Ep 16 Erik Thomson: Life Lessons From a Career in Film & TV

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What does it really look like to keep going as an actor when the industry keeps shifting under your feet?

This week I had the enormous honour of sitting down with one of Australia’s most respected and recognisable actors, Erik Thomson.

Erik’s been a constant on Australian screens for decades. You’ll know him from All Saints, Packed to the Rafters, 800 Words, Aftertaste, and from way back as Hades in Xena: Warrior Princess. His film work includes The Black Balloon, Somersault, The Boys Are Back, and more recently Kangaroo Island. It’s a seriously impressive body of work, but he talks about it all with zero ego.

We chat about what it actually means to stay in the work. Moving where the jobs are, adapting to self tapes and shorter runs, letting go of entitlement, and coming back again and again to the basics of the craft. There’s a lot here about auditions, perspective, mental health, identity outside of acting, and how to keep yourself steady without losing curiosity or love for the job.

This isn’t a big dramatic breakdown of the industry. It’s just a really generous, honest conversation with someone who’s been around long enough to have seen the cycles come and go, and who’s still very much in it.

If you’re an actor, filmmaker, or creative trying to work out how to build something that lasts, I reckon you’ll get a lot out of this one.

Thanks for coming on Erik! It was a true honour.

Available to watch on YouTube or listen on all podcast platforms

Transcript

Welcome Back And Why We Create

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, my name is Eric Thompson, and you should go pluck yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello and welcome to Go Pluck Yourself, The Actor's Pursuit. My name is Chris Gunn. Hey, by the way, if you're new here, welcome. It's really nice of you to join us. This is Go Pluck Yourself. It's a podcast for actors and filmmakers and yeah, anyone that's sort of interested in the world of acting and filmmaking. Why is it called Go Pluck Yourself? Well, because actors, if you're sitting around still waiting for your big break, then I hate to tell you folks, no one's coming to pluck you from the crowd and make all your Hollywood dreams come true. If you want to get anywhere in this career, you have to pluck yourself. Yeah. That's the joke. Yes, you know it's a good joke when it requires an explanation. And hey, by the way, I'm really sorry that it's been like a whole month since my last episode. Sonna and I have been in the Philippines having the best time ever. Such a beautiful country. Um, but we're back, and the podcast is back, and oh my god, I'm so excited to share this episode with you guys. We actually recorded this episode way back in November, so I've actually been sitting on this episode for a little while now. And look, I don't know if it's like a post-holiday blues thing or whatever, but to be honest, I've been really struggling to find the motivation to make anything lately. And I don't know if you guys have been feeling the same, but you know, it's really hard to get motivated when all we do is wake up and check our phones and instantly flood our brains with the most abhorrent and disgusting um atrocities in the world. And I'm sort of feeling very um conflicted about how much I need to be paying attention and how much is just too much to take, you know? And I don't really know what the answer is here, but I do know that I'm not alone when I say that it's it's hard to cope with with everything. And even saying that feels selfish because not coping seems trivial compared to what it must be really like for the people facing the horrors that are happening around the world. And I'm definitely not saying look away. Um we de would we definitely need to be staying informed and use our voices and advocate for the people that don't get to use their voice. But I'm trying to toe the line between staying informed and seeing too much. Because as humans, I just don't think we're meant to see this much, you know? Um, we're not meant to wake up every day and look at our phones and immediately feel outrage and then maintain that outrage all day, every single day. Like, yes, we should be outraged. Like I am, I'm angry and I'm disgusted and I am outraged, but I also know that I need to manage my dosage of information, you know, because it's too much all the time and all at once. And again, that's very easy to say for a lot of us over here in our little bubbles in our little sanctuaries of privilege and selective ignorance. But if you are lucky enough to be able to, please give yourself a break from the feed, because poor mental health can sneak up on us, and platforms like Instagram and TikTok could not care less. So I hope you're all doing okay. Um, please keep writing down your ideas, please keep making the art that makes you happy because art is resistance and art is activism. It doesn't always have to be political, but the act of making art is the antidote to a broken world. Art

Introducing Eric Thompson

SPEAKER_00 3:20

connects us during times of division, art is essential, and your art is essential. Cool. Yeah. I just hope you guys are doing okay. I hope you're looking after yourselves. But this actually brings me to the conversation that I had with our amazing guest for this week. Uh, this is one of Australia and New Zealand's most beloved actors, and if you're a 90s kid like me who remembers the good old days before doom scrolling, you know, the days when families would gather in their lounge rooms every night to watch their favourite Australian TV shows or films, then you will definitely know my guest today. That's right, guys, it's everybody's favorite TV dad slash doctor slash god of the underworld, Mr. Eric Thompson. Eric is a Logie and AFI award-winning icon of Australian TV and New Zealand TV, film and theatre. You'll know him from shows like All Saints, Pack to the Rafters, Xena Warrior Princess, 800 Words, Aftertaste, Black Snow, and in films like Somersault, The Black Balloon, Storm Boy, The Boys Are Back. Um, fun fact, I was actually an extra in The Boys Are Back when I was about 16. See? There I am. Hello, Curly. Also, his latest film, Kangaroo Island, is now streaming on Netflix, so make sure you check that one out as well. I was really lucky to meet Eric a couple of years ago at a masterclass that he was running at Adelaide Studios. And you know they say don't meet your heroes. Well, Eric is absolutely an exception to that rule because he's as down to earth and as lovely as he seems on TV. He's also been a really big uh supporter of the podcast, which I'm just so, so grateful for. And it's not your typical actor interview, which is why it sort of ties into what I was talking about before. It's a very honest and introspective and unscripted conversation. Um, you know, he's really honest about some of the choices that he's made uh in his personal life to make this career happen. And it's really interesting to hear him reflect on where he is now and how he's still navigating this ever-changing industry. And I really love when he's talking about how easy it is to get caught up in all the career talk and how essential it is to bring yourself back to your art and to remind yourself why you're doing it in the first place, you know. Go back to basics and enjoy the process, refocus on the craft itself, you know. Yeah. And it's kind of funny. He he's had this amazingly consistent career and he's still stuck with the classic actor's curse of worrying about what comes next. I think you'll be all right, Eric. I don't think you'll need to don the Bunnings apron anytime soon. But yes, it was an honor to sit down with him. I still can't believe I get to have these conversations. It's it's so amazing. And um, just for context, this was recorded not long after I had recorded the episode with Damon Herriman. So um, just so you know, that's who we're talking about at the start of this chat. All right, let's get into it. Please hit subscribe um on YouTube or wherever you're listening. Give us a follow on Instagram, and I don't know, send this episode to three friends. Now please enjoy my very cool chat with the legendary Eric Thompson.

unknown 6:17

He's the nicest guy.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah, so lovely.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah. And he's got a long career and you know, really interesting, colourful career. He shows up everywhere, he's always working, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

He's he's yeah, he's on the go. He's on the go. He's full on, yeah. It was cool. It was really cool. It was it was great to see as well. Like sort of great, great to see. I was just observing, I'm like, oh, so that's the hustle. The hustle. That's how you end up in Tarantino films, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's the thing is he just he just available for work. Work drives his his life. I mean, he just he's yeah in the US, yeah, here, ever anywhere the workers he goes. Yeah, yeah. That's the big thing. How how do you work? How have you sort of well, you know, similar to to Damon really ult ultimately um when I started, you know, when I left drama school, the New Zealand Drama School in 1990, yeah, I had this attitude that I was just gonna work and I was gonna go wherever the work was. Yeah. I wasn't gonna stay in Wellington or go to Auckland and just sit in Auckland and just wait for the jobs to come to me there. Yeah, yeah. And I took work um down at the Fortune Theatre in Dunedin. There was at the time there was these community theatre companies, professional, yeah, that were funded by the government, and they were professional repertory theatres where you would the the play would run for three weeks, and while that play was running, you'd be rehearsing the next one during the day, and then when that one shut, you'd do it go into production a week and you'd open again. So straight out of drama school and five plays in six months. Wow. And then I went to the court theatre in Christchurch, yeah, that had a similar model. And I did that kind of

The Early Gypsy Years In Theatre

SPEAKER_02 7:45

work for a few a few years. I went Christchurch, Auckland, Christchurch, Auckland. Yeah. Um, and then I came to Australia after five years of doing that kind of repertory thing. And so it was, you know, I just it I I didn't I didn't, you know, heaps of different rental houses. Yeah. I just moved where the work was. So I continued working, but um I was just a gypsy, you know. And that's yeah, kind of it's kind of been the way it's it's always been the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

I think I think you kind of it seems it's the only way to go about it because you just you have to be you just kind of always have to have a go bag and be ready to sort of you know, catch the next gust of wind, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

And and it's that constant personal life work-life balance. Yeah like people who stay in the same place find that difficult work-life balance. But when you're an actor, um, if you want to work, you've got to be prepared to travel, and then you've got to find ways of making your personal life work. Yeah. And and that's a real challenge. And over the over the years that becomes harder and harder, especially when you have kids, and yeah, for the first few years the kids are just basically just go wherever you are, but then they start developing their own. Yeah, they've got their own lives, yeah, yeah. And then you have to go off and work and you stay at home, and you know, you're you know, so you're managing to continue the career, but you know, it's it's a difficult juggle.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

It is, yeah. I'm I'm realizing all that, like I'm I'm sort of looking into the future and I'm going, how is this how's this gonna work? And then that's that's the big thing on my mind right now, is like the sort of stress of you know, setting up setting up a life that's gonna work for me, and you know, you know, surviving and prospering and you know, maybe buying a house one day if if that ever happens to my generation. But yeah, you know, and then thinking, but I how am I gonna pursue this this thing as well? Yeah. And you know, you're always at this kind of crossroads. But I think maybe that feeling just never goes away. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

The perhaps the the the kind of work that you're doing might get bigger and might get a bit more, you know, kind of national or international or whatever. But you know, you s I mean I read stories about the you know, the big Hollywood stars who are dealing with that, you know, they deal with it, you know, but they're not just going up the road between between LA and New York, they're going you know to Prague to shoot a film, then they go to South Africa to shoot a film. And yeah, you see people like Teresa Palmer who keeps manages to keep her family together.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

It's amazing as a as a if there's anyone that like if you think it's impossible to make it work, you look at Teresa Palmer's life and you can make it work.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

And she's just decided that's gonna be the way. And in reflection, I think, you know, I I I would there was probably times where I should have taken my family, and you know, you you make those decisions and you don't know how it's gonna work out, but you know, it's when you're working away from home, you're um you know, you're busy when you're at work, but then you come home and you come home to an empty room and you're sitting on the phone, um you know, talking to your kids or talking to your wife, and and uh you know so it could be a lonely job. Yeah, and I think um there's it's uh there's a a well-worn track there of people who've found that difficult, and I've found that difficult, but it's just you know, you you've you've constantly got to be trying to um yeah, trying to hustle for work, and and if if things start to slow down, you say speak to the agent and say, Look, I'll go to Melbourne and talk to some casting agents down there, or can I can you get me a meeting with someone at the Melbourne Theatre Company, or I'll go back to New Zealand and have a couple of meetings, yeah, just to keep tilling the soil and kind of um you know cultivating uh uh um an air of of being available to whoever and you'll go where the work is. Obviously, there's some jobs that they'll say, Oh, you need to be Sydney based, and that means basically you've got to fund yourself to Sydney and put yourself up there. Yeah, yeah. But I don't do that anymore. But um early on I would travel where the work was and just have to find a place to live or find a room in a house.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

And so where where are you based now? Well, I'm based in Hobart. Right, yeah. Well, that's a that's a great place.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

It's a great place, you know. I mean and these days, you know, when I when I came to Adelaide, um, because I was living in Sydney for a long time, I did did um All Saints there, and then after All Saints did a The Alice, and then I I did I presented Getaway like the travel show for you and and it meant that we could live anywhere as long as we were near an airport. And um Caitlin, my wife, uh my ex-wife, um, she um lived here and we um decided to move down here or her family were from here and move here down to Port Willonga, yeah, and I'd go off and do the work. And so before I moved to South Australia, I spoke to Nikki Barrett, who's a casting agent in Sydney, and I said, Look, uh Nikki, you know, how how how would you as a casting agent

Family, Travel, And Work-Life Juggle

SPEAKER_02 12:30

perceive me as an actor if I was living in Adelaide? Yeah. And this is around about 2013, 2012, 2013. And she said, Eric, I have I have people who live in Sydney, where she's based, who send me self-tapes. Yeah. They didn't go in for the for the auditions. They would rather do a self-tape. So she kind of said, It doesn't really matter where you live now. Um and but to know. And interesting that this is 2013. This is 2013, and and things have got a lot easier to self-tape these days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do it on your phone, obviously, and you know, and and and it's very simple. So I took that as a as a green light to move to Adelaide. But yeah, I I I you can live anywhere. And now that the the only long-running drama that's shooting in Australia now is home and away. It's the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

And that's 45 weeks a year.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

When I did All Saints back in the late 90s, early 2000s, that was 44 weeks a year. We'd shoot a w an episode a week. So there was a lot of long-running dramas on the free-to-ware networks that you could actually work a normal job.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

You would be working all year or most of the year, and um uh you could just have a relatively normal life. Whereas now the model is like six episodes on Netflix or Stan or even the ABC do six to eight episodes. Yeah, yeah. So the shoots are shorter. Yeah. So when you get a job, even if it's in another s state, you're probably gonna be away for three months max. Yeah. If you're a lead, if you're a a you know, a recurring character, you might fly and fly out and get 10, 15 days work over that period of time.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

So really now you can be anywhere, and living in Hobart, as long as there's an airport nearby, you can send your tapes in and um and then just travel with the workers.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

So how's that? I mean, you've had this like amazing TV career for since the beginning, right? Pretty much. Straight out of well, I mean, even before you moved to Australia, yeah, you know. But how has the model affected the way that you approach work and approach um all your life and and the choices that you make? Because it's you know, if you if you're not working for 45 weeks of the year anymore, you know, the instability is suddenly, you know, the instability is really ramped up.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. And in terms of my approach to the work, I think not being in a long-running series now, and I was lucky, I I kind of surfed that um free-to-wear network, commercial network drama from the when the wave started breaking to the all the way to the beach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's dissipated, and now it's now it's this new model of the streaming network. So this this shorter run dramas. Yeah. Um so I think now there's probably a little bit more of an air of desperation, which is probably the worst thing you can have to walk into an audition. You're paddling out now. You're paddling back out trying to find a way. Yeah, and the waves are shorter, yeah, yeah. Um to carry on that that analogy there. And you know, I I think it's harder for younger actors because it's very it's harder to actually make a name for yourself. Yeah. Because if you're in Blue Healers or All Saints, or Water Rats or McLeod's daughters or whatever it might be, you were in people's living rooms every Tuesday night at half past eight. Yeah. They had no other choice. Yeah. And it was all the family together. People weren't split up on their devices watching whatever they want to watch. They watched one show at a time. Yeah. And you know, the the bridy carters and the and the Lisa McCunes and the Georgie Parkers and the Rec Rebecca Gibbys, yeah, they they could develop their their brand and their name, and they became household names, and so their careers could kick off and and off they off they'd go into the next thing. Yeah. Um the difference now is with the streaming uh services, uh because their their audience is international, they need to be able to sell it to international markets. So they tend to try and populate their casts with one or two uh um international actors, British or American

Self-Tapes And Living Anywhere

SPEAKER_02 16:30

actors in the lead roles. Yeah. So having a domestic profile um doesn't necessarily help you anymore. Right. Um, so that's that's the different thing. You've basically got to get the gigs on your own merit because a lot of the times when you put a tape down, you're not doing it for the Australian producer, you're doing it for the Americans or the British producers or the international sales agent who don't who have no idea who you are. Yeah. So they're looking at you just as an actor. Yeah. So you can't rely on your reputation if it's a good reputation. You can't rely on that to get you a gig. You've got to do the work, um, which is, you know, it's it's a little bit boring, but uh it's also a challenges me to actually go if I'm gonna carry on do doing that or continue to do this, I've just really got to burrow into the work. I've got to do the best auditions and I've got to and it's a kind of new world for me, really, in that regard, because I'd be I would work for Channel 7 for a long time and I'd and I'd get offered work without auditioning. Yeah, yeah. Not just at 7, but at various places, and still occasionally do. Um but now I'm I'm there, it's a level playing field for all Australian actors and Australian productions.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, that's wild, isn't it? It's yeah, it's it's very daunting because I, you know, I grew up watching, you know, all the shows, you know, all the shows that you in in sort of your era of TV and all the shows that you were in. And when I sort of got into the the idea of you know into into my head of becoming an actor, that was the model where all b my generation are basing it off. Like, you know, we we can get on TV and and all this stuff. And then by the time we actually sort of come come of age, yeah, like, oh, where's the industry gone? You know, what is this? And and so we're kind of just like, we're not even paddling out, we're just we're treading, we're just floundering out of the room. Yeah, exactly. We don't even know where to start, we don't even know how to, you know. Yeah, it's it's an interesting point, really.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Um and then I look at I look at your generation, I see what you're doing, like say this podcast, like with with the workshop that we did, and people like Nick, you know, doing the the the schools and you know, trying to work to try and find to create a um an industry yourself or to create an identity as actors and to feel yeah uh like professional actors, even though the jobs might not be flowing in as quickly as they might have in the in the day. Yeah, I get that sense that you're keeping yourself as ready as possible for when the opportunity arrives. Yeah, yeah. And that's the key. I think so. I think waiting for that break.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Just as soon as the door opens, we're like we're on the forefront of their minds.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, and you're prepared and you're not resting on any laurels. Yes, yeah, yeah. You're working with each other, you know, you're you're putting, you're learning how to you're doing auditions, you're helping each other out, and just that persistence, I think, um will eventually pay off. Yeah, I hope so. Well, either either it I mean, you know, look to be uh the only negative side of it is that you're you're developing these skills that you can then pass on to other people and you can maybe try and monetize that um to try and find a way to stay in the industry while and the industry is still working itself out.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Well, that's the thing.

From Network TV To Streaming Reality

SPEAKER_00 19:40

I think it's changing so quickly and and it's going through such a transition. Uh and I don't think it's settled into what we what what we want it to be yet. I think it's it's obviously not make I don't know, I don't really know the ins and outs, but I I get the sense it's not making as it's not making the money it used to. Yeah. And so this model can't really work forever. And so, but at some point it's got to settle into something comfortable. And when it does, you know, when that wave hits again, to bring back the metaphor, yeah, we might be able to ride it for a little while. We might get we might get five to ten, twenty years out of it, you know. Yeah, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

And yeah, you're right, the it the industry is trying to work itself out. Um I think the the like in America, if you want to uh because it's got a population of 350 million, yeah, if you want to make a show about 14-year-old skateboarders, yeah, there's probably about five million 14-year-old skateboarders that would be interested. So that's a f an audience of five million people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas in Australia there might be 500,000, which isn't a big enough audience to justify or pay for that that show. So because the audiences are all splintered, so the older people are maybe watching midsummer murders or you know, which is terrible cliche to say, but perhaps you know, more old-fashioned kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

There'll be the surfers who want to watch surfing stuff, there was the skateboarders, there's the you know, younger women who might want to watch the kind of euphorias or whatever demographic split it can be. That's kind of what the that's what the streaming services have done to the audience, is they've fragmented their audience. Yeah. And I guess from their kind of business model is that they know exactly who they're pitching to. Yeah. And they can, you know, they can um milk that. Yeah. But whereas in Australia, we we just don't have the population. But now we've got the streaming quota. And there's a in my case, the jury's still out with as to whether it's actually going to make a difference. I'm not sure because I don't really trust that big end of time of town to do the right thing. Right. They're not altruistic, you know, they're moneymakers and they're internationals. Um, and they're not they're not necessarily passionate about uh seeing Australians on television, uh hearing their voices, hearing our stories, seeing us do a a murder mystery or Seeing us do a euphorio of our own.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

They're very much about wanting to sell it to the rest of the world. So they're sort of sorting it out as well. But yeah, as an actor in that environment, what I'm discovering certainly over the last two or three years is very much you need to just focus really right back into the work. Yeah. Try and forget about the business models. And I know we just talked about that, but actually go, okay, what does this character want? What does he need? Yeah. How am I going to do this audition? Yeah. How am I going to stand out? That's the focus. Yeah. That's your job at the moment. Absolutely. The big picture you can't manage. I mean, that you say that about a lot of a lot of things, I think. Just, you know, focusing in on am I passionate about storytelling? Am I passionate about doing this? As difficult as it is, finding a way to survive, having a side hustle or two side hustles. Yeah. Developing other skills. I mean, my problem at the age of 58, having had 35 years in the industry and working a lot when the industry was at its best, I never developed any other skills. I can barely make a coffee. So I don't like I I haven't had I haven't had many side jobs. Yeah. So I don't have any. I mean, you know, you can look at so I'm kind of like 58 going, okay, the industry's changed radically. Yeah. And and now I'm trying to negotiate my place in that. And you know, it's uh it's an interesting period, but you know, you I think and sometimes it can be overwhelming if you think about the big picture. Yes. But just keep it down to the day.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I think I think you're right. You know, I talk about this because I think it's for me, it's important to set my own expectations. So I to get a general understanding of where it's at now, the industry and and the you know, it's not what it was in the 90s or the early 2000s, you know. So set your expectations of you know what an acting career looks like for now, and you know, know that, but then bring it back down to, as you said, like bring it back down to why are you actually doing this? What do you enjoy about it? Yeah, and you know, stay humble. And it's you know, I I work really hard with in with a small business cleaning houses, you know, and that's that's my bread and butter. Yeah, doesn't mean I'm not an actor, no, but I'm not working very much as an actor, you know. No, but yeah, that's just the

Casting For A World Market

SPEAKER_00 24:20

reality of of what it is, and and I but I'm really enjoying this this little journey, and this it's kind of adventurous and exciting, and you don't know what's around the corner, and when they come up, it's really fun, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah, and and um as you were talking about that, I remember Sam Neal was interviewed at this mental health um film that was made called The Show Must Go On, and they interviewed Sam and he said, you know, people you know they say, I'm what do you do? I'm an actor. It's the question is, what do you do when you're not acting? Yeah, because you only do that for a very small period of time. Yeah. Whether it's on film, you might be shooting four minutes a day of screen time, um, and there might be months between jobs or whatever. Um who who is Chris? Who is Eric when you're not acting?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Um, ignoring that side is to your own detriment because ultimately that focus and that all I want to do, but you've got to be you've got to be passionate. But like I said at the very beginning, being too needy, yeah. Not that we walk into lots of audition rooms these days because there's lots more tape self-tapes, but yeah, if you're too needy when you walk into a room, it's written all over your face. Yeah, they can smell it, eh? Yeah. You kind of got to go. Yeah, I'm I'm really comfortable with who I am. Yeah, I've got my life, I'm here because I want to I I I'm good for this role, yeah, and I'm gonna do my best, but my whole life doesn't depend on it. Yes. Um, take it or leave it. I think without being arrogant about that, yeah, but that's within yourself knowing who you are, yeah, and doing that. And you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to be the best you can possibly be, as opposed to just go, I'm I'm at I am at where I'm I am where I'm at. Yeah, yeah. I remember somebody said to me about when I was doing stage, you know, especially when you're doing eight performances a week, you know, and you're when you arrive at work every day, you're in a different head space. Yeah. You've either had a great day and you're feeling pumped or you've got lots of energy. And other days you're flat. And the pressure that you might put on yourself as an actor is to go, I need to get to that place every night. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to going, I'm gonna go from where I'm at. And that's gonna inform the choices that I make on stage. Yeah. Um, it's gonna make that performance different, yeah. And get rid of the whole better or worse thing, it'll just be different. Yes, yeah. I think this the thing that's similar with um with the audition process, if you if you're trying to hit a certain level, yeah, then you can be pushing it too much. Yeah, you know. So when I, you know, started I did eight 800 words for the Seven Network, and I was an associate producer and was involved in the casting process. Yeah. And it was the and similarly, I was one of the producers on Aftertaste, so I was part of the casting process, watching the tapes.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Knowing that the actors were, you know, at Angela Heesum's or or up at Mora Fay's, and we were watching their auditions 10 minutes after they'd done them. So it's kind of in real time almost. Yeah. And then you've as a producer, you've got your idea of what you're trying to make. You don't know exactly what it is you're looking for, yeah, but when you see it, you know. Yeah. And it's got nothing to do with the quality of the actors. Yeah. It's got everything to do with does this person suddenly fit the world that you're trying to create?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So what kind of performance or not even performances, but what kind of like auditions were the ones that really connected you to the to that person? Or because it's not, yeah, as you said, it's not about like, was it the best performance? Was there humanity behind the eyes? You know, was there a human in there? You know, that wasn't just trying to get a role, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Well, everyone's different. I mean, and and that's they say you get a hundred people playing Hamlet, yeah. Same lines, the same

Focus Back On Craft And Auditions

SPEAKER_02 28:10

story, they're all different. Yeah. Why are they different? Because the content of every person is different. Yes. The way that they've lived and the way that they see the world, the way they interpret the dialogue, the way they the things that resonate with them, yeah, makes their Hamlet different from the next Hamlet. And that's why Hamlet, you know, that it's great writing because there's so much depth there.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Similar with an audition process, usually the writing isn't, you know, Shakespeare, as good as Shakespeare, or pretty much, you know, well, a lot of the times. Yeah. You're but you're having to bring your interpretation of that. And I think even though you might not be the right person in the in the say 10 cast members that are trying to be cast, if you go in there and not try to give the director or the casting person what you think they want to see, yeah, you are being true to your own interpretation. Yeah. And you go, this is how I see it. And then if you're in the room, you'll get given a bit of direction and see whether you can actually change it. You've always got to be prepared for that. But certainly with self-tapes, you've got no context usually. Yeah. And you just have to you just have to go, okay, this is how I see it. Yeah. This is what I'm going to do. And you kind of have to trust the instinct. Trust your instincts and trust that the value that you have as a person is different to the other person. Yeah. And as long as you're tapping into that, yeah, your audition will be different. So what stands out is as you're saying, the humanity behind the eyes. Really, that sort of sums it up. Yeah, yeah. When you go, okay, that's good, and I see that person in this world. Um you've also got to take into account this this these are all things that take pressure off the actor, you as an actor, because say they've already cast three of the leads. Yeah. You're looking at the the spectrum that you've got to fill. What will get you in that place is does your version of the character fit into that world? And that's completely beyond your control, your power.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Completely beyond your power. So if you know that when you put your audition down, you're not getting the job because you're not good. You're just not getting the job because someone's version of that fits into the world better. Yeah. So it's another another thing to take the pressure off yourself.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah, totally. And there's much as you can do that. Control. You don't have control over this, you don't have any power. You don't know. You there's no way that you have any any sort of power over the outcome of this. It's just own your version of it, yeah, put it out there, yeah, take it or leave it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah and I mean hope it fits, but you know, and and one example is um in Aftertaste, Susan Pryor, who played my sister in the in the role in the thing. She we did a record, she she came into the room at Heesum's, and um as soon as she walked in the room, yeah, we knew it was her. Her energy was absolutely perfect before she even got in front of the camera. Because we knew she could act, she's a bloody great act. She's great, yeah, yeah. Um, and we went, we want that. Yeah, we want that energy there. Yeah. And boom, it was just it was a it was a laid an Mazier, basically. It was there was no competition. How good is she, man? She's so good.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I went to Ben Lee with her recently. Oh, really? Well, here in Adelaide. Well, when I had Damon on, he was like, We're going to Ben Lee tonight. Do you want to come? I was like, met Susan there. What's the real message? It was like, yeah. I was I wasn't even watching, I was just like, where am I right now? This is what did he play? Was he at the theater? The gov. Oh, the gov. Oh wow, that would have been great. It was awesome, man. Yeah, it was a good night. Yeah. Yeah. Susie was also. I want to get her on as well. Oh, you should definitely.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah, she's got very she'll have very, you know, interesting um stories and um viewpoints on the career. She's been around probably as long as as I have. Yeah. Um certainly had an interesting career.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, so are you auditioning a lot these days? I mean, do you do you I mean, because you know, you know, back in the day, Channel 7 would just give you offers, you know, here's the next thing that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

What's that like for you now? Are you are you self-taping a lot? Are you going in or are you still getting offers for things or yeah, occasionally I get offers, you know, it it depends on the project.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Um and I don't mind. Yeah, I don't mind doing it, you know. Yeah, of course. You know, usually I would take an offer because I go, phew, I don't have to go through that process. Yeah. Um, but it's all it's all part of the process. Yeah, yeah. Is is looking at the character, even if you haven't got it, and working out what you can do with it. And and if it's just you're doing it because it's just a formality and then you'll get the job, yeah. You've got a relationship with the material, yeah. And you can then build on that and go actually I I reckon I could take it over there or do that. Yeah. But the thing is, you know, re realistically, I'm this I think I've only this year, I've only maybe put two tapes down in a whole year. You're right. It's like there is not being a lot of work, you know, for reasons that

Producing, Casting Rooms, And Fit

SPEAKER_02 33:10

we're talking about before. I think um waiting on this streaming service quota that's finally about to go through, part of it's been through the the lower house and has to go through the Senate. But um that might it might mean there's gonna be more work coming up. Yeah. Um and and yes, self-tapes, again, it it it applies to everyone, is that you don't really know what they want. Exactly. Yeah, totally. You know, sometimes you can ask if you can speak to the casting director or um because again, you've got executive producers and producers who aren't Australia-based. So they want to see everyone. Unless you're Sam Worthington or Hugo Weaving, perhaps probably, and you know, people who who have a high profile, they want to see everyone. So you, you know, it it's a it's a good leveler.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

And you know, and humility, I think you mentioned staying humble.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

I think that's super important. And it's very much part of our Australian work ethos. Yeah. Don't be a dickhead, no, another dickhead's policy. You know, that it is we're ostensibly, we are, you know, we're we're all on the same level. Yeah. And I think it's good to be reminded about that constantly, as much as sometimes it's nice to be given a bit of a pat on the back and then be raised up a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, yeah. But maybe maybe we could raise each other up a little bit more in Australia, you know, instead of this tall poppy thing that feels a bit old school now.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

It is a bit old school, yeah. It is a bit, it is a bit dull. And it really comes from, you know, um, I mean, I think uh competition, yeah, you know, insecurities, people's insecurities, yeah. And and the the sense of feeling as an actor that you're not enough. Yes. You go, I've I'm giving everything that I can for this job, yeah, and I'm still not getting it. Yeah. Maybe I'm not enough. And then you start going down that road of self loathing, the worst case scenario, and um self-sabotage, whatever it might be, is is that you and that's that thing of you work on technique and you work on scene work, don't forget about yourself. Yes. Um I've I did that for a period and I it bit me on the ass, you know. Like I think um where you forget about yourself so much, you've got to really look after what you've you know, who you are, what you've got, keeping a really strong sense of your own identity. Yes. And then you can depart and play other roles, but you've you've got to know what you're coming back to.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I think that I think that gets to me a bit sometimes. I think because I mean, even doing this, it's it's a lot, it's a lot of work, yeah. And there's many reasons why I'm doing it. Um there's lots of really obviously really positive reasons why I'm doing it, but then there's there's also the the business side of it, which is marketing, yeah, you know, and when it becomes a lot of work and when it gets exhausting, that's when you start going down that road of why isn't it working? I need it to work now because I'm getting tired, I'm burning out, you know. Yeah, and then that's when you start really, you know, you push or or you start self-sabotaging or you get in your head, or you so you start doing bad work, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Yeah, and it it's um you know, again, that's kind of all content and that whole idea of the struggling actor, the tortured actor, the tortured artist. Yeah, you know, recently I was I was in New York recently and I I went to the hotel, Chelsea Hotel, yeah, where Dylan Thomas died, Brendan Bean died, Sid killed Nancy or whatever, and you know, and a lot of the people that lived in there back in the day during the the factory, you know, Andy Warhol's factory and everything, they they were all had really tortured lives. Yeah, yeah. And they all died young. And they were they were living this the that sort of archetypal, if you like, um tortured artist, and it's just such a waste, you know. It's uh to be creative and to put it out there, but it but behind the scenes to be just just smiling.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

You gotta look after yourself out outside of it all, right? You do, yeah, you do, and and you know that that's becoming more and more at the forefront of these discussions, I think, you know, really preserving yourself, you know. Because if you're doing a lot of work, like so I did this show called 800 Words, and in it I played a man getting over the death of his wife. So I was a widower, starting off in a new country. Um, so I had that the cat I had the character's emotional plane. I was doing 70 hour weeks, I was driving myself to work, driving myself back, doing 12-hour days, yeah, and every week, and being in pretty much every scene, having to learn lines when I got home at night, so and for six months. Yeah, yeah. So it was on my plane, and I was away from my family for the third season of that. Yeah. So you've got these different planes of emotional difficulty that you're that you're existing in. And it it kind of builds up. Yeah. You know, it kind of builds up, and then you put that in the context of a whole career of doing that. And whether they're emotional, emotional toxins, if you like, that you're clogged up with all this, all these characters that you didn't quite get rid of, yeah. Experiences, traveling a lot, whatever it might be, yeah, builds up in you uh um over a

Humility, Identity, And Not Being Needy

SPEAKER_02 38:30

long period of time. I think finding a way to flush that every day, every day, whether it be meditation or to or do making sure you do long walks or having little rituals, yeah, to be able to flush that every day again to come back to yourself. Yeah. What do you do? I know you surf a lot. Well, I surf as much as I can, but I mean that's you know, it's it it's difficult. And I don't I I I you know I can sit here and I can tell you all these things that you should do. Oh yeah, but it's it's always easier said than done, isn't it? It's easier said than done, and I'm I'm aware of it.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Um getting out of the head and into the body is always good. So, you know, just going for a walk in the bush, yeah, or going for a surf or going for a swim, even if it's super cold, just get in that water and dunking yourself in cold Tasmanian water. I do it quite often because I just the minute I go under, I just want to get out, and I usually do, but in that moment I get reset. Yeah, yeah. Getting back into the body, um, doing it, just dropping and doing 10 push-ups, yeah. Just getting out of here because this is our friend and it's our foe. You know, yeah. Um certainly in a um in an acting environment where you you spend a lot of time with your emotions and your your own stuff and and the and your characters, um I think yeah, you've got to find a way to to to remain sort of mentally healthy healthy.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

And remind yourself who you are outside of acting, who you are, and and what your identity is and your place in in the world outside of these pretend scenarios. These pretend scenarios, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah.

unknown 40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Because you never know what's around the around the corner. And you know, a couple of days ago I was just I was just going, okay, I I I I know enough to know now that if I I I I remain hopeful because I know that my life can change in a second with a phone call.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

And a few days ago I was just like, I don't know what's happening next year's. I've got work starting in June.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

It's June, I mean it's six months away, seven months away. What am I going to do till then?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

You know, there's there's a few things that are testing for you know the early next year. I've kept my schedule open for per potential film and television work, but it's not it's it's intangible. Yeah. And then I get a phone call saying, Do you want to do it? You've been offered a theater gig in Sydney.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Do you want to do it? Starts late March. And I have a few days to think about it, which I do, and I decide to do it. Yeah. Um, and in that, in that those couple of days of deciding to do it, my whole approach to my the structure of my life, yeah, the acknowledgement of myself as an actor, it was coming from external forces telling me that I'm okay, that I'm still good, and I still have a career. Yeah. Because three days before I'm going, I'm shit. Yes. No one wants to employ me anymore. Yeah. What's going on? Yeah. There's no meritocracy anymore. What's all my life? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Was there ever? There would have been maybe there was back in the in the 90s. I think maybe there was.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Again, you know, you're back in the 90s, you know, you were your household names and and the the network heads could guarantee that if you were a logie winner or a nominee, that you were going to bring audience with you to a show. So when they were casting a show, they were looking at those kind of things. These days it doesn't sort of really matter anymore. But that over the the the you know, the the the thing that you at the sort of relative beginning of your career and me the sort of towards the middle to late part of my career. Middle. Oh yeah, middle, let's say. Let's let's say late, yeah. Touch wood. Um the one thing that never goes away is is dealing with your yeah, dealing with these things that we're talking about, keeping keeping focused on the work and and just remembering that it's a play.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

And in that word, it's play. It's play. Gotta be playful about it, even if it's a really difficult scene.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

And in enjoy it and be present while it's happening, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Be present and remind yourself of that every single day, yeah. Uh, one way or the other, because again, the grey matter has a way of actually taking you down. Somebody said to me recently, you know, negative thoughts, your brain latches onto negative thoughts because they're far more um visceral than positive thoughts. Right. It's not as exciting for the brain to give you positivity, yeah. Um, but it knows, talking about it like it's a third person, but it knows that if it gives you a negative, you're gonna really stew on that. Yeah, and it's gonna give it lots of work to do and you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Yeah. So what what aside from like, you know, waiting for the phone to ring, I mean, and and you know, we talked about like, you know, things that I'm doing and like things that Nick Launchbury is doing, and you know, us that are sort of at the beginning of this whole thing, but um still trying to stay adjacent to it just in case a door opens. Yep. Okay, if you know 2025 and you were you know early 20s or or even th mid 30s, yeah. Like I feel like on 20, because we we all missed a bunch of years during COVID, right? You know, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

The body knows that it's it's not, but the you know you still have it.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yeah, um we're all stuck in that in that age, right? How would you sort of approach it, you know? Um, because I as you said the meritocracy's kind of out the window. Even the the sort of prestige of like going to a a certain drama school might not make as much of a difference

Mental Health, Rituals, And Reset

SPEAKER_00 43:40

anymore. No, I don't think it does. It seems to be we seem to be s going down this pathway or or stuck in this sort of avenue of online presence and just blasting yourself, your face in front of people constantly, which is you know what I am I feel like I have to do and and um it can. It feels gross, but you know, it's kind of where we're at. That whole self promotion thing. Yeah. Yeah. Which it's a really thing makes me lie in bed and go, Oh my god, what am I doing? You know selling myself. Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Yeah. Soliciting.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

But well, I mean, where where would you start? If you were if you were back at the start of your career and in 2025, where would you start?

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Well, to put it in context, when I was 20, like I was graduate, I left drama school at 24. Yeah. I did a degree of did a degree before that at university. Um back then, if you wanted to make a film, yeah, you literally had to shoot it on film, yeah, on a film camera. So that's gonna cost you money. Yes. It's getting a film camera, getting someone who knows how to work it.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Um, they're a big clunky things. So, you know, if you sat around with a bunch of friends and said, Let's make a film like Peter Jackson, he was at Wellington around about the time I was there. Yeah, you know, that's what he would do, and he would it would take him, you know, four years to make bad taste on Super 8mm and stuff. And that was the beginning of his career. These days, you're all savvy with digital technology. Yes. And you can sit around a table and say, Let's make a feature film, or let's make uh a web series. Yeah. Who's got an iPhone 15, 16, or 17? Yeah. Let's make it. We can you you know how to edit. Yeah. You know how to mix it, yeah. You know how to package it and market it. It's no different from and and at the end of the day, the performances and the story and the look of it is gonna be pretty good. Yeah. You know, it's gonna be in 4K on your phone. Yeah. So that's the advantage is that you can sit around and you can say, What will we do this weekend? Let's make a film. Yeah. Short film. Yeah. What's the beginning, what's the middle, what's the end? Who are you playing? Who's gonna be the director? Have anyone got a monitor? Yep, cool, and you just get together. I'm sure you might have done this, I don't know, but you're working with people that are able to do that. Yeah, that's the advantage. Yeah. And so whether it that that product will find, well, it will find somewhere to go because you can just put it onto Instagram or you can pop it onto Facebook or YouTube or whatever. So that's the advantage. And so I would say, as well as doing the other stuff is auditioning for the SASTC, and if you want to do stage, or you just say, I don't want to do that, or I would say just do it, do whatever you can.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Um work on stuff, but get savvy with technology.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Um, surround yourself with people who are like-minded and passionate about storytelling and and enjoy making films and getting together, and that's your kind of social thing. Yeah. Um, that's the advantage that you have. And you never know. You know, that that thing that you do, like I remember I don't she didn't do it directly, but Yolanda Ramke, who was the um, she was a runner on rafters. She and and I had a big chat to her one day and driving me from location to home. And she it is I discovered she was a writer and stuff, and you know, she ended up making a short film um called Cargo.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

You know, she made the short, and I think it either I don't know if it won Tropfest. Right. But then she got money to develop it into a feature film. Really? That might be a good one. Somehow that came about. Yeah, yeah. So she did the short.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

She did the feature, and now she's working, you know, as a a writer, creator on various projects, international projects, because she she just started there, you know, she started doing that stuff, and and that's it. If you've got a good idea, yeah, it's it's as valuable as a diamond, you know, like you, you, you know, and it's gonna stand. If it's if it's really good, it's gonna stand up. And you might make a hundred short films, yeah, and one of them is gonna be the one that's gonna like go viral. Yeah, yeah. Those two letter two words is the kind of thing, is just keep keep telling stories, yeah. Um you know, go behind the camera, get in front of the camera. Yes. Um, be a director, writer, producer, actor. Yeah, you've got the ability to do that, do it. Do courses, short courses at Afters, short course courses through the SAFC or any film bodies that have them. Go to seminars, free seminars, you know, um, equity have a lot of things. Just immerse yourself in the world

Offers, Droughts, And The New Quotas

SPEAKER_02 48:30

and get the contacts that you know someone will say, Oh, I need that person. Oh, I'll give that person a call and could you want to come along and make a film? Yeah, yeah, I'll do a little role in a film and I'll bring the catering or whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, that it sounds a little bit twee, but I think that's really where things are at at the moment. That's where they are, yeah. And then the auditions will come along and you'll do them, and you might get a bit of a gig that'll pay you some money and and good, and you never know that might be a an avenue into the next level or whatever that is. But yeah, sitting around waiting for the phone to ring, you've got no excuses these days to do that. No, because you can make a film about sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. Sure, yeah, yeah. By yourself, yeah, at that day. Yeah, and I mean and do all the music for it or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

You know, just keep keep creating and keep um and working with people, meeting people and and being as he said, like being among amongst it and being involved and finding those um opportunities to learn and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

And it's it's the and doing the workshops and and and you know, you you might go to a workshop and you might only learn one thing all weekend. Yeah. And even if that's I this isn't what the way I want to work or I totally yeah. You you're you're putting yourself in those positions where you can you can get you know, you can remain curious and um you know and and and just keep keep passionate about it, you know. Yeah. That's that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

We did a workshop. I did I did your workshop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you still running workshops?

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Well, uh that was the first kind of I I called it a masterclass. I figured, you know, there's comes a point where you could maybe say that. Of course. And I, you know, I taught at Screenwise, which is a school up in Sydney. Yeah. I did I did one term, I think. Um, you know, and and teaching, you know, I that was the first kind of two-day masterclass that I'd done. And I learned a lot about, I think maybe I tried, I was so fixated on making sure everyone got on tape, you know, so it became about how can we quickly get through all of these scenes that's tough, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Because you you want to give people as much time as possible.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Upon the floor, actually acting and in reflection, I go, as actors, you you don't have a lot of time to get vulnerable. So that that was really at the forefront of that one. Was it in and on that first morning, I think, when we went around the group, and I think basically you lay it all down, you you basically open yourself up. Yeah. And this is a safe space. We're gonna support each other, we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

I felt I felt that. Yeah. I felt that in the in the class. Like I felt um, but that it also it's that's a skill that an actor sort of needs to figure out, you know, and learn. It's you know, I I know that it part of my job is you know, I have a short amount of time to break down any inhibitions and just go, it you know, yeah. I don't I I knew a lot of the people in the class, I didn't know you yet. I I didn't know a few people, but it's all it's always like, all right, do your job, yeah, break, break it down. It's okay to get vulnerable very quickly. And that's that's part of the rigor of being an actor is is you know, tapping into that um when it feels so awkward, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Yeah, and you know the the um feeling awkward and feeling anxious, and um, you know, I th I think that's again, you know, that that's the first thing you gotta cut through. And you've got to remember that the person sitting opposite you, and I've worked with you know, do a little bit of in my career, Tony Collette, I did a film with her, Gina Davis, Clive Owen, yeah, um you know, Sam Witherton. That was his first sort of film, um Somersault. But when you're working opposite actors of international quality, you I remember with with in the black balloon with Tony Collette, you know, I I I would love her work and I was just so like, oh, it's Tony Collette, I'll I'll I've really gotta forget about that. Yes. But I I look at I watched that film back and I see me being a little bit meek and not. A do? Yeah, a little bit in a few scenes because I knew how how I was feeling. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

But only only you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Well, maybe only I do, yeah. But I I feel that um I'm jumping around a little bit, but I saw this thing called Um at Tea with the Dames. I don't know if you've ever seen this Dame Judy Densch Joan Plough, right? They start off in the morning drinking tea and then they're onto the gin and tonics in the afternoon, and they sit there talking about how how petrified they are, even at their age 70 or what 80 when they were doing that thing, how petrified they are when they get to set.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

And you would never know. No. Because the biggest skill they develop, apart from interpreting text and the technical side of things, is that they can step outside that anxiety, yeah, and they can step outside that self-consciousness. And anxiety and self-consciousness are our enemies. They're our kryptonite.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

The more self-conscious you are, the more tense you are.

Staying Ready Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Yeah, and you're not giving a unfiltered pure performance. Totally. So, how do you how do you break that down? Um sometimes it's just practice, sometimes it's just going to things, going to do workshops and where you've got to stand up in front of people that you don't know and do a scene and be so nervous and be shaking until you're going the w the the sky didn't fall. Yeah. I'm still surviving. Yeah, I made it. Yeah. And you know, I at the workshop that we did, you know, I I loved that because I saw, you know, people they they they were vulnerable. And I could see that some people were nervous when they got in front of the camera and how it how their demeanour changed as soon as they were in front of the camera from free and easy and fun, yeah, going in front of the camera, and all that stuff goes out the window and the tension comes in. So, how do you get rid of that? Yeah. And how do you find a way to still remain free and easy? And I think experience is a big one. Yeah. Doing it a lot.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Um it's kind of like exposure therapy, you know. The more you do it, the the more you like, okay. That's that's what it felt like to feel really nervous in front of the camera, but do it anyway, you know? Yeah. And maybe next time I'll I might still feel nervous, but I'll know what to do with the nerves, you know. Yeah. Because I I mean, I I get nervous sometimes. I'm probably a bit nervous now, you know, but I'm so it's just it's become like you didn't say it's an it's an enemy, but I kind of like for me, it's like it's it's a friend, it's like it's there, but it's like, all right, so what? You're there. What do you just gonna be there? You're gonna be there, it doesn't matter. Yeah, can you just sit this one out for a moment? I've got something to do, I've got a job, yeah, and you can you can come back afterwards and like and we can lose sleep over it later.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Yeah, and that's you describe your process and how you deal with that, yeah. And you've learnt that through experience. Yeah, but invariably that nervous guy can't in invade or shouldn't invade your performance. No, no, unless you want to harness it. Yeah, totally. What did I do recently? Um, I did something recently, um, can't remember what it was, and the character was kind of anxious or nervous. And and and yet I didn't, or with in conversations with the director, I didn't we had to find a way of it being the character's anxiety and nerves as opposed to mine, yeah. Which is delineation, which might seem it might seem like the same thing, but it's it's a different because it's a choice. Yeah. Is that I realized to begin with, I was harnessing my own nervous energy. Yeah. And therefore I was speaking too quickly, my voice was um was unsupported, it moves into your head, yeah, physically, your diaphragm tightens up, yeah, you're not breathing, all of these physical manifestations of anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Interesting, eh?

SPEAKER_02 56:14

And so we had to talk about how can we communicate this character's anxiety without being anxious. Yeah, without it being yours. Because the audience might think that I'm just an act a nervous actor. Yeah. And I can't I'm I'm I'm just trying to remember what it was.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

But that that whole train of thought would make me anxious, though. Yeah. It's like, oh, am I is this my is this my anxiety or the characters? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

It it is a bit of a mind fuck, you know, when you when you start we're talking and we're looping, and I'm speaking to you as an as an actor and you understand and stuff, and I think that you know your audience probably understand what I'm talking about too. Yeah, it's probably an example again of you can go down a rabbit hole really, really quickly, and it's not going to be helpful. So again, you step back and you go, okay, what do I want? Yeah. What do I need? Yes. And at the end of the day, it doesn't actually matter.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yeah. And maybe that's that's what that conversation ends up coming to, like with your director on that pro whatever the project was, is you guys are you have figured that out. Oh, this is you, this is my anxiety, not the characters. Like, how do we get and then you might end up just going, you know what? Let's stop this train of thought here. Yeah. Let's go back to basics. Yeah. What's going on in the scene? What's this guy? What is this guy? Where is this guy? You know, you go back to that. Go back to that. Yeah. Step one, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

And all of the thought that you've been through, yeah, will be there somewhere in that performance. Sure, yeah, yeah. So, you know, say you go to a read-through, this has happened a lot of times, you go to a read-through and you've got an idea of a play, let's say. Yeah. Um you go to a read-through and you do pretty much what you think you're going to be doing when you get to the opening night.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

And sometimes you it you you do. You're like, you know what you've got to do. The rehearsal process is to is to take you as far away from that and take you through a process. So you maybe arrive back at the same place, but you'll arrive back there having been through a process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you'll say, okay, that might be what you want. Let's try all the other ways of doing it. Yeah. And when you come back to that, if

What To Do If You’re Starting Now

SPEAKER_02 58:20

that's the way we want to go, it'll be enriched because of it. So it's um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

I'm curious though, like, is and and you know, and we're talking before about you know what you would do if you were to start your career now in 2025. But now, in the position that you are in now, and and the fact that the industry is changing so much and has changed so much, and it's all a bit up, feels a bit up in the air. What kind of things or what kind of options do you have from here? You know, because you know, your answer to to my question before was like, you know, go and make a film on an iPhone, right? Which is you know, fantastic advice, and which is I think what we're all kind of doing, we're just we kind of become these multi-hyphenates and we have to become sort of semi-experts in in cinematography or or at least editing or something, you know, and and being able to throw something together just to to make something and and um showcase our skills as actors, because that's ultimately what we want to be doing. But in your position, like do you go down more the pathway of like writing and producing or directing or creating your own work or because I know you have done like you've produced various projects.

SPEAKER_02 59:27

Well, that you know that so when I was doing rafters, for example, Rebecca and I, we didn't have um you know, like credits as producers or whatever, because we came on just as actors. But when you're a senior actor in a show, you do speak to the producers quite often. And so when I did 800 words, I I said, I want a credit, I want as an associate producer. So I could start to be part of that creative process of of casting and location finding and maybe getting the scripts after first or second draft to have a bit a little bit of input into how they're being developed. Yeah. And then with Aftertaste, um, I I basically took the project of Rebecca Somerton at and Matt Bate at um closer with the ABC behind behind the concept of us making it. And Rebecca kind of was the producer in the way that went through her company, and she knows how to put together a show, the leg the legalities, all of it. And I was much more a you know creative overseer of how things went. I was in all the writers' rooms. So I've got a pretty good idea of how shows put together with those big models, yeah, with um networks, um getting notes from scr network executives and yeah, and and all the helping hands and the hurdles that funding bodies and distributors all all do it. But where I'm at now is so having been in the industry for 35 years, I've worked with a lot of different directors and producers and writers.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

So, right, for example, I just got onto LinkedIn recently and I linked, I sort of um you know got connected with all these people that I that I know in passing, but yeah, are of kind of my generation or sometimes a bit younger, sometimes a bit older, um, who I might want to work with. Yeah. And I saw a writer and I contacted her and we had a message back and forth. I said, I'm living in Hobart, and I said it'd be a great place to do a show. Yeah. And she we flung back and forth a couple of ideas, and before I knew it, she'd written something up. Nice. And then we took it to a producer uh uh production company, a big production company, and they love it. Yeah. And so we're having a chat today, actually. Oh, yeah, on a Zoom about what the next step is.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

So that's kind of at that macro level. Yeah. It's kind of the same as getting around with your mates and an iPhone at one point, but you're getting around with your mates who happen to have done that 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now they're all in positions where they've got direct access to funding bodies and they can ring up someone at Screen Australia and say, what about this? Can we have a meeting? When's the next application's close? Yeah. So you're thinking about markets, you know, and and a lot of people are doing that. Um, and at the moment we've got a real glut in development and then a bottleneck, because there's not a lot of people who are who are buying the shows and making the shows. So you've got everybody's in development at the moment, yeah. Waiting for the the dam to to burst or whatever. Um and hopefully it'll mean that over the next couple of years, with this new legislation, we'll just see production of Australian stories ramp up. Now, I'm really hoping that happens. Yeah. The cynic in me goes, uh, you know, it's it it and and and hopefully there'll be a boom time. The cynic in me is just protecting myself a little bit. Of course. Because I don't want to get too excited. But yeah, so in terms of what I do, I mean, I I I want to continue to I love creating and being part of a creative process. Yeah. Um, sitting around in a writer's room is a f it's great fun because you've got all these people and they all they all take parts themselves, they put it on the table and they would say, Well, I've got the story, but this time might be pertinent. You go, that's great. Yeah. Why don't we weave that into episode three? Yeah. Suddenly you've got all these people becoming this um

Make It Yourself: Phones To Features

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

kind of you know, one brain, and then seeing how it all develops and and then getting on set and shooting it and then launching it. So um over the last few years I've kind of wondered whether that would ever happen again. And you never know, it might, it might not, but I'm I'm if if nothing else, you've got always got to remain hopeful that you're gonna that you know something is gonna happen. And you know, you talk about production companies having slates. So I've got maybe four or five things that are ideas either of mine or somebody at somebody else's that that I can be involved in. Yeah. So you can't just have one project. You've got to have six. Yeah, I can't you're you've got your low budget horror, you've got your six-part Netflix series, you've got something good for the ABC, you've got another bigger budget feature film, you're looking at stories of books that come out that might be able to be optioned. Yeah, yeah. Um, follow writers um and see when their books are out and see whether you can nip in and get the option on that, on the on the book before it goes out there. Because people love things that are based on books because they can see everything just by picking up the book, as opposed to you pitching them a one pager saying, This is a story set on Mars and la la la, and they're and we've got to create the world and all the characters out of thin air. There's a a huge amount of faith that they've got to put in you to do that. Whereas with the book, they they've got a solid manuscript, basically. Yeah, yeah. So these are all, yeah, I'm kind of at that point now where I'm yeah, just needing to generate, you know, work. And when things get quiet, I there's two ways you can go. You can and I've been down both of those roads where you where you get defeated, yeah, and you go, I don't know if I've got the energy to go through all this again. And then you start questioning everything, and you're going, uh maybe I'll just get a job at Bunnings and know what I'm doing week to week to week to week. You know, um and sometimes that seems like a really, really good idea. And then other times you're going, No, I'm gonna utilize this energy, and you know, when the going gets tough, the tough get going, or you know, you I'm gonna I'm actually gonna turn the script around and I'm gonna go, okay, I've got ideas. I'll pick up the phone, I'll send a few emails off, and before you know it, things have kicked up again.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

Yeah. Well, I guess that's it, because you kind of always have this idea that there's someone above you that's making decisions. But like, who's to say that you can't be the Person that sparks the next idea and gets the next ball rolling, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

You know, yeah, and you pick up and and and going back to that thing of working in the per in the in the industry and making contacts and getting to know people and showing up and doing good work and being fun to be around. Yeah. If you ring them up and say, I've got an idea, they're gonna go, great, yeah, let's let's see what happens. And you never know, things can happen exceptionally quickly, yeah, but or they c you know, or they can't. But you know, you there's always the chance that they will. Um and so the difference between starting out is that and where I'm at at this point is that uh like Joe Porter, who's the head of Curio Pictures now, who made uh narrow road to the deep north, and they do high country and a lot of stuff at the moment. And she was the producer, she she's my age, and she um was the associate producer on Pacific Drive, which was the first thing I did in Australia 30 years ago. Yeah. And uh and then she produced All Saints and Packed the Rafters and she's an old friend, and she's moved up the the industry, yeah. And so these are the people that you know now, one or two of you might get an opportunity and then they'll throw you a rope. Yeah, you know, so and in 20 years' time, yeah, the people that you know might be in charge of the the South Australian Film Corporation, like Kate Crozer was the who's the head of the SAFC now. She was the production manager on a short film that I made here, was in here about 25 years ago called Lan Jansen. Right. She'd just come out of film school.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

And now she's in charge of the SAFC. So ostensibly it's the same. Yeah. Your your mates are making stuff with you, yeah. And people that you know and your acquaintances as well. Yeah. Um they just might have a bit a bit of money and structure around them, but in essence, they're they're exactly the same. They've just they're just a bit bigger.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

Yeah. Well, and I think, yeah, this kind of sticking around for long enough and and you know just not going away. And people literally Seth Rogan, and he says, it's you know, there's people that quit and people that don't quit. And he said, If you if you don't quit, you might make it. If you quit, you definitely won't make it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:28

And that's great. That's like

Workshops, Curiosity, And Exposure Therapy

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

I think that struck a chord with me. I was like, oh yeah, like just keep sticking around and keep slugging it around.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

And and and I think don't fall into the the um the trap of feeling entitled. Like um just keep turning up if you've got a bit of hope. Yeah, take the small victories and go okay, we got that made. I saw this this thing um yesterday, and it was about this guy who went up this mountain in Bali and they had to climb it up, climb it overnight. You might have seen this on Facebook or something. I don't think so. Anyway, he climbed it over overnight, yeah. And and they got up there just as the sun came up over Bali and the Lombok Straits, and he's standing there looking at them, and in the distance he sees this other mountain above the clouds, yeah, over on Lombok, and he says to the guide, he says, What's that mountain? And the guy tells him, and um, he goes, How do we climb that? Yeah. And then the Balinese guy said to him, you know, you're you're you're standing on a mountain, yeah, and you're looking at the next mountain climb. Just enjoy the mountain that you're on. Yes. Be there going, there's a lot of stuff that you've achieved that you're not seeing because you're looking at the next thing. And it really resonated with me. Yeah, man. Going, actually, what have I done? Stop and smell the roses. Stop and smell the roses and just acknowledge that I've had a you know, I've had a good career and and you know, things might be quieter at the moment, but there'll be out of this moment something will grow.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

And when I'm in my most philosophical, I can I can get through that. But yeah, then you're dealing again with the old gray matter that's wanting to drag you down. And so, yeah, just stick around. Yeah. Um, and keep yourself healthy while you do. Totally. Yeah, that's great advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Well, stick around and stay healthy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

And stay healthy. And again, I'm only talking from experience because I I know the the traps. Yeah, cool, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

So what what's coming up? What's in the way? Are you doing uh something for theatre at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:30

Yeah, well, I'm doing um uh so the Ensemble Theatre in Sydney, which is um on the North Shore. Um, they're doing uh this play called 84 Charing Cross Road, which is where there was a film made of it. And I'm gonna be working with Georgie Parker, who I did All Saints with for four years. And it's a it's a beautiful sort of story that that is transatlantic, yeah, post-war, yeah, uh, second world war. And um yeah, so I got offered that and I just went, yeah, that's a really it's a really solid work. The people who are doing it are really good. Yeah. Um I kind of kept myself open for doing uh you know film and TV work, but there's nothing really happening. And so you just go, okay, what's what's on front on the table in front of me? That's that's the universe going, that's your next move, Eric. You need that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:23

And so um I've just decided to, and then I go on to a David, a new David Williamson up uh do the world premiere of that up on the in Noosa, the Noosa Live Festival. Yeah, nice. So and then another play after that, so 2026 is gonna be a year of theatre for me. Um and I've just gone, okay, that's what I need to do. It's just what I need to do. That's my that's my the foundation of my career. Yeah. Maybe at this point of my career I need to go back. Well, it's always gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

It's always gonna be there. AI is not gonna take that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

It's not gonna take that one. So um, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna um when you when you have a lot of time away from work, you start questioning your validity. Uh and go, uh, you know, who am I, what do I do? Yeah, yeah. Um, so to be given the opportunity to to remind myself of the craft. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

I think theatre is great like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

Theatre is is great like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:20

If you can come back to it at least every now and then and just have you know give yourself a bit more time with a project and and amongst the the cast. Um I mean, I've never done TV, I've never you know had the experience of like a long-running TV series like you have. Yeah, I can imagine it's a similar uh similar um camaraderie that you develop as as in theatre, but also you're learning from all these other actors that you're working with all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:47

Yeah, you're you're learning in the theatre too. You you've you know, we talk about often, you know. She goes, shut up. Honestly. Um, we talk about acting process and everything, and then you do an audition and you're just glad to get to the end of the audition without forgetting your lines. Yes, yeah, yeah. You're thinking about interpretation of the character and the way I'm gonna move, the physicality and all that kind of stuff. All these things that you when you do film and tele, you

Nerves, Presence, And Choice

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

don't really have a lot of time to think about that. Whereas when you do stage, yeah, you can really burrow into the whole um physicality, the voice. Yeah. Uh you can go back into backstory and you can really start to think about you know the use of props and all these fundamentals of acting. Yeah. And you have time to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Whereas you do TV, especially if you're a guestie or you come on and you're a you're a get you're just in a small role, you've got to hit the mark, you've got to get get it out, and you've got to go. Yeah. And you walk back and you go, all my years of studying Stanislavski hasn't helped at all. Yeah, yeah. You know, whereas when you do theatre, you get an opportunity to kind of really refine again, come back to the the basics and fundamentals. I know. This dog. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

I put her next door because I thought I thought then she'll be quite because she bark. If someone comes to the door, she'll go crazy. Is she? Well, she's usually in the house. Oh right, yeah. But I put her next door because I thought at least she won't bark, but she can probably hear your voice, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Maybe. Yeah. It's it's uh good. Will it get in the mic? I can hear it, yeah. Oh, you can hear it. But that's all right. It's okay. She's only just started doing it. Well, now we're talking about it, so we we we we understand.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Well, the the audience are part of this now. Yeah, they know. Yeah, yeah. Well, Luna's she wants to be part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Yeah, she's got things to say, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Yeah, yeah. My God.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:44

You better go and get her.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

We better we shall we wrap up. Yeah, let's wrap up. Um, what else? Um Kangaroo Island's out on Amazon Prime. And it is. Is it out in the cinemas soon?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

Oh, it's been Kangaroo Island's been.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Oh, is it done? It's done.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

We better cut that out. Well, it it's it's what should we say about it? So Kangaroo Island, it had a limited release. It did pretty well. It you know, it took half a million bucks at the box office, which is pretty good uh for a film that had very little promotional marketing budget, yeah. And and the word of mouth was fantastic. I just went across to New York at closed the um Charles B Film Festival and theater. I we uh all the cast were there, all the main cast.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

And we sat in a theater in New York with a bunch of New Yorkers who watched Kangaroo Island on Manhattan Island. Yeah. Uh from a little, you know, out there to that. Yeah, our island's a little bit different to yours. It's a little bit, you know, it's bigger. Uh Kangaroo Island's bigger than Manhattan Island. Yeah. It's only like 5,000 people on it as opposed to Manhattan with 30 million or whatever. Yeah, yeah. 15 million. But um, yeah, KI's uh available to rent, uh, but it's also gonna be out on a streamer soon. So um yeah, I think um that'll probably come out and hopefully it's gonna get a limited release in cinemas in the US. Oh, great, yeah, yeah. Nice. But it's a it's a difficult road. I mean, like a a low budget horror film you know can potentially take fifty million dollars at the box office because people love horror, it's a genre whereas a family kind of drama has a much smaller uh appeal. Um and uh, you know, as good as it is, it's just hard to to become conspicuous a bunch ab uh uh above all the other stuff that's out there. Yeah, yeah. But I'm really proud of it, and it's um you know, it's it's um everyone who's seen it has really loved it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

Yeah, it's a beautiful film, man. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad they're making I'm glad that they're giving SA a little bit of a boost, yeah. Shout outs, yeah. That's good. Well, thanks for coming, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

This is like such a such an honor and and so good on the case. I was watching the what you're doing, and I I like it's the you know the approach that you've got and sort of while I'm at while I'm in Adelaide. I may as well come in and um have a chat.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

It's so nice that you you reached out. I mean, I I I know you've been traveling around the place and and you've been in Hobart and New York and everything. So yeah, I'm really grateful that you know I think one of the first things you you did when you came back was hit me up, which is like pretty much very, very sweet of you. So thanks for thanks for taking the time coming to my little house. Easy, yeah, it's fun. You better go get your dog. I better get the dog. Mate, this is awesome. Thanks so much for coming, man. Man, what a cool guy. Eric, honestly, thank you so much for coming on, man. Um, thanks for the support and the honesty and the insights. I really am so grateful that you that you took the time, man. Guys, if you're in Sydney, please make sure that you get tickets to his show, 84Charing Crossing. That's the name of the show, it's not the address. It's at the Ensemble Theatre, which is opening on the 1st of May and running until the 13th of June. And hey, give him a follow on Instagram at Eric.thompson. That's Eric with a K. And don't you dare put a P in Thompson. And also while you have the app open, give the podcast a follow at go pluckyourself pod,

Rehearsal, Process, And Enriched Performance

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

and give me a follow at featuring underscore Chris underscore gun. And whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your preferred podcast platform, please make sure that you hit subscribe or follow. It's the easiest way to support the show. And hey, if you really want to support the show, you can do that by signing up to the Patreon at patreon.com slash gopluckyourself pod and contributing as little as five dollars a month towards the show. Guys, this thing is entirely listener funded by you. You're the listener. I'm not beholden to any advertisers yet. Um, this is completely independent. So if this podcast fires you up creatively, please do me a favor and type that link into your browser to become a patron. That's patreon.com slash go pluck yourself pod. Two things to remember with Patreon. Number one, if you're on an iPhone, don't use the Patreon app, as Apple will take 30% of your contribution just for using their app because they're greedy as fuck. Um but you can avoid that fee by simply signing up using a web browser like Chrome or Safari, which you can use on your phone. Just don't use the app. Number two, when you go into Patreon, click C Membership Options. Don't press join for free. Joining for free does absolutely nothing for you or for me. Um, so press C membership options if you'd like to contribute as little as $5 a month to help keep this show going. And by the way, thanks to everyone that's already signed up. I love you all very much. Alright, theme music by my amazing cousin Nick Gunn. Check out his work on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash Nick Gunn. He's a mad dog. Thanks for listening, guys. I'll see you next week. Maybe probably. Look after yourselves and each other. Be really, really, really, really nice to everyone. My name is Chris Gunn. And hey, go pluck yourself.