Go Pluck Yourself: The Actor’s Pursuit

Ep 14 Damon Herriman: Child Actor to Charlie Manson. The Iconic Career of Australia’s Most Prolific Actor

• Chris Gun • Season 2 • Episode 14

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This week on the podcast, I sat down with multi-award-winning actor Damon Herriman, an Australian icon who’s managed to do the unthinkable: break Hollywood and build a career that’s lasted from childhood television all the way through to Quentin Tarantino, and some of the biggest shows and movies on the planet. Damon’s one of those rare performers who’s not only been around forever, but has somehow kept getting better, sharper, and more interesting with every decade.


We dive into the long game behind that kind of career: the patience, the timing, the doubt, the breakthroughs, the craft, and the strange little decisions that end up changing everything. From the years where nothing was landing, to the moments that opened doors in the US, to the roles that reshaped his trajectory, it’s a look at how a multi-award-winning career is actually built. Slowly, quietly, and with a ridiculous amount of persistence.


This was such an honour.


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SPEAKER_02:

Hi, I'm Damon Herriman, and you should go pluck yourself.

unknown:

Pluck myself.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to Go Pluck Yourself, the Actor's Pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn. Holy shit guys. This is it. I know you've all been waiting for this one. Today on the show I've got one of Australia's most legendary and accomplished actors. You might know him as Dewey Crow from FX's Justified, or the Roadkill Killer from 2005's House of Wax, or that sketchy junkie in um Breaking Bad, but you most likely know him as the actor who played Charles Manson not once but twice, uh, once in Mindhunter and again in Quinton Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. That's right, guys, it's legendary Australian actor Damon Herriman. Damon has been an icon of Australian film and TV since childhood, playing Frank Errol in The Sullivans from about eight years old, I think, seven or eight, and Hardy Jameson in The Patchwork Hero at around 11, just name a couple. But since his childhood stardom, this guy has collected one of the most impressive and eclectic filmographies in history. I mean, seriously, go check out his IMDB, it's pretty insane. He's known for his award-winning role uh as Punch in Judy and Punch, and of course his award-winning supporting role as Take That Manager Nigel Martin Smith in you guessed it, Better Man. But speaking of awards, holy shit man, this guy must have a very sturdy mantelpiece because he's won everything from actors to afkas to Logies for best supporting actor, best lead actor, best guest actor. I mean, the list is literally endless. And he completely deserves all the accolades because he's he's just one of Australia's finest and most hardworking actors. I mean, among the many things I've learned I learned from him, one thing is that he absolutely is making this career happen for himself. I mean, even after we finished the recording, I drove him back to his hotel and he very politely said to me, he was like, I'm really sorry, Chris, I don't want to be rude. Uh, I just need to catch up on a few texts. And he sat there for about 15 minutes in the car, just texting message after message after message while on his way to his next Zoom meeting. I mean, he's always just hustling for the next job, I think. I don't know. It's he's just a hard worker, you know. And I'm not encouraging hustle culture or anything, but this is a guy who is taking action in his career and it's it's paying off. I mean it's paid off in a really huge way. And I mean, in addition to being an incredible actor, of course. I bet you're wondering how the hell I got him on the show. Well, I I knew he was coming to Adelaide in May next year for his show Art at Her Majesty's Theatre, which you should definitely get a ticket for. And so I hit him up on Instagram and he replied very quickly. I think having the little better man connection helped, but I think he's just honestly one of those guys who is just really genuinely humble and grateful for his career. And he seems just really willing to pass down the ladder and take time for his fellow actor, which is really cool. So anyway, he was gonna come on May next year, but then I saw that he was actually gonna be in town for uh the Adelaide Film Festival in October for his premiere of The Fox, directed by Dario Russo. Keep an eye out for that one, by the way. And so we chatted again and he was like, well, why don't we just do it this weekend? So this is actually recorded back in October while he was here for the Adelaide Film Festival. And honestly, I can't believe that he came on the show, but I'm so grateful he did. I'm so grateful I got to meet him and hang out with him. He's just so generous and giving. It was such a pleasure to have him on. Um, I wish I asked him more questions, but hey man, I'm an actor with a podcast, I'm not an interviewer. So uh yeah, anyway. Okay, we're about to get into it, but before we do, here are three things that you can do right now to help the show. One, if you're not subscribed to the YouTube channel already, please look up the show on YouTube and hit subscribe so that you don't miss out on any future episodes. Number two, open your Instagram and before you get distracted, uh follow at GoPluckYourselfPod. Share the show on your story, send me a DM. I'd love to hear from you guys. Number three, guys, social media is dying. The best way to spread this show is word of mouth. So if you have a friend or family member who you think will enjoy this show, let them know about it. Tell them uh what you love about the show, spread the word, my friends. Okay, let's get into it, guys. Please enjoy my very chilled chat with the undeniable Damon Herriman. Do you you so you don't come here too often?

SPEAKER_02:

Or no, pretty much. I mean, I left when I was 18 and I and I pretty much get here every Christmas. I haven't missed too many Christmases. Other than that, my parents are here, so sometimes I'll come through the year to visit them. But otherwise, it's yeah, I'm pretty much in in Sydney or or um America these days. One of the two. Where are you living in America? In LA? In LA, yeah, yeah. Which I I I went there initially in 2005, I think it was, when House of Wax came out, which was an American film that was shot in Australia. Yeah. And I uh I I kind of went initially just to go to the premiere just for fun, you know. Um and then I happened to get an agent and a manager out of being in that film. Yeah, right. And that kind of made me go, well, I guess I've got to come back now, you know. And was that sort of the the start of the you know, re-entering the the industry or getting the ball rolling? It was certainly getting the ball rolling in terms of a a game changer for me, definitely. Yeah. Before I did House of Wax, you know, I did this sort of period of three years, four years acting as a child actor.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Didn't act much during high school, then sort of took it up again when I was 18. My dad moved to Sydney with his job and I went with him. And, you know, there was a couple of good things, like a movie called The Big Steel, Ben Mendelssohn and Claudia Carvin back in the day. Yeah. And I did some theatre and stuff, but generally my my ear my 20s and my early 30s, not a lot was going on acting-wise. And I I even had an office job for nine years in that time. Yeah, I was doing voiceovers. Um, so House of Works did change things because that that that was an American credit which I didn't have before. Yeah, and going over there uh getting representation, um it essentially made me go, well, I've got to come back here now because otherwise there's no point having done got the representation. So I started doing these trips of sort of three or four months at a time to LA. And um I I did those for I actually did like three trips without getting a job. Oh, two, sorry, two trips without getting any any even close to a job. And I and I was like, Oh, this is actually I'm not even auditioning that much, you know, and it's quite very expensive to go over here. I'll I'll do one more trip, and if I don't get anything on that, I'll probably just leave it, you know, and go home. And so I think the second day of that trip, I got a um an audition for a show called The Unit, which was a a David Mammoth written and directed series. Yeah. And uh I I got that role. So it was it was that that kind of changed everything, you know. In my head, I suddenly was able to go, this is possible. It sort of went from impossible to possible in one day, you know. And then after that, I thought, well, just like when I got the agent and the manager, I felt like I have to keep coming back. Once I got that that role, which was only a couple of scenes, yeah, uh, I thought, well, I'm gonna have to come back because I've I've got I I've got a role in something, and and now I feel like I want to see if if I can get any other roles, you know. And and so that did change a lot of stuff. And then it we it really kind of changed it in a big way uh about five years after that when I did a show called a pilot for a show called Justified. Yes. And that show ended up going for six years, and my character kind of recurred on that over those years.

SPEAKER_00:

Nasty character, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, nasty and also sort of uh like hapless and yeah, use like not very bright. You know, he was kind of like he wanted to be nasty, I think, but he was he was also just a bit hopeless at at it, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you said you had a break for about nine years as well. Well, it wasn't a break, it's just that there was nine years from 18 to 27 where I was working in an office with my dad at an insurance company. Oh, okay. So it wasn't like a you didn't make the choice, like, I'm not going to do acting for No, it was just that I finished high school and needed any a job, and my dad was like, Well, there are jobs going at the insurance company I work at. Why don't you come and work here? And that just happened to go for nine years. Yeah. But in between that nine years, I was still doing other things. I was I was still doing um the occasional play. Um uh that film, The Big Steel, was during that time. So it's yeah, it it wasn't that I gave it up. I the only time I really gave it up or felt like I gave it up was during high school, where I'd I'd sort of done a a chunk of it as a kid and and was sort of done with it now. And I sort of felt like, okay, well that was fun, but let's do a proper job now. And and yeah, yeah. I didn't really do a lot at high school during high school at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Was that because you just wanted to experience like normal life?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it was a few things. I think I think I was self-conscious for the first time about acting. Where when I was a kid, I didn't sort of think about that. I just learnt the lines and turned up. And now, you know, as you as you do when you're becoming a teenager, just the self-conscious about all feeling awkward, you know. Yeah. I would do an audition on it, suddenly found myself getting really nervous, which had never happened before. What age was this though, maybe like 13, you know. And and I suddenly was like, Oh, I don't think I know how to do this anymore. Like before I wasn't, I was young enough to not be thinking about what I was doing, and now I feel like I have to, and I yeah, I just don't think I was very good. And and I think also I'd all the jobs I'd done up to that point, I'd had a a tutor on set, one tutor for for all for for the schooling. And it was at primary school, that was easy. Suddenly, I was in high school, I had eight different teachers, and I was like, I don't think I could, I don't want to have to do high school work from eight teachers on a set. Like the whole thing just felt not appealing. Yeah, and I and I kind of thought I probably was gonna slowly just w wean off ever doing it and then finish high school and do another job entirely.

SPEAKER_00:

It is an interesting time for for you know for a teenager. It's such a vulnerable thing, especially when you when you're when you're a child, I can imagine, and especially in those days, like the style of acting was very different, especially on like uh was it Sullivan?

SPEAKER_02:

Solomon oh definitely. I mean, yeah, when I look at my I mean I what there are really good child actors around. I I wasn't a I don't think I was a good one. Like relative to who else was around in Australia at the time, I was probably on a par with most other people. But yeah, when I look at child actors now, they're extraordinary. Like they they seem to be able to they seem to know what they're doing, they seem to be able to be completely relaxed and natural on screen, whereas I was doing a very performative style of acting when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_00:

I wonder what that is though. Do you think that the way they sort of approach the uh the direction for the kids or how the environment on a set would be different to how it was back in the day?

SPEAKER_02:

I wonder, I don't know if it's that or just that in general, I mean, in general, that style of acting that was around when I was a kid, certainly on TV, it was it's it was kind of there was a big delineation, you know. There was very naturalistic acting in in films. You know, think about you know, the Hollywood films of the 70s are very grounded and truthful, and but then you'd watch the TV of the day and it's kind of quite big and and and a very different thing. I think maybe part of it is that the the film and TV acting styles have kind of become the same uh over the years. Maybe also just acting schools that kids that when kids are taught acting are probably um taught to to try and be real, you know. Whereas when I was a kid, they would say things like, you know, well, acting's just saying a sentence but saying it with expression. And then well, that's no, it shouldn't be. Life is not that, you know. In fact, life is often saying things without expression. Yes, yeah, yeah. Teaching you like to try too hard and yeah, to do too much acting, you know, to try and I think I think when I was doing it, it was like, well, real life is one thing, and then the the you put this other layer on it, which is called acting. Yeah, yeah. Of course, now you you you we're all about trying to not see any other layers.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, try to do nothing. Yeah, so but you didn't you didn't do any formal training or anything? You just kind of lived it, hadn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

I didn't, I didn't, yeah. It was just um, you know, I I I I sort of got into it because I was living in Alice Springs as a kid. I was born in Adelaide, moved to Alice Springs with the family for five years, and while I was there I got into doing some radio commercials. Yep. And and I think my dad had had a sense that you know I was doing characters in front of the family and stuff. And was and he was about to be moved back to Adelaide with his work, and he was wanted to work out how how do you get a kid into acting. Yeah, and so he he he actually wrote a letter to the film director Peter Weir. Oh really? Yes, because I think that was the famous director of the time. Yeah, yeah. Uh and bizarrely, I don't know how he tracked him down. Bizarrely, Peter Weir wrote back and said, go and see um Ann Peters, this agent in Adelaide. Really? Who I think at the time was the only one. Um so she's still going, man. She's still going. It's incredible. It's incredible. Um so I went and had a meeting with her and uh uh ended up getting on her on her books. Yeah. And yeah, that's sort of that's sort of how it happened. And I didn't, you know, when I was older, I guess, you know, when training might have been something I could have considered doing, I was already sort of, once I left high school, starting to get work again.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And, you know, things like The Big Steel, which was a film job I would never have given up for anything, I would think to myself, well, if I was in at NIDA or something, I'd that's I wouldn't be able to work for three years. And I didn't want to miss out on opportunities. Uh, because I was like, I would be going to NIDA to try and get a film like this. So why would I why would I not do the film to go to NIDA? That didn't make any sense to me. Yeah, yeah. Not to say I wouldn't have learned a lot, of course I would have, but um to me, I just I just didn't like this, the idea of of of taking myself out of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Not having the opportunities, yeah. I I'm the same, man. Like, I I just never got around to going to to any sort of drama school for the same sort of reason. Right. Being out of the industry for so long was probably the reason why I I just was like, I I don't know. I'm there there are too many opportunities that keep popping up, and they're not very big, but they seem I feel like I should be chasing these things, you know. Do you feel like you're someone because I mean even the fact that you came here today, and by the way, thanks so much for being here. This is like my pleasure. Unbelievable that you know Damon Herriman's come to my house to do my podcast. It's it's really cool, man.

SPEAKER_02:

You you asked, and uh and I and I I think I'm just very aware of how little I knew for so for so long that when um if when someone asks me if I want to do something that involves passing on what I've learned, yeah, I feel like it's hard to say no. Uh uh a lot of the time because I uh unless I'm super busy or whatever, but uh because I I know how how much I wish I'd known some stuff that I didn't know and and and do now, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, man, it's really cool. It's kind of like sort of passing the ladder down. Yeah, you know, it's it's a really noble thing to do, and it's and I mean we all we all appreciate it. I know that my listeners will really appreciate it as well. And and as an Adelaide boy as well, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. I mean, how could I say no to the uh the Adelaide Acting Podcast?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's it. The Adelaide Acting Podcast. Yeah, yeah. That's the unofficial name. That's the unofficial name of this podcast. Yeah, yeah, the the the more polite version of the name, yeah. But we do we do have we do have a uh a bit of a connection. We do. Um we were in the same movie, that's right. I can't really say that I had a very substantial role in the moment, but I'm sure your listeners know you were in this movie, though. I've banged on about it plenty of times.

SPEAKER_02:

You haven't done a podcast without mentioning it, yeah. Um it's all I really talk about. Well, I mean, it's it's it you were great in it. And and and and uh I remember that moment in the film it being like but you know, seeing you and and Leo, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Leo, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Playing Noel and Liam Gallagher, just going, these just look like the Gallagher brothers, it's amazing. But also your whole your whole kind of demeanor became them, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Ah, thanks, man. That's wild hearing that from you. But uh just just for the listeners, we're talking about Better Man. Oh, yeah, sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm not very good at that. Like right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

They're going, what are they doing? What are they? They know, they know this. Um the the ten listeners that are related related to me will know that we're talking about better men. Um yeah, which was an amazing experience and an amazing film. Beautiful film, yeah. I'm so so happy. I mean, what an honour, but also thank God it was a beautiful film. Yeah, it's so good. And I'm such a fan of the movie, and you were amazing in it, of course, as Nigel.

SPEAKER_02:

Nigel, the the guy who is discovered Robbie Williams, put together take that. Yeah, yeah. Um, Robbie and he do not get on, they they're not a fan of each other these days, but no, but uh there's no doubt that without him there yeah, there would be nobody. There would be no Robbie. Yeah, did you spend a fair bit of time with Robbie then? No, not at not not much at all. I mean he i I I met him when I was in for a a haircut before we started filming. Yeah, and he was there to do a concert uh in Melbourne, which which they used in the film. The the crowds you see in the film are an actual Robbie Williams concert.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um but also they shot some stuff with him for the film, which I think they I don't think they ended up using, I think they just used John O. Davies, who who played Robbie. So I met him in the in the hair and makeup room, and he was he was lovely. And uh, you know, when I said I was playing Nigel, it was like, oh yeah, right, you're playing Nigel. Not not a fan, but it what was really lovely is at the film premiere in Melbourne, um, he he came down for it, and now I wasn't just you know some guy with his hair in a sink who was going to be playing Nigel. He'd seen the film many times, yeah, yeah. And God, he was nice. He was just such he was so generous, you know. Like he he he gave me a big hug, and um uh you know, my dad had been unwell at the time, and I I I said, you know, can you do a video for my dad? He's like, Of course, mate, and he did this beautiful video, yeah, yeah, you know, to my dad by name, and yeah, really sweet guy.

SPEAKER_00:

So sweet, yeah. And he seemed he seems like a gem. Like uh, I think I missed him by a week on set. I was really yeah, because I was on hold for like a year. Crazy. And the whole time I had no idea, I didn't know about the concept of the monkey or anything or who would be playing young Robbie or anything. So the whole this whole year I was kind of thinking, I'm doing a movie with the Robbie Williams. Okay, and I and I was on hold to play Liam for for a yeah for a year, right? So it came down to rocking up on the day and be like, I wonder if he'll be there. And then walking into her and makeup, and I think it was the first thing I asked, I was like, So is is Robbie here? Right, and they're like, nah, you dismissed him, like, ah, yeah, yeah. But no, it was such a good experience. How how was that experience for you? Like, how loved how did it all come about?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'd known Michael Gracie for a few years just through mutual uh friends in the business. Yeah, and I knew that he was this, you know, everyone would say, Oh my Michael's this amazing director. And then of course he did um Great Showman, which proved how talented he is and what an incredible sort of eye he has. And then, you know, I'd run into him occasionally, and and and I think one day, it must have been about you know five years ago, he said, I've got this thing coming up, it's gonna be a movie about Robbie Williams, and uh I'm interested in you to play his manager. And I was kind of like, Well, you take that's manager. I was kind of like, Wow, that's that's I mean, I I I was a bit why why isn't he thinking of some someone British or someone with a who was a big name or whatever? Yeah, but then I realized it was gonna be shot in Australia, so I was like, okay, well, I guess that makes a little more sense. Um, anyway, and then you know, it got closer and closer, and and um I had to do kind of a read, sort of an unofficial audition for the produ for the money producers to see. Yeah, uh, and then that was pretty much it, you know. And then and then um uh yeah, it was one of the most incredible things to be on set for, like to see the the way Michael could and all the creative people around him could could take this stuff out of their heads and yeah and and do this magic. I mean, that sequence, that Regents tweet dance sequence sequence, it still still blows my mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man, I wish I wish more people saw that film. And I I hope it I hope it just finds its audience. Yeah, I agree. Real soon and and because it's just it's like nothing I've seen before. Yeah, yeah, it deserves it for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talked to Fraser Hadfield who played uh Nate a couple of weeks ago. He's so sweet and great actor, and and again, really generous of him to take the time. But he he's been listening to the podcast, which blew my mind.

SPEAKER_03:

Great.

SPEAKER_00:

Um it's very nice of him to come on, but he was talking, he was telling me that they and I don't know if they did that with any of your scenes, but Michael basically shot most of the movie on his iPhone and blocked the whole thing out. Basically has a full cut of of the film on his iPhone and did the same thing with Greater Showman, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I think that there was a slight step up from iPhone. I think there were like a couple of people that we we were shooting um in in the kind of rehearsal period with small sort of video cameras, yeah, um, and covering it in a way that were gonna be the way the film would look, essentially. So that he could then cut that very you know lo-fi version of the film and work out okay, does this work? Yeah. What other shots might we need? Yeah, what have you got? Uh what scenes don't we need? You know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, I've heard of that before. It's not that common, but yeah, uh, you know, it makes sense in a way if you can afford to do that, that you get to see the film in its entirety in a very basic way to go, okay, does this work? And if not, why not?

SPEAKER_00:

Especially with such a visual film, it's kind of I couldn't think of another way to do it. But have you seen any of the footage of the Regent Street dance scene, like the the blocking footage of it?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, I was I was I was there for some of that. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Um because my character is in the start of that scene very briefly. I just walk out with the band and then I walk into a clothes shop. Yeah, very expensive trip for life to London for the for the producers, I think. Yeah, yeah. I'm barely in that scene, but I was like, sure, I'll go to London. Yeah, um, yeah. The the the rehearsal for it was in a like a gigantic it was like an aircraft hangar or something, it was huge space. Uh and watching that was amazing. Yeah, it's just incredible.

SPEAKER_00:

Um those boys put so much work into that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you know you know Michael quite well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he was already someone I knew, and yeah, yeah, it was just one of those things where you know, um I often talk about how much of this business is is luck, you know, opportunities coming about through luck. And the luck in that situation was that I I knew him enough that that I popped into his head for that role. Yeah. And if I didn't, uh someone else would have, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh mate, it's what it comes down to, isn't it? So much, so much so. Yeah. Yeah. Was there a lot of like um, you know, in the lead up to actually shooting, was there a lot of discussion over the the character or anything? Or was it or did you have a lot of material to work on?

SPEAKER_02:

Um and there was also Simon Gleason, who was one of the other writers. He he sort of had a lot of that information in his head uh about who Nigel was. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I read whatever I could, I I found any videos I could of the real guy. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, you know, with Michael specifically, there wasn't a huge amount of discussion about Nigel particularly. It was more just about uh with him, it was about you know the blocking of the scenes, and of course he would still give notes on the day, give acting notes on the day where where needed. Um and if any kind of backstory stuff, I would tend to speak to Simon just because Michael was so busy doing so many other things.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's he just seemed to have so much going on in his head all the time. Yeah, and and it had this circus running around him, you know. He's he g I was telling Fraser this as well. He he did he was very kind to give me some time on the day. He sat down with me, and I think he made a point to sit down on the couch with me and just like, all right, you're here.

SPEAKER_02:

That's nice, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

But I I was just like, what do I do?

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

And like I don't really get nervous on the set, but I think when something builds up like that for so long, you're just like, Of course, all right, what do I? But it was very nice of him to sit down, but but I think I think he did he just does have so much going on in his head. Yeah, not every director would have would have done that for every single role in that film. No, it's very kind of very generous, yeah. And Simon, of course, is like such a sweet guy, and and they both, you know, they're both really nice. They gave me big hugs at the end of the day and was like, mate, so it was just it was an amazing experience. Amazing, yeah, it was awesome. And John O, he's just he's a yeah, he he knows how to be number one on the set, eh? Yeah, he really does.

SPEAKER_02:

He's made me feel everyone feels so welcome and and yeah, he was he he uh he was incredible, incredible in the role, absolutely brilliant in the role, yeah, and just an absolute sweetheart, as you say, yeah, only positive energy, yeah, all day. Yeah, um so much energy. I don't even know where he got it from, you know. Um yeah, huge insane to huge thing to take on, man.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and like hired a couple of weeks out of shooting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there was a there was a there was a uh it was sort of a last minute casting decision, yeah. And uh he got very little rehearsal, you know, way less than was intended, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely smashed it. Yeah, yeah. It was just such a trip, man. I just you you talk about luck a little bit, like yes, yes, sure, luck. But also I I I I'm of the belief that you kind of like you create, you find opportunities and and and you put yourself out there and then there's an element of luck, but you you have to kind of create your own luck a little bit, you know what I mean? But Better Man was one of those things where it was like the the stars kind of aligned a little bit and in and and not always in the best way, like Covid had a big a big thing to do with with it as well, I think. Right. W in the fact that like they were casting mainly in Australia as well. I don't know. I I I have a feeling that that's sort of why I kind of had a look in as well because right, because they they had to cast in Australia. So I don't know, I I kind of put it down to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02:

I had always thought, and maybe I maybe I got this wrong, that that they that they m cast and shot it in Australia uh because Michael wanted to make it in Melbourne. Oh, okay. Uh just because he's from there and he he wanted to make it at home. Oh there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

That's good. Yeah, yeah. I mean That'll that's well yeah but I might be wrong, I don't know. I don't I don't really know.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe maybe there was an intention at some point to to shoot it in the UK. Maybe. Um but I'm glad that makes sense. We wouldn't have a role in that. Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I was sort of saying before, like the fact that you came here today and and you know, you're so generous to you know, with how you sort of spend your time as and and even talking about the opportunities that came up in LA when you did that first project over there, and you strike me as the kind of guy as a kind of yes man, or or like you're curious about opening doors and seeing what's inside and and would that ring true to you, do you think?

SPEAKER_02:

In some ways, um certainly like not not in terms of like I I'm quite picky with taking jobs, like um that that's where I'm I'm I'm definitely not so yes man as I might have been when I was younger, I guess when you kind of have to uh maybe for financial reasons or just to build up some tape, you know. Yes, yeah, yeah. To do things that you might not be as crazy about. So I definitely become a a lot more like, you know, do do do I really am I gonna have a good time doing that? Am I gonna be able to do it? Will I do a good job, you know? Is it different enough from something I did recently? Yeah. All these sorts of questions, you know, who's it working with, all these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_00:

But I mean, in terms of like not not necessarily just like taking anything you can get, obviously there's discernment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But could you put it down to a few things on how you've based your career, the approach you've taken to opening doors or being curious, or how you've approached your actual career choices. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I mean, it's I think I'm probably unusual in that I haven't sort of, and it's not like something I would necessarily say for advice, but I've rather than um rather than kind of being incredibly passionate and filled with self-belief, yeah, I've had more of a a theory of how little do I need to do, how much or how little do I need to do in order to not regret something later.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So, you know, things like me going to the States and then going back again and all that sort of stuff was never about, oh good, finally, there's a door open there and I'm finally going to take America by storm. I just never had I, you know, I I I've very much more of a glass half-empty guy in that regard. Just kind of and and I don't necessarily think that's a good thing. I think the people that that tend to make it probably are more um filled with self-belief, although those same people will have a large proportion kind of be devastated because they believed something was going to happen that didn't. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So whereas I'm kind of like in the in the the cohort of people who are like, why would they hire me? I mean, they've got enough actors, right? Right, yeah. But I also was like Do you think that works for you though? Well, it it it works psychologically, yeah, yeah. Because if you think that and then they don't hire you, you go, Yeah, that's what I thought.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yeah, well, that's what I mean. It it kind of it it kind of gives you this, yeah. Jason Bateman, or I listened to his podcast, Smartless, with the other two guys, he always talks about sexy indifference. Right. Which is a really nice term. It's kind of like, yes, of course you want, you want to do the job, you want to, you know, and you want to do your best work, but kind of having this attitude of like take it or leave it, like, yeah, I'll do it. And if if you give it to me, I'll do a good job. Right, right, right. But also, like, if not, I don't think I'm right for it anyway, and I'm I'll I'll just do something else.

SPEAKER_02:

It's it's yeah, I think I think that's like you know, most of my friends and peers, yeah, uh who are actors came out of acting schools, and then you know, you come out of an acting school, you you you're ged up to go and take take you know the bull by the horns and and and get out there. And I didn't I I just kind of like I did it as a kid, I kind of stumbled back into doing it as an adult. But I had this office job as well. Yeah, my life was not around actors, I didn't hang around a lot of other actors in my 20s at all. Yeah, uh my friends were people from the office, and you know, it was I had a very normal life. So it was just not that far to fall if I didn't end up getting more acting work. It was like, you know, there were times where I'd do, you know, two acting jobs in a year and they were only a couple of days each or something. Like, yeah, you know, if if that's all I did, or if I was, you know, waiting tables to but but desperate to be an actor, that would be very devastating. But yeah, I kind of didn't notice that I wasn't working. Yes, and and and then so as I say, when it got to the the the the seeing a bit of a potential difference by having this film in America and and maybe that opening doors, it wasn't like, oh, finally this moment has come that I've been waiting for. It was just like, okay, well, that's unexpected, but cool. I guess I will, and as I said, I didn't want to I didn't want to regret anything. Yeah. I didn't want to be so indifferent that I was didn't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I would I would go, okay, well, I'm gonna go over there. That's why I said, you know, when I I went over there for three months, no job, another three months, no job. That's why I went, okay, I'm gonna do one more and that's it. You know, now if I'd been like, you know, filled with self-belief, I would have been you would have moved there permanently. Yeah, yeah, whatever. We'll move there permanently or just kept going until something happened. Yeah, and I know a lot of people who did do that. And for a lot of them now they have come home and are doing a different job, or they're over there doing a different job than being actors. Of course, a few of are actors, but it's just it's it's a big call, and I would never say to someone, don't do that. I would just say, just be aware that I I think I was just always very aware that the odds of making it, certainly over there, are so small. Yeah. Um I I was a real I would say I was a realist, you know. I don't think I was a pessimist, I just think I was a realist. Yeah, and you know, I'm cautious and I was 35 when I went there, you know. Yeah and like a regular looking five foot seven, 35-year-old is not gonna, they're not gonna be bashing down the door to to cast me in anything, you know. And and I and I was aware of that. So whenever it sort of did, you know, I I I did, you know, on on one shoulder I had a voice going, but but you can but you could do this acting, like you could you've got the acting chops to do it, and then on the other shoulder going, no, you're terrible, mate. Like really, yeah, absolutely. You know, do you still ever feel like that? Oh, thankfully the the your terrible mate voice is a lot quieter now, just because I think with doing it for enough years where people keep hiring you, yeah, you know, that guy just starts starts sounding a bit ridiculous. Well, dude, why are keep why are people hiring me then? Yeah, yeah. Shut up. Yeah. But but but before they were before they were hiring me, yeah, that voice was probably the loudest one. Yeah. Going, well, that's why you're not getting many jobs, because you're not that good.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's when that's when the the other attitude that you had, which was Yeah, but uh oh, I'm not I'm not gonna get it anyway, so it doesn't really matter. That kind of that's kind of a safety net, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

It is, yeah, and it probably all was a safety net, and uh and and feeling like I just need to do I just need to do this for long enough until the the evidence in front of me says this is not for you. That was kind of how I looked at it, which is a very well the evidence kept going the other way, like it might be for you, man. It would be like, you know, there'd be these crumbs of evidence, these these kind of um I I keep keep getting these little carrots going no dangling in front of my face, going, Don't give it up just yet, because what about this? Yeah, and so yeah, and I'm really glad I did because it turned it turned out that you know hanging around for long enough worked worked in my in my case. Yeah, it doesn't always, but it it happened to, um again, because of a lot of luck and timing and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's interesting for me, and I think I think it's something that's actually helped me a lot as an actor hearing people like you who've had these amazing careers, talk about the real feelings that we all feel, we all still feel, and I think something that really liberated me out of insecurity is accepting that that's just part of it. You know what I mean? And I I don't think it ever goes away. And listening to these kinds of interviews and you know, all those Hollywood roundtables and actors on actors and all those things, and the common thread that I hear in those interviews is I'm always terrified. Yeah, I'm always nervous. I never think I can do it. I've always I always think I've done a bad job.

SPEAKER_02:

I I just uh you know was at the Adelaide Film Festival watching a talk, and two two wonderful actors, Kate Box and Daniel Henschel, were talking, and they both said this very same thing. And yeah, and I and I know those guys, and I didn't know that they had confidence issues and self-doubt, and they were both talking about that. So even Ben Mendelssohn told me one day that he he uh can be insecure and lack confidence. I was like, Ben, you're the most confident actor I know, yeah, and and one of the most brilliant. Yeah, uh, I was so shocked. I think it is pretty much, you know, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think it is incredibly common. So yeah, and I wish I knew that when I was younger because it can be quite debilitating when you're younger to be filled with anxiety about, you know, I'm not good enough, they don't think I'm good enough, why are they talking about me? You know, all this stuff. Why am I here? Why they've made a huge mistake. And none of those things are true. No, no. I I I I I say to you know, younger actors all the time, like, don't when you when you go on a set and you and you're thinking, oh God, you know, I'm this all the well-known people are here, or the the regular people are here, and I'm this I'm here for just today, and yeah, oh God, I don't belong and all that. I'm like, don't don't no, you got the role. Yes, yeah. You were the one who was chosen. Yeah, you know, they want you, they want you here.

SPEAKER_00:

They you are their favorite. You've already done all the work, man. You've already proven to them, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I think that's why, and I'm so familiar with that feeling of being like a new kid at school when you're seven and just the terror. Um, that when when there is someone in for a day or whatever, you know, I'd so I'm so aware of like, make sure they they feel like they're part of it because I know what it's like not to feel part of it, and it's not it's not fun. No, no, but it just you know, you go, you get you get in your head about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's why like on Better Man, like I was only there for a day, and that's why just having people like John O and having Jake there, they I mean Jake wasn't he didn't even need need to be there that day, he just he just wanted to see that scene, so he rocked up, but they were just so welcoming and friendly, and it does it make such a huge difference because they would know they know what it's like for a for a a day player to come in and not know the vibe, not know what I don't even know what they were making, you know. I didn't know anything about this movie, I didn't no one told me anything, you know. And I think it's important for people to know that, like, and and that's why listening to these kinds of interviews was so helpful for me. From my experience, people actually just want it to be a good experience for everyone, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because ultimately, I mean, this gets forgotten. We're all just doing a job, you know. They're doing a job, trying to make something good, and um that's that's what we're all doing. Yeah, we don't, we don't, we don't uh there's no need for any tension or awkwardness or weirdness, you know. And the good sets don't, you know, the they you don't ever feel that. And I'm glad you didn't on Better Man. I'm not surprised at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it was wonderful, wonderful experience. I think everyone gets nervous. I don't I don't think like it's I I mean I was gonna ask, like, do you get nervous? But I think I think everyone does. I just think it's how you sort of deal with that or what box you put those nerves into. That that's what's really helped me. I think nerves just come with it, and like I don't I don't let them become this debilitating thing. But what do you do with those nerves and how how do they help you? And have has there been an experience where you have been really like, holy shit, this is a really big deal. Like, what do I do here? How how do you cope with those moments? Like, you know, working with like Tarantino or what was that experience?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, I mean, the weirdly the Tarantino one, I wasn't nervous, and and I really expected to be, but he had such an incredibly calm um vibe on set, yeah, that that uh like he was it just felt like he was there making a short film with mates or something. Yeah, yeah. Because he's worked with the same people over and over again. There's no time issue at all. And uh so I I I felt incredibly comfortable in that. And I think I mean probably had some nerves on on Mindhunter, but again, I then had sort of the the benefit of that incredible makeup that they'd done where I they turned my face into his. So I I was sort of probably able to hide within that in a in a way. Yeah, um, yeah. On other jobs, do I get nervous now? Sometimes um I used to get horrifically nervous. Uh you know, I've taken uh beta blockers before, which are a medication that people take for public speaking, or apparently violinists in orchestras take them. They um which basically just bizarre, they're just like a it's not even true to say they're a relaxation pill because they don't relax you, they just make you not nervous. You don't feel anything. Okay, you just don't feel nervous. Yeah, it's like if your palms were sweaty, they won't be sweaty now.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it takes away the symptoms, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um so I I I I've done that in the past. Yeah, these days I think just the fact that I mean it it's way more nerve-wracking when you have less scenes in something and a smaller role in something than when you have a big role. Yeah, that's that's a secret no one never told me. Yeah, and then suddenly I started getting bigger roles and going, why don't everyone tell me how easy this was? This is so much easier. Yeah, coming in to do two scenes in something is terrifying. Yeah, yeah. Because you don't have an arc of your character, yeah, you don't know any of the people, you haven't, you know, you have to put all this emphasis on these two scenes instead of 40 scenes. Yeah, all the pressures on that one on that one moment, yeah. Yeah. So that's that was a surprise to me that you know, uh so so yeah, I think now because I have opportunities that are uh you know, I've just been lucky to get better opportunities, the nerves sort of go away with with that to a large degree.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Not entirely, but enough to not be an issue.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Can we talk about Manson? Yeah. I'm curious, like, cause you you kind of got casting those roles in a pretty close proximity, is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I was actually casting them about five months apart, but they shot in the same month. They ended up filming in the same month. Really?

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Yeah, I'm curious, like, was the did you just play the same Manson?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I adjusted it a little bit. I I um So um Mindhunter was the first one I got, and because of the makeup being so extensive, that that was about a five or six month lead up to filming, yeah, where I was able to spend a lot of time researching him and watching him.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um and then the audition for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood came in after I'd spent about five months researching Manson.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So in a way, that was quite an easy audition, relatively, because it was like researching five months for an audition, you know, it was bizarre. Yeah, yeah. But there were differences. So the you know, um, there are a couple of deleted scenes on on the DVD of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and that that was my audition scene. There's a quite a fun two-page scene uh of Manson that that we did film. And but that scene is quite light and and and it almost comedic. Yeah, right. Um so tonally it was different from Mind Hunter, which is you know very much a drama. Yeah. Um, and also uh it was a different era in his life. 1969, he hasn't um murdered anybody that anyone knows, you know, that the the Sharon Tate murder weekend hasn't happened. Yeah. Um he's living on a ranch with you know 20 girlfriends, and he he he's a happy guy, you know. He's not he's not uh the guy you see in prison in 1981 when Mindhunter was set, yeah, who's um very bitter, very angry, doesn't think he should be there. So the five months of of researching him was very helpful to for the once upon a time in Hollywood audition. But I then also went back and went, okay, let me look at him and listen to him in 1969. Yeah. And there was a more playful lightness to him that I was able to kind of bring into that a bit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, nice. What was it like working with like Tarantino?

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. Yeah, I mean, uh uh as amazing as you can imagine. He was absolutely he's he's the same guy you see in interviews, he's incredibly enthusiastic and passionate and loves movies. And you know, he says we love making movies, he actually says that phrase a lot. Yeah, yeah, it was it was incredibly it sort of like when I look back, it was four days, and I I look back on it and think I feel like I was oscillating between going, This is so bizarre, how how am I even here? Yeah, and going, This is the most relaxed kind of just people going about their job. You know, it was yeah, it was it it definitely felt really fun and relaxed, but then at times I would be reminded this is crazy, this is a Quentin Tarantino movie. Yeah, there's Brad Pitt on the roof, like what is going on, you know? Um that's very cool, yeah, yeah. Oh god, yeah, it was just so you were you just soaking it in or what? I was yeah, I remember thinking to myself, please don't forget any of this. Like I was trying to just if there were any conversations that were interesting, I was like, just remember that conversation. Yeah, yeah. Um, this is not something that you are gonna, you know, the the the these these things, these don't come along very often. No, no, you know, this is this is a special one. I don't know, but they do for you though, it seems you've had a good run. Not to that extent though. Like the Quentin Tarantino film is is really up there with uh you know, you could probably count on one hand the people that are of that ilk, you know. Yes, yeah, yeah. Um and well Finch's one too. Finch's one as well. He he was there when I filmed my Mind Hunter, but he didn't direct that as well. Oh, okay. Oh, that was Andrew Dominic, um the Australian director of Chopper and many other films, uh he directed the episode. There's my research now. Oh, but that's all right. A lot of people assume that Finch directed it, because I think he did direct most of the show. Right. Um, but he was there, he was there as a producer a lot of the time. So he was he was watching it and he was lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Again, just well that's it. And and it it goes back to that that whole comfort thing is like the even though these guys have there's a probably a reason why these guys have made it so far and why you you know you've had such an uh an amazing career as well, is just that that we we love we love what we do, we love making movies, but we've got something in common here in that we we all love the same thing, we all love creating and storytelling and so when even if they get to that sort of tier, that that level, they're still just living their dream, and they're still the the the the children that are playing and and make playing make believe, do you know what I mean? It's so true, and we're all just part of that now, you know. It's so true.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. They just happen to have all these resources at hand to do it however they want.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, of someone of of your position now, uh with the career that you've had, do you feel a a shift in the way people sort of speak to you or treat you, or do you feel I I know I know that you're a very humble and and approachable and lovely guy, but with the success thing and the fame thing, how do you see that happening around you and even with your peers and stuff?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh I I I have started to notice it in the last few years a bit of a difference. Um uh which is and and it's and it's it's it's lovely. I mean, it's it's probably normally, you know, um younger actors in their early 20s or whatever, who have now just sort of seen me and stuff. I mean, I know that I know that feeling of being, you know, 23 and seeing an actor who's older who I who who I I I've seen in things and yeah, and uh and I and I see now in the in these people them talking to me in the way that I used to, and going, Well, that's that's weird. It's kind of like I never sort of envisage that that being a thing, but it's it's really lovely. Like it's really lovely to see someone who's enthusiastic about what you've done.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And to be, you know, when you're just you in your own body, you're like, yeah, I'm just doing these jobs and it's fun, and I'm how lucky am I? And then yeah, but then you sort of see some for some people, you know, particularly young young actors, it's it's exciting to them, you know. It's or it might be exciting that they've met you, which is weird. And I think then it's weird for me because I'm just like, I know I'm not anything special, but I've I and I also always, you know, just make sure to um to talk, you know. I again I've been the person so many times when I was younger that's wanted to meet this actor who's older that that I liked. Um so if someone wants a photo or someone wants to chit-chat uh about stuff stuff, I'm always uh, you know, if I've got time to do it, I'd definitely do it because I I'm very aware of well that's that's a nice thing. It's a nice it could be worse. They could be saying I I hate you and and all your performances.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, I mean, considering some of the characters that you've had to play. That's true. Yeah, but no, it's very it's it's good, man. You might as well be a nice guy about it, right? And make the experience enjoyable for everyone else. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I think, you know, and I think that's the a view I have on set as well, you know. Yeah. I've been very fortunate. I haven't worked with many people who've been arseholes on set. Um, but you know, there are you obviously hear lots of stories and I just think or people being late or, you know, um being difficult and thinking, you think, what, what, why, why? Why are you doing that? Yeah, you know, we're all just here trying to do the make this thing good. Yeah. Um, and you know, I don't want to be late. Apart from it being just unprofessional, selfishly, I don't want to be late because every five minutes we have less in the day is another take I could have done that I thought I needed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, so I I I uh just another moment that you you you didn't get to experience, you know. It's like bringing your phone to the set and just when I was on Better Man, I was like I left my phone back in the wherever they pick me up from. Yeah, yeah. I want to take in every second of this video. Yeah, that's brilliant. The reason I brought up the the sort of the fame thing or the hierarchy, what's the word? Hierarchical. Well, that's a terrible horrible word.

SPEAKER_02:

It's it sounds like you're choking. Hierarchical.

SPEAKER_00:

Hierarchical.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's it though, isn't it? Well, let's just leave it. We'll not say hierarchy. The hierarchy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, why I bring up the hierarchy, this idea of that, you know, is like when I come when I come onto a set, I think if I if I let the idea that someone else is of such great importance over me, I think I'll just like cower under this like fear of them. Do you know what I mean? But like bringing myself to their level and be like, we're peers now, we're we're friends, we're making something. That is, I think that's such a challenge, but it's so important to bring yourself to and having having great people to to work with, like coming onto it onto the sets that you've been on. And maybe it comes down to that whole thing of being a day player or doing one or two days, and then having the experience of of having a a long-lasting role on a on a project, getting to a week into it, and suddenly you're just like, when was I even worried about this? Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, and so and and suddenly you're all mates and and and you're all just making the thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I know, no, it's it's it's it's true. Like that's that's you know, there's not many good things about getting older, but one of them is you do care less about that stuff, about about oh god, you know, there's that famous person, or there's that person who's done more than me, or there's the person with the bigger role. It's nice to look after people though. Oh, hundred percent. I don't mean in terms of not revering them, I just mean in terms of not being scared. Yes, you know, yeah, yeah. Um I did a show with uh Kevin Bacon last year, and you know, I I I could imagine, and that was that was like a five-month job, and he's a lovely, lovely man. Yeah, but I I I you know uh if it had if I'd been doing that even 10 years ago, I imagine I would have been um almost too reverent to him, probably being, you know, uh uh uncomfortable to talk to him or whatever, you know. Yeah, and I think you know, part of just getting older and and also I guess having more credits yourself, you sort of go, you are more inclined to go, that's so awesome that I'm working with Kevin Bang. I've watched him since I was a kid. Yeah. But also it's just a guy, he's just here to do a good job. Yeah, yeah. And he doesn't want me tiptoeing around him either.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, of course. And and even if you did, you you know, you did start to feel the the pressure of it, you can you you look at the evidence of the of the career that you've had and say, like, no, I it you know, I'm I should be here. It's okay for me to be here. Yeah, do you so you still audition and everything? Like or or I mean wha what does auditioning look like to you these days?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh about I guess at some point in the last 10 years and and especially in the last five, I somehow was able to not have to audition in Australia, which I'm very grateful for. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You missed all the self-taping stuff then in the street. Well I still do in Australia, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I still do self-tape for America most of the time. Occasionally a role comes along that is on the back of something else they've seen. Yeah. Um, but I would say two out of three times I still self-tape over there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh for me, um, I'm a fan of the self-tape if you're going to audition. Yeah, yeah. Um I I I I know a lot of actors who don't like them because they want to get the feedback in the room. They want to be directed uh in the room and feel a bit like they're flying blind when they do it themselves. That is true, but for me, that is a much less important factor than the comfort I have by not being in a room with with people who are um, you know, what watching me and maybe only letting me do it once or twice, and yeah, I don't even get to choose the best take.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

When you do a self-tape, uh you have complete comfort. I mean, I do them at home. Yeah um you do it as many times as you need to. You do it with a friend, you pick, you watch all the takes and you pick the best one. And it's it's it's a I just think that okay, sure, I didn't get direction, but that's a small price to pay for doing a good take. Yeah, but you can direct yourself though, right? You know? Well, you hope so. I mean, sometimes it can be that you just have the wrong idea. Oh, of course, yeah. But I I guess I also figure that, well, if that were to be the case, hopefully they'll say, Can you do it again? Here's some direction.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I still think that's better for me than being in the room. Being someone who is inclined to get nervous, I think the nerves of being, you know, I I would hate to think of the you know, hundreds of roles that I might have had a chance of getting had my nerves got the better of me over the years.

SPEAKER_00:

I love self-taping. Like to me, it's been a blessing because I I've just like embraced it as this opportunity to make a short scene and a short film and get really creative and and make some bold choices that I might not have made if I had two takes in a room. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And maybe I have the chance to to use the the tenth take because I'm like, by the time I got to the tenth take, I've thought of something really interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, look, I I I I would say that at least half the people and the actors I know prefer it. But I do know a large proportion who are like, no, I want to go in, I want them to have the room set up. Yeah, I don't want the some people get annoyed by having to do the tape, you know, I have to pay to go and do the tape, yeah, yeah. Which I understand entirely. Yeah, that's seem a bit weird to be. You know, that that's a bit much. But um, if you can, you know, I I I just have a setup at home and it's it's it's fine. It's yeah, it's done and dusted in an hour normally.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So do you have like mentors now? Do you do you have a mentor that you sort of look up to or someone that you sort of lean upon to just sort of soundboard and or or do you sort of rely on like people like Simon Gleason or or or the dramaturge or yeah, I mean if it's a specific project like Better Man than someone like Simon Gleason who's one of the writers and researched it so much, obviously I would be leaning on in just general terms, in terms of a career choice or whatever.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I generally I generally just go on my instincts. I mean, I'll talk to my own agent and things like that um for their opinion. Um but I sort of I sort of have a a pretty good feel for whether something is gonna be the type of thing I'm gonna want to do. And that'll be a combination, as I said before, of the script in general, the role specifically, yeah the dialogue, um, and and who's making it, you know, who else is in it, who's directing it. Yeah. And then I also gen tend to also think, well, have I done this too much recently? There oh there was a period I around the time I did the Nightingale and um uh both of the Mansons and Judy and Punch. I was playing for it's about a three-year period where I was just playing truly horrible, violent people. Yeah. And then I started getting auditions or offers for more horrible violent people, and I was like, no, I'm gonna stop doing that because firstly it's not that interesting to do it. Yeah. But but secondly, I don't wanna I don't be the go-to guy for that, you know. Yeah, you wouldn't typecast yourself too much. Yeah, you know, I've still I've still played villains and things since then, but I just am a bit more uh aware of that and not not feeling like it's the same thing I've done over and over again.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh man, must be nice to have the choice now, eh?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man. What a good feeling. It's a good feeling, and I'm very, very, very aware of the not having that feeling for for a long time. Yeah, yeah. You know, it it's I mean, I I still have had a longer career of not being in that position than the one where I have been in that position. Yeah. The the being in the position to be a little choosy and have thing things come to me has been relatively recent, you know. Yeah, and it's definitely better. I definitely like it better. Yeah. Um, it's you know, acting is being an actor when you're well, I was gonna say when you're starting, but it's not even when I mean it wasn't even when I was starting that I was feeling this. I was 20 years in feeling like I can't get arrested.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, trying to get people to see you in a crowd and say, hire this person is is is very it's a hard thing. Yeah. Um uh psychologically, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

It is. So you had this kind of career, like you, you know, you've been doing this since you're a a kid. And and I mean surely like coming coming back into it after your nine years working in the office job, that having that behind you already benefited your trajectory the kid part, you mean? Yeah, well just having all that experience and having the credits and everything. How would you how would you approach it now if you were starting from scratch? Oh, that's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I mean, probably I mean if I if I was starting as like a 17, 18, 19-year-old, you know, like if I was going, I think I've got some skills here that that that could give me a career. Um it's I I don't know, that's really hard. I mean, I mean I I I feel like just because it's an in of some kind, I probably would audition for NIDA and VCA and Whopper, or or one of the other many schools that there are that that that that get the agents coming to watch and the casting directors coming to watch, yeah, because you know that it means that, well, firstly, you're gonna learn some stuff, you're gonna create, you know, gonna make some friends and peers in the industry, but you're also gonna get seen at the end of it. Yeah. And hopefully that's going to be a a a door opener. Yeah. It's very hard to again, that's why I talk about luck all the time. There's no version of my career that you could plan, you know. You don't no one says, okay, well, you know, be on tell for three years when you're a kid, then then give up and then work in an office for nine years.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's impossible to sort of give advice on how to how to go about it. But that but the thing that's come up on this podcast so much is like no one's path has been the same. So I don't think it's it is possible to put your finger on it, and that's not what I'm trying to do at all. I'm curious about what people do, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

But in terms of in terms of having some control, which is one thing that we often don't, um, there are a couple of ways that I kind of with some friends kind of took some control in my late 20s, which was getting into making short films and getting in and putting putting on plays. Yeah. Um, because you could put on a play at a fringe festival, or you can apply to put on a play at any of the smaller uh theaters uh that that exist in every city. Um and you can make anyone can make a short film, you know. Trotfest is back, you can make a short film for Tropfest. You might be thinking, well, I can't do that, it's too expensive, or I don't have all the equipment. You can do it on your iPhone. Very I mean, you know, the you if you've got a good idea and and some friends, you can make something uh really you make something in one locked-off shot if you want to, if it's if if if it's a good idea. Once I sort of started getting into that stuff, that's sort of what led me to leaving the insurance company, actually. Was I started getting my creative juices flowing really with being around people who wanted to be doing writing and directing uh shorts and and and putting on plays and things. Yeah. And then I I I kind of realized, you know, if I don't lean into that more, I'm just gonna be stuck at this office forever. Yes. Um, so I would say, you know, that is something um if you are starting out, you know, as a as a as a separate thing from the uh auditioning for the bigger schools, is um if you can, and you if you have other friends that are interested in this too, yeah, uh, and I guess the way to meet those people is to go and do classes and things, um, is to you know try and make your own stuff. Because suddenly you make something and it's oh, I just got into Tropfest or I got into Flickrfest or I got into St Kilda Film Festival, and suddenly you're meeting all these new people, and some other director there saw you in the film and like, hey, I actually want to put you in my film next. And then the next thing you know, they're making a feature film and you're in that. Yeah, you know, so but again, all this stuff is you can have all the good intentions in the world, but none of it is a recipe.

SPEAKER_00:

No. Um but I I think what I'm what I've kind of got from your your story is like the longevity and not uh in terms of like just sticking at it and and not even putting pressure on yourself to like make it happen right now, just I think that's a Have a even step back for a minute.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that is probably a good way to look at, you know, if there's a message in my career, it is you don't need to rush it, it doesn't all need to happen today. Uh, and it doesn't mean it's never happening just because it hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um the problem with that as a piece of advice is that no 25-year-old wants to be told, hey, just wait till you're 40 and it might kick in. Yeah. When you're 25, 40 is ancient, and and it seems like a very long way away. And it it is a long way away. But all I'd say is it comes around very quick. Once you get there, yeah, there was no part of me at 40 when all this work started happening that went, ah, I don't give a shit about this work. It's too late. You know, I was like, I can't believe this is amazing. How the hell is all this happening? I was so happy. Um but the as I say, it's it's it's a it's a weird one because I can say don't put the pressure on yourself for it to happen now, but you want it to happen now when you're in your 20s. Of course you want it to happen now. You you because you're seeing other people for who it for whom it is happening, yeah. Um, they might be, you know, one in 300 of your of the of the actors you know that that that is really getting something uh exciting happening in their career. But and you want to be that person, I get it. I I I I I've been I've wanted to, I wanted to be, I wanted to be that person too. But I think I was just lucky in that not going through an acting school, coming out with that, okay, okay, let's do this. Come on, hire me, everybody. Yeah. And then instead just working at this relatively boring insurance company and just getting about life and going, yeah, well, I mean, I mean, I didn't even write actor as my occupation on forms. I wrote insurance clerk. Yeah, yeah. That's that's how little regard I gave to the thing that I do now. Yeah, yeah. And I did that till I was 27. I wrote insurance clerk. I mean, it's so weird, you know. And I think that's that's a fairly old age to not be calling myself an actor.

SPEAKER_00:

You give me a lot of hope, man. Well, good. I'm glad. Because I I did I took a step back from acting for most of my 20s and got back into it at 29. Yep. And you know, worked at banks and warehouses and and now I clean houses. But the whole time I was I was still like, oh yeah, I sometimes I act, but I you know, yeah. Well, and I'm I just turned 34 now, uh the other day. So um You're 34?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah, well, that's when I did House of Wax. I was 34. So my house of wax is coming. Your house of wax could come, but and then and then and then it was still another five years after that that I did Justified, and that yeah, that you know, opened all those other other doors. So it's it's um but I'm happy, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I I like just doing this. I mean, um I I don't feel like um wasting time. I just feel like you know, I'm just enjoying in you know, making sure I stop and smell the roses and say, well, this is look at this, this is sweet.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm glad. I'm glad. I've I've I yeah, do not uh there's definitely no reason to go this is over. No way. Uh I mean look, if you if if you haven't worked for 10 years at all and haven't even got a bite of any kind, maybe you maybe don't throw all your eggs into that basket. But yeah, I mean the the difference between the career I had in my 30s and 40s is uh chalk and cheese, you know, just completely different careers. Same same actor, you know? Yeah, uh that's that's the weird part. Yeah, that's why I go. There is so much to do with luck and timing here because if it were just talent, then there'd be no reason why you'd be not in my case, why did I not work if it's in my 20s and 30s barely at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I did, you know, I'm the same actor. I mean I I've experienced more. Maybe, maybe things improve over over time a little bit, but essentially I'm the same actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh it's just that the the the doors open because of some luck and some timing, and then and then this weird thing happens where the industry decides you're someone they've included, you know, and they and they will and they will now think of you when a job comes up and they didn't used to. Yeah, it's it's it's a weird, weird thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe you just the point is don't try to understand it. Just yeah, just enjoy the ride. Definitely don't try to understand it because it makes no sense. Um, all right, that was amazing. Um, just quickly, you're coming back to Adelaide in a few months, or you know, about six months.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The end of May 2026.

SPEAKER_02:

Tell us about why you're coming back. I'm coming back to do a play called Art at Her Majesty's Theatre with Richard Roxborough and Ryan Korr. Yep. It's a three-hander, it's 90 minutes, it's fast, it's funny. Yeah. Uh I'm really excited. I haven't done a play in 10 years. Haven't done a play in Adelaide since I was 22.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm very, very excited.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's not just Adelaide. You're touring Australia?

SPEAKER_02:

Touring, yes, Sydney, Melbourne, uh, Brisbane, Adelaide.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So that'll be that'll be very exciting. Oh man, I'll I'll be there. And I'll be there on Sunday. I've decided I'm not gonna play my hockey game. I'm gonna come to the Fox on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02:

I did in Adelaide, which is screening at the Adelaide Film Festival, and uh and hopefully uh at a cinema near you some sometime soon.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, this episode will probably be out after the Fox premiere because uh I've got to edit everything. Um yeah, right this is this will be season two of the of the podcast. But um people will see the fox eventually. It sounds bizarre, it sounds amazing. Probably not out until 2026, anyway. Oh, okay. Well, there you go, keep an eye out. Yeah, all right, man, dude. This is amazing. Thank you so much, thanks so much. Mate, you're a legend. How good. God damn, wasn't that dope? And then that night we went to Ben Lee together at the Gov with another legendary Australian actor, Susan Pryor. Hi, Susie, and my wonderful sister Emily Gunn. What a cool night. And what an absolute legend. Damon, thank you so much for coming on the show, man. It was um truly a pleasure. And hey, by the way, if you like what I'm doing here, if you'd like to support the show and help me keep this thing going, you can do that by signing up to the Patreon at patreon.com slash go pluck yourself pod and contributing as little as five dollars a month towards the show. Guys, this thing is entirely listener funded by you. You're the listener. I'm not beholden to any advertisers, this thing is completely independent. So if you've been listening and enjoying it, if this podcast fires you up creatively, please do me a favor and type that link into your browser to become a patron. But if you can't afford to contribute to the show, that's perfectly fine. You'll still be able to listen for free. But I'll love you even more if you contribute. That's all. Uh, two things to remember with Patreon. Number one, if you're on an iPhone, don't use the Patreon app as Apple will take 30% of your contribution just for using their app. But you can avoid that fee by simply signing up using a web browser like Chrome or Safari. And number two, when you go into Patreon, click C membership options. Don't press join for free. Joining for free does absolutely nothing for you or for me. Press C membership options if you'd like to contribute as little as$5 a month towards the show so that eventually I can pay myself or pay someone else to help me edit this thing because it's a lot of work and I love doing it, but I'm getting tired and I'm not keeping up, as you can tell. Uh yeah. But thanks everyone for all your support. Thanks to everyone that's joined Patreon. Your support means the whole world to me, guys. Thank you. Alright, wherever you're listening or watching, make sure you hit follow or subscribe. Also make sure you give us a follow on Instagram at go pluck yourselfpod and follow me at featuring underscore chris underscore gun. Theme music by Nick Gunn, that's my cousin. Check him out on SoundCloud, soundcloud.com slash Nick Gun. Alright, guys, I'll see you next week. No, probably not next week. Man, you know what? I'm trying to keep up with this thing, but I'm I'm doing my best. I might see you next week. I'll try my best. I do have an episode in the pipeline, but I've still got to finish it. Maybe two weeks. You know what? I'm gonna get the rhythm of this thing after Christmas, I think. We'll get there. Anyway, thanks for watching, guys. I'll see you soon. My name is Chris Gunn, and hey, go pluck yourself.