The Explorer's Gene: Alex Hutchinson on Endurance, Curiosity, Mental Limits, and Unlocking Human Potential

What if your greatest limits aren't physical, but the stories your mind tells you?

In this episode of Books4Guys, Chris sits down with award-winning journalist, endurance expert, and New York Times bestselling author Alex Hutchinson to discuss human performance, endurance, curiosity, exploration, mindset, and the ideas behind his books Endure and The Explorer's Gene. Drawing on his unique background as both a physicist and journalist, Alex explains how studying the science of performance led him to one of the most fascinating discoveries in sports psychology: our minds often determine our limits long before our bodies do. 

Throughout the conversation, Alex shares lessons from decades of interviewing world-renowned scientists, elite athletes, and researchers studying endurance, motivation, and human behavior. Chris and Alex explore the relationship between the mind and body, why positive self-talk can dramatically improve performance, and how curiosity may be one of humanity's greatest evolutionary advantages. They also discuss why people are naturally driven to explore the unknown, embrace new challenges, and continually seek growth—even after achieving major goals. 

The discussion also covers resilience, motivation, sports psychology, lifelong learning, entrepreneurship, parenting, career transitions, and the importance of enjoying the journey rather than constantly chasing the next milestone. Whether you're an athlete, entrepreneur, leader, or simply someone looking to push beyond self-imposed limitations, this episode offers practical insights into developing greater mental toughness, embracing curiosity, and unlocking more of your potential. 

Key Discussion Topics

•  The science behind Endure and why the mind often determines physical limits 
•  The inspiration behind The Explorer's Gene
•  How positive self-talk influences performance and resilience 
•  Why curiosity is hardwired into human nature 
•  The relationship between endurance, mindset, and motivation 
•  Career transitions, taking risks, and betting on yourself 
•  Why success alone doesn't create lasting fulfillment 
•  Learning to enjoy the process instead of chasing the destination 
•  Parenting, growth mindset, and embracing failure as part of learning 
•  Book recommendations including The Sports Gene and Inside the Box by David Epstein 

Executive Development Parter: https://www.standardpursuit.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Before we jump into today's episode, I want to thank our executive development partner, Standard Pursuit. Founded by Hunter Didrickson, Standard Pursuit is a coaching community built for founders, entrepreneurs, and high performers who are ready to step into the next version of themselves. Through one-on-one coaching and the Standard Training Club, Hunter helps people strengthen both their physical and mental operating systems so they can think more clearly, lead more effectively, and perform at a higher level. One of the things I appreciate most about what Hunter is building is that he understands success isn't just about business. It's about health, mindset, discipline, leadership, and becoming the type of person capable of achieving the goals you set for yourself. If you're looking to sharpen your performance, improve your habits, and operate at a higher level, both personally and professionally, I encourage you to check out StandardPursuit at standardpursuit.com. Now let's get to today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

And Wendy, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do. She's I I really like her stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, super cool. Yeah, well, I mean, it kind of her, not like what you write about, but like just her jumping into like the uh obstacle course stuff. Yeah, I could see where there's some correlation.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, yeah. Reading that was like, I I mean, yeah, she's she's living all the stuff that I'm writing about, like but exploring antibutt endurance.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, yeah. That's dude, that's what a small world. And it's been so cool. Like, I I'll have someone on here and then they'll be like, oh, I know so and so. And I'm just like, oh wow, I talked to them like a month ago. And uh it's I mean, you probably see it all the time too in in journalism and and just stories. You probably get connected to so many people. And um this man, this stuff's just awesome. But uh that's great, man. Yeah. Well, Alex, dude, so good to have you on the Books for Guys podcast. Really appreciate you taking the time to come on. As you know, I'm a former athlete, I love sports. Um, and my wife just had me training for a half marathon with her, you know. And I I'm I'm not a runner like you, but I did enjoy the training aspect of it. It was something new and challenging for me, uh, which is a little bit of kind of the topic you ride on, um, and just the the limitations that humans sometimes set on themselves and uh don't realize their potential. Um, but man, for those, for those who don't know you, Alex, obviously I'm I want to mention the the two books that I've got spotlighted, and that's Endure and The Explorer's Gene is your latest one. And uh, but man, talk a little bit about just yourself, how you grew up, your interest in running, and then just really where your interest, I don't know, where it led you to like really dive in and learn more about like the human aspect of performance and just how you I don't know, just your interest in putting your work together.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Sure. Well, first of all, Chris, thanks for having me. It's it's cool. I love what you're doing with these with these conversations, and I'm I'm happy to be on it. I will try not to take the entire podcast telling my life story. It's like it's all you're doing a lot, old time is yours. Yeah. No, I so I I I'm a I'm a runner. Uh like I grew up as a kid just running with something I did, and so that's kind of the a key part of has always been a key part of my identity, running track in high school and then college. Um professionally, I actually started out as a physicist. I studied physics in university, worked as a scientist in my 20s, and kind of had a uh I don't know if it's a eureka moment or whatever, in my late 20s. I was like, this isn't what I want to do. I want to do something else. I want to do something that allows me to explore the world in a in a different way, do different stuff, talk to different people. So I when I was 28, I headed back and did a journalism degree and uh didn't really know what to make of that. I, you know, I did a year after that as a general assignment reporter and newspaper covering, you know, car crashes and dog fashion shows and things like that. And then I went freelance. This is, I guess, 20 years ago, and I was just willing to write about anything that would pay the bills. So I did a lot of a lot of different things. But over time I started to put together those two previous parts of my life, which is the running, and I was still running, you know, as it was, it's it's I'm a lifelong runner. And science, I had a trap background in science, and I thought I'd like to know more about the science of running and training and stuff like that. Even because even though when I was competing for a long time, I I didn't really know the what it wasn't very accessible back then. Like I'm an old guy, this is like we're talking in the 90s. It was very hard to find out about what does research say about stretching or lactic acid or things like that. So I I started to uh look into this and realize that, oh, wait, there's like a whole bunch of scientists around the world who are studying these exact questions that I've been wondering about. So I started trying to write about that. And uh it sort of not necessarily intentionally, it became my thing. It became my niche, is that I really enjoyed talking to scientists, trying to understand uh how the body works, how the mind works, how it all fits together. And and that's kind of what I've been doing ever since.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah. What are some things? Because Alex, I looked a little bit into this and just like some of the things you talk about with like sleep, oxygen, just all these different factors that your body, like whatever different scenarios, different timing of the day, like all these things have a factor in like peak performance. But what were some things when you were really diving in and talking with scientists and and and studying the body? What were some of the most, I guess, unique findings that you came across where you were like, never thought about this, makes total sense. And then, like, maybe you applied some of that too, just with your personal life and running.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So, yeah, there's a couple two different categories. Let me answer that in two ways. The the sort of most important insight that I had was, or or that I came across in the science was that the the relationship between mind and body. So, my first like endure, the book endure is really if you had to boil that book down to a couple sentences, it would be that when you reach your physical limits, when you're at that point where you're like, I cannot move my legs anymore, that is that point is chosen more by your mind than by your body. If you change this, change the context, all of a sudden you'll find, oh, I can't, you know, a bear jumps out from behind a tree and you realize, oh, I can speed up, or you turn the corner and see the end of your half marathon and realize, oh, I'm not dead. I can, I can, I can sprint the last straight away. And so there's a bunch of science that goes into that. And it and that really, that's a place where the science really meets the the personal experience of if you've run a half marathon, if you've trained as a runner, if you've done physical, if you've done any sort of sports, you've experienced this thing where um limits change when you with your perspecti with your context and your perspective. So anyway, that was that's the kind of big big thing that I found most interesting. But on route to that, there's all sorts of like uh aha moments. And I think the one that stands out to me is um I when I was researching like oxygen, and well, you know, I feel like I'm out of breath when I'm running. Uh is it am I really running out of oxygen? Well, how do I find that out? Let's talk to people who like hold their breath. Let's talk to free drivers, free divers. And I there was this whole world that I had no idea about that people are holding their breath with no, no like inhaling oxygen or anything. Just, you know, the world record for breath holding is like 11 minutes and 40 seconds. Crazy. And that's just like, oh, this is different than that. This is this is like a whole different, this isn't like someone's just good at it. It's this, they've just they've unlocked a whole different world. So I I loved, I love moments like that into in in in research.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah. And I saw like one of the things uh this stuck with me. We were talking about endure, and it was like the ability to continue forward when everything is telling you to stop. And I was like, dude, yes. Because you hear from coaches like, you're not tired, you can do more, you can do more, and you're like, can I do more?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Um, and you can. What what I love is uh study, you know, and coaches do this in real life, but scientists do it too, basically lying to their athletes or their other subjects, tricking them, is you know, saying, like, so the co the the what one of my real mentors in in running journalism is a guy named Ambi Burfoot, who was uh he was the 1968 Boston Marathon champion, and then he was the editor of Runner's World, and he's a guy who wrote a lot about the science of running. And at one point he he wrote something based on when he was writing about science, saying, the single best workout you can do as a runner is you do five times a mile as hard as you can with, let's say, two minutes break. And when you finish the fifth one and you're lying in the grass, just sort of totally spent, the coach comes over and says, do another one. And you say, I can't. You told me to do five. I gave everything. And the coach says, Do it anyway, just see what you can do. Uh and you get up and you find out that maybe you can't do it quite as fast as the fifth one, but maybe you can, or or at the very least, you're close to it. And you finish that sixth one and you're like, oh so it was all an illusion when I thought I was cooked, when I thought I'd I'd I'd used all my energy. And that that's sort of to me, that's actually like the fundamental insight that a whole bunch of training is designed to do. Like, of course, it's designed to make you stronger, to you know, make your heart process oxygen or whatever, like all this stuff. But it's also designed to teach you that you can do more than you you kind of feel you can.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah. Man, I love all this because you can you can translate this to like even not being an athlete or performing physically, like I was talking to someone about this the other day. Like you get overwhelmed with life, but once you like tackle that, maybe that's becoming a new dad and balancing a job, but like you look back 612 months, you're and you're balancing it all and you're doing even more, and like your ability to take on more is always there. And and you're in destination, that's always moving too. You get you accomplish something, and then then you know you're trying to do more and more and more. And so that's same thing, athletes or or just whatever you're trying to do. It all sounds good. Obviously, like we know we can do more than what our mind tells us, but what is the key that you discovered in actually unlocking the ability to keep going instead of stopping?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, that's where the that's where the rubber hits the road, right? It's like you have more. I don't know how to get it, but I know there is more. Yeah. Um, so look, first of all, I'll say uh I don't have like magic answers here. I uh you know, I I go out and run, I still race, I'll go out and run a 5K and I'll get to the 4K, and I'm like, come on, uh you know, keep digging, and then I'll slow down and then I'll get to the finish line and start sprinting. I was like, oh man, I did have more energy and I didn't get it. So I I still like there's there's no like rainbow here where I just figure figure everything out. But to me, and and I will say, in in writing into your I spent a lot of time like trying to figure out is there is there a shortcut, right? Can you can you uh like can you use electric brain stimulation? This was big like seven or eight years ago. Uh there was this company called uh Halo Neuroscience that was making these headphones that was basically is that it shock your brain. And and uh even like the Golden State Warriors were trying them out, like they they but then they've kind of the short answer, that stuff didn't uh it some of it might have some truth to the science, but it's not that's not the way, that's not a practical thing in real life. To me, the the the way or the the the thing to think about is um your internal diet monologue, what you what the voice, what the voice in your head is saying. And so this is basically sports psychology 101. Although, like when I was an athlete, like we had sports psychologists working with our college team and we would just be like, oh, get out of our face. Like we, you know, we're we're not worried about this mumbo jumbo, we just want to train hard. But I've now come to believe and have seen studies that support it, although it's very hard to study sports psychology. It's very hard to give like a placebo-controlled trial of self-talk. But the the to cut to the chase, if you're out there in a half marathon, you can get to the halfway point and it feels really hard. And if you're if the voice in your head, if you're telling yourself, oh man, this is I set out too fast and I didn't train enough, uh, I don't think I'm gonna be able to maintain this pace, you know. This guy in the monkey costume is gonna pass me and everyone's gonna pass me. Uh this guy with the triple stroller is gonna pass me. I just, I I'm just not good enough. I I can't, I didn't prepare enough. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, like for sure. Yeah, you because I I mean the fundamental reason is you you you make your decision on how fast to go based on how it feels how it how it feels, how you're telling yourself. Like there's no there's no speedometer in your in your body. You all you what you have, the speedometer in your head is your per sense of perceived effort. You decide whether to speed up based on how hard it's feeling at that moment in time, uh, which is why if you're halfway through a half marathon and a lion jumps out from behind a tree, you you can sprint. It's not that you're maxed out halfway, it's that it feels too hard for where you are. So if you're telling yourself this is really hard and you suck, then you're increasing that sense of effort. And so it's gonna convince you to slow down. And if on the other hand, if you're telling yourself, this is hard, but this is what I trained for, everyone around me is feeling the same. I know I've prepared for this moment, I know I can do it. Then the exact same signals coming from your body, the exact same feelings get interpreted differently by your brain. Instead of instead of being like a panic button, I gotta slow down, it's just like this is information. I know it's getting hard, so I I gotta be careful, I can't speed up, uh, but I need to keep this pace, but I can do it. So all of which is to say like motivational self-talk is the is the the word for it in sports psychology. And it's one of those things that sounds so simple that it doesn't sound like it's just like, oh, but that's all you have to do is say I can do it. And it's like, well, it's it's not that simple. You have to like internalize it, you have to practice it, you have to uh figure out the situations, figure out the words that have meaning to you because the words that someone else says to themselves, just you know, you read a famous athlete, you read their map, you hear their mantra, and you're like, Oh, that's stupid. That's not gonna work for you if that's a reaction. You have to find something that pushes your buttons. Yeah. But uh, if I had a time machine, that you know, that's what I would go back to you know to when I was, you know, in college. That's what I would be trying to work on a little more.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah. It's incredible how powerful the mind is. And I know you said like you there is no shortcut, but that's kind of a shortcut. If you can figure out how to practice self-talk, self-positivity, self-confidence, and and just to keep yourself moving forward, that is the key, it seems, to being able to do that instead of consistently just saying you're tired and then having negative. When you were saying those comments, actually, I was like hearing them in my head. It was actually like bringing me down, and I'm not even doing anything. But you know, like those type of comments can have such a negative impact on your body. And like I was feeling it just from you saying it. I was like, man, I I hate that talk. I hate those words.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Well, I'll I'll tell you a funny story that there's a there was there was a really good study on motivational self-talk that showed it could enhance performance in cyclists, and it was one of the ones that kind of changed my mind. It's like, okay, this is real science. This isn't just like new age feel-good stuff. And it was a pretty small study. I think it had 10 subjects. And I wrote about it. And a few years later, at a uh at an event, I met I ran into the scientist who had done that study. And he was like, I'll tell you, in that study, of the 10 cyclists in the study, nine of them got better when we taught them motivational self-talk, and one didn't. And he just had just such relentlessly negative self-talk. He just couldn't get out of his head. He was always telling himself, you're just not good enough, you're worthless, you're terrible. And so he saw the results of the study and he was like, Well, I can't start using positive self-talk, but you have convinced me that the self-talk is so important that my negative self-talk is like a weapon. So I'm gonna use it against other people. So he was a mountain biker, and so he would say, he said, he started if he was like going up a hill a long hill and starting to feel terrible, he couldn't tell himself I'm the I I'm gonna do well. He he wasn't good at positive self-talk. So he would just start talking to the other cyclists saying, You look terrible. You're gonna, you know, yeah, you can't keep this up. Look how far this hill is. So he was he was weaponizing his negative self-talk, which is I don't know if that's very sportsman-like, but it was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

I was about to say, what a jerk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Obviously, this guy clearly had issues given that he couldn't could not get the positive self-talk going. He's trying to bring everybody down. Credit for originality for figuring out how to turn his weakness into a strength.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, that's cool. I was actually, do you know who Charlie Rocket is? I don't think I do. No. So he's a you have to look him up, but he I'll share him with you when we get off this podcast. He's a he's an interesting guy, but he actually uh set out to like become a Nike athlete, wasn't an athlete. Then he set out to do an Iron Man, but and he has just this he's probably the most, the best person I've ever heard heard talk about like self-positive talk and motivation and filling himself up with just positive things and he'll just go accomplish anything. And one of them was like to do an Iron Man within a certain amount of months and lose weight and do all this stuff, and he like tricked his mind instead of saying, like, you know, obviously this marathon's gonna be hard, he just started saying, like, this is gonna be easy, this is gonna be easy. So every day he was training, he was just like, Hey, I did that yesterday, today's easy. Like, so he just constantly just told himself, this is gonna be easy, and he would just do it. And I was like, Okay, so I and actually I started doing that too as things because I was like, Oh, you know, my wife's personal trainer, she's like, We're gonna do this today. And instead of being like, Oh, this is kind of annoying, I'd be like, you know, easy, let's go knock it out. And it just, man, it just changes your energy, and it's so it's so cool to experience it. So I really like that you have written about it for people that maybe don't get to hear it from other people, or you know, maybe they pick your book up and kind of learn it that way. I just think that's such an important message, it's like that positivity uh piece to it.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And I think it's it's it's worth adding, you know, we we were saying, yeah, this is a shortcut, but it's not, it's not, you can't just, you know, click on the internet and buy it. Yeah, it it does it like you may find that you tell yourself this is gonna be easy, and then you quickly discover it's not, and it's hard to maintain that. It takes practice. It takes like you you you it takes sort of commitment to understand, yeah, this is no, no, I need to keep working on this, I need to be more positive. I need to, you know, you and there's kind of a fake it till you make it aspect where the the first when you first start telling you yourself this, you may not believe it deep down, but keep trying, keep trying. Don't don't expect it to work instantly, but just keep aspiring to be positive and to be to to to believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah, I love that. Switching topics over to your other book, The Explorers Gene, because it's a little bit different. And I like the fact of it, you know, just being curious and and taking paths less traveled. And just I guess what transitioned you to kind of start looking more into that and and studying that approach within like our you know, human DNA.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, the the there's kind of two two two answers to that question, too. One is like I've always loved exploring like my my vacations. I love getting into the wilderness, whether it's backpacking or canoeing or just getting as far away as possible. And and you know, those vacations are often quite hard. And and it's always been a puzzle to me and my friends like, why do you want to do this stuff? Like, why and I couldn't, I don't have a good answer. Like, I I would be like, I don't know, I just love getting out in the wilderness. So why do I want to explore all the time? And the other was a kind of a very different motivation, which was thinking about career directions and stuff. So after Endure came out, Endure came out in 2018, and it and it did really well. And and and so I kind of dreamed, best seller, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

I I didn't I didn't say that, but that's I'll say it.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

I'll say it every, I'll say it all the time. Very successful book. Made the New York Times list. So it was great. And it was kind of like all of a sudden I realized this dream I had of maybe I could be the science of endurance guy. I could make a career out of talking and writing about the science of endurance. It's like, I think it's here. I think I can do it. And then I was like, I'm not sure that's what I want because it's super interesting. But you know, if you've spent now I've spent 20 years in this in this field, there's only so many articles you can write about how to hydrate or like what what fuels you should take. Like science advances, but it doesn't advance that fast. And so there's a point at which like every topic I think of writing about, I and I was feeling this after and dear, it's like, uh there's a little bit of new stuff, but it's like I've kind of already said what I have to say. So maybe I want to write about something else. And and then another part, another, you know, the other voice in my head would be like, You idiot, why like why you've you've worked so hard to have this opportunity to write about topics that you are so interested in and you love, why would you want to do something else? And that became a question in my head is like, why do I have this call to try and do something different to go out and sort of plunge into the unknown? And so those two aspects coming together, like career, why why am I drawn to do something different? And in my vacations, why do I want to get in the wilderness? And I started to wonder like, are we wired to always want to be seeing what's around the next corner? And if is that good or bad? Is it like, is this a productive thing that keeps us advancing and doing new things? Or is this a a bad thing that keeps us from ever being satisfied from where we are? Um, and how do you balance that? How do you balance the desire to do new things with the the sort of the ability to be pleas to settle down and say, hey, this is what I wanted? So that's that's sort of a long answer, but that's the that's basically where the where the book started.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

That's such a fine line because I've heard discussions on that too of like, how do you find the balance of being content, but also like striving to be better? And even even like in business, like uh we have that gene because we can make better products and we we should make better products and we should make better services and advance health. And so there's all these reasons why we should continue to go forward, but not to the detriment of like not being happy where you're at. But there is such that like fine being content while also continuing to advance. And I'm sure as like you looked into that, there's probably I mean, what what were some unique things you found with people? Because I I'm just thinking like I know people who they don't ever seem happy because they they never have enough. They always need something else. I'm like, man, I would be so happy. Like, I'm happy now. I'd be like super happy if I had what you had. But like, what did you discover as you were looking more deeply into this?

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, I mean, I it was an opportunity to really dig into how we're wired. So that you know, there's sort of some biology that like the the symbiology. That affects how humans migrated around the globe. There's a gene that emerged about 50,000 years ago. And if you look at modern populations, the farther that group migrated from their origins in Africa and the Near East, the higher the proportion of that population has this gene that basically affects dopamine processing. It it affects how big of a sort of jolt you get from exper being surprised. And so it's like, wow, it that like affected the history of our species. And we're still like people are different. People have different appetites for surprise and tolerances for uncertainty. But I think the the key thing that I came away with is that actually just the fundamental way our brains are wired is that we uh like the way uh not just our brains, but the way any living thing is wired. What are what is a brain for? A brain is to learn about the world to be able to predict it so that you don't die. And and in order to predict the world, you have to be seeking out areas of uncertainty and resolving them. So you have to be looking for the things you know least about. So there is it's kind of it's it's kind of reassuring to me. I'm I'm not like broken or anything. It's like, no, the less I know about something, the more I kind of want to know what you know, what's what is in that direction. And so that's yeah, that that's reassuring. But in terms of finding the right balance and stuff, like I in the end, there's the I I wish there was like an easy answer that's like do this, not that, and then you'll be happy. But I think there's a constant you have to live with that tension and kind of find a way to um to uh to to avoid what's called the the arrival fallacy, to avoid the feeling that if I could just get there, I would be happy. If I could do that, and and you know, we we can all do this with our with our own kind of lives and cast like I can look back and to when I was 20 or whatever, thinking like if I could only achieve this or make this much money uh in in a year or whatever, then I'm set. I don't need anything more than that. Then you get to that, you know, you blow by that point and you're like, I still need more, I still need more. And you're like, hang on, 10 years ago, I would have, you know, given my my left arm to just be in the position I am now. So if I can't enjoy this, I can't enjoy anything. I have to, I have to learn to enjoy this.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah. It kind of goes back to like just I mean, I guess it is kind of lineup, like you gotta learn to enjoy the process of it all and the journey. And like you can look at athletes that way, too. Tom Brady, like, great, loves winning, uh, loves the process even more because you want to try to do it again. Or I'm sure with you with running, you accomplished something and you're like, cool, that was great. I'm gonna train again and try to beat the time. Like there's always something you can chase, but also be like happy doing what you're doing throughout the process, too, which makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I actually think that's maybe one of the most valuable things sports did for me in my life. And you know, I like I I spent a lot of time devoting myself to sports. And what did I get out of it? Well, and run running is particularly good for this just because it's so simple. It's like you dream about running a certain time or making a team or you know, winning a medal. You run that time and it feels amazing because a dream has just come true. And like 18 minutes later, you're like, I think I can go faster. I think, yeah, yeah, I think I could like, oh man, next year I need to do this, or next race I need to do that. And and when that happens over and over again over the course of 10 years, you you realize, huh? Well, the last 100 times I've you know reached my time goal time goal, I've immediately reset my times. This kind of suggests to me that it doesn't matter how good I get, I could be, you know, Olympic silver medalist, and all I'd think about was, I think I could win gold and I could win. And in fact, there's studies showing that Olympic silver medalists are like the least happy people at the Olympics because they're all like, damn, I wish I'd come first. We in gold, and you're like, oh, I think I could have set a world record. You set a world record, and you think I could. So it's like almost nobody ever gets that point. And and so anyway, I think sports has really helped me. Like, let's say in my journalism career, you know, like I was saying before, endure did well. I I like I was like, I achieved this goal that I never thought I would achieve, but I already knew that's not gonna be like, okay, you know, dust off my hands. I'm I'm done here, I'm I'm out of here like George Costanza, I uh, you know, I'm going out on top. It's like, no, you you're always like, okay, what's next? What can I do when that's more than that? And like you said, it's like so enjoy the process. And it's like the world's greatest cliche, right? It you know, people say that and you're like, dude, that that's that's not deep at all. That's that but then you kind of go through this process of thinking about it and you realize, oh no, no, that is like that is the thing. That is that is the what it's all about is uh you know, learning to enjoy the game. And I don't know. I have I've so I have a Friday night pickup basketball game that I play with some guys, and it's been going on for years and years. And it's like it's that to me is that game is the pure distillation of getting that balance right because you know, pickup basketball games can get pretty chippy sometimes. People get worked up about fouls and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

They're awesome.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

This the this game, it's like it's friendly, everyone's chill, no one's uh you know, we're not like pushing each other around. But when the the when the game's on, we're we're like we're really trying to win. And and but the goal isn't winning, it's to have had a great game where we were like, man, I can't believe we were playing game to 15 and it went to 24 because it, you know, we could win by two. It's like that is what's fun is being in that struggle. And yes, we all like winning, but that that in in that game, and it's easy to say as a I'm 50 years old now, so it's not like I'm 18 thinking I'm gonna go to the NBA. I I I'm just like we're it's fun to be in that process of struggle.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah, yeah. The opportunity to compete. And I think AJ Brown's probably the most recent athlete to talk a little bit about this, like when the Eagles won the Super Bowl, and it was like less than three days later, he was like, So I finally realized this, like it was fun for like five minutes, and now like I don't really even care like what's next. And it was like such a a lot of people I think like saw that and it kind of clicked, but he's like one of the bigger athletes to actually say, like, yeah, this really didn't mean as much as I thought it would.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, and you know, lots of people could have predicted that. And it's like, you you want the the best way to learn that is to to to win everything and then discover does like you can you can tell people that's like it's easy for him to say because he won the Super Bowl. Yeah, yeah. You know, if he was languishing in in the CFL or whatever, maybe he'd be like, but no, I I I I agree. I remember and I remember some people were kind of even critical of him for saying that. It's like, you know, he's dampling. It's like, dude, no, he's he's he's stating a uh a pretty like uh fundamental truth that that uh that we I that I think we all kind of have to learn by experience. It's it it like well, like the the you know, enjoy the process and stuff. You it doesn't matter how many people times people tell it to you, you have to kind of feel it viscerally and and experience it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I agree. I mean, it's like teachers telling kids or parents telling kids to do something until you actually experience it. You don't really you you really don't appreciate what they're teaching you or what they're telling you. You just gotta go figure it out on your own.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

It's such a cliche. I I I can't resist saying this to my kids all the time. It's it's like, I know, I know. It's like when I was a kid, I didn't appreciate it. And my parents told me I would I, you know, I would look back and be glad that they made me do this. And uh trust me, someday you're gonna be glad that I'm making you do this. Uh I I wish you could see it now because it would make my life easier. But yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna have to live it yourself, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

You're looking forward to that day when when you're like, I told you so. Yeah, when they could call me up on the phone and say, Dad, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Thanks for all those responsibilities. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, the words, Dad, you were right, will will ring something special. Um, Alex, just a couple more questions for you. One being just, you know, obviously it is so cool to see just your interest and intrigue and going down different paths and really just like just pursuing what you are wanting to pursue and and putting some amazing work out there. What are you most proud of of just your your career and the transitions you've made to uh attack the topics you want to attack and learn about? Like just what are some things you're really proud of yourself about throughout your process of putting these books out there?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

I mean, uh yeah, that's a a great interesting question. I I when I look, look, I'm really proud of Indira and and I'm proud that I it took about 10 years to write. Like I was telling people that I was interviewing in 2009, it's like I'm writing a book about this, and and so I guess nine years from so I was patient and I did uh absolutely the best job I I could. And that it's uh it's it's hard to to create that space because you kind of want to be like, I just need to get this book out. So I'm proud of that, but but it I would say I'm kind of more proud of the original decision to leave physics uh and go to journalism when I was 28. I had worked pretty hard to carve out a a path that seemed that was kind of stable and looked like it could lead to a comfortable life and career, and I just thought this isn't quite what I wanted to do. And I while I was in physics still, I uh maybe I'm interested in writing, I'll try applying for some internships or writing some more freelance articles, and it didn't really work. And I eventually realized like I'm not gonna make it work unless I dive into the deep end with both feet, and you know, to the point where it's like I either make it work or I sink to the bottom of the pool. So that's why I I quit my job and I went back to to school full time. And that took, you know, I like as much as I say I like to explore, I don't have a lot of risk risk tolerance. I'm a very cautious person. And I look back and I'm like, I'm I can't believe I I had the kind of hot spa to to do that. So it's worked out really well. Uh, but um I'm I'm I'm proud of myself for having taken the chance and bet on myself and and to taken the taken the less obvious path.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yeah. It's pretty cool, man. I love I love people that that share that. I I heard a quote the other day, and he was like, Are you are you simply existing or are you living? Like life is so short, you know, and you can get caught up in just the same routine and not really living your potential or doing the things that can help maximize this one life you have. And so it's pretty cool to to see people make those jumps and those transitions and share those stories of like I was scared as crap, but you know, my back that but that's when you do like when people become most successful, when you put your back against the wall and you really have no other options but to succeed, um everyone seems to figure it out most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, I mean, look, it's peop things fail sometimes for sure. Uh but usually, you know, you're able to rewrite the story that that's not the end of the world, and you you pivot and you find another way of of of of doing it. So it's it's not that nothing ever goes wrong, but but in in a sense, like uh one of the things I try and teach my kids is like, it's okay to fail. Like, you know, if I I I I have a memory of the first time I tried downhill skiing um on a school trip, and I, you know, actually it was like a I guess a two or three day trip. And I remember at the end I was telling my aunt and uncle, it's like, the whole time I didn't fall. Like I I I must be really good. And my uncle's like, if you didn't fall, it sounds like you didn't challenge yourself. And, you know, I must have been like 10 years old at the time, and somehow that still stuck with me as a metaphor. You know, it's like if I didn't fall, I probably wasn't really trying to challenge myself. I was just playing it too safe.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah, I love that. Last question for you, Alex. And I ask everybody that comes on the podcast this question just from a book standpoint. Um, but I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book or two that you love to recommend to other people?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Let me go with uh let me go with a double header from David Epstein here. Um David Epstein wrote The Sports Gene in, I think it was 2013 or so. Uh to me, that's the best book about sports science that there is. And it and it's also a rigorous, like, it's not superficial. He really went into the complexities of of science. And so that really set my course uh in terms of what led to Endure. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I really want my book to be that serious and that you know, not superficial. So for a sports science book, I would I would recommend uh uh The Sports Gene, which and the segue there is that uh David Esteine has a new book out, I think it was like a month or two ago, called Inside the Box. And it's about how constraints uh are can help with for creativity and and things like that. And I found that book really interesting because as a freelancer, I've kind of gravitated to trying to be as free as possible. I don't want anyone telling me what to do. I'm I don't work for a newspaper or magazine where people can tell me, assign me a story. I take only the stories I want. And what I've kind of come to realize is actually sometimes it's good to be told what to do, to be given some constraints to say, I need you to do this, I need you to do it by that deadline. And then that forces you to do things that aren't the obvious, aren't just what you've been doing over and over again. So I I think for for people uh looking for a new way to think uh, you know, and a new way to think about challenges in their lives, inside the box by David Epstein is a great new new book to check out.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Cool. Those the both of those books are actually on my want-to-read list. So it's really cool that you brought those up. I need to get to them.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Bump them up the list. Move up.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I was about to say now they're fresh on my mind. I'll just I need to reorganize a little bit. But um, Alex, man, thank you so much for for doing this and and sharing just your your background experiences and just the things you're working on and your thoughts on it all. And man, can't wait to see, can't wait to see what else you you work on. Obviously, there I'm sure you've got other things you're chasing down now and and researching, and um, I'm sure that curiosity train is is still moving. And so, man, can't wait to see what all you continue to accomplish, man. Super proud and honored to spotlight your work and uh just keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Thanks, Chris. I really appreciate you having me on. It's been really fun to chat.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Absolutely. Thanks, Alex.