Books4Guys - Douglas Cole

Douglas Cole has published two novels and eight poetry collections, including The Cabin at the End of the World, winner of the Best Book Award in Urban Poetry and the International Impact Book Award. His first novel, The White Field, won the 2021 American Fiction Award, and his screenplay of The White Field won Best Unproduced Screenplay award in the Elegant Film Festival and was a finalist in the Indiefare International Film Festival and a quarterfinalist in both the New York Metropolitan Screenwriting Competition & Film Awards and the San Francisco International Screenwriting Competition & Film Awards.

His work has appeared in journals such as Beloit Poetry, Fiction International, Valpariaso, The Gallway Review and Two Hawks Quarterly; as well anthologies such as Bully Anthology (Hopewell), Coming Off The Line (Main Street Rag Publishing), the Bindweed Anthology, and Work (Unleash Press). He also contributes a column called “Trading Fours” to the magazine, Jerry Jazz Musician. https://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/?s=Trading+Fours

He has been awarded the Leslie Hunt Memorial prize in poetry, the Best of Poetry Award from Clapboard House, First Prize in the “Picture Worth 500 Words” from Tattoo Highway, and the Editors’ Choice Award in fiction by RiverSedge. He has been nominated eight times for a Pushcart and nine times for Best of the Net. He lives and teaches in Seattle, Washington.

https://douglastcole.com/

Latest book "The Invisible Hand" is out now. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Just cause I'm trying to take my wife. I want to go back out for a Seahawk game, but we'll see how that uh see how that goes. But uh Doug, man, it is good to to finally have you on the podcast. We've been connected for a little over a month now and uh trying to get this scheduled and and on the books. And so, man, it's so good to have you on here and and ready. Uh man, I'm excited to spotlight your work. I actually you've written a lot more than I thought you have.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Well, yeah, well, a little bit. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on the show and everything, too.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah. Well, no, I didn't realize just how many, how many awards you've gotten. I mean, you've written a lot of poetry, you've got your book out now. I mean, you you've kind of dabbled and and published a lot of different, a lot of different works. And man, I would love for you just to to kind of give an overview of just kind of what led you into your passion of writing just in general, and then kind of how that's, I don't know, just the journey you've been on in the last few years with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Well, right on. Well, the the writing, of course, is something I've always been involved in. I've been doing it since I was a kid. It's one of those things that I hooked into that I seem to enjoy that didn't seem to cause any damage to the world. I always loved it. I didn't really ever have a very big passion to publish, though. In fact, I was kind of comfortable just working on that art, sharing with friends, keeping it small, but always, you know, passionate about the the art and you know, reading and studying and trying to, you know, reach those heights of the beautiful accomplishments I'd seen other writers achieve in their writing. I just I was always sort of fascinating. I was talking to somebody the other day and I was trying to trace down what that what that little magic is. And I think it's it's that moment when you're reading and suddenly the world disappears and you go into the book. There's a a moment where you get literate yourself, right? You remember that? And it not just learn to read, but you get learn how to go into the movie theater of the book and stuff like that. And I think that feeling, that's something that the writer's chasing too, you know. But the challenge is to create it yourself and then believe it. Anyway, I also teach and the university well, college where I teach provides certain pay step increases if you publish, you know, certain amount of publishing can so the reality is I started publishing for money, but not the money that came from the publication. But what happened is that I ended up really enjoying it, and I I had very fortunate experiences. The first working with Diane Borsenick publishing uh Interstate, first chapbook of poetry. Actually before that, with a guy named David LeBounty publishing a chat book of my first novel. And working with the editors was a lot of fun. It was fun to kind of, you know, work with somebody else, and not in a grad school workshop way, but you know, another professional who this is their livelihood and and they're passionate about my work too. And so that sort of makes me rise up to the occasion and say, huh, I better show up and do a good job here. And I enjoyed that next process too, which was to work on a piece of literature, poetry or fiction to bring it into the world in a new way, in a way that really said, okay, I'm gonna make it public, which is kind of scary, right? Um, and so really I had pretty fortunate experiences with editors I've worked with along the way, and that's kind of kept me going to because they're serious about their work and they work with me in a way that I can understand, you know, is sympathetic and sees the vision I'm trying to create. That's a lot of fun. And and so I've kind of kept going back to it.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah. No, that's awesome. But actually, Doug, it's kind of funny you you mentioned you wanted to publish. Obviously, it's cool to get published, but like the the motivation of, hey, I want to get a pay increase. And I was actually literally, like two days ago, I was thinking of questions how I ask a lot of authors, and I'm like, I wonder if anyone will ever be honest with me and say, like, hey, I publish because I want to make more money. Because I see a lot of, you know, like people in the business space, everyone coaches them up, like, hey, if you want to take your your consulting business to the next level or you want to be more credible, you got to write a book. And then a lot of them say, like, hey, it's really not the book that makes you more money, it's the speaking engagements you get from it or the business you get from it. But no one's ever like specifically said, like, hey, I got a pay increase if I publish my work. And so I was like, when's someone gonna do that? And then you did. And I was like, perfect timing.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

But you know, the the funny part about it is that, you know, that motivation over here was it's complemented by the other, which is the joy of fun of working with somebody and creating the product of a book, a beautiful artwork. And then my approach then was always to, you know, be respectful and and work well with my editors and hope that that creates another opportunity to make another work of art.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

So yeah, yeah. No, and I want to talk about your book, The Invisible Hand. I mean, you've got the you've got it right there that you held up. Yeah. No, so I want you to dive into this more, Doug, because it's a story with three main characters, totally different stories of of what's going on, but give kind of a high-level overview of what your what you're trying to show. Because I I don't I know what you're trying to show, but like I want to hear it in your own words, because it is a unique book in the fact it's not it's not one that people probably read every day, this type of structure to it.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Working with a publisher on this book, I've of course been trying to think of ways to have a conversation about it like this with you and how to how to represent it, which I've found more difficult than my previous novel or even my poetry, because it it even though, you know, the invisible hand, the the title and a lot of the concepts of the book come out of this lexicon of economic terminology and ways of looking at the world, that sort of came along a little bit after a lot of the threads were already developing and weaving. So it was really three people's stories that kind of came bashing into my head to to be told. They weren't my stories. It was actually it's the first novel that I published, it's in the third person as opposed to the first person. And so there was a difference in voice, a difference in kind of way that the stories were showing up in my mind in this third person way, these three people, uh Sarah and and a Gabriel and a Jones, who were not like more specifically me, amplified in an I version of a fiction story. And so they were otherworldly, which was kind of interesting. It was it was a unique experience. And so I just let it happen, let these three stories continue to tell each other. I didn't even know that they were woven together at first, but as I kind of kept bouncing behind or back and forth between them, they continued to weave together. And the title of the Invisible Hand, this idea coming out of Adam Smith's economics, you know, the mystery. I like to represent that as Adam Smith sitting back, having finished his magnum opus, you know, wealth of nations, and feeling quite proud and smug that he had, you know, created a nice map of this social, economic, behavioral, you know, world we live in, but having that moment where he's like, oh dang, there's a missing piece. There's something I don't understand. And so I say it's a a moment of intellectual failure but poetic triumph to come up with that term, the invisible hand, because it's it's beautiful. And when you start playing around with it, it has some of those qualities of a really good symbol or metaphor, which is, you know, it can continue to generate ideas and thought even beyond any kind of definition you could create for it. It's just going to keep being mysterious. And I like that. So I liked that element that there's something mysterious going on in these people's lives and these people's stories coming together in the book. That's an invisible hand. I also liked the fact that, and I began to discover the fact that a lot of their lives were being impacted by forces they didn't understand, economic forces, social forces. And so I liked that. And so I then began to lean more into some of that language of the economics. And so I have at the back of it a little list of terms for the chapter titles that are coming out of economics. And I had fun then playing with those terms in chapter shaping and sort of developing each part and bouncing it back and forth between the idea of the title, like the Paris Club is one of them. And Paris Club is like this outside the typical financial institutional way, and people move money around. It's so as I was discovering more mystery, even in the economics world, that seemed to be a nice parallel to the mystery of these people's experiences. So that the invisible hand then becomes even a bigger model. It's it's me. I'm the invisible hand crafting their world, but there's an invisible hand behind me crafting my world, and I just like that exploration. So that's kind of where it all added up to me.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

I was actually thinking of your book this weekend. I just I don't know. I I love the word where you're using intellectual because it just does make you think. But I was actually watching the show Ozark. Yeah. And there was a moment there where Marty was talking about how every decision a human makes, there's this ripple effect of things that happen, or or someone else's previous decision, how that that ripple effect affect how that I don't know, changed your specific scenario and your next step and decision. So I kind of got deep into thought on that, on just, I don't know, again, the invisible hand and what has been created for me to be here right now, like what my next decision, how that impacts people around me and the world. I don't know. I just kind of went down a rabbit hole on thinking about all that. And it is interesting. You can you can sit there and think about this for a long time. But your book's really cool about doing that, is you there's you've got to really uh you brought it up in the first part of the episode here of just like getting when you're reading something and getting lost into the story and in almost like a movie and really getting your the wheels turning. Your book does that, but I was just again, I was watching a show Ozark, and then your book came to mind as I was just kind of having these certain thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

I appreciate that comparison. I've seen the show a couple a couple of the seasons. I don't know how many f it went to, but at least the first two. And I do appreciate that comparison. And and when I think about it, I think of the ways in which, yeah, people are making decisions and choices which are gonna radically change their lives and affect others. And I think there's an element of that in a lot of the people's stories in The Invisible Hand, too, where they are often at these moments of like the opening, Sarah, you know, she has provided testimony that puts her father in prison. What's her next move? Sets fire to the family house and gets on a bus. So yeah, I love that element of uh kind of uh ramifications of your decisions, but even you can't be sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess what I like about it is like you don't really know what the the next move is, and then when it happens, you don't know what the next move is or what's gonna happen. So there's just this constant like, what's going on? What's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

And I like the way I too I I like the movement, you know, their lives are changing. It's kind of it it may not seem fast paced on a series, but but yeah, scene by scene, things are radically changing.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah. Where do you, Doug, get your creativity from? Because you talked about like growing up, reading a lot, writing a lot. Like, did your parents encourage that? Like, did you your friends like how did you become because I was I always laugh because I I grew up and I had friends who they loved to read and I had friends who hated to read, and like how did you get influenced to to I guess pick up that hobby at the time? Um you know, an interest, and then yeah, yeah. I mean, where'd that come from?

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, it wasn't an automatic now. I early on I I didn't like reading either. I'd much rather watch a movie or TV, read a comic book. Comic books, though, that's really where I entered into the reading because, you know, you got the image and the words there, so it's kind of a faster narrative. Um but uh yeah, I reluctantly read early, early school days. And I think it was I often remember back to a middle school teacher of ours who gave us a book to read called Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbull. And it's the story of a World War I soldier who gets basically blown up. Arms and legs are blown off, his face, eyes, ears, he's deaf, he's blind, he's just lying in a hospital bed, nothing but a mind trapped in a body. He can't move, he can't hear, he can't speak. And towards the end, he discovers he can communicate with the nurses by tapping Morse code with his head. Sorry, but the the message he keeps sending them to is kill me. Anyway, but the the bulk of this story is a lot of his memory. And there was something about when I got into that book and reading it, I got lost. And it was that that's what I mean by that moment. And it was that moment that something kind of triggered. And I, of course, didn't but your interest was kind of born.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

You remember that book. And I'm glad you share that because that's kind of like the whole purpose behind Books for Guys, is to help specifically younger guys find that moment earlier in their life where they go, like, hey man, like reading is is great. Cause I always share my story as like a former athlete. I didn't have that moment until really I was late into college where I was just bored on a weekend and I picked up a book that my grandma gave me, and it was a sports book, but I read it in the in the in that short weekend, I was like, this is awesome. I like I love this book. Let me find another one like it. But then that expanded my just desire to read different things and about different people and different subjects. And then all of a sudden I was like, dang, I wish I'd have done this when I was younger. Like how much more I could have learned, or how, you know, how my path could have maybe was shaped a little bit different, you know, it's in a good way, just with thoughts and approaches to different things. And so I love that you share like your moment where you're like, oh, like, man, this was awesome. Like I got lost in this book and I'll never forget it.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Well, what what what was it about the reading for you that was unique or different from say watching a movie or listening to music?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, so great question, actually. So the book I read was actually about a football coach, Tony Dungey, and it was called Quiet Strength. And I kind of I guess at the time, you know, I I love football, still do, but it was cool learning his path of how he grew up, very close-knit family, how he got into coaching and his approach to leadership and and how to lead guys and stuff like that. And I guess just at that age, I was just curious on, you know, I've had I've been around different coaches and I knew what I liked and didn't like. And so I was just curious on his approach to certain guys and players. But then, you know, it kind of led me into wanting to learn more about leadership. So I'd read different books about different CEOs or whatnot. And then, you know, that kind of trickled into finance, and I got interested in like investing and money. And I was like, man, how can I make more money? Like, this is cool, you know. Like, so just different interests were peaked that I didn't really know I had. But it all kind of started from that one book, and I was like, dang, this is awesome! Like, this is really and then I started reading about people that I thought I may not like or I may not agree with, and I was just kind of like opening my world on purpose to challenge myself, and it felt good to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Were you aware? Because I wasn't at the time, but you were were you aware, or at what point maybe did you become aware that that by reading though, you were getting knowledge, you were getting information in a unique way as opposed to listening to a podcast or hearing up.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, I was definitely soaking it in at a deeper level where I was understanding it and actually, I guess, absorbing more than just sitting there and watching. Because like I'd watch a movie and be like, oh, that was good. You know, I remember this one part, da-da-da. But I guess like reading the story, I don't know. I just remember so much more about it because I took the time and I was reading word for word and engaged instead of just kind of like letting it come through my eyes. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, there I definitely it was different. I was I was taking in more of the information and actually like thinking about it more and more in depth. And again, I was it triggered something in me to to want to go, you know, get more information and learn more and and do more. So yeah, it was it that was my experience. I was like, holy cow, this was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

It it makes me think there's there's two two examples that seem to kind of clarify for me how that experience is meaningful. One is it it in in terms of knowledge seeking or information gathering, it's kind of like the uh the the 10 ox herding pictures from the Chinese, Japanese uh Buddhist tradition where you catch a little glimpse of something and then you just keep following it. You kind of discover more and and you kind of intuitively know to keep going. And the other is I think I've been thinking about this more recently too, that the reason why there is this close parallel between that moment of when you're reading and you you kind of dissolve into it and then writing and creating is I think they are both seated in something in the imagin the imagination. And I think when I'm reading, when we're reading the first time, when it starts to click online, become our own internal theater directors.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

So you're participating, but you don't know it. I don't know it. I don't think it. I just I'm reading and uh but my imagination is developing the scenery. I mean, I have words, but I could make it look any way I want, depending on the word too, right? Because I could say charity, and you might imagine the Homer 2000 or, you know, an Adirondack, whatever. And so there's all that freedom, even in your own imagination while reading to create the universe out of that score. And I think that something is interesting about imagination, imagining what's not there, imagining, you know, the future, imagining. So that little muscle, that little power, I think comes online.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah. Cause when you're watching something, you don't have to do any of the work. That's that's already been created. You're just absorbing. But when reading, you're creating that specific moment in your head where you're there again, creating the the the background, the voices, you know, and you're you're doing all of the work yourself. Yeah, 100%. I believe that. And I and I g I think too, is I like I read a book I was interested in. It wasn't one that I was told to read. And again, it those were good in a different way, but I wasn't I didn't put myself fully into the engagement mode. It was something I had to do. So when I actually grabbed a book that I was like, I want to read this, and then I enjoyed it, I was like, like I'm gonna read another book I'm interested in. So it just kind of clicked of me getting to do it on my own terms in a way. I got to choose what I wanted to learn about, and that kind of helped, I think, too. And that's kind of again kind of the goal with Books for Guys, is like I want young guys to pick what they're interested in. I don't really care what you pick. The goal is I hope it's your wills start turning and you're like, huh, like that was a great book. Let me read another one and just see what path it takes you down. Because for me, it took me down a bunch of different interests, and I'm glad it did. I don't know where I'd be without, you know, reading that first book that opened me up to this world of, I don't know, creativity in a way. I'm definitely not a writer. I haven't gotten that bug or been able to do that, but but the sense of learning and how my approach to, I don't know, just critical thinking. Um I've seen such a difference in in growth from that first book to now, and I'm so appreciative of it. And I love when other people start to experience that well as well. And I'm like, oh man, this is the good stuff here. You're really getting something from this.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

I wonder if, yeah, I think most of us, like like I'm hearing you describe, have that element too of like you critical thinking comes in. You have a a bit of an aha, a bit of an awakening. And I I think that's a powerful experience that you get in reading that's unique. I'm curious, because you when you started getting more involved in reading, did you have friends too that you talked about some of what you read or that you would share books with?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah. So at first it was few and far between. Yeah. There wasn't a whole lot of buddies to talk about certain books to, but I kind of saw the light bulb click in them as well. Like I did, I'd say, like, man, I just read this book. It was awesome. You should read it. And uh I had a couple friends who who did, or they were reading different books, but that circle's grown a lot over the last like five to ten years now. Now I have buddies that are like, dude, have you read this one? Like I just read it and it was like, my world's changed, you know. So I get a bunch of good recommendations, and more and more friends have realized just how important reading is and just kind of what they're learning. So it's really cool for me to see it's almost like I was first to a lot of my friends, and then to see them see that light bulb click, I'm like, oh man, this is awesome, you know, and that and now they are recommending things to me that can help me, you know, in different areas of life. And so uh yeah, so at first I didn't have a lot, but over the years, that that number's grown to where those conversations are had more often about books or, you know, hey, you know, if you're struggling at certain things, read this. Like this helped me a lot, or hey, your interest is here, like here, man, this is awesome. There's a leadership book I just read. It's different than the others, you know. So yeah, we bounce a lot more ideas off each other now. And Books for Guys obviously helps with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah. I'm curious. So chicken and egg situation, the reading then leads you to create a community of other readers, or your community, one reads, starts influencing others to read. Know what I mean? Because I remember um my buddy Eric Morrison, he he got all hipped on reading like Edgar Rice Burroughs books and the Conan books. I mean, we're like 14, 15. And so he started turning me onto those too. And then I got into that. And then my buddy Charlie Steele, he kind of came in when I got a little more interested in some literature. And I'm I don't know why. Somewhere along the path, though, I started going, I want a little more.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I want to read. The Steinbeck. I want to read the you know Tony Morrison. I want to read the hard stuff. I want to understand the good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I think I'm on, I'm like in that journey now. I find myself craving something that challenges me a little bit more. And I find myself, even in life, like some things I'm like, okay, this is so mundane and basic. I don't like it. I need something more to keep me challenged. And uh and it's it's literacy, it's style of writing, it's because even I, you know, in the last two or three years, that's kind of when I've started to pick up more fiction work too. And getting more into that, and man, there's so much benefit to getting lost in a fiction book. And there's so many different genres and twists. I mean, even yours, like the way it's written, it challenges you. And it you also gotta like give yourself to it. You can't just read it half-heartedly, like you've got to get into the book to understand like what's going on. It's a challenging, I mean it's not super challenging, but it does challenge you to get involved in the in the words. And so I I've definitely I think I'm in that journey now of where I'm wanting to challenge myself more and more with more difficult reading, I guess for lack of a better term of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've read a couple of recent reviews of of the book in which people said, I had a little trouble getting started at first because there's no quotation marks on the dialogue. And yet once I got reading it, it flowed. And that was actually a very intentional part of my work on this one was I wanted to strip down as much of the structure of the, you know, systems holding things in place, yeah, so that the language would mirror somewhat the world that it's representing. And so the challenge for me was how do I do that, but make it so it's still fun to read, so that once you kind of get, oh, okay, then you can just listen. So that's where the poetry, I think, is an important piece of the puzzle is that the language has to work. It's got for me, and you know, I'm not saying I've made it, but I'm that's what I'm trying to get to.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

So that you can, if you just listen, if all you're doing is listening and you take away your, you know, editor mind that says, wait a minute, there should be quotation marks here, let that quiet down. Just let the language happen. Then it's as clear as a bell. It's it's just you're in the universe. You're you're and that gives more room for the imagination in some ways, I think. Yeah. The reader's imagination.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah. Well, it sounds like this was uh a unique challenge for you as a writer and structuring this in a different way, which is also interesting because I guess my question to you is like, as you've over the years, you know, with different writings and poems and whatnot, do you find yourself, and you may have just answered this question, do you find yourself wanting to challenge yourself more and more in wanting to do some of these things that are a little bit different than the status quo as far as like structure goes?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I'm you know, I'm self-aware enough to to not want to just be difficult for difficult's sake, you know, just like if it's challenging to read, it's gonna be smarter. And um I'm not really sort of structurally oriented in the way like before I sit out, I'm making choices like I will do this, you know, using only Latin-based word or something like that. It's a little more intuitive as I get into it. And this is an interesting part of the process I've continued to try to refine and understand it, is it's it's active and critically aware and intentional as much as it's intuitive and listening and allowing things happen to happen in a language way. Does that make sense? So I and I resist kind of like the idea that that even the best of the writers that I love too could explain and understand every little thing about their work, right? There's I think a way in which the artist has to almost be reaching for something she or he doesn't even understand, but trust the effort, so that there's still a mystery to be discovered, even for the writer of the work. And I think that's a little bit of mess- not so that it's just random and haphazard, and I'll just throw anything on the page and it will somehow make meaning, but somehow in the refining of it, not trying to corral it or fuse it down too hard into something you can understand, but rather leave some room for the living language, the living environment of the artwork to to be reaching further. There's a you've heard of of Carl Jung, probably the psychiatrist, psychologist. And he said that the perfect symbol in art always, and I mentioned this a little earlier, exceeds the definitions we give it. And so that's part of, I think, for me in working on this is to not be too intentional or to watch my own intentions and not let them get in the way of the creative imagination process to Yeah Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah. No, I love that. No, I love that. No, I that's uh it makes sense to me. And uh, you know, I think this this is gonna kind of lead in my last question for you, Doug, because I I think we've done a really good job of talking about your book and I think encouraging uh people to pick it up, uh, if nothing else, to to kind of challenge themselves to to read something that may again push their boundaries a little bit um to see what they get from it. Um but you see this may be a difficult question for you because I and I ask I like I ask everyone who comes on the podcast this, but I see a lot of books behind you. Uh and I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has had a big impact on you uh personally or professionally. And uh if if someone like myself was like, hey Doug, um I need a new book recommendation, what's one that you would like to recommend right now?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Boy, all these books kept popping into my head, like you know, Tony Morrison's Blue Thighs, Melville's Moby Dick. But you know, uh the one that kind of my mind arrives at more is is uh a writer by the name of Leslie Marmon Silco, who wrote a book called Ceremonies. Uh Pueblo Laguna, identifies Pueblo Laguna, uh New Mexico area, uh be kind of uh territory of tribal communities. And um her book uh Ceremony, it's it's this beautiful layering of a contemporary story, traditional stories, and and a kind of another mystery element. And I've always loved the way in which kind of and and I suppose the reason that one comes to my mind now is that as I look at the invisible, it has in it a kind of similar concept, but the invisible hand for her is not so invisible. It's what Chininako, the the creative China god in the tradition that um she grew up in, who tells the stories. The universe, the world is all a product of storytelling. These these basically got and there's a beautiful writer by the name of Octavio Pause, um writer, poet and fiction writer from Mexico, and he's got a really cool short story called The Blue Bouquet, in which the character has this little revelation and and sort of looks at the universe, goes, Ah, the universe is just a conversation between giant beings, and I'm just a syllable, a pause, uh, you know, an expression in that dialogue. And I love that kind of it's sort of meta-fictional, but a little bit mystical. And yeah, Leslie Marmonsilko ceremony. That's that's one I'd recommend. And it's challenging too, but in a way that really um, I don't know, fuels your create your imagination as you're reading, as you're the theater designer, and also, like you said, kind of excites your curiosity to discover more and learn more about this other way of looking at the universe.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah, cool. Yeah, I I'll add that to my reading list. That'll be something that I can challenge myself with, and and maybe some others will as well. But Doug, man, this this has been fantastic. We've got your book on the Books for Guys website. So if anybody's interested, they can look at that and then obviously go purchase it. And uh can't wait to hear what people say. Is is again, I'm a fan. I can't wait to hear what other people say as well when they read it. But uh Doug, we appreciate it. This has been awesome.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I've had a good time. Thanks for having me on here, Chris. It's been fun to talk about it.