Escaping the System: Zoey Michaels on Creativity, Technology, Freedom, and Writing Dystopian Fiction

What happens when society values conformity over curiosity, and technology slowly replaces independent thought?

In this episode of Books4Guys, Chris sits down with author Zoey Michaels to discuss creativity, dystopian fiction, technology, imagination, personal freedom, and the inspiration behind her novels The Echoed Mind and Fractured Shadows. Zoey shares how everyday observations—from conversations at work to frustrations with modern routines—sparked the idea for a futuristic world where people are assigned predetermined paths in life, challenging readers to consider the balance between stability, freedom, and individual purpose. 

Throughout the conversation, Zoey discusses her creative writing process, building fictional worlds, developing compelling characters, and why she intentionally blends entertaining storytelling with deeper questions about technology, communication, and human connection. Chris and Zoey also explore how modern society often encourages people to follow predictable career paths, the growing impact of artificial intelligence and digital devices, and why genuine face-to-face relationships may be more valuable today than ever before. 

The discussion also covers reading, imagination, self-publishing, the challenges of balancing a full-time career while writing novels, and why fiction remains one of the most powerful ways to exercise creativity and critical thinking. Whether you're a fan of dystopian fiction, speculative science fiction, or simply enjoy stories that make you question the world around you, this episode offers an engaging conversation about creativity, curiosity, and the courage to think differently. 

Key Discussion Topics

•  The inspiration behind The Echoed Mind and Fractured Shadows
•  Balancing stability, freedom, and personal purpose 
•  Building dystopian worlds that reflect modern society 
•  Technology, AI, and the importance of human connection 
•  Creativity and the process of writing fiction 
•  Balancing a full-time career while becoming a published author 
•  Why fiction strengthens imagination and critical thinking 
•  The value of disconnecting from technology and reconnecting with people 
•  Future writing projects, including Zara's Chocolate
•  Book recommendations including The Count of Monte Cristo

Executive Development Partner: https://www.standardpursuit.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Before we jump into today's episode, I want to thank our executive development partner, Standard Pursuit. Founded by Hunter Didrickson, Standard Pursuit is a coaching community built for founders, entrepreneurs, and high performers who are ready to step into the next version of themselves. Through one-on-one coaching and the Standard Training Club, Hunter helps people strengthen both their physical and mental operating systems so they can think more clearly, lead more effectively, and perform at a higher level. One of the things I appreciate most about what Hunter is building is that he understands success isn't just about business. It's about health, mindset, discipline, leadership, and becoming the type of person capable of achieving the goals you set for yourself. If you're looking to sharpen your performance, improve your habits, and operate at a higher level both personally and professionally, I encourage you to check out StandardPursuit at standardpursuit.com. Now let's get to today's episode. You are officially the first Cincinnatian on the Books for Guys podcast. So let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Sounds good. Well, full disclosure, I'm not originally from Cincinnati. It's just kind of where I've been since about the middle of COVID.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah. No, all good, all good. Well, Zoe, I'm super excited to talk with you today and been excited about this as you've got a two-part series out that I got introduced to you through and uh very intriguing as I was learning a little bit about you and just your your passion behind being creative, uh, mixing things together and uh just putting putting this story out there. And it's one that I think a lot of people uh will find intriguing. Um it for and I've got them pulled up here. I want to make sure Fractured Shadows and The Echoed Mind. And I really enjoyed uh there was a part I re-read that caught my attention, and it was uh the tension between stability and freedom. That phrase right there is what uh I grasped onto and it explained perfectly what I was feeling as I was just reading the description of your books, and I was like, ooh, there's a little uh back and forth pull here on what a lot of people actually experience this in everyday life. And uh so, Zoe, I'd love for you to take over for a second. I don't want to give too much away on your books, but totally fine.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

You know, it's funny because it really is everyday life that affects the ideas that come to our head. And, you know, I had several ideas that gelled together to come up with the echoed mind. I have long bemoaned the fact that, you know, people may c graduate, you know, their school, high school, college, whatever. And even though they might be looking to be in a certain field, they may end up just, you know, you sort of you need to have work, you need to have something to put a roof over your fed over your head, and it may not be the thing you hoped for, but that goes on your resume. And when you submit your resume for other jobs, it always goes back to, well, this is what you've been doing. And you kind of get pigeonholed into something that really isn't your interest, but it puts food on the table. And so that and some other thoughts, you know, just in the normal workday work world and what's expect expected of a person, led to the thoughts that led to the echoed mind.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah. No, and that's interesting because I'm in the recruiting space. So there was something that I was thinking about. I was like, I look at resumes every day, and the amount of times I hear people that are not really interested in what they do, but they're nervous to make a change because they're scared no one's gonna give them a chance. And so then they just go down this 5, 10, 15, 30-year career path of doing something they don't really enjoy. Um, it's kind of mind-blowing. Like the amount, the percentage of the population that actually that's the route that you get put into. And that's exactly what I was thinking about when I was looking at your books. I was like, this is interesting. Like there, and you go a little bit deeper into like the story to where it's like a very entertaining, where it's a it's a big deal. Society's put into this situation where everybody's it's an ideal role for you, but there's a larger, larger play at scale, which you can kind of see in everyday life too. You know, the the elite people and leadership, they can they can pull strings and and then the population as a whole can kind of go with it and not really realize what's going on. And so I just how did you I don't know, what what's it like putting this together? Because I'm not a very creative person. I I I like talking to people who are creative because it just opens my mind up more to think differently and to see things differently. But as you're having these thoughts and ideas, you know, at your normal job, what's the process like for you to complete a story like this, pen to paper, get it out, but just just what's your process?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

So, you know, everything begins with the idea, whether it's a conversation that may be meaningless to someone else, but then, you know, start stirring ideas in your head could be a moment of frustration. For me, for this story, it was a moment of frustration. Um, I was sitting on the phone because my job involves being on the phone all day, but I also used to be in the recruiting space once upon a time. So that's where that portion of that came from. But in my world, because people have to provide their name and their address and whatever when they're talking to me, nine out of ten people spell their name uninvited. I do not ask for them to do it, but they automatically spell. I once had a lady spell Disney to me. I'm like, that was like the most famous name on the planet. D do I really need to hear you spell Disney?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Got that.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

So I was deeply frustrated during that time period. And I got to thinking about this futuristic world where you know, people don't really use they don't use their minds because they're trained not to use their minds. They're trained to depend on this is the technical process and this is what you do, and you know, you don't really go outside of this lane. And so in my mind building this world, and I didn't follow through on it, I might do it with with the next one, but there's a neighborhood uh that I deemed the spellers. You know, they spell key words that they feel are very, you know, meaningful and mean nothing to no one, but because of that moment of frustration. Um, but that's what led to the idea of okay, here's this world where people aren't really using they're they're just you know doing what they're told. And then here's this protagonist, uh, Rowan. And in my mind, I'm picturing a relationship because I wanted to do something that was Generation X and um and I was it Generation Z? Yeah, I think it's Generation Z. I I lose track of no millennials. It's the millennials. Um too many generations, too short together. But I was picturing in my head my favorite uncle and myself. So in in my mind, I'm Lyra in this book and I'm with Uncle Rowan, except that Rowan is not my uncle's name. But so I was trying to picture okay, here's this world, Lyra's deep in, she knows what's going on because she's been in trouble a few times, but it's clued or in the hey, there's something more here than meets the eye. Uncle Rowan, he doesn't really know a whole lot of what's going on, but he's deeply concerned about you know, Lyra. And so he gets pulled into this world that he never planned to be in, but it w reawakens some joy in his life that he had previously forgotten because of this world. And that's kind of what leads you into the whole story. But but that's kind of was where I was building from like, okay, how do I do this? And what about like who's gonna be at chasing them? Because you have to have some adventure, right? You gotta have a bad guy, or better yet, a bad guy behind a bad guy.

unknown 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I love that. Did you always intend for this to be a series, or did that come through just as you were working on the first book and you just were like, hey, this has got to keep going? What did you what was your plan there?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

I knew from the outset I wanted it to be a series. I was like, do I make it a a a, you know, oh good, a trilogy, or do I make it just a two-book series? And I fought myself on it, and I eventually decided a two-part series. But inadvertently, I'm gonna end up with three parts anyway, because I went back because I wasn't getting I wasn't getting the response for the echoed mind that I was hoping for. I thought, well, maybe if I wrote wrote a short little prequel that kind of led to like, how did we get to this world? So it's gonna be a three-part series just by default.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah. No, and that's fascinating. Because again, I I I'm always curious to know just what it's like. Obviously, you start with an idea and and and you're building this world out, you're building characters, you're thinking through it, and and I'm always curious too, I always love, you know, as you're writing a s a book, things in your life or things in that's going on in the world could potentially affect the way you think about something today versus yesterday. And so I'm always curious of just like, what were the influences? Were there things that happened that by the end of the book you were kind of changing some things up, or did it go according to plan with, you know, based on the original outline? And it, but again, it le it leaves so much room for creativity, especially with a fiction book, that you can kind of let your mind wander and you can go in so many directions. And uh it just sounds like that's kind of what happened with you. You're just like, huh.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

That's what I love about the fictional world. Now, I love reading historical fiction and things like that, but you're you're locked into this is what actually happened in history, and there's only so much room for play. But if I write about the future, hasn't happened yet. I've got all kinds of room to play. Um so and even like with the echoed mind, I knew at the end I wanted to have some kind of cliffhanger. And there goes, there we go. I thought our I thought Riverside was gonna play a game with us for a moment there. Um so I I knew I wanted to have a cliffhanger. But even since I ended that book and went back to do Fractured Shadows and have been talking to various podcasts, that cliffhanger, how it's gonna build in the next book actually has changed. And part of that has been in talking with even more experienced writers and some of the input they've given. And I thought, ooh, I could really just take people from this direction to suddenly go, guess what? We're going over this way. And I love the ideas I've come up with as I've been talking to people that, ooh, I can really do uh I could play with people's minds here.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah. No, and that's gotta be so fun as a writer, and being able to think of a cliffhanger and know and and and wait to see what the reaction is. And I'm sure sometimes it's probably fun to see reactions that maybe you don't even expect. You think some a reader is going to think this way, but maybe they have a different thought of the outcome or what you're trying to put there. And I think that's got to be fun too, is you let the reader get creative with what they're reading, because it's uh I love fiction because I could read something and someone else could read the same thing, and we both kind of look at it differently based on the world we're creating in our own mind or the situation. And so it's uh it's so important. Fiction writing and reading, uh, I've learned I've read so many statistics on it on just how good it is, especially for young minds, for critical thinking and imagination, and and it I mean, even to lead into doing things like engineering and math. Like it, it's hard to explain what you would think if someone just looked at that stuff all the time, it'd be better. But really, the creativity piece, activating your brain to think about things, yeah. I've just I've learned recently how important that is. And so I've really been encouraging more people to pick up fiction books, even over nonfiction, because of the importance of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Exactly. I mean, ideally if you can do a little bit of both, because I mean, but you know, here's the thing. Even though a book may be fiction, I have read some fiction books that when I went back and read them like the actual history, spot on. I mean, they that the authors did their homework. So they can still be educational, but exercise the imagination. And to me, that's like the best of all possible worlds.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. What are some things, Zoe, when people read your book series? Um, obviously you want them to enjoy and be entertained, but are there some underlying lessons that you hope people see through the story or through characters that they pick up on that, you know, you just hope they again we talk about stability versus freedom. Are you wanting people to get that edge to be a little more risk-adversed or risk-taking so that they can live life to the fullest? You know, like what are some things in your book that you really hope people grab as they read it?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I think if there's one specific message that I would like to come across in these two books, it would be to disconnect a little bit from the technology. Now, don't get me wrong, I I love the usefulness of technology. Love my computer, love having access to a cell phone. I know there's a lot of mixed feelings about chat GPT, but you know what? It has its uses. Um, so I I love technology. However, and I was commenting about this with someone earlier today. Despite all these methods of communication that we have today, we I think are probably the most disconnected, least communicative people in history. Because a lot gets lost if you don't have the interpersonal interaction. That's what I would like to come across.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

I like that message because I actually read something earlier today too, where there's a there's a big investment guy follow. He's not a big investment, he's like a speaker, leader, investor, whatever, but he was talking about how he thinks there's gonna be this big like analog push where people like we're so ingrained in technology, and it seems like a lot of people want to take a break from it. You're kind of forced to use it at this point because it just is what it is. You you need to use AI, you need to be connected, like all this stuff to be successful, really, in any career, you've got to use it. But he was like, you know, I think drive-in movie theaters are gonna become popular again, or like common spaces where, you know, like mall slash, you know, activities because people are kind of craving that interaction. And and I think people notice what you just said. We we're less communicative, it's a little awkward, it's getting tougher to talk, and but I think people are like, this isn't good. We need to figure out more ways to be around each other, a community, you know, be nice, hang out. Because when you do that stuff, it's so fulfilling. And uh and it so I was just interesting his take on it. He was like, Yeah, I think we're gonna see this shift where more of these things that were like fun in the 70s, 80s, 90s maybe make a comeback because people are kind of craving that type of world. So we'll have both where we've got the the technology and the AI, but we'll maybe hopefully have some things that come back around that were really good from a community standpoint, um, which would, you know, lead to to being able to put the technology down for a little while and recharge. So I think it's a really cool message that you hope people take away from it because it's certainly something I'm seeking. And uh so to read that and kind of pick up on that would be be something refreshing, a part of the story too, I think.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Absolutely. And I really agree. I mean, I think there's a lot of really lonely people in the world, and it's because of the technology, because they're not out interacting in person with other people, you know. So And I'm also thinking of the generations that really weren't taught to use devices, but even in using the devices, you know, but there's people out there who are so easily able to hide who they are. It's better enough the people you meet in the real world who have that ability, but then online makes it even easier for those with bad intentions. So just to be able to be out with your neighbors and feel safe and heard and just yeah, we need this.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Absolutely. Have you always been uh a writer at heart? Like, did you grow up writing stories and and reading a lot, or just what was your personal journey through reading and writing?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So I very much a bookworm. And um, you know, it's funny because you look back at your history, your own personal history. Sometimes, you know, you go back and like, oh, here's my kindergarten transcripts. But looking at that in my kindergarten transcript, I was a very poor reader, as it turned out. And so the tar teachers told my dad, you need to work with her and start reading to her. And that's where my love of reading began. I specifically remember my dad taking me and my two little brothers, and we had story night every night. And I didn't know that was the reason why. I was just like, cool, story night. And so my brothers loved this one particular story. So my dad read that particular story over and over again, and I didn't mind it, but you know, it was just my third favorite. He would read others too. But I had that story memorized, and so basically I taught myself to read based on having that story memorized, and that would sound things out. But that is really where my love of reading and eventually writing began. It was with that that time with my dad reading to us.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I love that because so I I feel like some kids got that and and learned to enjoy reading at an early age, and then there were other kids, you know, my parents read to me, but it's reading wasn't something that I really enjoyed until later in life. Um, I wish I would have enjoyed it younger, and that's really what Books for Guys is about. Is I'm trying to encourage more reading at a younger age. Um, and to do that, I'm I'm encouraging that that young kids read things they're interested in. Yes and not things that they're forced to read. Obviously, there's that section you just gotta go through, you're gonna be told to read some things and you gotta do it. But if you read something you're interested in, just how that can unlock that curiosity, you know, piece of the brain, and you can go down, you know, a personal development journey or just your interest. It just changes the game when it comes to reading. Um but it's so cool that you grabbed onto that early and became a bookworm and then a writer, and and now I'm sure it's a dream, I'm sure it's a dream come true for you to be a published author now. Like, how cool is that to to look at and say?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah, it really is extremely cool. Um, and for me especially because one of my aunts was a poet. And so to have that in the family kind of lineage, um, and to be able to go, okay, yes, I'm I fit in now. I I'm with the others in the family who are published, you know, authors in one wit form or another. Um it is funny because for a lot of years I did not, you know, look at writing and being published, never considered it a possibility, but there just came a point where like I have a story to tell and I'm gonna tell it. And even if I have to publish it myself, I am gonna tell the story. So that was nice.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I love that. Do you have uh ideas you're toying with for future future books?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

I do. There's one I'm working on right now, and it's funny because it it was a co simple conversation that probably would have been meaningless at any other time in my life. But I was at the grocery store, and as I was checking out, the lady almost forgot to um, I had made an impulse purchase of a ch a chocolate bar, and she almost forgot to ring it up and caught herself, and you know, we made a joke about it. I'm like, well, I'd have to call you Wonka. And she's like, No, I think I'd want to be called something else. And we laughed. But I left at this grocery store thinking about that and thinking about that. I'm like, what if there was someone like from an alternate universe or whatever where chocolate is abundant and they have this recipe and whatever, and somehow she ends up over here and she's trapped and she has to like go by a uh, you know, a false identity, and but she so enjoys the chocolate and wants to give that gift to others, but that chocolate starts being traded as like on a black market because it's so good. And so there's collectors out there, and it be kind of becomes its own um commodity, its own like currency. So I'm working on this thought process for this. I'm calling it Zara's chocolate.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Okay. Oh man, you I mean, Zoe, this would be really cool. I the your stories seem like something that could be movies, uh, you know, they just seem I know, yeah, but uh, who knows? You never know. Someone picks up the book and and says, hey, this is amazing. And because I mean your storylines are so again, they're so creative, but but they're also something that you could see. Like the way you just explained that to me, I'm like, oh, this sounds awesome! Like, yeah, let's let me watch the movie, let me read the book. Like, this sounds so interesting. So, and I I think that has to do with you too, your passion behind it and your excitement. You can just you can see it, you can hear it and feel it from you on just like how again, how excited you are to write this and put the story out there and create it and and just make it exciting. And so that thing that's uh You know, some authors are very introverted. They, you know, they're they like what they do, but they don't really express it uh with the same energy that you do. But I and I think that makes a difference on how many people are interested in reading a book. Or, you know, I think people that watch this or listen to this, they may be in tune, they're inclined to pick up your book because they hear the excitement. They're like, hey, this sounds exciting. Let me give it a try. So uh but that's just a testament to you and your personality, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah. Well, Zoe, just a couple more questions for you. Um, you're you again, you work a full-time job. So being an author is not something you do full-time, it's something you've got to find extra hours in the day and in the year to do. What what is your process there? Are you do you have like times of the day, morning and night that you commit to trying to get words on pages? Is it more of, hey, when I have time, this week I can do more, this week not so much? Just what does that balance look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Wish I could say I was disciplined enough that I had a designated time. You know, I have every reason in the world why I should have a designated time and schedule, but I am not that person. I am, I I think of myself as like an ADD kind of writer. You know, I have an idea and I, you know, write it down and then I come back to it and work on it for a little bit and then oh, here's this other idea. Well, let me go over here. You know, it's like squirrel. So I I bounce between multiple stories and one of them eventually gets finished. It's like, okay, this one gets published. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

No, that's great. But I but I think that just again, that kind of says like who you are. You're you're excited, creative, like whatever's grabbing your attention at the time, like that's where you're pouring your heart into and and writing. I get I I don't know what that's like. I I can I can sit down and type for a little bit, but like to put thousands of words on a page in a story, it does take some discipline in there. Even though you are, you know, kind of sporadic sometimes in your thinking, you still have a lot of discipline built up in that to finish what you've started and to add to it. I mean, you've got a two-book series and a pre a prequel, you know, it's gonna be a three-part. Um, there's a lot of discipline in there as well. So that's uh, no, it's just interesting. But Zoe, one more question for you. And you kind of hinted at it earlier, you bookworm. So you've read a lot of books, and uh, I love to ask people this question because you could answer it differently based off where you're at in your life, or you may have answered this differently if I had asked you a year ago. But I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what is a book or two that you love to recommend to other people?

SPEAKER_00 24:45

You know, I have such a variety of types of books that I like. And there are books I will I I don't have time to sit and truly read the way I like to read, but sometimes I do. Um most of the time these days it's audible and I listen to books, and I listen to them over and over and over again, especially if I like the story. Um I will forever love the Count of Monte Cristo, always will recommend it. I mean, that's just like one of the best books ever written in my mind. Um and it helped me through some harder times in my life because I mean we all have moments in our life where we feel like we are faced with injustice, and you know what, Count of Monte Cristo is the your best friend during that time.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah. No, that's a great recommendation. You're the first person to recommend it, but it's a great and fantastic book and story. And I'm glad you said what you said because that's another benefit to reading. There's whatever you're going through, whatever you're experiencing in life, there are books out there that you can just kind of immerse yourself in and find some joy. Um, and or, you know, if someone else is maybe going through a similar struggle, you know, people have written about it. Um, you know, and you're if you're trying to do something, like people have done it before you, so you can learn quicker, you know, by reading what they did. And so there's just so many benefits to books. Um, but I love that you said that. Like you found joy in reading this book, or you found some some common ground of what you were experiencing in life. And there's just not a lot of things out there that you can do the same thing with. And so uh again, it just goes back to the importance of of reading and and enjoying and getting lost, getting lost in a book or an audiobook, same thing, you know, nowadays. So, but yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. No, I love it. Well, Zoe, I this has been fantastic. I love conversations like this, especially with people like yourself who who you can just again see the passion and and your energy behind the work that you have. And so very excited to spotlight your books on our website. And uh, I can't wait to share this episode because I I have people that text me and they'll be like, man, that was awesome! Like that brought so much joy and excitement. I needed some just you know, excitement and energetic conversation to get you know home from work or whatever. And I think this type of conversation is one of those that I think people will like, and uh hopefully it leads to them picking up your books as well and uh and supporting you as an author. And now that we've met, I can't wait to see all your your future work too. I mean, you're talking about Zara's chocolate. Um, I'll be waiting for that one to come out now too, and we'll be happy to spotlight it. But Zoe, keep doing what you're doing, keep being excited about it. I think it's very awesome, uh, very contagious, and uh just just keep doing it. It's very cool to see you and the work you're putting out there, and and we're happy to support you.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

I appreciate that. Kind of leave one last thought for your audience.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

My favorite saying found on vacation in in the Caribbean one day when things don't go right, go left.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Thank you.