Go Pluck Yourself: The Actorâs Pursuit
Go Pluck Yourself! Because the Hollywood cavalry is not on its way to pluck you from obscurity like the proverbial claws of a claw machine. Only you are responsible for your little dent in this industry. No one is coming to pluck you out of the crowd â You have to pluck yourself.
Join actor Chris Gun as he chats to his creative pals about life as an actor navigating this wonderful industry.
These are the conversations that actors and filmmakers have between takes, between shoot dates, whilst waiting for their next gig. An insight into what life is really like for a creative on their way âupâ.
This is Go Pluck Yourself - The Actorâs Pursuit
Presented by Chris Gun
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Go Pluck Yourself: The Actorâs Pursuit
Ep 7: Finding Your Voice & Kicking Down Doors with Writer/Director Calen Vanstone
đ§ Listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
âśď¸ Watch on YouTube: youtube.com/@gopluckyourselfpod
â¤ď¸ Support the show: patreon.com/gopluckyourselfpod
Follow me on Instagram & TikTok:
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My IMDb: https://m.imdb.com/name/nm8690472/
Follow Calen on Instagram: @catsordeathfilms
Check out his IMDb: https://m.imdb.com/name/nm4471043/
Watch his debut short film, âGregâ: vimeo.com/848995139
This week I sat down with one of my oldest and closest friends, Calen Vanstone. A director, writer, filmmaker, and someone Iâve known since the beginning of my filmmaking career. Weâve been on parallel creative journeys for more than half our lives, and itâs been incredible watching him finally bring his stories to the screen.
Calenâs short film Greg (vimeo.com/848995139), a raw and moving piece about the personification of anxiety, has already made its way into festivals, and heâs now gearing up for his second feature. In this conversation, we go deep on what held us back in our early years, the dangers of waiting for permission to create, and why sometimes you just have to ignore the noise and make the thing anyway.
We talk about mental health, vulnerability, and how to keep creating without falling into the trap of people-pleasing or chasing external validation. Calen shares why he believes film school should be a place to fail, why failure is essential for growth, and how heâs learned to turn stubbornness into strength.
If youâve ever struggled with procrastination, self-doubt, or feeling like you donât deserve a voice as an artist, this episode is for you.
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đľ Theme music by Nick Gun: soundcloud.com/nickgun
Hi, I'm Callan Vanstone and you should go pluck yourself.
Speaker 2:Hello, welcome to Go Pluck Yourself the Actor's Pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn and I'm really excited to share this episode with you guys today. My guest today is my very good friend, very old friend, callan Vanstone. He's a director, writer, filmmaker, you know, and I've known Callan since I was 16 years old, which is more than half of my life, which is kind of crazy to think about. But Callan's always been there for me. You know, he's not just a fellow creative, he's been a very good friend of mine for a long, long time. He's got me through a lot of very difficult times and I'll always be grateful for the friendship that he's, you know that we've had. But aside from the really good friendship that we have, he and I kind of have been on this creative journey, you know, alongside each other for the last, you know, 16 or 17 years or whatever it is. We both went to film school around the same time. That's where we kind of really connected and ever since then we've just I feel like we've both been very supportive of each other's endeavors and I'm really excited to see he's finally getting his own ideas made. Obviously, he's been writing for forever but he's finally making some films. He's just released a really beautiful short film, greg, which is about the personification of anxiety, which you can watch in the link below I'll make sure I put a link down there and he's just finished shooting his first feature film I think that was last year or earlier this year which I'm really excited to see. I don't know too much about it, but I'm very excited for that one. And he's about to go into production on his second feature film. So crazy ambitious guy Like it's so exciting that he's actually getting his ideas made. He's pulling together these beautiful crews and it's just really inspiring to see and I'm extremely proud of the guy.
Speaker 2:We kind of talk about the things that kind of held us back and you know the things that were in our control, that we sort of of used to hold ourselves back, to procrastinate actually getting started in this industry. You know it's two white dudes with microphones in a small room, so it gets a little bit mental, healthy, forgive us for that. That's who we are, that's what we do. But yeah, if you're creative, if you're just starting out in this industry, if you're facing some of those, um, creative blocks or those, uh, insecurities, I think I think you might get a lot out of this episode, coming from a couple of guys that waited way too long to get started but are finally giving it a good push now. So, yeah, I think it's a good one.
Speaker 2:If you like what I'm doing here, please support the podcast by following or subscribing wherever you're listening or watching, leave a comment, share the episode, all that sort of stuff. You know, the more engagement you guys give this podcast, you know it really helps the algorithm and gets the podcast in front of the right people. So thanks so much for all the support and all the engagement, and I love hearing your comments and your feedback. Before we get started, please give his production company a follow on Instagram at Cats or Death Films. That's Cats or Death Films, if you know. You know and you don't know, but anyway, it's a long episode so we'll just get into it. Please enjoy my excellent chat with my very good friend, callan Vanstone.
Speaker 1:Man. I came here prepared. I put beard oil in my beard.
Speaker 3:That's a good place to do it. That's a good start. Yeah, does it look like I've got stuff in it? I was going to say your beard is good. Is it glistening? Is it glistening for the camera? Do you ever watch Flight of the Conchords? What is it? You don't know? Flight of the Conchords? I'm joking, thank God, yeah, when Brett. Your beard is good, fantastic, beautiful. Your beard is good man.
Speaker 1:Yeah my beard. Thank you, no, really really good man. It's really nice to be kind of uncomplicatingly good for the most part, because this thing of like you have to be brooding to kind of make good art. You have to be suffering, and David Lynch talks about. He said something about this sort of like. When I'm suffering I can't do anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So like it's the bit when I'm clear of that and then I can think, and then I when you're reflecting on it and reflecting on it. Yeah, I remember like I went to this silver chair gig.
Speaker 1:They played at the Clipsall back in 2005, or whatever and then people like heckling, going like to play like the old stuff yeah, but people like heckling, going like to play like the old stuff yeah, but the angle of the hecklers was like we liked it better when you were depressed, yeah, and I'm like I understood it enough to be like that's fucking horrible. Yeah, how, why would you want that on anyone? Yeah, and then it felt like getting into the arts and stuff and it's like it felt like the message was like you're one or the other and and geniuses that were like the sufferers and the kafkas that would only exist at night and you know, like how that gets dangerously kind of perpetuated and idealised and sort of fetishised.
Speaker 1:Now in this last, probably like six, seven months since we're writing this new thing- it's like the best writing I've ever done and it's been probably the best mental health space I've been in, probably of my adult life, probably the best it health space I've been in, probably of my adult life, probably the best it's ever been. Again, it's not saying it's all high.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the lows, I know how to manage them and I acknowledge them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're safe to be in, be steady, but then otherwise.
Speaker 1:But it's, you know you've got ebbs and flows, I know. I understand that, but they're like you know how to return to the baseline, yeah, yeah, but I'm, you know, and this is by far the most personal thing I've ever done yeah, and I think it's good to create from, like, having a bit of a chip on your shoulder and stuff like that, something to kind of prove in what you want to say, but that you also have to be in the dark place of the thing that you're doing While you write it. Yeah, well, I think I mean it's like a lot of it kind of there's so much for so long has been like once you're good, like do not look back, like don't, like you're good, you're good, oh, okay. Just don't just keep the blinders on and go and live in that and don't reflect, and then you miss all this growth. It's the like, and that's what I'm saying before is like. I'm not saying that I'm like, okay, I'm good now, so I go into a dark place to write.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'm looking back at it safely. I mean, I wouldn't dare do any of it if I wasn't in a good place.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But, like I said, I think I really draw on like this thing, like I said, this idea of kind of having a chip on your shoulder and, like you know, like I wasn't particularly encouraged or supported at film school and I was obviously still just trying to find me supported at film school and I was obviously still just trying to find me, but ever since then it's it's like, well, I've got to prove them wrong which?
Speaker 1:at least that drove me for a little while, that kind of pride thing. But that's evolved into like well, I wasn't the chosen one, so my voice had to be earned, in a sense right and so then it was like there's a friction and it's like it needs to be made to get this voice out. And it involves more and it's like, oh, I've just got things I want to say because I'm so wary of filmmakers who like start out, and they are really well received straight out the gate.
Speaker 3:Do you think that actually happens though?
Speaker 1:I think it's that thing of like. Sometimes, like say, you go to film school and then you make something and you kind of don't know quite what you're doing yeah which you shouldn't by that point really and then people go oh wow, great amazing yeah and then that's a high you'd want to chase. I just don't think school is the place to like succeed.
Speaker 1:I think the school is the place to fail of course well, no, but I don't think it's, but I think I don't think it's obvious all the time and I don't think teachers encourage it maybe as much as I feel like they should but second year was like gloves are off and it was like I made this just super weird kind of lynchy Eraserhead was right in my brain and I was like no, I want to chase that feeling Because I can.
Speaker 1:I'm not in the industry and teachers hated it. My auntie at the screening went up to one of my teachers and been like oh, he was like proud of Kelly doing this thing and he was like to my auntie at the screening Really Fuck you. But I was like I really had. I was really locked into this thing of like it felt bad but I was getting it anyway and they weren't seemingly approving of my choices anyway. So I might as well follow that and learn from failing, because I've got the safety net. I've paid for this place. There's all these resources.
Speaker 1:You know, it's the same thing I talk to a lot of actors about, about like when they graduate from acting school and I was like do a fringe show, yeah, and like not saying like hope it bombs, but I'm'm like if it does, it's an amazing learning experience. You get the spectrum of here are all the resources, here are your family and friends. Come and go. Well done, they're encouraging and that's lovely. But now go and do a thing where you've got no safety net, and I think it really then teaches you, like, how passionate you are, how much you give a shit about this thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sucked. But underneath all of that, there was this little jewel of a feeling that I want to keep and hold, and so, yeah, I think I just have an opinion and I don't know if it's just me built on, like, built on the fact that that was what it was like for me. Yeah, but I think you just should have to fight a little bit for your idea, because in the process of that fight, your idea strengthens and it's like's like, you know, when you talk to people, you like read the script, share a script with someone, and it's like the best thing you can do is get someone to be like pulled apart, and then you have to either justify those decisions and then, through talking about justifying it, you strengthen your idea or yeah, they go, oh shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, I've missed that thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, go back. Yeah, I've missed that thing. Yeah, yeah, go back. Yeah, I think in those earlier years, you know around the film school era, and you know I was like 19, didn't really know what I exactly, what pathway I wanted to take. I knew I wanted to be in film, but I mean I didn't really stick around in it for very long.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like we both went left into I mean, you were already doing music but we both went into the music thing for a bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we did, yeah, yeah, but there was something strange about that time, like I was really looking outward for sort of approval from other people, yeah, and I mean it might have been drilled into us by the sort of contact that we had had with the industry Telling a student that their work doesn't count or isn't good enough. It kind of destroys the entire learning process because it's subjective, Like who cares what the end product is Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's about what's your journey. I'm learning something.
Speaker 3:I've got an idea. I'm going to make it. It might be good, it might be bad, but that's irrelevant, because I'm learning something and I've got an experience working with other crew and writing something, and I'm I've got an experience working with other crew and writing something and directing something and showing my work to an audience. That whole process is is just a learning process and I don't I can't really justify grading it. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Because it's but it's also like like I hate the way a lot of industry people, if you get them to like read something, they approach it like a very unfortunately, often very egotistically and kind of like. There's a little bit of like well, I'm going to tell you what to shoot, because I'm you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then a bit of posturing, but also like they come from it like, okay, well, I'm going to tell you what's good and bad about it, and it's like if I ever read anyone's thing or watch anyone's stuff, it's anyone's stuff. Is like, just quickly before I look at it, what was your intention?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you sort of you don't talk about the art, you talk about the artist, you know, and even the process and the kind of development process it's like talk to the artist and go like what are you trying to do with this? Like what's the most important thing that you say with this, that you want to say with this film? Well, I think here are some craft things. I think here are some craft things. Here's maybe some ways you can structure or whatever Things that are like proven somewhat that help with storytelling. Otherwise, it's like, you know, do you feel like you've got this thing out of it? And this is the stuff that I do for myself, I try to do. I think that's like the biggest crime in this kind of in educating art is all right, make a thing, all right, we'll talk about let's critique the painting at the end of this and we'll give it a B or an A. Anyway, I just I feel strongly about it because I just I hate any artists being put off at an early stage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean you're not just working with technical filmmaking. Yeah, you're working with potential artists yeah, and ideas and ideas because you know you're working with potential artists yeah. You know ideas and ideas because you know we're learning production as well. Yeah, and there's do's and don'ts oh, for sure but then in terms of directing and writing yeah and editing choices and, and you know, just any sort of filmmaking creative choices. You're nurturing an artist there yeah, we do it.
Speaker 1:We do it in preschool, like we do it for babies and children. We don't constrict them with like results driven sort of. That's the thing you need to nurture this yeah, openness and all right, just go play and we'll see what happens. Yeah, maybe go left, yep, maybe pick? Yep, great yeah.
Speaker 3:Otherwise hands off, and especially at a younger age, when we were at film school you know straight out of high school, kind of lost out in the big world, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was the thing before they were struggling to get people in for like acting schools and stuff. They would all. They used to say people would try to go in straight after school.
Speaker 1:They'd go no, no, no go travel for a year and just do some shit and kind of explore life a bit, yeah, and then come back and now we'll pull it apart, but I would probably almost say the same thing yeah, to do any art. It's like go. I mean it's easier said than done, travel money and whatever, but yeah, go have some experiences.
Speaker 3:It's kind of interesting that you and I both basically took about 10 years off actually following through In a public way. Yeah, that's right. I think we kind of we had this dream a long time ago, both of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, a few artistic dreams, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And we both sort of had little moments of like going for it, going for it or tiptoeing around certain things, but also just living life and making mistakes and being very separate from any sort of artistic world at times as well.
Speaker 1:I'm speaking for myself there, no, no, no, I agree, I'm with you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But now it seems that we're both finally just going. I'm going to ignore the noise and just do the thing that.
Speaker 1:I want to do. I think we both subconsciously, and then that blurred into a bit of consciousness. We both were like we're ready now.
Speaker 3:I think so, yeah, and I think we both did. It might be a thing of getting through your 20s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, because I made a choice but I didn't realise I made that choice until a bit later, to like kind of spend the majority of my twenties watching other people succeed and fail and learning that way and I think it was a part of me that was like I don't think I deserve a voice yet in a in a way, even though there was stuff I could tell.
Speaker 1:but I was you know, I wasn't an experience chaser, I was sort of like a lot of my youth, a lot of my 20s. I was watching other people do that. Like high school was pretty tame for me.
Speaker 1:A lot of stuff came a little bit later and then it suddenly like around funnily enough, like when I met you and that sort of extended group was when I was like, oh okay, I think I'm going to play catch up for a bit, and I think that bled into my early 20s and I think the music scene was almost a version of doing that, because you're out at night and you're playing, you're meeting people and whatever, but I was always writing. So I've never not been writing, I've been.
Speaker 2:so there's as far as like yeah, unmade things it's endless.
Speaker 1:There is so much, there's such a massive. So by the time I made greg the other a couple years ago yeah, it was like on paper or publicly it was my first. It was my debut short yeah, I was like this is like my 30th to me.
Speaker 1:You're not saying it was perfect, but yeah, it was a very conscious thing to sit and watch and but I also realized that that was also me going. My voice is ready and it's a bit more refined. That's why I kind of like I only sort of really did this like greg that short, and now I'm like straight to a feature. I was like I'm oh, I'm ready, you know.
Speaker 3:When you say ready, I mean I know what you, I know, I know you're saying like Not perfection, I'm not mixing up with perfection. Right. So what is it Cause? I also get the impression that there might be a sense of and I think you mentioned this before a sense of feeling like do I have the right to express myself or send a message to an audience? Do I? Yeah, probably Do you know what I mean, I think yeah, I think there's a little bit like.
Speaker 1:I think the part of it that comes from the insecurity, anxiety thing of just like, you know, just feeling like I built that into my brain that I don't have, like I don't really deserve a voice in space that was so much of my twenties was like me fighting for air and I would do go to such great length to I would suffer some of the stuff I did for other people that I just go, god. I went so out of my way to do that for that person just seeking to be like, to be recognized. You know, going back before about where I'm at now, he's like that stuff is so done now, which is so good, and the standards I've set for myself. Now I like I'm so happy, you know that I've got there. But so I think there was a lot of like oh, what can I say? You know, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then what can I say? Because I haven't feel like I didn't do a lot, even though once I thought about it I was like, oh, I've done heaps, yeah. And then the thing of like, well, who will care?
Speaker 3:And who will, like I, think creatively.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Thinking about an audience and thinking about who would care. Yeah, like. So how do you get around that? Because I have my view on that, but I'm curious about yours.
Speaker 1:I think I mean one way is you just get so used to hearing like the wisdoms you get from other filmmakers who are just like, just fucking like. Let's do it like I just make it yes and that seems so like nothing, but it's like the rhythm of hearing that, like you hear it regularly. It's like you have to do it right, like I know, because you're asking me this question. What's your advice? And I can tell that you care about it. I can identify that the thing, this thing in here, needs to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that needs to override what other people who you think you're doing it?
Speaker 1:for yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Because we're so focused on the audience, but really you've got to do it for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then when people talk, you know you see people respond to. When filmmakers talk about like, oh, we don't really think about who it's for, we make it for us.
Speaker 2:And people go.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so obnoxious. Tarantino talks about it all the time. I make a film that I want to see. Yeah, yeah. But again it's like they're not ignorant to the fact that they're making something for an audience, but they go. I like this film. Yeah, I'm a human being. Yeah, like I'm alone. So if I like something, there's a pretty good chance that some other people will like it, and that's a beautiful thing to realise, it's very liberating for yourself.
Speaker 1:And then, like I guess the awareness that comes from that is going is recognising maybe how many people might like that thing. And then you go, and that's how you, I think, manoeuvre in the business.
Speaker 3:Well, the audience will find you. Yeah, even if it takes a while or even if it's a couple of people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think the people who, like you know, like musicians who do like super niche things, the point of kind of, I think what would be considered success is not how good it does or whatever it's them becoming aware of exactly, or more or less, how many people care about that thing and accepting that and loving that and going. I make this really fucking crazy. Weird jazz, metalcore, like fusion dance music. Yeah, I'm aware enough to know that that's not going to be played on like triple J. Yeah, but then I play this basement to like five, 10, 20 people and they love it and I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is the success.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think it's like so tough to get there internally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then you get there Because you have so many pressures to succeed.
Speaker 1:Well, that's all that also. Yeah, like all the messaging from the industry of, like the competitive funding thing, yeah, Because, again, of course, if you're going to make people compete for funding, subconsciously or consciously, you're going to probably make choices that you think they will approve of, which is not how art should ever be created. The business side of a thing, the business side of just having entertainment I'm sure there's people sick of just me saying like referring to this exclusively as art.
Speaker 3:That's how you get 20 Marvel films, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's like you know, I watch them and don't mind some of them, but like, and there's a place for those things obviously.
Speaker 1:Entertainment Mindless is never going to poo-poo that stuff. But when that's the main message, you get from the main funding bodies, that kind of competitive funding mindset. And then you're talking to some young filmmakers and again I do not blame them for a second, but it's like they're all talking about but where's your funding? You know, yeah, it's like the consistency of that message, that's what is considered success to them. It's like, oh, you got this much money from these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like greg, like so I was so proud of like making. Greg got into adelaide film festival and it was the only film that didn't have any like support you know, and I was so proud of that
Speaker 1:and I thought that might mean something more and it kind of didn't like. A few people got it. What do you mean? Oh, it was. I was really hoping that, because I still have that prescribed to that idea. It's the like, the ways that like, oh you, you made this thing for not a lot of money. Look how good it is for how little you had. That's really great. Or we'll give you a little bit more and look, let's see you expand on that, that sort of idea.
Speaker 1:Like two festivals. They were saying basically like, well, because they don't have funding is why we didn't accept it. Because they sort of see is like, if you're funded, if you're supported, then you're connected to this thing. And it's like if you get some funding from adelaide film festival, we can see, oh, you're connected to that film festival. And obviously, because so many festivals now it's very business-minded. So it's like, well, we can't see how you're going to bring attention to us. But it's like that messaging.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm glad that I'm stubborn in the way that I am. By going, you know that maybe you want to do it more. Again, that's me being stubborn, but as again it's like people who maybe don't have that same tenacity, sort of inbuilt tenacity that I have, I was like no wonder you know a lot of them would have, after they got received, what I received would have gone all right well I guess, seemingly the only way to get approved or, you know, granted permission to exist in this industry is like, well, I guess I have to get money and then they don't, maybe, and then they feel like they're nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I get so like affected by the idea of people with great ideas existing and not being approved because of the boxes they don't tick for other people. Yeah, yeah, like, really, genuinely fucking, like really kills me.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That people who are looking at purely at the numbers are the ones that approve. And this is not a new, you know statement that I'm not revelatory thing I'm making, but so I'm I'm glad, I'm very happy that I'm where I'm at with that in that sort of stubborn way, and glad I'm very happy that I'm where I'm at with that in that sort of stubborn way. And then this, like this next feature that I'm about to shoot, is again self-funded and I was like I'm going to establish my voice, I'm going to, you know, kick the door down. Yeah, and I think that was before I realized was a bit of what I was doing for all those years was a bit like I'm not going to ask for permission. You know, yeah, I'll take my time, I'll grow as a person, I'll have all these experiences, try and watch other people kind of learn from that, and then I'm going to, in my own way, do it when I'm ready. And so I think that idea of earning the voice sort of thing has evolved.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, like I said, I'm happy where it sits now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and especially when, in so many of the avenues that we are taking here, there are no official kind of hurdles that you need to take across to be called an artist, you know. And so when you're lost in that world as a young artist that doesn't really know how it works, hasn't really made anything yet, but you know, you want to, or you've got something in you that's this desire to create. So before you've made anything and you can't prove to the world that you are an artist, you seek validation from people that you feel are higher up than you. And then what happens is they sort of inherently just kind of shut you down?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're kind of gatekeeping in their own way, because you've got nothing to prove, but they're kind of holding on to a spot themselves Cause you've got nothing to prove, but they're kind of holding onto a spot themselves.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I know what you mean. Yes, there are. I mean it's a business and, like, filmmaking is a business, but at the same time, I think it's so important to hold onto the idea that you are also just an artist and a human and you should, if you've got something to create, just go and create it and forget the rules and forget the process and the you know the pathway that's going to appease the business, because it's not like.
Speaker 1:there's data that backs that up, the amount of things that have succeeded from someone's crazy ideas.
Speaker 1:But I think what art to me is is the thing in between.
Speaker 1:Everything backs that up, the amount of things that have succeeded from someone's crazy ideas, but I think what art to me is is the thing in between everything. So it's like the art is there's the artist, there's the thing they create, and then the audience. Though if you want to just limit it to like that little kind of bermuda triangle of yeah, you're starting conversation, so like I've shared a thing about me, you've accepted it, taken it in, relating it to whatever's going on with you, and then you've connected with me. Even if we don't ever talk, there's a connection here. So I was like that's for me is the art. Again, it's the thing in between, the beautiful kind of thing we can't touch the air in between. And the reason I think about it like that again is to remind myself of all the stuff that I put into the film and all the stuff that's received and then felt you know, yeah, and then we only look at the product or we only look at, well, how does the audience receive it? You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we only think about it in business terms or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the business thing cuts all that art, all that conversation out of it. It just looks at the polls, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's a weird concept to talk about because, particularly in this country and I think, going back to what you're saying about being an artist and looking for approvals this country has a major problem with recognising what artists do. Yeah, yeah, it's not the same overseas and I so hoped that, you know, covid was going to change that and everyone would sit in their living rooms and then going. We are kept alive in a lot of ways by the art that's been put out there. I mean, it's the way that I kind of view in a lot of respects, kind of Western, a lot of mainstream Western philosophy around art, filmmaking, where it's like they make films to make money and they hope they're good.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I think a lot of stuff particularly in places in Europe and stuff where they get what the process is. They're trying to make good stuff and hopefully it makes some money. And I think that's actually a risk worth taking.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, it's really funny. It's so interesting that like, are they really flogging that dead horse about superhero films? And then Anora wins the Oscar Right. Do you know what I mean? And then Sinners smashes All these years where they're saying oh, no one cares about horror.
Speaker 1:There's no market for it and it's like well, stranger Things is the biggest show on TV and Walking Dead and stuff and then, you just waited a couple more years and now that's like everywhere. And now every like celebrity is trying to make a horror film now, because it's the. Thing because they've finally accepted that people. That's what people want.
Speaker 3:But then that will go out of fashion.
Speaker 1:Oh, exactly, because it gets exploited and it won't be an original thing anymore.
Speaker 3:No, eventually it will again. Yeah, but you know superhero films, you know worked for a bit. And they're like that's what we're making. And then I see articles that are like Hollywood deciding that independent original ideas might actually have a place in this industry.
Speaker 1:That's what we grew up on. That Sean Baker win was like him winning that. It just destroyed me in the kind of this great way where I was like I was really sad and sort of almost depressed in a weird way, but not from like a bad thing, it was like almost, like it was such a confronting realisation that, oh fuck, maybe there is an opportunity for me, that there's someone that doesn't want to ever make Marvel films or anything you know, and stuff Again, not to shit on them, but like oh man, there's. And obviously his speech was like killed me.
Speaker 1:It was just this beautiful, you know, acknowledgement of independent theatre, of independent film, and that has sat with me, you know, ever since. And it's crazy that it's like it took. Yeah, it felt like it took so long because I felt like the industry was like he's always built on those people, because you know all the filmmakers start somewhere, you know, and suddenly then we're like seeing all these like foreign filmmakers quote unquote, foreign filmmakers blowing up and Parasite, winning, you know the other year and it's like wow, I think they're finally starting to get it and it's like it's proven.
Speaker 1:And then even just to it's like, it's proven, it's like again. And then just even just to look at Australia, it's like how we keep forgetting that our best time, our best time in our industry, was when we had, you know, the break of our ants and you know Gallipolis picking a hang of rock, whatever stuff that was doing well in general yeah. Underneath it. We had, you know, obviously you know the Mad Maxes and Turkey shoots All these like.
Speaker 1:I mean, you can have any opinion about it, but that was our most successful time People still in America talk about obviously you know Tarantino talks about that not quite Hollywood documentary is so good because it's acknowledging that this was actually a really strong time for us.
Speaker 1:It wasn't just this weird kind of thing that you have to kind of unearth. It was a really strong time. How do we keep forgetting about that? Yeah, and something happened in the 90s, I don't know what happened. We stopped kind of making like horror films, particularly. You see around like 93, 94, it sort of starts to die off and I don't know where we, I don't know what. And then it just never, has never seemed to come back with these exceptions of people, all these strong voices like the Philippi Brothers doing, you know.
Speaker 3:Well, I think we can kind of go full circle to what we were, how we started this conversation, which is people start to chase what they think will make money. Yeah, and that seems to be the downfall.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And every time an independent artist actually slips through the cracks and gets into a cinema, yeah, the world goes yeah, that's what we want Exactly, but the world gets it. But imagine if the Philippi brothers were shut down, which they were by so many people yeah. Until they were finally picked up. Yeah, but it was like numbers that weren't. They weren't defiant and they just.
Speaker 2:But it was numbers.
Speaker 1:It was so frustrating because it took recognition outside of our country. The same thing with the Babadook. I remember when it first got launched and it was like nothing here, it was so dead. And then it goes to America, gets two of the best I talk about this all the time at Nauseam Two of the best quotes a horror film could ever get. You get something from William Frege and the director of the Exorcist and Stephen King. And then suddenly it's like oh Well, that's it. Oh, okay, now we.
Speaker 3:That happens in Australian music too.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, exactly, Absolutely. Look at.
Speaker 3:Amel and the Sniffers and you know yeah absolutely. It's the tall poppy syndrome that we have here which is which is? I think it's probably what held us back for 10 years, and that's probably what we were trying to fight through in our heads is like we don't deserve to express ourselves, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we're not meeting the standards of.
Speaker 3:We don't deserve to just make anything yeah. Because we're asking for permission before we have learnt the skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, there you go. Do you know what I mean? That's a really good. You know asking permission before you even know what you're asking for Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And people are just going. Well, you're no one.
Speaker 1:He's like yeah.
Speaker 2:I know I'm no one.
Speaker 1:I would like to get good at something so I can be someone I know, I know you know, no, there's a part of me that is really excited for what's coming up, because I feel like there's been enough of not being allowed and then seeing these people break through, like the fact that last I think it was last year at Film Festival there was two feature screens like low, no budget feature screen that were only an hour long which is like the death knell for festivals?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, no one, you do not do that. And they had two back-to-back in this little screening, the Movie Juice guys were amazing and I was like, oh, amazing, yeah, amazing, more of this. Yeah, yeah, like, and it bridges, I think, totally bridges to actors In this idea of I think. For a long time it felt like actors had to be so malleable and open and neutral and sort of vanilla, and it's like the best thing you can bring is yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know yeah dude, yeah, and then having people in the industry that can do you know, can sort of encourage that for actors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think I felt for a long time that I was like maybe people pleasing and trying to fit a certain version of myself to, to participate in this world, and definitely rejecting my own voice, you know, allowing myself to actually have a say in this world or just meeting people and being like. This is just who I am, this is, you know. I know where I'm at in the, in the, in the industry, but I'm not going to try to be whatever it is I think you want me to be and I think there's this kind of naivety that you have in your 20s when you're walking around just being like please, please, please please just give me a shot or give me some validation or let me in, you know yeah.
Speaker 3:And so you're very much just like yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, whatever, you want, whatever, and then you end up just doing. You're sort of exploiting yourself and doing all these favours for people, which you definitely learn things from. Yeah, I was going to say you know it's not wasted time, you know, and it's not like you deserved a salary.
Speaker 1:You know no exactly.
Speaker 3:But I mean, pay your artist if you can, but um, but no one can hear. You know, that's understandable, but just really putting yourself last and not giving yourself any sort of backing as an artist. And I think I think you kind of hit this point eventually, hopefully, in your life, where you say, all right, that's enough, like I care about the people around me, I'm not going to, I'm not going to tread on anyone's toes here, but I now I have a voice and I'm and I'm.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to tread on anyone's toes here, but now I have a voice. Yeah, and I'm not here to hurt anyone, but I want to. I'm going to have this is my little lane to say what I want to say. Yeah, you know, not to hurt anyone else but, just now. I just want to. It's my turn to get my little message out for anyone that's interested.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that makes you then that makes you good for you know, I think you've talked a bit about with auditioning and different things, but it's like remembering that, no, an actor shouldn't, can't but shouldn't fill any role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that it's like I'm looking for a thing and there's obviously a part of me that will obviously let something in from the person, but it's that sort of that marriage of someone being themselves within the role, because it's sort of like, if you're just bringing it to life with none of you, it's just like Frankenstein's monster.
Speaker 2:There's no, it's dead behind the eyes.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, like, animate the character with you and then that marriage of those, that's what the decision-making should be. Is it that part of you does that marry well with the character? Yeah, you know, and it's like it's hard because you want, you don't, don't like rejection and you want to get work and you want and that's the thing again of how little, how few spots there are to fill in the way that we in australia it's such a problem of of, yeah, casting people, because it's just like, well, we know the person, it it's easy, it's, you know, it's major theatre companies that just kind of go, well, we'll just retrofit you into everything you know, because you're here and it's established and people know you. And we do this with actors, australian actors, and it's like you look back at all those films that were shot here, like Hollywood sort of studio films, but particularly that hotspot of shooting in the sort of late 90s, early 2000s, um, you know, matrix, uh, mission possible to all these things so much.
Speaker 1:Um, it's like so often the supporting character is the same fucking actors it's, and it's like, because they're just as strange, like, oh, you know, here have have the one that you know, here's our like best, you know, and and yeah, and that's just become so ingrained and and and like it's crazy that one of the best ways to get cast in this country sort of being you is on like soap operas yeah yeah, yeah, um, but in film and you know, and it's like so I think there is a again.
Speaker 1:This is my point of I don't blame anyone for suffering this way and and feeling like they have to malform and become this kind of, you know, blob, neutral blob, to do these things, because it's like, well, I need the work because there's not enough work going around and I'm vulnerable because you know I don't like rejection and that's fair enough, yeah, but then like, yeah, the industry's sort of not showing you that unique people get the right people aren't always cast for the thing that fits them best.
Speaker 3:And when you say unique people, which everyone is yeah, exactly. I think that's an important point to make we're talking about. Everyone has something that's unique about them, so don't forget your voice, don't throw it away. Bring that. Bring that to your brand and your true character.
Speaker 1:And long term. I do believe, despite everything I said, you do that enough. I do genuinely believe that does get recognised.
Speaker 3:I think so.
Speaker 1:Whether it all gets recognised in this country or not is a different story, but I think in the world as a whole it absolutely gets recognised. I think that is always going to be a better option for you and it's better for your soul.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, because, look, you're just not going to enjoy the process if you have forgotten.
Speaker 2:You're not being you. You're not being yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think, yeah, through that whole period when I think we were discovering that as individuals, as artists and as people trying to figure out who other people want us to be, so that we can be part of their film or be an actor or get the role or whatever and I've talked about this before walking into an audition and saying what do you want from me as a beginner actor? You know, as a beginner actor. And then, thank goodness, I had that moment when I booked a Crazy K, right yeah, yeah. And I was so dejected by the rejection, right yeah, and I hit fuck it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and not in an angry way. Just like I don't want this anymore Such a great way. I just want to go and have a bit of fun now.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I've got an opportunity to play a character. That's a bit of a laugh.
Speaker 1:You know it's comedy. I was so impressed when all that happened. Thanks, man. It was so fun. And then obviously that you've like an energy you've carried since, but like that in particular, I remember just the way that, yeah, like you were like I'm going to show you why I'm right for this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I didn't realise that at the time.
Speaker 1:No, I don't know, but the way, but it was like it wasn't, my point being that it wasn't like I'm going to prove to you that I can do the thing you're asking me to do. It's like you've given this idea of a thing. I'm telling you. I'm going to show you why this is. I'm the right person to you know. Yeah, bring it to life. And by being you like, yeah, and bringing you out, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like oh, yeah, yeah, a version of me. Yeah, in a parallel universe. You're not still a rapper, it's in my, but it's the same thing. I definitely based my character on certain people that I'm related to. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But even like the same thing. When you showed me that initial video, that like test video thing you did for the Robbie film as Liam because that's particularly when you're playing like a real person it's like, well, how do I, you know that classic thing? Or how do I be like them so much that you know it's not? Well, how do I, you know that classic thing? Or how do I be like them so much you know it's not me anymore, it's not being lit, you know. And the way that it was like I watched that video, so proud because of how hard you worked for it but knew that that was coming from you, that was you as a fan and understanding and appreciate it but as a performer, that was you doing.
Speaker 1:You doing like which is like that's yeah, that's, that's the Like, that's what you want, and thanks, and I love that. Yeah, that's something you've, that's you've been able to stick with and Thanks, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I just I'm just glad that I I had that epiphany and that the opportunities came up and and all the circumstances just kind of aligned eventually, that I did get to a point where I was like so I'd kind of given up on trying so hard, and that's what set me free to come to that realisation that, oh, I just need to let go of that and just trust in myself and bring my version of this to the room.
Speaker 3:You know, and even when I'm in an audition, I'm bringing my own brand, which is the genuine me right, which is much different to the approach that I was taking before that which was hi, hi. What do you need? You know, yeah. But coming in and just being like all right, let's play, let's see what happens.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like your audition Take it or leave it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I think yeah again. It's just like we can talk all about how that applies to being a better actor and being, you know, making a better character, but it's like learning coming from where I'm coming Again. The much more important end goal is that it's your soul, is, you know, looked after.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because you live with that more than any character you know that you embody Absolutely. And again, this is like that's been the big thing that I transitioned. You know, transitioned through this sort of end of last year. This year was like I realised I could quite lighten days see, I was existing as a sort of a boxed in form of myself in every place that I went to and I let that happen yeah, and again part of that was insecurities and anxieties and different things.
Speaker 1:And then also was yeah, like um, not not knowing how good it is having never been there, not knowing how good it is to be me in at every environment, in every theoretical room that I walk into.
Speaker 3:And it's not arrogant. No, and I think that's the fear. I think people fear that if they actually develop a voice, that they're coming across as arrogant. Yeah, you're still curious about other people's.
Speaker 1:You know opinions and lives and yeah, that is a really really, really, really, really hard hill to climb over. But yeah, boy, when you get there, yeah, my god it's part of why I started this as well is because I was, you know, I was kind of getting somewhere as an actor, um, you know, through social.
Speaker 3:But what I've found, and what I find is a lot of people post a lot of photos and they develop, you know, they show a sort of image of their life or how they want to be perceived as a working actor, which is very important for your branding right.
Speaker 3:But I think the next step is connecting to people by actually showing them who you are with your voice. And you know I didn't post anything. You know it was all pictures, right? And I was like what the hell would I post? You know what kind of reels would I post? You know, just like me pretending to be, you know, a day in the life of a working actor, which is mainly me, just waiting for an email and watching movies, you know, and cleaning houses, you know.
Speaker 3:That's the reality yeah, you know, I could keep. We could keep lying about how, how successful we are as actors. Yeah to, to try to prove to someone that we are, but that's not connecting Exactly. And so my realisation was you know the few moments that I have to actually act in something. I'll start talking about that. Yeah, and talk about what didn't work.
Speaker 1:Exactly the vulnerability, because otherwise that's the big threat of social media and I think we're all kind of tapping into it, starting to tap into understanding it now. It's shifted us from one big group of people on this earth to a collection of individuals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:And it's like we're just projecting us.
Speaker 3:That's a wall, that's a barrier, that's a painting on a wall, that's you know, yeah, then you're not really getting to know an artist at all.
Speaker 1:No exactly. You're only looking at some product, yeah and like you're saying you're tapping into, you're saying it's like it's an ulterior motive of trying to. You know again, look for acceptance or approval or healing stuff and it's like no, that doesn't you know and we know that it only damages people. We only know. We know that when someone people only post like the good stuff and all the other people see that and then they judge themselves against that, we know that that doesn't. It's not helping us.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and so if I think if anyone should be not doing that, it's artists. If there's anyone that shouldn't, just be posting when things are going great and all the success and all the staff is artists, because we're our business is vulnerability, yes, yeah, and emotions and feelings or whatever. Yeah and um, and I'm trying to do this thing. I was doing a little bit with the film last year. I was trying to do this thing where I was doing these kind of bloggy video.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah it was more than I. I was like, as you know, I'm a bit resent, resistant to social media posting itself. But who isn't? Well, yeah, exactly, but um, and I don't I do do so like believe that it doesn't have to be for everyone or you find your way.
Speaker 1:Sure, you find your own way, yeah, to exist with it, but yeah but I was, so I was more that it did. It stopped or it dropped off because it was more because of that, but while I was doing it, it it was. You know, it was just like showing the process. And then it was really interesting because I would get a very mixed response, like from some people who would project onto me and go and it's trying to answer the thing that I'm solving. Yeah, yeah, I was like no, I'm actually. I'm feeding you, evon, really, because I want it back.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because, that's some people did, which is amazing, and I'm going to try, and I'm contemplating doing it for this one, just to like. Even if nothing that I say is useful, just the act of showing the vulnerability. It's like I don't know. I believe in that.
Speaker 3:I think it's great man, I think.
Speaker 1:But I would love, I would follow, like all these actors that I do, and I see them when they get the roles and that's great, I'm happy for them, but I'm like. Personally, I'm like I'd love to see them talk about like something they didn't get and, within you, know what they're allowed to talk about yeah and then kind of exploring why they yeah, they felt didn't quite connect or yeah, yeah how they're feeling about it and whatever like that's.
Speaker 1:I would cast people based on that shit because I'm like oh cool, I'm seeing the human being.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also like those moments where they didn't get a role. There's so many factors around why they might not have got that role.
Speaker 1:It's got nothing to do with them most of the time. Nothing to do with the fact that it might have been bad work.
Speaker 3:It probably was really good work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah, you hear, that all the time and it has happened since the dawn of film, like my, you know like people not getting roles for just totally inconsequential or, like you know, arbitrary, you know conditional, other things and stuff that you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know, it is really. I think it's important to share those stories because it's kind of validating. You know, you never know how close you were. You know, and it's okay. I don't know, what am I trying to say? I don't know. I mean, it's kind of dead, but you're not a failure. Yeah, and that's relatable, that's more relatable than success.
Speaker 1:Success isn't very relatable. No, it's desirable but it's not very relatable. Like even just that little moment where you didn't know what to say. People like you might feel the need to cut that, and you may, but like I guarantee you 95% of the people, even if they don't quite realise it, that's the thing that will actually connect them to you, more than the clean, perfect, you know and stuff. And that's what I've learnt through, like you know, learning about my mental health stuff and notably the anxiety, is like, oh, talking about it makes me feel better, but then it seems to make other people feel better and that's really lovely because it's like, because if I just hide that my soul's kind of crashed, but then it's also I'm not.
Speaker 1:what am I doing for the world that way, If everything's, if I'm just?
Speaker 3:projecting, perfection, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Social media is just making us like, taking us further and further away from the tribe that should remain. You know that we don't look after it. You know that the fact that you know the tribe mentality use that word sort of tribe, to mean you know a collection of people that are helping each other that you know if this person's not good at that thing, the other person who is can sort of step up and support that, and then it's like who people are is so important to the success of it, so we know we can identify what everyone's strengths are, and then other people pick up that slack and then vice versa, you know, and that kind of stuff, and we're just like social media is taking us so far away from that to be, like I said, just a collection of individuals. Yeah, like that does absolutely nothing other than just be like a blip of dopamine, and then a repressed feeling of, you know, insufficiency that impacts certain people more than others.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like I love when people refer to social media as like a drug, because it's like a recognition of the addiction, which is something I've sort of finally I put that out recently sort of acknowledging. I'm like, oh, I'm actually really. And I was just a video, talking to someone about it who it was kind of quizzing the other person of like what, Okay, Do you think when you wake up in the morning, you know what? Do you pick up your phone.
Speaker 3:Is that the first thing?
Speaker 1:And the guy who's like he's married and he's like and the other guy was like do you look at it before you say hi, say good morning to your wife, yeah. And he's like oh well, if I clock that, I'll be making so much more effort to distance myself from it.
Speaker 3:What is it that you think you get out of it?
Speaker 2:Get out of what.
Speaker 3:Social media Like watching it.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I mean. I think it's this thing of like. I think people have been taught, and again, no fault of their own.
Speaker 3:I don't blame people for being sucked into this thing. No, of course not. We're all addicted to it. Yeah, so Of course not, we're all addicted to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's again if we're all addicted, it's not our fault, it's in our control. We need to take back the control, but like, and it's up to us to sort of change it. But it's again. It's this like the little dopamine hit of like new, because I think we all recognize that new things and a color that we might not have seen before is like.
Speaker 1:all that stuff is like you know, in the moment is a nice little thing. There's, I think, a false sense of seeing other people's lives, like a false sense of relatability, like a surface kind of like oh, that person's got a dog that makes the funny noise, well, so does mine. And then I think there is this sort of thing of like well, if that person has this perfect life, maybe I can. But again, it's such a surface like thing that you take in. It's like the iceberg at the top, above the water, but underneath the water the rest of the iceberg is is it's, it's actually going well, my life's nothing if it's because I can't do that thing. That seems so effortless and so easy and achievable by it and tangible to this person, yeah, that I'm like. Well, I can't. I don't look that good when I take that photo in front of that wall at the winery.
Speaker 3:Well.
Speaker 1:I'm nothing. All that stuff underneath is the stuff that's, you know, killing us, but that surface stuff just is just enough to kind of keep it active and, again, just to keep it on track. A bit like on theme a bit, it's like none of that helps us as people. I think there's some beautiful things about social media people you can keep in contact with and stuff but, like you know, this thing is sort of indirectly in some cases very directly teaching us that whatever we're doing, no matter what, is not good enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the overwhelming message of insufficiency and not enoughness. It's like, yeah, that's not going to breed anything beautiful. No, I don't know. I think something with actors is. I think there is something very. There is a wonderful way that you can use it as a business tool yeah, but it doesn't have to be sheen, that you can be vulnerable and then keep it at a distance, yeah, and know that that's what it's there for.
Speaker 3:And then, I don't know, this is a bit of a messy point. Well, I think I made a choice to make my social media active-based and not share too much of my personal life, because I think that was just pretty fake.
Speaker 1:But it's not all, shane, though I think. That's why I think you've got a good example. I think you've got a good thing where. I feel like no, seriously, I feel like I still feels like I'm looking at a human being, yeah, and like sure I know you, so I can pick up on things that others might not but it doesn't feel like it's all gloss. Like it does feel like, yeah, it's the, the individual is present, and and it's not all projecting glossy veneer Like you know it's, it's.
Speaker 3:It would be extremely hard for me to keep up glossy veneer. It's just not me.
Speaker 1:I don't put beet or beet all in my beard every day. You know, I can't do this every day, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think I used to post a lot more. You know, look at the cool things I'm doing.
Speaker 1:And it's used like I'm not saying there's an absence of that either, like tell people when you do.
Speaker 1:Well, hey man, if I go on holiday, I'm like look, I did a little holiday, that feels good, because if you marry it, I think, with the vulnerability it's, then it just becomes like I see, you know, see that and go, oh, I'm happy for you.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm not kind of comparing, because I remember the human being, because you present that as well, but I think with art or with filmmaking or with like um, and that's what I'm trying to balance like with like the cats or death films page, again working through my resistance to social media posting and stuff and that kind of shit, but it's going all right. Well, I'll tell you, when the film does well, because that's nice and it's a nice thing and, yes, it does have a little bit of like, people, you see, just bump into people who are kind of like, oh, it seems like it's doing well, then there's a little bit of worth there. In that, for sure, people feel like you're doing the right thing. That's like, that makes something. Yeah, that means something. But I try to marry it with like. Again, this thing's kind of not working and I don't know if I'm succeeding in it. I mean, I don't post a lot anyway, but I'm really conscious of it. I'm trying to do more of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think what makes you beautiful as a human and interesting as an artist is your vulnerability Sure. Beautiful as a human and interesting as an artist is your vulnerability Sure. Do you know what? I mean and I think that's something that you lean on and I think it's perfect. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Sure, so yeah, and your beard is good. Copy and paste.
Speaker 2:Everyone out there.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that was really lovely and I do. It does feel like a strength, like it was a thing where I was like I have to be to survive. For me personally, I have to be on or just the first way for me to get through things.
Speaker 3:It's who you've always been, though I think the brand is is like I said it's it's the real you yeah, it's vulnerability is truth, you know.
Speaker 1:In that sense, I hope that's what my films kind of become, whatever genre, whatever, it's not a sheen or a projection of yeah, gloss it's. There's a vulnerability like, no matter what, even if it's some weird horror comedy, schlocky fucking thing, there's like there's a hopefully a feeling of vulnerability to it. Yeah, because if it's not there, then it's. Yeah, it's not me, yeah, um yeah, so where?
Speaker 3:so your film, greg, which is so good, um, and something I was like so proud to see you do, because, as we've talked about through this chat, it felt like there was so much waiting for both of us to actually do the thing Not that we weren't trying things, but you made this thing finally, and I remember like catching up with you around that time when you were writing and you were just hard out writing these things, and then you just finally went and did it and you got the crew together and you made this really beautiful short film on no budget and people came together for it.
Speaker 1:Well, it was interesting. It was like a period of time Cause I, like I said, I've always been writing and it was through some of some friends that we have this kind of film group with, um, you know, them all being filmmakers and active filmmakers, yeah. So it was like, I think the stuff of kind of like, okay, I'm ready to do it now, it was a little bit like, oh, competitive spirit maybe injected into it, which was great of like, oh well, yeah, but then the pressure I'd put on myself was the first thing that I do has to be because it's been, you know, it's been a while and everyone I've been telling people for 10 fucking plus years, I'm a filmmaker.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you've got to put pressure on yourself to blow them away with something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's been a talk for so long, exactly.
Speaker 1:And I'm doing all the failing because they're not seeing that I've been doing all the failing and succeeding and whatever like in the background on my computer, you know. Anyway, so I had a bunch of scripts and then I so one of my like key people in my life, but specifically as a filmmaker, is a guy called Shane McNeill that I met at film school and was kind of like between him and maybe, like Ashley, were the only people that seemed to kind of go oh, there's something here that saw the artist.
Speaker 3:You know or looked at the artist.
Speaker 1:I was in this kind of slump, covid time, like I was again. I was writing and I wrote, you know, most of the feature script, one that I haven't made yet. So it was always still the things were happening behind the scenes. But, yeah, there's pressure to all right, I've got to pick the right thing. And then I saw like I had, and then I happened to start developing more like shorts, and then I was working it during the fringe and then bumped into Shane and I was like holy shit, and I could immediately, like I was aware enough to go like, oh, this needed to happen.
Speaker 1:I just felt in my bones, I was like, oh shit, yeah, I desperately needed to see him again Reconnected. And he's telling me, oh so what have you got? What are you doing? You know, I've got these things and stuff and I was talking through these different ideas and, um, one of them was greg that I wrote. It just was birthed from, you know, the recent kind of exploration or kind of understanding of me having anxiety and struggling with anxiety and kind of just wanting to translate that to people who maybe, who are around me that maybe don't quite get it and I probably, if I searched that more. I was like I'm probably just trying to tell like my family or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is what it's like for me, and I happened to show it to Dave Gregan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he was like oh, I like it, you know, I'd work on this.
Speaker 1:But I held his other ones and I remember I was saying to Shane the first time we caught up I got all these scripts and I go, oh there's Greg, but like it feels a bit safe. And he immediately was like, so Dave said he'd do it. Yeah, just cut through all that shit. And he was like, well, there you go. Like you wrote that from a place of you know truth and vulnerability and stuff. Yeah, why would you make the like, dude, it's half made this, you've already started, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I just sort of, yeah, ejected this idea of it has to be the first thing. This thing has to be challenging and daring and crazy and ambitious or whatever. And I was like not to say that this is. It is safe, greg, necessarily nothing is safe, but it's, it's got, it's got something in there already that someone has, you know, said yes to, and again, with no money or anything, that's like that's half the film being made.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I just kind of followed that and I, yeah, shane is a voice that you know, it's one of the few and I think it's why he's so special to me. It's one of the few male voices that I listen to that I'm not just immediately kind of rejecting and he's totally like become my kind of like film dad in that sense, and I ring him up, I'm like it's like, I need, I've got this, I need, like I'm on the therapy couch, you know, about this thing to do with some script or something or whatever, and he will always listen and always have time for me. He's one of the most beautiful people on the planet, so, so generous and amazing, and so it's really his spirit, paired with Dave's kind of blessing and and sort of acknowledgement of it, and then obviously the forever continued support of, like my mom.
Speaker 1:That was the person in my life, more than anyone, that's never said no to me for any of this stuff. It just kind of kept rolling. And then, unfortunately, near the end, Dave had to pull out for a different thing. But then Katrina Penning, who was the first AC, stepped up nobly and and just just did such an amazing job. And she sort of admitted later that it was like oh, I didn't bring too much of myself to it because it was, like you know, filling the hole that Dave left and I was like that's you kind of, oh, just sit back.
Speaker 1:He was like that's what you did with that yeah. She was amazing and you see it in all her other work Like she's one of the best here and so grateful, obviously for saving it but for bringing what you know her craft I mean incredible craft to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but dave's that initial thing that he you know the energy that he gave it an acceptance or whatever another beautiful, beautiful, beautiful man that's so unbelievably generous and amazing yeah, and someone, someone, a friend, but also someone that you really look up to oh yeah, yeah, because he was the first guy like I met him film school was the first sets that I professional sets I was working on was sort of gaffing or assisting him and those three people really, you know, mum, dave and Shane, sort of they're the key people, yeah, and it's kind of interesting that, like you had and this might have been an anxiety thing, I don't know finding excuses of why you shouldn't follow.
Speaker 2:That will follow through with something that you actually want to do.
Speaker 3:Oh, the myriad you know, and like the excuses we make for ourselves to not do it yeah and the procrastination yeah, you know and and it's so nice that shane had that foresight.
Speaker 1:Just be like he's that you've got the thing weaving, just do the thing, just do it yeah. Break the seal, man, yeah there's the same reason why I kind of jumped. You know well one of the reasons why I jumped sort of straight then after that to making my first feature. Yeah, because it was like just do it.
Speaker 3:I think it takes practice, like it is really hard to break that seal and do it the first time. But it's just, that is something to practice you know committing to something that feels, so that you feel you don't have a right to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was another thing that kind of identified in my 20s or my late 20s. It was like you know, if something doesn't have a manual, I would be like, well, that stays in the box. You know that kind of mentality.
Speaker 3:You know I was so bad at that and now I do not give up, but it's kind of it maybe kind of makes me think of what you were saying at the start about your anxiety and recognising how to sort of manage it and, you know, living with it and Befriending it.
Speaker 1:Befriending- sure it's the best part of it, personifying it, you know, yeah, but that's what Greg was all about. It was like that was a. It was. You know the film's about a guy just before a date talking to his anxiety and the anxiety is kind of trying to bully him, but he's sort of not talking out of this, this thing, that could be really good for him, yeah, but the anxiety's intention is actually he wants, he's trying to help him.
Speaker 1:He's trying to help him, but it's his war on war idea of what help is.
Speaker 1:He's kind of you know, go home, sit in the dark room by yourself, because that's safe yeah, so it's a good intention, yeah, and then you, when you learn to talk to your anxiety, that's what sort of the end of the film is. It's like Evie's character was. It's just a little hint of like. She's actually someone that has a conversation, is having a conversation with hers, and so she's in a slightly better place. So you know, if they do form a relationship, there's a bit of like. I can show you the ropes a little bit. Yeah, it's so nice.
Speaker 1:That's sort of its method is really ugly and yeah, and if I'm not on my my game, it can really throw me. It's a big thing and it was like, oh, the way that it held me back for all those years. It was like, well, it's not the anxiety's fault, it was my fault for, again, not being not listening to it in the right way, and yeah, and then it's like the anxiety actually, um, is what's now kind of weirdly propelling me, you know one of the things, because it's part of me.
Speaker 1:And then now it's like, yeah, cool, I'm in feature land now and I look at shorts. I mean, neither of them have come out yet. But even if they fucking disappear and die, I feel, yeah, like I said, I feel like I've broken that seal. But it's like no, I'm there now and now I'm just, I'm the devil on everyone else's shoulders. Every other filmmaker that I know's shoulders going can't do the feature. Do the feature.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Just do it. Oh man, it feels so good yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've validated myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it and you know it takes practice to push through all the fears and do it. Well, anything that we ever talk about doing, any plans we make doing this podcast, I think I had the idea for more than a year and what I found myself doing was I kept buying shit to. That was my version of procrastination. Sure, Because I got all these other mics that I got off. Marketplace. They're fine Then.
Speaker 3:I'm like nah, because I already got one of these ones. They got a match and I should get this mixing desk thing. I already had a, you know an interface.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I need to buy another camera. I was just procrastinating starting the thing and then, even once I started recording them, it took me ages to release the first one. Do you remember like we we bumped into each other in the supermarket and we were talking about like how to release the first one? Oh yeah, and and again, like the same reason why I I it took me so long to record the first one and I had to bite the bullet and I called nick and he was at my house within 20 minutes and I wasn't even set up and I just said, just come over. I don't know how to record a podcast, but I definitely have the equipment now. Like I think we can do it just and I don't. I don't know how to run an interview and I don't even want it to be an interview. I just want to talk to my friend and just come over. And he was like, yeah, man.
Speaker 3:And he, he just like jumped in in the deep end with me and we, just, we just did it. And then I was like I'll see what it comes out like, I'll edit, edit it and trim the fat, and, and you know I was- like oh, it was fine, yeah, and people liked it.
Speaker 1:You jumped off the cliff and you didn't hurt your legs and you're like exactly, but like kind of fun while I was gliding in the air.
Speaker 3:Yeah but but even that chat we had in the supermarket, like I'd hit another block where I was procrastinating and I was thinking about the perfect way to release the first few episodes and, yeah, there's probably a formula that's like you know, release three at once and have you know to activate the algorithm or whatever. But then that became the reason why I wasn't releasing anything and I just went no, it's out there.
Speaker 3:The first one's out there now and I've committed to weekly episodes and you know I'm, you know I missed one week, but you know whatever, like I got sick but at least I I've started and now I'm like, okay, now there's, there's a pressure to release them and that's going to allow me to actually not think about when they're finished and just release them. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, like it doesn't have to be perfect to get them out there. But the point is like just starting and recognising when you're procrastinating, and recognising when you're finding excuses not to start something.
Speaker 1:And be you know, be gentle with yourself and be like going yeah there's that thing again. Okay, that's not actually a big deal, I should just do it, but don't punish yourself if you you know no, but recognise it. It's part of the process. I think, yeah, you know, you can get yourself out of it in the right way.
Speaker 3:It's funny Like Sona always reminds me of this. Anytime I make something, like any of the content that I make, there's always a period because it takes like those reels took me freaking ages, man, like too long, can't keep that up. But with this as well, there's always a period where I'm driving in the car with her and I'm like I don't know where it's going. I don't know what to do. I've got no ideas. It's crap. I've wasted so much time recorded all this stuff. It's just rubbish.
Speaker 3:And she's like you say this every single time and the next day you've cracked it all and then you release it three days later and you're so stoked with it. Yeah, but you go every single time. I go through that period where I'm like I've, this is a waste of time. I don't know why I'm doing this. I've got my ideas are crap. Yeah, but that's part of my process. You know, all that self-doubt is part of the process and recognizing when that happens I'm like, oh, I'm doubting myself, I hate everything I'm doing. I just have to get through that little or just like bypass it and be like okay enough of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, finish the thing, get it done and release it. You know it's part of the process you know, and the same with like starting you know, all that self-doubt and all the procrastination is part of the process. Yeah, get it done. Yeah, okay, and you're in pre-production of another feature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I don't know when this will be released. It might be shooting by that point. But yeah, right in the thick of it, where are you at in that process, like what's? Well, it's a bit blurry because I'm sort of it's a big ensemble film and it's sort of like how I'm casting is also a bit based on availability, so I want to develop it with people as much as possible.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's this sort of small, beautiful crew of people. But then it's like you know, casting is sort of like I'm casting good people. That's how it starts. That's the first thing. If they're a good actor, that's a bonus.
Speaker 3:Sure, but just like genuine people yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like it's helpful for this film, because hey surprise, surprise, it's a very vulnerable film, yeah, but yeah, so it's a really. It's this really beautiful organic thing. It's kind of moving along and like evolving.
Speaker 3:It's so cool, man, I'm really stoked that you're like you're not just making the films that you want to make and writing the films that you want to write. You're creating the environment that you want to work in as well and finding the crew and the cast that fit that ethos.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Which is like it's just going to make for good art. I think I think so, but so when these films are out, where can you know? Obviously, we want to keep some of the details under wraps for the creative process and everything but where can we find you on social media so that we can keep updated with your work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's all. I'm all sort of. All this stuff is localized on Cats or Death Films. Yeah, which is at Cats or Death Films? Yeah, awesome Craig's out there. You can watch it on the page. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's done its little run All the bios and then the other two.
Speaker 1:These features sometime next year. We'll see Amazing. We'll see where we go.
Speaker 3:But yeah, awesome man, thanks so much for being here, man, this means so much, dude.
Speaker 1:Thank you, man.
Speaker 3:Love you, brother, love you too.
Speaker 2:Callan, you're the best man Thanks so much for on Instagram at CatsOrDeathFilms. But before you do ask yourself one question Is it cats or death? Anyway, join me next week. I have another really wonderful guest coming on. I won't say who it is because we haven't recorded the episode yet, and just in case we get too busy and it doesn't happen. I don't want to make promises, but she's a wonderful actor and I can't wait to have a chat with her. It's going to be such a good episode. Um, stay tuned for that one. Please subscribe, hit, follow all of those things. Make sure you don't miss that episode. All right, guys, I'll see you next week. Stay off the internet. It's too terrifying. My name is chris gunn and, hey, go pluck yourself. Thank you.