Ep 13 Frazer Hadfield: Better Man Reflections with “Nate” & “Noel Gallagher”

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This week I sat down with fellow Better Man actor Frazer Hadfield, who played Robbie Williams’ best mate in the film, and honestly, one of the real beating hearts of the story. We get into everything from the craft, the career stuff, and what it actually feels like being on the inside of a big film like Better Man.

We talk about Michael Gracie’s rehearsal style, long-take filmmaking, iPhone run-throughs, reshoots, industry myths, self-tapes that may or may not get watched, and how to stay grounded when the work goes a bit quiet. Frazer’s got this calm, honest perspective on the industry that’s genuinely refreshing, and there’s so much actors can take from the way he approaches the job.

I loved this chat. Thanks for coming in, Frazer.

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Thanks for listening. Let me know what you think.

🎵 Theme music by Nick Gun: soundcloud.com/nickgun

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open And Guest Reveal
• 2:26 Why Better Man Mattered To Both Of Us
• 6:46 Michael Gracie’s Actor-Led Process
• 12:24 The Kitchen Scene: Time, Freedom, And Trust
• 18:10 Rehearsing On iPhones And Hyperreal Sets
• 24:06 The “Monkey” Choice And On-Set Surprises
• 31:30 Casting Calls, Bad Tapes, And Second Chances
• 38:20 Holding Patterns, Agents, And The Waiting Game
• 44:30 Profession vs Craft: Identity And Come Downs
• 52:10 Community, Geography, And Making Your Own Work
• 1:00:20 Self-Tapes, Odds, And What Directors Really Watch
• 1:08:10 Breaking “Rules” To Stand Out On Tape
• 1:15:00 Drama School: Tools, Myths, And Individuality
• 1:23:20 Early Theatre Breaks And Learning From Masters
• 1:31:20 Not A Dancer: Mislabels And Casting Assumptions

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:00

Hi, my name is Fraser Hatfield and you should go pluck yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 0:16

Hello, welcome to Go Pluck Yourself The Actor's Pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn. I'm gonna cut straight to the chase on this one. I'm so excited about my guest this week calling all the way in from London, my first international guest. It's Fraser Hadfield. And if you're not familiar with that name yet, you should be. Well you're about to be. And if you happen to have seen that one big film where I that I had that tiny little role in, uh you might recognise him as this guy.

SPEAKER_05: 0:44

Yeah, and you've no idea that I earn in a month what you fucking snort in a minute. That I only get to see my kid for two hours every fortnight, so you need money.

SPEAKER_02: 0:52

That's right. Fraser Hadfield uh played Nate, who was Robbie Williams's best mate in Better Man. Um have I mentioned that I was in Better Man? No, first time? Well, I was. But Fraser was in it like a million times more, like proper in it. Uh like his character is kind of essential to the story in it. Uh, he kind of serves as this sort of um counterpoint to to the life Robbie could have led, you know, had he not become the massive star that he did. Anyway, it's brilliant, and Fraser is brilliant, and he gives one of the most honest and real performances in the film, and yeah, it was a bloody honour to chat to him, and really fun to look back on uh and reflect on both of our experiences working on the film, even though I had you know had one day. But yeah, I never really had a chance to hear about anyone else's experiences, so this was really cool. It was really nice of him to call in and take the time. But we didn't just chat about Better Man, we get into all sorts of nitty, gritty, sticky parts of navigating an acting career, all the feelings that sort of come with being part of a film that big and then trying to figure out what the hell to do next. Yeah, it's really interesting. He's he's fascinating. So make sure you're paying attention. I'm really honored that he came on. Um I'm also honored that he listens to the podcast. It's crazy. So thanks for coming on, Fraser. It's really cool. It's cool to sort of have this thing, this movie, which has connected us and to have made a pal from across the world, even though we never actually technically worked together. But yeah, it's really cool. And hey, by the way, if you like what I'm doing here and you'd like to support the show and help to keep this thing going, you can do so by signing up to the Patreon, patreon.com/slash go pluck yourself pod and contributing as little as$5 a month towards the show. This thing is entirely listener funded by you. You're the listener, and I'm not beholden to any advertisers, this is completely independent. So if you've been listening and you're enjoying it, if this podcast fires you up creatively, please do me a favor by typing that link into your browser to become a patron. But if you can't afford to contribute to the show, that's perfectly fine. Um, you'll still be able to listen for free. Think of it like when you see a busker, you can either drop them uh a fiver or you can just give them a smile and enjoy the music. Either way, I'm still gonna sing to you, but if you contribute, I'll sing even better. Uh two things to remember with Patreon. Number one, if you're on an iPhone, don't use the Patreon app as Apple, uh they will take 30% of your contribution just for using their app because they're greedy bastards. But you can avoid that fee by simply signing up using a web browser like Chrome or Safari. And number two, when you go into Patreon, click C Membership Options. Don't press join for free. Joining for free does absolutely nothing for you or for me. So press C Membership Options if you'd like to contribute as little as$5 a month to the show so that eventually I can pay myself um, you know, one day a week to work on this show so that I don't have to stay up until 3 a.m. to get an episode finished. Thank you to everyone that's joined up to support the show. It really means the world, guys. Okay, ramble, ramble, ramble, like, follow, subscribe, share, tell a friend, blah, blah, blah, do all that stuff. Shut up, Chris. Okay, please enjoy my delightful chat with the unbelievably talented Fraser Hadfield.

SPEAKER_05: 4:22

What's going on, mate? Yeah, not a lot. It's great to sort of chat with you. Yeah. Yeah, man. This is the first time sort of face to face.

SPEAKER_02: 4:30

Yeah, this is as close as it's ever gonna get, unless I unless it's done to the UK. Yeah, okay. I don't you never know. I don't mean to say ever, but yeah, it's as close as we'll get for now.

SPEAKER_05: 4:39

Um where are you based, man? I'm in London. Um my family live in Australia. My mum and dad. Oh, really? My sister. Yeah. So they moved over there sort of um 15 years ago now. Probably.

SPEAKER_02: 4:51

Where are they based, man?

SPEAKER_05: 4:52

Uh they're in Ballarat. Oh, no way. Like country. Yeah. But it was really nice. So when when I were over to film Better Man, I got to spend a bit of time with them, which is great.

SPEAKER_02: 5:01

That's mad. When was the last time you saw them before that?

SPEAKER_05: 5:03

Uh I did another show. I weirdly work loads in Australia. I did another show um the year before uh that filmed in Sydney. Um they they came up and and and saw me there. We sort of sort of see each other once a year. They're actually over in um in the UK visiting now, they're arriving later on today.

SPEAKER_02: 5:20

Oh, that's good, man. It's a lot, it's a long way to travel. I'm glad you get to see them though.

SPEAKER_00: 5:24

Yeah, it's nuts. Um man, I'm tripping out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 5:28

Well, why don't we tell my family, because they're the younger ones that watch, but why don't we tell them how what what our connection is and and and I I say this, I say this because it's um I'm I don't I don't have a right right to sort of claim it as much as you do because I had one line. But no, I d uh look, hey, you it rippled, right? It it made it in, man, and that's all that matters. But yeah, we were both in Better Man and and who did you play in Betterman?

SPEAKER_05: 5:54

Uh I played Nate in Betterman who's um Robbie's uh semi-fictional best friend.

SPEAKER_02: 6:01

Oh, is so yeah, I I did want to know about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 6:04

Because I was curious if if he was based on a real person or just I think he's like an amalgamation of a bunch of different uh uh a bunch of um bunch of Robbie's friends. Um but essentially no, he's a he's a sort of narrative device. Um I see. Yeah, it was sort of weird. Everyone else had real people to sort of sort of study, emulate, whatever. Um and I didn't. Which was kind of nice actually. It just was took the pressure off. Wasn't trying to like do someone's voice or I mean man, I was so impressed with all the stuff that you did about your process and and like getting the role and and how you sort of embodied the characters. It was really really really impressive, and I just had none of that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:43

Oh well, yeah. I mean, there's there's certainly pressure when you're playing someone that's such a a well-known person, you know. But yeah, so do you so did you have like were you able to chat with Robbie about who this guy was, or like what kind of material or or um connections did you have? Just the scripts?

SPEAKER_05: 7:01

The script the script was great. Um it was a always a really well-written character, which is nice. It definitely felt like the sort of best character I've ever been given on the page, you know. I was like, Oh, I can't believe I get these really cool scenes. But they rewrote it loads, like the whole way through pre-production and even when we were shooting, they rewrote the character, so it was sort of shifting and hard to keep on top of what it was. But it was you know, Simon, Simon and um uh Simon Gleason, the writer and and Michael Gracie, they were like, do what you want with it. Oh really?

SPEAKER_02: 7:32

So you had a lot of creative control.

SPEAKER_05: 7:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh and I mean I don't know what your experience was with Michael, um, but he's very like actor-led.

SPEAKER_01: 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 7:42

Which is sort of crazy. I never expected that. It's this guy that does these huge big blockbuster films, he's known for these incredibly like choreographed adverts and and and movies and things. And and then when you get on set, it's like he feels like a theatre director.

SPEAKER_02: 7:55

Yeah, he was like I mean, I didn't I was on set with him for one day, right? So I didn't get a whole lot of time with him. But he he seemed to really trust everyone, like the whole cast. Like even with me, we didn't really talk that much, you know. He just kind of said, Yeah, just you know what you're doing? And I said, Yeah. Yeah. And I said, Can I add lip? He's like, try it out. That was about it. So he yeah, I I see what you mean. Like he seemed to really trust his actors, which is really amazing. Um, how do you how do you find working like that? Do you prefer that or do you prefer to have a bit more like um yeah, how do you work?

SPEAKER_05: 8:31

In terms of screen work, it was like the best working experience of my life. Yeah, it was I mean, I guess it comes with a with a sort of film like that, with a budget like that, you know that you you you get a lot more time. Yeah, um, but he gave me and the other actors such time and space. I mean, we'd do like 40 takes really on the setup. It's and and he'd just be like, right, okay, uh something completely different this time. Wow. Uh and I think because he ran so many takes, he was like, Don't worry about continuity because we're getting so many takes, there'll be something to match it with. Do whatever, go wherever you want, blockings sort of out the window. Eric the DP was so amazing, and he's just like, Yeah, don't don't stand in the same place, I'll follow you, I'll walk around. That's like steady cam stuff just following you.

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Did you have just one one camera on you for your scenes?

SPEAKER_05: 9:14

Or no, no, no, no. Oh really? No, so it was like uh sometimes it was like a six camera setup.

SPEAKER_02: 9:19

Really?

SPEAKER_05: 9:20

And they just he'd just run it and just go, okay. And we do big long I mean, I've got a scene at the end of the film that's like four minutes long. Yeah, yeah, in the in the kitchen. Yeah, four or five minutes long. And it was Yeah, it's a good scene, right? Yeah. But you just run it. He'd just go, okay, here we go. Five minute take, off you go. And then we'll do it again. And he'd go, okay, try walk somewhere different, do something, do something different.

SPEAKER_02: 9:40

That is amazing. Change the lines.

SPEAKER_05: 9:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 9:43

And did you have that one day to do do that whole scene, or what or was that like a half day thing, or what?

SPEAKER_05: 9:47

Two two days to do that.

SPEAKER_02: 9:48

To do that one scene.

SPEAKER_05: 9:49

Yeah. Amazing, man. And then and that's just that, and then all the like I mean like I walk into the kitchen and then like ev everything was a separate day, and it's yeah, there's so much time spent on each little bit. But yeah, that we had a whole day to do that. Um and they were shooting second units somewhere else, but but we had the main unit for the for the for the entire day, and then the next day as well. Yeah, so it was yeah, they definitely but the thing that Michael did that was really cool. It's obviously I did like rehearsals for screen stuff before, but he got a lot of the casting before shooting started to to rehearse, and usually I've done that for like camera positions and whatever, and and and a little bit of like getting familiar with the scenes, but he ran it like a theatre rehearsal room. Yeah, yeah. It was when he was doing The Greatest Showman, he showed us this actually, it was really cool. When he was doing The Greatest Showman, when he was in rehearsal for that, he rehearsed the whole the whole uh film in a in a rehearsal studio and filmed it all on iPhones. Really? Had like oh yes, three people's iPhones, and he cut it together, and so he's got like this an iPhone edit, feature length Greatest Showman in the rehearsal room with like Zendaya and Zach Efron and Hugh Jackman in like sweatpants and stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 11:01

It's yeah, that is wild man.

SPEAKER_05: 11:03

So he tried to do the same for Better Man, yeah, um, and Prep ended up being a bit kind of bumpy because of various different things, and um he didn't get the whole thing, but we got large chunks of it. So even for your scenes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

Well that the whole film. It's a wild man. No wonder it's a wild man.

SPEAKER_05: 11:22

It doesn't and there's actually anything, eh? Yeah. The the the boys would be able to show you, I don't have it, but the um the Take That boys, but there's also the the Regent Street scene. There's a um for people that haven't seen it, there's a big scene in the film where Take That and Robbie danced down Regent Street in central London, which was filmed like on location. Yeah, yeah. Like crazy amounts of money that it costs to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 11:44

But there's an there's an iPhone version in like a rehearsal studio.

SPEAKER_02: 11:48

Oh, I think I've seen that. I think there's clips of that on on YouTube, man. Although they were using it in promo and stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 11:54

But that looks cooler than like just me in a in t-shirt and jeans in a kitchen with John and a rehearsal room, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 12:01

Yeah. That that scene in the kitchen when he's making the he's buttering the sandwiches or whatever he's doing. Yeah, the toast, yeah, crazy. In the uh the wetsuit. Whatever that thing was.

SPEAKER_05: 12:12

But so so obviously it's all like uh the I've said the characters like um sort of fictionalized, but yeah. But that that all happened, that stuff happened. So he had one of those suits. It's like a vacuuna suit. Have you seen them?

SPEAKER_02: 12:25

I've never only in this film. It's the first time I've seen one.

SPEAKER_05: 12:28

It's like a it's like a wetsuit with a with it like a vacuum attached.

SPEAKER_02: 12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 12:32

And it it like sucks the wet like vacuum packs you basically. Yeah. And apparently then that's that helps. I don't know. With what, like fat? Like weight loss, yeah, fat loss, whatever. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. But then he doesn't keep it on, he he doesn't like wear it under his clothes. He just he just puts it on, the vacuum goes on for a bit, and then he and then he's nice and skinny. I don't know how that works.

SPEAKER_02: 12:51

So funny, man. Was that thing running during your scene? No, it wasn't there. Um, and was he a monkey in your scene? Yeah, right, yeah. Fucking idiot.

SPEAKER_05: 13:02

Um there was a it's really funny though watching the film. I wonder if you felt like this as well, but um uh I I watch it and I'm like, oh, I don't recognise this because John O's not there. Um it's a it's a monkey. Yeah. And I did the scenes and there was there was such an emphasis on like sort of realism, and that's that's the other thing that Michael sort of lent lent into, which I was really surprised by was how that is like almost like hyper-realism in the in the hypernaturalism in the in those sort of um dramatic scenes. So everything was there pretty much. Obviously, there's a lot of CG stuff with the monkey, but apart from that, there's not there actually isn't a lot of CG stuff, it was all it was all practical, the sets were all there.

SPEAKER_01: 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 13:43

So you get you get into these sort of like quite dramatic scenes and you sort of forget that John O's wearing grey pajamas.

SPEAKER_01: 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 13:49

And you're just like doing a scene with him. So when that that when you see it and it's like, oh, he's he's a monkey, but also like, oh, he's wearing clothes. It's like that's the that's the strange thing. It is weird. It's easy to forget, yeah. So that's that's the thing that really like pulls you out of it or pulled me out of it. Because I was like, he's he doesn't look like he did when I did it.

SPEAKER_02: 14:06

Well, when I'd shot it, I didn't really know anything about the monkey thing. Really? Yeah, that's it was fascinating. Yeah, it was kind of a rumour. And I think I'd heard I I think I'd heard that he was going to be that he was like sometimes a monkey, but he was gonna be played played by like a young Robbie or the real Robbie, and like sometimes like when you go into his imagination or something, he would be this monkey version. That's what I assumed it would be, but uh that nothing was confirmed to me at all. Like I just had no idea what what that whole monkey thing was about. So when I was on set and and Johnno was in the the suit, I just assumed like this is one of his monkey scenes, right? And but then but then they were walking, they they blocked the scene out with this statue monkey, yeah, yeah, the just to get the references, and we're all like me and all the extras and everyone, we're just like, What the fuck is going on? Like this huge monkey with this, you know, with the big fang and the window. The massive smile, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, and all these extras, like they hadn't some of them, it was the first time they'd been on a film set as well. They they were really like, What is this movie? I'm like, I don't, I don't really know. We'll find out, I guess.

SPEAKER_05: 15:17

Yeah, there's a there's a the little girl who played my daughter in the film, uh, she was on set with her mum. And I remember we sat in the big sort of in a big uh studio, um but Jonna was up filming in the suit and had the head cam on and everything and all the witness cameras, it was like a a big old, a big old day on set for him. Yeah, and I was sat with uh with this little girl in and at the side and and her mum, and uh she said to her mum, she's like, Why why is he in a funny suit? And they're like, Oh, well, they're gonna replace him um and make him look like the real Robbie Williams. It's because he's too short. Um and we were all like, Oh yeah, that was the first time on set. I was like, Oh, I didn't I actually didn't realise this this was a secret.

SPEAKER_02: 15:58

Oh, of course, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 15:59

Um just overhearing things, I was like, Oh wait, are we not meant to tell people that he's yeah, he's a monkey?

SPEAKER_02: 16:05

Yeah, um I I I don't think I was even told the details because I guess because I was I had such a small role, they were like, we we can't trust this guy with anything.

SPEAKER_05: 16:14

I think honestly, I think it's probably there's there's so many people involved in that film that they just uh they forget to tell everyone. I think so, yeah. But the I I I knew about it because I I got a casting call, um a casting breakdown came through and I got a tape for to play Robbie like a year before. Yeah. Don't worry about looking like Robbie, but that's all it said.

SPEAKER_01: 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:41

I was like, what is what is going on here?

SPEAKER_01: 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:44

I found that tape recently because the the the tape that they that the scene that they sent for that was was the scene with um with Nate in the kitchen that we were talking about. Really? Yeah, and I found the tape because I was doing Robbie and my wife Catherine was was doing Nate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was so we found out. I was like, oh yeah, I think I remember. And it's really, really terrible tape. Terrible. Oh, you should you should put it up, man. I want to see it. Oh man, it's such bad work. Really?

SPEAKER_02: 17:10

Obviously not.

SPEAKER_05: 17:12

Got you in the door. No, I don't think it did actually. I think they forgot about me for six months and then they brought me back in for something else. Oh, okay, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was like a year, it was like a year previously.

SPEAKER_01: 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 17:23

But do you do you get that with tapes? I I occasionally I'll get a tape through, and I just immediately go, ah, no way.

SPEAKER_02: 17:30

Yeah, of course. Well, like this. There was no way I was getting on this one at all.

SPEAKER_05: 17:36

But interesting though, but but you still went you I I mean you've you've documented it. You went through your process, you you did a you got it all like I'm not saying like about getting the role, I mean more about like doing a good job.

SPEAKER_02: 17:48

Oh, I see, yeah. Um Yeah, like m usually I I try not to overthink the work that I've done, you know. If I'm doing too many takes, I'm like, alright, draw the draw the line, that's it, send it off. It is what it is, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 18:00

I and I I I think that's like admirable. But I mean I get I occasionally get take tapes through and I'll read the scene and just go, oh nah. There's no way I don't know why I don't know why. I don't know what it what it is about them. Whether it's probably probably like mindset at the time or like I don't know, but that rob that Robbie tape came through. Maybe it's maybe it's real people, but that robbie tape came through and I was like I'm I'm I can't do this. Yeah, not write.

SPEAKER_02: 18:28

Of course, man. Like, mate, I I'm I live in Adelaide in Australia. Like, we're in such a small city, and Adelaide actors don't get hired for interstate, interstate. Oh, for interstate stuff, okay. Never plus, I don't know how to do a mank accent. I had no idea what that sounded like. I actually I said no to my agent. I said, Don't bother, like, why would you put me forward for something like that? That's not my gig. And he's just like, I'm gonna put you forward anyway. Just give it a shot. You've got a few weeks to prepare. And so I just I was like, all right, well, I'll give it a crack, I might as well.

SPEAKER_05: 19:00

And um it's like trust trusting that, yeah, trusting the people around you, trusting the yeah, processes kind of glib.

SPEAKER_02: 19:08

But at that point in the in the process, what have you got to lose?

SPEAKER_05: 19:10

You know, I don't know. Um for me, honestly, like confidence. Yeah, I think that's sometimes what's sc up is me. I remember I just that was it's one of the take tapes that I I always remember and thinking, oh no, yeah, I can't believe I can't believe that I've sent that into a casting office, and someone may have seen that. There's a couple of and and they stick out like from years ago. I remember I'm like, oh, why did I do that? There's something I do where if I feel uncomfortable or feel like I'm not getting it, I I I like push. Yeah, I feel like I become this gurning caricature that's like so desperate to make it work. Do you think you did that in that first audition? Yeah, man, for sure. Yeah. Oh, it's it's it's so bad. It's it's such terrible work.

SPEAKER_02: 19:57

It's a great story though, knowing that you you sent in that audition that you you think like you that's just your opinion, man. It might have been a really good audition. You you don't know. It's not really up to us to decide whether our work is good. It isn't up to us, but it's still it didn't write you off from the movie. You still ended up I mean, what so what happened next? Was it just another casting call for a different role that came up?

SPEAKER_05: 20:19

I can't remember. Like uh that was that was a long time ago. It was like middle of lockdown. I remember doing it in the the Robbie tape, I remember doing like in my bedroom oh really like in full lockdown, middle of middle of the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01: 20:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_05: 20:32

And then yeah, and then I got a I got a tape through to play, I can't remember. There was a I I taped for a few different characters in the film.

SPEAKER_01: 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 20:39

Um like smaller characters. Because I've so I've got an Aussie agent as well.

SPEAKER_01: 20:43

Oh really?

SPEAKER_05: 20:44

Um because because my parents live out in Australia, yeah, yeah. It was it was quiet a few years ago, it was it was quite quiet. So I was like, well, do you know what? I've got right to work in Australia. Yeah. I live in the UK, but I've got a right to work in Australia, so you don't need to worry about visas uh and and stuff. So I was just like, oh might as well double my chances, see if there's anything fun over there, and got got uh got an agent in Australia. So this the Robbie tape was through my British agent and then this was through through my my my Aussie agent. Uh got little like little little parts in the film. And I was thinking, oh, I'm not gonna fly out for one day on set because it will it'll it won't cover my flights, you know. I'll end up losing money. Yeah but I was like, I'll just do them anyway and see what happens. My agent was like, Yeah, just do them because you don't know what'll come from them. So I did them, and then they were like, actually, could you tape for this? And I taped for Gary. Um then I taped for Guy Chambers, yeah. And then I taped for Nate. Uh it was Tate at the time, actually, I think. Yeah. Um and then I sent that tape in, they came back like a day later and said, Um, can you can you jump on Zoom? Jumped on Zoom, met them, had like a two-hour Zoom with them.

SPEAKER_02: 21:49

And that was Simon and Simon and Michael.

SPEAKER_05: 21:51

Simon and Michael, yeah, it was the middle of the night in in Melbourne. Um Simon was in his spare room at like 3 a.m. Um trying to keep his voice down because his kids were asleep. Yeah. Um, yeah, but it was it was like kind of pedal to the floor because the day after I got the offer and they were like, okay, you're gonna jump on a flight in like three days. Uh really you'll be out in Australia for five months. Yeah, it was such a quick turnaround. Yeah. Such a quick turnaround.

SPEAKER_02: 22:18

Dude. Mine was mine was torture. Yeah, yeah. That's wild. Eight months, I didn't hear a thing. Every now and then I would get a I'd get a call from my agent being like, you're still on hold. You're still like, they want you to play him, but they just need to check a few things. And this was still for Liam, right? Yeah, okay. And so I was still in Liam World for like eight months, and eventually I just kind of had to let it go because I was torture, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 22:46

And so so you were on set with uh I mean, so they flew me over, they flew they flew a few people over. They flew um the guy who played Liam in the end, they flew over, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:55

He was he was beautiful, he was from Liverpool. He was a lovely dude, he was funny ass, man.

SPEAKER_05: 23:00

I bet he was it exactly like Liam, dude. I think I I I remember I was I was I think I was on set the same day as you actually, because I remember seeing him. Oh they've done a yeah, I think because the um because you could the snooker I remember I I was I in the morning when I came in, I think I was maybe doing like rehearsal or something, but I played snooker with John O in that big room that you shot in.

SPEAKER_01: 23:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 23:22

Um and we wrecked the snooker table. What do you mean? I was I was leaning for a shot and I I fell over and um pierced the felt on the snooker table and I was in in a lot of trouble.

SPEAKER_02: 23:37

Oh there you were, man. Well, they were smashing like fake glasses on that and flying on it and doing coke off it and stuff, and it was a cool place that wasn't it? It was cool, it was like a manor.

SPEAKER_05: 23:48

It's I don't I don't know what it was usually used for, but it was a very cool place. I sort of felt like that the whole way through the shoot because obviously it was all in Australia and doubling for like London and and Stoke and you go into these weird buildings and yeah, they they've done such a good job kind of decking them out. Man, it was such a trip, man.

SPEAKER_02: 24:09

It went so quick too. Yeah, envious of like having five months, you know, to to work. It went so quick for me as well.

SPEAKER_05: 24:15

I mean, I was there for five months, but I wasn't it's this I've sort of talked about it being like two films in one, right? There's this there's the big sort of blockbuster stuff, and then there's the stuff that is like a kitchen sink drama. Yeah. And I only did that stuff. So naturally that stuff took less time to film, you know. Yeah. So I actually I was there for five months and I did a couple of weeks rehearsal, but I think I was probably only on set for like two or three weeks. Really? Um, like cumulatively. Yeah, yeah. Because like, oh, they were like, oh, we're doing this next, we're doing this dance scene and we're spending two weeks on it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 24:47

So how'd you spend your how'd you spend your time in Melbourne?

SPEAKER_05: 24:49

Well, I my family are there, so that was it was nice to sort of like spend time with them. I was staying with my sister in Melbourne. Um, honestly, just eating my way around Melbourne. Yeah, man. I love that city. I love it.

SPEAKER_03: 25:00

It's a city, yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_05: 25:02

So much to be. I'm a big foodie, so um, yeah, I think it's one of my favourite food cities in the world. So I spent my um my time and my entire wage on sort of food in the city. Yeah, yeah. Played some golf, golf with the lads, yeah. Yeah, nice. Um but it's quite isolating, you know? It was quite I I mean, I didn't yeah, I didn't have many people to sort of hang around with um because all my stuff was sort of just me. Um so yeah, it was a funny old it was a funny old job. It's definitely the biggest thing I've ever done and felt like the most momentous thing I'd ever done. But actually the process of filming it was great on the set, but kind of quite lonely, actually. Um not much going on between and then I mean you've you've I'm so impressed by what you what you've made of it, what you you what what you made of of the the sort of release and and thanks man and how you made more work from it is.

SPEAKER_02: 25:55

It really scraped the barrel for it, man.

SPEAKER_05: 25:57

No, but it's so cool. I I really respect that. I I don't know, I found it really hard when it was released. It was um I guess and you'll know this as well, like when when you do a a sort of bigger job like this, you've got people in your ear on the producers and productions, it's saying this is we're gonna make you a star, this is gonna you know, it's this is this is it. And I've had it a few times before, and I sort of obviously take that with a pinch of salt now. But then when when it does happen and things don't go quite the way that you'd want them, and you you sense that that people's priorities are in a different place, it's yeah, it's it's tough. I f I find that something I've talked about before. I've got a friend who is uh a really great writer, um Kelsey Swintec, and she she runs a a Substack and she does a um a series where she interviews interviews artists. Um and she's a a really, really close friend. And I did uh about three or four years ago, maybe three years ago, I I did an interview with her and and it became about this this thing that I have where I struggle to separate the profession of acting from the craft of acting.

SPEAKER_03: 27:09

I see, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:10

And and I I feel exactly the same way now, three years on, but the profession stuff, all the like naughty, businessy, like logistical things that are a bit shitty and not that fun.

SPEAKER_04: 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:22

Or a bit shitty and not that fun a lot of the time, and sometimes incredibly fun and intoxicating, like when you get to do red carpets and things. I I love that. You know, that's that's all wrapped up in that side of it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:35

And then the actual craft of acting, the the like the the the the skills, the craft, being on set and doing the work, yeah, that's sort of infected by that sometimes. Yeah. And it feels like it's it's hard for me to separate both. It's hard for me to think about one without thinking about the other. And if if the professional side's not going good, then I I I find it hard to focus on the on the craft stuff. Do you get what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: 28:01

Yeah, I know what you mean. You you sort of feel a lot of pressure because an acting career is going to fluctuate like that. And when it's in a lull, or after a big film like like you know, or a massive role like like yours, there's gotta be a come down, right? And yeah, it would be really hard to like separate yourself from uh how you think you're being perceived or how you how you think your career is going, and letting that affect your work, the actual craft of of of um or your art, the art itself, you know. So how do you cope with that? Like how do you deal with that? Or what's that like for you now?

SPEAKER_05: 28:37

I don't know, it's it's it's tough. It's something that I always I mean, I think it's it's all wrapped up in identity as well, right? It's like I am I am an actor. That's how I sort of identify. I identify as an actor. What does that mean? Does that mean I identify as like a working professional, a professional actor, or does that mean I identify as someone who who who acts, can act, who like practices the craft of acting, yeah. And it gets muddy, and so even if one bit is going really well, the other bit might not be. And I don't know, I just how do I deal with it? Um badly. Um I came out of drama school and everyone was like, oh, Fraser's the one that's he's he's so good at like professional development and networking, and and and you know what I was I was really confident and I got myself in rooms that otherwise I wouldn't get in. I remember I I I got I got a really, really lovely theatre job just from back in the in the Twitter days. I remember following the director on Twitter, messaging him in saying, Oh, I love this work that I saw. Have you got any roles going in your next show? And he was like, Yeah, send me a tape for this. And I put it awesome, man. Yeah, that's the one that's good. And uh other things off the back of that. Like I I was I was really kind of tenacious and and driven and I I got results. And then I mean the world sort of changed and My relationship with the sort of industry has has changed and I've realized that it's not all plain sailing. No. And I've had some like really, really like disappointing moments, some really kind of heartbreaking moments. I don't want to say I've become jaded because I've I don't think I have become jaded, but realised I've realized that that that it's maybe not quite as as straightforward as I as as I thought it was, and as I was finding it initially, and and just coming to terms with with the fact that yeah, it I mean everyone says, oh yeah, there's peaks and troughs, everyone says that. Yeah. And I was always like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And no matter how many times people say it to you, when you're riding a high, yeah, and there's a couple of things happen in a row, you're like, oh, maybe this is it. Maybe like, maybe the peaks and troughs isn't for me. Maybe I'm I'm going to Hollywood, maybe I'm sustaining an amazing career where I get to play all these really cool roles.

SPEAKER_02: 30:52

Yeah, maybe I'm wrestling one out that that gets to ride it forever, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 30:56

And then when you hit the then then then the the you've got further to fall then. And then the the lulls really hurt. Yeah. And I mean, when you're in a something like this, um, or I did a uh a TV show for for a few years, and it's like, oh, is this is this a thing that's gonna that's gonna make it slightly easier? And the reason I want it to be slightly easier is I love doing the work and I feel like if I didn't have the distraction and the worry, I could enjoy it more. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yeah. Yeah, because once it's over, it's it's over, and then you're just unemployed again and it's or once it's once it's over, once you've done the work, then I spend a year waiting for this film to go out going think thinking like, how can I how can I capitalize on this and make it as useful as possible so then I can do other stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 31:48

Yeah, you know? It is really scary, and even even with what I like I I really milked this whole thing for what it's worth. Like what I present myself as, and like you, you know, you're talking about um identity, right? And how I present myself as an actor. Like I'm an actor because I can do it, and if a job is given to me, I know I'll be able to put in the work and and and do it, right? Yeah, but then the professionalism side to me is sort of keeping up appearances, you know, and presenting myself as this thing and sort of developing a bit of a brand, but still being genuine, but but you know, it it it makes it look like this is my life all the time, which is I think what an audience wants to believe about an actor, you know. But really, my life is like cleaning houses and and like spending hours just editing podcasts just to market ourselves, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05: 32:43

Like the thing that bothers me though is that like there's a there's an expectation, at least maybe maybe it's slightly different in the UK, but there's an expectation that I sort of hide that part of me. The the like the fact that I do other jobs, the fact that I do little bits and pieces, because there's like there's some sort of prestige attached to to being all in, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 33:01

I I know what you mean. And I mean I don't I don't know. I I don't really know. I don't think it's like a you know a UK or Australia thing. I think, yes, I think there's people that really firmly believe that you should hide the the reality of your life, you know, what it is like, you know, during those lulls. Um but I don't know. I I'm just trying this thing out. I'm trying this honesty thing out, I'm trying this like transparency thing and going, look, this is what it's really like. And and I don't really know who I'm can who I'm trying to connect to by doing this podcast or pulling back the curtain um in in these experiences. I don't know who I'm trying to connect to. I know I'm trying to connect to other actors because I I enjoy that and I enjoy meeting other actors and and especially actors that have been in the same projects as me that I haven't had the opportunity to actually chat to. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I get to learn so much about your experience on that on that film as well. But then you can't help but think like, am I going to hit a wall? And is, you know, what should I be doing? Should I get a different job? You know, should I be a little smarter with my time and my how I invest my time? And then I think you have to sort of go back to why you're doing the actual art, why you're doing that. We just want to act. And I think it's easy to get caught up in this meritocracy idea where you think, I've done this, I've done this job, I've done this massive film. And so the next thing I do is going to be a step up from that, and the next thing I do is gonna be a step up from that. And maybe that's why I'm doing this podcast, is because it's the truth of what it's really like. Um, at least for me, and I live in a city where you shouldn't, if you want to pursue an acting career, you should get out of this city. Like Adelaide is not the place to pursue an acting career, but I'm pretty defined, and I think we have great facilities here, and I think why not?

SPEAKER_05: 34:54

But like I've there's yeah, Adelaide projects keep popping up in my inbox.

SPEAKER_02: 34:59

So if you're getting them, man, if you're getting them.

SPEAKER_05: 35:01

What I've noticed though is that like from listening to the the chats that you've had with your pals, is that like there seem to be a real community in Adelaide. Yeah. They're all making work together and doing shorts and music videos and and and you seem to be on the same jobs. Whereas here, yeah, there's more, there's more sort of there's maybe more kind of large scale work happening regularly in London, but there's not, or at least I've not found the same sort of community. I mean I've got obviously I've got pals who are in the same industry, but then that what that then means is that I'm more reliant on the system. So I'm more worried about what the system's doing. So it's like, yeah, how am I gonna I mean that this this year I've had a I've had a rough go with it with my with my um I I I was with uh I I've changed representation um recently, um which is great, it's a really positive move in the UK. Yeah, yeah. It's a really positive move and I'm yeah I'm really happy now. But for a long time I maybe wasn't, and and like just the anxiety when it when an email comes through and all those like yeah, those the the the sort of like negative feelings that then become like attached kind of by proxy to to the to the stuff that you love doing. Yeah. But just like finding a new agent and having to have all those having to do all those meetings and and the sticky thing of like leaving an old agent, and that's when when I I I have to do that. I have to do that because that's how I get that's that's the route that the that the sort of opportunities come to me. Yeah. Whereas, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels like where you are, at least from listening to to to the to the chats that you had on this podcast, like you've got a there's a there's a there's more of a community, there's more of a let's make some stuff together, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 36:46

There is, but the difference is you're getting paid. We're not getting paid. Do you know what I mean? Like we're making stuff, and there's some really, really talented filmmakers here and really talented actors. Um, there are some big projects that come through, Adelaide, for sure. Like we have really amazing facilities here and a lot, a lot gets filmed here. But the I think the community is so tight because we've sort of got this solidarity in that, like, you know, we're all broke ass actors that just want to act, and you know, we're getting we're getting uh runs on the board and we're getting reps in front of a lens and everything, but we're not surviving off acting, you know. We all have to, it's all in between stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 37:25

I know, but that's the thing, right? That's the that's the thing. Like ultimately, like, neither am I. I'm not getting paid when I'm not working here.

SPEAKER_01: 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 37:33

Um but then I'm not I'm not necessarily having the same kind of run out as you are with with talented people making stuff. And look, I've I've made stuff with friends and it's great, and it's it's it but it just doesn't happen as much here because it doesn't feel like there's a the same sort of time-knit community. Do you know what I mean? Because like you could book a big job tomorrow and then you get paid. I could book a big job tomorrow and then I get paid. But we could both not book a job for ten years. Yeah. And touch one.

SPEAKER_02: 38:05

And then neither neither of us are practicing during that time if if we're not out there, you know, with the community making stuff. I see what you mean. I I was just I kind of went into a in into my head there for a second because I was thinking, because hearing the way you're speaking about you know my city and and the community that I'm in, it it sounds very appealing the way you put it. And it is like I love my community, but I think there's always this grass is greener idea. Of course, yeah. You know, because I you know, because the the rhetoric has always been you've got to get out of Adelaide. Like anytime I'm on a on a commercial or or if I go to Melbourne for a film or or anything like that, it's like, why why are you living in Adelaide? Why didn't you come here? And I know that there are more opportunities there, like there's more opportunities in Melbourne and Sydney or the UK or but there's more there's more people there, right? There's yes, like it's a bigger pond, right? So there's more competition. And and then even if I was in Melbourne, I'd be relying on my online presence to get my name out there anyway. I I probably shouldn't shouldn't have told anyone when I started this thing that I'm based in Adelaide. In Adelaide, yeah. Yeah, but you know what? I I also want people to know that Adelaide is a fucking great city. Uh with it's got a lot of really good talent and really good facilities. I'm I'm really I'm I don't know why I'm talking to you about Adelaide, man, like this guy that lives on the other side of the world, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_05: 39:26

It sort of resonates like like I've we've um my wife and I are expecting a baby at the moment. Oh mate, congrats, dude. Yeah, that's awesome. Nice. So there's lots of existential sort of big questions going on at the moment. Yeah, yeah. Um but we've been talking about like when can we move out of London? When when can we get away? Because my wife's in TV and film as well. Like when when can we when can we get away from this and go and be in a place that we want to be and still dip in and do the things that we want to do? Because ultimately, like like I book jobs. Why am I in London? Like I'm I'm I'm in London because you need to be in London if you're an actor in the in the UK, which is what everyone says. But like I booked Better Man and that filmed in Melbourne. So I was in Melbourne for five months. I did a a TV show for two years that I I booked in London, but it filmed in Sydney. Like I do other things and like I'm in in Belgium or Manchester or Prague, and like I'm I very rarely am actually in London for for any of the actual jobs. So why do I need to be here?

SPEAKER_01: 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 40:30

I mean, I know that like there's there's little bits that film in in there there are good projects that film in Adelaide. I mean, I had one in my inbox like last week.

SPEAKER_00: 40:38

But like sweet, I didn't have ones fucking wrong. Yeah, did you not? Call my agent.

SPEAKER_05: 40:44

But you could book a job and they put you you booked a job in Melbourne and they put you up in a hotel and it's fine, and then you Yes, yeah, it's like yeah, it frustrates that it really frustrates me the idea that you you you have to be somewhere for the like to show that you're you're committed to the bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 41:00

Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. It's very old school, it's very like pre-internet and very uh it's pre-self-tape era, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 41:07

Yeah, we tape for everything now.

SPEAKER_02: 41:09

Yeah, like it's literally you can be wherever. I've done auditions like self-tapes for commercials. I did a self-tape for a commercial a few years ago, maybe maybe two years ago or something, and it was worth good money, right? So I got a call back, and my agent said, Can you be in Melbourne tomorrow morning at 9 a.m.? And I was like, Of course. Like for that money, I would of course, mate. So I jumped on a on the red eye bus and I was in the club.

SPEAKER_05: 41:35

You got a bush to Melbourne.

SPEAKER_02: 41:36

Yeah, it was because there were the flights were like$700. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, I'll just cat, I'll just sleep on the bus overnight. And I rocked up in the casting office the next morning. And they're like, thanks for coming in. I'm like, no worries, mate, it's around the corner. Oh yeah, just they didn't know I was in Adelaide, right? I wouldn't do that now just because why why do we do that?

SPEAKER_05: 41:55

Why what what money shouldn't be the point just a bit just to just to pick up on it? Like, if they said thanks for coming in, you were like, Yeah, yeah, no worries, absolutely fine. Why didn't you go, yeah, came from Adelaide?

SPEAKER_02: 42:05

Because they were only casting in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_05: 42:07

And you're there.

SPEAKER_02: 42:10

Well, the problem was, and this is what I what annoys me about this self-tape thing now, is self-tapes have they've become a preliminary audition now. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? They're not so the callback is the first audition now. Sure. Because I rocked up at that that callback, and they were like, they wanted guys with moustaches and mullets, and I I still had hair then, so I cut a mullet into my hair and um yeah, rocked up. But there were like 15 other guys in that casting office with mullets and moustaches, and I was like, this is not a callback, this is not top three. This is so you know, it was a waste of time. That's that's why I decided I'm not doing that again because the process has changed now, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 42:53

But even when even when someone asks me in tandem, like um if I'm in it doing a an audition or a or a voiceover or something, they're like, Oh, have you come far today? I was like, no, no, I've I've just round the corner. And it's it's not I've I've come into the city, I've I've I've made a lot of effort. Why am I hiding why am I why am I hiding the fact that I've made a lot of effort because I really want this, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 43:11

Yeah, I know I know what you mean. Like we do have a tendency to suck up and and sort of um downplay the effort, you know. We don't want to complain though. Because you know, yeah, I am grateful for every every opportunity, and I was grateful to be c called into the the office in Melbourne, like but yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 43:29

Although it's quite I I think I had a I had a sort of a moment. My um so my wife's a producer, yeah. Um and she was obviously during COVID, she was working from home, and we were both in this one bedroom flat, so sort of on top of each other. Yeah. And she was casting a TV show, or she wasn't casting, the the production company was casting a TV show, yeah. Um big, big old TV show, um, during during the pandemic, and it was gonna be shooting in like 2021, 2020, maybe, but she'd get the casting stuff through. Um, so the casting director was was casting all these parts, yeah, and the tapes came through and they got put on a system. And I remember getting a getting a message from my agent saying, Look, there's a part in in the show that your wife's producing. Do you do you want to go up for it? It's not massive. I was like, Yeah, go on, I'll I'll I'll go up for it. It's it's it's my wife's show, you know. It'd be great to be able to it would only be like a a few days on set, but but would be it would be great to work with her. So yeah, of course, I'll go up for it. Yeah. And and I taped with her. Yeah. And it was a really good tape, and we were really really pleased with it. I was like, Yeah, this is this is great. Sent it in. Um and she wasn't making the decisions, you know, she was she was privy to the decisions, but she wasn't making the decisions. Yeah. And I remember sitting next to her and just sort of like looking over her shoulder, and it's like the next tranche of tapes are in, and she pulled it up and it was the system. And it for this for this one kind of like three three scene role, the headshots popped up, and you click on the headshots and the and the tape comes up. Yeah. Um, and there were I think 35 headshots. Wow. Yeah. And you could see which the director has opened.

SPEAKER_02: 45:11

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05: 45:13

And he'd opened three of them. Yeah. And he'd gone, yeah, that'll do. So there's like 30 people that have taped and put all this effort in. Yeah. And the tape's not even been watched. And I was like, I can't believe, I can't believe that like I'm doing all this work and it's not what's it for? It's not no one's seeing it, and it's not it just sort of felt kind of helpless.

SPEAKER_02: 45:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 45:37

So I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's quite like that anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 45:40

But I don't I don't know. I it I think it depends who's who's casting. Casting, yeah. But I think it's good to know that in a sense. Like it's good to know the truth of and you can understand, like, a director doesn't have time to go through 35 tapes necessarily. They are gonna just have to go come down to the thumbnail in the end and say, it's a small role, it's a couple of days, you know, or it's a day, it's a it's a day player role. We I can't put too much work into this because I've got a schedule as well, right? But I think as an actor, it's important to know that that is a reality. So what do you do about that? You know, how does that change the way that you work? How does it change the way that you approach self-tapes or or getting your hopes up or anything? Because I know for me, like I would I kind of make a make a call on on a project and say, all right, what's it worth? Where is it shot? How many days of work am I gonna miss because of this? You know, am I gonna actually lose money because I'm not actually working my my survival job, you know? And you still go for it, of course, because you know, it's an opportunity and you never know, you might be you might be one of them that you p that they click on. And it shows the casting directors that you are gonna be reliable and you are gonna send in a tape, but maybe it comes down to I I'm not gonna put in three hours of effort doing this self-tape, I'm just gonna get it done to send it off. I mean, how how would that affect your approach to a to a job, knowing that information?

SPEAKER_05: 47:16

I don't know, it's like uh to bring it back to what I was talking about before. It's that again, then that's like the inescapable, weird, knotty, businessy, logistical side, then it affects my what what I'd ultimately do. I I guess for a while it did. I felt like a pressure to get a job rather than do a than than do good work for it for a while. It felt kind of very that felt like the most important thing. Yeah. But actually recently, there's something freeing about knowing that as well. Yes. And and then you just you just do it because as just as much as as I mean if if you do it and you're just a thumbnail, yeah, and they open it, they'll go, yeah, that's fine. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I th I think I think I think ultimately when I'm when I'm freer and not bothered about getting the role, or not bothered about booking a job rather than getting the the role. I'm getting a job as like a a conceptual thing. I'm I'm I I tend to do better stuff because I'm less I do better stuff when I'm when I'm in a rush. Yeah. Honestly. When I've not got as much time to worry about things. Yeah. So actually knowing that like, oh, ultimately, yeah, the this is like this is a long shot anyway. So let me just like bash this out, yeah, get it in. And that's sometimes the best stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02: 48:36

I think so. Unburdened expectation and that's always been my best work when I haven't expected to get it. Like Better Man. Like I didn't expect. There's no way. There was no way I was gonna get get it.

SPEAKER_05: 48:48

But man, I saw I saw your tape for that, and like it's the the there's yeah, there's like effort and craft and and and yeah, it's it's not blowing smoke up your ass, but like the honestly, the the watching that tape, I remember when you posted it, I was like, do you know what? I'm this is maybe gonna like change how I approach the next few things that come up. I'm gonna really think about it and like and think about what I can what I can do that makes it stand out rather than just blank wall, like yeah, something you know, like Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02: 49:24

Did you go to like drama school or like what I didn't I don't really know anything about your training or anything, but yeah, um we'll get into we'll get into I want to get into that, but my first question before we get into that, I really want to hear the history of of all the education, everything. But do you think all that, like going to drama school, has implemented certain rules into your head, and do you think those rules have kind of restricted you ever?

SPEAKER_05: 49:47

Yeah, one 100%. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I realize that more and more now.

SPEAKER_01: 49:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 49:55

I mean, just just simple things like I mean, especially the way that training works in the UK, it's the these big sort of like older, prestigious institutions that that have operated in a sort of the same way for a long time. I think I think maybe they're changing now. Um they've changed since I've left, they've sort of they're developing and changing and and and evolving into something sort of more productive, I don't know. But at the time, yeah, we were told things that just were patently untrue. Like casting directors don't want if someone's reading you with you in a self-tape, they have to read in like a monotone voice. Yeah. It's like why that's a rule, right? Uh that's absol and and we and we we all came out of drama school and we did that.

SPEAKER_02: 50:37

And yeah, it's so strange. Because I and I I don't know how much you've listened to the podcast, but I've harped on we I've had a few conversations about the sort of the comparison, right? The the two different pathways, you know, training and and just sort of jumping into it and seeing if you can do it. Yeah. But I I I kind of like the approach that I've developed. I kind of feel it's a little bit defiant and and ex explorative and and gritty, and like, you know what, I'm just gonna do it my way and I'm gonna see what happens. And you'll get me. Like you'll get you'll get the character, but like you'll get my approach to this thing, and then they're getting something individual. And I I I think that's worth something, right?

SPEAKER_05: 51:23

And but but I'm also it's that's that's like objectively, yes. Yeah, that's well because why would you do it any other way? Yeah, because what what are you what's the benefit of doing it any other way?

SPEAKER_02: 51:35

Well, how are you gonna how are you gonna stand out if you're just trying to emulate what everyone else is doing, right?

SPEAKER_05: 51:41

And if that if that is the case, then you can cast from headshots because you know that if anyone has like a training or credits, you know that they are like technically capable to a certain level. Yeah, and professional, then like just look at the headshot and see if they're right, and then cast from that. If you're look if you want more, then what are you looking for? Surely you're looking for my perspective, my my my interpretation. Yeah, and so then interpret it. I got told a story about Letitia Wright going for I can't remember what role it was that she was going for, but she was taping for a role, and Daniel Callier read with her. Oh, right, yeah, um, like off camera, and I've seen the tape, yeah, and it is like phenomenal. It's two actors acting, it's just one of them's on screen. Yes, yeah, one of them's in frame, and two actors acting, and like because she's getting amazing stuff from him and he's getting amazing stuff from her, it feels like a scene, it feels like it's working.

SPEAKER_01: 52:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 52:29

I just feel like and and and she booked the role. Um but I feel like you don't you don't get that if you I did a I've got I've got a tape that's just come in now, actually, and um it's for a really cool project, really lovely script. And I'm like, oh, I'm quite excited about this. I was thinking about who I'm gonna who I could tape it with. Yeah. And like just the idea, it's so kind of like really kind of emotional, kind of it's all about the rhythm and about rhythm and tempo. And like, if you read that with like a someone who's giving you a cold read, yeah, it's just it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_02: 53:02

It's gonna put you off too, yeah. And you're not gonna do your best work if it's it's stilted and and and like he's he's in the scene, he's on his phone.

SPEAKER_05: 53:11

So why wouldn't I be on my phone in the scene? Because that was another rule, no props. Oh really? No props, no coffee. See, I'm glad I didn't know the rules, man. Yeah, mate, but but that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02: 53:20

I saw you, I saw your tape and it was like, oh. Like I knew I knew I knew some of the rules, but uh, you know, you know what what it was? Because before that I was uh you know following the rules with like and I still do like um I I really I don't want to be the guy that's like break all the rules, don't go to drama school. Like I I really think I missed out on a lot of really in important um you know education with by not going to to drama school, right? But I think there's not one way to go about it, like there's there's there's other other pathways in, and there there are benefits from that other pathway as well, right? That's that's sort of what I'm getting at. But I used to tape with you know blank wall, and I still do um most of the time. But this for better man, for that particular audition, the script said he he walks through his labyrinth of a house, right? And so I thought, why would I why don't I just shoot it in my living room? Yeah, because I've got this I was living with housemates and the living room was kind of eclectic and had you know this funky green velvet couch and this you know cool little coffee table and had to do the walk and everything. So I thought, why wouldn't I just shoot it in a living room, you know? But I I it was around that time, like everyone was doing this. Like, did you ever see the DACRA? Uh is it Dacra D.

SPEAKER_05: 54:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:37

The Stranger Things. Stranger Things. So that was like that had just blown up online, right? So everyone was like, fuck the rules, man. Like, you know, yeah, take make a r take a risk and and do something out there, you know. So that was that was around that time. So I did that. And I and but I I always just thought the less that the casting directors need to imagine, the more chance you have of showing them what like you know, make it look like the scene's gonna be, you know. Yeah, and I'd also heard casting directors that I'd done workshops with, like I'd heard stories of big actors going for roles, and they basically shot the whole scene with a professional crew because it was because they could, and they were like, We've well, we've got to give them the role now because they've put all this effort in, but they they've shown us that they this is what they will look like in that scene.

SPEAKER_05: 55:26

And like I mean, and it was it was so great. I I bet any money they'll have had some more tapes where the people that are taping for that same role are against a black a blank wall doing it yeah, kind of the standard way. And maybe the way that you did it, maybe that that was the thing that that got you the job that got or or got you noticed, or got the, you know, like it's I think so.

SPEAKER_02: 55:52

Because when I did my callback, okay, this is actually kind of funny. I was doing a play, like it just an amateur theatre play. I just got back into acting and I was doing I was doing a play, and I was working with a really good friend of mine, and the Better Man audition came up, and she'd gone to a really um prestigious drama school here in Australia, right? And she was like, Why why would you shoot it in your living room? Like, all I'm looking at is the cat on the couch. Why would you flick the cigarette at the at the lens? Like, just stay in the stay in the shot, don't walk into the shot and all that. I was like, nah, man, like what have I got to lose? I'm not gonna get this gig. Like, don't worry about it. Let's just have some fun. Anyway, when I did the callback with Simon and Michael, Simon was just like, oh man, and when you walk around the table and you flick the cigarette, ah, it was so good, man. And I was like, right, so you know, it's make a choice, make a bold choice, stand out, do something interesting, but don't don't be arrogant about it. But like go with your gut, you know, have fun, be creative. That's what I think, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 56:56

There's a um my wife's uh a show that's just been on on Amazon at the moment, it's called The Girlfriend. I remember when the sort of casting stuff was coming through for that. Um I I was I wasn't in I didn't see any of that stuff, but she showed me one tape. Um the audition scene was in a swimming pool, and obviously no one did it in a swimming pool. Apart from the guy. But one apart from one guy who got yeah, exactly. Well, one guy got in a swimming pool and did the scene in a swimming pool, um, and he didn't get the role ultimately, but everyone in that casting office, everyone in the production team remembers it, was talking about it, yeah, they know who he is, it stood out, yeah, and it was ultimately one of the he was one of the people that got called in. He got he got he he got called into the final round auditions, and it was because his tape stood out, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 57:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 57:47

And I was like, I would never have done that. The the the to talk about drama schools a little bit, the the I think probably it's the same with like what what are the the the what's the big one in Australia? NIDA NARE is that the Whopper, yeah. Whopper in the UK it's like these big old royal institutions, Rada and Central School of Speech and Drama and and Lambda and all these these like prestigious institutions. Yeah, um I went to the Oxford School of Drama, yeah. Um I did a postgrad there, so I was only there for a year, but the way it's set up, it's it's set up to to to make to produce theatre actors really in the UK. So I s when I first stepped on on set, I had no idea. I'd never had any beyond like a day or two, I'd never had any any camera training. No idea. No idea what I was doing. So it's all theatre stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 58:38

And the advice is so sort of outdated because like the I I guess the the way that these things used to run, I'm not sure so so much anymore. It's like they're retired directors or retired actors, or or they've retired from that or moved into teaching later. So these like old established names in in the theatre world now now come and do workshops. But and and you get great insight and and you pick up great skills from them and be able to develop in in amazing ways, but the the like professional development advice that they give is so outdated sometimes.

SPEAKER_00: 59:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 59:11

So I feel like actually when I came out of of drama school, I was maybe in a in some respects in a in a worse position to to get work than I was when I went in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:23

I think I think that's the I the the misconception that you sort of you sort of get is that you're gonna come out of drama school and and the industry's gonna come at you and be like, alright mate, you're you're up next, right? Yeah. Um but I think I think like from what from the discussions that I've had, like drama school is amazing for like learning how to act, right? And and and I think theatre training is the best way because like from from my my angle was a lot a fair bit of theatre, but like no formal theatre training, but like a lot of film, um, and and there was a A sort of idea in maybe in my city for a little while that was like you're either a theater actor or a screen actor. Um, which is bizarre because I think if you're not doing both, you are shooting yourself in the foot, you know. If you're just a screen actor and you you are not looking into at least doing some amateur theatre, you are missing out on a huge chunk of experience and education, right? Like self-education, right? But I think people are ignorant to the fact that the industry is evolving so rapidly and the technology is evolving so rapidly, it's evolving faster than we can even really predict. So I think that's what's sort of missing is people think that they if they just follow the rules and the steps now and you're not malleable to what they could form into, um, then the industry's just gonna come for you and you're gonna be fine. But I think you just need to be really on your toes about what you need to do to get this career moving, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:57

I think it's it's so uh in in the UK, it's such a like getting into drama school, it's it's like the in terms of like how stressed I've been in my my sort of acting career, the the drama school audition process was like w up there as like the the most stressful time. Incredibly difficult to get into any of these places. Yeah. Um it feels like a really big moment. It it costs a lot to to do that audition cycle. Yeah. You know, you go to like seven or eight places, you have all these like kind of quite brutal, like old school like stand on a stage with a panel in front of you, that sort of thing. It's it's it takes a lot. Then you finally, if you get in, you're like, oh, I made it. Now I should kind of implicitly trust everything that they say. Yes. Um because uh it was so it cost so much to get here that I'd be doing myself a disservice if I didn't kind of listen and and follow everything to the letter. But but but acting as an instinctive thing, right? And it's so much about what you bring to it that that it's not all it's it it can't be a one size fits all method, yeah, because that that disregards the the the certain thing that you bring. I mean, look, I got a lot of stuff out of drama school. I got amazing like technical voice training, and it was so many things were so useful. I got good professional connections, yeah. I I'm very grateful for the stuff that I did there. I went into drama school really confident in my own ability and really kind of instinctual, like in I'd follow my instincts, and that was when the most exciting stuff happened.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:34

And I was playful and free and confident. And drama school really tempered all that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:40

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:41

Like it really kind of it really kind of sanded down the edges, which yeah, maybe means I've got a a great technical kind of a a technical core to work from.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:52

But I felt especially what uh for the first few years, and still now, I'm more self-conscious. They've sort of compressed everything. And it's great in the middle. It sounds great right in the middle, but yeah, I don't get those sort of I don't get those like interesting, I don't access as easily those interesting sort of peaks and and little blips that make me interesting, you know? That it it took a while for me to find that again because I was I was sort of sort of neatly packaged as new drama school graduate.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:25

And we were all sort of in the same same-ish mould, you know? Um, whereas it's the sort of individuality that that really kind of I think makes performances interesting, right? And makes you and makes you interesting as a performer to other people who are gonna cast you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:40

Yeah, but like you said, like and I and I really gotta be careful for just like shitting on drama schools because I I don't think negatively about them. I'm just I'm just glad that I'm more justifying the pathway that I took because I I do feel like I missed out on some on a lot of really important aspects of of my training, right? Um but it's not too late for me. You know, I can pick up these other skills, you know, a new way.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:05

And and you will be on set. And for whatever you missed out on, you will have retained or gained other things that that that are missing for me, you know. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:17

And I think I think that's the important thing is that like there are positives and negatives from both pathways, and maybe post-drama school you're feeling like, oh, you know, my edges have been sanded down, and and you know, who where's my where's my grit, where's my individuality gone? But the truth is we are always evolving as artists, and and you know, I'm assuming you're quite young, like you look you look very young.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:42

I do look young, don't I?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:43

Yeah, you you're you are young, but like the we both have plenty of time, is my point, you know. And we will both continue to develop as artists and and and you know, build those those sharper edges again. And we have plenty of time to develop that. And I think that's the fun part now is discovering that as we work through this industry and work through our careers, you know what I mean? Like, so we could we could look back and say, Oh, I missed out on this, or I I lost this from this experience. But you know, if you had it before, doesn't mean that means it's it's still in there somewhere. Do you know what I mean? Like we can still find that, you know, you can get that back, and and now you've also on top of that, you've got all these amazing skills that you learned in drama school.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:28

And yeah, I mean it was a long time ago now. It's what I I've graduated from drama school 10 years ago, so um it's you know, I've I've I've I'm a different person now from from when I came out, and I don't yeah, I don't think negatively about drama schools. No, of course, and I think they're very different now. Yeah, I think honestly, the last 10 years and the the pandemic, but also like the Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter, all the like there's been sort of big institutional shifts in the way that that things are approached and the sensitivities around certain subjects. And I mean I've worked with new grads recently, and I mean they're great and really push me, and and yeah, it's I think maybe it was sort of the end of an era when I was I caught I caught the end of an era or a change in the guard, you know, when I when I was there. Yeah, um, so I think it's maybe slightly different now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:18

And that's what I mean. Like the the industry is constantly evolving and it's evolving so quickly, you know, these institutions surely would be evolving, and and society changes constantly, you know. Um it's not doing so well right now. No. Anyway, so what happened after after drama school though? Because you were going for you were auditioning for Gary and Guy and is that right? Like in Betterman, like th these are very dance-heavy, um, you know, yeah, musical.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:52

I mean, I'm not a dancer. I so I I trained I trained in acting, yeah. Um but my first job out of drama school um in 2015 was um uh calendar girls the musical. Um so I I I came out of drama school, I got an agent, and I went straight into the West End for a year. Wow in in a musical, and it was so cool. I mean, I was at the time I was like, this is easy, it's great, it's yeah. And West West End within like a week of leaving drama school, great. I this is you know, it's plane sailing from here. Yeah, but um but no, I was in that that musical which was um and and Gary Gary Barlow wrote all the music for that, actually. So I seem to do like I exclusively do projects sired by members of Take That.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:41

Of course, yeah, no, you gotta have your criteria, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:43

Yeah, I'm doing the the Mark Owen audiobook next, I think. Um yeah, so I did I did that for a year and that was that was great. And actually, I was quite lucky early early on to work in these sort of big theatre casts in prestigious sort of theatres in in in London with lots of older experienced actors. So in Calendar Girls, um there was like because it's uh older ladies mainly. Yeah, they were these really, really experienced, sort of like grand theatre dames who I was learning from. And it's of course some of them had a really specific style, some of them were very musical theatre. I remember Joanna Riding was the lead of of of that show, one of the leads of that show, and she's like three-time Olivier winner, um, like the the sort of like pinnacle of UK musical theatre, and Claire Moore was the these these these two kind of like musical theatre titans. Yeah, yeah. And I used to come in on my days off when I wasn't called just to watch.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:45

Just to watch them work.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:47

Absolutely. Why wouldn't you, man? That's um such amazing opportunity, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:51

I went from there to the National Theatre and similarly had had a I was in a cast of 30 at the National. Uh we did a play called Absolute Hell by uh Rodney Ackland, so like an old play, and it wasn't it wasn't very good in the end. But the it was like a four-hour epic in but on the Littleton stage at the National, it was this amazing, like big production. Yeah, and we had so Kate Fleetwood and Charlie Edwards and Jonathan Slinger and Danny Webb, these huge, huge theatre actors with this this incredible pedigree in the UK. Yeah, and watching them, watching them work was just like ah, it it was incredible. I've never quite had that again with those sort of watching those older actors do their thing. Yeah. But I learned so much. I learned so much there. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to be in those in those rehearsal rooms and it's amazing, man. And have the privilege of watching those those those old school actors working.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:47

Yeah, I'm glad that you took that opportunity and you saw you saw the opportunity in that to, you know, this is like the best school you can go to right now is to just be um amongst these amazing actors and watch watch what they do and learn from them.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:03

It's like Yeah, and be in it and be in it and get to like and and and get to sort of interact in the world. And then there's the thing that that I really took from that was was like a lightness of touch. Yeah. They're incredibly this show that we did at the national was it was four hours long. Yeah, it was quite heavy, yeah, it was very wordy, and we were all on stage the entire time. We were set in a private members' club, so we were all sort of like milling about. There was a lot of sort of um interesting like uh sort of interpretive choreography going on in the background and like walking around and stuff. So we spent four hours on stage together, often like in the backgrounds. And I watched I watched like Charlie, Charlie Edwards do Charles Edwards do these these amazing uh pour his heart out and do this this the most amazing work. And I was like, wow, look at that. And then 30 seconds later, he'd be sort of pissing about the back with us, yeah. Um sort of like messing around. And it's the it's the the playfulness. Yes, yeah. The playfulness that you can still kind of like foster in those in those big spaces and in those um heavy roles, those heavy roles and and but there's something about the the the sort of weight of responsibility of that I felt of performing at the national as well. Yes, of course, yeah. And also I was like, I don't want to be sacked, like it's it feels like a big pressure, you know? Yeah. But to see to see how those actors then were able to to to to to be playful and light and and that was what made it feel so electric and sparky. Yes. Was was the their their their ability to sort of like dip in and out and and play with it and not not that they weren't committed because they were, they were giving the most incredible like emotive performances.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:48

Yeah, but they weren't I mean I I could imagine that they were probably also feeling naturally a lot of pressure themselves, you know, because we all do, and I I don't think that ever goes away. I don't think it I don't think it matters who you are. But to not take your like take the work very seriously, but not take yourself seriously is the key to removing yourself from that pressure and being like, isn't this fun? Isn't this crazy? Look at us, look, look at this life that I'm living, you know?

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:13

I'm on the not not taking it for granted, and yes, they've done it so many times, and yet they still find the fun in it. Yes, that was the thing that I took. Um but to to answer your question, sorry I went on a tangent. But did I ask a question? The answer to your question was yeah, no, I'm not a dancer. I ended up in a musical, but didn't didn't have any dancing in it. But no, I'm not. But then because I did a musical my first job out of drama school, I was in the the ensemble of a musical, right? Casting directors and and and people then assumed that I could dance, and they see that on my CV still and go, Oh, a musical, yeah, you'd love to dance. Um, I remember I did a I I got sent in for an audition for Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, um a tour in the UK, and I went in uh and I was wearing like chinos and boat shoes, yeah, and I went into the audition and they were like it's a dance call, and there's people in like workout gear and people have that like their their legs up over their heads, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:11

And I was like, I it sounds like it sounds like the the the saying in Better Man, the take that auditions when he Yeah, it's quite like that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:20

I turned I turned round and went straight out. Um really I think I I don't think I mean the the dance the dancing in Better Man was so amazing, but I think if you Jake who played Gary in the end, I think would would would quite happily admit that he wasn't a dancer before going in. But it's just like if you work if you work with the best, the best choreographers and like And they put the hours in, you know. Yeah, they can and they and they those boys really put the hours in. Yeah. I've never seen yeah, honestly, the the take that boys were in rehearsals every single day for like six or seven weeks before shooting, yeah. Um and they had personal training sessions, and I was like, oh yeah, that was a bit a bit cool uh sort of a cool role to play where you get that sort of that sort of attention. Yeah, but yeah, they looked great in the final film, but no, I would I was not a dancer, and I am glad that I didn't have to show them any dancing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:15

Yeah, right. It was interesting that they were still like looking at non-dancers for casting. That's that's pretty interesting. Hey, although some of those boys in in in take that were like, I mean, Chase, what's Chase's surname? Uh Chase Polomoto, yeah. He's he is it he is a dancer. He's an unclean, not just a dancer, he's I don't know how he moves like that. It's it's not human, it's amazing. Yeah, he's incredible.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:40

He's just been on tour with Kylie for like um uh the last year. And then Jesse Hyde, who plays Mark, is also a dancer, yeah, great actor as well, but a dancer. And then Liam, who played Howard, was um he's uh he dances, he's a he's a musical theatre actor. Yeah, he's a really accomplished musical theatre actor. He's in Wicked at the moment. But yeah, I don't think Jake was.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:03

Jake is so lovely. He came he came to set the day that we shot the Oasis scene. Oh, right, okay. He didn't need to be there, but he just wanted to see it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:10

Well it's fun that though, isn't it? That's but that's the that's the great thing, and I love that in actors, like the yeah, and it's something that I always try and remind myself to do. It's like be excited, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:19

Because you get to to see stuff, you get to it's only gonna happen once a film, you know, you're only gonna be on Better Man once. Exactly, right? Oh mate, if I if I could have been on set more days, I would have like when they when they're like Chris, you're done, you can you can go home.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:32

I was like, no, no, mate.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:35

I'm here, dude.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:36

Oh I did I I I was really sad when I rapped on that film and then I got home to the UK and unexpectedly had like loads of reshoots in in the UK. It was lovely every time I got to go back in and go, Oh yeah, another little another little go. Um I'm not ready to start. I know. I filmed the the very last shot that they filmed of the uh for the film. The film was picture locked, pretty much, and they got a shot of me. Um, and we filmed it like I think it was it was like a couple of weeks before it went to tell your ride.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:07

And they were like, we just need another shot. And so unexpectedly they were like, Can you come in tomorrow for a better man reshoot? I was like, I rapped on that like a year ago.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:14

Um, but I went into we did it, we filmed it in a in a nightclub in Shoreditch, and it was just it was so funny that the the the sort of scope of that film, it it because it's such a massive film, but it is still an indie. So I went in to do this reshoot, and it was Michael, yeah, Simon Gleason, the writer, who was holding, he was our he was our grip or our our our spot, he was like everything rolled into one. He was holding holding a light, really, and Eric the DOP who was on a little tiny camera, and it was the three of them. And I was like, and they were filming on this sort sort of smallish camera in a nightclub and shortage. And I was like, I turned up and I was like, what do I wear? They were like, Oh, we hadn't thought about that. Holy shit. I was like, okay, um that's gonna try and find something because I'm in a I'm not in a I can't wear this. Like it doesn't look and they're like, yeah, and so they found something and someone had someone on something in a cupboard. Yeah. We'll put it on. And I was like, I can't believe that here are these three sort of massive creatives, yeah. They're in the weeds on this thing with me. We're filming this thing like on the fly, yeah, and that's going in the film. Yes. Alongside amazing, alongside like the thing that I shot where there was like 300 crew on on set, you know? Yeah, like what scene was that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:26

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:27

It's a tiny, tiny shot. It it's um there's a montage where Rob's sort of going off the rails and he's like um uh taking drinking, taking drugs, like he's he's sort of going off the rails and it's it's like really frenetic. And he passes out, and there's a shot of of Nate trying to wake him up, shaking him awake, going, Rob, wake up. Right. Um and that was the that was the shot, which was like in a in a nightclub toilet in Shoreditch. It was the morning we filmed it the morning after an England football game, and people have been watching it in the in the nightclub. Um and we went in to shoot it, and the place smelt so bad. Yeah, and we were shooting in this in this in this horrible toilet that hadn't been cleaned yet at like nine in the morning. Wow, and it was the three of them and me, and it made it into the film. That's so funny, man. Isn't that crazy? Alongside like it's so strange, the most intensely choreographed, like crude things shot in the best locations with the best equipment, and then this like iPhone shot made it in, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:28

Yeah, yeah, that is unreal, man. Yeah, you know, uh I was just thinking about Michael when I when I came to set, like it's such a big build-up, like eight months of being on hold to do this film and and not not even knowing if I was going to be in the film or anything or who I was playing, and then finally getting the call, and and then you know, within a couple of weeks I was on set. I was so nervous, and I I hardly ever get nervous, but like I was so nervous to meet Michael, and I I couldn't get a conversation like out of not out of him, like I'm I just couldn't converse. Like, and he and he he he gave me the time, like he sat down next to me on this couch in that on that set in that manor, whatever it was. He was clearly giving me the space to you know, you know, all right, mate, here you are, you know, let's have a chat. I was like, so you like Robbie Williams? But I couldn't get a conversation. That's my biggest regret is like not just making the most of that come of that time with him and and actually having a conversation with him. But you know, he's whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:30

He's just so he's so generous with his time, yeah. Um yeah, very nice, but he's incredibly intense and incredibly like incredibly like driven and he's like a savant, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:43

He's he's well there was a lot going on for him.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:45

I I gotta give him that. Like he was there's all but there's always a lot going on for him. I think all no matter what he's working on, whether it's Betterman or anything else. Um I know um my sister-in-law um worked with him on a on a commercial. Um it was just her and she was like dancing through the streets of Spain or something to for to promote I don't know, it was like iced tea or something. Yeah, yeah. Um but it's never simple. Like he's got this like amazing brain that like has a million different things going on at once. So like any set that he's on, it's not gonna be like a simple, oh, this is just an easy little like this is a simple little setup, we'll just do this. And he's it there's there's so much going on that that that he has to be like that, locked in and dialed in and intense and like yeah, like a million things happening in his head at once. Yeah, um I think that's why I could see that probably makes it what do I do here?

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:36

Like small talk? Like I can't really talk about the character. I'm like, look, man, I know I know Noel Gallagher, it's all good, you know. So I I just John O was great. Like John O was very like welcoming, and I think he could tell, you know, new guy on the set, he you know, got got me involved in in the conversation stuff. He was a sweet and and Jake as well, like very sweet guys, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:56

John O particularly is a is um talk about two guys that know how to sort of like uh take an opportunity and and and the weight and the responsibility that comes with that. They're both they're both so sort of sensitive around um they they knew what it meant and were and and and and handled that really well. But John O particularly, who I did all my stuff with, as you know, who's cast really late on. He was cast like a week before shooting started. Um came into this incredibly kind of like hectic environment. And Johnno John O had done great work before, but hadn't ever led, he'd not been a lead in anything before. A lead in a in a bit in a big movie before. But talk about someone that that is able to take it in their stride and like not only get into this this incredibly intense character that's never not on screen, so he's in everything, yeah, but also like step into that like that role of like leading a cast, yeah, yeah, leading an ensemble, and he really did. He was like, he knew that he was like he knew what his role was in the film, but also in in on on the set. He was the one that was able to like welcome people in. He made me feel so comfortable. It's like if I ever if I ever go on to lead something, I'll use him as an example of how to be on a set. Yes, such a generously talented guy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:15

I think I felt the same thing. I thought like that, so that's what you do. And and because he because I know he would have been feeling terrified, you know. I'm sure he told you the story about when he first met Robbie, and Robbie kind of comes in and sits in front of him and is like, all right, we've got mate.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:28

Oh really? Yeah, I was in the background, yeah. Oh, that's crazy. It was also like the day that what he doesn't say is he'd met everybody else only the day before. So he wasn't in this like incredibly like I'm sure he was still like getting to know Michael, getting to know everybody on set. Yes, so it's just he it wasn't like this one person came in, but don't worry, he had all these people to lean on. Yeah, yeah, he's it's you know, it was he's he's really yeah. I was blown away by how how well he took it in his stride and how he shouldered that responsibility and knew that uh despite whatever was going on in his head, because he also didn't he like didn't sleep for months because he was on set l massively long hours every day for like months. And what a performance, right? Yeah, amazing. We um amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:17

I'm I'm so sad that like you know, America just went, nah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:22

We're not into it, bro. It's it's such a shame. And like I was gonna ask you about this as well. Like, yeah, I mean, you obviously you made the final cut. Were you thrilled when you saw that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:33

Yeah, but I had no idea if I was gonna be in it until I was sitting in the cinema with my family. Well, my auntie, my auntie puts my her hand on my leg and she's like, Is this the scene? I'm like, I think I think this is the scene, and like you know, and then I was then I was in it, but I was just in the background, and then I was like, I think I I think I improvised some lines, I can't remember. Like, I wonder if they'll put that in, and then they got my line in, and I was like, Yeah, whoo!

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:56

And then the whole thing about like Robbie picking up on that. I mean, he didn't say a lot about any of the cast in the film, but that was wild, man.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:05

Yeah, I died when I saw that. I was like fully googling it all the time. I was like, no galliger better man, no girl was googling it. Oh man, tell me about it. I was like, Did someone say anything about this performance? It's so funny.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:17

I was sort of in a similar, not not quite the same. I knew that I was gonna be in it, but I didn't know how much. And I'm like, I was I've definitely like cut down my role a lot. Um yeah, I I was it's it was weird that it was out there, and I didn't know I you don't know what to do with it then, right? It's like, what'd you what'd you do with this? Was it was it enough?

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:36

Like mate, I I gotta say, and I don't I don't want to embarrass you with compliments, but your performance was standout in the movie. Like I it was so good. And my girlfriend, like, when we walked out of the cinema, she's like, Oh, the guy that played Robbie's friend was awesome. So, like, you made an impact on the on the film, man. It's really cool. And that's that's all your scenes were awesome. That scene in the kitchen particularly is so emotional and and so raw and real, man. It's really amazing work. So thank you, man. That's why I came on for you to say that. So yeah. No, for real, man. Like it was.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:08

And I was really But you say you you say that America didn't catch on and it it didn't, and it was like weird. And that's what I mean. I was talking about a bit earlier on about that, and how like I was like, oh, is it gonna is it gonna do enough? Is it and oh no, America's not and then you know that the the the the LA premiere got cancelled the day before because of the fires in LA. Yeah, of course. It just felt like there was one thing conspired uh one thing after another conspiring against it. Um but something that that Michael said, and it it is true, is like he was like, it's it it was a film that was been made, it was it was made to be seen on a massive screen. Yes. And I'm I'm sorry that more people didn't get the opportunity to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:42

Um because the people that did really kind of um I don't know a single person that came out of the cinema and said they they they might have not expected it to be very good, but they come out going everyone's like that, yeah. The best film I've ever seen. Like it honestly, I I love the film. Like, I'm so stoked that you know we we had something to do with it, exactly but like to be part of a film that's that good. Oh man, thank god it's a good movie.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:07

I I know, right? Thank yeah, I I think about that as well. I was like, look, uh if may it didn't go stratospheric like they were hoping, yeah, um, in like commercial success, but everyone that sees it loves it. And and this is what I was gonna say. So Mike Michael kept saying this, he's like, it will find a home and people will come to it. And actually, more than at the time, now I'm hearing people going, Oh, I just saw that, I saw that film. Now it's on it's streaming in the UK. I don't know what it's doing in Australia, but it's streaming in the streaming on the prime, I think. Yeah, um, but I was like, oh, I saw this film and it was it was amazing, or like I saw it on an aeroplane, which is obviously not the not the best, not the medium that it was it was intended, but but like hey, people are coming to this film and finding it and loving it, and yeah, how great that we're attached to something that that that that is so brilliant and people love rather than I mean look, I'd have loved to have been a commercial success that is a bit pants, but yeah, ultimately, like along down the line, the people that matter, like the people the the amount of so we were talking a bit before about um about John O and his like motion capture work. My so my my wife works for Andy Circus's company, yeah, right, and so he he came along um to the premier, the best premier. Oh man, that's so to support Michael and support me, and it was that was it was so lovely. Yeah, and we saw him before and he was like, How are you feeling? Went in and he came out afterwards, he's like, I'm absolutely flawed by that. Yeah, and he loved it, and he I I I saw him a couple of weeks ago. He he he he's been back three times to the cinema with with he took all his family to see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He loves it so much, but like obviously he's like the the father of motion capture, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and he really kind of sort of he he like lifted John O up and and really advocated for his performance in the movie. He's really advocated for the movie and the visual effects work, but the the performances and the direction. Um so and I think about him as like a a a sort of one one of our great filmmakers. Yes. Um and he's seen it and loved it. Yeah. And so that and that that means something, right? Yes, absolutely. People people that I look up to, that we look up to are finding this film and going, This is amazing. And the and then we're both part of that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:36

Yeah, it's sort of surreal, right? It's so surreal. I mean just to hear like I'm so far away from everything, man. To hear that, like it is surreal. It's surreal to know that anyone has seen the film, and it's surreal to know that these pioneers of the industry have seen the film and love the film. It's fucking cool, man. Yeah, yeah. Look, man, this is this is awesome. Yeah, I'm really glad we did this. Um, I've got to wrap up because I'm shooting a uh a film with my mate now. Yeah, amazing. We're doing a night shoot. Yeah, he's written a film.

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:14

I'm very jealous. You're going on set. I'm I'm what am I doing? I'm gonna go and get some shopping and for my parents arriving.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:21

Hi man, look, we are living our life. Don't downplay the reality of you know the reality of hosting your parents.

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:31

Um man, thank you so much for taking the time. And um it honestly, like, I'm so glad that we did this. I'm glad that I we actually got to have a proper chat. Um, and thanks for you know, watching along uh on on Instagram and and you know, the support for the podcast and the stuff that I'm doing. And yeah, of course. I love it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:50

It's so great. Thanks, man. Um yeah, it's great to see what you do. It means a lot, man. And hey, maybe we'll maybe this isn't the last time we can get a little I don't reckon we can.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:03

Oh, definitely. Let's do it, man. My passport is valid. And um let's stay in touch. Yeah, this is a really nice chat. Um, what what's happening from here? Like, if have you got anything in the works you can talk about or anything that you're excited about, or or we can just cut this bit out if there's if you like it's not a baby.

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:23

That's the that's a bit honest. And like it's a it's a in like what we got, like eight weeks left. It's oh my god. It's really soon. And that's amazing. People have talked, always told me, like, oh once that happens, like your perspective shifts and your priorities change, and like I was always like, oh maybe not for me. But actually, like as we get closer now, I'm like, oh, this is a this is a big change. Yeah, so exciting. I'm doing a I'm doing a theatre R D um in uh a couple of weeks' time. And you know what? I'm really looking forward to it. No one will ever see it or won't at the moment see it, but just like I can't wait to be in a rehearsal room and mess around with people.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:04

That's that's the thing, man. It's doing the thing. You're doing the cra you're doing the art. You know what I mean? It's not about the the prestige and and the the performance of it, the performativeness of it all.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:15

It's exactly we like just something there's something incredibly pure about rehearsing something that people won't see.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:21

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Good, I'm good.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:23

And then a massive Marvel movie that will pay much rent for a few years.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:27

Alright, man, and and um and where can we find you on Instagram?

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:30

Uh you can find me at Fraser Hadfield on Instagram. Actually, do you know what? I might plug this as well. It's this is a this is something that I I I star I started last year. I got really into cheese. Um I'm serious. Yeah. I took I took my I took my cheese exams. Good. Um talk about it. It's about time. I know, right? Yeah. So now I'm I'm a I'm a qualified cheese sommelier. Good. Believe it or not. And I started to check it. I started a cheese Instagram. Oh my god, please play. I actually do you know what? I actually start I actually started it because um a publicist um for Betterman was like, you should get an alternative interest um Instagram account. Uh, because like Florence Pugh has a cooking one, and maybe you could do something, and then that'll make you be super famous, and then you'll book lots of of jobs. And I was like, That's great advice. It didn't work. Um but I did how Hey man, it's not too late.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:25

You're you're plugging it right here. It's about to blow up.

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:27

This is it, it's it's about to blow up. But anyway, I started a I started a cheese Instagram account. Yeah. Um you can find that at Fromage Fraser.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:38

I love that. I love that so much, man.

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:41

From it's a really niche British cheese insights. I do. That's your that's your place to go. And hey, who knows? Maybe that that's gonna become my my thing. It's about to be a good one. I thought I was gonna go back to that. I'm actually gonna end up a sort of social media cheese sommelier.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:59

I love that, man. I I I want to ask more questions about that, but I gotta go to this shoot. Got it. Mate, you're a leg. Yeah, honestly, I think we could have chatted for like another two hours. How bloody lovely was that. Fraser, thank you so much for coming on the show, man. Honestly, it was so cool to hang out, and I'm sure I'll see you in London one of these days or in Australia, maybe. I forgot to bring this up in the chat, but Fraser also happens to be an extremely talented musician. Um, go to his Instagram page and and just find one of the videos of him playing piano. He's unbelievable. Like, honestly, yeah, go support him, give him a follow at FraserHadfield, and if you're into cheese, give fromage.fraser a follow. At fromage.fraser. Fromagefraser? Yeah, that was it, yeah. Um how good is that? It's so so sweet, man. What a sweet guy. What a yeah, love that dude, man. Make sure you give the podcast a follow at go pluck yourself pod and follow me uh at featuring underscore chris underscore gun. Um, what else? Uh if you haven't subscribed to the YouTube channel, do that. A lot of instructions. My goodness, why don't you just pick one thing to do this time? Um, join out to the Patreon. That's do that one. That's good. Um holy shit, guys. You will never guess who is coming on the show next week. Uh, you're gonna have to wait and see, but I will say Charlie's gonna dig you. Alright, there's a clue. All right, theme music by my cousin Nick Gunn. You can check out his work on SoundCloud, soundcloud.com slash Nick Gunn. All right, thanks for listening, guys. I'll see you next week. My name is Chris Gunn, and hey, go pluck yourself.