and nobody is going to know about it, except for the other 12 people that were in the room with me at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're all going through it too, exactly, and they're all feeling the same fears and yeah, and, and learning that safety from their peers as well.
Speaker 1:100 and I think like that's really the main things I got out of drama school I mean the connections with my teachers are so wonderful as well yeah but I think if you were a more like self-confident person than I was when I was 18, going to drama school, then I don't know that it's necessary for you to be in that environment, but for me it was because it allowed me to go. Let me set my perfectionism aside and explore the possibilities of what I can do in an environment that is designed for me to make mistakes in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think about that and the choices that I made and the pathways that I took. I don't think I would have made it through drama school. I was such a defiant little shit. Do you know what? I mean. Like. I just didn't like people telling me what to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And even as a younger actor doing amateur plays and directors having these ideas. I'm like what would you know? You know what I mean, but that was something that I really learnt, like come on, man, they're not criticising you. They're trying to make something you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so funny though, like I mean, I think we got spoiled at drama school in a lot of ways because we had such fantastic teachers who were all brilliant directors, yeah. And then I came out and I definitely experienced a little bit of that, mostly because I found a lot not all, obviously, but a lot of newer film directors don't know how to talk to actors. Yes.
Speaker 1:They really don't know how to talk to actors, and I feel like I actually stole this from Tom Healy, who was in the film. Yeah, I really believe that all directors need to know how to talk to actors, and I feel like I actually stole this from Tom Healy, who was in the film. Yeah, I really believe that all directors need to learn how to act and not just learn on paper, but you have to actually do it because you don't know that. What you're asking is stupid or really difficult.
Speaker 2:It just doesn't translate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, or or you know what's hard about being an actor without having done it. Yeah, and I get like you can learn over time with experience directing and watching what actors respond to and you know that kind of thing. It's not impossible, but I think it's such a fast track to being able to succeed as a director. Yeah.
Speaker 1:To know what it's like to be in front of the camera, because it's tough, like it's the best job ever, but it's also really difficult for so many reasons and it's really hard when, like, if there is a communication breakdown between the two parties.
Speaker 2:it's so hard. As a younger actor, I was very intimidated by any director or anyone behind the camera or any crew. It was when I realised that, like we're all on the same team and they actually want me to do, they want to help me succeed Absolutely. When I realised that and we're all on the same, it's an even playing field, we're on the same team I really relaxed and I was actually able to do good work and it was a big shift for me.
Speaker 2:So you started in music but then you went into acting. So for me. So you started, you started in music but then you went into acting. So where did the spark to become to try out directing? Where did that come from? Was it, was it being in front of the camera and going like I can do this better? Or was it? Or was it like I think I can make some really interesting work with the knowledge I know as an actor? But where was the actual spark? Where did that come from, to try out directing?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I keep talking about it. But tom, yeah, healy. Yeah, he was my head of acting um at drama school and I don't know whether he just went. This girl's a control freak uh, she needs to put that energy somewhere or what it was well um, you have to ask him.
Speaker 2:Well, you haven. You haven't directed me before I know I'll let you know if we ever work together Exactly Like oh, I'm not doing that again. Yeah, no, avoid her seriously.
Speaker 1:But he kept forcing me into these situations where I would have to direct, and it was kind of funny at first because I thought it was a coincidence. Like every year, I think from second year, we did a film block as a student body. Basically, everyone had to act in the film. They tried to make it that you had to have everyone in even roles, which is like never going to happen.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so hard, and you also had to-. How do you find material for that? Well, you have to write it. You have to write it, oh my God.
Speaker 1:So you have to devise it as a group. Write it out. This is why I wouldn't have, and it was really tough because we're not cinematographers. We're not lighting designers, we're not costume designers.
Speaker 1:And so it was really difficult to try and coordinate all of that. And I remember the first film that I did, I think I said I would be a writer and then I ended up co-directing it, and then none of these will see the light of day. By the way, if you have a copy, delete it or I will find you, but like seriously, it was so bad. But delete it, or I will find you, but like seriously, it was so bad. But the second one I ever did, I was adamant I was not going to direct and then my friend Lockie Williams, who's a really beautiful actor and musician.
Speaker 1:He was set to direct it and then he got really sick and we were right there ready to shoot oh no. And I remember my film teacher pulling me aside and being like you have to do it, you have to direct it. And I was like what? This was the one thing I said I wasn't gonna do. So I did it and it was tough but it was fine. And then third year film was like the big film and I remember talking about it with so many people. I was like absolutely 100. No, I am not directing it, I do not care. Yeah, I'm not doing it again, because it was so stressful and so difficult and I didn't know what I was doing. And it was like a couple of heads of department that were like everybody, choose what you want to do, but we're going to decide who's directing it and who's writing it. And I remember sitting in this meeting being like can't wait to just be like right at number four in the team. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he was like so Virginia's going to be directing? I was like you are actually joking Like this is the last thing I wanted. I don't understand why you're doing this. To me this is so difficult Like I've never been more stressed in my life. But there was no discussion. It was like that's what's happening.
Speaker 2:That's what's happening, yeah.
Speaker 1:There was one day in particular where I was like this is a disaster. It's all falling apart. It was like one week out from shooting. I was like why have you done this to me?
Speaker 2:He was like Virginia.
Speaker 1:Be honest, where else were you going to be, like you are meant to be, a director?
Speaker 1:There's like guide people because you're skilled at doing that and at the time I was like I don't think that anyone else thinks that except for you, mate, like nobody else wants to have me in this role. I don't want to be in this role. It's like really, really difficult. He was like no, trust me, like I put you in this role for a reason and it's because I can see that you have really good potential as a director. Oh, that's really's really sweet.
Speaker 1:It was so lovely and like. At the time I was like, but it's still really hard, but like now I look at it and I go, oh my God, he knew before I did. And I do think that, despite the fact that I don't think anyone in my year would say that those films were a pleasant experience, like they were always difficult, but despite that I really do credit the fact that I was always put in that position with why I was able to make Dragon and the Chain as my first film because, I had made so many mistakes Like every mistake you could possibly make as a director, as a writer, I made it in those films and the environment allowed me to fail, yeah, and go okay.
Speaker 1:Well, that wasn't great, but that taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't work, so that when it did come to being on a film set, as a director, yeah, as a writer I hope that I was able to run that set effectively you know and make it an enjoyable experience. And.
Speaker 1:I know I loved being on set and I loved working with everyone and everything went really smoothly, which I do also credit the crew that I had, majorly Of course, that's the difference you have from trying to make a film in drama school, where everyone is an actor, not filmmakers.
Speaker 2:in drama school where everyone is an actor, not filmmakers, where I would imagine that that experience would be, so much pressure on you as the director and the sort of obligation to sort of have your hands on every little department, which is so different to what it's really like when you're working with dedicated crew yeah that know their job and know their obligations and and are there to take that pressure off you so you can just focus on your job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, directly, and I mean, I also think like it wasn't just the other people in my year, it was also at the time. I didn't want to be a director, I wanted to be an actor. And being a director meant I had the smallest role in every film we did because I didn't have the capacity to direct and also do a lead role.
Speaker 1:It just wasn't possible. And so I remember being so frustrated because I was like, well, I never get to do like anything meaty in film acting because I'm constantly. Well, I never get to do like anything meaty in film acting because I'm constantly directing. Yeah. And that was, you know, I think, a big reason why I felt tension about it, because I was like well, I want to make sure I'm doing a good job for everyone else yeah, yeah. But like at the time I was like I want to also be acting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to be directed by someone.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when did you graduate?
Speaker 1:2021. Okay.
Speaker 2:And so what was that experience like? After uni, you know, what did you go into Like. What was your first film or your first experience? Did you just like go straight into theatre, or did you find opportunities in film, or did you continue to?
Speaker 1:direct or what. Yeah, it was tough. I mean we were sort of the second COVID year. Oh, of course, yeah. So I mean I was really lucky that I'd had two theatre projects lined up right away before I left. One of them was with Cram, the other one was with Connor Reedy for his grad show. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And those were so amazing and I came out and was like, oh, this is so nice. And then those projects ended and I was like guys, and then those projects ended and I was like guys like what are we doing now? And it was like, well, there's nothing because there's too many risks, like definitely it was really quite a brutal start to my experience to industry, because it was like nothing was happening like literally zero.
Speaker 1:And every you know, every agent you contact, or at least you know. At the time it was like we can't take anyone new on because we can't even get work for our actors that we already have. Like so sorry, contact us in three years. You know you set these expectations of what your life is going to look like when you come out of drama school. And they're almost always wrong, but like this was particularly wrong because it was like there was no student film to hustle in.
Speaker 1:There was no short indie film that was being produced, like it was empty. Yeah, it was definitely not an easy intro to industry.
Speaker 2:So when did it start picking up then, man I?
Speaker 1:had a few different things like really really major family illness and things like that that meant that I stepped away from the arts pretty much completely, um until sort of, I guess 2024 really, wow, okay, um, I started writing dragging the chain because I was dealing with this you know close family member who was terminally ill and I was like I need to be creative because I feel like if you're a creative person, that's not a job that you do, that's a thing that you are yeah, and and being away from it for so long I was like I just think I'm going insane not making stuff and you know, coming out, I was disillusioned a little bit with the kinds of roles that were available to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I went through a period where I I think I did like five or six auditions in a row for like dead girlfriend number two you know it was like I can't do another dead girlfriend like please, yeah, let me do something else.
Speaker 1:But I was like, okay, well, I need a creative outlet to cope with what's going on in my life. Yeah, and I'm also, if I'm not happy with the roles that are out here for for me or for women in general, or you know whatever, I can be the person to create that.
Speaker 1:Yeah absolutely and so that kind of brought me back into the arts a little bit yeah into writing and yeah, yeah, and it kind of directing again and yeah yeah, because I really I hadn't thought about directing really at all until I started writing this project and I was so convinced that this thing was never gonna get made, like yeah it was like a two week long minimum, two weeks shoot in the desert.
Speaker 1:So you have to house 30 plus people oh my god in the outback for two weeks. But when I was pitching it I was like like there's no way, like they'd have to be insane, because the other part of it was it wasn't just that, I would say, 50 of the film takes place in a moving vehicle, which is like not, you really shot yourself in the foot I know well that's.
Speaker 1:I had such hubris because I was like it's never getting made. So I was like I'll just write what I want to write yeah, yeah, I I don't want to just write the the typical first film, which is definitely what I did in drama school that was like it's all set in a living room and you know we just talk a lot like I was like no, I love horror films, I love thrillers I I love road movies. Like I want to try and write that so is that what it is?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah um and kate, who starred in the film. Yeah, um, very, very, very close friend of mine for a very long time yeah, she was crazy enough to help me write a grant application for helpman. Um, then I sent it off, didn't hear anything. Then they got me in for a call back and they were like we want to interview you. And I was like, oh my god, like what is going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how good and then I got in there and they were so lovely, but I basically sat at the head of this table with, like some of the the leading industry professionals in the state wow, and was like here's why you should give me ten thousand dollars as someone who has no idea what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think our budget I know it's like a bit taboo to talk about money, but whatever, I think I think at the time our budget was like 40 grand, yeah, and I was like, look, we're only gonna get 10 grand from these people yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember we applied for another grant and they were like you I've got to be joking like there's no way you're going to raise that amount of money, um. But I went in and I must have yapped long enough and convincing enough that they were like you know what, let's just give her a shot, let's just see what happens. Really, yep. And they ended up awarding it to me, um, as someone who had never really made a film before, and I was so grateful, like I just I couldn't even believe it. And then the reality set in that I was actually going to have to make the film and I was like oh the pressure oh my God, like what have I done?
Speaker 1:Because I've written this incredibly ambitious idea thinking oh well, you know. I'll never actually have to work out the logistics of that and then, thank goodness, I ended up finding the crew that I did because, they were so on board and so good at being supportive and like everybody just really wanted to make it, which was such a blessing like that. I don't think that always happens on sets like that. Everyone is like a 100%. We want to make this work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like poor Maddie Ziegertz who was producer one of the producers on this project. She was so wonderful. She's like fielding my phone calls at 2am, being like what are we going to do? Like I've just got this email or this thing isn't working or whatever, and she was like we will handle it. Like, and you know know, Riley was so incredible like he's just so phenomenal at what he does, oh my god like I just adore him.
Speaker 1:Um, and he was so great too because I I've never experienced it, thankfully, but I definitely had heard other female directors who were like just be mindful of cinematographers, because sometimes you know, they can talk down to you or whatever, and I was like oh okay, like I can't imagine Riley doing that never, no, and he, I, literally I came into it not just can't imagine. I know Riley wouldn't know, he wouldn't know he's so good like that, but also like I came into it going dude, I don't Like.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'm doing. I think that you're great, but like I'm going to be honest, like there are going to be times where you're going to say something to me and I'm going to go, what does that mean? Like, what lens is that? I don't understand what that term means you know, but that's why you have Riley, exactly.
Speaker 2:Because, that's his job. Well, yeah, that's the thing, and I know that he's the kind of guy that would you know. If you seem like you're seeking a moment to learn something, he would do that in a really gracious way.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm sure of that you know, yeah, and I mean I will say I was kind of astounded at how welcoming the film community is, like I've just had nothing but positive experiences, which is so wonderful, like every single person I've come across has been so supportive, so welcoming, like so many of the film guys that I admired for years and was like oh my God, they're so amazing, like I hope I get to work with them one day. Yeah, like coming to the screenings and stuff they're like supporting. Yeah, it's just like so wonderful and so supportive. And I think like the nicest thing that I've sort of recognised this long out of drama school is like if one person wins, everybody wins. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I think there's definitely this sort of cliche that actors in particular are like preying on other people's downfalls or they're really jealous or you know like, and obviously that's a natural response. There's nothing wrong with seeing someone else get a gig you really wanted and going like man, I wish I'd got that. But like, ultimately, if somebody manages to reach incredible heights or they do a project that's really fantastic and it takes off, that is only a good thing for everybody else in this industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it, you know because it's like what does competition really achieve?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just kind of singles you out and isolates you from people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it makes you feel insecure.
Speaker 2:That's the only thing that it ultimately achieves you know, it cuts you off from people and as soon as you lean into those feelings, you're your own island then, and people won't back you anymore.
Speaker 1:No, but it's easier said than done, obviously, I think, coming from a place of curiosity and and wanting to learn from everyone, um, and knowing that, like everybody who you come into contact with has something valuable that you can learn from them, and like that also, you just don't know where people are going to end up in this industry. It's so random and like someone that you met, who was you know, an extra on a random ad that you did could end up on the next major TV show or you know some big film for Netflix or whatever, and it's like you just don't know where these paths are going to go.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's so tough not to be a comparison game in this job, speaking of like toxic thoughts, that kind of sneak into your, into your head. Since I've started doing this, the feedback has been so nice, like so lovely, and people are tuning in and they and they're sending me really amazing messages and it's it's, it's all positive yeah and and even the even if I have received criticism or not.
Speaker 2:Not even criticism, just feet constructive feedback, like I don't know what's going to happen. Like you know, we just hit record and we sit down, we have a chat and like obviously we check in with each other about what kinds of things, what direction we want to go, but like it just is what it is and like and that's how you keep it genuine and real. But what I find when people give me feedback is I sort of have this response of like I don't have any control over it. What do you mean? Like how am I supposed to implement these things? I don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 2:What I've realized is that when someone else is giving me feedback, what that means is I've made something and I've put it out in the world and they feel a sense of ownership over it, which is really lovely. Like they feel the sense that, like you've given me this thing and now it's, it's. I'm a stakeholder in it, you know, and I want it to be as good as it can be and I've got my own ideas and I want, I want to shape it. Can I give you these ideas and, as the creator, I can take that or leave it so okay, so you're about to put your film out into into this festival down under film festival
Speaker 2:yeah, as a first-time director, where you know you can self-analyse and go. I know what's wrong with it and I'm okay with what's wrong with it because I can see my mistakes or where I've grown already. But people are going to come at you and say you know they're going to write reviews. Oh, I really like this. But this was a problem and it's part of the contract of putting something out into the world. I mean, how do you take that? Like, are you prepared to take that? How are you preparing to take that?
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, so I think any feedback that anyone has obviously, like you can filter it. But, like you said, you know you don't need to take on every piece of feedback, and I definitely didn't.
Speaker 1:But, like, if somebody responds to my film and has a note or has feedback that's valuable to me, yeah, and if you can step outside of how personal that feels, yeah, because as much as I would like to, you know, feel like I can make whatever I want in a bubble and I don't care about what the audience and just have people tell you everything you do is wonderful.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I don't grow like that, you know and like there's only so much that you can really analyze yourself. You need other people to see your work and respond to it and I I found that doing it from a really early point and doing it often desensitized me a little bit to that criticism. And I know a lot of people don't like to do that because they feel like it's probably individual to the project you know, know, like, what are you working on?
Speaker 1:How, what, at what point do you give it to people? I think it's definitely really important, like I just applied for funding for my first feature, which is very exciting.
Speaker 2:Oh, amazing, thank you.
Speaker 1:And I definitely waited, like I haven't shown anyone outside of my family what that outline looked like and I didn't even tell them about the idea until I'd finished the outline, because I was like no, I know that if I sort of speak this out too early, that it's not ready for feedback and it could kill it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's going to start shaping, you're going to start pleasing other people's expectations or trying to appease other people's expectations, and then eventually you forget why you started and it won't be yours anymore. But yeah, you're right, I think when I have an idea to do something, I get so excited, or like it's the same feeling as when you're sort of on hold for a role, yes, and you're like, oh, ndas, yeah, I want to tell everyone you know it's that same feeling and I've got to.
Speaker 2:I don't know where I learned this. I heard this and it's not my original idea, but I heard it once and it really stuck with me Don't announce your plans until the ball is really rolling or until you think it's ready to receive some feedback.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, don't announce your plans, because with this I had this idea and I didn't tell anyone. I think I told Nick Launchbury. But if I started telling people, especially like all my acting peers and filmmaker peers if I started telling people, then I was worried that people would start being like taking ownership of it too soon themselves as the recipient of this product and going well, it should be like you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. And I think if you take on all that feedback too early, they can become creative blocks.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and even now I'm still really careful with what feedback I do sort of take on. It's that thing where it's like I know I can self-analyze, but I really appreciate that you care enough to give me feedback because, you know it's. It's such a really lovely thing for them to do absolutely but you must have gotten used to that in drama school as well absolutely because I'm in my own echo chamber where I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm out here doing this on my own, yeah, and going that was good work, and not hearing really any feedback because I'm so isolated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely think that drama school was super helpful at desensitising you to feedback. It does definitely give you a thick skin when you have to do it every day, and every single day is like I know I'm going to get looked at and analysed and picked apart for my benefit. But it's not comfortable in the moment. No, no know, I'm going to get looked at and analyzed and picked apart for my benefit. Yeah, but it's not comfortable in the moment.
Speaker 1:No, no, and sometimes you know you're having an off day or you haven't prepared because you're a bit tired.
Speaker 2:And you're in front of your peers Yep, and it's happening and they're all watching. You receive this information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it definitely makes you, I think, also more generous to other actors at least from my perspective, because everyone is at different stages and has different things they need to work on, and it's never just a straight upward trajectory. Everybody's doing peaks and valleys and plateaus and all that kind of stuff. Nobody is above criticism in that environment. No.
Speaker 1:And you just don't know when it's going to be your turn to have an amazing day and do great work, or when it's going to be your turn to have an amazing day and do great work, or when it's going to be your turn to be torn a new one. Yeah, that definitely keeps you humble.
Speaker 2:I think yeah. So you wrote Dragging the Chain and you've just written your own feature, your first feature.
Speaker 1:You've kind of gone through this journey of like trying out so many different things right like music, acting, directing and writing yeah, so I never had one specific thing yeah that I was like oh, I have to just do that, and I guess maybe like the closest thing to it would have been music, and that was that was purely because I'd been exposed to it for so long. You know, starting at three it's like a long times, um yeah but I I think I always resented when people would tell me that I had to do one thing.
Speaker 1:I think I got to choose something, yeah it got particularly hard, obviously, as you you get, you know, towards the end of school, because there's some really logical, reasonable questions of like yeah how are? You gonna make money yeah, you can't just be hopping around too much like at some are you going to make money?
Speaker 2:What are you going to do? You can't just be hopping around too much At some point. We've got to kind of narrow it down to a couple of things at least.
Speaker 1:You know and like, there's a natural desire to want to categorise what kind of artist you are right that I noticed when I made Dragging the Chain. People stopped calling me an actor, they started calling me a filmmaker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, calling me an actor, they started calling me a filmmaker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, it's like that's great because I love being called a filmmaker.
Speaker 2:You guys better not call me a podcaster.
Speaker 1:I'm an actor, yeah, still an actor yeah, it's like you know, and that's a natural thing to want to do is go like oh, that person's doing this thing, so that's that's what they they are yeah and I think in some settings that's super helpful, like if I'm going to a networking event for film. It's not particularly helpful for me to go up to a producer or you know any industry person and go oh, I'm Virginia and I'm a musician, actor, writer, producer, like the list of things. They just go. What?
Speaker 2:are you Like? What are you hoping to find? I know what you mean. Like professionally, it does really help. Like that was something for me when I started, just being sure of myself and just introducing myself as an actor. It was a very sudden shift. People's perception of me was he's an actor and they believed me. And. I'm just lying. I'm not anymore. I'm just lying, I'm not anymore. I'm not really.
Speaker 1:But like, I think what I've kind of learnt is that I am allowed to pivot at any time. Yes and like, just because I've spent, you know, four years at drama school and another four years working in industry doesn't mean I have to exclusively do acting. Like I can actually decide you know what right now I want to produce, or I want to direct, or, you know and I. That's so freeing to me to go.
Speaker 2:I think it's a fairly contemporary idea though, yeah, but also necessary. Yeah, because to be in this industry now, you have to be multi-hyphenate, and it's it's only going to work in your favor, anyway. Yeah. But all your experiences have allowed you this freedom to sort of hop around and today I'm a director. But I'm a good director because I'm an actor and I'm a good creative because I'm a musician.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and I'm a good filmmaker because I'm a storyteller- yeah. And I write stories. You know what I mean. Like it's a package, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think, like feeling like you can't pursue something because you're an actor or you're this kind of person or that kind of person. It just holds you back from things that could be really enjoyable. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if I had have told myself well, no, I can't make a film because I haven't trained at film school and I I've never made a film, really apart from uni. Yeah, what a horrible shame that would be if I had have said but that's not what I am, it's not what I do, yeah, yeah you know and leaving that door open, allowing myself to kind of be be flexible and be just intuitive about what it is that feels good for me at that time, yeah, whatever that is, and we're lucky that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever that is.
Speaker 2:And we're lucky. I think we're so lucky that you know this is a privileged thing, but like we are lucky to be able to act upon our creative impulses and make a choice like that. Yeah. We're so lucky, but it is what has guided us in this direction. And you know we're not making money, but we are fulfilled. Yeah, you know, and I clean houses other, you know that's my bread and butter yep and I make a little bit of money from commercials but you know it's.
Speaker 2:You can't rely on that yeah but I'm I found something that I just get so much fulfillment from, and I don't get to do it all the time. Yeah, like I rarely get to do it, but I wake up every day and I think about acting and I think about you know what my peers are doing, and I'm just like it's constantly in my head. Yeah, and I couldn't be happier like I get to act maybe once every two months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so real, but I'm an actor every day and I feel so happy about that, you know we were talking a little bit earlier, off off camera, about anxiety and feeling like sometimes you know you, you are a person that does things, and sometimes you're a person that talks about doing things yeah, and I've definitely been both me too um and I.
Speaker 1:Are you familiar with the fig tree analogy from okay? It is basically talking about this woman who's sitting at the bottom of a fig tree and she sees like her life spread out before her and all of the different things she could be are these, these figs at the ends of each branch, but she can't make a decision about which one she wants to be, and so they all plop off the tree and rot and die at her feet, right oh yeah and I remember I was just having this moment where I was like I I feel paralyzed by too many options and like there's so many things I want to do and I just don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:And I remember saying this to my brother and he was like man, fuck that fig tree, eat all the figs. You know you can do it all that's bullshit like yeah you don't have to just define yourself by one specific thing you can actually eat all the figs. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah you know yeah and and that waiting is is not gonna achieve anything you know it's not gonna make me feel good and it's not.
Speaker 2:Figs will go rotten exactly.
Speaker 1:They'll go rotten regardless. You can either enjoy them while they're here or you can let them go.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it kind of makes me think about the, the, the paralysis that I felt from from sort of allowing the anxieties of of pursuing something get in the way of actually taking action. Yeah, like I was saying in the kitchen, like with music, like I played music for years and I played cover gigs for years and it was very lucrative and I busked and it was like so fun and so exciting and it was like I loved it so much. But the dream was always to write my own music. But I was always blocked by comparison and I would look at the bands that I adore and I would say, well, they've already written all the good songs. They're already, they're already doing it. Like what am I going to contribute to this world?
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, and I and I'll try to write stuff and I'll just be like it's unfinished so of course it's crap and because I hadn't really pushed through and let it, let it evolve, and I would look at these other bands, but it's not what they're doing and I'll just and and just give up on it. Yeah, and I never pursued it and the figs went rotten you know, but thank god I, like, was able to transcend those things and just do it anyway and actually take action with this acting thing.
Speaker 2:I just didn't do it with some of the other avenues that I really, really wanted to pursue, but it you know, those doors aren't closed. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:No, and I think like something that I talk about with my brother. A lot is the fear of cringe and how debilitating that is because everything is cringe until it works, and I think giving yourself the permission to do something poorly is so freeing because, you really don't know where those songs could have gone.
Speaker 1:Or you know, if I had have shut down every idea I ever had before I wrote it, then I wouldn't have the films that I have now and like to be seen as trying. I think, particularly in Australia, is such a deeply embarrassing thing. But it's so worthwhile to endure that embarrassment, to endure that cringe, for the sake of trying something new, because you don't know until you give it a shot what could come of it and how good it could be.
Speaker 2:It's so true, the fear of cringe man. It's so real. And it's another reason why I try not to announce my plans. Because if I announce my plans to anyone, I find their initial reaction is but what if this happens? Or what if you don't make it? Or what if this? And, yeah, you're already feeling that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you don't give it a go, like, hey, of course it could all turn to shit, it could all fail. But you know, people have their best interests at heart and they're saying it because they don't want you to feel those feelings, they don't want you to go through the failure. Yeah, but you just won't start if you lean into those anxious feelings.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and the starting is the thing right, yeah. Like I'm so bad at trying to plan too much Like we were talking about with you know, lauren's episode feeling like I've always been the girl who's like sitting there meticulously making the one teapot the entire time and constantly trying to make whatever I'm doing perfect yeah and I really had to learn to let go of that once I left drama school in particular because I was like well, if every gig I ever do has that much pressure, I'm gonna quit, like I, I won't enjoy it.
Speaker 1:And one of the biggest things I learnt from drama school about acting was tension will kill it every single time. Mental tension physical tension, vocal tension, it is like the root of every problem. And the second that you have tension. You can hear it, you can feel it, you can see it Other actors in the room can feel it Like it is such a killer and I was finding that I was putting so much pressure on myself that I wasn't able to be present with the other actors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wasn't able to be present with the script. I wasn't, I wasn't. I was so fixated on like am I being perfect? That I wasn't being generous to the other artists in the room yeah and that killed it too.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, you know, I I look back at some of those really early film projects that I did and I'm like man, if only you just accepted that, like, not everything you're going to do is going to be the highlight of your career yeah I actually think probably those projects would have been way better than they were if I just took the pressure off and went let's relax and see what I can do and play around rather than focusing on on feeling like you need it to be perfect the very first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what I started to feel too. I think that's why I feel so relaxed on a set now, because, yeah, I just don't know what's going to happen and I just don't't have any control over it. And yes, of course, I do all the homework and you, you're a professional, so you put all that work in beforehand. But at the end of the day, once you, once you're there, you, you just you trust the people around you and you let it go and you know it's not going to be perfect, but you're going to capture something magic yeah, do you?
Speaker 2:know what I mean. If, if you're free from those, from those inhibitions, do you know Absolutely?
Speaker 1:But, yeah, like it's having the freedom to play around and the connection with the other actor in the room is what makes a scene. And I think that you know I'm so grateful that I did so much acting before I came to directing, because I think that it really changed the way I would have if I'd started in directing before acting. I think I would not be anywhere near as good. I think my ethos also maybe this comes from being less experienced as a director, but I've always felt like for me as a director and I've never felt like this as an actor. But as a director, I always feel like I'm the least important person in the room, like my job is essentially to steer everyone in doing their incredible creative work in a specific direction, and I'm not like some overlord that knows exactly what the right thing to do is at all times, and that's why I love working with actors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so lucky that I had the team I did on Dragon Chain, because they're all coming at it from really different viewpoints and have different language for things and different you know just ways of attacking a script, but I hope that I was able to give them the space to tell me if they wanted to try something, to feel like they shouldn't be scared to talk to me or to talk to camera or talk to anyone on set.
Speaker 2:It's way too much pressure for you to feel like you have to offer all of the ideas. That's why we choose the actors that we choose, because we want people and, as an actor, you want to be bringing your own ideas to the set and, as a director, you're curating an open dialogue between you and your actors.
Speaker 1:And I think I'm sure you've experienced this too, Like I've been on many sets where especially the bigger ones, where you kind of feel a bit scared to say, oh actually, I've got an idea.
Speaker 1:And like and it's like I never want to make actors feel like that. I know they probably do anyway because it's such a, you know, funny environment to like be in front of people. But I really try when I'm directing to open up that dialogue enough that if an actor's like I hate that line, I'll be like brilliant, why? What is it that you don't like about it? What can we do to change it?
Speaker 1:And sometimes you know, like I think there was a line or two that like Jude had or Kate had that they're like I don't really know about this one and I was like nah, like that's important for these reasons, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to make sure the story is going to get told.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then I went okay, but like what is it exactly that's feeling weird about it? Because, even though I might need you to say those specific words for a reason that's you wouldn't know, because it's going to be important in the edit or whatever, um, what is it that's feeling off? Let's talk about it, let's work through it and going probably much to my beautiful ad's dismay going we will hold until we work this out.
Speaker 1:You know like I think the job of a director is to look at the actors that you have assembled or to look at the crew that you have assembled and read the room and go. What does this person want? Because on Dragging the Chain, there were moments where, like I could see, Kate had something and she didn't want to talk about it and I was like brilliant let's just go Capture it, you know.
Speaker 1:And like, see what it is Other times with her or other actors. You're like okay, I can see that this isn't quite working. How am I going to approach it? What? What do they need? Do they need like a little bit of a physical reset? Like, do we need to talk it out? Do we need to just do it a couple more times? It's your job as the director to assess that for the actors. And I think I feel strongly about rehearsal personally. Um, because I think it just gives everybody the freedom to know what they're walking into on set. But I know a lot of actors don't like to rehearse, so then I would go. Well, rehearsal is important to me, but if I'm working with an actor who really doesn't want to rehearse, so then I would go well, rehearsal is important to me, but if I'm working with an actor who really doesn't want to rehearse the lines, maybe we're not rehearsing the lines in our rehearsal.
Speaker 1:Maybe we're talking through what we're feeling in a scene or what actions we're using, or you know, we're just talking generally about the script, yeah, but familiarizing ourself with the space or with the other creatives or with how we talk about acting, and I think, yeah, it's very much a job of tailoring your approach to whoever you've got in the room and so that you can get the best out of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure it made me think. You know, I was talking before about feeling intimidated by directors or crew and I realise I think sometimes directors have felt intimidated by their actors.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And scared to ask for things or to try things. And I think that's where it's the confidence thing of building that relationship and understanding the conversation and facilitating a really fluid dialogue. You know. And facilitating a really fluid dialogue, you know, because I've at times had sort of newer directors that have felt they wanted to ask me for something right, and I could see I'm like, just what is it? Just come and talk to me about it, you know. Or they feel the need to move on from a scene really quickly because they don't want to waste my time.
Speaker 2:I'm like, mate, I would do 100 takes of this happily you know, if we can get some variety, if we can discover something that we can't. Even we couldn't talk about what's going to happen, because we might figure something out on the seventh take, do you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It might just happen and you might not even notice until the edit. Yeah, where you're scrubbing through that footage and you're going whoa, yeah, I didn't even know that happened, you know, but yeah, I, I my my message to directors is like I just want people to feel comfortable to have this have these conversations with, with you know both ways. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:like absolutely yeah and I think the other part of that that you know feeds into that fear is, I think, really that that ability to admit that maybe you don't know what it is that you want or you don't really know what you're doing in that moment, or that you are unsure as to where to go, like I think I love.
Speaker 2:I love it when a director comes up to me and says I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know, what to do.
Speaker 2:You got any ideas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, thank you so much for just being honest and not trying to pretend that you know everything. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Because it is a collaborative process where we're all trying to work out how to put together this puzzle. Yeah, think that sometimes newer directors can feel a lot of pressure yeah to have all the answers yes and you don't need them like it? You really don't. In fact, most of the actors that I know don't necessarily want to be told outright exactly what to do.
Speaker 1:They want to have a discussion about it and and find it together yeah and so if you aren't sure as a director, I think it's such a gift to give an actor to say like I'm, yeah, I don't. How are you feeling about it? Like what, I don't really know where to go from here. Is there anything you want to play with? Like let's talk it through? Yeah. You know what are we feeling, what actions are we using? Like yeah.
Speaker 2:I've, I've had that are giving it a go. It's awesome, you know, and I'm giving it a go too. This is not a criticism, it's just something that I've noticed that before we've even done the first take, they are talking through the whole scene and then you're going to do this and then you're going to do this, and then you're going to say this yeah, okay, block the scene. Yeah, that's different, that's different. But like really over explaining, and at this point you're going to feel this and and you do, you know, you're going to yell at her here or whatever. And I just, I just think like, okay, so we're not even going to do, do a first take and see what happens in that first take and then be like, oh, that was interesting, that was interesting. And then mold it. But the best directors that I've worked with, like on this TV series the other day or the other week now she just introduced herself she's like all right, have fun.
Speaker 2:And I was like okay, I mean I've already done the audition, I know what's happening in the scene. The ADs explained the action, the blocking and that first take. Obviously we're not going to use the first take. It was a complicated scene with lots of extras. Obviously the first take is not going to be the one. And she didn't talk to me for about four takes and then she came up to me and she goes yeah, nice, nice, I like what you're doing there, let's try this. And then she just left me alone for another four takes and I was just playing and I felt so free and I felt like she trusted me and that would have really thrown me as an earlier actor, because I was so used to having my hand held from before we even did a take.
Speaker 2:I mean, she's a bloody world-class director, having my hand held from before we even did a take, you know. I mean, she's a bloody world-class director. Yeah, but she felt it just shows you know. She felt she really trusted us and she felt very comfortable to come up and be like I love that man, let's try this thing now and just left me alone, and every now and then I would just look over after a take and she'd be like keep going with that, keep playing with that. I was like cool, I'm creating over here, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think when you're talking about the younger, more experienced directors, over-explaining I think that comes from the same place of perfectionism and wanting to get it right. And anxiety, yeah, and going like I really want to make sure I'm giving them enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it comes from a good place, for sure.
Speaker 1:That. It's like I think some less experienced directors can forget that we know how to do our jobs just as much as the DOP does, or you know the lighting designer or the costume designer, Like you've cast us for a specific reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that goes beyond what we look like. It's actually like what we can bring to the room, and what we can bring to the room is those interpretations. And if you don't give the space for an actor to breathe and and actually try some stuff before you start having an opinion about it. That makes it really hard for us to do our jobs. Yeah, for sure, which I think is why my entry point is always take some acting classes and be in front of a camera.
Speaker 2:It's such good advice, well, find some way to understand the actor's perspective. Yeah, and like you know, that's why I started this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Seriously. Hey watch this podcast.
Speaker 2:I was like I wish I could say this to a director, and well, a new director, you know.
Speaker 1:And I think it's just interesting, though, like having been on both sides of it now. I have empathy for both sides because I'm like it is, both of them are so hard, they're such hard jobs so complicated, yeah, you're just riddled with anxiety.
Speaker 2:But if we can just learn that we're all on the same team.
Speaker 1:Exactly and find that connection you know, um, even if it is like, you know, when you're on that big set and you're, maybe you're only getting those moments of connection at the beginning and then every now and then, when they need a note, like even just the little thing of like giving a thumbs up or just you know, having those moments of connection is really important because it gives everyone that sense of safety and that sense of like oh, I can actually, I have something to bring here and if there's a problem, they'll let me know or I can come to them.
Speaker 1:It's like, ultimately, we're all in it to make something really good, and trusting each other to do that means that the work will be better in the in the you know the long run, and everyone will enjoy themselves more because they feel like they're able to actually you know work to their skillset and bring something really beautiful to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Okay. Where can we find you on socials?
Speaker 1:You can find me on Instagram at Ginny spelled G-I-N-N-I with underscores in between all of those letters, Just to complicate it Just to complicate it, my film Dragging the Chain will be out on YouTube at some point soon. Yeah, I will update you.
Speaker 2:And yeah, that's really it, hell yeah, well, all the best with where is it Copenhagen? Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been so great.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for having me. It's been so much fun.
Speaker 2:This is awesome and thanks for putting up with my very husky little voice and my coughing.
Speaker 1:Don't be silly, it's totally fine, yeah.
Speaker 2:This flu has gone on. Well, it's not the flu now, but this sickness has gone on for like five weeks and I'm Poor thing. Yeah, anyway, thank you so much, man. Yes, how good was that? Seriously, we could have chatted for hours. In fact we did. Even after this chat, I think we chatted for like another hour just about acting and filmmaking in the kitchen. So yeah, I don't know, we just love to talk about this stuff.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening, guys. Make sure you hit, subscribe, follow, share this episode on your story, tell your friends, come on, guys, let's get this out there. And hey, if you really like what I'm doing here and if this podcast fires you up creatively and you'd like to support me and what I'm doing here, you can do so by signing up to the Patreon for as little as $5 a month at patreoncom slash gopluckyourselfpod. Thanks to everyone that's already signed up. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much. Theme music is by the one and only Nick Gunn. That's my cousin. You can check him out on SoundCloud at soundcloudcom slash Nick Gunn. I'll be back next week chatting to another very talented filmmaker and very old friend of mine, kellen Vanstone. Make sure you don't miss that episode. Thanks so much for listening. Guys, stay positive, stay united. Reach out to a friend that's a long way from home. Give them some love, thank you.