The 7 Primal Wounds Keeping You Stuck | Dr. Michaela Johnson on Human Behavior and Healing

Chris sits down with human behavior expert, therapist, pilot, speaker, podcast host, and author Dr. Michaela Johnson to discuss psychology, trauma, relationships, masculinity, personal growth, aviation, resilience, emotional patterns, and the inspiration behind her book Seven Primal Wounds: Break the Patterns Keeping You Stuck.

Dr. Michaela shares her fascinating journey growing up in a small town without electricity or running water, developing a deep curiosity about human behavior from an early age, and eventually building a career helping people better understand themselves, their relationships, and the subconscious patterns shaping their lives.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Michaela discusses:
 • The concept behind the “7 primal wounds”
 • How early emotional experiences shape adult behavior
 • Why people repeat unhealthy patterns and relationships
 • The importance of self awareness and emotional regulation
 • Masculinity, vulnerability, and identity in modern culture
 • The loneliness epidemic and loss of real community
 • Why social media creates surface level connection
 • The importance of “third places” and genuine relationships
 • Small habit changes that create long term transformation
 • How trauma responses can become superpowers when understood properly

Chris and Dr. Michaela also explore:
 • Why people struggle with instant gratification
 • The role curiosity plays in personal growth
 • Parenting, connection, and emotional resilience
 • Why men are increasingly searching for identity and purpose
 • The importance of community, friendship, and support systems
 • Flying airplanes and embracing adventure in life
 • The difference between existing and truly living

One of the most powerful moments of the conversation comes when Dr. Michaela explains that people are not “broken” — their minds and bodies are often doing exactly what they were designed to do: protect them. The real challenge is learning how to recognize those patterns and respond intentionally instead of automatically.

Books discussed during the episode include:
 • Seven Primal Wounds
 • Atomic Habits by James Clear
 • Predictably Irrational

https://7primalwounds.com/

If you are interested in psychology, personal growth, mindset, relationships, emotional intelligence, trauma, leadership, human behavior, masculinity, resilience, aviation, or learning how to break unhealthy patterns and create a more intentional life, this episode is packed with insight and perspective.

Subscribe to Books4Guys for conversations focused on books, leadership, mindset, wellness, entrepreneurship, psychology, storytelling, personal growth, and helping people become better readers, thinkers, leaders, and professionals. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Great state of California. That's awesome. But no, Dr. Michaela Johnson is joining the Books for Guys podcast today. And I am super pumped to talk to you. As when I was looking up your profile a while ago, we've been talking back and forth for a few weeks, getting this scheduled, but I was looking through your bio and human behavior expert and aviation pioneer. I basically stopped there and was like, good enough for me. That's what I'm interested in too. Let's reach out and see if I can get you on the podcast. And so I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Well, I'm really stoked to be here, Chris. And it's kind of fun to be on the other side of podcast land. You know, I'm usually the interviewer and not the interviewee. So this is kind of fun.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah. No, and I mean, you do all kinds of things. Obviously, your work as a doctor, you're flying planes all over the place, you host a podcast, you got a book out. And I just love seeing people who are just, I don't know, high achievers doing amazing things. Like I just love promoting that and sharing stories around, you know, individuals like yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

I remember at one point when I was young, you know, in high school like time frame, people would say, What do you want to be when you grow up? Like, what are you gonna do? And I was like, Why do I have to pick one thing? Like, I want to pick all the things, you know. And now that I've kind of picked all the things and done all the things, I'm like, I think I just want to sit on a beach and drink uh coconut water. That's good for me now.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, no, but even then, I'm sure like after a month of that, you'd be like, Okay, what else can I do now?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

To the grind.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. No, well, we've got your book, Seven Primal Wounds Break the Patterns Keeping You Stuck. We've got it posted on our website and uh very proud to share it. But Michaela, I would love for you, because again, we've we've talked about just all kinds of different things that you're doing, but I would love to know just as growing up, when did you realize like these interests of human behavior and and what makes people tick? And then also really the path that led you to writing your book and your mission behind it.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

So honestly, my mom said that I was always the kind of kid that was asking, but why? There it was really, no matter where we went, she said she was afraid if she saw my wheels turning that, you know, my mouth was gonna open and she was gonna have to defend like whatever it is that was coming out of it. And and it's true. From a very young age, I was always kind of looking at the world in a different way. And so there was a lot of times where I felt like maybe I didn't fit in in certain situations and stuff because the things that regular kids were talking about, I it didn't really interest me, you know. Like I remember being in high school and people were really into like the celebrities and, you know, the different magazines. And I was always like, but why does this happen and why does that happen? And so I was always kind of like this. I don't want to say outcast because it's very social and I had a very great social network, but I was definitely mentally outcasted in that way. And um, I grew up in a 27-foot fifth wheel with no running water and no electricity. So when you don't have all of this external stimulation, I think you really do kind of look at the world a little differently, you know. We didn't have television and those sorts of things. So I was always had my head in a book, or I was sitting out in nature, kind of just watching the way things were working or thinking about like very philosophical. So yeah, I I kind of blame my parents that, you know, because we had a porta potty instead of a regular toilet, I had a lot of time to uh to reflect on things like this.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

I feel like maybe more kids should have to go through that. You know, like everything's so easy and automated nowadays, it's almost like, hey, need to toughen these kids up a little bit, you know, and and go through that. Because I do think there's something to that. And you've probably studied that as like on your on yourself, like, hey, why am I the way I am? Why do I think the way I do? How is it that I can overcome challenges a certain way? And it probably does stem from you experiencing those kind of initial challenges as a kid. And then I I don't know, there's got to be something to that because I've heard similar stories, you know, as as people maybe either brought up a little bit differently or not as like privileged, and they're the ones that seem to succeed uh a lot of times, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, I've read a lot of Eastern, you know, books about these sorts of topics, and in particular like the Japanese culture and stuff. And there's just some fascinating theories about grit and resiliency and how we kind of tap into the present and the future and the past and how those dynamics are interwoven and how they play together. And, you know, my book, the Seven Premel Wounds book, is specifically about the early kind of hot stove moments, as I call them, that shape our decision making from a survivalistic mindset, but they become patterned responses. And when you identify these patterned responses, that's how you can really kind of embrace them as a superpower rather than a maladaptive response to your world. And so that's what the book's really all about.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

So, how did you that this is great? Because I love like learning about this stuff just personally, seeing people, trying to figure them out, and then like hearing stories and kind of like putting pieces together. I guess with your seven primal wounds, what are those exactly? And how do you coach people or or talk about how to use them as a superpower and how to overcome maybe some of those wounds that is affecting them as they get older?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

So, and it's interesting too that this is a podcast kind of focused towards men because what's what's very fascinating, and it might be just the pilot side of my life dynamic, but I have more men that are buying this book, more men that are reaching out to me to better understand their reactions than I do women right now. And that's not typically what I have seen in past years. So there's definitely a shift happening. And I don't know if it's like there's been a feminine rising for so long that's kind of squashed and and silenced the natural masculine nature of men that now men are kind of saying, Well, where is my place then? You know, you don't want me to show up like this and you don't want me to show up like that. So how am I supposed to show up in this game we're calling Earth School? You know? And I'm finding, you know, men want to be able to embrace their more feministic or maybe nurturing sides or or sensitive sides. And they also want to be allowed to be who they are, which is I'm the one that's gonna bang the hair, the bear over the head and save you when the bear is running after you. And I don't want to have to silence that part of me either. Like I feel like that's normal and natural. And so what's really interesting about what you're asking me is how do you how do you stop these patterns and respond in a way that's maybe a superpower rather than a maladaptive behavior? It's it's really about a thought-stopping process in the moment. And how I describe this is look, we can get burned by the stove when we're cooking, but it doesn't mean we have to stop cooking altogether, right? And and that's the pendulum shift. So right now we've tapped the pendulum to the other side and told people like, don't have any emotions. Like, we don't like that. Don't, don't respond, don't, don't be dramatic, don't be aggressive, don't be this, don't be that. And the reality is, so what that's done is we have an entire society of people that are microwaving hot pockets because they don't want to touch the stove at all, right? They're like, I'm just gonna tap out of the whole thing. So the book really says we can have these hot stove moments and we can learn how to work within that environment because the reality of it is it's there to protect you. So your response is defensive for a reason. It's because you've been hurt and you need to have some sort of mechanism to protect you in the future. And so this is about stopping in the moment and saying, okay, what do I need to do differently? Or do I need to show up to this situation at all? Maybe, maybe this is not the situation for me. Maybe this is not the environment for me. Maybe this isn't in alignment with my most high self, you know? And so it's not to try to shut it down. That would be bad. We don't want to do that because if you don't, you don't have a hand that pulls off of a hot stove, then you're going to have a whole lot more problems in life, right? So it's not to shut it down, it's to recognize in the moment what just happened, what was my contribution, what was my environment's contribution, and how can I show up differently if I need to. Maybe I need to continue to pull off this hot stove. Like maybe this is a very toxic relationship where I'm actually being emotionally abused and I don't need to show up to this stove anymore. Like I'm gonna pick a different kitchen. So that's really what it's about.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah. No, I love how you just went into a lot of detail there because I it's interesting. I've had a lot of conversation, especially recently, where men, it's almost like they're getting a little more permission to be vulnerable and talk about things. And I'd love to get your opinion too on just like, you know, there has been some confusion on like how should I act if I shouldn't be this way? But then you also want me to be that way in certain moments. How do you, I guess, recommend? We'll talk about guys for a second because we kind of got off on that topic a little bit. How do you recommend guys who don't, like maybe they don't know how to how to act in certain ways because they're confused? Do you recommend that they talk to a therapist or talk to someone to kind of help get guidance on that? Because I love what you're saying as like in certain moments, pause, think about it, decipher it a little bit and figure it out. But like, what if on your own you're still not sure if that's the right thing to do?

SPEAKER_02 9:59

So, what I'm seeing in general is men are having a provider identity crisis, right? Like that's that's really what I'm seeing. If I had to give it a like coin a term, and most men that are approaching me are saying, like, this is what I'm experiencing. Am I irrational? Am I rational? Am I wrong to have these feelings? And so, from that perspective, to answer your question directly, I think that it is safe for men to find a safe place where they can navigate those questions without having to feel the judgment part of things. Now, finding the person who's safe enough to do that, is that a therapist? Is that a men's group? Is that, you know, the guy that you kick the soccer ball with? Who, who is that person is really what I think everybody has to look at independently. So, for example, a lot of the guys that I'm working with in this situation are pilots and they don't feel safe going to a therapist because they'll be grounded. They can't fly and they're very nervous about that. So that may not be the safest choice for them unless they find the right kind of provider who's not going to put a label that's going to cause them to get grounded, right? So I wouldn't blanket statements say, oh yeah, therapy is indicated for everyone. But I think that we used to have something called a third place, and you might have heard about this, but it was the coffee shop or the airport hangar or the whatever. There was home, there was work, and then there was the third place. And I think we've systematically removed that from our dynamic for both men and women. And when we removed the biddies at the hair salon, you know, gossiping about whatever, we've essentially removed this like this finger from our identity that allowed us to have a pulse on something else. And so for me, I think however men create that third place where they can feel safe to kind of vent and be and bitch and gripe or whatever is healthy. If that's a group text message that you've got with your buddies or whatever, I think that's great.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

I'm so glad you just brought that up because I didn't know it was called the third place, but I was thinking of that as you were describing that. And I was thinking just like how important it is. And I'm thinking of my life personally, like having groups of guy friends. And we, when we we're all in different cities, but we we get together at least once or twice a year, and it's cigars, it's bourbon, it's golf. But the things we talk about are things we can bounce problems off of and we can lean on each other, and we're really like we're such a tight-knit group. No one's really afraid to say anything, no one's afraid to ask certain questions. You know, we poke fun, but we're very serious and care for each other. And it does seem like, and maybe I'm sure COVID played a part in that, social media, like it seems like there's less and less of those real tight-knit groups of friends between both men and women, uh, you know, like happy hour after work with group of friends. Like, it just seems like that has been dwindling, and I can see where the lack of that can lead to a lot of problems. And so, as you were talking about that, I was like, yeah, everyone, and I'm thinking of group techs. Like, I have so much fun catching up with friends through that and talking about different things. And just like, if I didn't have that, I would be really, really struggling, I think, because I already work remote and I like I'm like, oh, I wish I was with people a little bit more, but at least having those outlets probably keeps me a little sane more than if I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

You've created that sense of community and that third place in your dynamic and in your way. And I think a lot of people have traded this like idea of connection via social media and or whatever app for you know, this like surface level connection or community for what used to be a lot deeper. Even if you look at drive down any suburbia in America and look at all the fences between all of the homes, you know what I mean? We when I was a kid, we were out kicking the soccer ball in the middle of the street and playing tetherball and basketball, and our parents were all in the front yard drinking their beer, you know, like and that's how it was. And now we've put up these fences and all these like, you know, signs like don't, don't the kids can't play here and all those kinds of things. And so we've kind of intentionally, as a society, created an environment of loneliness. Like, and and you can be in a family of five and be come incredibly lonely. And I see that a lot. And I think that's where the attachment stuff has just kind of become systemic or generational. And we've really like learned how to detach from each other. And and I think that it's going to be a relearning process on on how to really reconnect.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah. And that kind of leads it to my next question for you on just like, cause I'm thinking about it, it takes a lot of intentionality to I'm thinking like, and I'm still I'm I think I'm very blessed because like my neighbors in front and back, like we've done dinner, we do sit in the driveway. But I used to live in an apartment in Atlanta and I didn't know anyone around me. And we were like all intentional about not speaking to each other. Yeah, yeah. Don't I don't see you. Sorry. Um, but now it is like so refreshing to walk out and our dogs are playing, we're waving, and it just creates this like community, especially like if something goes bad, like you have people you can lean on to help you. So there's all these benefits to it. But how do we, I guess, in your opinion, transition to try and like flip the or the pendulum? How do we get it to swing the other way to be more intentional about getting together with friends and family and putting the technology down to help kind of fix some of these issues that you're seeing and trying to coach people through?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

So, one of the things that I like to really that I'll insert here is, you know, when people would come to me for therapy, it's like, I want to, I want the pendulum to swing the other way tomorrow. Like I need that to happen now, right? And you've created years of dynamic and pattern building to get to where you are. And so I really look at it like a dashboard. And we just want to move the needle a little bit because moving the needle a little bit is sustainable. You know what I mean? Where if we're trying to swing the pendulum the other way overnight, you'll do that successfully for about five minutes. And then you're gonna be right back to the patterns because the patterns are too safe. Even when they're not beneficial, they're safe, which is kind of paradoxical. And this is why we end up in the same kind of relationships, even when they're not beneficial or they're toxic, because it's safe. It's emotionally what we know. So we paradoxically will choose it time and time again. So anytime that we're trying to make shifts in our life, we have to look at it as a needle that we're just slow, this is a slow burn, right? Like we're we're we've got a cold teapot of water and we're just trying to bring it to a rolling boil, but slowly, like one temperature stroke at a time. So I think it's important that when we're looking at how to replace these things, we start really small. And so for parents, one thing that I recommend is pick your kid up from school or the bus stop or whatever it is, take them to the local boba shop, buy a buy a boba tea. That's it. Start with that. And then pretty soon that Wednesday that you pick your kid up, that they've come to kind of recognize like, oh, dad picks me up or mom picks me up on Wednesday and takes me to Boba, is suddenly like, hey, do you want to hang out and visit for a little bit? Yeah, let's let's sit over here. And then we're just waiting for our to-go order. And then suddenly we're now sipping our tea while we're visiting. And at first we're on our phones, right? Because we don't really know how to talk to one another. So we're sitting at the boba drinking the tea and we're each doing our own thing. And then pretty soon it's like, well, what are you looking at? Oh, I'm checking out these cats on YouTube. They're so funny. Oh, really? Yeah, I followed this certain count, and now we're engaging in dialogue. And then pretty soon two months have gone by of Wednesdays, and now we're having an hour-long conversation, sipping our tea with our kid, and we've made that change. And it was moving the needle a temperature stroke at a time.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Love that. Love that. Because I'm thinking of it too. Just like there's so many aspects of life like that, if you know, people trying to lose weight. Like we're so conditioned now to like want things instantly, but time goes by so fast. And if you just keep chipping away a little bit day by day, very quickly, you're looking back three months from now, six months from now, a year from now, and then you're so happy you made the change. But it just it's hard for people to see it in the moment, and it takes that time. And I know that's it's it's easy to talk about, it's very hard to implement. And I know it's hard for people to do what you're saying needs to be done, and that's in anything.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, to stick with it. You know, I I got a shoulder tear from a car accident in September. And when I went to the PT, I literally couldn't lift two pounds with my with my arm. Like it was bad, you know. I I couldn't put on my bra without immense pain. Like I could not do this movement. And uh, and I was like, I'm never gonna be able to do it again. Like, I'm never gonna wash my hair without pain again, you know. And they're like, trust the process, like you're gonna be fine, you know. And here I am now, I'm like, I'm cranking 20 pounds, I'm putting on my bra strap, I'm washing my hair. Like, you know, but it took the commitment and it took the action. And you can't you can't expect to see change without both pieces. And I think this instant gratification world will will go for one or the other, but not both.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, yeah. No, and then people gotta be willing to to find that process and stick to it. And I and again, that's that's the hard part. You we reach it. We we know what to do, we know what it's gonna take. It's just getting your mindset right to enjoy the journey and trust the process and not so much look at the end goal as much. It'll come in due time. Um, so I love that you broke it down that way. Michaela, your book, as people read it, if they don't take anything else away from it, but one nugget to improve on what their current situation is or what they're going through, what do you hope that one message or that one nugget is, if nothing else?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

You're not broken. Your body is doing exactly what it was intended to do, which is to protect you. And once you recognize that you're not broken at all, you're actually working very efficiently, you can kind of learn how to tone it down a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

That's good. That's good. I I love sharing that too. Everyone's got a purpose, everyone's got a story, not broken. You can figure it out. Sometimes things are harder than others, but you can do it and get to where you want. So I love that you share that. Couple fun questions for you, Michaela, as we kind of lead to the end. But I want to talk about your aviation background a little bit too, because it's super interesting. I haven't talked to anyone that's like doctor, flying planes, doing all this stuff. Like, where did where did that interest originate from?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So when I grew up in that small town with no running water and no electricity, the one thing that my parents could afford to do, specifically my dad could afford to do, was take us up to the airport on the weekends. It was a small little airport, and we would sit and watch the airplanes. And eventually my dad got connected to the pilots there. And eventually my dad started working on his pilot's license, and we started getting involved in these like nonprofit groups that were at the airport, like the Young Eagles program and things like that. And I went up in my very first small airplane ride was in a Christian Eagle, which is kind of an aerobatic airplane. And I got to do all of these really cool like maneuvers in the air. And I remember when I first took off out of this tiny little airport in this sheltered little community, thinking, oh my gosh, there's this entire world and I need to see it. And so my aviation journey really kind of started that way with just being inspired by the gift and glory of all that is aviation. And once it's in your blood, it never is out of your blood. It's just all you will look up at the sky from that day forward. Every time you hear an airplane, you know, all the things. So for me, it was it was kind of just a young hot stove moment, really.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah. I love, I love hearing your like personal curiosity story because I've been having this conversation with my wife and friends lately about like. Simply existing versus living. And you are truly one that is living. And that takes intentionality too. You know, not just going through the daily checklist, but pushing yourself to go do things and experience things because life again is so short and there's so much to do. So I love just your view of it all of there's a big world. I gotta go experience it. Like so much to do, so little time, you know, let's move.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

I definitely have my moments where I get afraid and I have to remind myself, like, and I and mostly it's being a mom, right? Like I'm afraid to leave my son too young or something like that. But but I have to remind myself that by living my fullest expression of the potential that I have, I'm also showing him how to embrace life. And that's there's power in and of that. I think when we build in safety when we're doing something that's inherently risky, it makes it a little bit easier to stomach the stuff that's a little scary. But I also have heard so many people in my therapy sessions that have a terminal illness and they're saying, like, if I had it to do over, right? Like I never wanted to regret it in a way woulda, shoulda, coulda on the do-over part of things. And so when it comes down to is it a go or a no-go for me, I really think about the people that have been on their deathbed quite literally that have wished that they'd chosen to go and not no-go, you know?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah. No, I try to be the same way. Like, hey, I've I've got the time, I've got the physical ability, like go do as much as possible while I can.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

And uh I try to be an example to others in that way. And uh no, I love that. Just uh a couple other questions for you, Michaela. As so many people look to you as maybe a mentor or for someone to help them, I'm curious to know just in your life, who have been some of your mentors and who do you lean on just in in your personal or professional, you know, task.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah, it's funny because I would say, like, if you're if you're leaning on me, probably don't, because we're probably both gonna fall over. Like, I definitely do not claim to have it figured out. Like, even like one of the first things I'll tell people when they come to my counseling is like, hey, this is called a practice and not a perfect for a reason. We're kind of doing this together. Like, that's my disclaimer, right? And I'm also quick to acknowledge when I maybe haven't shown up as gracefully as I could have. But as far as mentors in my life, um it's interesting because I've just been blessed with having two ears to listen that have embraced listening to what others have had to say. And so the list is quite long. But I remember in particular, I had one, I I've had a lot of really great bosses over the years. Um, but I had one who said to me something to the effect of this is just a line item on your resume. And I want you to remember that when you're choosing the things you're choosing around you. Like this is a line item on your resume. You're gonna have a whole lot of line items on your resume. And when I when I kind of I work well with visuals, and so I could literally see a resume, like a piece of paper, and I could see it being like one line item. And do you wanna go through life with just one? Or do you want to have a whole lot of things on your resume of life, you know? And I embraced that. And it's funny, I still talk to him and his resume's impressive, you know, scuba diving and the maldives and all sorts of things that he's done. And so it's like look at life as a resume, and and you want to have a whole lot of things on it because ultimately that becomes your tombstone.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Yeah. Oh, I like that. I think that's something I'm gonna use now that you've described it that way is how long is my resume? Is it a one pager or can we can we make it a five pager? And I'm in the recruiting space, so typically I'm usually telling people to shorten that thing down.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, get it down to a paragraph. Like we don't need to have 22 pages right.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

In this case, I need it to be a book, you know. Let's write this thing out. But yeah, no, that's amazing. Michaela, last question for you, and this is just really a specific, like books for guys type of question, just because of what we're we're putting out there. It's amazing that you've gotten your book. And I'm curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book you like to recommend to other people?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Oh gosh. I mean, I've I've got like 683 nonfictions on my list right now. I I actually think I might be a 684. Um, but but here's what I'll say uh hands down, Atomic Habits, James Clare. Oh, yeah. One of the best books of all time ever. The next one, uh, if you want to be spiritual, you are here, Tishnaut Han. Um, and there's a whole lot that will come up on that stack if you look up that one, right? And probably most things underneath there. Um Tishnaut Han, Buddhist monk. I believe he's Thai, but there's also a Japanese author that's written a similar book in similar context. I'm forgetting the name of it now, The Art of Something. I'll find it. But anyway, that would be number two, would be You Are Here, Tishnat Han, and anything that comes up in that search history. And then the last one is predictably irrational. That book will show you so much about the decisions you make that make no sense at all. And you will never look at the grocery store the same. So that those those are my tips. I've got the business guy will like predictably irrational, the spiritual guy is gonna love it, you are here, and the every other guy is gonna love atomic habits by James Clare.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah. Good, good recommendations, especially that last one. I think that's one I'd be really interested in reading.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Dude, you gotta read it. Like it is so good. Um, yeah, it just really exposes why we make decisions and how much it's socially driven by other people around us. Yeah, and yeah, and the logic or lack of that goes into certain things. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's that's something I want to read like right now when we get done with this, just because you've already got my curiosity piqued. Um, but no, Michaela, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. This has been so much fun. I love your energy. I love the work you're doing. I love your outlook on life. I love your passion to help others and then just putting your mission and story out there. And now that we've met, it's gonna be super cool to follow you and just continue to see all the amazing things that you continue to accomplish and put out there for the world to see. And so again, thank you for taking the time to do this, and we're proud to spotlight your book.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Well, thank you so much, Chris. And I do have a special promo code that I'll coordinate with you at the end. So if people want to get the book with a little bit of a discount for listening to this podcast, I've got that too.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Amazing. And we'll make sure it's in the note the episode notes. So, Dr. Michaela Johnson, thank you so much.